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- [00:00]
Bianca Murray
Did you know that your calendar age doesn't always match how old your body truly is? It's true. Your biological age, the age of your cells and organs is actually the number one predictor of your risk for serious diseases like heart disease, cancer, dementia and more. That's why learning your biological age can be truly life changing. And that's what the true age test from True Diagnostic helps you do. With just a simple at home test, you can uncover your true biological age and get personal personalize insights into your true biological age and take control of.
- [00:29]
Carly Waters
Your health like never before.
- [00:31]
Bianca Murray
No doctor's visits, no labs, just a quick finger prick from the comfort of your home. As you guys know, I care a lot about fitness and lifestyle because I do triathlons and it's really important for me to take care of my health. So here's the thing that really inspired me. Up to 90% of biological aging is driven by lifestyle. That means the way we eat, move, sleep and manage stress is a massive role in how fast or slow our bodies age. True Diagnostic just doesn't tell you your biological age. It gives you a personalized report of full, clear science back steps you can take to actually slow down aging and improve your health over time. I'm really excited to see the results and see what they have to say about my health because as I said, I do take it variously very seriously. The test itself is super easy. Just a quick painless finger prick. You send in your sample using a prepaid mailer and about two, three weeks you get detailed online reports with actionable insights that you can use. If you care about protecting your health and want to find out what your real age is, head over to TrueDiagnostic.com and use my code T Snotya to get 20% off your entire order or subscription. That's true. Tru Diagnostic.com and use T Snotya at checkout to get 20% off your future self will.
- [01:45]
Carly Waters
Thank you.
- [01:53]
Cece Lira
Hi there and welcome to our show, the shit no one tells you about writing. I'm Bianca Murray and I'm joined by Carly Waters and Cece Lira from PS Literary Agency. Hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of Books with Hooks. If you're watching us on YouTube, you already know that it's just Cece and Carly today. Just us. Because our fearless leader Bianca is getting ready for her book launch. By the time this airs, that will already have happened. So it's like we're time traveling, which is kind of fun. This is actually a great opportunity to remind everyone, go buy Bianca's book A Most Puzzling Murder or check it out from your favorite library. Please support Bianca as she makes this whole podcast happen and she won't say it herself. So so we will. We'll say it for her. Okay, Carly, do you want to kick us off by reading the first query letter?
- [02:46]
Carly Waters
Absolutely. And I will echo what Cece said, which is please support our lovely Bianca. As Cece said, you know, she is very humble, but it is also very hard to get on your own podcast and talk about your own book all of the time. And she's been doing such a great job of putting together incred incredible social content and her launch, which I hope a bunch of you will be at because we will see you. And again, this is coming out in the future so we will have already seen you, but we just, we're so proud of her and you know, she'll listen to this and be bashful, but we are. We are very proud of our Bianca. So A Most Puzzling Murder should be all on your shelves, in your audio library, in your ebook library, in all the places. And we look forward to hearing what you guys think about her great book. Okay, here I go. Dear Carly, Cece and Bianca, thank you for all you do for us writers. Your voices kept me company while I was plotting and drafting this book. I found my amazing writing group thanks to Bianca's beta reader matchup. Yay. I submitted an earlier version of this query to BooksWithooks in 2023. It didn't get selected, but I'd love to get your feedback on the current version. I've sent some queries and had a couple requests, but I think the letter could be improved before I query widely. Taking out this paragraph. The query is 372 words. I'm looking for representation for my 90,000 word debut. We were the Good Girls set in Finland and Barcelona. Given your interest in commercial women's fiction, I hope you might find this multi POV novel in which the feminist themes of Whisper Network meet the political ambitions of Rodham and the complex friend group dynamics of the new season of the White Lotus a good fit for your list. Thirteen years ago, three best friends spent a dizzying summer in Barcelona. It was supposed to be the perfect post high school getaway for aspiring photographer Annika, future political powerhouse Mina and party girl Sofia, Art, food, boys and a never ending fiesta by the Mediterranean Sea. Until an assault brought the group's simmering tensions to a boil. Now in their 30s, each is wrapped up in their problems. Annika is an up and coming Food blogger and mother of three whose husband is almost certainly having an affair. Mina is one of the youngest women in Finnish history to reach chair position in a major political party. But she struggles to hold on to power surrounded by the toxic men of her past. World traveler and comedian Safiya is estranged from her friends and still trying to get her life back on track after a decade of self destructive behavior. Here, when a journalist lets Mina in on a Scoop of the PM's Shady Quid Pro quo with the man who assaulted her friend all those years ago, the women reunite in Finland. Sophia devises a plan to take him down, but their nemesis is not happy to find them digging up the past. Now the women need to bring him to justice without revealing their own secrets and destroying the lives they've worked so hard to build since that wild summer 13 years ago. I'm a Finnish former political ghostwriter and standup comedian living in Buenos Aires where I studied international relations and journalism and stayed for the wine, sunshine and vibrant culture. This book was inspired by fierce female leaders like Finland's Sana Marin, as well as my personal experiences of Barcelona men and working in politics. I've included the first five pages below. May I send you the full manuscript? Thank you for your time and consideration.
