← The Shit No One Tells You About Writing
The Shit No One Tells You About Writing
Worldbuilding Without Confusing Readers
00:38:15
Books with Hooks, Bianca, Carly and Cece
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- [00:00]
A
I'm absolutely thrilled to announce a six week All About Fantasy virtual retreat from 30 September to 4 November, Wednesday nights from 7 to 9pm Eastern Time. In recent years, fantasy and Romantasy have made a huge impact on the market. From seven figure deals and self published sensations to booktok, the book market has been radically transformed by the huge sales and demand for a genre that whisks us away to a new world with the turn of a page. But what does this mean for new authors? Join me and six guests who range from editors, agents and fantasy authors to answer this question and so many others. Whether you write YA fantasy, Romantasy, adult fantasy, epic fantasy, dystopian fiction or any other variation on the genre, you don't want to miss out on this amazing six weeks of learning dedicated especially to you and those writing in your genre. For more information and to book your spot, go to Biancamarae Ca and go to the All About Fantasy tab. Hi everyone. It's time to register for the next beta reader matchup with the matchup emails going out on the 8th of September. As per usual, you'll be submitting 3000 words from your work in progress and I'll be matching you up with writers in similar time zones and or genres. Many of the beta reader groups turn into writing groups with a lot of longevity, which is always marvelous to see. To sign up, go to my website Biancamarae Ca and go to the Beta reader Matchup page. I look forward to matching you. Hi there and welcome to our show the Shit no one tells you About Writing. I'm best selling author Bianca Marais and I'm joined by Cece Lehrer of Wendy Sherman Associates and Carly Waters of P.S. literary. Hi everyone. Welcome back to another Books with Hook segment. As per usual, we are diving straight in. Actually, I lie. I am an absolute liar. What we are doing first is I am showing off my beautiful big ass cup. Look at that. Look at the raccoon. For those of you who are not watching on YouTube, you really need to. It's a raccoon holding our podcast on its cell phone and it's my books on there.
- [02:33]
B
Your book cover?
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A
Yeah.
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B
Book covers on your glasses?
- [02:40]
A
Yeah, my red glasses at the bottom. So a huge thank you to Everard for making this for me. I am. I really cherish it. So, okay, so after showing.
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B
Oh my God, so cute.
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A
Now we can dive in. Okay, Cece?
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B
Yes, ma'. Am. Okay. Dear Cece, trigger warning for references to sexual assault, self harm and religious trauma. Many thanks to the Three Musketeers. We should be the Three Raccooniteers Three Musketeers of advocating for writers Bianca, Carly, and CeCe. Thank you for your invaluable tips about querying, your juicy tea about the market, and your love of dogs and trash pandas. Here's to you, Bianca. From November 2024, when my query was first featured on the podcast, my project has undergone a makeover from memoir two novel. This letter is directed to CeCe because of her love of novels about dysfunctional families and female relationships. I really do love these things. My coming of age debut, My Toxic boyfriend upmarket fiction 78,000 words depicts a girl's gradual deconstruction of evangelical indoctrination and purity culture and will appeal to readers of Monica West's revival season and Kelsey McKinney's God Spare the Girls. In short, 14 year old Gabrielle has always seen Jesus as an ideal boyfriend because of the purpose he gives to her life. But after a series of life changing events, she realizes it's time to break up. Small Town, Missouri, 2004 Gabrielle Dons a purity ring, vowing to save her first kiss for marriage and to keep her strict chaplain father's approval, even if it means repressing her own desires and ignoring how he controls her mother. When her younger sister Sophia confides in her about being sexually assaulted at a party, Gabrielle begrudgingly agrees to bury her secret, trusting God to protect Sophia instead of risking their father's wrath. On a mission trip to post apartheid South Africa, Gabrielle throws herself into converting the locals only to confront their hostility and rejection of her savior. As she witnesses the hypocrisy of the mission leaders and as she worries about her sister's safety back home, she begins to question her faith. When she returns to the States, she must face the consequences of having kept her sister secret and acknowledged the church's inconsistencies. But as her worldview shifts, not everyone welcomes her changing beliefs. When I was 12, I started wearing a purity ring. At 13 I went on a mission to South Africa only to face reverse culture shock and depression upon my return. Currently based in France, I'm pursuing a PhD in American literature. My writing has appeared in Antiheroin Chic, Discretionary Love, and New to the Scene. I am including the first five pages and would be happy to send the rest if you are interested. Thanks in advance for your time and consideration. Warm regards, Michelle Crowell.
