When the Past Won't Stay Buried: Building Dark Psychological Thrillers

Summary

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Podcast Summary

The Shit No One Tells You About Writing

Episode: “When the Past Won’t Stay Buried: Building Dark Psychological Thrillers”
Date: January 29, 2026
Guest: Leodora Darling, author of The Exes
Hosts: Bianca Marais, Carly Watters, CeCe Lyra

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into the craft of writing dark psychological thrillers that braid the past and present, using The Exes—the explosive debut novel by Leodora Darling—as a case study. The conversation covers Darling’s unconventional path to publication, the structural and emotional mechanics behind multi-POV, multi-timeline narratives, the crafting of unreliable narrators, and the nuances of plotting memorable twists. The hosts and Darling provide candid insights for writers hoping to break into the thriller genre, with plenty of practical tips, industry wisdom, and warm encouragement.

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Guest Introduction and Book Context

• Leodora Darling is a debut novelist from London, originally an editor and publishing director, with Ghanaian heritage.
• Her novel The Exes follows Natalie, a woman with a troubled romantic past whose new marriage is shadowed by deadly secrets and unresolved history.
• The book’s hook: “Who hasn’t wanted to murder an ex? Figuratively at least. … Maybe he [James] won’t wind up dead. But the harder Natalie tries to be a normal wife, the more world-upending truths are brought to her door…” (Bianca Marais, 01:34)

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Debut Author’s Unusual Submission Story

• Leodora’s Experience in Publishing: Working in publishing allowed her to understand how to pitch, but made submission tricky because of professional connections.
• Submitting Under a Pseudonym:
  • “I went out under a fake name… I didn’t want you to just say you want to represent me because… I’ve got contacts.” (Leodora, 05:35)
  • Desire for impartial feedback and imposter syndrome motivated this approach.
• Accidental Submission:
  • Scheduled emails to motivate herself backfired: “I’d scheduled a bunch of emails to go out to agents… and then I got glandular fever… so I forgot about it… until a few hours after the emails had all gone. But luckily it worked out for the best.” (03:20)
• Response from Agents:
  • “By end of the Friday, I’d had 12 agents who’d asked for full.” (Leodora, 04:13)
  • Manuscript wasn’t finished; she had to explain and share what she had.

2. Choosing the Right Agent: More Than a Yes

• Multiple Offers:
  • “It was 11 or 12, so it was pretty much everyone except one. Two, actually.” (Leodora, 06:43)
• Criteria for Selection:
  • “I wanted someone who would be editorially hands on… someone who I knew was good at getting people to prioritise their submissions.” (07:18)
• Building Submission Momentum:
  • Authors can update agents with “There are now X full requests” to accelerate prioritization. (09:23)

3. From Partial to Publication: Crafting the Manuscript

• Writing Under Pressure:
  • Had to finish the second half quickly over the holidays.
  • Outlining helped: “I have a lot of half finished manuscripts, but I’d never plotted one out before.” (10:36)
• Submission Strategy:
  • UK editor preempted the book quickly: “My agent had sent it out… and then on Friday morning… here’s a figure, great, you’ve got until midday to take it or it’s off the table.” (Leodora, 12:32)
  • US sale involved an auction, letting her choose between editorial visions. (13:39)

Notable Quote:
“Not all agents and publishers are created equal… having a bad agent or bad publisher is worse than having none at all.”
—Leodora, 07:18

4. Revision, Editorial Work, and Perfectionism

• Value of Editorial Input:
  • “I think most of the books that I’ve published… have been the most successful are the ones that we’ve done the Mesa editorial work on.” (15:26)
• Continual Editing:
  • Books are never done: “I still edit my books years after the fact… Why did I use that clunky phrasing?” (Bianca, 14:25)

5. Crafting Complex Structure: Multi-POV and Dual Timelines

• Switching Off the “Editor Brain”:
  • As an editor-author, had to not self-censor: “I almost had to switch off my editor brain… I had to pretend that no one was going to read it and just let it flow.” (18:59)
• Rules vs. Authentic Storytelling:
  • “Don’t take in 100% of edits… it’s not your own story.” (Leodora, 20:18)
• Pacing Dual Timelines:
  • Past scenes need stakes—“emotionally or physically at stake”—for tension.
  • “Even though we’re looking back into windows of the past, it’s telling us more about our present.” (22:05–23:18)