- [05:46]
Cece Lira
Thank you. Carly, what was the word count and what did you think of the query letter?
- [05:51]
Carly Waters
All right, so there was that opening paragraph and the author said if we take that out, it is 372 words. Without it taken out it is 473. So quite a number of words added in there. But we always appreciate the context in which you guys find this podcast. We appreciate it. Okay, so I really like this title. I think the comps are really strong. I think what I'm struggling with a little bit with this query is it's one of those things where I want to like this so bad. I want to like this dramatic story. These three women kind of talking about their dramatic past and what's going on in the present. And I'm coming to the word which gets used in publishing a lot and CC and I can talk about it is this word called familiar. Agents use this word sometimes. Familiar editors use the word familiar. Like what does it mean? I'm sure you guys who have been in the querying trenches or submission trenches might have heard this word before. So here's the reality, right? There are so many kind of novels, news stories, pop culture bits that kind of get thrown around in our culture that get revisited a lot. And so sometimes those stories are with fresh eyes Sometimes they're not, and sometimes the stories do have fresh eyes, but it's not being pitched to us in a way that really focuses on what is especially unique about the story. I think this pitch is relying a lot on the familiarities of, you know, if you like White Lotus, then you'll like this. Or, you know, Whisper Network, you'll like this. And I, again, I think the comps are strong, but I really don't fully understand what is overly unique about this particular story of women with past secrets trying to take down a man or a collection of men or something like that. Right. And especially multi pov, because each of these stories has to have their own stakes in the matter, and then we need a group stake as well. So I just didn't really feel like we were getting to all of those juicy pieces that actually set this book apart. So I'm going to use the word familiar. It felt familiar to me. Cece, I don't know if you want to expand on what familiar means to you, because as agents, we get this from editors sometimes.
- [07:44]
Cece Lira
It's a brilliant assessment. I fully agree. I wish this weren't the reality, because if it weren't, it would make our job so much easier. You know, if all we had to do was care about a subject matter and enjoy a type of story in order to sell a book, we would sell so many more books. And I don't just mean Carly and me. I mean, all agents out there, every literary agent out there would be like, yes, selling ten books a day. Hooray. It's so much fun. That's not the reality. Right. Like, we do need that really, like, fresh originality coming through while also letting us know where it would sit. Like, what the comps would be. You know, where it would sit on the shelves. So it's like, a really hard balance to strike. You mentioned that you thought that the query letter might need a little bit of tweaking. And I think that your instincts are correct. And I think that if you take Carly's note and really flesh out the originality here, it will help. I will add that at least to me and Carly. Please, I want to know what you think. But for me, it wasn't clear who was assaulted. Like, if it was the group, if it was one of them. I think because of the way it's framed with Sophia's journey last, I kind of imagined that it might be her, but, like, truth be told, I have no idea. And I wondered if that's something that we need to know. I wonder if you're keeping the story under wraps a little bit. Because if you didn't say this bit, what else aren't you saying? Which kind of leads into the previous note, right? Like, maybe there's originality here that you're not sharing with us because you're like, well, I have to. I have to withhold to keep people curious. But it's that dilemma. How much do you withhold? How much do you reveal? I think you need to reveal a little bit more here. Definitely reframe it. So, yeah, it's. It's hard. We empathize very much. Carly, was that clear to you? You can let us know that, and then you can let us know what the summary was as well.
- [09:37]
Carly Waters
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I think, you know, everything Cece said as well. I definitely think that I'm struggling with, you know, the what's at stake question. Right. Because it says Sophia devises a plan to take him down, but their nemesis is not happy to find them digging up the past. But, like, what's at stake? Is it the reputation? Is it their lives? Like, again, this takes it from, you know, drama to thriller. So it pitched as women's fiction, which worries me about what is at stake, because sometimes with women's fiction, what's at stake is something internal. Her pride. I can't have her pride at stake. Like, that's. That's not what we need. We need, like, dramatic, you know, plotty things to happen. So. Oh, and one note was just the bio. The bio is great. You clearly have an incredible background in terms of knowing the subject matter, you know, having traveled yourself, having a super interesting life, and I'm sure you've met a lot of interesting people along the way, so well done there. You seem like a very interesting person. Okay, so let's get into our summary. So we start with the POV of Annika. It is May 2019. She is in her kitchen. She clearly has some sort of, like, vlogger, YouTube, you know, Instagram setup going on where she is doing a live event with her followers. We are not told kind of where, how many, but some sort of, like, live Internet event where she is doing some baking, and the baking isn't going the way that she wants. She's trying to make focaccia, and it's not rising. And she's like, why am I trying to do this for the first time live on social media when it's not working? And then we hear somebody pull into the driveway, and she's like, holy crap. My family wasn't supposed to get home yet. You know, I'm trying to juggle this Instagram live, social media live situation, and it's not going well. My family's home early. I have young kids. They're going to be loud. All of this is kind of not working. And then we see the family through the protagonist's eyes, talking to the neighbor, who she clearly has a beef with or is jealous of, who also is involved in something with social media, seems always to be perfect, and that's obviously bothering her. And so she's, like, doing this social media live, clearly very agitated. So I know Cece's gonna have a lot to say what's going on externally versus what's going on internally, because there's a lot of interesting kind of dilemmas which. Which I think comes off really strong. So that's pretty much it. And then she reflects at the end on what would her friends do in this situation, because one of her friends showed up on the Instagram live, which adds to the drama of bringing these friends back together. And that is where we end.
