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- [00:00]
Nick Loper
Hey, real quick. This week only is the annual BC Stack Bundle Sale. It's your chance to get over 60 products related to growing your business for less than a dollar each. The theme this year is Scale. How to get more traffic, viewers, listeners, customers and ultimately sales and profit in your business. And it's a chance to get my all new smash workshop training for half off. Smash stands for scale my awesome side hustle. Plus you get access to the 60 plus other BC stack products.
- [00:28]
Jane Havens
As a bonus. If you want to look at it.
- [00:30]
Nick Loper
That way, the Smash Training cover the three levers you can pull to scale your business tactics I've picked up over the last 12 years over the last 650 plus episodes of the side Hustle Show. But in addition to that, you've got resources on digital products, AI, email marketing, social media, YouTube and video, paid ads, SEO and tons more. I order this thing every year. I always pick up a few new ideas to test out. Make sure to order today through my Referral link@sidehustlenation.com BC Stack Bravo Charlie Stack. And that's important because doing so makes your purchase 100% refundable through the Side Hustle Nation satisfaction guarantee. If you don't find 49 bucks worth.
- [01:09]
Jane Havens
Of value in the stack again, that's.
- [01:12]
Nick Loper
Sidehustlenation.com BCStack for a great bundle of.
- [01:16]
Jane Havens
Products on how to grow your business.
- [01:18]
Nick Loper
But you gotta hurry because this offer ends June 7th at midnight central. Check it out today. Side hustlenation.com bcstack and now onto the show. Here's an oldie but a goodie from the archives from the side Hustle Show Greatest hits collection. What's up?
- [01:34]
Jane Havens
What's up? Nick Loper here. Welcome to the Side Hustle show because you are the CEO of your own life. In this episode you're going to meet Jane Havens who went from being a quote bored stay at home mom to running a multi six figure business in just a few short years. Jane, welcome to the show.
- [01:51]
Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to chat with you today.
- [01:55]
Well, me as well. This is kind of a two for one episode because we're going to learn about starting a service business from scratch. In Jane's case, that's the snoozefest.com I love that domain name where she helps babies and toddlers sleep through the night. Or maybe more accurately helps parents with their babies and toddlers sleeping through the night. Definitely a big pain point for moms and dads everywhere. That business started earning thousands of dollars A month. That's pretty cool. And then part two in the two part episode is the addition of an online course component, other people how to do what she did. So stick around in this one to learn how she's grown both sides of this thing and how you can borrow some of the same tactics in your own business. Notes and links for this episode are@side hustlenation.com Jane It's J A Y N E. While you're there, make sure to download my free list of 101 service business ideas that you might be able to apply some of Jane's same strategies to and get those creative juices flowing. So Jane, 65 grand in your first year. Tell me about the service that you decide to offer and how you found customer number one.
- [03:02]
I launched my business just a few years ago prior to becoming a sleep consultant. I worked in catering sales before I had kids. So I had a bit of a sales background. But when my son was born I decided that I wanted to stay home with him. I loved being a stay at home mom, but after a few years, actually it was around the time that my daughter was born about four years later, I was sort of feeling burnt out from the stay at home mom life and was really itching to have something to exercise my brain and to just like get the creative juices flowing again. So I decided sort of on a whim to get my certification to work as a sleep consultant. This was something that I happened to be really good at with my own kids. I got both my kids sleeping through the night at a pretty early age and I was always sort of the one that friends would come to asking for advice. They wanted to know how to get their kids to sleep through the night. And frankly it was really just a hobby of mine for years. What I thought was going to be just sort of a passion project, something to keep me busy while I was caring for my two young kids. Really turned into a pretty legit business pretty quickly, which was exciting. And where did I find my first client? In a Facebook group. You know, there are tons of moms Facebook groups either based on location or hobbies or interests. And I was just sort of lurking around in Facebook groups and I would hear parents complaining or seeking advice regarding their children's sleep and I would just chime in and and sort of answer their question. Is really what I did. I would answer their question, provide a ton of really solid advice and then also let them know that I was a professional in this field and that I could help them one on one if they were seeking that type of support.
- [04:57]
I didn't know there was such thing as a baby whisperer certification, sleep consultant certification. Do you think that was important for building credibility or your own confidence?
- [05:10]
I asked myself the same question. I was really well read in this topic because I had two kids of my own. I worked really hard to get them sleeping and part of me felt like, why do I even need to take a certification course? Is this really necessary? Can I just do. I'm already doing it. Can I just charge for it? You know, that thought definitely crossed my mind. But I do think that it was really important to take a course for a few reasons. One, it sort of put me in the position to take myself more seriously and to have confidence that I was trained, I was qualified, and I was a professional in this field rather than just sort of winging it. I also think that there's a lot to be learned. Even if you think you know everything, there's always more to be learned. Just in my life, case in particular, my two kids, I taught them to sleep independently when they were about three or four months old, and they have been solid sleepers ever since. I never personally struggled with an 18 month old trying to climb out of a crib or a three year old that wanted a parent to stay next to them while falling asleep. These were things that I knew that other families struggled with, but I had personally never gone through them. So it was really valuable to have the education to prepare me to support families that had been through other struggles that I personally had never gone through.
- [06:30]
Okay. Yeah, I like that. Combining something that people were already asking you questions about, something that you've gone through yourself, but not the full spectrum of it. It's not like you were struggling with this for years and years and years. So it's like, okay. There are other challenges that potential customers might know about. And then this investment in your own training, education and saying, okay. And I imagine from the perspective of a prospective client to, I mean, if you're comparing two potential service providers, two potential sleep consultants, in this case, like, yeah, all is being equal. I'll take the one who did the certification training. I don't know. So that makes sense. As a prospective customer, that little badge of approval or seal of approval would make some sense. The next thing that you mentioned was I was in these moms Facebook groups and people were asking questions or complaining about their kids sleeping. And so it's kind of just you know, slowly raising your hand and saying, hey, well, have you, have you tried this? Have you you know what, what's working, what's not working, kind of Q and A. Is that how the conversation started?
- [07:34]
The way I always approach it is I wanted to establish myself as an authority within these communities. So when I was first getting my business off the ground, I really spent time just making my name known. I wasn't necessarily trying to land clients right off the bat. I just wanted people to trust me. So I was providing a of really solid advice. You know, if somebody was posting that their 8 month old was up every 45 minutes and they were losing their mind and they just didn't know what to do, I would chime in and say, hi, I'm a certified sleep consultant. I specialize in both infant and toddler sleep. My guess is that your 8 month old is waking up hourly because they don't know how to fall asleep independently. And when a baby doesn't know how to fall asleep independently, then they're not properly positioned to fall back to sleep independ, which leads to multiple wake ups throughout the night. You know, my suggestion would be to teach your child how to fall asleep independently so that they are better positioned to do that work in the middle of the night when they briefly rouse. If you'd like some guidance and support through this process, reach out to me. You know, here's my website, here's a direct link to schedule a free 15 minute phone call. That little calendar which I think you use as well, is my lifeline. So, you know, giving people access to reach out to me if they wanted it, while also providing a ton of really valuable free advice, I think is what made people trust me and want to reach out to me and hire me.
