← The Shit No One Tells You About Writing
The Shit No One Tells You About Writing
What is Literary Burlesque and Can You Perform It?
00:48:08
Books with Hooks, Bianca, Carly and Cece
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- [00:00]
Bianca Murray
It's a new year and time to get fresh eyes on your work in progress. Are you looking for beta readers, some of whom might potentially become writing group members down the line? Are you wanting to be matched up with those writing in a similar genre and or time zone so they can critique your work as you critique theirs? At the same time, your manuscript doesn't have to be complete to sign up for this 3,000 word evaluation. This matchup will be open to registrations from now until the 2nd of March, with the matchup emails going out on the 3rd of March. Always such an exciting day. For more information and to register, go to Biancamarae.com and go to the Beta Reader Matchup tab. And please spread the word. Even if you aren't joining the matchup this time, the more writers we have signed up, the better the matches will be. Hi there and welcome to our show the Shit no One Tells you About Writing. I'm Bianca Murray and I'm joined by Carly Waters and Cece Lera from PS Literary Agency. Hi everyone. Welcome back to another Books With Hooks. Before we dive in today, we have a very, very exciting announcement to make. As some of you will know, my next book, A Most Puzzling Murder, comes out in June and to celebrate, we'll be having an epic, epic launch party in which Carly, Cece and myself will get together to do our very first in real life event since we started the podcast more than four years ago. It's kind of crazy that we haven't gotten together to do an in real life event in all this time and now we're finally doing it. So please book your calendars for the 9th of June. If there's any way that you can travel to Toronto for it. We'll have an incredible lineup at a downtown Toronto theater space with entertainment that includes a musical number, stand up comedy and a really kick ass MC that's master of ceremonies in this instance, not main character. Carly and Cece will critique my query and opening pages in a not to be missed hilarious Books with Hooks segment. We're going to have amazing literary prizes up for grabs and you'll get to meet some of your favorite authors who'll also be attending as my guests. Plus you'll get to chat and mingle with us, but most importantly, you'll get to meet and interact with other members of the T snot Y'all community because that's what we've always been about. Building community. Now further details about the guest authors, prizes and entertainment will be announced on our socials and in our newsletter. So keep your eyes peeled for that as well as the on sale date for the tickets because. Because they will be limited for now, just diarize the 9th of June and let all your writing besties know to do the same. You absolutely don't want to miss it. We are so excited. Okay, Carly, we're going to now throw it across to you to kick us off with our first query letter.
- [03:08]
Carly Waters
All right, well, what is more exciting than us all being in person? Well, a really great query letter. That is the answer. So let's get into it. Dear Bianca, Carly and Cece, thank you for becoming the writerly voices in my head. Whether it's leaning into the mismatch between dialogue, interiority or finally finding the right way into the building, you've become my prized Greek chorus. I'm directing my query to Carly in particular because of your interest in unique memoirs. And excluding this paragraph, the query is 383 words. Orson Welles once wrote, if you want a happy ending, that depends, of course, on where you stop your story. My debut memoir, all the Bleeding Stops eventually follows a devoted pandemic physician as she confronts her expandability and ultimately leaves behind the career she loved, only to pivot again months later when her healthy partner becomes bedridden. With long Covid pitched as the adrenaline and humanity of er. And Farzan Navi's Code Gray meets the lived experience of chronic illness in Megan O'Rourke's The Invisible Kingdom, with a slightly different lyricism to butt joke calibration. My proposal is complete and the manuscript is projected at 75,000 words. As an ER doctor of nearly two decades, I was content enough with my hamster wheel existence of work, family, life, until a new virus erupted half a world away and changed everything. The next 18 months would find me working in a pop up field hospital and making choices that would have once been unimaginable, teetering towards ptsd. I swallowed my pride, waved a white flag and asked for a short unpaid respite. When my request is denied because, quote, everyone else would want to too, end quote, I shocked myself by walking away from it all. The happy ending version would feature a montage of reconnecting with loved ones and relearning myself. It's denouement, a weepy scene and a pumpkin patch where I felt joy again for the first time in years. But of course, the real story didn't stop, especially months later when our family got Covid and only three of the four of us got better. I live outside San Francisco with my husband, two pretty cool teenagers and a rotating menagerie of foster kittens. My SSF appeared on air for NPR and in print outlets like the San Francisco Chronicle. I've been interviewed about leaving medicine for the Atlantic and npr, among others. Since my husband got sick, I've been collaborating with government agencies like HHS and NIH to improve long Covid care. When not serving as our family's Uber driver, I can be found hiking, exploring local thrift shops, and enjoying buttery pastries with friends. Of note, I parted amicably with my prior agent and this project has never been on submission. The first five pages are included below. Thank you for your time and consideration. Warmly, Molly Phelps, MD.
- [05:48]
Bianca Murray
Awesome, Carly. Thank you. Interesting. The the postscript I would love for us to discuss as well, because we get that question a lot. What do we what should we say if this is the instance? So I'd love to know if you think she's dealt with that well. And also page count before you dive into the rest of it, please.
