734: From Zero to 35M Downloads

Summary

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The Side Hustle Show – Episode 734: From Zero to 35M Downloads

Date: April 20, 2026
Host: Nick Loper | Guest Host: Jared Bauman (Niche Pursuits Podcast)
Theme: Behind the Scenes: Growing, Marketing & Monetizing The Side Hustle Show

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Overview

This episode offers an in-depth, candid look at how Nick Loper grew The Side Hustle Show from its humble beginnings in 2013 to over 700 episodes and 35 million downloads. In conversation with Jared Bauman, Nick traces his journey, reveals the strategies behind marketing, production, and monetization, and shares practical lessons for current and aspiring podcasters. It's a goldmine of actionable tips for anyone interested in content creation, relationship-building, and building a lasting online business.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Starting the Podcast: Origins, Mindset & Early Challenges

• Genesis: The Side Hustle Show began in 2013 as an outgrowth of Nick's curiosity after his own affiliate marketing side hustle succeeded.
  • “Started from kind of a place of my own curiosity and maybe some inflated sense of perceived expertise.” — Nick Loper, [03:17]
• Sustainability Over Start:
  • “I think it's easy to start and I think it's hard to stay started.” — Nick Loper, [10:01]
• Initial Struggles: Building an audience takes time, and the early grind can feel thankless:
  • “It takes the same amount of effort to produce an episode that 10 people listen to or 10,000 people or a hundred thousand people listen to.” — Nick Loper, [10:33]

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2. Content Philosophy: Heavy on Tactics, Light on Theory

• Audience-First Approach: Nick wanted “the show that I wanted to listen to” — not mindset fluff, but real, actionable advice.
  • “Don't give me this mindset stuff … Tell me how you did the thing so I can go do it myself.” — Nick Loper, [07:06]
• Evergreen Content: Many episodes remain timeless and binge-worthy years later.
• Format Evolution: Cut lengthy intros over time, focusing on getting straight to value.
  • “We don’t have an intro because we’d never waste your time. Boom, three seconds in.” — Nick Loper relaying advice from another host, [29:32]

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3. Relationship-Building Through Podcasting

• Unique Strength of Podcasting: The long-form, intimate nature of podcasts builds powerful connections.
  • “If people are spending literally hours with you in their earbuds and they're doing it over … years, that's a really powerful place to be.” — Nick Loper, [10:05]

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4. The Listener Pyramid: From Stranger to Raving Fan

• Framework: Four tiers — Strangers → Listeners → Subscribers → Fans
  • “Every piece of content that you create is designed to kind of ascend people along this ladder or up this pyramid.” — Nick Loper, [22:54]
• Challenges:
  • Biggest hurdle is awareness: “The biggest section of the pyramid is strangers. It's the people who don't know you exist.” — Nick Loper, [22:57]
  • Discovery is largely word-of-mouth.
• Strategies for Each Stage:
  1. Stranger to Listener: Compelling, curiosity-driven episode titles, guesting on other podcasts, basic SEO, and paid promotion on podcast apps.
     • “You got to sell the content ... In most cases, it's just the title.” — Nick Loper, [11:39]
     • “Podcasters listen to podcasts.” — John Lee Dumas via Nick Loper, [25:29]
  2. Listener to Subscriber: Deliver on value quickly, reference past episodes, use targeted lead magnets (checklists, highlight reels), and drive email signups.
     • “You got to make it really, really compelling.” — Nick Loper, [13:05]
     • Growth: “Within three months of doing that consistently, the email list was 3,000. Within six months it was 6,000. Within a year, it was 12,000.” — Nick Loper, [33:56]
  3. Subscriber to Fan: Invite deeper engagement (Facebook group, inside jokes, rituals), make offers (masterminds, products), and foster a flywheel effect through regular, multi-channel touchpoints.
     • “If you had an audience of only fans, that would be incredible.” — Nick Loper, [39:35]
     • “Somebody who has heard an idea, taken action on it, and seen the result.” — Nick Loper, [41:51]

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5. Marketing & Growth Tactics

• Titles Matter Most: Short, curiosity-provoking, result-focused titles (e.g., “How one Fiverr seller earned enough to buy a house”).
• Consistent Guesting: Regularly appearing on other podcasts.
• Platform-Specific Tweaks: SEO-driven for website/YouTube, curiosity-led for podcast feeds.
  • “The podcast title ... is probably more curiosity driven … The YouTube titles are much more keyword-driven.” — Nick Loper, [28:16]
• Content Previews: Referencing related content to increase stickiness.

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6. Engagement & Community

• Email Is Essential: The move from anonymous listeners to known subscribers via email was pivotal for monetization and connection.
  • “All of a sudden I have email. I can promote my latest offer ... They’ve got something in their inbox they can easily forward and share to a friend.” — Nick Loper, [34:21]
• Community Touchpoints: FB group, recurring “inside” jokes/segments (“morning radio playbook”), personalized playlists, and more.
• Loyalty Over Transience: Podcast listeners are far more engaged and long-term than blog readers.
  • “Podcast listeners ... sometimes they listen to hundreds of episodes … they're much more loyal and dedicated.” — Nick Loper, [21:55]

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7. Monetization: Sponsorships & Beyond

• Major Revenue Source: Sponsorships, managed via agencies (YAP Media), bring in $10–20k/month for 6–8 episodes.
  • “For me, the show earns between 10 and $20,000 a month … It's a tough gig to give up.” — Nick Loper, [49:14]
• Sponsorship Basics: Brands typically require 5,000–10,000+ downloads per episode for direct sponsorship. Agencies offer bigger deals and relieve workload.
  • “If you have less than 5 or 10,000 downloads per episode, this may not be a viable path.” — Nick Loper, [45:22]
• Scaling with Audience: Revenue scales directly with audience size, using CPM-based model.
• Alternate Monetization Models:
  • Listener-supported (Patreon, communities)
  • Selling own products/services
  • Affiliate marketing
  • "Podcast-as-lead-gen": Use as excuse to connect with high-value prospects or promote guest offers.
  • “Even if nobody is tuning in, selling to an audience of one ... using the podcast as an excuse to get them on the phone.” — Nick Loper, [53:29]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “It's a really powerful community-building component ... There’s a community of side hustlers out there where it doesn’t have to be so lonely.” — Nick Loper, [16:07]
• “I don't care what the stigma is, I'm going to put [podcaster] ... and that was kind of the identity flip.” — Nick Loper, [50:51]
• The "listener pyramid" analogy—a memorable, actionable framework for audience development. [22:25–25:05]
• Listener success stories: “I took my family to Disneyland because of something I heard on your show.” — Feedback shared by Nick Loper, [42:19]
• The importance of compelling hooks: "Episode 5 ... how one Fiverr seller earned enough money to buy a house ... It's all about the upsells, baby.” — Nick Loper, [12:50]
• Creating the “flywheel”: “The whole goal is, when somebody thinks side hustle, hopefully they think of Side Hustle Nation and the Side Hustle Show.” — Nick Loper, [36:06]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Starting the Show & Early Years: [03:17 – 06:00]
• Heavy on Tactics, Content Approach: [07:06 – 09:04]
• Podcast Relationship-Building Power: [10:01 – 11:13]
• Episode Titles & Early Growth: [11:34 – 13:25]
• Listener Pyramid Framework: [22:25 – 25:05]
• Listener to Subscriber Tactics: [29:04 – 34:05]
• Building Community/Engagement: [36:06 – 38:49]
• From Subscriber to Fan: [39:13 – 41:51]
• Listener Success Stories: [41:51 – 43:46]
• Monetization Deep Dive: [44:30 – 49:14]
• Monetization Beyond Sponsorships: [51:43 – 54:13]
• Identity as a Podcaster/Lasting Impact: [50:36 – 51:13]

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Takeaways for Podcasters & Side Hustlers

• Consistency & Longevity pay off — the compounding effect is real.
• Know Your Audience: Stronger relationships mean stronger results.
• Treat Your Podcast as Content Marketing: Email is the bridge to monetization.
• Compelling Titles and Stories: Make it irresistible to click and share.
• Embrace Iteration: The show, its structure, and its monetization model will evolve.
• Leverage Multiple Monetization Strategies: Don't rely solely on sponsorships.
• Flywheel Effect: Cultivate a cycle of podcast → email → product → community → podcast.