- [09:08]
Okay, yeah, it sounds like you have posted this dozens and dozens of times. You got the script down. I like this part about introducing yourself as a certified sleep consultant, like just coming in, you know, to rise above the noise that might happen inside of a parenting Facebook group, like where everybody's just throwing opinions at you. It's like, okay, that one little line establishing some authority and then going into the advice and then the call to action for the free 15 minute consult at the end. That works. Do you ever find yourself posting proactively? Would that be allowed? Would that be considered spammy to say here's the top five tips that you need to know at the top of the group or I don't know if that type of post would get any sort of engagement.
- [09:50]
When I was first getting started, all the Facebook groups sort of have different roles. Some allow a little bit of Self promotion. Others definitely don't. I did reach out to a lot of admins of Facebook groups that I was active in and I would ask some of them, hey, would it be okay if I did maybe a monthly free Q and A for your community? You know, maybe I would just introduce myself as a certified sleep consultant. And on the first Wednesday of every month, I will be here for an hour to answer everybody's questions. So I did that for a little bit. I definitely think that it helped again to build authority. I don't know how many clients came from that, but it was good. Just sort of word of mouth and name recognition. So, you know, I don't regret spending that time doing that, but I don't really do much of that anymore, to be honest.
- [10:40]
Yeah, I can see people do. I mean, it's the more times people see your name and then they associate that with sleep consulting, the better. It's all little touch points to establish credibility. And we've seen some examples really of people doing similar things in entrepreneurial Facebook groups. For example, one example that I always point to is Steve Stewart in the podcast editing space and specifically the podcast editing for personal finance podcasts inside of the fincon community. Anytime there was a podcasting question, either he would be on top of it, he would respond right away, or people couldn't rush to tag him fast enough. Oh, this is a question for Steve. Right. And so he became really well known through that community as being the go to guy for that thing. And I imagine the same thing happens over time in these different groups as well. Did you start out locally or you're like, I'm going nationwide, baby. I'm going try to find these huge moms groups.
- [11:37]
It was easiest to establish authority in my own local Facebook groups because I had plenty of friends and family members and just extended network connections that were quick to tag me in sleep related posts. But I definitely expanded beyond just my own local mom's Facebook groups and joined some larger communities. And you know, it took a little bit longer to gain that authority in those groups where I didn't have as many connections within those communities. But after, you know, after some time, what ends up happening is people that don't even know me personally, have never even worked with me, are used to seeing my name, just like you said about sleep related posts, and they just tagged me. So yeah, over time I was able to build some credibility and authority within other communities outside of my own local space.
- [12:29]
Did you give any thought to, well, is this something that people pay money for? Like Competitive analysis wise, like who else is out there? What are they charging? What's the, I mean the market size is potentially huge. Like any parent with young kids, like, okay, that's a huge market. But how to say like, is this something that people pay money for?
- [12:49]
I knew that people were paying money for it. I didn't invent the idea. When I decided to get my certification, I quickly googled sleep consultant certification courses and a few names popped up and I research them a little bit. You know, you could, you can't really tell from a website like how big are these companies, how many people are really enrolled in these programs. It was hard to tell. But you know, I knew I wasn't the first one out there doing this. I knew that people were paying for this service and I just needed to decide, you know, what I was going to charge for this service and what my services were actually going to look like because they didn't necessarily need to look like what everybody else was doing. My pricing didn't necessarily need to be the same and my, my offer didn't necessarily need to be the same.
- [13:38]
How much were you charging early on?
- [13:40]
So early on I was charging $425 for a two week consultation, which might sound really low to somebody that doesn't understand what we do. And it is a little low. I've since raised my pricing, but the way that we support families, at least for me, I find that if I set my clients up for success, success on the front end, which looks like a really thorough, well written sleep plan, a phone call to answer all of their questions, those two things set up my clients for success. So I'm not talking to them all day for two weeks, you know, so I write this plan, I get on a 30 minute call and then they have text message support from me for two weeks with a wrap up phone call at the end. All in all, most of my clients really only require about an hour and a half to two hours worth of work. You know, it's 45 minutes maybe to write the plan, two 30 minute phone calls, and then some like sporadic text message support. So what I found is that I really can support a lot of families at once and really build a pretty substantial income. You know, at one point I was supporting 25, 30 families a month, which I've since scaled back. But you know, you can make good money charging 4 or $500 doing that.
- [14:55]
Nick Loper
More with Jane in just a moment, including how she generates referrals and word of mouth to deal with the inevitable client turnover in a service like this and how your hourly rate can improve over time. Right after this, the common advice is to hire slow and fire fast.
- [15:09]
Jane Havens
But there comes a point when you.
- [15:11]
Nick Loper
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- [15:46]
Jane Havens
To make my next hire.
- [15:47]
Nick Loper
There's no need to wait any longer. Speed up your hiring right now with Indeed side Hustle show listeners will get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility@inn Indeed.com Sidehustleshow just go to indeed.com Sidehustleshow right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com Sidehustleshow terms and conditions apply. Hiring Indeed is all you need this summer. Don't get burned by your wireless bill. You should be planning beach trips, barbecues, three day weekends and your wireless bill should be the last thing on your mind. That's why I made the switch to our partner mint mobile in 2019 and haven't looked back. Mint Mobile is here to rescue you from overpriced wireless's jaw dropping monthly bills and unexpected overages. All Mint Mobile plans come with high speed data and unlimited talk and text delivered on the nation's largest 5G network. You can use your own phone with any Mint Mobile plan. Bring your existing phone number and all your existing contacts. Join me in ditching overpriced wireless and get three months of premium wireless service from Mint mobile for just 15 bucks a month this year. Skip breaking a sweat and breaking the bank. Get your summer savings and shop premium wireless plans@mintmobile.com side hustle. That's mintmobile.com side hustle upfront payment of $45 for 3 month 5 gigabyte plan required equivalent to $15 per month. New customer offer for first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details.
- [17:21]
Jane Havens
Yeah, and so they kind of graduate out of the consultation after this two weeks or do you find people renew.
