Podcast Summary

The Shit No One Tells You About Writing

Episode: “When the Past Won’t Stay Buried: Building Dark Psychological Thrillers”
Date: January 29, 2026
Guest: Leodora Darling, author of The Exes
Hosts: Bianca Marais, Carly Watters, CeCe Lyra

Episode Overview

This episode dives into the craft of writing dark psychological thrillers that braid the past and present, using The Exes—the explosive debut novel by Leodora Darling—as a case study. The conversation covers Darling’s unconventional path to publication, the structural and emotional mechanics behind multi-POV, multi-timeline narratives, the crafting of unreliable narrators, and the nuances of plotting memorable twists. The hosts and Darling provide candid insights for writers hoping to break into the thriller genre, with plenty of practical tips, industry wisdom, and warm encouragement.

Guest Introduction and Book Context

• Leodora Darling is a debut novelist from London, originally an editor and publishing director, with Ghanaian heritage.
• Her novel The Exes follows Natalie, a woman with a troubled romantic past whose new marriage is shadowed by deadly secrets and unresolved history.
• The book’s hook: “Who hasn’t wanted to murder an ex? Figuratively at least. … Maybe he [James] won’t wind up dead. But the harder Natalie tries to be a normal wife, the more world-upending truths are brought to her door…” (Bianca Marais, 01:34)

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Debut Author’s Unusual Submission Story

• Leodora’s Experience in Publishing: Working in publishing allowed her to understand how to pitch, but made submission tricky because of professional connections.
• Submitting Under a Pseudonym:
  • “I went out under a fake name… I didn’t want you to just say you want to represent me because… I’ve got contacts.” (Leodora, 05:35)
  • Desire for impartial feedback and imposter syndrome motivated this approach.
• Accidental Submission:
  • Scheduled emails to motivate herself backfired: “I’d scheduled a bunch of emails to go out to agents… and then I got glandular fever… so I forgot about it… until a few hours after the emails had all gone. But luckily it worked out for the best.” (03:20)
• Response from Agents:
  • “By end of the Friday, I’d had 12 agents who’d asked for full.” (Leodora, 04:13)
  • Manuscript wasn’t finished; she had to explain and share what she had.

2. Choosing the Right Agent: More Than a Yes

• Multiple Offers:
  • “It was 11 or 12, so it was pretty much everyone except one. Two, actually.” (Leodora, 06:43)
• Criteria for Selection:
  • “I wanted someone who would be editorially hands on… someone who I knew was good at getting people to prioritise their submissions.” (07:18)
• Building Submission Momentum:
  • Authors can update agents with “There are now X full requests” to accelerate prioritization. (09:23)

3. From Partial to Publication: Crafting the Manuscript

• Writing Under Pressure:
  • Had to finish the second half quickly over the holidays.
  • Outlining helped: “I have a lot of half finished manuscripts, but I’d never plotted one out before.” (10:36)
• Submission Strategy:
  • UK editor preempted the book quickly: “My agent had sent it out… and then on Friday morning… here’s a figure, great, you’ve got until midday to take it or it’s off the table.” (Leodora, 12:32)
  • US sale involved an auction, letting her choose between editorial visions. (13:39)

Notable Quote:
“Not all agents and publishers are created equal… having a bad agent or bad publisher is worse than having none at all.”
—Leodora, 07:18

4. Revision, Editorial Work, and Perfectionism

• Value of Editorial Input:
  • “I think most of the books that I’ve published… have been the most successful are the ones that we’ve done the Mesa editorial work on.” (15:26)
• Continual Editing:
  • Books are never done: “I still edit my books years after the fact… Why did I use that clunky phrasing?” (Bianca, 14:25)

5. Crafting Complex Structure: Multi-POV and Dual Timelines

• Switching Off the “Editor Brain”:
  • As an editor-author, had to not self-censor: “I almost had to switch off my editor brain… I had to pretend that no one was going to read it and just let it flow.” (18:59)
• Rules vs. Authentic Storytelling:
  • “Don’t take in 100% of edits… it’s not your own story.” (Leodora, 20:18)
• Pacing Dual Timelines:
  • Past scenes need stakes—“emotionally or physically at stake”—for tension.
  • “Even though we’re looking back into windows of the past, it’s telling us more about our present.” (22:05–23:18)

Memorable Moment:
“[Introducing a new POV late] doesn’t work in every book. But sometimes, the story just needs it—that's when you break the rule.”
—Bianca, 19:46

6. The Past and Psychological Depth

• Braid of Past and Present:
  • “Who a character is in the present is so much dependent on what they’ve been through in the past.” (Bianca, 24:28)
  • Power dynamics in relationships depend deeply on class, race, and prior wounds.
• On Why Characters Do Dark Things:
  • “What would drive a woman to feel this level of rage or this much violence? …What someone’s childhood might look like, what relationships might look like.” (Leodora, 24:51)

7. Writing (and Reading) the Unreliable Narrator

• Levels of Reliability:
  • “I wonder if there is a reliable narrator… even in first or third, someone will think they're self-aware but there are always blind spots.” (Bianca, 25:53)
• Balancing What the Reader and Character Know:
  • “You as the writer are keeping secrets from the reader and from your main character as well.” (Bianca, 25:53)
  • Emotional resonance is key, not pure surprise: “You have to care about the characters in order for people to care about whatever twist comes to the fore.” (Leodora, 26:51)

8. Plotting Twists and Planting Clues

• Reader Engagement:
  • “I as the reader was actively participating… constant theories… as soon as they're coming up with theories, you’ve got them.” (Bianca, 27:57)
• Twists as Payoff, Not Trickery:
  • “I wanted to make sure… whatever was revealed… it didn’t feel like it was a trick… I hate reading something where they’ve kind of lied to me.” (Leodora, 29:24)
  • “There are some fun Easter eggs that hope people are like, ah, I see it.” (Leodora, 29:47)
• Reverse Engineering:
  • “You can go back and put those clues in… to make the twist feel like a payoff.” (Bianca, 30:51)

Notable Quote:
“It is rewarding to read… when you call it on the podcast ‘curiosity seeds’… so when something happens later, it feels inevitable and like a payoff as opposed to a trick.”
—Bianca, 30:09

Practical Advice for Writers

• Don’t rush to accept your first yes—find the right match with agents/editors who match your working style.
• Strategic communication (updating agents on interest levels) can accelerate your submission process.
• Outlining can help complete manuscripts, but pantsing can work—find your own process.
• Editorial work improves novels—seek constructive, hands-on feedback.
• For dual timelines, make every return to the past purposeful and tense—not just backstory, but meaningful stakes.

Notable Quotes & Time Stamps

• On agent selection: “I wanted someone editorially hands on [and]… good at getting people to prioritise their submissions.” (07:18, Leodora)
• On publishing luck/advice: “Not all agents and publishers are created equal… having a bad agent or publisher is worse than none at all.” (07:18, Leodora)
• On unreliable narrators: “I wonder if there is a reliable narrator… any first person or third… will have blind spots.” (25:53, Bianca)
• On twists: “I just wanted… [reveals] didn’t feel like it was a trick… I hate reading something… where they’ve kind of lied to me.” (29:24, Leodora)

Closing Reflections

The hosts and Leodora wrap the episode by emphasizing the emotional truth at the heart of thrillers, the importance of editorial collaboration, and the power of letting story structure and character wounds drive your narrative. Writers, especially those working in twisty, psychological genres, will find the advice actionable and reassuring.

Recommended for: Writers building psychological thrillers, those considering dual timelines/POVs, and anyone navigating submission and publication in the modern market.