Memorable Moment:
“[Introducing a new POV late] doesn’t work in every book. But sometimes, the story just needs it—that's when you break the rule.”
—Bianca, 19:46

6. The Past and Psychological Depth

• Braid of Past and Present:
  • “Who a character is in the present is so much dependent on what they’ve been through in the past.” (Bianca, 24:28)
  • Power dynamics in relationships depend deeply on class, race, and prior wounds.
• On Why Characters Do Dark Things:
  • “What would drive a woman to feel this level of rage or this much violence? …What someone’s childhood might look like, what relationships might look like.” (Leodora, 24:51)

7. Writing (and Reading) the Unreliable Narrator

• Levels of Reliability:
  • “I wonder if there is a reliable narrator… even in first or third, someone will think they're self-aware but there are always blind spots.” (Bianca, 25:53)
• Balancing What the Reader and Character Know:
  • “You as the writer are keeping secrets from the reader and from your main character as well.” (Bianca, 25:53)
  • Emotional resonance is key, not pure surprise: “You have to care about the characters in order for people to care about whatever twist comes to the fore.” (Leodora, 26:51)

8. Plotting Twists and Planting Clues

• Reader Engagement:
  • “I as the reader was actively participating… constant theories… as soon as they're coming up with theories, you’ve got them.” (Bianca, 27:57)
• Twists as Payoff, Not Trickery:
  • “I wanted to make sure… whatever was revealed… it didn’t feel like it was a trick… I hate reading something where they’ve kind of lied to me.” (Leodora, 29:24)
  • “There are some fun Easter eggs that hope people are like, ah, I see it.” (Leodora, 29:47)
• Reverse Engineering:
  • “You can go back and put those clues in… to make the twist feel like a payoff.” (Bianca, 30:51)

Notable Quote:
“It is rewarding to read… when you call it on the podcast ‘curiosity seeds’… so when something happens later, it feels inevitable and like a payoff as opposed to a trick.”
—Bianca, 30:09

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Practical Advice for Writers

• Don’t rush to accept your first yes—find the right match with agents/editors who match your working style.
• Strategic communication (updating agents on interest levels) can accelerate your submission process.
• Outlining can help complete manuscripts, but pantsing can work—find your own process.
• Editorial work improves novels—seek constructive, hands-on feedback.
• For dual timelines, make every return to the past purposeful and tense—not just backstory, but meaningful stakes.

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Notable Quotes & Time Stamps

• On agent selection: “I wanted someone editorially hands on [and]… good at getting people to prioritise their submissions.” (07:18, Leodora)
• On publishing luck/advice: “Not all agents and publishers are created equal… having a bad agent or publisher is worse than none at all.” (07:18, Leodora)
• On unreliable narrators: “I wonder if there is a reliable narrator… any first person or third… will have blind spots.” (25:53, Bianca)
• On twists: “I just wanted… [reveals] didn’t feel like it was a trick… I hate reading something… where they’ve kind of lied to me.” (29:24, Leodora)

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Closing Reflections

The hosts and Leodora wrap the episode by emphasizing the emotional truth at the heart of thrillers, the importance of editorial collaboration, and the power of letting story structure and character wounds drive your narrative. Writers, especially those working in twisty, psychological genres, will find the advice actionable and reassuring.

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Recommended for: Writers building psychological thrillers, those considering dual timelines/POVs, and anyone navigating submission and publication in the modern market.

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Transcript

[A]

Hi there. We've got a lot we're really excited to tell you about, but I'm going to make this real quick so you can get to the episode. The Deep Dive is coming up at the end of January. The lineup of speakers is incredible and the range of topics is mind blowing. You do not want to miss out on the last Deep dive ever. Then the beta reader matchup is open once again with the matchups going out early in February. Sign up to kick your creative year off with a bang. Lastly, there's an amazing writer's workbook available which will make the perfect gift for you or the writer in your life. Head to our website the Shit About Writing to find out more. Hi there and welcome to our show the Shit no one tells you About Writing. I'm best selling author Bianca Murray and I'm joined by Cece Lehrer of Wendy Sherman Associates and Carly Waters of PS Literal. Hi everyone. Welcome back to another author interview segment. Today's guest is a writer from London with Ghanaian heritage. She received a distinction for her Master's in Creative Writing from Brennell University where she studied under authors including Benjamin Zephaniah and Will Self. A bookseller rising star in 2021, she is also an editor and has published a range of best selling fiction. The X's is her debut novel. It's my pleasure to welcome Leodora Darling. Yeah, Dora, welcome to the show.