- [17:28]
After that very few families need to renew. Most of my clients that have infants were totally done in two weeks. And then my clients that have older children, sometimes it's a little bit of a longer process, but I still find that most of them are ready to be wrapped up, even if they have more work to be done on their end. I've given them the tools in those two weeks that they don't really need me anymore. They just, they know what they need to do and they just need to keep doing that work to get to the finish line.
- [17:55]
Okay. So it's kind of this, at least on the consulting side, this constant hunt for new business, because it's like, well, if a client only lasts two weeks, then I got to. I got to go back to the drawing board to find the next client kind of a thing.
- [18:08]
Yeah. So that's true. But what I find is that all of my clients are really coming to me by way of referral. I'm really, I'm changing lives out there right now. You know, parents come to me sort of at rock bottom. They're so desperate for sleep, they're so exhausted, they're delirious. And in two weeks, I turn their life around. You know, people tell me that I saved their marriage. People tell me that their children are. Their behavior has completely changed, that they enjoy their children more. So this really rapid, amazing result leads to them sort of singing my praises from the rooftops. And most of my clients come to me by way of hearing my name through a former client of mine. So I'm not really out there hunting for business. I was in the beginning, when I first. When I first got started, I definitely was out there hunting for business. But at this point, it's sort of like every single day I get an email or a text message or a phone call from somebody that got my name from a former client.
- [19:11]
Yeah, parents tend to know other parents and the word of mouth starts to spread. One other thing on the pricing or the consulting side, and that's, I'm writing up this plan, but I imagine by this point you've seen just about every scenario or every sleep related problem. And so it's like there's probably a template that you can dust off from, oh, I had somebody on the other side of the country last month who was dealing with the same thing. So we can just apply this. And so that makes it even faster to deliver.
- [19:47]
Absolutely. I've supported so many families at this point that actually, when a new client comes in, maybe it'll be baby Eli. And he's four months old, and I've already worked with three Eli's that are four months old. So the details might be a little bit different. Maybe the first Eli was sleeping in a snoo, and the second Eli is sleeping in a crib, and the first Eli uses a pacifier and the second Eli doesn't. So I need to make sure that all of the details are specific to the family that I'm supporting. But, yeah, I'm not reinventing the wheel. I'm not starting from scratch. Every once in a while, a situation comes my way that I feel like is a little bit unique, and I do have to start a little bit from scratch. And that actually throws me for a loop at this point because it's so rare.
- [20:35]
Okay. I wanted to highlight that just because the hourly rate becomes a lot better as you go forward and as you have more knowledge and more files and more case studies in your database or in your Rolodex, you can say, okay, I know what's going on here. On the referral marketing side, aside from delivering great service and transforming, parents are obviously getting more sleep and they're happy. They're going to spread the word. Is there anything specific to incentivize that word of mouth sharing or just, hey, it's going to happen naturally?
- [21:10]
I personally don't incentivize my clients to refer me. I don't want to give them a little Starbucks gift. It just. It's not. It doesn't feel sincere. I don't know. I don't really want to be paying my former clients for referrals. So I personally don't do that. I just take really good care of them. I send every family a handwritten thank you note with a little gift for their child at the end of our two week together. I think that that gesture goes a really long way and they remember that and, you know, they. They share my name. I. I haven't really had the need to highly incentivize my clients to refer business to me.
- [21:52]
Yeah, I know that that makes sense. Especially when it's something so personal. It's like, well, are you recommending this person because they were good or because they sent you a Starbucks card?
- [22:01]
Exactly. Yeah.
- [22:02]
But I like this personal touch. Handwritten, thank you, a little token, a little something for the kid. I think that's awesome. And aside from the Facebook stuff, anything else on the marketing side? Or is it just like, hey, I need to do the Facebook group thing to get this initial customer base? And then the word of mouth starts.
- [22:21]
Spinning So I think the key to finding clients is networking and connecting, is talking to people. I don't think that necessarily has to happen in Facebook groups. That's where it was happening for me. But I know that other sleep consultants are successful networking and connecting offline. You know, if Facebook groups aren't your thing, it doesn't need to be that. For me, that's where I got started and then it was referrals and word of mouth. But I know that others spend time networking with pediatricians, lactation consultants, doulas, preschool teachers, family photographers. And you know, as my network has grown, these are all places where I also receive referrals. Actually, a good friend of mine is a family photographer and takes pictures of newborns and older babies. And, you know, she's referred business to me. My daughter's preschool director has referred business to me. So, you know, there's lots of ways that I am networking and connecting to grow my business. Facebook is just one place where I'm hanging out to do that.
- [23:25]
Right. Think of, you know, who your target customers are already doing business with. Where are they hanging out? I like this. You know, the preschool teacher is if people know what you do, then it's easy to and who you do it for, then it's easy to make that connection. So I think that all makes a lot of sense. All right, so things are spinning on the marketing, the referral side. People are coming in, they're signing up for this two week consultation and you're delivering their results. Can you give me a sense of, you know, a day in the life, if there is such a thing, or, you know, the, the logistics of delivering on a service based business like this.
- [24:02]
Frankly, it looks different every single day. I wake up in the morning and before I even get out of bed, you know, seven o' clock in the morning, I'm texting all of my clients just to see how the night went. That's how I start off my day. I like to get that out of the way before my kids start getting going and I'm rushing to get them off to school. Just a little bit of back and forth with each family to hear how the night went and to offer a tiny bit of advice or support or just whatever they need. Then my morning is busy with getting my kids ready for school, breakfast out the door. Then I usually have time to myself for about an hour or two. My calendar doesn't open up for calls until about 10am So I have, you know, an hour and a half to run to the grocery store, get gas you know, do whatever I need to do for myself in my own life. And then from 10 until about 2, 2:30, I am doing all sorts of stuff. Sometimes it's phone calls with prospective clients. Sometimes it is that first 30 minute phone call to onboard a family that's getting started with sleep training. Sometimes it's just hanging out in Facebook groups and you know, doing my thing. Really looks different. Every single day. I make time for the things that I want to be doing because the whole point of me starting this business was to like continue to be that stay at home mom that I was. I just also wanted to use my brain and make some money. So I still make time for myself. I will make sure that I have a lunch with friends once a week. I played tennis earlier today. You know, I do the things, I have a mahjong group. So like I do all the things that I want to be doing as a mom that has her two kids in school, that has some free time. But then I'm also churning out stuff for my business and most of it can be done by phone. You know, I'm on my cell phone all day. I'm not sitting at a computer so you know, I can talk to my clients while I'm sitting in carpool line or at the checkout counter at Target. You know, I have a really flexible schedule with work and then I write all of my sleep plans at night after my kids are in bed. It's just my routine. They could be done during the day, but for whatever reason, I've just gotten used to doing them at night. That's what I do and I don't know, that's what my day looks like.