- [12:00]
Cece Lira
Amazing. Thank you, Carly. And what did you think of the execution?
- [12:04]
Carly Waters
All right. I really liked it. I felt like I was reading a book, which is the highest compliment, really, because it takes me out of the. I'm reading a manuscript, a critique for my show, and da, da, da, da. This is a checklist item. When something isn't a checklist item, it's great. I'm like, oh, I'm in this world, and I'm absorbed in it. So I think what's going on is really interesting. I found it incredibly tense. Like, I can just imagine myself on an Instagram live and something not going right, and you're just frustrated. You're trying to be like, everything's like, we've done this on the show before. When it's like some sort of construction catastrophe happening outside of our houses while we're, like, trying to be on the show and everything's fine. So I know that, like, tension, and it can be really stressful. And I have recorded this show. If you guys listen to the early episodes of our show, My children were here because it was Covid, and you can hear them chattering in the background all the time. And I'm like, I'm trying to record this podcast, trying to focus on what I'm doing. So anyway, I could totally relate. I found it very stressful because, you know, anxiety, capital A anxiety was coming through here. Some questions that I had about this were the following. It seemed coincidental to me that the neighbor Also had some sort of like, social media star, online entrepreneur career. And she also seemed a little bit like caricature to me. The paragraph I'll read is kind of describing her. How did Janita even look like that every single day? How was her hair so perfectly wavy every time she stepped out with the twins in the morning? How was her makeup always impeccable with a pair of toddlers in the house? And how did she manage to walk in those yoga pants if they were pulled up all the way to her teeth? Didn't they give her a rash? That did not feel as fresh to me as it could. Because this could be any woman. You know, you could be literally talking about a woman walking down the street. What is it specific specifically? I didn't really understand what specifically about Janita was wrapped up in this. You know, we've seen a lot of quote unquote, perfect moms with their yoga pants pushing their toddlers in a stroller. I don't know, I just didn't really understand why this was the way you chose to describe her or what we were learning about your neighbor through this description. So I didn't love that. I would reevaluate that. I just felt like the writing was so strong otherwise that that really stuck out to me as that would just need a rework just because of the strength of everything else. So I was totally taken with thought. It was really interesting. And I liked at the end how you brought it back to the friends for this sample of, you know, what would my former friends have thought in this situation? Yeah. Anyway, I thought it was pretty strong. Cece, what did you think?
- [14:23]
Cece Lira
I definitely echo the comment about it reading, like, a book, like, because it does. It reads like a published book. And this doesn't happen very often. Usually I can tell that I'm reading a draft. And this is an educational show, so it's totally fine. But it is a treat to be reading something that feels so polished. You did a really good job. I think that, you know, to the writer, this is very fun. The pace is great. It does feel more to me. Okay. This is a very CC specific thing, like the beginning of a show or a movie as opposed to the beginning of a book. But that's not because books can't begin like this. That's because I am the queen of I want depth, I want interiority, I want emotionality, I want psychological acuity. You know, it's 100% a me problem. And so I don't think you should listen to my note. I think you should be very confident in your writing and very happy with what you've done. If you are curious about the perspective of someone who, again, usually likes something that's a little bit more just different, I guess it's not more or less anything, but it's just different. The juxtaposition of having her, like, live with her husband, arriving with her kids, with seeing him, like, flirt with the neighbor or potentially flirt with the neighbor, that was too much information. There's three Cs to storytelling. It's curiosity, connection, and context. You were giving us all the context, like, all the information. I wasn't in doubt of anything. Right, like, because you were so clear. But I felt like because of the overload of information, I could have used with more connection and more curiosity, especially about Sophia. You know, you did a great job of saying, Sophia would have laughed at that. And suddenly her absence was a stab between the ribs. Like, that was great. That was so great. Like Carly said, you brought it all together, right? Like, all these things happening. You gave it the baked feel of a quiche that I'm always talking about. It's. It's really hard to pull this off. It looks easy when you're reading it, but it's really hard to do. I do think that it was just a lot. So I don't know if. Especially because of the query letter, like, I'm almost wondering if this story doesn't need. And I never thought I'd say this, a prologue, like, to add that layer of mystery. Right. Because if we are going to go on an investigation of this man, I almost wonder if we don't need a picture prologue to frame the mystery element of this. Although I don't know. I don't know if mystery is such a huge deal in your story because you are pitching it as women's fiction. So maybe I'm trying to make it into something that it's not. I don't know. I very much wish you were on the show with us because I wanted to ask you, like, these questions, like, how much is the mystery? How much is a suspense? Just so we could know. But you did a really good job, and you should be very proud.