- [05:31]
A
Thank you, Cece. Okay, how many words did that come in at and what was your take
- [05:36]
B
on it so there is a little note at the top. Substack supporters will see that that says word count 407 and then there's a parentheses that says, don't count the trash pandas against me. We would never. We would never. Okay, so I first really appreciated the context of like, this used to be a memoir and now it's a novel. I feel like that's really interesting context. We really should have started doing this sooner, you know, in books with hooks. It's just so good to know like, like, what is the origin story in terms of constructing this as an agent. Like, that doesn't belong in a query letter. If this were like a slush pile situation. But because this is like an educational show, it actually really helps. It helps inform the critique. I think it helps our listeners understand, like, the various paths that a project can take. So I really appreciated that context. So thank you to the author for sharing that. I would. This is such a small note, but just to say it, like, I would remove the. In short, like, you have your hook up top. I would remove the. In short, it. It just reads very businessy. And I think that, you know, pitch copy tends to read a little bit more like, seductive and storytelling wise, it is really not a big deal. But, hey, I'm talking to you. You're not here, but I am. I feel like I'm talking to you, so I'm, I'm sharing. Okay. Plot, plot, paragraph, right? Like, that's what I most care about. To me, that's what makes me feel like, curious to read a story, excited to scroll down and check out the execution, check out the writing. I worry that plot points are very zoomed out, almost like I'm looking at them from a distance. To the author, I want you to picture that you're on a plane. You have a window seat. I don't know if you're an aisle person or a window person. I think it says a lot about the person, the kind of person they are. But let's imagine you're having, like, you're sitting in the window, right? Like you're in the window seat and you're looking down and you're checking out, you know, the landscape below. Now imagine that you're seeing a house. Like, you know it's a house. You don't think it's a car. Like, you will know the shape, the general shape of it. It's a house, but you don't know the specific shape here. You don't know what kind of house it is. And if I were good at describing houses, I'd be, like, including sharp specifics here, like the columns or the porch or the whatever. But I'm very bad at anything physical description wise, because I'm not a visual or spatial person. But my point, the point of this very lengthy analogy is I know the general bucket of the plot points. Like, I know it's a house, but I don't know what kind of house. I don't know the specific shape. I know the mission leaders are hypocritical, but how so? Like, what does that mean? What does that look like specifically? I know she must face consequences of keeping her sister secret, but what does that look like specifically? I know that she confronts hostility, but what does that look like? I guess I think you're telling me, like, the general feel of the plot point as opposed to the specific plot point, and I really wanted to know. Everything that happens up till the midpoint climax is fair game and we should be hearing about it with specificity. I do think you have plot here, and I think that you did the right thing in making this a novel. Just because there's so much more freedom with a novel and you. I imagine that it'll be easier for you to, like, access the protagonist in a way that won't feel too close to yourself, but at the same time, like, still, still drawing from those real emotions. I'm just not sure the plot in the query letter is as dominoes tipping over with specificity as I would want it to be. Really liked the author bio. That was really awesome. And yeah, in general, thank you for sharing.
- [09:00]
A
Thank you, Cece. Okay, Carly, handing it across to you.
- [09:05]
C
All right. I love when CC and I focus on different things specifically because I love focusing on the, like category and the title and all of that, like, framing piece. So I'm going to focus on that for my analysis. So they call this a coming of age debut, upmarket fiction. Very interesting. And then the title, My Toxic Boyfriend. So I feel like all of this is a bit at odds with each other and the Toxic Boyfriend. I don't think this title works that well. I don't actually think it tells me that much about the actual story because this seems to have a lot more to do with travel, which we'll get to in terms of, you know, her leaving the country than it does with the boyfriend piece. I know it's like dismantling purity culture and all of that, but I definitely think the title has to go. I don't have a better title right now just because I haven't read the whole book, of course. But I definitely think we need a new title. I spent a lot of time thinking about is this pitch upmarket fiction? Is this pitch for adults? Because when something's coming of age and it's in the youth perspective, everything depends on how the youth perspective is written, whether it feels like it's written for a fellow youth or whether we feel like it's written for an adult. And so I obviously, you know, the pitch is the pitch and we'll get to the pages later, but I just wasn't fully convinced that we had really, like, committed either way to it necessarily being