- [06:05]
Carly Waters
Absolutely. So 383 words they said, excluding the first paragraph. But we always know we need that first paragraph in some capacity. So a little bit of a cheater one there. I'm saying it's 383, but that was a wink, wink, nod, nod, because clearly you're a listener of the show and you know that we always ask. So thank you for writing that in. We really appreciate it. Okay, so overall, this is super interesting because memoirs are one of those things where I love the idea, as this person says, of a unique memoir, but I fall in love with memoirs and then they are one of the hardest things to sell. So I'm always, as an agent, I'm always like, okay, this is a great story. It's an incredible human story, but I really always have to put the brakes on to be like, okay, is this story special enough to kind of make it to the next level? So you definitely had me with the hook in terms of, you know, if this is this an interesting project, but I always have, you know, again, those breaks on to think, okay, is this going to stand out enough, even if it's a really great hook? So we have to think about so many other things when we think about memoir. So okay, let's start at the top ish here. So you use an Orson Welles quote. I felt like this was a risky thing to do because quoting another writer in your query letter, especially off the top, I mean, I understand you're trying to kind of frame what you're trying to do here, but it's Also like highlighting a master writer. And if you don't live up to the quality of this quote quote, then it's kind of just showing a bit of disparity potentially between how great of a writer Orson Welles is and where you are. So I don't know, I just felt like it was risky. I understand why you did it, and I think that it works because you have the frame. You. You do use this quote to frame your query letter. So to everybody else listening, this is not an endorsement of this technique because it is risky, but I do think it potentially works here. So that to say, this is an incredible title. You guys know I obsess about titles. All the bleeding stops eventually. Holy moly. That is a great title. So super, super well done there with the title. I loved that as a hook. This really is rock solid. Right. Follows a devoted pandemic physician, even though pandemic stuff can be a bit like. We do go into some interesting stuff here. Right. Confronts her expendability, ultimately leaves behind the career she loved, only to pivot again when her healthy partner becomes bedridden with long Covid. So some people are going to be fatigued on Covid content. It's just a reality of, you know, we do get a lot of content in this capacity, capacity. But it is something that a lot of people are grappling with with long Covid, you know, and. And I. So I do think this is something where it does have the chance to stand the test of time as more research is done about long Covid. And so this conversation is not over by any means. But again, there could be potentially some fatigue here. Just to flag that. Okay, the comps are really strong. Code Gray, Invisible Kingdom. Great. I don't think we need, er, like the reference to the show. It is really old. It's obviously iconic, but your comps are strong. So I don't think we need that. Know, I'll be honest, I don't. I didn't love the. The like, lyricism to butt joke calibration line. Like, it's kind of funny, but I'm also like, I don't know, how many butt jokes does your book have that we need to talk about? Butt jokes? I don't know. I would probably strike it, but if you feel really strongly that you need to warn us about how many butt jokes there are, that's fine.
- [09:17]
Bianca Murray
Can I just interrupt? You said I would probably strike it, but. And then you went into it so that we'll. We'll take that as a pun. Carly, carry on.
- [09:25]
Carly Waters
I Am not the witty one. I am not known for all the puns, so thank you for recognizing my inadvertent pun. Okay, so now, the actual meat of this query letter, like these two paragraphs, are incredibly strong, but I do feel like you are stopping at the inciting incident. What happens in your actual book? You know, you're starting off strong. I feel like we are hanging. So I would probably trim your two paragraphs and then actually get into telling me what the book is about. Because again, no matter how strong your query letter is, I do still want to know what's going to happen in your actual book. This could be a situation where there's a proposal complete, but the manuscript isn't done. So you might not be entirely sure about where your own book is going. And this is a learning platform, so that's why you sent it to us. So all of that potentially makes sense to me. But if you were to be sending this out more widely, you would need to get into what is the revelation. Know we need some room to talk about what the revelations are in the actual book. Okay. Now, the last note that you wrote, I parted amicably with my prior agent. This project has never been on submission. Obviously, as Bianca said, this is incredibly interesting. Curious about what happened here. You know, as an agent, I think, like, did you not agree on the direction of the book? Did your agent leave the business? I don't know. Some sort of, like, partnership changes within the agency, mergers, acquisition, like, there could be a lot of reasons on the structural side of the agency why you left. There could also just be not agreeing on the direction of the book reasons. So, yeah, I don't know. Thank you for telling us. Is this a red flag? No, I just think there is some stuff to unpack here. So I am glad that you told me that the project has never been on submission, because that's the important thing here. If you ended this with I parted ample of my prior agent, period, I'd be like, did they shop it around? What happened? Why are you pitching me now? So the fact that you say this project has never been on submission is the key information here. And amicably is always a good word to use. I'm not saying don't use the word amicably if it's not amicable, but it is a very, very key word here. And so clearly you've listened to the show, you listened to me talk about this, and you know cece and Bianca as well. The word amicably is incredibly important. So, so well done on listening to the show. I can. I can tell that you are an avid listener, so thank you for that.
- [11:39]
Bianca Murray
A question before I hand it across to cece. Considering that the book never went out on submission, is it necessary for her to say that she had an agent and they parted? Because I think it's really important for an agent to know if a book has been out on submission. Do you think it helps to say an agent already liked this project and wanted to represent me? Is it necessary? Is it not necessary?
- [12:02]
Carly Waters
That kind of went through my mind as well about what are they trying to flag by saying this? What are they trying to signal to me? Because we know how important query letters are in terms of every word having to count. I figured they were probably trying to tell me that this book was good, this concept was good enough to get me an agent. It's probably what I was reading between the lines, which I think was what you were probably reading between the lines as well. Well, Bianca. So in that case, it does the job of letting me know that there was some interest there. And I think if an agent was getting this, who was maybe more junior, they might think, I really want to grab. You know, I want to get on this. You know, if another agent saw some potential here and I see the potential, I'm going to jump on. A more senior agent might think more. Are there yellow or red flags? I need to navigate here. But overall, you didn't do anything wrong, you know, to the. To the writer that's listening, you didn't do anything wrong here. I think you did everything right. But there is some, you know, curiosity.