- [16:56]
Carly Waters
Thank you. To this author. All right, I'm gonna throw it to CeCe now for her to do her query.
- [17:01]
Cece Lira
Okay, before we do that, let's hear from our sponsors. Dear Cece, Bianca and Carly, I'm so grateful to have found the shit no one tells you about writing and the beta group matchup. Both have become invaluable parts of my writing routine and have improved my novel immensely. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Word count from here 420 due to your interest in dysfunctional families, morally ambiguous protagonists and settings that double as character, I'm seeking representation for my work of book club fiction. The Fire pit complete at 82,000 words through dual points of view, it explores what happens when a grandmother and granddaughter go from estranged to entangled. The Fire Pit narrates present day impacts of generational trauma within a strong summer home setting, as in the Paper palace by Miranda Cowley Heller, and has main characters in a similar emotional stage despite their age gap, as in the 100 Years of Lenny and Margot by Marianne Cronin. Spreading her husband's ashes three years after he died is the last instruction Loretta Brenner will ever need to follow from Elliot, the man who dominated her life for 50 years. She's relieved to finally gather her family at the island's camp they've gone to for generations, until her estranged granddaughter Josephine shows up unannounced. Josephine can no longer delay adulthood with international travel. It's time to say yes to the woman she loves and find a career. But she can't move past the transient lifestyle her mother raised her in. So Josephine comes to the only place that's ever felt like home, hoping to learn from the legacy of her grandparents relationship. When she discovers Loretta is secretly planning to sell the camp, Josephine vows to stay and stop her, even if it risks her romantic relationship. Loretta agrees, hoping to keep Josephine quiet so she can finally escape the burden of the camp and everything it represents. Having gone from estranged to entangled, Loretta and Josephine are surprised at how much they enjoy being together. However, when Josephine betrays Loretta and the true extent of Eliot's abuse is revealed, Loretta and Josephine must decide if they can work together to reconcile their family's past in a way that allows each woman to move forward with her future. I've been a full with summer in.
- [19:24]
Carly Waters
Full swing and packing for different getaways and vacations, I feel that familiar pull to refresh my closet for all the different versions of myself I'm going to be this summer, but I'm trying not to waste money on pieces I'm only going to wear once or just for one season. It's best to get things that we can wear in as many ways as possible. And that's where Quince comes in. Their clothes are timeless, feel luxurious, look elevated, and the quality is way beyond what you'd expect for the price. It's the kind of wardrobe upgrade that just sticks. Think 100% European linen tops starting at $30. Washable silk dresses and skirts and soft cotton sweaters. Versatile warm weather pieces you'll reach for again and again. The best part? Everything with quints is half the cost of similar brands. By working directly with top artisans, cutting out the middlemen, Quince gives you luxury without the markup and Quince only works with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices and premium fabrics and finishes. I purchased the Mongolian Cashmere Tea in heather gray. So soft, so chic. The quality and price blew me away. I don't know why I would pay mall prices when I have quints and I've worn it in so many ways since I got it. I have a funky look where I pair it with leopard print shorts or I can go clean and classic with dress pants or a mini skirt or layer it with a white T shirt underneath for a Gen Z look. I highly recommend the versatility of their well made basics. I also grabbed a pair of blue kids swim trunks with sharks on them. Super cute. So if you're listening to this, we are in the south of France and my son is wearing them right now. Give your summer closet an upgrade with quince. Go to quince.com t s n o-t y a w for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com t s n o- t dash y dash a w to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com teessnotya this spring watching everything outside bloom, I'm also watching my kids blossom in their French Immersion program at school. It's amazing but also a big motivator for me, especially because we're headed to France next month. I want to be able to join in more. You know if you want to connect more with your kids language journey or maybe prep for your own adventure this season. Rosetta Stone helps build those skills Rosetta Stone is the trusted leader in language learning for over 30 years, offering an immersive and effective approach that helps you absorb and retain new language naturally on desktop and mobile wherever and whenever it fits your lifestyle. It is a trusted expert for 30 years with millions of users in 25 languages offered Spanish, French, Italian, German, Korean, Chinese, Japanese, Dutch, Arabic, Polish and so many more. There's fast language acquisition you can immerse in so many ways. No English translations. It's an intuitive process. And don't forget the speech Recognition True Accent feature. It gives you feedback on your pronunciation it's very convenient, flexible, learning anytime, anywhere, on the go with the mobile app or on your desktop at your schedule. And there's amazing value Lifetime membership for all 25 languages for any and all trips and language needs in your life. Lifetime access. So don't wait. Unlock your language learning potential. Now the shit about writing Listeners can grab Rosetta Stone's lifetime membership for 50% off. That's unlimited access to 25 language courses for life. Visit RosettaStone.com today to get started and claim your 50% off today. Don't miss out. Go to RosettaStone.com today and start learning today.