[B]

Hello. Thank you so much for having me.

[A]

It's wonderful having you. And for those of you who are watching on YouTube, I am holding up the book that we're discussing today, the Exes. And I'm going to read you the flat copy so that we can give you some context before we dive straight in. So who hasn't wanted to murder an ex? Figuratively at least. In this explosive debut novel, a woman's seemingly perfect romantic life is on the verge of collapse as she encounters uncovers a hidden history revealing dark secrets that have deadly consequences. Natalie has only ever wanted to find the one, the perfect man, the happy family she never had. But each time she thinks she's finally getting somewhere, she's bitterly disappointed. Another red line through a list of exes. And that was before the night of the big fallout that left her even more alone. Then along comes James. Wonderful, handsome James. And Natalie thinks her luck has finally turned. Maybe he's the one for her. Maybe he's the one she's been waiting for all along. Maybe he won't wind up dead. But the harder Natalie tries to be a normal wife, the more world Upending truths are brought to her door, leaving her unsure of who she really is, much less what she'll do. Leaving her to question whether there is a monster within or a villain toying with her from the outside. What's the secret story behind Natalie's dead exes? Will she and James survive their marriage? And do either of them deserve to? So, yeah, the hook there is brilliant. It's brilliant. So, Leodora, we love hearing debut authors journey to publication because there are so many different journeys to publication. So I'd love to hear that first and then we're going to dive into the novel itself.

[B]

It's a great question. And I think my journey was perhaps unique to most because I work in publishing. So going out on submission was weird because I knew I was submitting first and foremost agents who I knew. So I went out under a fake name and I also went out accidentally. I don't know if you know this story. I'd scheduled a bunch of emails to go out to agents in a few months time to get me to finish writing the book. Because I was publishing director, big day job, I needed some motivation. And then I got gandular fever and a bunch of other things, so I forgot about it. I was very sick for a few months until a few hours after the emails had all gone. But luckily it worked out for the best. I wouldn't recommend this.

[A]

I have never heard anyone go out on submission by accident, so this is like gold. Okay, so then what happened? Was the book done? It wasn't done. And you'd gone out on submission?

[B]

It was not done. But fortunately, and. Well, fortunately, the next day, like the next morning, I already had a few emails from agents saying, oh, I loved, you know, because I had a few pages in a query letter. Oh, we loved it. Can we see the full thing? By the end of the Friday, I'd had 12 agents who'd asked for full. So I said, I'm so sorry, I don't have that. I can send you what I have. So, yeah, it was a little bit chaotic and unconventional, but I think because I knew how to pitch a book for my day job, you know, publishing crime thrillers was my jam. I love reading crime thrillers. I know sort of what makes me excited about a book and its character and story and the really interesting emotional details. So. So I think that helped. Of course, by the time I went out on submission to publishers, I had to give up the jig and say, this is who I am. But it was, it was a fun experience, if unusual, that is.

[A]

I mean, there's so much to unpack there. So most people are dying for contacts in the industry. You know, most debut authors are like, I just need to meet a writer who can perhaps mentor me or make friends with so and so so that I get an in, so that I'm not going into the slush pile. So you had an in, but you used a fake name. Was that because of imposter syndrome? Because you wanted to know that it was good enough and that it wasn't just your position in publishing? Let's unpack that.

[B]

Yeah, great question. I think it was a little bit of both. There was definitely an element of. I don't want you to just say you want to represent me because, you know, I'm someone in publishing, and I know, and you know that I've got contacts, the retailers or xyz. But I also had never shown this book to anyone. Like, no one had read it. And although I have a history of writing little bits and bobs myself, I haven't actually written any thrillers. So I don't know if it was any good. It was a little bit of imposter syndrome, which I think, as creatives, it's very easy to sit in, and sometimes your inner voice can say, you're not good enough. This is rubbish. Why bother with it? I think always bother, always bother. Easier said than done. So, yeah, a little bit of both. But ultimately, I'm glad that I did it this way because I could feel confident that people who are responding to it responded because they genuinely liked the material, and it's a wild ride. So I think that helped.