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Resources & Where to Find More

• Listen: The Side Hustle Show — Available on all major podcast platforms
• Learn More: Nick’s Podcast Growth Playbook (Podplaybook Co—code NICHE35 for discount)
• Join: Side Hustle Nation community (details in podcast show notes)

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Nick's closing advice:
"Sticking with it, even when the audience is small, is what gets you to the place where you can make the kind of impact—and income—you dream about."

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End of Summary

Transcript

[Host/Advertiser]

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[Nick Loper]

I've seen whatnot climb to the top

[Host/Advertiser]

of the app store. I've seen the seller earnings everything from

[Nick Loper]

small part time projects to multi million dollar businesses.

[Host/Advertiser]

Whatnot is the largest dedicated live shopping platform.

[Co-host/Producer]

They see what you've got, they can

[Nick Loper]

ask you questions, and then they buy.

[Host/Advertiser]

And what's fascinating is they keep coming back for more Whatnot. Buyers are spending more than an hour a day in the app. And all that is great news for sellers. In fact, sellers on whatnot sell 10 times more than on other major marketplaces. That's because you're not just listing products, you're building real connections with buyers. From collectibles to cookies, from resale treasures to vintage fashion. People just like you are building real audiences and real businesses on whatnot. And for a limited time, Whatnot will match your first $150 sold in the first month. Visit whatnot.com sell to start selling. That's W-H-A-T N O T whatnot.com sell whatnot.com sell 700 episodes.

[Jared Bauman]

That's no joke. That is a lot of episodes.

[Nick Loper]

We recently crossed, or are about to cross 35 million lifetime downloads.

[Jared Bauman]

The show is as popular as ever. I know I listened to it at many different points throughout my online journey.

[Nick Loper]

The show earns between 10 and $20,000 a month.

[Jared Bauman]

Starting a podcast is super hard. Would you agree with that?

[Nick Loper]

I think it's easy to start and

[Co-host/Producer]

it's hard to stay started.

[Jared Bauman]

Why is it overlooked by so many people and businesses?

[Nick Loper]

I have found that as listenership grows, it's a really powerful lead.

[Co-host/Producer]

Domino to email, subscriber growth to revenue growth.

[Jared Bauman]

But you shared something that I wanted to talk about. I think you called it the listener pyramid.

[Nick Loper]

This is a four tiered pyramid from strangers to listeners to subscribers to fans

[Co-host/Producer]

at the top of the pyramid.

[Jared Bauman]

Very hard to understand. How to monetize a podcast.

[Nick Loper]

Podcast sponsorships.

[Co-host/Producer]

It's kind of this game of amplitude

[Nick Loper]

and frequency where it's like, how big is the audience and how often can we reach them?

[Jared Bauman]

You're 700 episodes in now. What works well, what doesn't work well?

[Nick Loper]

One of the things that I recognized early on was this is an episode

[Co-host/Producer]

I did with Jared Bauman from the Niche Pursuits podcast. All about the business of the side Hustle show.

[Nick Loper]

So if you ever wanted that behind the scenes look on the marketing, production

[Host/Advertiser]

and monetization behind it, this is the one for you.

[Jared Bauman]

All right, welcome back to the Niche Pursuits podcast. My name is Jared Bauman. Today we are joined by Nick Loper, host of the side Hustle Show. Nick, welcome back to the podcast.

[Nick Loper]

What's happening, man? Thanks for having me.

[Jared Bauman]

It's great to have you. Lots changed in the world of side Hustles. Lots change in the online world. So I'm sure we'll have plenty to talk about. And today we are talking about a particular topic that you have a lot of experience in your podcast, your show, the side Hustle Show. We're going to talk about basically how you grew it, what you did that's working really well and, you know, share a lot of tips along the way. Before we dive into the agenda though, maybe give us some backstory. I'm sure a lot of people won't have heard your previous episodes or new, newer listeners and will want to know more about you.

[Nick Loper]

Yeah. So I'm coming in on 13 years of hosting. The show started in 2013. We're over 700 episodes at this point. Started from kind of a place of my own curiosity and maybe some inflated sense of perceived expertise or like, I'd already had a side hustle that became the thing that let me quit my day job, my one and only corporate job. So I was like, well, I got a little bit of credibility in this space, but I'm still curious to learn more of, well, how'd you come up with that idea? Or how'd you get your first customers for that? Or how'd you figure out how much to charge? All that was was fascinating and still is today. And so that is kind of what drives the show. But prior to that, so I had an affiliate marketing business in the footwear space that was the original side Hustle that, you know, was kind of like my street cred or, you know, ticket entry into the space. But it just fell in love with kind of the entrepreneurial, especially the online business side of things. And there are a million ways, like,

[Co-host/Producer]

I was legitimately worried, like, am I going to run out of people to talk to?

[Nick Loper]

Like, if I commit to doing this every week, what's going to happen? But it' there are more, more stories

[Co-host/Producer]

that come across my desk than there are episodes in the month, for sure.

[Jared Bauman]

700 episodes. That's no joke. That is a lot of episodes. Congratulations You've had a great run, and I feel like the show is as popular as ever. I know I listened to it at many different points throughout my online journey. When I was transitioning from one career to another, I was listening to a lot of the stuff you had going. So I've been a listener for quite a while. It's great to have you on. Thanks for joining us.

[Nick Loper]

Yeah, appreciate you tuning in and love to have people go back and binge on the archives because a lot of it is evergreen stuff.

[Jared Bauman]

It's true. Yeah, you're right. I mean, when you're talking about a side hustle story kind of wrapped up in each podcast episode, a lot of those are very timeless truths that don't change as much as our industry does seem to change. I mean, perhaps we're not flipping shoes on an old Amazon FBA account anymore, but things modernize, things update. But some of a lot of the truths probably still remain the same.

[Co-host/Producer]

Yeah, for sure. And that's kind of been in having

[Nick Loper]

done it as long. There's, like, overarching themes that keep popping

[Co-host/Producer]

up, even though, you know, we're not talking about merch by Amazon or the,

[Nick Loper]

you know, private blog networks or some of the, like, the tactics change, but

[Co-host/Producer]

the overall strategies kind of remain true.

[Jared Bauman]

And do they ever change, though? The tactics, they do change. They change fast, which is why people listen to podcasts, because they got to keep up with that. So. So let's talk about your story. Okay. I mean, you kind of gave the high level of it, but talk about your podcast. That's what we're talking about today. We're going to talk about how you grew it, and I'm really excited about today. I'll just share a quick little intro from myself. I've been blown away with how important hosting a podcast has been to my career and my kind of what I'm doing for a living. I didn't expect a lot of what came out of that. I expected what you see on the surface. And so I'm really excited to have you on to talk about the podcast. You've grown because I'm guessing some of the same themes will come out. And so I just really want to encourage people to listen. You might have thought about a podcast for a long time, you might think it's not a good idea, and maybe today will help, or you might be writing a podcast and looking for ways to grow it and streamline it. So I think there's a lot of different types of people we can talk to today. Okay. My Little intro aside, let's start maybe from the top. What does a show look like today? Maybe give us from the origin to where we're at now, what it looks like to give people an idea of the scope of what the show encompasses.

[Nick Loper]

Yeah. So the show is trying to be heavy on the tactics and light on the theory. This is the show that I wanted to listen to starting back in 2013. Don't. Don't give me this mindset stuff. You know, if you believe it, it'll come true. Like, tell me how you did the thing so I can go do it myself. And that kind of still drives.

[Co-host/Producer]

Drives the show today.

[Nick Loper]

But it was, at that time, it

[Co-host/Producer]

was like, well, if you want to have, you know, a personal brand, an

[Nick Loper]

online business, you know, podcasting or YouTube Plus, a blog.