- [22:54]
Cece Lira
Time freelance writer for more than a decade working in journalism and content marketing. My writing in the Washington Post, Oprah Magazine, the Independent, Business Insider, and more has been read by millions. I live in rural New Hampshire, near the cabin where six generations of my family spent their summers, which inspired the Fire Pit. I was previously represented by Redacted at Redacted Literary Agency and amicably parted ways after a nonfiction project died on submission and my agent left the industry. My first five pages are below. Could I send you the full manuscript? Sincerely, Kelly Burch.
- [23:33]
Carly Waters
Thank you, Cece. And what did you think of that query letter?
- [23:37]
Cece Lira
So I need to start with the author paragraph, which I never do. I'm going like all over the place today. This is such an impressive author paragraph. Like, so impressive. Great job. We rarely see something with so many credentials. It's just really, really impressive. And it's amazing. So congratulations. Now I'm going to hop to the title, which, as you guys know, is not something I usually obsess about at all. I'm always like, who cares the title. Who cares? Give me the story. I don't think this title is great for your story because I read the Fire Pit and I'm like, I don't like it. Didn't give me those vibes, you know, like the summer campy vibe, the intergenerational trauma vibe. Like, it didn't feel like a dual point of view. Grandmother, granddaughter, story. And I never thought I'd say this. I'm always like, so impressed when Carly talks about titles, but I'm like, doesn't really matter to me. I'm fine. And I think this is contagious. Maybe I think that now I care about titles, too.
- [24:30]
Carly Waters
It's something you have to care about. I mean, it's part of the brand. I mean, I think personally I'll just jump in really quick and Cece can hop back to it. But it sounds like a thriller to Me. It's like the fire pit. I don't know. Something like fire. Very dramatic. Unless something has to do in the story with the fire pit. Was somebody pushed into the fire pit? Like, again, I don't know where the story is going. We could come back to the fire pit as a central location. But also, again, I'll say one more thing and then go back to Cece. Like, when you're thinking about the COVID when we're thinking about the title, you have to put a fire pit on. So I don't like titles sometimes where we have to spell it out. The fire pit. And then what else are you going to put on the COVID A fire pit. So then it's like the fire pit and then a picture of a fire pit. You know what I'm trying to say? It's like doubling down on the imagery and the branding, which makes it feel like a thriller. Okay, back to Cece.
- [25:17]
Cece Lira
I was bitten by your bug and you were bitten by mine because you were like a quick thing and then you went off on a CC Ramble. So this is the best. Guys, we're now being contagious. Freaky Friday. Ooh, if we had a Freaky Friday, I would be able to run a marathon. That would be cool. Anyway. Okay, I do think that the query letter is good, but I'll be honest, I finished reading this query letter, and the first thought that popped into my head was, where's the present day conflict? And this is actually a lot more common than people might think. We see it as literary agents all the time. Pitches that have strong, uninteresting premise, simmering tension between the protagonists, plenty of backstory, a really cool hook, like grandmother, granddaughter, estranged, entangled. Like, this is a cool hook, but no present day conflict. Tension isn't conflict. They're different things. And the key word here really is present day. Like, I see sources of conflict in the past, but not in the present. My best guess is that the present day conflict exists, but the writer either got carried away adding the backstory, which is so interesting, or maybe the writer got worried that revealing the conflict would result in spoilers. Right now, for me, it's way too amorphous, too vague. It's depicted in words like reconcile and move forward. And that really doesn't paint a clear picture. Right. I want clear. I want compelling. It might be buried, actually in the line that reads, I'll read it for you when Josephine betrays Loretta. So maybe that's the present day central conflict, or maybe that's the climax. I don't know. I wish the author were on the show so I could ask her about it. Another possibility is that this is a quiet novel, right? If that's the case, I'll be honest, I don't think you should pitch it as book club fiction. So for me, book club fiction requires sharp, gripping present day conflict. It's really a non negotiable and I am really grateful to the writer for submitting their work because it does give us an opportunity to talk about the importance of ensuring that your story's present day conflict is really present in the query letter. So that was great. I do love the hook. I want to be clear about that. Having estranged grandmother, granddaughter, that's really interesting and there's a lot that we can potentially unpack there. As someone who is very, very close to my grandmother, she has already passed away, but I still refer to that in the present because the relationship feels alive to me. I love that. And I would 100% read a book with this hook. I just think that we need to flesh out that present day conflict. Carly, what did you think?