a market fiction, mostly because, as CeCe was kind of getting at it, is very character driven, even though it seems like there's a lot of plot happening. And so that piece, I'm a little bit kind of confused about whether. Whether it is actually upmarket fiction. I'm assuming its position is upmarket fiction because we're dealing with some, like, larger themes about, you know, dismantling our worldview, which is like a very important and deep thing. But a lot of it also depends on the execution and everything like that. So this is all to say, if I saw a query like this in my inbox, I would right away be looking at the comps. Because even if it's like, felt a little kind of messy, let's just say coming of age market fiction, but a title that seems like romance almost, I'd be looking at the comps to see how does this author think about themselves in relation to kind of what they're writing about. And I think the comps are great. So that kind of suggested, okay, I think this author has a better sense of what they're doing then they know how to pitch it, which is always a good thing, right? Because we can always change the framing of the pitch. But I still don't understand fully how much time we're spending in each section. Like, how much time are we spending at home, how much time are we spending abroad, and then how much time when she comes home? I think that frames a lot of it, because if the whole novel hinges on what's at stake when she changes, and if she changes her worldview, then I need to know at what point that's happening in the novel. And I'm not entirely clear on that. But ultimately, I love this first person experience to bolster the story, as cece said, it is interesting that this was a memoir and now it's a novel and to throw a wrench in the whole thing and maybe we can talk about this later in the pages, but, like, I wonder if this person ever thought about writing it as a dual timeline with a dramatic present day plotline about family estrangement. And that way I think it would more solidify itself within the upmarket space as opposed to just a chronological coming of age story. But that's a wrench in the plan and the author's not here to talk about that, so.
- [12:28]
A
Thanks, Kali. I'm thinking of memoir now, but, like, for example, with Eat, Pray, Love, you knew based on each of the words in the title exactly which part of the journey was going to be taking up that story, right?
- [12:40]
C
Yes, exactly. And I think that this title is not doing anything for us to tell us about, like, how we're spending our time. And I think if the title was a little bit more, I don't know, just like, suggestive of what the book is actually going to be about or where we want to go, I think that would also help us understand about where we're spending most of the time, because I think it makes a huge difference if we're spending a lot of time in South Africa versus most of our time in the US and the title should reflect that.
- [13:05]
A
Yeah, and it's interesting to me that a lot of times this is viewed by the person as a hero's journey, when in fact it is a white savior narrative journey, which is very interesting. So I look forward to seeing those elements of this book as well. Okay, Cece, will you please tell us what was in the pages?
- [13:25]
B
Yeah, for sure. So we begin. We're at a red lobster. Our protagonist receives a ring from her dad. It fits just right. She thinks that, you know, her mom must have helped him with the sizing. They're on a father daughter date. She, you know, really wants to fit in. Being at Red Lobster is really special for her. Her father's essentially.
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A
This is.
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B
This is like CC editing, okay? Because the protagonist does not feel this way, but her father is essentially mansplaining life to her. Like, he's just going on lots of, like, this is how things are. Everything from, like, the origin of Greek words to everything else. As her father's talking, she has a vision of Jesus. You know, like, she thinks of Jesus and she really wants to be good. She wants to be like, Unlike the other 14 year olds, she wants to be pious and good. So the server comes and asks them, you know, how you doing? And they need some more time to order. Her dad's like, you can have lobster if you want, but she doesn't want to have lobster because she's heard that they.
- [14:26]
A
They.
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B
They scream when they're thrown into boiling water. And her dad says, I'm gonna get the tilapia. She's like, I'm gonna have the same as you again. This is all because she really wants to fit in. Then she notices that someone arrives at the restaurant, and it is someone she used to be friends with. Her name is Ashley, a really popular girl in school, but they're no longer friends, and she feels like she doesn't like that Ashley's there because she feels embarrassed. And she doesn't want Ashley to go to her table. She doesn't want her dad to say that, you know, they don't come to Red Lobster often because it's probably super normal for Ashley, but it's not normal for her. And then her dad asks, like, do you want to pray? And she. She looks at Ashley and realizes that Ashley will see her praying. And then she decides, you know, she tells her dad, like, you go ahead. And that's how the pages end.
- [15:10]
A
Okay, Cece, thanks so much for that. Right. Tell us your take on them.