[Jared Bauman]

Right.

[Co-host/Producer]

Blog was like the standard things, like,

[Nick Loper]

and I thought of myself as a

[Co-host/Producer]

writer first and foremost.

[Nick Loper]

And so the, the second channel was going to be this podcast because it was honestly the lesser of two evils.

[Co-host/Producer]

Like, I don't really want to do YouTube.

[Nick Loper]

That sounds intimidating, that sounds like more work. But I could do this, this podcast. I was a listener of podcasts at the time. Smart, passive income, tropical mba. It was like when I first kind of had that moment of. And it was probably like, probably saw a tweet or something with like a compelling sounding title, clicking on the thing and then realizing there's. There's nothing here. Realizing that it's whatever they promised was buried 40 minutes deep into some MP3 file. Like, almost like an anger response. Like, that's not. That's not cool. But what happened was, like, I figured out the hurdle of getting, you know, finding this, the show, finding the specific episode they're talking about, finding the time to listen to it. Like, well, I was at the gym and then having that epiphany moment of doing that week after week and building that relationship with the hosts, in some cases people I've never met. But, like, I feel like I know them. And, like, that was really, really powerful. It's like, oh, I could do the same thing.

[Co-host/Producer]

I'm going to give this a shot. And I found I really enjoyed doing, doing the interviews, even though, you know, you zoom out on the download chart. Of course, like, it's so close to the.

[Nick Loper]

The Y axis in those early days where it's like, there's, relatively speaking, nobody tuning in, but it was still, like, just enough traction to kind of justify

[Co-host/Producer]

continuing to put in the work and continuing to do it.

[Jared Bauman]

You know, you touched on something because I Hear this from a lot of people. And I didn't have to start this podcast. Spencer had to start it. Spencer had to spend the first, I think, 10 years grinding away to do the hard work. I just walked in and I was

[Nick Loper]

like, oh, wow, we already got a pretty established audience listenership.

[Jared Bauman]

This is wonderful. But I know from being connected to so many podcasters and podcast hosts that starting is. Starting is hard. In anything. I would say starting a podcast, compared to so many other online ventures, YouTube channel, blog, a newsletter, et cetera, et cetera, an E commerce brand, starting a podcast is super hard. Would you agree with that? And what were the biggest struggles out of the gate? And maybe an unexpected one or two that you didn't see coming?

[Nick Loper]

I think it's easy to start and

[Co-host/Producer]

I think it's hard to stay started

[Nick Loper]

because the, the relationship building aspect is probably the most powerful channel that you can have. Something like really intimate.

[Co-host/Producer]

Like, if people are spending literally hours with you in their earbuds and they're doing it over weeks or months or years at a time, that's a really powerful place to be from a creator standpoint.

[Nick Loper]

But it's hard. What you hear that half hour of audio or that hour of audio may

[Co-host/Producer]

have four or five hours behind the scenes prep that went into it.

[Nick Loper]

And in the early days, when nobody's tuning in, it takes the same amount of effort to produce an episode that 10 people listen to or 10,000 people

[Co-host/Producer]

or a hundred thousand people listen to.

[Nick Loper]

So it's like it's a uniquely leveraged

[Co-host/Producer]

platform in that sense. But it can be hard to justify

[Nick Loper]

in the early days keeping it going

[Co-host/Producer]

when you're not seeing the results.

[Jared Bauman]

Yeah, yeah. And that is something that is really challenging already as a podcast host, because you're talking about. I mean, I know there are people listening, but I'm really just talking into a camera and you right now. And so when the numbers back that up, it can be a bit of a lonely space. What were some of the early hits or the early things that worked out well for you that helped catapult you to that next level? I know the growth curve you talked about is like, it was so small for so long in comparison to now, but, like, surely you had some wins along the way that either validated the idea, gave you that shot of energy, or brought you that first batch of real solid listeners.

[Nick Loper]

One of the things that I recognized

[Co-host/Producer]

early on was you've got to sell it.

[Nick Loper]

You got to sell the content through whatever ways you have. And it's really difficult even if the meat of the episode is really, really strong, for most cases, it's going to be just the title, right?

[Co-host/Producer]

And it's going to be on a small screen.

[Nick Loper]

It's going to be, why should I

[Co-host/Producer]

invest my 40 minutes into listening to this? What is the transformation?

[Nick Loper]

Right?

[Co-host/Producer]

It's like I did an interview. This would be years ago, where the

[Nick Loper]

host did what they were supposed to

[Co-host/Producer]

do after the episode went live.

[Nick Loper]

They're like, hey, Nick, thanks so much for joining us. Your episode's live today. Feel free to check it out and

[Co-host/Producer]

share if you think it's worthwhile.

[Nick Loper]

And I click on the thing and it literally says episode 33, Nick Loper. And I'm like, what is in it for me? Like, why would anybody click on this? Nobody knows who I am. Like, why? Why do I care? Right? And so a couple early titles that

[Co-host/Producer]

worked and was like, episode one or two was like, from, you know, heavy metal college band to six figure agency or, you know, how one, this was episode five. Still remember this guy, how one fiverr seller earned enough money to buy a house in his first year or something? And I was like, wait, how did you possibly.

[Nick Loper]

What could you possibly be selling for $5 that you earned enough to buy a house?

[Co-host/Producer]

And he's like, nick, Nick, Nick. It's all about the upsells, baby.

[Nick Loper]

It's like, I love it. But those kind of like hooks, because

[Co-host/Producer]

that's what drew me into podcasting at first was like, it's such a hurdle

[Nick Loper]

to get somebody to listen to the first time.

[Co-host/Producer]

You got to make it really, really compelling. It's something that Niche Pursuits does really well, like going through some of your recent titles. And it's like, you know, numbers, attention, time frames, like how I built, you

[Nick Loper]

know, $100,000 business in six months, you know, with no experience, like those kind

[Co-host/Producer]

of things, overcoming objections, like, it works really well.

[Jared Bauman]

We do put a decent amount of time into that. There's a lot of back and forth, too, trying to figure out what's. What's going to hit, where's where. Like, give us some numbers, whatever you're comfortable with on where it's at today. Because I think it's a bit crazy to think about when you share some of the numbers that I know are behind it. I might not even know all the numbers, but I know some of the big headline numbers to the side Hustle show.

[Nick Loper]

Yeah. So we recently crossed, or about to cross, 35 million lifetime downloads, not including the YouTube side of things, just the audio side. It reaches a couple hundred Thousand downloads a month, maybe a little bit more,

[Co-host/Producer]

maybe a little bit less.

[Nick Loper]

And the number that we kind of pay attention to this was on pod track.

[Co-host/Producer]

And I don't know if maybe Megaphone or maybe Spotify will tell you something similar, but like the number of unique devices is kind of a measure, an estimated metric of the audience size, where it's around 100,000 unique listeners per month,

[Nick Loper]

which is really intimidating in a way. Like you imagine standing at the 50

[Co-host/Producer]

yard line of the Horseshoe in Columbus or the big House in Michigan, like

[Nick Loper]

these a hundred thousand person stadiums and just, you know, me and Jared having

[Co-host/Producer]

a chat here and it's being broadcast

[Nick Loper]

to all these people.

[Co-host/Producer]

It's intimidating, but it's also really, really powerful.

[Jared Bauman]

It's, it's, it. I agree with you. Again, if you don't think about that way, you feel like you're just having a conversation with someone one on one, but then you realize the scope of something. 35 million downloads, that is a staggering number. Let's talk about, if we can, why podcasting beats so many other channels and the value that it's given to your business. I teased it a bit because I was surprised by that. But again, I didn't start this. I just came into a brand that was already established. So I'm sure the benefits for you have been even more far reaching given the size, the scope and the journey that you've been on. Like, why is podcasting such a good medium? Why is it overlooked by so many people and businesses like, share with us some of the highs that have come from podcasting.

[Nick Loper]

Yeah, what's funny is it felt, even in 2013, it felt crowded, it felt saturated. Like, does the world really need another entrepreneur interview podcast? There were already, you know, EO fire

[Co-host/Producer]

and mixergy and you know, there's.