- [12:51]
Bianca Murray
And question questions, and maybe for our listeners, something to take away from here is that personalizing a query letter isn't just about that upfront paragraph about I am pitching you because you have expressed an interest in this or that. It's also going, like Carly said, am I pitching a more junior agent who's going to look at this and go, ooh, another agent was interested and therefore they're going to jump on it, or am I sort of pitching a more senior agent, in which case they might see this as a red flag? So I'm not going to include that line there. So personalization is more than just that sort of opening paragraph. Okay, cece, handing it across to you.
- [13:25]
Cece Lera
Now, I don't see a character arc here. I think that's my note, and I think that Carly spoke to it. Carly, when you said you. You stop at the inciting incident, in my mind, I was like, oh, my God, like, so her leaving the Job is the inciting incident? Because that was one of the questions I had. I also thought it might be, but then I was like, maybe the book starts way before that. Like, I don't see the story beats. You know, we need to see inciting incident, escalating plot points culminating into a climax. Instead, you let us know that you left medicine. Let us assume that is the inciting incident. Right. But even if it's not. And then the next paragraph you went into, the happy ending version would feature, like, a montage and the pumpkin patch and all that, which is super witty and fun, but I don't want to know what your story would have been. You know, Like, I don't want that. I want to know what it was. And I'm guessing that you just don't know yet, that you're still figuring it out. And to Carly's point, this is an educational platform, so it's totally fine. But we need to read query letters as though they were capital R already, because that's how we can give you feedback. So I think you have to figure out your character arc, and I would encourage you to think of this as fiction, specifically when it comes to the story beats. Right? I'm not saying make stuff up. Of course not. It's a memoir. But I am saying imagine that your memoir were fiction. Right? Imagine yourself as a protagonist. Imagine what the inciting incident would be. What are the escalating plot points? What's the climax? Who's the antagonist? These are all questions that I encourage memoirists to ask themselves, because I feel like it helps to take a step back and to look at yourself from the outside, to process yourself as a protagonist. So that's what I would do here. I think that your author paragraph is super impressive. I want to look up the articles you wrote. Really good job there. And, yeah, good luck with your story.
- [15:18]
Bianca Murray
Cece, just a question. What was your take on the line about sort of parting amicably with the agent? How did you respond to it? I'm just trying to show the subjectivity here.
- [15:27]
Cece Lera
Absolutely. So I don't think that you need to share. Like, you do not have to. Given that this has never been on submission, I think that, on average, it helps. I do think that Carly's point is excellent. Like, there are agents, more senior agents who would be like, hmm, I wonder why you parted ways with your agent before this went out on submission. I wonder if it's because you're a difficult person to work with. Sorry, guys. That would cross through people's minds. Like, it's not nice, but it's the truth. I wonder if it's something else. Right. And I don't think that that should necessarily stop you from including if you feel strongly about it personally. With me, when I get a query letter that says this, I tend to think, you know what? I don't even know if this was the book that she. That she signed with her agent for. So I try to not let it affect me in any way. I know plenty of people who have signed with agents, and it doesn't make me go, oh, yay, that means their book is good because it's so subjective. But it also doesn't make me feel maybe there's something going on, maybe they're a diva, because, I don't know, there's just so much in this industry that could. That could go into this decision. So I try to not think about it at all. I think that because the book has not been out on submission, your chances of this being better as opposed to worse are high.
- [16:43]
Carly Waters
My spidey senses as an agent tell me that this author wrote this article for the San Francisco Chronicle. An agent saw it, they signed them based on the article, and the agent got impatient with how long this proposal was taking to come together. That's what my spidey senses are telling me. This author could be like, kylie, you're out to lunch. That's what my spidey senses are telling me.
- [17:04]
Bianca Murray
Yeah. Just important for the author to know that agents are going to try and fill in the blanks and they may be wrong. So just something to keep in mind. Okay, Carly, what was in the opening pages? Can you please give us a summary?
- [17:17]
Carly Waters
All right, so we start with a prologue called a prologue. So I am not making any sneaky prologue references. It was called prologue, spring 1997. We start with our protagonist, our doctor, character person. She is 23 years old. She is thinking that she wants to go into psychology. So she has mapped out her career to become a professor of clinical psychology with the goal of working in the psychiatry ward, you know, going to grad school for all of this. Her mentor suggests that she needs to try working in ER just to kind of make sure, you know, that is the career path that she's looking for. Her mentor gets her kind of a walk through with an ER doctor to kind of shadow him for a shift. She goes to the hospital in Oakland across the bay from San Francisco, to work in the hospital there to work the ER shift. And then when she is there, she's immediately hooked by the job. Somebody Comes in with a gunshot wound. They're doing CPR on him. This person does not make it out alive. And she learns things through the experience, and then she's kind of forever changed. And that's where we end.
- [18:25]
Bianca Murray
Okay, so that's quite a long prologue, if we're talking about the first five pages. Okay. So it's difficult to compare that to what's in chapter one to be able to go, she's starting in the right place. But what was your take on that?