- [15:14]
B
Okay. My take. So small, but I'll start with the small from the top. The first line reads, the fish ring winked at me from its pleat in the jewelry box, comma, recognizing me, comma, choosing me, period. I would make it just the first clause. I think that makes it a stronger sentence. Typically, stronger sentences just are a little bit more impactful in terms of first lines. Is 100% a matter of taste. I'm sharing my taste. I really like that the protagonist's interiority was sharing information from a. There was just so much vulnerability. Right. And I really like that, you know, a key element in writing interiority is including vulnerability. At the same time, I wanted more depth. Like, here are examples. So she figured out that her mom must have helped her dad with the sizing, because that's what would explain the fact that the ring fits. Does she like the fact that her mom helped? Was she hoping dad would do it by himself? Like. Like something else? I guess I wanted, like, sometimes in the story you move forward, sometimes you move deeper. I wanted a little bit depth in certain references, like certain interesting details that the author shared. But for my taste, this is very much a CC taste thing. I. I like depth, especially for coming of age. She mentions like, that she wants to look nice for the father, daughter, date, and I love that we're getting her place in the world. She wants to look nice. She wants to fit in, which means she doesn't often feel like she does. I just wanted more layers to that, you know, I. I wanted. And at times you do this. There was a moment where she's listening to her dad speak, and she. She says. And she doesn't say this, but she thinks that. She doesn't interrupt. Instead, I nodded, trying to listen attentively, wanting him to think the history of the world meant as much to me as it did to him. Wanting him to think I was smart and wise and beautiful. Because when he thought that I had his attention. And that's so awesome. Like, what an awesome, like, moment of adding depth. I just wanted more of that. I think it's important to. Whenever I'm asking for depth, I always do try to highlight the moments where the author's doing it to be like this. This thing. You're doing more of this because it's awesome and you're doing a really good job. When Ashley arrives, I think that you're leaking the tension. Like, I love that Ashley arrived.
- [17:27]
C
Yay.
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B
A girl she used to be friends with. A girl has more power than her. Brilliant. But your story splaining. She looks at the. At the entrance, the restaurant entrance, and there. And the line reads, the girl brushed a strand of hair away, revealing a cherub nose and an even sprinkly of freckles. Ashley Loretti, one of the popular girls from school who used to be my friend. Like, that is way too Explanation heavy. You're leaking the tension, and you shouldn't have to. Like, I'd dole it out in a way that leverages curiosity. First we see her experiencing the emotion of seeing Ashley, whether it's panic or something else. Then we get a reference to an unnamed her. It's her. Like, who's the unnamed her?
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A
Ooh.
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B
And then, like, a beat or two later. I'm not talking about, like, lengthening it for a paragraph or anything, but, like, a beat or two later, her name and. And maybe she could think something like, if this had.
- [18:14]
A
If, If.
- [18:14]
B
If she had run into her six months ago, it would have been seeing a friend. But now it's no longer that. Instead of being, like, the popular girl who I used to be friends with, which is a little story splaining in to my taste. So, yeah. And these are, like, opportunities, you know? Remember when someone walks into a room and your protagonist has big, strong feelings about them, remember to really leverage curiosity and not just context. Context is very important. Context gives us clarity. But the job of a story is not just to give clarity. It's also to make us feel really curious, I think, in terms of whether this is starting in the right place. The truth is, I don't know. Is Ashley meant to be the disruption? I think she is. And I think it actually might lead to what I consider to be a requirement of the disruption, which is revealing power dynamics, shifting power dynamics, and that changing the story forward expectation. So if Ashley is a disruption and the disruption will do that, then I think you can cut a lot of what's happening before. There's just a lot happening until we get to Ashley. And yeah, we need some of it, the interaction with the waiter to show her place in the world, her dad talking a lot. But it can be compressed so we get to Ashley sooner so that we can, like, see the disruption happening sooner. This is really strong. Like, I. I like stories with more psychological acuity, whether it's a memoir or coming of age. But this is the genre where, like, I. I'm yours if you give me a really interesting premise, a really fascinating character, and lots and lots of psychological acuity. But I need a lot. I think part of it is like the expectation of a book when we're watching a movie. I don't know, it's just so much more plot based and kind of like more of a passive endeavor. A little bit more passive where you're like watching and taking it in. But since I'm engaging with my imagination, like the, the story is coming to life in my imagination, I really do need more depth. And maybe this isn't the author's vision, and that's okay because there are lots of different types of books out there. Not to say that she has to follow my taste, but in case you're listening and in case this is helpful, I hope it is. And thank you for sharing.
- [20:11]
A
Thank you, Cece. Okay, Carly, handing it across to you.