[Nick Loper]

It had been done, right? But it's like, okay, this, the specific niche, you know, to the niche pursuits thing, it was like the niche of

[Co-host/Producer]

side hustles for some reason resonated with people.

[Nick Loper]

But it's again like this powerful relationship building thing. I have found that as listenership grows, that's a really powerful lead.

[Co-host/Producer]

Domino to email subscriber growth, to revenue growth, where it becomes, I don't know,

[Nick Loper]

there's this community building component to it

[Co-host/Producer]

and I have like the Facebook group to thank for that a little bit. The email list to thank for that a little bit.

[Nick Loper]

Where it's trying to make it from,

[Co-host/Producer]

you know, just pure broadcast medium, one to many.

[Nick Loper]

Like, how can we make it many? To me, like, there's There's a community of side hustlers out there where it doesn't have to be so lonely, which, you know, there's a lot of people toiling away nights and weekends trying to build their thing. It's like, no, there's other people out there who kind of are bought into

[Co-host/Producer]

the same idea and they understand it's

[Nick Loper]

a long term type of journey and

[Co-host/Producer]

we're, we're all along the ride together. So I'm trying to build that along the way has been pretty powerful too.

[Host/Advertiser]

I'll be right back with more behind the scenes details on the side Hustle show coming up right after this. When you're a small business, the right hire can be make or break Hoping the right people see your job posting really isn't the best growth strategy when the pressure's on and you need the right hire. This is a job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs. Indeed Sponsored Jobs get you the quality candidates when you need them most.

[Co-host/Producer]

Like yesterday.

[Host/Advertiser]

How it works is Sponsored Jobs boosts your job post in the search results

[Nick Loper]

so you can reach the people with

[Host/Advertiser]

the exact skills, experience and qualifications you need to help your business thrive. Plus, with Indeed Sponsored Jobs you only pay for results. There's no monthly subscriptions or long term contracts. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes with less stress, less time and more results when you need the right person to cut through the chaos. This is a job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs. Inside Hustle show listeners will get a $75 sponsored job credit to help get your job the premium status it deserves@ Indeed.com podcast just go to Indeed.com podcast right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podc indeed.com podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need to hire? This is a job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs. Right now we're all trying to do more with less and I want to let you in on a tool that lean, mean, high performing teams are using right now to be more efficient and buy back some of their time. Our sponsor, Gusto is the online payroll and benefits software built for small businesses. It's all in one. It's remote, friendly and it's incredibly easy to use. So that means you can pay, hire onboard and support your team from anywhere. I'm talking about automatic payroll tax filing, simple direct deposits, health benefits, workers comp 401k, you name it. Gusto makes it simple and has options for nearly every budget. And if you ever have any questions, you've got direct access to Gusto's certified HR experts so you can get back to running your business. But you don't have to.

[Co-host/Producer]

Just take my word for it.

[Host/Advertiser]

Gusto is ranked number one on G2's highest satisfaction products list for 2026, and it's already trusted by over 400,000 small businesses. I want to invite you to try gusto [e-mail] sidehustle and get three months free when you run your first payroll. That's three months of free payroll at gusto.com sidehustle one more time, it's Gusto. G-U-S-T-O.com sidehustle are there gains or economies

[Jared Bauman]

of scale that come with it? Is it something where, you know, like so many other platforms, they build upon themselves? You know, when you have a YouTube channel that can grow on itself and actually get easier, that can become something that your efforts start to multiply? Is that the case with podcasting, or is it really more of a grind? You've been doing a weekly show for so long, or is it some of both?

[Nick Loper]

There's probably a little bit of both. Where, you know, it's kind of like

[Co-host/Producer]

there's an old, you know, an old GM saying where, you know, being number one sells cars, where, you know, if you can show up on lists of the best entrepreneurship podcasts, the best side hustle podcasts.

[Nick Loper]

Like, it kind of becomes a virtuous

[Co-host/Producer]

circle over time where it's like, well,

[Nick Loper]

he's been doing it for so long.

[Co-host/Producer]

It must be worth tuning into. Look at all these five star reviews.

[Nick Loper]

I think there is that element to it, but there is a, you know, kind of repetitiveness or, you know, almost

[Co-host/Producer]

an identity has become part of my identity. Well, every Thursday, it's just something that happens. It's, you know, another episode comes out.

[Nick Loper]

So there is that grind to it

[Co-host/Producer]

where you kind of have to keep recreating the product week after week after week versus a, you know, a blog article, even though it is evergreen. Right. It's.

[Nick Loper]

It has a shorter shelf life in a lot of cases than that blog

[Co-host/Producer]

article that could stick in the search results for years.

[Jared Bauman]

Yeah, okay. You hit on it perfectly. Like it. It feels like there is a little bit of both worlds in that it's a grind because you have to produce content fairly consistently. You know, most podcasts that work over a long period of time are consistent at the same time, though, and you already touched on the listenership that you get, is pretty loyal and comes back frequently versus a blog where more often than not, most of the traffic to blogs is kind of One and done. So I can see both sides.

[Nick Loper]

Yeah. And then just the relationship of it.

[Co-host/Producer]

It's like, you know, the, you know, I might spend 30 seconds like scrolling a blog.

[Nick Loper]

Like if I land from Google, I scroll the headers on the blog post or I like trying to answer a spec question and I find that the, the website audience for side hustlenation.com is much more transient or transactional versus the podcast listeners. Sometimes have been there for years, sometimes they listen to hundreds of episodes where, and they're much more long term thinking and you know, they're, I think podcast listeners are completionist by nature where it's like, look, if I, if I start

[Co-host/Producer]

this thing and it's not awful, like

[Nick Loper]

I'm going to see it through to the 40 minute mark, you know, versus you see the drop off charts on

[Co-host/Producer]

YouTube and everything else. It's like now they're much more loyal and dedicated.

[Jared Bauman]

Yep. Okay, good. You shared something in our back and forth as we were preparing for this. Yes folks, there's preparation, as you alluded to for these podcasts. It takes time. But you shared something that I wanted to talk about and it was, I think you called it the listener pyramid and you had a nice framework for thinking through these different levels, if you will. And again, I'm using my own vernacular and how I define it, but could you go in and talk about this listener pyramid and explain it to the listeners?

[Nick Loper]

Yeah, I think this is an important framework to keep in mind and you

[Co-host/Producer]

could substitute whatever asset, creative asset that you're trying to build. But in terms of podcasting, this is

[Nick Loper]

a four tiered pyramid from strangers to listeners to subscribers to fans.

[Co-host/Producer]

At the top of the pyramid, the

[Nick Loper]

fans are the people who are shouting from the rooftops. They love you. They buy everything that you have to sell. They are evangelizing for you. But every piece of content that you create is designed to kind of ascend

[Co-host/Producer]

people along this ladder or up this pyramid.

[Nick Loper]

And the challenge is the, the base of the pyramid, the biggest people, the biggest section of the pyramid is strangers. It's the people who don't know you exist.

[Co-host/Producer]

And it's such a battle to try and fight for awareness. And podcast discoverability is, is really, really challenging.

[Nick Loper]

And it's like one of the reasons

[Co-host/Producer]

why it can be such a slow

[Nick Loper]

slog is you think about, well, how

[Co-host/Producer]

do you find other shows is probably

[Nick Loper]

because a friend told you to go check it out. Oh, it's almost like always word of mouth and so trying to encourage that and make it so compelling and Share worthy that you, like, you almost have

[Co-host/Producer]

to tell somebody about that. I don't know if you're like a

[Nick Loper]

history fan, but it's like when you first discover Dan Carlin and his like

[Co-host/Producer]

five hour marathon rants about World War

[Nick Loper]

II or Alexander the Great, and you're like, this is incredible. Like, you almost have to tell somebody about it.