- [18:37]
Carly Waters
Yeah, so, I mean, big picture here is really, this is a doctor. Can this doctor write? Those are the first questions that are going through my mind. You know, I get a lot of doctor pitches, doctor queries over the years, where they could be the smartest person to walk this planet, and they can't write a book. Right. And so I'm thinking, can this person write? So for the purposes of how I'm evaluating this submission kind of just goes back to what we were talking about with the query letter, which is, this project isn't done yet. It is still in metamorphosis. As an agent stepping into this project at this stage, what value can I bring to this project and how can I help this person as a creator and as an author, you know, write the book that they set out to write? This is what I'm thinking. So when I read the first line, the first time I touched a dead body, I thought about breakfast cereal. I mean, brilliant. Absolutely brilliant line. So I'm thinking, okay, this doctor can write. So that frames again my understanding of how I'm going to read this. I have a couple notes about, like, this was a bit confusing here and there, but in terms of flow and being in scene, this person can also write that. So that was incredibly important to me. They really focused on moving us through what was happening. For example, like, we start off in this prologue with the psychiatry moment, and then kind of, you know, getting right into the R moment. And there's kind of the asterisk, you know, right through the middle of the page. You guys know what I'm talking about, to kind of show the time jumps. And that was exactly what we needed. We didn't need to spend time watching her drive in her car from her, you know, from grad school to the hospital, we needed to be like, she got this walkthrough, and now she's. The next thing she's doing is in the hospital. So this person did a really good job moving us through what was happening. Another really incredible line. The scene that's happening is the CPR that I mentioned when I was doing the summary. And so she's watching people perform cpr, and she says it felt like watching choreography set to music that I couldn't hear. I'm like, that's exactly what it would be like, you know, watching people perform this thing that, like, CPR that they've done a million times. Somebody coming into the ER and you can see it is so beautiful. And everybody knows and everybody has a job to do, but, like, you have no idea how they get to that point of moving like that. And anybody that's kind of been a witness, you know, in a hospital, like, whether you've been in the hospital, I know, like, giving birth. It's like all these doctors are moving around, these nurses, and everybody knows what to do, but, like, I don't know how to do the thing other than what I'm doing. And so I thought that was a really beautiful way, you know, watching choreography set to music that I couldn't hear. So, yeah. So to me, I have a really good sense that this person can write, which is very important to me when I'm working on a memoir from somebody who isn't a quote, unquote, natural writer or trained writer, that would be really important to me. So I can see a lot of pluses here. I think there's something to this story. I think this doctor can write. As I've said multiple times. I can't emphasize enough how many poorly written submissions I've gotten from doctors. Sorry, doctors. You are excellent at your jobs. I. But not all of you can. Can write. And I say that with love. Yeah. So that's kind of where I'm ending on this. So as, like, a professional evaluation, would I sign this person? I would have to see a lot more material. You know, ultimately, as Bianca said, like, this is just a prologue. Where. Where is this first chapter going? I have no idea. And I actually don't even know where this book is going. So I would need a synopsis from this person to kind of get the arc of it. I would need to read the proposal. I would need to see. You know, as they've mentioned before, you know, obviously they've written some pieces in other outlets, but as we all know, with nonfiction, a platform is required to get this project from A to B. You know, we need to know that this person can also do some heavy lifting in terms of promotion. So it's a tall order, as we all know, to publish a memoir. So those are just some of the things that I'm thinking about at these really early nascent stages. Have you heard of the investing gap? 66% of men invest in the stock market compared to just 48% of women. And in creative industries like book publishing, editing and writing, there are often way more women than men. That means our female listeners are less likely to be investing and I'm here to help you get started. 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- [23:50]
Bianca Murray
Okay, we're handing it across to Cece now.
- [23:52]
Cece Lera
Your take Cece in terms of scene clarity, 10 out of 10 like we always knew what was going on. We always knew who was speaking. The descriptions were detailed. She was zooming in, she was zooming out. It was also very much grounded in the protagonist's interiority. A lot of people when they're describing, they forget to ground it in the protagonist's interiority. This author did not forget. Also 10 out of 10 in terms of polished, right? Like this is really polished to Carly's point. Yes, you can write. Congratulations. I am going to drop one of my CC truth bombs though because I want to be honest with you, I was not curious. I got to the end of these pages, and I was very impressed, but I was not curious. I was not curious about chapter one. I was not curious about what happened in the next scene. And everyone, not just agents, every reader on the planet, needs to be curious. When they get to the end of your prologue, you have an impact line. At the very end, you say, I had no idea yet that emergency medicine was going to break my heart. It's a good impact line, but it's not a great one. We already know you're going to leave emergency medicine. We have no sense of how it's going to break your heart or no specific theories. And breaking your heart is just too big picture and too amorphous to make me curious. I wanted more tension, more curiosity seeds. I don't think that's negotiable in a memoir. I'm sure someone's going to tell me. Cece, there are memoirs out there that don't have curiosity seeds. I'm sure there are. They're not for me. Right. Like, it's just a matter of taste. So I really want you to ramp up to tension. I want you to focus on tension. I want you to go to your favorite, I don't know, like, 10 books and read their prologues or their chapter ones and highlight all the elements of curiosity, curiosity seeds, clues, tension. Whenever the author withholds information, books that you've already read the whole thing, because then you'll know why they withheld the information. I want you to go and do that homework because I feel like it might unlock something in your brain. You'll go, oh, that's the thing I'm not doing. That's the layer I'm not adding. And if it doesn't, then, yeah, you spent all this time, but at least you'll know that it's not for you. You'll know that it's not your style, not your book. And that's fine because you don't have to listen to me. Right. But for my taste, I needed a lot more tension.