- [20:15]
C
So just continuing on with my thought process of is this actually a book for adults? You know, I was. I was really trying to figure out, you know, who is this for? If somebody just reads the first five pages, would they think this is an adult book? And as I started, I was thinking, no, you know, I was really thinking, like, this feels like ya. This feels like ya. When does the self awareness kick in? Because otherwise it's just a first person account of a child's life chronologically, which, again, is like, less likely to be upmarket fiction. As I always say, you know, we're only looking at five pages and many things are going to happen in this novel which could solidify it in the upmarket category. But Based on these five pages, I really wasn't convinced. And then we got to this line, which made me think, okay, if we could do more of this, I think this could work as this category. So as cece mentioned, she has a reflection of Jesus and she's kind of reflecting on it and she says the only thing I couldn't get quite right was the odor of burning flesh. Though I figured it probably smelled something. Something like the charred chicken mom accidentally left in the oven a few months ago. Other than that, the idea of Christians on fire was easy to imagine, just a modification of the same scenes that played over and over in my mind before I went to sleep each night. After years of practice, imagining eternal hellfire came naturally. That to me was like a little bit quirkier, a little bit more interesting, a little bit more reflective and self aware of all the messaging and all the idolatry and all the imagery that's came at her entire life and her just kind of subtly reflecting on that kind of quirkiness of it and that she's not taking everything at face value. I really liked that voice in that section. And if this whole thing could be written with a little bit more of that kind of quirky self awareness, then I think we're more in the upmarket territory. But as it stands, it definitely felt more YA to me, especially when the best friend comes into this or the former best friend or former friend comes into the scene, the classmate, because it feels just very high school. And so if you want to elevate it, I'd really focus on the writing that you did in that line that I highlighted.
- [22:13]
A
All right, thank you so much for that. Before we move on to the next query, first a message from our sponsors.
- [22:19]
D
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- [25:20]
A
back handing it across to you now.
- [25:22]
C
Dear Carly, I'm excited to submit my debut novel, the125,000 words for your consideration. It's the first in a planned four book character driven speculative romance series where a death doula begins to develop a dangerous and intimate power with death itself. The novel asks what would you do if the only way to survive was to embrace the power that could kill you 1500 years in the future? Matcha is a death doula living with the Kunu, sexually empowered matriarchal villages built on peace, pleasure and ritual. But the safety fractures when an unknown force strikes from the shadows. When Matcha is attacked in her own backyard, she believes she is a random victim. Still shaken, she reluctantly agrees to self defense training with Hali, a lethally skilled and dangerously alluring guard. He is everything her world is not, cold, controlled and shaped by violence, yet Matcha finds herself drawn to him. As their training intensifies, Matcha unknowingly awakens a dark ancestral power tied to a devastating prophecy that binds her to death itself. Soon, death begins whispering directly in her ear, but Matcha cannot tell whether it means to save her or claim her. When her best friend is mistaken for Matcha and brutally attacked, the truth becomes undeniable. Matcha is not just another victim, she is the ultimate target. To save herself and her loved ones, Matcha must choose between trusting the brutal training that could keep her alive or surrendering to the power awakening inside her, risking her life to claim a birthright that may demand her death. I'm a sex therapist with a private practice in Burlington, Ontario and former journalist. When I am not working or writing, you can find me recharging at my lakeside cottage, doing witchy rituals in the woods with my friends or dancing to K Pop with my nieces. Thank you very much for your time and consideration. Warmly Kendra.
- [27:01]
A
Thank you very much. Kali. Okay, what was that word count there?
- [27:05]
C
All right, this one came in at 321 words. The book itself though, 125,000 words. Very, very long. And this is also the first, first book in a planned series. So we know that we have a lot that is going to happen here. I think we need to put the first book in the planned series at the bottom in the author bio paragraph. I think it would be more helpful there because we really need to, really need to focus on the first book in the series. We also don't have any comps and we need the comps at the top to help ground it in the more contemporary marketplace. I also think we need a new title. I feel like for the past ever number of episodes I've just been like, new title, new title, new title, new title. One of the things I probably should ask for when we do these welcoming the submissions to the show is asking people's alternate titles because then I can vote on what I think would actually be your best title because I don't think that this one is working. Okay, so in the place of the hook we have the death Doula begins to develop a dangerous and intimate power with death itself. The novel asks, what would you do if the only way to survive was to embrace the power that could kill you? You? I think what I'm struggling with here is this seems like the overarching hook for the entire series as opposed to this book specifically. I want to know more about what's going to actually happen in this book because you know, we're not really getting at any of the actual plot here. There's also the unknown force strikes from the shadows. Again, really vague, right? Like, you know, are we to assume this is death itself? And if death isn't personified, if death is, I don't know, like they call it a force. You know, I'm kind of imagining it as something kind of like weather oriented. Like I just don't know how to visualize this unknown force in the shadows. And if it's not personified, do we have a villain? And if we don't have a villain, like do we have a story? I guess that's what I'm kind of grappling with. I do like the part where she actually gets to the more personal and character forward piece instead of the theory forward piece. When she says attacked in her own backyard, you know, shaken, gets into the self defense training, meets this handsome guard. That's really the main plot. And so really based on this word count, I don't really understand what's happening in the story. 125,000 words. A woman being attacked, training for a fight against an immortal force. That seems really simple, right? So, like, what. What are we spending our 125,000 words on? I'm not entirely sure. And because this is one of my primary categories, I'm having a bit of trouble kind of like pointing at maybe exactly specifically what we need to do here. But I think it comes to. To the crux of we're trying to pitch a series when we really need to be pitching one book. And I think if we really tried to focus on the one book here, we would be in better shape. But I think it's a great bio. And again, I would put the planned series in the author bio, actually, and not at the top.