[Co-host/Producer]

Or like vintage Pat Flynn where it's

[Nick Loper]

like, oh, I was out at Walmart and I was scanning these clearance items and you know, all of a sudden I sent that into Amazon and it was like, you can like, hold on, I gotta, I gotta go download this app right now and go check out Walmart. You know, you have to tell your, you know, frugal shopping friends about this. Like, did you know this was a thing? And so trying to.

[Co-host/Producer]

And I don't hit that every time out, but like trying to make it

[Nick Loper]

compelling with those businesses or those side hustles. Like, we had a guy renting out portable hot tubs. We had a woman who was a professional photo organizer. We've had people renting out mobility scooters or buying billboards or doing pet waste removal businesses. It's just like the novelty factor, I think, definitely checks the box where people

[Co-host/Producer]

are like, I got to, I got to share this. I got to help spread the word of mouth there.

[Jared Bauman]

I'm looking through the latest podcasts and, you know, obviously this is at time of recording, but we've got a junk hauling business flipping lawnmowers. This is a college kid, I mean, reselling software. I didn't even know you could do that. Like, yeah, you're right. There's some really compelling things where I'm like, man, I wish I had about four hours today where I could just go listen to some of these. Some of those is your storytelling. Some of these is the way you titled it. Some of these is just the fact that you keep finding these really interesting ideas over and over again.

[Nick Loper]

Yeah, it's been a blast. So going back to this.

[Jared Bauman]

Yeah.

[Nick Loper]

Converting strangers into listeners, you know, finding

[Co-host/Producer]

those stories, encouraging word of mouth, writing the titles in such a way that

[Nick Loper]

make people want to overcome the burden, the hurdle to like, find the show,

[Co-host/Producer]

find that specific episode, find the time to listen to it. Like, all of the steps they have to take.

[Nick Loper]

And then we go through, or I

[Co-host/Producer]

go through kind of a lot of effort in guesting on other shows like this one. Like, John Lee Dumas has the line,

[Nick Loper]

well, podcasters listen to podcasts, and so

[Co-host/Producer]

he makes an effort to guest on other shows and rarely Would, would turn one down unless there's truly like nobody listening to it. But it's like getting in front of other people's audiences.

[Nick Loper]

And then lately we've been doing a

[Co-host/Producer]

lot of paid promotion in the listener growth areas through different podcast apps where you can promote your show and try and drive listeners that way too.

[Jared Bauman]

Oh, I want to ask you about that later on. That's, that's interesting. All right, well, maybe we can kind of start to break down each one of these. Is that, is that, do you mind if I ask you more questions about that? How to get someone to move from one to the one to the next. Okay, let's go. Strangers, listeners. I'll just leave it open ended. How do you get people from strangers to become listeners? I basically just repeated exactly what I said the first time.

[Nick Loper]

Yeah, that was, that was kind of

[Co-host/Producer]

the section I just went through with

[Nick Loper]

the compelling titles, with the podcast promotion, with the guesting on other shows. And then we try and play like some very simple, you know, podcast SEO

[Co-host/Producer]

with the, you know, we still want

[Nick Loper]

to make the title compelling, but we also want to make sure we're including. What did we talk about? If we did an episode about Instagram marketing, we want to make sure we

[Co-host/Producer]

have Instagram marketing in the title of that episode.

[Nick Loper]

The itunes search algorithm, the Spotify search algorithm, even YouTube to a certain extent is not nearly as sophisticated as Google is.

[Co-host/Producer]

It's just very keyword driven. So making sure if you have a well known guest, including, including their name in the title of the podcast, like trying to make it easy for people

[Nick Loper]

to search and discover, like I don't think that's a huge driver percentage wise

[Co-host/Producer]

of listeners, but it's not going to hurt you.

[Nick Loper]

And then, but especially on YouTube, like

[Co-host/Producer]

it can be really evergreen. And a lot of the titles on YouTube are like how to. Titles like how to build a window washing business, you know, up to $10,000 a month.

[Nick Loper]

Right.

[Co-host/Producer]

It's trying to capture both the keyword and, and the compelling reason to click.

[Jared Bauman]

Yeah, okay. Yeah. Do you ever modify your titles after the podcast episode goes live? Do you ever modify it on YouTube to capture different audiences? Do you find that that has any effect or is because really you are looking at, especially on YouTube, like when you launch the podcast, it is serving one type of audience, your listeners who routinely wait for a new episode to go live on YouTube. That's their medium of choice. But then like you said, over time you're really more trying to get into the search and discovery side of YouTube where you're trying to target people who might not be familiar with the podcast, might not even be familiar with the fact that they would be clicking on a podcast, but are really more topically searching for something.

[Nick Loper]

Yeah, the YouTube titles and really the website titles are much more keyword driven or SEO driven.

[Co-host/Producer]

And then the podcast title, the one that goes out into the Spotify feed, the Apple feed, is probably more curiosity driven.

[Nick Loper]

And so instead of like leading with the keyword or the topic, it will

[Co-host/Producer]

often lead with the. The dollar amount, like a thousand dollars

[Nick Loper]

a month with this unique real estate

[Co-host/Producer]

strategy or something versus, you know, how

[Nick Loper]

to buy a co living house or, you know, it's kind of just shifting it around differently where it's the same

[Co-host/Producer]

topic, but presented a little bit differently for different audiences.

[Jared Bauman]

Okay, perfect. Well, then let's move on to that second stage. So again, we started with strangers. They've turned into listeners. How do we move them from listeners to subscribers?

[Nick Loper]

Yeah, this is really important because now somebody has voted for you. They said, look, I'm going to give this a shot.

[Co-host/Producer]

Now you got to deliver on what you promised.

[Nick Loper]

That means cutting to the chase. That means being respectful of people's time.

[Co-host/Producer]

You can kind of see the evolution of this over the course of 12 years of the show where it's like, used to have this, you know, voiceover

[Nick Loper]

guy and this musical intro, and it would be 45 seconds before you even start talking.

[Co-host/Producer]

It's like, no, cut to the chase.

[Nick Loper]

Actually, a friend of mine had a productivity show and she would start, we

[Co-host/Producer]

don't have an intro because we'd never waste your time.

[Nick Loper]

Boom, three seconds in, and she's like,

[Co-host/Producer]

already onto the topic. And it's like, oh, okay, yes.

[Nick Loper]

So trying to get to the point quickly, editing for clarity, length, brevity.

[Co-host/Producer]

And that's kind of where I spend my time in post production is saying,

[Nick Loper]

like, what was the most boring 10% of this episode?

[Co-host/Producer]

Right.

[Nick Loper]

If we recorded for an hour, could

[Co-host/Producer]

we make it 50 minutes?

[Nick Loper]

That kind of thing. Just being respectful of people's time, Delivering

[Co-host/Producer]

on that promise that you made in

[Nick Loper]

the title and description and then trying to convert that one time listener into a subscriber. And so maybe it is referencing relevant past episodes. Hey, if you listen to this, you

[Co-host/Producer]

might also want to listen to this.

[Nick Loper]

We do a lot of episode specific

[Co-host/Producer]

lead magnets where if, you know, we talked about building a Facebook marketing funnel,

[Nick Loper]

or like, okay, we'll download your free companion worksheet on how to build your own funnel. Or we talked about renting out portable hot tubs, here's 25 other unconventional things

[Co-host/Producer]

you could rent out for a profit. You know, enter your email here. Or kind of a broader, you know, podcast driven lead magnet would be like,

[Nick Loper]

look, there's over 700 episodes. I'd love to have you binge on the archives, but you probably stretched for time a little bit, so why don't you go build yourself a personal, personalized playlist. Just answer a few short questions at Hustle Show. You can do it on your phone and it'll build you, like, based on your answers.

[Co-host/Producer]

A custom playlist of our greatest hits. Trying to drive listeners into email subscribers specifically in that case. But audio subscribers would be great as well.

[Jared Bauman]

You've talked about it a couple times now at different passages. And so I want to ask, like, how much of a flow do you have for calling people to take action at various points during a podcast episode? And what have you landed on? Like, have you discovered something works better than another? I'm just curious because it's evident that you are not just looking at a podcast episode as a piece of content, but also as an opportunity to kind of get people engaged at different phases of the funnel.