- [26:07]
Bianca Murray
Thank you, Cece. Yeah. This just proves, again, how difficult this all is, because we've got so many compliments for this work. This is great. This is great. 10 out of 10. But there's still this element. So it just shows you how many layers go into making this thing that is a perfect book. Not that there is such a thing as a perfect book, but certainly one that's going to land you an agent and sell. Okay, so. Right. We are now handing across to Cece, will you read us your query letter please?
- [26:33]
Cece Lera
Lets do this. Dear Cece, I'm querying you because of your interest in high concept thrillers that keep you guessing. To See youe in the light is an 80,000 word dual point of view speculative thriller with a strong romantic plotline. Think Wild. Wild country meets the dry with a speculative twist. It will appeal to readers who enjoyed the creepy and charismatic self help guru in Leon Moriarty's Nine Perfect Strangers and the vivid Australian landscapes in Holly Ringland's the Lost Flowers of Alice Hart. Frankie is a talented visual artist who lives in the fog of grief. Having lost her son, her husband and her job. Her one lifeline is the wisdom of social media thought leader Mara Lin. Desperate for change, she attends a live event where Mara touches Frankie's forehead inducing temporary euphoria. Euphoria. Rather than returning home to her mother's spare room, Frankie follows Mara to her remote Queensland property to become a member of an exclusive technology free community, the People of Light. Finally, free from the narcissistic control of her aging pop star mother, Frankie believes she's found what she needs to heal and move forward. Journalist and traumatized son of a fallen preacher, Adam is convinced Mara is drugging her followers. He's heard reports of former communities she began where members died from overdose. Undercover, Adam infiltrates the People of Light and is shocked to find himself euphoric under Mara's naked touch. Adam is torn by his growing desire to believe in Mara's power. But when Adam and Frankie fall in love, break the celibacy vow and Frankie becomes pregnant, the couple incurs the leader's wrath. Disenchanted with the leader, Adam and Frankie start noticing strange inconsistencies during conversations with Mara and local community members. Their doubt builds until a local shopkeeper delivers a secret message telling them to run. Convinced Mara is using them for more than just their devotion, and fearing the psychosis inducing effects of withdrawing from her touch, Adam and Frankie must find a way before it's too late. I live in Queensland with my husband and two young daughters. I hold a Master's in International Development and work as a freelance grant writer. Great writer too. My short stories have appeared in Australia's Mind Food Magazine, the Bristol Short story Prize Anthology, Volume 13 and 5 on the 5th. I'm currently studying at the Faber Academy. Please find below my first five pages. Thank you for your time and consideration. Kind regards, Chelsea Chong.
- [29:19]
Bianca Murray
Thank you, Cece. Okay, word count there and then your take on that.
- [29:23]
Cece Lera
This one came in at 403 words okay, from the top, you have four comps. Four comps is too many. It's just confusing to our poor, poor, aged brains. 2. Pick 2. I don't know which two because I haven't read your work enough to tell you, but you know two. Seriously, stick to two. You don't need four. I also don't think that highlighting things like vivid Australian landscapes is smart when it comes to comps. Like, that's not super compelling. It's beautiful, but it's not super compelling. So pick the two books that you feel best. Describe your story. Now, plot points. Or actually, I should say plot paragraphs. This query letter is doing a really great job with plot vibes. It's not doing a really great job with plot points. What's the difference? A plot point is an external event that changes the story in a significant way. Storytelling is about change. And a plot point is an external event that changes the story in a significant way. Plot vibes are internal things. You need both for a story. You need the internal aspects, but the query letter should be focused on the plot points. Let me give you examples. So what do vibes mean? Vibes mean things like the protagonist is torn. The protagonist is traumatized. The protagonist is shocked. The protagonist is filled with desire to believe. Again, super important. But what does that mean? Like, what does that look like when you write a sentence? Like, the couple incurs the leader's wrath. How do I shoot that? If that were movie trailer, Is she going after them with a knife? Is she poisoning them? Like, what does that mean to incur her wrath? So I don't know. I actually read this twice to make a list of what the plot points are. Here are the plot points I see. Frankie joins People of Light. That is a plot point that changes the story in a significant way. Plot point number two. Adam joins to investigate another plot point. Frankie and Adam get together and they break the rules and they get pregnant. So that's another plot point. They get a message telling them to run. The message is sort of a plot point, but it could be that's it. Like, I think you need more plot points. I think you need to tell us a little bit more about your story. I think that you're not telling us because you want to be like, ooh, mystery. But the dance between withholding and revealing is a very delicate dance. And I think that you are withholding too much. I don't know what a lot of things mean. I've already shared the example of the wrath. But here's another one. Convinced that Mara Is using them for more than just their devotion. What do they mean? They must find a way out before it's too late. Are they trapped? Like, why can't they get out? Like, why can't they just walk out of the place? Like, I literally don't know enough about your story to tell you whether the arc makes sense. And because I don't know enough, I'm not curious in a specific way. I am definitely curious in a vibes way, because a cult leader and, you know, you have all these high stakes things going on. That's awesome. But it is a general curiosity. I'm curious about this cult leader book in the same way that I would be curious about any other cult leader book. It's very juicy. But what is specific to me, your story, when it comes to the plot points, that's what I wanted more of.