- [26:26]
Okay. Yeah. Something that kind of fits in the cracks in the days in a lot of ways. Versus here's my nine to five, going to the office, fired up the laptop and it's like, oh, sounds very flexible. One thing I did want to ask about was the transition from this free initial consultation to saying, hey, I think I can help you, but it's going to be $425. What's that conversation like? Or what's that gentle nudge to sign up for the actual service?
- [26:56]
Sure. So it's now more like $600. 425 was what I was first starting. But I think when people are getting on that free 15 minute call with me, and I'm probably making this pretty clear when they're getting on that call, that the 15 minute call is not for me to share free advice. The free 15 minute call is for me to hear a little bit about what they're struggling with, wrap my head around their specific situation and for me to paint a picture of what it would look like for us to work together and how I can help, how I can solve that problem that they have. So they know, most of them know that that 15 minute call is really just to make sure that we jive, we get along, and then they decide whether or not they want to hire me. And, you know, I sit there and I listen to their struggle, I share how I can help, I explain what the process looks like and then I explain to them that if they would like to work together, they head to my website and sign on to work together. And then for me, it's about 48 hours to turn around a sleep plan and get started on working towards their children sleeping more independently.
- [28:03]
Okay. Yeah. They're not expecting to have all their problems solved in 15 minutes. Do you have prices listed on your website?
- [28:09]
I do, yeah. I think that that's important. I understand in some industries that is more complicated, but in my situation, I think that they need to know I don't really want to be getting on phone calls with people, only for them to hear my pricing and think it's outrageous or whatever. You know, that just feels like a huge waste of time. So I'm really transparent about pricing.
- [28:33]
It's always like, you know, if it's all the, you know, call us for a quote or request a consult, just like if you have to ask, it's probably not going to be a good number. So, yeah, be upfront with it. Save everybody some time and heartache and just, it makes a lot of sense to be upfront about that. So you're working with clients who are going to be a good fit and then they're going into that consultation likely knowing what comes out the other end. Are you, do you have a sense of the typical conversion rate, so to speak, of somebody jumping on the call with you to becoming a client?
- [29:06]
I really don't keep track. I really don't. So the thing about me is like, I'm not a computer person. Like, I always joke, like, how successful would I be if I actually knew how to work my own computer? You know, like, I am not one to track data and have spreadsheets and I'm just, you know, I'm getting on calls with people and if they hire me, they hire me and if they don't, they don't. I used to spend a lot of time keeping track of who I had spoken to and following up with them. I do believe that to some degree the fortunes in the follow up. But as my business has grown, I've just come to a point where I'm sort of good with whatever happens. If they hire me, great. If not, I've moved on and I'm busy. So I'm not as I'm not worried about it. Yeah, yeah.
- [29:52]
Versus I'm going to grow a team and I'm going to franchise this thing out. And maybe this is good. Transition point. So you're getting questions from parents all day long, but I get the sense that you're also starting to get questions from other moms or other parents saying like, well, you know, how can I do what you do? And this is the birth of the online course side of the business. Let's talk about that transition.
- [30:18]
Sure. So a few reasons for why I decided to create my own certification course. One, I'm just sort of hungry when it comes to business. I like the feeling of being successful and growing and always challenging myself. And creating my own certification course felt like the best way to level up, for lack of a better way of explaining it. I also saw that the other sleep consultant certification courses on the market were lacking in certain areas that I felt like were pretty. It was pretty like substantial what was lacking. And I felt like I could fill that gap and provide a higher level of support, a higher level of mentorship. And you know, I also place a really heavy emphasis on business building and entrepreneurship in my program, which I don't think other courses on the market are really doing. This was sort of what I saw missing. I, I saw these women coming out of these programs and they were trained to be sleep consultants, but they weren't trained to grow a business. And they really lacked that understanding of how to find clients, how to network, how to grow, how to just like logistically set yourself up. They weren't given the tools to have the proper mindset to be successful. And these were all things that some, most of which came, I think a little bit naturally to me. But it's also what I really love. I love the entrepreneurial side of having a sleep consulting business. So I thought it would be frankly just really fun to coach and inspire others to have a similar level of success.
- [31:59]
Yeah, there's two sides to this. There's learn how to do the thing and then learn how to go get customers for that thing. And so touching on both of those makes a lot of sense. So this is@the CPSM.com center for Pediatric Sleep Management. I am Checking the site out now on the certification thing. So you can just create your own certification and say, you know, give it an official sounding name. And now customers are certified.
- [32:33]
Yeah. So the universe of sleep consulting is really an unregulated field, which I have mixed feelings about because I do think that, you know, it would be nice to have some standards within the industry, within the field. But I also think that the work we do is we're essentially, we're parenting coaches. We are coaching parents through the process of teaching their child to fall asleep and back to sleep independently. There's nothing dangerous, there's nothing risky, there's nothing medical about the work that we're doing. So, you know, in some respects I sort of think, do we really need to be regulated? You know, we're just, we're coaching parents through something that feels hard. Just sort of like potty training. Right. They're actually potty training consultants. I don't know if you know that, but you would never think that potty training consultants, that, that needs to be a regulated field. Right. Like you just coach parents through the process of potty training their kids. And I think sleep training is very similar.
- [33:30]
Yeah. And I'm not, not trying to make light of it because I see other online programs doing the same thing. So I just had to bring up loansigningsystem.com this is Mark Wills, and we've had several of his students on the show as well, teaching people how to become mobile notary loan signing agents. And he says, you know, at the very top of the thing is America's number one notary public loan signing agent training course and certification. So it's like, and if it becomes big enough, if you become kind of the go to brand in that space, then all of a sudden your certification starts to hold some merit, hold some weight with potential customers and say, okay, you know, you had some education in this space. We're good to go on this. Tell me about the, I guess initial traction or was there any like pre sales or market research that went into creating this course? Did you have a waiting list of, you know, moms who wanted to sign up?