- [29:58]
A
Thank you, Carly. Okay, Cece, what's your take?
- [30:01]
C
Alrighty.
- [30:02]
B
So, I mean, 125,000 words is very long. Not saying you can't do it, but I just want to agree with that. It is a challenge. The question that you're saying your novel asks, what would you do if the only way to survive was to embrace the power that could kill you? That makes no sense to me, because to survive, you have to embrace the power that kills you, so you die either way. I feel like it's meant to sound like an impact line, but when you break it down, or at least when my brain breaks it down, I can't get to the substance of it, the core. So I didn't quite get that if I'm being totally honest. And it wouldn't be a big deal again if it were a query, because I would just be like, that's fine. I'll just read the plot paragraph to. To understand. But. But I do think that it helps to have, like, really meaty lines with protein and not lines that, in my opinion, aren't quite saying much. I think you did a really good job of establishing her place in the world, and I think you did a really good job of establishing the inciting incident, the fact that she's attacked. And then you do a really good job establishing the chemistry between the protagonist and the love interest, because this. This person who's helping her with self defense is clearly, like, a big contrast to her lethally skilled and dangerously alluring guard. Everything. Her world is not cold, controlled. So I like that contrast because it, like, promises tension, and tension is an essential part of chemistry. So that was really good. But then. Then you started being vague. I feel like I'm gonna give a name to the vague disease that I think affects all writers when they're writing Their query letter. Most writers, I should say, and I empathize, you know, you already wrote the whole book. You already wrote 125,000 words. There's specificity in the book. Now you're supposed to condense it into, like, 300 words. Lots of empathy. But yes, yes, you are supposed to. Like, death begins whispering directly in her ear. What is it saying? Like, why do we not know that? Is it telling her to kill other people? Because that's. That's a plot point. You know, I. You started becoming vague, and I think people do this usually in my experience, people do this because they don't want to give away the goods. But we're always saying this, like, don't be afraid of giving away the goods as long as it's happening before the climax. Yeah, I guess I wanted to see more specificity in the plot points, which actually connects with my note in the other query letter as well. Especially when it comes to her agency. Like, she's attacked and she decides to take the self defense classes. That's great because it's something that happens to her and then her response to that. But after that, I'm not really seeing plot points that have to do with her agency. And that's really important because you want the protagonist to be making the story happen in addition to having the story happen to the protagonist. Like, you want. Like, it's supposed to work both ways, you know, Also, if anyone is also Brazilian or I guess anyone also speaks Portuguese and is reading this title and you're laughing. I laughed a lot, too. I am not pronouncing it on purpose, because I can't, because I will start giggling. It'll feel so inappropriate. So, yeah, that's my. That's my final note.
- [33:01]
A
Thank you, Cece. Okay, Carly, let's see what was in those opening pages.
- [33:07]
C
All right. Yes, I did some Googling around the title, cece, and you know, I think that a lot of people can put the two and two together here about a matriarchal society and what the word means. Well, I'll let all of. I'll be pg. Am I being PG today, guys? What's wrong with me?
- [33:22]
A
Why. Why are we being pg?
- [33:24]
B
I don't get the connection between the matriarchal society and the title, though.
- [33:28]
C
No. Okay.
- [33:29]
A
What is the title?
- [33:30]
B
No, no, it's not a word, guys. It's not a word we can say.
- [33:34]
C
No, okay, okay. It's.
- [33:36]
B
It's the sound of the.
- [33:37]
A
It's.
- [33:38]
B
The first syllable means something that we cannot say, and then the second Syllable sounds. It's. It's kind of like in or on, depending on the context.