- [32:44]
Bianca Murray
Thank you, Cece. Yeah. What you've said there, the dance between withholding and revealing makes me think it's the. You know, this is the equivalent of literary burlesque, because that is a burlesque show, right? It is the fans and revealing something, but withholding a lot of other things. And this is what we pretty much have to be doing here, people, is literary burlesque. Okay, Carly handing it across to you.
- [33:08]
Carly Waters
If we still had merch, I would be like, that is. That's gonna go back on the merch. We retired our merch a long time ago, unfortunately. Okay. So I think one of the things Cece didn't talk about, which I will talk about, which is one of the most interesting things about this pitch. Speculative. The word speculative. This is huge. This is huge.
- [33:28]
Bianca Murray
Huge.
- [33:28]
Carly Waters
Huge. That is what sets this book apart. That is what sets this pitch apart, is the fact that this is speculative. And you actually, you say inducing temporary euphoria, and you kind of allude to the fact that, like, potentially, I don't know, I'm. Again, I'm just speculating because I don't know, somehow they're taking the power from these people and using it for whatever. So whatever the speculativeness of this book is needs to be much more present in the body paragraph, because that is actually what is the selling feature. That is the hook. Because we've seen cult books, we've seen commune books, we've seen community books, which a lot of people do enjoy these. I actually really like that you never use the word cult, that you only use the word community. That's very important. I think that was an intentional choice, so I want to give you a thumbs up for that. But you're definitely downplaying the speculativeness here. Use the word speculative twice in the first paragraph, and then we actually don't ever use the word euphoria, I believe, twice euphoria and then euphoric. And then we actually don't know what's happening here with this otherworldliness. And that, to me, is where you're letting your query down. So that is something that I would definitely highlight here. Okay, question, just like point blank is the grief piece here. So it says, lost her son, her husband, and her job. So we find out, you know, I don't want to spoil this, but we find out that there has been a physical loss of grief, that somebody died. I was under the impression that both the son and the husband died. We find it in the pages that only. I think only one of them died. I would be much more clear with the reader here of who died. And I think you're just trying to, you know, you're trying to be intentional with your. With your sentence structure here. Lost the son, lost the husband, lost the job. But lost death. And lost isn't like lost your job or different. So I don't know, I might just be. You're making. You're trying to be a bit too cutesy here. When I think I just need you to tell me who is dead and who is alive. That would be really helpful. Yeah, I mean, I. I think this is really interesting. I think you're going to get agent attention here because I think you've got enough going for you. And is the query letter doing the job? Is the question I always ask. Is this query letter doing its job? I do think it's doing its job. I do think you're. You're potentially going to get interest here. But cece and my. And Bianca's job here is not to just get you maybe some agent interest. Our job and intention is to get you lots of agent interest. So then you get to make, you know, make your choice of whatever agent you want. So I would definitely take our suggestions to heart here because it does seem like you have something interesting. I've highlighted in my commentary which of the comps I think you should keep and what you think you should. What. What I think you should get rid of. So everybody who sees our subscriber notes will be able to see that. And another thing I want to say is I think you have a great author name, Chelsea Chong. That is like. It's got a lovely ring to it. I love the CC Alliteration name. So, yeah, I don't know. I think you have a great authorly name that deserves to be on the front of a book.
- [36:18]
Bianca Murray
Awesome. Carly, a quick question in terms of the speculative elements, because what happens if it turns out that it wasn't anything speculative? This person didn't have power, she really was drugging people, or it really can all just be explained. Then should the author lean into the speculative elements aspect? Because my suspicion here is that it turns out to not be something otherworldly or magical. It turns out to be something that can actually be explained. So then what do they do in that instance?
- [36:45]
Carly Waters
So then it's not actually speculative. Right. So it's either. You said the word speculative twice, so I'm going to go on the assumption that it is speculative, but if it's not actually speculative and it can be explained away, then you need to take the word speculative out of your pitch.
- [36:59]
Bianca Murray
Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, I'm just. That's my theory, but something for the author to consider. Okay.
- [37:06]
Carly Waters
Right.
- [37:06]
Bianca Murray
Cece, can you tell us what's in the opening pages?
- [37:08]
Cece Lera
So the protagonist is in an auditorium. A man is asking a question in the audience with a mic, and the protagonist is heading to a seat. Everyone is already seated. She's the only one who's standing. So Mara is on stage. That's her cult leader. And she tells the man that love is an illusion. And these words have a really big impact in the protagonist. We know through interiority that she suffered a loss. Mara looks at the protagonist, who's again the only person standing up, and asks her, why are you here? And then asks her to join her on stage. So the protagonist does, and she says, I want to save my marriage. Mara asks if she lost a child, and the protagonist confirms that she did. And she's, you know, very surprised that Mara could tell. So that is essentially what happens.
- [37:53]
Bianca Murray
Okay, well, that sounds really compelling. So what was your take? Did the opening pages do their job?