- [34:26]
Yeah. So this was like really outside of my wheelhouse, if I'm being completely honest. Like, you know, creating a digital course, creating the curriculum for a digital course. I had never even heard of platforms, you know, all the learning platforms like Thinkific and Teachable and Kajabi. Like, I literally didn't know what any of those were and I didn't know how any of them worked. And I didn't even have an email list. I didn't have. I wasn't working with. Now I have activecampaign. But like, you know, when I was just doing consulting, I wasn't using mailchimp or Constant Contact or anything like that. I really sort of had to get my act together. I hired somebody to help me write the course curriculum because I had never done that before. This is what she does professionally. And I literally, I sent her six books. I got on a million zooms with her. We literally outlined the course module by module. I taught her everything I knew. After I would tell her something, I'd say, okay, then go to this book and like read about it here and then write up this. You know, she helped me to create this whole curriculum and we put it on thinkific and I just started, I started list building, but literally I was building it in a Google Doc. You know, I was meeting people in Facebook groups that were maybe interested in becoming a sleep consultant. And I would tell them, you know, my course is launching in three months. Can I just grab an email from you? And when it does, I'll make sure that you get emails and information about it. And so I was having these conversations, conversations in Facebook DMs and then I had my Google Doc of like their names and their emails. So I think by the time I launched my course, I had about 300 people on my email list.
- [36:16]
Wow. Very grassroots. Kind of like one on one hand to hand list building.
- [36:21]
Yeah.
- [36:22]
Nick Loper
More with Jane in just a moment, including how she uses a Facebook group to connect with qualified prospects in the other tools and tech she swears by right after this One strategy I didn't fully embrace or maybe wasn't fully aware of when I was starting out was this idea of the piggyback principle. In the startup phase. That means you don't have to start completely from scratch, but instead you can take advantage of existing tools, templates, playbooks, best practices from the people who've gone before you. A perfect example of this is our partner, Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses, from household names to side hustlers on their way to becoming household names. With hundreds of ready to use templates, Shopify helps you build a beautiful online store and start selling. Plus, Shopify is packed with helpful AI tools to accelerate your workflow. We're talking product descriptions, page headlines, and even enhancing your product photography. You can even easily create email and social media campaigns to reach your target customers wherever they're scrolling or strolling. If you're ready to Sell. You're ready for Shopify. Turn your big business idea into. With Shopify on your side, sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.comsidehustle Go to shopify.comsidehustleen shopify.comsidehustLe for such an important channel.
- [37:42]
D
Like phone, the software powering this important channel was super outdated and clunky. We wanted to make it delightful and make it very easy for businesses to connect with their customers through voice and text.
- [37:55]
Nick Loper
That's Drina Coolia, co founder of our sponsor, OpenPhone. Trusted by more than 60,000 customers, this is the number one business phone system that streamlines and scales your customer communications.
- [38:06]
D
We bring your calls, your messages, your contacts in one simple place and we allow you to bring in your team so you, as a business owner don't end up being the bottleneck. And we really make it easy for you to deliver that incredible experience right.
- [38:21]
Nick Loper
It's all about speed, streamlined communication, team access into one centralized place.
- [38:26]
Jane Havens
I think that makes a lot of sense.
- [38:27]
D
Something that all of our customers love is ability to have a shared phone number, which really is great for calling and texting. So when someone calls you or texts you, there's multiple people that can team up on responding and everyone is in the loop about that conversation. This visibility is so critical, especially as you scale.
- [38:46]
Jane Havens
And the ability to text a business is like a, a new and novel thing that as a customer, I really appreciate.
- [38:53]
D
One thing that we've launched at OpenPhone, which is, I think a game changer, is Sona, which is our voice AI agent. It basically helps you never have a single missed call. It can handle responses to any common questions, basically any questions that you train it on, and then capture that information so you can quickly follow up. We are helping businesses never lose a customer because a missed call is a lost opportunity.
- [39:18]
Nick Loper
Now, OpenPhone has automatic AI call summaries.
- [39:20]
Jane Havens
So you don't have to worry about.
- [39:22]
Nick Loper
Taking notes while you're on the call. But another cool feature is what Darina called AI call tagging. Basically allowing you to quickly filter for the calls that were sales objections or customer complaints or requests for a discount so you can review those and see what worked, what didn't, and train team members on the most effective tactics and language in those cases. And it's all in the name of building a better, faster and friendlier customer experience.
- [39:48]
D
I want all OpenPhone customers to have five stars only.
- [39:51]
Nick Loper
Right now, OpenPhone is offering Side Hustle show listeners 20% off your first six months at openphone.com SideHustle that's O P E N P-H-O-N-E.com SideHustle and if you have existing numbers with another service, OpenPhone will port them over at no extra charge. Open Phone. No missed calls, no missed customers.
- [40:13]
Jane Havens
Yeah. And so what was great was that not only did I have their name and email, but I had also previously connected with them in Facebook Messenger. So like I had access to having conversations with them. You know, it wasn't like just sending an email that somebody was going to delete. It was like I could actually send them a Facebook message and I could see whether or not they read it and then hopefully they'd respond, you know. But it was a little bit more like personal access than just an email. So when the course was finally ready to launch, I did have a pre sale and for I think it was like seven to 10 days, the course was pretty heavily discounted. And during that launch I think I sold about seven courses. And then a few days later my goal was 10. I know that and I know that I didn't make my goal in the initial launch, but literally a few days later I was up to 10. So I was very close to making my goal. And that was from a list of about 300 people. So I think that was like, it was pretty decent for a launch.
- [41:17]
Yeah, like a 3% conversion rate. I don't know what's good or bad, but you know, I think it was.
- [41:23]
Considered to be decent or I felt good about it.
- [41:26]
You know, that's what counts.
- [41:28]
Yeah, whatever. And then so I just sort of kept plugging along and I would just keep adding people to my email list and I was everybody I was in touch with. Again, this was like connecting with people in Facebook groups. And for this side of my business, I was sort of hunting around in more entrepreneurial type Facebook groups, talking to women that were teachers, nurses, paralegals, hairstylists, really anybody, but that were sort of unhappy in their career looking for a passion project and I would just put them into my email list and I would also just keep in touch with them in Facebook Messenger. Over time that built and eventually, I don't know how long it was after I started the course, but I created my own Facebook group which is called Becoming a Sleep Consultant. That was a real turning point for my business and how I grew the course because now I sort of use that Facebook group as the top of my funnel and and I bring people from various Facebook groups over to my Facebook group and nurture my audience There they still get all of my emails, but it's a good way to sort of educate them on what it looks like to become a sleep consultant and then, you know, provide information on what my program specifically looks like and the value that I offer.
- [42:51]
Okay, let's talk about the group at the top of the funnel. So now I'm on the becoming a sleep consultant group. I think Facebook is an underrated search engine in that sense. When somebody searches Sleep Consultant, you want to show up. If somebody searches side Hustle, I want the side Hustle Nation Facebook group to show up as a top of the funnel entry point. If Facebook is going to send me free traffic, we'll take it. So how does this work? Somebody comes to this page for the first time or this group for the first time.