- [33:48]
A
Yeah.
- [33:48]
B
And so the two together like that. It's. No, but not matriarchal. No connection to that.
- [33:54]
C
Doesn't it mean ladybirds?
- [33:57]
B
No, that's not what it means. No.
- [33:59]
C
Okay.
- [33:59]
B
I thought it means. No, it means a part. We all have. All humans.
- [34:04]
D
Okay.
- [34:05]
B
Yeah. I'll tell you after we stop recording. It's very inappropriate for the show. There are. Sometimes people have children in the car with them.
- [34:11]
A
Okay, all right. We all have butts.
- [34:13]
B
So then we'll come back to this.
- [34:16]
A
Yeah, butt parts.
- [34:17]
C
Okay.
- [34:18]
A
Right, Carly, carry on.
- [34:21]
C
Here is what the story encompasses. We meet our main character, and she. She. We learn about kind of the fact that she is very connected to death. We learn that in the womb she was cradling in a fetus that had died. So presumably she was meant to be a twin. And so she feels very closely connected to death. She has been called to do something from her sister. And she is on her bicycle. She has a kit with her, and she's going to find her sister to presumably do what her powers do. She says, I came as soon as I can. The sister says, follow me. They take them to a person who was attacked. We find out it was a guard who was attacked with a dagger. And it's very shocking because in this culture, you know, there's not a lot of discord and violence. So everybody is quite shocked. There are healers there, but I think we're supposed to imagine that her job is not a healer because, you know, she's connected to death. We know through the query letter that she's a death doula, and she just talks about kind of like, you know, the smell and what she's seeing and how she's feeling. Her stomach being a bit off, and then she's surprised that the guard is actually still awake. And he kind of shouts, you know, they're coming for us, all of us. And kind of is, you know, dramatically full of outbursts and. And that's kind of where we end.
- [35:41]
A
Okay, so give us your take on whether we're starting off at the right place.
- [35:45]
C
Okay. So the biggest thing for me was supposed to be, was it 1500 years in the future? Let me look at the query letter again. 1500 years in the future. So this is to be an imagined world. Okay. And when you play something 1500 years in the future, you have to do a lot of world building here. And I was very confused because at one point she's on her Bicycle, going to her sister. And then she says, I could have teleported. I'm like, girl, why did you teleport? You could have teleported. Why were you on your bike? I guess I really just wanted to understand the world. And I really liked that there was such an emphasis on plot, right? It's like, okay, let's get to the situation. There's somebody dying. She has a role to play. But I also didn't fully understand what her job is. You know, again, her job is a death doula. She doesn't really describe it in the pages that I could see in a way that felt really clear. So I think just, like, more clarity about what exactly she was hoping to accomplish there, why she was called, and the world itself. Like, is this our world or not? How is it similar? How is it different? I just didn't feel like I was brought into the world really smoothly in a way that I felt like that makes sense. That makes sense. Like, you have to bring us into the world piece by piece with this world building. And there were, you know, just examples of words that are capitalized, meaning. You know, those were proper nouns. So then I should know what that is. And then when I don't know what that is, as the reader, you know, am I supposed to just gloss over it? Am I supposed to kind of contextualize it within the sentence of what I think it is? Am I supposed to just, you know, move on to the next line and trust the reader? So there was just a lot of those instances where I just wasn't fully in it. And I just really wish that I understood what her powers did. Maybe it was just too subtle for me. And I really just want to know how that felt within her when she feels called to do her powers. So I guess at the end of the day, for me, it was just the world building wasn't on the page in a way that felt like it was really tangible for me.
- [37:42]
A
Thank you, Carly. Okay, Cece, your take.
- [37:45]
B
There's a lot that's working really well. Like, there's a line. We meet her sister, right? So her sister arrives, and the line reads. The sharp specifics to describe her sister are dark eyes, impeccable posture, and an air of superiority. Like, that's really good. I love seeing those. Those kinds of sharp specifics when I read pages. It promises me. It essentially tells me, like, this author, like, spent a lot of time in these pages and, you know, made sure that the writing was really strong. So I. So a lot's working. I did not Get a sense of her place in the world. I think getting a sense of the protagonist's place in the world is very important. In the early pages. Sometimes, you know, we hear a lot. Writers hear a lot of, well, I couldn't connect with the character. I couldn't connect with the character. I just couldn't connect with the character. And sometimes they'll hear things like, well, you have this action happening, but then, I don't know. I don't know why I should care. Let me talk about caring. Caring doesn't mean empathy. Nothing to do with empathy. Caring means curiosity. Caring means I am intrigued. Caring means I'm fascinated. Caring means I want to know selfishly. That's what curiosity is. It is a selfish desire to want to know more. And you have a great premise where the protagonist is connected to death and is being summoned. She has a role in her community where if death happens, she has to be there. And we know there's context that death doesn't happen that often in her, you know, peaceful community. Great, great. But how does she feel about her role? How does she view her sense of place in the world? That has to do with power dynamics, right? Like, what power does it give her? What pressure does it put on her? What power does she feel others have over her? Like, it seems her entire community depends on her being present. When there's a death, which, again, I understand, doesn't happen very often, but it still happens. Is it a burden? Does it make her feel special? Both conflicted? How has the sense of.