[A]

Wow. And, okay, so you. So then how many offers of representation did you get after all of these sort of requests for fulls? And you were like, okay, I don't really have it, but this is what I have.

[B]

It was 11 or 12, so it was pretty much everyone except one. Two, actually. Yeah.

[A]

Okay. So, all right. So this is a great teachable moment, because I think so many emerging authors are just so desperate for one person to say yes. I mean, I say on the podcast, it just takes one yes, but I don't mean go with your only yes. You know, it's like, one yes can change your life, but, like, if there's other yeses or if that isn't the right yes doesn't mean you should take it. So how did you set about going, okay, this is the person that I want to represent me. What was your criteria? What was your process?

[B]

So it's interesting because every agent is so Different. I knew that I wanted someone who would be editorially hands on. There were some agents who who said this could manuscript can just go out as it is tomorrow, and some agents who had much more editorial feedback. And I'm someone who really loves feedback. It's not always easy, but I know that it's helping me improve. And I think particularly knowing that I'd be going out to publishers with my own name, I really wanted to feel confident that I'd done all the work I could. So someone who was editorially hands on was very important and someone who I knew, and this is my own business perspective, it knew was good at getting people to prioritise their submissions. Because here's a little tidbit. As an editor, there are some agents who if they send me a submission, their name pops up in my inbox, I will drop everything and dive into it immediately. And there are some agents who that doesn't happen with. So I think that was definitely also a factor. But I agree with you. I think sometimes when people get an offer it feels like, yes, absolutely, I'm just take this, no questions asked. And I actually do think that having a bad agent or bad publisher is worse than having none at all. Very privileged position for me to be saying that right now. But yeah, not all agents and publishers are created equal. I think something that writers probably also don't know is that if you do get an offer of representation through email, all the other people who have your manuscript and say, by the way, even actually before the stage of offer, if someone requests your full manuscript say hey, by the way, I've had one full requested. So when I was getting this activity going, I think I'd only had two requests for the full manuscript by the Friday morning. So I sent it out Thursday end of day. I might be getting my timings slightly mixed up, but then I emailed everyone else and was like, hey, it's been a couple of hours, I've got two full requests in. And then when I had six, I would email and say, hey, it's now six. Hey, now it's 10. So that also helps build a bit of momentum. And I don't think necessarily people know that you can do that, but it's a nice trick if you are getting bytes to get people to prioritize and read. Because again, agents are inundated. They have so many more submissions coming through. And as an editor I feel like we have so many.

[A]

Oh yeah, I mean it's, it's insane the level of, of submissions that, that agents get. Okay, so then, so then once you went out on submission, did that happen quickly again because you picked an agent who editors were going to prioritize. What did that process look like for you?

[B]

So I still had to write the second half of the book and I knew that I wanted to do that. It's possible to go out on submission with a partial. It does make your life much more difficult because a lot of publishers are like, well, we don't know how it's going to land a bit of tea. Strategically. Sometimes an agent might know the second bit of the book. This is very rare and it's very naughty. But there was a case of an agent setting something out on a partial because I knew the ending of the book wasn't very strong.

[A]

That is diabolical.

[B]

Yeah, I probably shouldn't have.

[A]

Listen, I'm going as diabolical, but it's like really smart of that agent because agents are wanting to get the author the most amount of money, the most amount of whatever. And also an, an editor can work with an author to fix up the second part of the book. I mean, maybe it's more work than what they were signing up for, but it is fixable.

[B]

It's true. So it can happen. It can happen that you can go out on a passion and get a great deal. But for me, I know that most editors and most publishers are like, we want to see the full thing. So you're immediately narrowing the number of people who are going to offer. You know, you're immediately taking people out of account. So yes, that was a couple of weeks over Christmas was most of the writing, which again I wouldn't necessarily recommend, but it was really fun giving myself some intensive time to really just focus on the story and what I wanted to do with these characters. I had my outline already, I think probably also why I finished this book. I have a lot of half finished manuscripts, but I'd never plotted one out before. Okay, if you're struggling, it might help. It's not for everyone. I know some fantastic thriller writers who are pantsers and they've got so many twists in their book that feel so cleverly premeditated, but their brain is just magic at doing them. Anyway. I'm going off on a tangent.