- [43:19]
So they come to the group either because, just like you said, they searched Sleep consultant and because that's in the name of my group, they just find it, or I found them in another Facebook group and encouraged them to join my Facebook group and they have to answer a few membership questions, one of which is, you know, would you like to receive my free ebook on becoming a sleep consultant? Which opts them into my email. So if they share an email, then I plop them into my email address, I add them into the Facebook group, and I will either tag them in. I have a welcome post at the top of my group which is just sort of like a 20 minute rundown of everything they need to know. I'll either tag them there or if they join the group, one of the questions I think I ask them is like, do you have any questions about becoming a sleep consultant? If they ask a question that I've already answered in the Facebook group, I do a lot of lives in that community just answering questions that come up regularly. So, you know, if their question is, how do I choose a sleep consultant certification program? Well, I've done a live on that exact topic. So if that's their question, I tag them there and they can watch that. And sort of that gets them sort of hopefully more interested in what I do. I also send every single person that joins my Facebook group a message just to introduce myself, let them know that they can ask me questions in Facebook messenger anytime. And it just sort of opens up the communication and gets us talking.
- [44:49]
Yes, this is something that. And not that 3000 is a small audience, but 3000 members today. It's something that a smaller group, a more intimate group can really do and really have an advantage over a larger group where it's Like, I couldn't DM everybody who requested to join. So I think that's actually really cool. And that's an advantage that you may have starting out. Really have this one on one touchpoint. Are you doing manually when somebody requests this? The email opt in thing with the.
- [45:18]
Membership questions, I was for a long time, which was brutal. And then somebody told me that I could use one of those little Chrome plugins to do it all for me. And that actually has been totally life changing. I think it's called, I want to say it's called Group Leads.
- [45:37]
Yes, Group Leads is the one I'm using. I love it. It's like the coolest piece of software.
- [45:42]
Life changing. Yeah. So, you know, they, they request to join, I accept them using the Group Leads, little red button. And it automatically sends them a welcome message, personalized welcome message. It automatically opts them into my emails if they've agreed to be opted into emails. And that gets it started.
- [46:01]
Yeah. Now they're in activecampaign. Now they're. Now they're part of the system versus just being another person on Facebook. It gets more touch points and does it in an automated way. So really been happy with that release. For the last seven, eight months, I've been on Group Leads. Definitely a game changer for sure. Okay, so now you have opportunity to communicate with people. You're answering questions, you're like, if you have any questions. Oh, we already covered that in this live. And so now they're watching this video and they're building a deeper relationship with you. And then for the course itself, is this, this on a open and closed cart? Is it evergreen? Is it always available? What's the strategy there?
- [46:38]
It's always available. I've had strategists, coaches tell me to do it differently. Everybody has a different opinion about this, but my course is always available and I like it to be that way because I like for a person to register here, a person to register there. If I have 20 or 30 people registering at once, it's actually overwhelming for me on like the onboarding side. And then also there are a few assignments that I have to grade throughout their, you know, going through the course. And it actually is really nice to have them all staggered so that they're turning in assignments at different times. I actually had a crazy, crazy busy month this past November. I ran a Black Friday sale and now I'm sort of on the struggle bus because they're all wrapping up the course. So, you know, I'm paying the price for that right now. So it's nice when they trickle in.
- [47:31]
Okay, is there anything to encourage people to get off the fence and just do it or just like hey, the price is the price. Whether you jump in this week or next week or next month, whenever it's right for you, doesn't matter to me.
- [47:46]
So I do offer sales pretty regularly. It works. You know, giving people a couple hundred dollars off the price of the course makes them feel like they are winning, you know, so, so I do that from time to time. I also often will, you know, if I get on a call with somebody and they, they seem like really, really ready and they just need a push, I will offer them sort of a personalized flash sale code, you know, if you sign up within the next 72 hours, I'll give you $250 off, you know, and the code is Anna. 250 like their name and 250 after.
- [48:26]
You just set that up in the Thinkific like admin dashboard.
- [48:30]
So I used to use thinkific for my checkout cart and I've since moved over to ThriveCart which has been just a world of difference. But yeah, same thing.
- [48:40]
Okay. Basically lots of friends on ThriveCart. It must be. I'm an affiliate of several ThriveCart users but have not used it as a shopping cart myself. But know that lots of other people are on it. So some safety in numbers there for sure. What was the advantage of running checkouts through there versus just sign up directly through thinkific?
- [49:03]
Thinkific is amazing in almost every single way except for their checkout cart. Thinkific's checkout cart, I really do love that platform. But their checkout cartoon is I think a two step process. So you have to first, you know, put in your name and your email and you're this and you're that and then you go to the next page and it's your credit card. And I think by the time people to get, get to their second page, the second page, it's like, then they start to hesitate and it's crazy. But like when you're making a big purchase, my, you know, my course is almost $2,500. So when you're making a big purchase, you know, in that split second you could get cold feet and just change your mind. And actually I was noticing that that was happening because you have to first register as a user in Thinkific before you can purchase something. So I would get an email that a new user had registered but I didn't get the email that they had checked out. So like that's exactly what was happening, is they were like registering and then they were changing their mind. And I felt like that was a major problem. It kept happening.
- [50:10]
Oh, that's interesting. I investigated because I'm on teachable and it's the same. Sometimes I'll get notifications like, oh, so and so registered for your school, but then there's no second email that like, oh, they actually registered for the class.
- [50:24]
Yeah, they're changing their minds in that split second. And ThriveCart is a one page, it's literally named email, credit card, boom, done. And then whatever information you need later, you can get that later, you know.
- [50:39]
Okay. And they're still doing as a one time fee, like lifetime license for ThriveCart.
- [50:44]
Yes.
- [50:45]
Okay. So it layers on top of Thinkific and then it syncs over, you know, the customer data through Zapier or just. It happens automatically.
- [50:54]
Yeah, no, it's Zapier.
- [50:55]
Okay.
- [50:56]
Like two years ago, I had no idea what Zapier was. I had no idea what any of this stuff was. So it was a huge, it was a huge learning curve for me.
- [51:03]
I love it. And that's a great sign that you can learn new things. We had somebody recently said, if you had asked me five years ago, would I be involved in running a website and affiliate marketing and SEO, I would have told you you were crazy. And it's like, yes, you can learn new things. I love that. Anything else on the tools and tech side that you swear by?