- [39:39]
A
Of.
- [39:40]
B
Of self evolved over time? We're not talking paragraphs and paragraphs of this. We're talking a few carefully placed lines that will make me feel like she has existed for a long time. Way before page one. You know, a protagonist that we connect with is a protagonist that feels so real on the page. You are like, this is a person. Carly always says this, that I could run into it in the grocery store. And that comes from meatiness and frameworks in her interiority, which you have included. I highlighted a framework that you pulled up. I loved it. I'll share it with our listeners. She's dealing with the death, which is violent. And there's a line that reads, I've only shepherded a handful of bloody deaths, and every one of them has made me queasy. Pulling up that framework of. I have done this before. Not often. Every single time, I was queasy. Brilliant. Not that many words. Not that many words. But it's a framework and it's smart. And you did a really good job. And now I also need, doesn't have to be right after this. It can be another in another location. But I also need how she feels about her place. For example, the fact that she feels queasy. Does she feel like she's letting people down, that she's being inadequate? Maybe the person, the death doula who came before her was so much better than she was her mentor. She'll never live up to her. Maybe it's something else. I'm guessing the point is not me guessing, right. The point is you revealing more about her sense of place in this world as it relates to power dynamics and the pressure that is on her and her story. Forward expectations of her role. I really wanted that. The good news is if you know your character, it's actually an easy fix, you know, as easy as it comes in storytelling anyway. If you don't know your character, then you're going to spend some time, some more time figuring her out. And that's okay. And it's fun. It's fun work for every author I know anyway. But it's not like an overhaul. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, in that I think that for listeners of our show where I often say overhaul, demolition, build again, I feel like that's good news. I'm assuming here, but hey, I hope so.
- [41:43]
A
All right, thank you so much to Carly and Cece, as always, for their incredible insights. If you do want to submit to the segment, go to the Shit About Writing and look for the Books with Hooks page. And again, as we are now saying, try and give us some context up front. Alternate titles perhaps if you're not too sure about your title, you can include that in the contextual information. Pretty much. You know what what you need from us most. All right, next week we'll be back with another author interview and two weeks after that we're back with another Boxwortho. Thank you so much, Colleen, CeCe. Bye. CeCe Lira is a literary agent at Wendy Sherman Associates. If you'd like to query CC, please refer to the submission guidelines@www.wsherman.com. carly Waters is a literary agent at P.S. literary Agency, but her work on this podcast is not affiliated with the agency and the views expressed by Carly on this podcast are solely that of her as a podcast co host and do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, policies or position of P.S. literary Agency. I'm absolutely thrilled to announce a six week All About Fantasy virtual retreat from 30 September to 4 November Wednesday nights from 7 to 9pm Eastern Time. In recent years, fantasy and romanticy have made a huge impact on the market. From seven figure deals and self published sensations to booktok. The book market has been radically transformed by the huge sales and demand for a genre that whisks us away to a new world with the turn of a page. But what does this mean for new authors? Join me and six guests who range from editors, agents and fantasy authors to answer this question and so many others. Whether you write YA fantasy, romantasy, adult fantasy, epic fantasy, dystopian fiction or any other variation on the genre, you don't want to miss out on this amazing six weeks of learning dedicated especially to you and those writing in your genre. For more information and to book your spot, go to Biancamarae Ca and go to the All About Fantasy tab. Hi everyone, it's time to register for the next next Beta Reader Matchup, with the matchup emails going out on the 8th of September. As per usual, you'll be submitting 3000 words from your work in progress and I'll be matching you up with writers in similar time zones and or genres. Many of the beta reader groups turn into writing groups with a lot of longevity, which is always marvellous to see. To sign up, go to my website Biancamarae Ca and go to the Beta Reader Match up page. I look forward to matching you.