- [27:49]
Carly Waters
All right. I definitely agree. So I was kind of like searching for what it was like. To me, I think the way that I read it is that the present day hook is going to be in the battle for who owns the property. What's going to happen to the property? Does she want to keep it? Da da da da. So I do think there is something there, but it's not spelled out at all. And Cece and I both had to go looking for it. And we said so many times on this show, agents aren't always going to have time to go looking for those details. So I had some fun with this query today. I had a little bit of extra time on my hands, which I don't usually have some extra time on my hands. So I decided to rewrite your hook for you in five different ways. And I never do this because again, it takes a lot of time and thought about what is actually hooky about this. But I think CC and I can both sense like there is a hook here. It's just not being communicated very well. So if you're part of my author's publishing playbook, you have access to all of my hook templates. So what I did was I took my hook templates from my program and kind of plugged in this book into my hook templates. So I'm going to give you five hook examples today where I took my templates, I took this query, mashed them together using three different templates of mine. And you'll kind of see what I mean by that. In my course, I have eight different templates, so lots more options. But not every template is always going to be for every book. So I'm going to give you my examples here. For the rest of them that aren't kind of on display, obviously, you guys can head to my author's publishing playbook and have access to all of this right in front of you. Okay, so the first one that we are going to go through is the character goal, Obstacle, hook. So when I take this template, the character goal, obstacle template, and I take all of the elements of this book, this is what we get. A grandmother must finally escape the burden of her family's vacation home, despite her estranged granddaughter's unexpected arrival and determination to save it. So we have what is our character, what is their goal, what is their obstacle? Because we have two primary characters here, we also have to make sure that both characters are mentioned. So I think this example does a good job of what are the characters, what are their goals, and what are their obstacles. So that's that example. The next example is the what if Question template. The what if Question template isn't my favorite because it's kind of rhetorical questiony. It's kind of got a question mark at the end. It's not right for every query letter. And we do see a lot of those, like, question mark hooks, where you're like, oh, are you just, like, leading us where you want to go? But sometimes a query requires a what if question hook template. So here are my examples for this one. What if the place you called home held the key to your family's deepest wounds, and to heal them, you had to risk losing it all? It's a little bit vague, obviously, but sometimes for some books, you need a question mark. So that's an example there. Another one. What if scattering ashes meant unearthing decades of secrets, forcing a grandmother and granddaughter to confront a legacy of abuse? So we're getting, like, the ashes leads to the secret. We get the mashup of the two characters, and the legacy of abuse is essentially, I think, what everything is hiding under here. So that's a couple examples of the what if question. Now, the last template example I'm going to tell you guys is the irony or kind of like twist hook. So again, what's the twist that we're going to get to? So here's a couple of examples applied to this one. A grandmother's attempt to finally find freedom by selling her family summer home. Is thwarted by the one person she never expected to see again, her estranged granddaughter, who believes the camp is her only true home, and she'll risk everything to keep it in the family. Another option, the family summer home, meant to be a place of solace and family tradition, becomes the battleground for uncovering a dark history of abuse that binds two women across generations. So you'll see all of my examples there are getting at a little bit more, kind of like heat and heart of the story. We're getting at what's bringing these two characters together, what's at stake for them. And even if it is quiet, you can see how you can still write hooks in a way that don't sound quiet, even if they are quiet, because we're not trying to fool anybody or just trying to get them to read your book. So I wanted to take the time today to rewrite those books for you, and I hope that was helpful to everybody listening. There are lots of templates out there that you can use to kind of plug and play and figure out what works best for your story.
- [31:59]
Cece Lira
Amazing. Thank you so much, Carly. Okay, I will go ahead and summarize the opening pages. So the protagonist is scattering a handful of her late husband's ashes on a boat with her family. She is directing other family members to do the same. And then they see, like, a kayak approaching. It turns out that that's her granddaughter, Josephine, and she was not supposed to show up. And this causes a lot of emotions on the protagonist. Not good emotions. The protagonist clearly does not want her there. Didn't think she'd come. And they continue scattering the ashes. Like, everyone just, you know, says hi to Josephine, but she kind of, like, stays back, and they continue scattering the ashes. And then her son asks, well, shouldn't we say something? And she. For a moment, she feels her heart swell with emotion, but she's like, listen. There's nothing else to say. So that is what happens. Okay, so now my thoughts on the pages. This is either not starting in the right place, or it's not starting in the right way, or there's something missing from your story setup. I'll try to explain what made me reach these theories. A question every storyteller needs to answer when they are writing a novel or a memoir is what do I want my reader to be curious about. The best answers are specific answers, like everything are not specific answers, like my protagonist's feelings or my protagonist's motivation. These are not good answers. Do not recommend that these be your answers. We need not just specificity but we need really juicy specificity. And right now I am being shown a protagonist who is clearly bothered by the arrival of Josephine. And that's a disruption, right? Like every beginning needs a disruption. That's clearly the disruption. But I don't understand. I'm not feeling with the protagonist any of these emotions. So we have emotionality and we have interiority. It's not that they're absent. We have emotions like rage, even hints of disgust. We have interiority that includes the protagonist thinking, how dare she? And, you know, accusing her of showing up in a dramatic fashion all in her inner life. All that. It's just for the reader, like, it's really, really well done, but there's no plot to back it up. Because to me, the fact that her arrival was dramatic and bothered the protagonist is. Is excellent, but not enough. Like, you definitely keep that. But I also need to understand why this is bothering the protagonist so much. Not in a way where you're going to spell everything out, but you're going to give me just enough to be curious. I'm left feeling more confused than curious because I know from the query letter they're estranged. But what exactly is so threatening or disruptive about her presence? Like, what is she expecting, expecting this presence to do to the group dynamics, to her own situation? It all comes down to power and power dynamics. And in order for this disruption to be the disruption that's going to kick off your story, you need more. And maybe you don't have more because this isn't the right disruption, right? Or maybe you do have more and you just didn't give us enough. But I will say it's very rare that interiority and emotionality are present on the page without the. The plot. Usually writers, they'll issue the plot, but then they'll forget about the interiority and the emotionality. Like, and you, you have the almost the opposite problem. A lot of people think that emotional arcs can be seen in isolation. And I get that question all the time. Like, how do I map out my character's emotional arc? And my answer is always, you don't forget about the emotional arc. There's no such thing. There is, but it doesn't actually matter. Like, if you map out an emotional arc, you will probably forget about the. The plot. Like, you need to map out your character arc. And emotionality will be a part of that, right? As will the story beats their goals. The disruption, the challenge, the obstacle. The emotions have to exist almost like in a pinball effect with that, you know, where. Where you'll turn on the levers, and the ball will go pinging around and hitting a whole bunch of things. And emotion will cause action, and action will cause emotion, reaction will cause emotion, reaction will cause action, and so on and so forth. It's not a neat chain reaction. And so here you have two elements, but one element is missing. And I just. I don't know. I think your story setup is fine. If I had to guess, I would say your story setup is totally fine. And what's missing is really just including the information in a way that reveals just enough to get us curious, but not too much that just gives it all away. How about you, Carly? What did you think?