- [51:24]
So my favorite favorite tool, which I mentioned a little bit earlier, is my Acuity calendar. I feel like I can't live without that. It makes it so much easier for me to schedule both calls with clients, prospective clients, and then also do things on the student side of things. You know, when my students complete the certification course, I offer them what I call a Zoom Strategy session. So we get on Zoom for about 45 minutes and just answer any of their lasting questions, whether they be sleep related, business related. And I love that, you know, when they finish the course, it can just, just automatically send them an email like, congratulations on finishing the course. Here's your link to schedule your Zoom strategy session. Right. And then we just pop up on Zoom together. It's the best. So I love Acuity. I like Zoom. I use Canva a lot for my business. I find that it's really easy to put together things that are relatively beautiful and professional for your business on Canva, which I would never be able to do without. And then I recently moved my website over. It was on WordPress and I was always struggling with my WordPress website because I didn't know how to use it. I didn't know how to make changes, I didn't know how to. It just felt really overwhelming and techie for me. So I moved it over to a platform called ShowIt, which still uses the WordPress blog. So from an SEO perspective, it's still really strong. But the ShowIt website sort of operates like Canva, and I can go in and just make changes really easily. It's almost like I'm a web developer. It's crazy.
- [52:59]
All right. Yeah, I was trying to, you know, view source on your site just now to see like, well, what are you running? It doesn't look like WordPress. I did see that show it show up in the code. Well, cool. Thanks for sharing all of those different tools. I think that ends up being how a lot of people do it. You know, it's. It's taping a bunch of stuff together that meet your needs. And really the website and the email list, the activecampaign kind of @ the, at the core of that, anything that you do differently or anything that surprised you on either side, either the service side or the online course side in the last two, three years, I don't know.
- [53:36]
I don't know what I do differently because I don't really know what anybody else is doing. I'm on my own, you know, I'm on my own path. I'm in a competition with myself. I'm not really looking at my competitors. Like, I really do feel like there's enough business to go around both on the consulting side and on the course side. There are plenty of tired parents. There are enough tired parents to warrant as many sleep consultants that they're, you know, it doesn't matter. And then, and then, same thing with the course. You know, I think that my audience for my course is perfect for me. And then there are other programs that probably attract an audience that's more appropriate for them. The key to my success, I think has been to just like keep challenging myself and always trying new things and then also seeking support when necessary. I hire virtual assistants to help me with tech stuff. That feels really hard. Activecampaign in particular is something that's really overwhelming to me. I know how to send like a one off email campaign, but if I were to try and create a whole automation or to tag people in certain ways, I would lose my mind. I don't know how to do any of that. So, you know, instead of me freezing up and not doing Things I just pay somebody to do it for me and move on.
- [54:52]
On that front, is there an automated welcome sequence or sales pitch? Once somebody. Either they find you, you add them to the list manually, or they get added through the Facebook group. And the group leads integration. Is there like a 3, 4, 5 email sequence that ultimately leads to sales pitch?
- [55:12]
Yeah. So when they first enter my email list, they get access to my ebook on becoming a sleep consultant. They get a download of the course syllabus, and then, you know, I think it's seven emails in the welcome sequence that ultimately ends with an offer. And, you know, they. If they book a call with me on that, you know, sixth or seventh email, I think they will be eligible for a $250 discount on the price of the course. And, you know, they book that call, I have the code ready to go for them, and hopefully that converts. And then after that welcome sequence, it's me winging it. To be completely honest, I send emails based on what's going on. I was just on a podcast the other day that dropped, you know, yesterday or the day before. So I sent out an email like, hey, I was on this podcast. You know, if you want to take a listen, here's the link. If I share something interesting in the becoming a sleep consultant Facebook group, I'll send out an email. Like, in case you missed it, this is what we talked about in the Facebook group today. Every once in a while, I get antsy and offer a flash sale. I'm totally winging it there.
- [56:27]
You get antsy. Like, if it's been, you know, a couple weeks of a dry spell, is that what would cause that?
- [56:33]
Yeah, like, sometimes, I don't know. Sometimes I'm just like, yeah, exactly. What should I do? You know?
- [56:40]
Sure, breathe some new life into it. Okay.
- [56:42]
Yeah, exactly. And it works for me. So, you know, sometimes I feel like I'm throwing spaghetti at the wall, and then sometimes I feel like I have my finger on the pulse of what's working, and I don't know, either way is fine.
- [56:54]
I think the combination of those two things is entrepreneurship in a nutshell. Right? You got to throw the spaghetti and then double down on the spaghetti. That's working. So I like that.
- [57:02]
Yeah, exactly.
- [57:04]
Given the price point, $2,000 and up, do you find that most of the sales are coming through these phone consultations or are people kind of ordering just a la carte on their own without booking a call?
- [57:18]
So I get really excited when somebody pays for my course and they haven't spoken to me. That really lights me up because that just means they've been lurking either in my Facebook group and they like what they've seen, they don't feel the need to talk to me or just yesterday somebody enrolled in my course that told me she found me on Google, which is very exciting because I'm really not doing much to warrant any significant placement on Google. It's on my list of things to do. But I am starting to hear that more and more and more. That's really exciting because that means that my website is making people feel comfortable with my offer and my program. And you know, I don't know that that really lights me up when somebody signs up without talking to me. That just feels amazing. I do have an affiliate program where, you know, if somebody refers somebody to my program, they get a commission. And I have a few affiliates, really actually one or two that seem to have a lot of authority within their own communities. And you know, when we run a promotion together, I do those do convert because their audience is trusting them. So then they trust me. And that works really nicely. I don't often have to get on calls when we run those promotions.
- [58:41]
Okay. Yeah, I just was curious about that. You know, sometimes some. I've heard that $2,000 is the kind of upper limit of what people will buy without getting on the phone. And so it's like you're always curious to test out, well, is that a true assumption or is that just a thing? But it's cool that you offer the phone consultation as a next step.
- [59:05]
I like to talk to people before they enroll in my course because I really do treat my course as a community. It really does feel like a family of friends or colleagues and it really helps me to know who they are. I like to get on a zoom and see them face to face and hear their little two year old crying in the background. I like to know what their story is and feel like I've connected with them so that I can better support them.
- [59:32]
What's the breakdown? If you're comfortable sharing between the sleep consulting work and the core sales today as the picture of the revenue pie.
- [59:42]
Again, like I have no stats on anything, but most of it is course sales just based on, you know, the price that I'm selling the course versus the price that I'm offering my two week consultation, you know, so it's, it's mostly income from, from core sales at this point. That being said, I'm busy with clients. I have six or seven clients on my roster right now, so it's not like I'm not supporting families, but if you're looking at the dollars, most of the dollars are coming from core sales.
- [60:12]
Yeah, you gotta, gotta stay in the game, you know, so you know what to do in the next version of the course. Where do you want to take this thing? What's next for you?