- [37:59]
Cece Lera
I don't think think that you're starting in the right place is my big picture. Note, these pages are doing a really good job of establishing who she is, what happened before. These are two really key elements to a story, but they're not the job of the first pages. The job of the opening pages is to make me want to read more, is to make me curious about the second scene, the third scene, the fourth scene, in a specific way. Not in a will she find love way. Or will she heal way. No, no, in a very, very specific, specific way. So I don't think that you're Planting enough story forward curiosity seeds to keep me curious. Also had a plausibility issue. So we know through interiority that she's listened to all of Mara's speeches, right? Like, she's a huge, huge Mara fan. And then the man is asking a question, and Mara says that, you know, the concept of falling in love is a fantasy of the ego, which I imagine is something she said, even if in different words before. And someone who has listened to her, you know, all her tapes and stuff, like someone who is a devoted Mara fan would know. Then we have her interiority repeating the words, falling in love is a fantasy of the ego. The words sunk into my chest and slowed my racing heart. And a couple of paragraphs later, she's still thinking about the words. And we have a sentence that reads, this was the release I'd been searching for, permission to discard the fantasy of love. And I have to be honest, my cynical brain goes, nope, don't buy it. Don't buy it. There's no way that these words were enough for you to have such a major internal shift. I actually don't think that major epiphanies, major internal epiphanies are ideal in the first five pages. I think that we don't know enough about the character. We don't know enough about her. We haven't spent enough time with her. We just don't have enough context or psychological attachment to her to believe an epiphany. Especially not an epiphany that came from someone saying a sentence that is, quite frankly, a little cliche. So I don't believe the impact the words had, and maybe I would have if I knew a little bit more about her, if they had happened in chapter two or chapter three. I don't think you need the epiphany to be totally honest. So I don't think it's a problem to cut that.
- [40:08]
Bianca Murray
Cece, I just want to interject there. I don't want to ruin your train of thought there, but I want to ask, and play devil's advocate here. Do you not think that the author here is trying to show that the fact that this character has an epiphany based on one sentence, that they are kind of suggestible, you know, that. That they are the kind of person who would actually join a cult because somebody says something and they immediately internalize it, which then means, you know, because there's certain people who are much more open to joining cults than other people. And maybe that's what the author is trying to show here. I agree with you that if this person was a fan of Mara, she would have heard this before. But I'm wondering if that is the author's intention to show that they are suggestible and easily swayed. What else might they do in the scene to. To show that?
- [40:53]
Cece Lera
I think that is a great point. Let us assume, because that's actually super smart, that this is the author's intention because of the whole. She is an easily manipulated person. I would make it a little bit more subtle then. Have the words have a big impact. Have her recognize that she's heard something similar before, but coming from Mara, it's different because of her energy, because of something, you know, so. So I'm not thinking. But hadn't you heard her words before? You know, because that eliminates that problem and have them have a big impact. Like. Like enough at a 7, not at a 10. You know, don't write like this line. This was the release I've been searching for. No, make her wonder, make her go. Could this woman have the key to the permission? I seek to discard the fantasy of love. Is it possible for me, like, have her want to believe. Don't have her go there. It's. It's too quick. It's not. The calibration is off, you know, for me, for my taste. I don't know anyone who's more cynical than me. So it could just be a CC thing, right? Like, because I'm going, nope.
- [41:59]
Bianca Murray
Yeah, yeah. No. Well, as a writer myself, I'm just always thinking, why is the writer doing this? What are they trying to. To convey about the character? And that's sort of my suspicion. So just, how can they do it better? Okay, carry on. Cece. Sorry to have cut you off there.
- [42:12]
Cece Lera
No, it's all good. So I did have that plausibility issue. I do think that the scene is doing a really good job of establishing what happened before and who she is as a person. But I didn't see any specific curiosity scenes, and I really wanted that. I do want to give a really big shout out to her ability to write interiority when it comes to character development. So here's an example, and this is just. This was just masterfully done. So Mara gets up on stage, right? And she is, like, not happy to be on stage because she's a shy person, does not want the attention. And here, I'm going to read this for you. Mara leaned back in her chair, chin up, studying me. The crowd was quiet. A few shuffled in their seats. Please, I thought, let this be quick. I had no Idea why my mother lived for the stage or how our genetic makeup could be so wildly different. There were too many faces, too many eyes drilling into me, so I looked down at my paint smeared sneakers instead. This. This is such a simple thing, but it is the sign of an advanced author when it comes to interiority, and it makes a huge difference. Your protagonist is on stage, right? A lot of people would. Would have stopped at. She had stage fright. She was nervous. She immediately compared it to the person in her life who actually does love the stage. Her mother, who we know from the letter is actually a really important part of her life. Her mom's narcissistic. Her mom is manipulative. But the author does this in a really subtle and intelligent way. She compares her mom's taste to her own. Like, this is something that human beings do. I know that comparison is the thief of joy, but it is the giver of character development. I promise you it's true. Have your protagonist compare themselves to other people in their lives through their interiority, and watch how your character development takes a big leap. So this is really excellent. I loved it. And a big shout out to the author because it did a really good job.
- [44:06]
Bianca Murray
Thank you, Cece. Wow. Kudos. Okay, Carly, over to you.