[A]

I love tangents.

[B]

I love a tangent. God bless me. To answer your question, after I'd finished writing it, it had been a few months, we wanted to wait and send it out around London Book fair. So in the uk that's our, I guess biggest corporate professional publishing event. So a lot of Books that get sent out around that time get some great international rights still, there's lots of buzz, you get lots of wonderful stories. So got everyone from across the world who've come in from foreign publishers and I'm going to forget all the different things that people do in publishing, but it's a great moment if you think it's going to be buzzy. So yeah, we ended up waiting until then. I can't remember what the equivalent is in the us.

[A]

I mean I think the US equivalent is the London Book Fair. But like, yeah, yeah, Frankfurt's in London. I mean I know that they get all buzzed about that as well. So. So were there more than like, was there more than one publisher interested? How did that end up looking eventually?

[B]

So in the uk my editor preempted it overnight and thank God, because I don't think my nerves could have taken it. So that meant my agent had sent it out, you know, late on the Thursday and then on Friday morning he'd said, here's a figure, great, you've got until midday to take it or it's off the table. So there was a little bit of negotiating but we ended up accepting it that same day. I'm always in awe of people who can do that. I very rarely preempted things when I was. Well, okay, well actually that's a lie. I did sometimes preempt things. Actually. Geneva Rose, when I acquired her in the UK was a preempt. Yeah.

[A]

Anyway, I mean if somebody sees something and they know they want it and you know, then amazing. And it is because I've had books out before for like six or seven months on submission and in that time you maybe get like two rejections and it's gone out to 20 editors and you're like, oh my God, for six months you're vomiting blood and then you finally get the, you know, the thing that you need. But yeah, it is, it's very, very stressful.

[B]

It's very stressful. What I do quite enjoy, which was we've been seeing a little bit more of something that been out on submission for ages and then suddenly there's like a four way auction for it, which is quite fun. I know it doesn't happen all the time. That's great. In the US it said it was slightly different. My US agent went out to actually some select editors and then there was an auction for it. Thank you to all of the editors who bid for it. It was very exciting, sort of dizzying, a dizzying experience for me, but it was great. Because I got to then talk to different teams and then about people's different vision for the book. And again, the editorial was important to me. I wanted someone who was willing to get in the weeds for the edits. And Myra Dutton is fantastic and she works very well with Joel, who's my UK editor.

[A]

So amazing. And again, like a teaching moment for our listeners is that, you know, a lot of writers just want the book to sell as is and they're going to go with the agent who goes, this doesn't actually need any work because by then you've probably been working on it for years and you're just like, for the love of all that is dear, just get this thing. Somebody take it. Just leave it. I don't want to work on it anymore. But honestly, I am always suspicious of that kind of an offer where it's just perfect to go as is. Because I don't. I don't know about you, Leodoro. I mean, you, I guess, are going to start doing readings in public, but I still edit my books years after the fact. When I'm doing a reading in public, in public, I'm like, why did I use that clunky phrasing? That's terrible. This could have been better. Why did I get the character to say this? And so even the best books can still be elevated to a certain degree, whether it's 10, 20%. So, you know, try not to fall into the trap of, okay, I don't need to do any more work on this and rather be like, what else can I do to really, really make this stick out?

[B]

It's really good advice. I actually also have to say, I think most of the books that I've published have done, have been the most successful are the ones that we've done the Mesa editorial work on.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it can sometimes feel daunting because ultimately your manuscript is a kind of baby. And so someone suggesting that your baby changes. I think it can feel like, oh, my God, how my baby's perfect. And in many ways, you know, it is for you. But there are always going to be ways to make a story, strengthen a story, and to help it sort of the message carries to readers in a more clear, compelling, yeah, gripping way. So great.