- [60:20]
I don't know. I would love to find somebody to help me to sell the course. You know, sort of like build out a sales team a little bit. I'm having trouble finding that person because all of the people that are great that have taken my course that, you know, I've approached about this, they're really excited about growing their own businesses. They, they're not really concerned with growing mine, which I totally, which I totally respect. So I'd love to find somebody or build a little bit of a team. I'd also love to figure out how to make the Internet work for me a little bit better. I mentioned, you know, working on some SEO, making that a bit of a priority. I did just hire a Pinterest manager to help me grow my presence on Pinterest, which we literally just started. I think it's been a month and a half since we started, maybe two months. So, you know, just getting, getting the Internet to work for me a little bit better rather than like me hustling so hard all of the time would be amazing. But I also think in the same breath, I'm the type to always hustle. So even if the Internet is working for me, I'm still going to do what I do. I guess it's just going to allow me to grow.
- [61:32]
It's a good feeling when you can get the Internet to work for you. People are finding you organically and signing up for your things and buying your stuff. That's a great feeling and I'm confident that you'll get there. It sounds like you're already halfway there.
- [61:45]
It's slowly happening. The Google thing, it's happened a few times in the past couple of months. When somebody signs up for my course, there's a little line. How did you hear about cpsm? And a few times people have said Google, like really? What? So it is starting to happen. And so I guess I have to just keep doing what I'm doing, but I would love for that to happen a little bit more.
- [62:08]
You do anything with paid ads?
- [62:10]
No, I have dabbled in paid ads a teeny tiny bit from time to time. And it just feels like a really expensive way to list build with the wrong people. That's my experience. And so it hasn't made sense for me. I don't want to pay for people to be added to my email list. You know, my product is expensive, so I can't just put up an ad for somebody to buy my course. Like, they're not going to see an ad and pay $2,500 for a course. They're going to want to see an ad and opt in to learn more about my course. Right. So it just feels like a really expensive way to list build. I. I'm good at list building. I'm good at getting out there and talking to people and connecting with people that are legitimately interested in what I have. And I think I'm. I'm better at that than what any ad would do for me. And then it just becomes more expensive to have all these people on my list that are the wrong people.
- [63:06]
The reason I ask is it's such a niche, or at least from the outside looking in, it seems like such a niche service or certification where it's like, become a certified sleep consultant. How many other people could be bidding on that keyword in Google? And it's like, well, if you're using the Facebook group as top of the funnel, we'll opt in for the free ebook guide to this and get the course syllabus. It's like, could you do that same thing? I don't know how. Maybe those ads would be prohibitively expensive. But it's like, it might be worth if it were to be like, if I could I shortcut my exposure in Google in SEO by buying my way to the top of the results. And it's like, well, I was paying 50 bucks a lead and the conversion rate just didn't shake out. Then maybe not so much, but it might be worth the test. But I'm not in charge, right?
- [63:53]
No, it definitely is worth a test. It's just. Just, you know, this is one area where I do feel like it's tricky to find the right people to support you. Until I find that right person, I don't want to just throw a bunch of money at something, you know, I already have a system that's working. And, you know, even, even. Just like, my SEO has gotten better. So. And I do. I have somebody that blogs for me. So, like, maybe that's working. I don't know. But I, I would like to just. I don't know. You're right. I should probably do that at some point. The secret is finding the right person to help, because I can't do it myself. It's outside of my wheelhouse.
- [64:32]
It's a learning curve. Especially I feel like Google, well, my background was in paid ads like 15 years ago. And the Google Ads platform is so much more complex than it was at that point. All the different ways you can slice the data and the targeting and everything. And then Facebook is another black box of ad optimization and audience targeting and everything. But that's something that just came to mind.
- [64:56]
So, you know, yeah, you're right.
- [64:58]
I don't know. But sounds like things are going awesome for you. The snoozefest.com if you are a parent struggling with getting your kid to sleep, check Chained out over there. And the cpsm.com for the sleep certification Sleep Consultant certification program. Appreciate you joining me, sharing the ins and outs of all this stuff. Let's wrap this thing up with your number one tip for side Hustle Nation.
- [65:23]
I guess my number one tip is to brush the fear aside. I think that when it comes to entrepreneurship or really just like making any big leap or choice, everybody's scared, right? Everybody has fear or anxiety around starting something new. And the people that are successful are scared and do it anyway. And the people that do nothing are scared, so they do nothing, right? So everybody has this fear. And if you can be one of those people that just pushes through and tries, then I think you're ahead of most of the others.
- [66:02]
I think you're right on that. 100% progress happens just beyond your comfort zone. Brush the fear aside. Everybody's scared. And the people who got off the sidelines are the ones who pushed that fear aside. Just for a moment. Jane, this has been awesome. Just some final thoughts or kind of big ideas for me from this episode. The first was this idea of being expert enough where you were already answering people's questions. And maybe you weren't the world's foremost leading sleep scientist expert, but you knew enough to be dangerous and you invested in yourself and the training certification. Like, look, I know what I'm talking about. I can help people with this. People are seeing results and that's part of this. Brushing fear aside, I think the idea of creating your own certification program like we kind of talked about, that's a pretty cool idea. And there's something that could gain traction and it's for better or worse, like you said, something you can just kind of put your own stamp on. We had when I was running the virtual Assistant site, I had a little badge that I would put on the reviews for the companies that I had tested and it just said Virtual Assistant Assistant tested. It didn't say certified or approved or anything, although it could have. It was something that I thought about adding. Maybe the companies could put their, they could put that certification badge down at the bottom like, oh, they were certified by this random dude in his spare bedroom. But whatever it was. So I think that was really cool. And then this one of the common threads, just meet your customers where they're at. If they're on Facebook, great. If they're not on Facebook, go find another way to connect with them. Like you mentioned, through different networking opportunities, other people who are already talking to them, it's the pediatricians and the librarians. We had Riley Jarvis on the show a couple months ago who was a sleep consultant in a totally different niche. She was targeting executives and so he would go and connect with them through LinkedIn and you know, different audience, different platforms. So go where your customers already are. But really appreciate you joining me, Jane. Thanks for sharing your insight once again. The full text summary and links to all the resources mentioned for this one are at side hustlenation.com Jane J A Y N E While you're there, make sure to download my free list of 101 service business ideas that you may be able to apply some of Jane's same strategies to and get those creative juices flowing.
- [68:22]
Nick Loper
That is it for me.
- [68:23]
Jane Havens
Thank you so much for tuning in. Until next time, let's go out there and make something happen and I'll catch you in the next edition of the side Hustle show. Hustle on the.