- [44:11]
Carly Waters
All right, so I think I felt like these pages were rushed because. And Cece's point, you know, are we even starting in the right place? Is another great question. But I felt like we were very rushed here. And it could just be this person knew we only read five pages and they wanted to get on stage with Mara. You know, they wanted Frankie to get on stage with Mara by the end of the five pages and have the euphoria. That could very much be your intention. And again, if that was very intentional, then, you know, that's something definitely to think about. But I felt like I have no idea about how does she feel about being late if it was me. Again, this person is not me. And that's the whole point of reading other, you know, reading fiction. Being late to something would be so anxiety inducing. Like if I paid money, if I paid, I don't know how you. You would have paid. Let's say you paid 500 for this day workshop with Mara the guru. If I was effing late for my 500 day with Mara the guru, do you know, mad I would be. I'd be cursing the trains. I'd be like pushing ladies with strollers out of the way. I don't know. Like, the amount of anxiety I would have had would be so high Like, I don't know, by the time I got there, I would be, like, red and flustered and, like, what did I miss that she said that the epiphany that I came here for, to journey to today to get here, she could have already said the epiphany that I needed. And I. What was the. The point of all of the. I don't know. I just feel like we missed a lot of that interiority. So I have no idea how she feels about being late. I actually didn't really feel like I was very grounded in this scene because even. I don't know, there was just so, like. Personally, though, again, this is my personal assessment. I felt like she was watching the scene from above. And then this whole idea of her wanting to be in the front row. I'm like, lady, you showed up late for your day with Mara, and you want that front row seat that happens to be available. Like, wouldn't you be like, oh, gosh, there's throwing three rows from the back between that lady and that guy. Can I fit in there? I don't. Like. I don't know. I just feel like there was so much interiority of this scene and the way that we just rushed to get her on stage. Despite all of the. I agree with, you know, Cece's assessment. There was incredible, incredible things that were done about her imagining the walkway as the altar, you know, to getting married with her husband, and the similarities between that and the similarities between, you know, being on stage and what her mother would have felt. And so I agree with all that. This isn't to discount any of that, but I felt like this character was watching this scene from above and not actually in this scene at all. And so I took me a while to figure out, like, who. Why is she there? What does she want from this? And then we get to the point where Mara flat out asks her, what do you want? You know, and it's to save her marriage. I'm like, okay, finally I understand what it is that she wants from this scene, which makes me think, if you're late for this $500 day with Mara, do you really want to save your marriage? That's what I think, because I'm like, if you didn't prioritize getting there, you know, and having your front row seat, being an hour early with your coffee and your notebook, ready to take down all of Mara's notes, how badly do you really want to save this marriage? Which makes me think I don't know this character at all, potentially. This book isn't for me because I can't understand this character anyway. So these are my rambly, rambling, rambly thoughts about this scene. And again, it could just be that I don't understand this character and this book isn't for me or I don't understand this character because I actually don't think we spent enough time in scene with her going through the motions of how this feels, which again, could just circle back to the whole, like, is this actually the start of the book? Potentially not. And I also felt like, you know, again, putting so much emphasis on Mara the guru. We don't really spend a lot of time like it's Mara, like, ah, like she has a halo. And this. The sun comes down between the clouds and parts, you know, this beautiful vision, you know, we get her skin glowed all of under the light of the chandeliers. You know, we. We do get this sense of like, you know, she's barefoot and in this, you know, slinky dress and all of that is lovely. But I don't know, it just isn't what I expected. And sometimes when a book isn't what I expected, it's not necessarily a bad thing. But the writer has to do the job of explaining the character enough for me to know why this is different than I expected overall. Like, I was in the book in the sense where I got really stressed for her when she was called on stage. I was like, oh, that's very anxiety inducing, you know, to be called on stage. So there was a good amount of, you know, tension in that moment. But until the moment where she's on stage, I felt like she was watching the scene from above and I didn't actually feel like she was in the scene. So those are just some random, random, you know, quick thoughts. And everything I said isn't to negate what cece said. I actually agree with, with all the wonderful things CeCe said. But those are some things I think need some work and some thought.
- [48:51]
Bianca Murray
Thank you, Carly. Sometimes as authors, we just do something like have a character arriving late because we don't want to deal with the, you know, boring part of them sitting down and shuffling and coughing and whatever. And so we do something like that to get us in the scene firmly, but then we don't think about, like, the repercussions of that. Like Carly has said, why would she arrive late? Is this a priority? So sometimes it's a. It's an easy fix, you know, these kinds of things. And this is why beta readers and getting people's eyes on your work is so important so that we can get everybody else's interpretation of it. Carly and cece, thank you so much as always for your incredible insights and tune in for next week's author interview. We will see you then. Bye.
- [49:32]
Carly Waters
A reminder that this is an unscripted program and our conversations have been edited and condensed and is not a full picture of our feedback or conversation directly with each author. As always, refer back to our written notes for the fulsome picture. Carly Waters and Cece Lira are agents at PS Litera Agency, but their work on this podcast is not affiliated with the agency and the views expressed by Carly and Cece on this podcast are solely that of them as podcast co hosts do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, policies or position of PS Literary Agency. A reminder about all the ways that you can support us as a show. Rate us five stars on Apple Podcasts. Tell your writing friends about us. We'd love to help as many writers as possible and follow us on our Substack newsletter. Get our stacked newsletter on a weekly basis. Bonus videos, articles, essays, advice and more. You can find it at theshitaboutwriting substack. Com. That's theshitaboutwriting substack.com and that's it for today's episode.
- [50:28]
Bianca Murray
I hope you'll join us for next week's show. In the meantime, keep at it. Remember, it just takes one. Yes, it's a new year and time to get fresh eyes on your work in progress. Are you looking for beta readers, some of whom might potentially become writing group members down the line? Are you wanting to be matched up with those writing in a similar genre and or time zone so they can critique your work as you critique theirs? At the same time, your manuscript doesn't have to be complete to sign up for this 3,000 word evaluation. This matchup will be open to registrations from now until the 2nd of March, with the matchup emails going out on the 3rd of March. Always such an exciting day. For more information and to register, go to Biancamarae.com and go to the Beta Reader Matchup tab. And please spread the word. Even if you aren't joining the matchup this time, the more writers we have signed up, the better the matches will be.