[C]

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[A]

And even, even like big bucks. Like I remember speaking to Kylie Reed for such a fun age and Sally Kim who was her editor and apparently like they went over those opening chapters over and over again. And so people go, oh, Kylie Reid, that book did so well. And so they think the book was just perfect. But like, you know, they, they had to go over those opening chapters quite a bit to get it to the point where it was so amazing. So, okay, this is a hugely ambitious debut. You know, for someone who wasn't an editor, I would be like, wow, you have got multiple POVs you've got a then and now structure, which means like multiple timelines, which is a lot of juggling. It's difficult to pull off as a debut. I mean, was it a case of you just had all this experience with it, so it was like, I know exactly what I'm doing, or was it like, I'm just gonna dive in and see how the hell this goes?

[B]

Good question. I think, interestingly, when it came to writing, I almost had to switch off my editor brain. As soon as you're thinking about the reception the book is going to get, it kills your ability to write anything. So I had to kind of just pretend that no one was going to read it and let it flow. I think I definitely end up doing things that I probably would have usually said, hey, let's maybe avoid doing this as an editor. Which is quite funny because quite a few of my authors have now read it and they've all been so phenomenally kind.

[A]

But they, like, you told me not to do this and now you're doing it.

[B]

I thought they might. I pre warned them. I said, hey, those things I might have warned against, I. I've definitely done in places. So.

[A]

But again, but again, like in one book, it's not going to work. You know, for example, we often say on the podcast, don't introduce a POV character far into the book. Like, if it's going to be a POV character, have it like early on so the reader gets used to it. And some stories you can do that, other stories you can't. There is a point at which that character becomes POV in the story, and that's in that particular book where it needs to be. So again, the book teaches you what it needs.

[B]

It's very true. And I always say this to, well, all of my authors, whenever it comes to edits or the rules of writing or the rules of what makes a good story. Story, sure, like listen to it. But you don't take on 100%. You need to have the authenticity of your own voice. So, yes, listen, yes, collaborate, but ultimately make a decision about what's right for you. Don't take in 100% of edits. I think otherwise it's not your own story that makes any sense.

[A]

No, it is. It's trying to please everyone all the time means it becomes, you know, just generic as opposed to whatever vision you had for it.

[B]

Very, very true, very true.

[A]

Yeah. Okay. So, I mean, yeah. So for our listeners who are writing multi POV stories, multi timeline stories, this is, you know, an excellent examination of the pacing with that when to go back into the past. Because a lot of the times the problem with dual I have to go dual Leodoro. Because Americans always think I'm going jewel with the J J E W E L. And I've gotten emails going, what is a jewel timeline nar narrative. I'm like, well, it's diamonds and rubies, so deal the timeline narrative. Because often when you go back into the past, it can slow down the pacing because you feel like you're being dragged back to the past. Yeah, because the writers going, wait, wait, wait. Before you understand this, you need to know this. But this book showed perfectly how a past timeline narrative can actually up the tension of the present day narrative. So were you figuring that out when you were outlining, when you were plotting? Were you going, okay, at this point, this has to go back in the past, this has got to be in the present, etc. Or was it again, sort of feeling your way intuitively through the story?

[B]

A little bit of both. Which I guess is a cop out answer to an extent. I wanted to make sure that there was a good rhythm there. So I originally had quite a rigid structure. But by the time I got quite a way into the writing, certainly towards the end and certainly in the edits, things took on a bit of a life of their own. I think when it came to the past chapters and when we're zipping back, it's always about the stakes, both literal and emotional for me. And it was really important to me that those scenes, even though they've already happened and you kind of already know where they're going, that there was still a sense of something emotionally or physically at stake, which I guess is why they're interesting. We're also learning so much more about our protagonist through them. So even though we're looking back into windows of the past, it's telling us more about our present. I think there was, I try to keep myself reasonably limited with my character count on those chapters too, because ultimately they are a bit more emotional than. I don't know if this person's going to survive the week, which is often what's happening in a more. Well, in a different. In a different kind of thriller, I guess. So it's a long winded answer. But ultimately I found my way. I found my way with it.

[A]

No, I love that. And as well, you know, I think this kind of structure serves a story where there are multiple inciting incidents. Because I think what a lot of writers struggle with is that the inciting incident if you think of the character's misbelief, the first wound is in their past, but then they starting the story in the present day. And so you need two inciting incidents. Like why is the story opening now where it is on this particular day? And then when you go back into the past, what was the inciting incident that you begin there in the past? So it's like, you know, it's got to hit all of those beats.