[Nick Loper]

Yeah, I used to do it beginning and end. Lately it's mostly just been at the

[Co-host/Producer]

end, like that specific call to action to go do that thing. If I'm really organized, I'll do it like as the lead into my first ad break.

[Nick Loper]

Like, hey, we put together a special bonus, special listener bonus for this episode. Make sure to grab it here. And we'll be right back with Jared

[Co-host/Producer]

after a word from our sponsors.

[Nick Loper]

And so just trying to tease it a little bit, putting that, putting it out there, you know, it's.

[Co-host/Producer]

This is kind of like radio advertising where it's repetition, repetition, and awareness kind of.

[Nick Loper]

That's another thing that kind of, you

[Co-host/Producer]

know, to go from when we get to subscribers to fans. But like verbal cues, verbal repetition. We've taken a page out of the, like the morning radio playbook where they got. They run the same segments every morning. Like the commuter traffic kind of knows what to expect. And there's like, if there's inside jokes, they kind of feel like they're in on it. And so trying to incorporate those types of elements into the show as well.

[Jared Bauman]

Yeah, traffic on the eights. I don't really listen to radio anymore, but I remember that from commuting back in the day. They'd always, you know, have some flow to that. Okay, I know fans are the holy grail, but is getting listeners into subscribers, Is that where you can kind of start to see things tip, where you start to get the scale. Where does that start to happen?

[Nick Loper]

Yeah, this was a really big inflection

[Co-host/Producer]

point for me in the business because this would be a little over a year into the show and kind of this embarrassing that it took this long. But like, this epiphany moment of like,

[Nick Loper]

look, the show at that stage especially

[Co-host/Producer]

is not a business on its own. It is a content marketing arm for the business. And when I started treating it as such and really got intentional about converting

[Nick Loper]

listeners, what, what few listeners I had into email subscribers, that was the turning point, right?

[Co-host/Producer]

So I had like a thousand email subscribers at that point. A little over a year into it, grateful for every one of those, like,

[Nick Loper]

very early audience members.

[Co-host/Producer]

And some of them are still around today. It's been awesome.

[Nick Loper]

But once we got intentional, like, hey,

[Co-host/Producer]

look, you're out walking the dog, you're at the gym, you're driving in your car, you're not in a great place to take notes.

[Nick Loper]

Don't worry, we did it for you. All you have to do is go

[Co-host/Producer]

to side hustlenation.com Whatever the episode was,

[Nick Loper]

download the free PDF.

[Co-host/Producer]

We called it the highlight reel. Like the SportsCenter version, the highlight reel of what we just talked about with

[Nick Loper]

all the guests, top tips, you download it for free.

[Co-host/Producer]

Within three months of doing that consistently, the email list was 3,000. Within six months it was 6,000. Within a year, it was 12,000.

[Nick Loper]

So it was just really big, kind

[Co-host/Producer]

of like inflection point or hockey stick moment for the email growth.

[Nick Loper]

And now all of a sudden, instead of this anonymous medium, I don't have

[Co-host/Producer]

any idea who's tuning in.

[Nick Loper]

I could see the little blips on

[Co-host/Producer]

the download chart, but, like, who knows who these people are, right?

[Nick Loper]

All of a sudden I have email.

[Co-host/Producer]

I can promote my latest offer. I can promote the latest episode. Hey, you might want to check this out.

[Nick Loper]

If this is relevant to you. They've got something in their inbox they can easily forward and share to a friend, like, hey, you should check out this show. Or you should check this out for affiliate offers for newsletter sponsorships that we do now.

[Co-host/Producer]

That was really, really important. And that's why I think that listeners

[Nick Loper]

into subscribers step is really crucial because

[Co-host/Producer]

otherwise it's just anonymous. You're kind of like relying on somebody

[Nick Loper]

to download your thing, even if they have, like, you know, the push notifications.

[Co-host/Producer]

But another touch point, get people into the inbox. Really powerful.

[Jared Bauman]

Yeah, you mentioned that you have a good, you know, this is all about driving people from the podcast to become a subscriber for email. But then you also said earlier that you are constantly pushing email subscribers back to different podcast episodes. I mean, it sounds almost like a flywheel effect. Like how important is that flywheel effect is. Is that just happen because you're looking to give them more content and thus the podcast is what you recommend or is it more strategic than just that?

[Nick Loper]

Yeah, I hope so. I mean, the most of the stuff

[Co-host/Producer]

they send out, probably 90% of the

[Nick Loper]

stuff I send out is just a

[Co-host/Producer]

newsletter based on what the latest episode is about and trying to do it in a text version.

[Nick Loper]

Look, if you don't want to listen to this, I want to give you

[Co-host/Producer]

the meat of what we talked about here, or at least a high enough level overview where you could say, like,

[Nick Loper]

oh, that's interesting and then make the decision.

[Co-host/Producer]

I want to go listen to it more and more. And that's been an evolution over time. Whereas they used to be very short,

[Nick Loper]

like, check out the latest episodes, like,

[Co-host/Producer]

give me a little bit more before

[Nick Loper]

I commit to this. But it's also a channel to promote affiliate partners, promote my own products.

[Co-host/Producer]

And so it's been just having that extra touch point where it does kind of like you mentioned, flywheel, or where it just is, you know, trying to. I mean, the whole goal is, you know, when somebody thinks side hustle, like hopefully they think of side Hustle Nation and the side Hustle show and like being being part of that ecosystem or being kind of at the center of

[Host/Advertiser]

that hub, we're almost to the top of the pyramid. Stick around for that. Plus the all important monetization question coming up right after this.

[Nick Loper]

A lot of side hustlers suffer from

[Host/Advertiser]

this debilitating disease called what if itis? What if it doesn't work? What if I don't have the skills? What if I picked the wrong path? But one thing 100% of our amazing side Hustle show guests have in common is they took their shot. They faced down those what ifs and they got their answers through taking action. Our partner, Shopify helps you turn those what ifs into why nots. Shopify is the commerce platform that powers millions of businesses around the world. What if you never built a website before? Well, they've got hundreds of ready to use templates that help you build a beautiful online store that matches your brand's style. What if people haven't heard about your brand? That's where everybody starts. Shopify helps you find your customers with email and scroll, stopping social media campaigns.

[Co-host/Producer]

Too.

[Host/Advertiser]

And what if you get stuck? Shopify's always around to share advice with their award winning 24. 7 customer support. It's time to turn those what ifs into with Shopify today. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.comsidehustle go to shopify.comsidehustleen that's shopify.comsidehustlez in sports, there's this saying that speed is a weapon. And the same is true in business. If you're missing calls or being slow to follow up with customers, you're leaving money on the table, sometimes without even realizing it. Because your potential customer, they've already moved on. That's why today's episode is brought to you by Quo, spelled Q U O. This is the business communications built so you never miss a call.

[Nick Loper]

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[Host/Advertiser]

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[Nick Loper]

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[Jared Bauman]

about turning people, turning subscribers. Sorry. Into fans. And you know, I think of Seth Godin when I think of Tribes, his book on that. I think of like, like the idea of a fan. Maybe define what that is for the context we're talking about here. And then I'd love to hear some ways that you found work. Well, to turn subscribers into fans. Yeah.

[Co-host/Producer]

A fan in you know, my case would be somebody who buys a product. This would be somebody who shares the episode with a friend. This would be somebody who listens to everything that you put out. Like that's kind of fandom. In, in my case, maybe they support the sponsors of the show. It's kind of the, the pinnacle of

[Nick Loper]

the pyramid because that's like what you would want. Everybody, if you had an audience of

[Co-host/Producer]

only fans, like, that would be incredible.

[Nick Loper]

Right?

[Co-host/Producer]

And you could imagine the flywheel that would start to spin.

[Nick Loper]

So some of those elements that get people there, you know, having the additional touch points.

[Co-host/Producer]

They've joined the Facebook group, they've joined the email list.

[Nick Loper]

They are engaging with other listeners, maybe in the Facebook group, asking and answering questions that would be really cool.