- [36:37]
Carly Waters
I was really taken with the writing. I want to read a couple pieces that I thought were really well done. So right off the top here, we're starting at the beginning of the book. Loretta had expected the ashes to float and sashay like pollen in a spring breeze or the first fine snowflakes of the season. Instead, the fragments of her husband dropped like shooting stars through the dark water, gone before she could make a wish. Not that she'd ever been one for wishing. At last, she thought. The words to her wedding song had been a relief 52 years ago, and they were a relief now. She tipped her hand again, watching her husband's ashes cascade across her skin until all that was left of him was a fine dust filling the deepest cracks in her palm. I think this is really beautiful. Like, this is one of those openers where I bet you this writer wrote this a hundred times, edited it, changed it, but, like, every word choice here is so perfect, and we, like the author, clearly got to a place where they're like, I have every word just right. So I was really, really taken with the writing here. I think what I was confused about, kind of what cece was essentially getting at was, which is, you've set up an interesting situation, and yet you're not giving us enough of the why. Like, why is she estranged? Why did they choose the boat? Like, I don't know. You just need to give us a little bit more here in terms of how they got to this exact moment, which is, I think, what Cece is getting at. Where it's like, I don't think we're starting at the right place if none of us can understand why we're starting in this moment, because I don't really think we have a why. I usually say we always have to start at the most interesting point in the character's life. Right. And this is clearly the start of a new life for her after her husband has passed. You know, this is the moment. But like, why did they wait three years? How did they get everybody together? You know, how did the granddaughter know to show up on a kayak alongside the boat? Like, there's just too much unanswered here. And I think maybe, and if I could speculate that the author's being a bit precious, you know, they're being a bit precious with the words for the sake of the plot. And so we just need to like bring plot. Now that you, like, have this, you know, again, incredible craft down, we have to go back with a plot lens and I just don't think we went back through the plot lens to think of. Is all of this making sense? Does the reader know enough? What did your beta reader say about this? Because I'd be really curious what your beta readers thought of this because again, the writing is great and sometimes our beta readers are too close to us, you know, because they know too much and they've read too many drafts. Like, did a fresh beta reader read this? I would be very curious about that and what their feedback would be. But I think the writing is great.
- [39:03]
Cece Lira
I absolutely echo that fantastic writing. The fact that we were able to spend so much time critiquing the. The content is always, always joy. Because if the writing weren't so great, we wouldn't be able to do that. So thank you so much. Thank you everyone. Thank you, Carly. Next week we will have Bianca back. So we'll be back to our usual groove. Thank you everyone for listening.
- [39:26]
Carly Waters
Some projects I work on come together so clearly in Vision and message and Let Us Play was one of them. Harrison Brown, the first trans professional hockey player and a sister investigative journalist Rachel Brown co wrote an incredible book debunking myths about trans athletes and reveal how the opposition towards gender diverse athletes is fueled by fear and a moral panic as opposed to facts around what makes, quote, a level playing field. End quote. Let Us Play dismantles the illusion that sports have ever been fair, that trans athletes pose a threat to women's sports and that gender affirming health care for athletes should be prohibitive to play. I always say this is the type of book that will make you the smartest person at the dinner party about this topic and help you be the best ally that you can be to our trans brothers and sisters and non binary team members. Today I have an exclusive audio excerpt of Let Us Play, the introduction read by Harrison Brown himself. Enjoy.