[B]

I mean, you said it perfectly. I suppose when I was thinking about the present day story, a lot of what I wanted to do was it's figuring out, you know, how they. How have they got to this place? That's, I suppose the inciting incident is. How would I pin it? I guess it was kind of James finding the letters, although you don't necessarily see that on the page. Whereas in the past it's this first death that happens and what it makes her feel about herself and what it makes her feel like she's capable of. It was really fun exploring those in two different boats, as it were, as they were crossing the streams.

[A]

Well, it also shows like, like the braiding of past and present because who a character is in the present is so much dependent on what they've been through in the past in terms of what they believe about themselves, the things that they were told in their childhood, or even like in teenagers or as, you know, they were growing up. And so those two are constantly in conversation with each other.

[B]

Must be. So I think when it came to writing the story, you know, a massive question to me is, you know, what would drive a woman to feel this level of rage or this much violence? So it was absolutely about then, looking at what someone's childhood might look like, what someone's previous relationships might look like. I think relationships full stop, always really interesting to me. I think you read it in the copy, you know, everyone knows what it's like to murder a partner. So that's something that most people have a familiarity with. But ultimately, relationships massively differ in terms of dynamic depending on the identities of people in the relationship. You know, differences in class, wealth, race massively shift the inherent power. And then what happens when the power suddenly feels tangibly unequal? What does that do to a person when they realize that they don't have quite the same footing? What danger does that create? What conflict does that create? I love taking power.

[A]

Dynamics are amazing in a story. And yeah, there was just. There was so much to. To love here. Something that I want to chat about as well is writing the so called unreliable narrator. And I wonder if there is a reliable narrator. Like I don't know, I feel like any first person or, or anything, whether it's third or first, like someone will think they're really self aware but there will be areas of their life that they're not self aware. But like in this particular story, we, we. And I don't want to give anything away. It's difficult to discuss this. It's so difficult to discuss without giving things away. But like what a character believes about themselves and about their past, even if it's not true. Can we speak a bit about that in terms of. Because you are. You as the writer are keeping secrets. You're keeping secrets from the reader and you are keeping secrets from your main character as well. Like you know things Natalie doesn't know. So how do you sort of balance that out as you're writing that. That calibration of the two.

[B]

It's difficult. I think I'm so hyper aware again because of my job of just how much people who love this kind of fiction, sort of suspense, psychological fiction, thrillers, how much they read. It's really difficult to surprise readers in this area of the market. So when it came to the reveals, I knew that there was a challenge there. How do I do something that feels fresh and new but just taking out the pure, hey, this is the prize of it. It became even more important to me to think about the emotional resonance of something that was going to be revealed, as it were. You know, we kind of have to care about the characters in order for people to care about whatever is whichever twist or whatever reveal comes to the fore. So that's why I ended up spending a lot of my time with Natalie, with James, with the various characters in the novel who might do things that we don't necessarily agree with. It's. How can we still get to understand them so that when something happens to them that seismic or when they learn something that shifts their worldview, we still feel it here, even if we don't agree with it. Maybe, yeah.

[A]

I mean it's difficult because you're making them relatable and you're giving them something vulnerable that the reader can connect with. Even if you maybe think they not a good person or diabolical, but you still invested somehow in, in the story. And something that I loved about this as well is how I as the reader was actively participating in the story because I had constant theories. And I feel like you've got the reader as soon as they're coming up with theories and there was, like, one plot point that I was like, oh, I definitely know how this is going to end. And then that happens. And I'm feeling very smug, and I'm like, yeah, yeah, I figured that out. And then, boom. You hit with something that you would not at all expected. So, again, it's that calibration of getting the reader interest, getting them to guess, but still surprising them.

[B]

That I think I know exactly the twist that you're talking about as well. It's sort of the. The midpoint twist, which I didn't really. I didn't really intend it for it to feel like a massive twist. It was almost a way of wrong footing, as you say, the reader who. Who knows what happened to happen in these stories. And getting people into a comfort zone before the seven other things. I've decided.