[Co-host/Producer]

Somebody that does it really well is Sam and Sean from my first million.

[Nick Loper]

They don't talk about it as much

[Co-host/Producer]

as they used to, but they used to always harp on the gentleman's agreement,

[Nick Loper]

where it's like, look, we're making this content for free. We don't ask for much, but there is a gentleman's agreement, and that's that

[Co-host/Producer]

you hit the subscribe button, that you hit the follow button on whatever platform it is, and it's like, oh, this is. This is. I'm just got to hold up my end of the bargain, right?

[Nick Loper]

It's kind of became some of their,

[Co-host/Producer]

you know, internal language that they use similar, like, no. No small boy stuff. Right? It's something that they would say over and over again.

[Nick Loper]

And so they kind of have built

[Co-host/Producer]

their own little language. I think they even have merch for this stuff. Now, if you wanted a shirt that says no small boy stuff, but stuff

[Nick Loper]

like that, to send people into fandom

[Co-host/Producer]

and make, you know, making offers. Because, like, one of the first things that ever offered on the show into the audience was a private mastermind.

[Nick Loper]

For the really low price of 100

[Co-host/Producer]

bucks a month, I will host this private mastermind. And I think I got like five or six applications, maybe seven applications for this a little less than a year into the show.

[Nick Loper]

I don't think I would have gotten

[Co-host/Producer]

any applications if it weren't for the relationship having been built over the course of that first year through audio.

[Jared Bauman]

I mean, you're 700 episodes in now, so surely I can ask you some questions about, like, what works well, what doesn't work well. I know it will be specific to you and your podcast, to you and your listenership, to you and your topic. However, I've got to imagine you've got some somewhat global thoughts on what works well and what doesn't work well, what people, what keeps people coming back, what types of episodes work well. And don't worry, folks, I'm going to talk. I'm going to ask them all about monetization next as soon as we get through this. So if you want to know about monetizing a podcast, it is on the agenda coming up.

[Nick Loper]

Yeah, I think for both of our shows, one of the transition points or elevation points from subscribers into fans is somebody who has heard an idea, taken action on it, and seen the result.

[Co-host/Producer]

Like, oh, I heard about this strategy on your show. I tried it, and what do you know? It worked. I actually made money from this. And now all of a sudden, it's like, this is real. And so that's really cool. I got an email the other day from a listener, from a subscriber, like,

[Nick Loper]

oh, I took my family to Disneyland. Family of six to Disneyland because of something that I heard on your show. I was like, that's like, that's incredible.

[Co-host/Producer]

Like, I, you know, have a little tag in Gmail that says, you know, testimonials. Like, okay, I'll file this one away, you know, for those rainy days when you get some hate. But it was. That kind of stuff is really, really cool to hear from listeners. And I imagine you get the same

[Jared Bauman]

from time to time. We do. You're right. It is nice to hear. Yeah, it is nice to hear. Especially, like, I remember at various points, either having a guest on, and then we get stories, you know, many months later, having even something that we've talked about as hosts, Spencer and I or Thomas and I, and talked about it a decent amount, and then seen people have success. It's really. It's. It's pretty amazing to kind of play a role in that.

[Nick Loper]

And you can kind of bring those,

[Co-host/Producer]

you know, now that the show's been going for long enough, you have, like, almost generations of it where it's like,

[Nick Loper]

okay, we first aired this topic about

[Co-host/Producer]

becoming a, you know, a mobile notary loan signing agent. And then like a year later, oh,

[Nick Loper]

somebody listened to that episode and is

[Co-host/Producer]

now doing the thing and making thousands of dollars a month.

[Nick Loper]

And now, you know, somebody listened to that episode. It's like, almost like there's, like, their

[Co-host/Producer]

grandchildren or their podcast grandchildren, inspiration babies. And it's been really cool to kind

[Nick Loper]

of breathe new life into these, you

[Co-host/Producer]

know, topics that we've talked about, like, oh, that still works. And that is something that people are seeing results with.

[Jared Bauman]

That's a great point. It's a great point. Yeah. The longevity can only help in those situations. All right, well, I could ask a lot more questions about it, but I want to make sure we leave some time for monetization here. Sponsorships are, from what I understand, either a big part of this, your podcast, or really the biggest part of your podcast when it comes to monetization. Talk about it from a high level. What does that look like? Where have you landed with that? What has worked historically over the years, what hasn't worked. I think that's a big fear for people is when they start a podcast. It's such a big unknown that they don't really know much about that side of things. We can go look at what it looks like to get YouTube followers and to get more YouTube views, but it's very hard to understand how to monetize a podcast.

[Co-host/Producer]

You're 100% right. The big piece of the monetization pie is traditional sponsorships, which is something that I'm really grateful for.

[Nick Loper]

It's well suited for me where it's like I can focus on just making the content that I want to make, like playing the part of the curious

[Co-host/Producer]

host and finding brands that are in alignment with the audience and making that pitch. That's something that I feel really good about. And it's like, I can get paid. The audience gets the stuff that they

[Nick Loper]

want for free and the advertisers get

[Co-host/Producer]

access to that audience.

[Nick Loper]

What I was hesitant to do for

[Co-host/Producer]

a long time, for a lot of years, I sold the show myself in terms of sponsorships.

[Nick Loper]

And for the sake of disclosure, it's

[Co-host/Producer]

probably three years before this was even a meaningful source of income.

[Nick Loper]

So it was like, definitely put in the time before any sponsors really came

[Co-host/Producer]

knocking and being like, can we sponsor the show? So if you have less than 5 or 10,000 downloads per episode, this may not be a viable path. So the audience size has to be there. Podcast sponsorships, it's kind of this game of amplitude and frequency where it's like,

[Nick Loper]

how big is the audience and how

[Co-host/Producer]

often can we reach them? And so it's like if you have a daily show with a big audience, then yeah, this could be a really viable path.

[Nick Loper]

Math.

[Co-host/Producer]

But if you have a weekly show with a smaller audience, like, ah, does

[Nick Loper]

the math really work out? But I was trying to sell the

[Co-host/Producer]

show myself for a lot of years

[Nick Loper]

because I had brands reaching out. That's where it started. Like brands were reaching out proactively to me, Teachable, freshbooks, some of the early sponsors. And I was like, yeah, let's, let's make a deal. What I was really hesitant to do

[Co-host/Producer]

was the industry has shift toward dynamic insertion and it has shifted toward third party, like ad brokerage agencies to go out and sell the show. And so I've been with Yap Media Young and Profiting Media with Halataja for the last 2 ish years and they

[Nick Loper]

again, I was hesitant to do it. It's like, why do I need to pay 30% to some agency where the brands are coming to me directly.

[Jared Bauman]

Yep.

[Co-host/Producer]

But way bigger brands, way bigger deals,

[Nick Loper]

way longer term contracts. And it's just freed up so much time to like focus on actually making the show, actually making the content.

[Co-host/Producer]

So making more than I ever did before and doing less work on the sponsorship side than I did before. So I was like, oh, I should have done that a long time ago. You know, dragging me kicking and screaming into like the era of modern podcast monetization.

[Nick Loper]

But I'll say this too. Like, sponsorships is just one way to go.

[Co-host/Producer]

And if you don't have that audience size, you have to get a little more creative. And in a lot of cases, it's

[Nick Loper]

selling your own stuff or using the podcast as a promotion channel for your own services, for your own products, for

[Co-host/Producer]

your own community, for even promoting your

[Nick Loper]

guest stuff as an affiliate perhaps. Although that's kind of driven by audience size as well.

[Co-host/Producer]

But lots of different ways to kind of ring the cash register as a host.

[Jared Bauman]

You didn't say it this way, but I almost heard almost summarize, like, step one, get an audience of some size. Step two, brands start to interact with brands that are a good fit. Hopefully they're also interacting with you. And then step three, to some degree, get big enough to where the deal size, the agency route can really give. Give you those economies of scale.