- [40:23]
D
College was also a time for me to figure out who I was. Free from the watchful gaze of my parents and the microscope of my small, conservative hometown. I was living on my own for the first time and surrounded myself with like minded people and I gained confidence to express myself in a more masculine way. It was liberating. My college teammates became my second family and I soon trusted them with my biggest secret. In my second year, I came up to my team and coaches as a transgender man and had my first taste of living my life as Harrison within my hockey locker room. I still wasn't sure that I could compete on the women's side as a trans man. So beyond coming out to those people, I didn't come out publicly out of fear that I could lose my scholarship and not be allowed to play anymore. I thus lived a double life for my entire college career. Being Harrison in one aspect and someone I wasn't in every other way. It was agonizing and disorienting for trans men and AFAB non binary elite college athletes. Often their only option is to transition socially when a trans person changes aspects about themselves separate from medical treatments to align with their gender identity as they are beholden to strict policies. Those considering a medical transition with hormones will most likely take testosterone, a banned substance for athletes who play on women's teams, as it's seen as providing an unfair competitive advantage. Later, I'll explain why this reasoning isn't necessarily correct. It was at the end of my sophomore year that I knew I had to do something with regard to my gender dysphoria and my desire to live openly as a trans man. But as I said, hormones were absolutely out of the question. I didn't know that beyond letting my teammates know my secret, there were other officially sanctioned ways for me to be Harrison, a man in my league that wouldn't be revealed until my school's compliance officer called me into her office one day in late spring after our season had ended in a disappointing way. My team had been eliminated from the playoffs after the first round. It still stings to think about the breakaway I missed in overtime against Boston College, the top seeded team in the Hockey East Conference. It would have been the upset of the century, and even my best friend still nags me about it to this day. I wasn't sure why the compliance officer had called me in. We started chatting and she mentioned that one of my teammates who remained anonymous had told her that I was transgender. My anonymous teammate wasn't being intentionally malicious, as far as I could tell, but I was stunned and a bit confused as to why I had been outed without my consent. The compliance officer, however, was completely nonchalant about me being trans and wanted to support me in my social transition. While reminding me about the NCAA's testosterone policy, I assured her I wasn't planning on taking the hormone. She also said I could have my own locker room if I wanted and change my name and pronouns on the roster. I decided not to take her up on either of these options. I wanted to get ready for games and practices alongside my teammates. The locker room is a place of joy and camaraderie. It didn't feel like a woman's room to me. It's simply where I felt most comfortable. As for publicly changing my name and pronouns, I just wasn't ready yet. I was too scared of how I might be perceived by those outside my little hockey bubble and how my parents would react, as I still wasn't even out to them at this point. Looking back, I realize how important it is for trans and non binary student athletes to have those options, whether or not they take them. These choices provide a baseline of institutional acceptance and acknowledgement for gender diverse athletes at all levels, something that is becoming even more important amid the anti trans backlash that is only getting worse these days. The process of transitioning socially is something that's often left out of the conversation about trans and non binary people in general, and for athletes specifically, the focus is usually on the physical and medical aspects of transitioning. At the beginning of my journey in the public eye, after I came out publicly, my body was all journalists really focused on. I was asked numerous times about surgeries and other very intimate things. It was jarring and violating. They likely would have never asked cisgender athletes such personal and specific questions. For many trans folks who don't undergo surgery or take hormones, it can be isolating and leave them feeling like they aren't valid members of the community. In recent years I've been having conversations about this with Athlete Ally, a group based in New York that supports LGBTQ athletes who compete in sports at all levels, from recreational to elite. Anna Bathe, Athlete Ally's Director of research, told me it is exceedingly uncommon that college athletes are going to undergo hormone replacement therapy, any sorts of surgeries while they're in school. And there's a big void right now in college level sports, both in terms of the policies and overall awareness by coaches and administrators and in terms of supporting athletes who seek to transition at least socially. Filling this void will make things more comfortable and inclusive for all athletes and help people understand that there's more than one way to be trans. The only examples of transgender people I was aware of before I came out were folks who had transitioned physically and medically. I didn't fit into that category yet. I didn't think I would be accepted as a man in society, let alone in men's athletics as someone who didn't necessarily look or sound like one. Had I been able to see more out trans people that had only socially transitioned, it would have empowered me to come out sooner and live my truth at an earlier age. But more importantly, it would have given me the knowledge that I can absolutely be myself while still playing my sport. I thought it had to be one or the other, but it can and should always be both.
- [46:22]
Carly Waters
A reminder that this is an unscripted program and our conversations have been edited and condensed and is not a full picture of our feedback or conversation directly with each author. As always, refer back to our written notes for the fulsome picture. Carly Waters and Cece Lira are agents at PS Literate Agency, but their work on this podcast is not affiliated with the agency and the views expressed by Carly and Cece on this podcast are are solely that of them as podcast co hosts do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, policies or position of PS Literary Agency. A reminder about all the ways that you can support us as a show. Rate us five stars on Apple Podcasts. Tell your writing friends about us. We'd love to help as many writers as possible and follow us on our Substack newsletter. Get our stacked newsletter on a weekly basis. Bonus videos, articles, essays, advice and more. You can find it@theshitaboutwriting.substack.com that's theshitaboutwriting substack.
- [47:15]
Cece Lira
Com and that's it for today's episode. I hope you'll join us for next week's show. In the meantime, keep at it. Remember, it just takes one. Yes.