[A]

I mean, writers are like magicians, right? We're going, look over here, look over here. And we're waving something shiny off to the side while we're doing this, you know, sleight of hand that we. Hoping the reader doesn't notice.

[B]

But ultimately, I just wanted to make sure. Still, whatever was revealed, if someone goes back and reads it, it didn't feel like it was a trick. I don't know about you, I hate reading something. And they're like, this is the massive reveal. And you're like, well, you've kind of lied to me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You've not just misdirected. You've actively set this up in a way that I couldn't guess. That takes the fun out of it. Because it's fun trying to guess.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then suddenly you're like, oh, there's no way I could have guessed that then. Yeah. I certainly feel cheated as a reader, so I wanted to avoid that. I think, hopefully, with all the reveals here, when you go back and read, like, if anyone wants to. I don't reread things very often, but there are some fun Easter eggs that hope people are like, ah, I see it.

[A]

And it feels like a payoff, you know, when. When you allude to something and we call it on the podcast curiosity seeds, there's like, little things, you know, Easter eggs, curiosity seeds that you plant, and. And the reader starts joining the dots so that when something happens later, it feels inevitable and it feels like a payoff as opposed to a trick, like you say, because when that happens, the reader's just annoyed, and it's just like, okay, you've been messing with me. And there was no way I could have figured this out anyway. But it is rewarding to read it, to go out was paying attention and I picked up on this and this and then, oh, this is the payoff for that.

[B]

Yes, that's exactly it. We want to feel satisfying. It's like solving a really great pseudo couple.

[A]

And as well like you can. The great thing with that is you can go back and put those clues in as you figure out the story. You can go back, plant them, even if that wasn't what you were intending. Because sometimes a twist will kind of happen organically and it's not something you plotted and you're just like, oh my goodness, that's really good. But then you have to go back and sort of reverse engineer earlier stuff. So that, that does end up feeling like a pale.

[B]

I think interestingly with the exes in particular, most of the twists didn't change. I might have taken out some. So at the point of starting to write it, I was already trying to see things in. The midpoint twist that I think we were talking about earlier is the only one that very seismically changed, actually. And I had to then go back and slightly rewrite Natalie's chapters for reasons I won't disclose.

[A]

Yeah, but it just, it just shows how work is an evolution. You know, even if you outline, even if you plot very tightly, it is an evolution and you're going to get to some point where it's like, okay, I need to go back and this needs to become more clear.

[B]

I will say a bit of general advice to writers because sometimes writers say to me, you know, this thing is trending, I should just write that. And my first question is, well, do you enjoy that kind of thing? Because ultimately you are going to have to go back. Like the dream scenario happens. You've got an amazing agent, amazing publishing deal, you are going to go have to go back over that book so many times and if you don't genuinely love it, it is going to be like self wrenching your teeth out. So.

[A]

And even if you do love it, even if you do love it, you end up hating it and you're just like, take it away. But yeah, I agree with you. You, you really do have to love it to spend that much time with it. Leonora, we're at the end of our time. I'm not quite sure how that happened. I still had tons of questions, but thank you. Thank you so much. Joining us for our supporters again, I'm holding up the book, the X's, if you will link to it on our bookshop.org affiliate page. If you get it there. You support an independent bookstore and the podcast at the same time. And Leodora, we wish you much success with it.

[B]

Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me. I was really excited and nervous to come on. I was listening to your guests. You've had so many fantastic people on. I said, I hope I don't, I don't waffle too much.

[A]

So now we've had another fantastic guest on. So thank you.

[B]

Thank you. It's been a delight.

[A]

And that's it for today's episode. I hope you'll join us for next week's show. In the meantime, keep at it. Remember, it just takes one.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Hi there. We've got a lot we're really excited to tell you about, but I'm going to make this real quick so you can get to the episode. The Deep Dive is coming up at the end of January. The lineup of speakers is incredible and the range of topics is mind blowing. You do not want to miss out on the last Deep Dive ever. Then the beta reader matchup is open once again, with the matchups going out early in February. Sign up to kick your creative year off with a bang. Lastly, there's an amazing writer's workbook available which will make the perfect gift for you or the writer in your life. Head to our website the Shit About Writing to find out more.