[Nick Loper]

Yeah. So if a typical, you know, mid roll CPM is $25, and if you

[Co-host/Producer]

have two mid roll spots and 1,000 people listening, you're like, okay, I can make 50 bucks an episode. And it's like, but it's uniquely scalable. It's like, well, If I have 10,000 people listening now, that's 500 bucks an episode. Or if I have 100,000 people now, it's whatever.

[Nick Loper]

I can't do public math, but maybe it's 5,000. So it does scale pretty well.

[Co-host/Producer]

And even HALA and the ad sales

[Nick Loper]

team is like, longer episodes, more ad breaks, more. Could you publish three times a week? Come on, what's going on? We need more inventory to sell. It's like, hey, look, I'm happy with where I'm at, but how about we add pre rolls? Like it's, you know, it's really okay.

[Jared Bauman]

Can you give us any sort of idea? And again, I don't want to put you on the spot for an exact amount, but can you give us any sort of idea? Like what type of. If you're consistent, if you're publishing a weekly show, that kind of the things you talked about, like what kind of Money is a podcast going to bring in from sponsorship just to give people an idea, whether it's use your own as an example or kind of of go down the route of maybe 25,000 monthly downloads, like, whatever it looks like, I just want to give people an idea of what a primarily monetized podcast could look like. And then I want to ask you a few more questions about using the podcast to drive value elsewhere in your business.

[Nick Loper]

Yeah, so for me, the show earns between 10 and $20,000 a month for the six episodes that we put out,

[Co-host/Producer]

like every Thursday and every other Monday ends up being 5ish, 5 or 6 hours worth of content. Of course there's work behind the scenes that goes into that, but it's a tough gig to give up. It's like I gotta make my hour

[Nick Loper]

of radio a week and to be

[Co-host/Producer]

able to get paid what I do on the flexible schedule that I have, like never, never would have imagined that, like when I started with, with a $60 mic in the corner of the living room, like in all of the self doubt, like no idea what I'm doing, is anybody going to tune into this? Is anybody going to care? Just going to embarrass myself, like what it has turned into and kind of the lifestyle that it has allowed and afforded us is like something I'll just ever for, forever be grateful for.

[Jared Bauman]

And I mean, you've put in the time and the years at the same time. I mean, you've also talked about how, you know, once you start to figure out the levers to pull, once you start to figure out what works with your audience, when you start to figure out how, you know, you find the frequency, you find the amount, the type of people, you find all those types of things. When that starts to fall into place. You talked about how it does get a lot easier.

[Co-host/Producer]

It became part of my identity.

[Nick Loper]

It was probably like my second kid was born and you have to fill

[Co-host/Producer]

out the birth certificate. This would have been 2018.

[Nick Loper]

And like, you know, parents occupation, it's like, who care? Why is this on the form? But I was like, you know what,

[Co-host/Producer]

I'm going to do it. I'm going to put podcaster.

[Nick Loper]

I don't care what the stigma is, I'm going to put it.

[Co-host/Producer]

And you know, that was kind of the identity flip of like, this is

[Nick Loper]

something that I do.

[Co-host/Producer]

And it was the commitment in the

[Nick Loper]

early years, like I'm going to do

[Co-host/Producer]

this for free because I enjoy doing it because I kind of see where it could go and I'm really happy that I stuck with it, even though, you know, relatively speaking, the audience was really small.

[Jared Bauman]

You know, we just finished talking about how sponsorships can play and be a primary monetization method for a podcast. But there are so many other ways that a podcast can earn for you, especially if you're willing to look at really the flow of people looking at the podcast is the first touch point for your business, but certainly not the last. You've talked about moving them over to an email list. You've talked about affiliate offers, obviously selling your own products. Are there any things we didn't touch on from a monetization standpoint though, that you think a podcast can also add value to someone or a business too?

[Nick Loper]

Yeah, really popular one that's probably worth mentioning would be a listener supported show

[Co-host/Producer]

in terms of a membership community or

[Nick Loper]

in terms of even just like a Patreon type of offering where it's like,

[Co-host/Producer]

you know, for 5, 10, 15 bucks

[Nick Loper]

a month, like you get exclusive content or you get something else. We did an episode with Garrett and

[Co-host/Producer]

Sabrina from the IKnow Dino podcast.

[Nick Loper]

It is a dinosaur news podcast.

[Co-host/Producer]

And I was like, is there really that much dinosaur news coming out, like,

[Nick Loper]

support a weekly show?

[Jared Bauman]

Doesn't feel like that.

[Nick Loper]

We're in the golden age of paleontology.

[Co-host/Producer]

And that's how they were monetizing. They did.

[Nick Loper]

I think they did have some sponsors,

[Co-host/Producer]

but primarily through Patreon.

[Nick Loper]

I came across a guy with a Taylor Swift podcast. He was co hosting, I think it

[Co-host/Producer]

was called Evolution of a Snake.

[Nick Loper]

And they had like an estimated, you know, 70, 80, $90,000 a month in recurring Patreon revenue for their, like, exclusive Taylor Swift takes. It was like, this is, I mean,

[Co-host/Producer]

good on them for like, you know,

[Nick Loper]

piggybacking on the popularity of, you know,

[Co-host/Producer]

one of the most famous people on

[Nick Loper]

the planet, but like being consistent with it, like obviously producing a good show that the fans, like the super fans,

[Co-host/Producer]

like, wanted more of.

[Jared Bauman]

Yeah.

[Co-host/Producer]

And that was a really unique monetization method. But we've seen other hosts kind of monetize in that way where it's becoming like member supported. There was even a guy, Scooter.

[Nick Loper]

He hosts the Sleep with Me podcast where it's like, it's like a sleep a. Like, I'm going to tell you a progressively more and more boring story.

[Co-host/Producer]

And he goes to this podcasting event

[Nick Loper]

and Casper is there, like, how are we not sponsoring your show?

[Co-host/Producer]

He's like, well, it better be a

[Nick Loper]

pre roll because the whole goal is to get people to fall asleep.

[Jared Bauman]

Yeah, exactly.

[Co-host/Producer]

Lots of creative ways to do it

[Nick Loper]

and even some of the more interesting ones, even if, relatively speaking, nobody is tuning in, like selling to an audience of one. Like if you have an agency service

[Co-host/Producer]

or kind of a higher ticket type of offering where you have a very

[Nick Loper]

specific customer avatar, like using the podcast as an excuse to get them on the phone. Right.

[Co-host/Producer]

We've seen people reach out on LinkedIn.

[Nick Loper]

Hey, you're a thought leader in your space. You're the exact type of person that we're trying to interview for this podcast. And it's an excuse to get them

[Co-host/Producer]

on the phone and start a conversation

[Nick Loper]

and be like, well, what is it that you do? Oh, yeah, we do, you know, PR for exactly. You like your type of business.

[Co-host/Producer]

Like, oh, we ought to talk, you know, tell me more about that. So lots of different ways to get it done.

[Jared Bauman]

That's fascinating. Now that's an interesting angle right there. Because you're right. Like, that's an interesting way to meet people. Wow. Okay, man. Nick, thank you for coming on the podcast. Congratulations on your success. I've known about your show for a long time, which tells me that it's that you're definitely consistently doing something great. I know a lot of people who listen to our podcast also listen to yours. Tell people where to go. Not just the podcast, but tell people where to go to follow along with what you're doing.

[Nick Loper]

Yeah, of course. We'd love to have you tune in to the Side Hustle show.

[Co-host/Producer]

It is my labor of love and hopefully that comes across on the mic.

[Nick Loper]

If you want to go deeper on anything that we talked about today.

[Co-host/Producer]

I just put the update on my

[Nick Loper]

podcast Growth playbook course. It's Podplaybook Co and you can use

[Co-host/Producer]

use code NICHE35 for 35% off that one. So again, Jared, appreciate you having me and it's been a blast.

[Jared Bauman]

We'll get those links and details in the show notes, so if you want to click down, you can see those. Nick, great to talk to you as always. Good to reconnect and congratulations. Looking forward to many, many more good episodes coming out in the future. We'll talk again soon.

[Nick Loper]

Cheers.