B (2:23)

Oh, we're starting big. This first one is a fun one. And by fun, I mean terrifying and crazy.

A (2:31)

Okay.

B (2:32)

Okay. So let's go let's get into it. Military leaders say Iran war is so Trump can bring about Armageddon. So wait, wait, wait, wait.

A (2:41)

Okay. I know. I've seen. I've seen some headlines about this. I've read a little bit about it, but not a ton. Are they saying that. Are these military leaders, like pro Trump, or are they saying bad Trump, like Armageddon? It really depends what side you think you're on there. And regardless of which side you're on, it's a horrible thing. Like, it's a devastating, climactic, end of history, blood up to the bridles of horses kind of thing.

B (3:09)

Yeah. Doesn't sound like a fun time. No. I think from reading some of the examples of the complaints that soldiers have made about this trend, it's that the generals are largely positive about Trump and his potential role in an end time scenario. So there have been 110 complaints from troops saying that, hey, our generals are casting this war in sort of biblical apocalyptic terms. Like, here's one. This was shocking.

A (3:40)

Just to be clear, These are complaints that have come into the military Religious Freedom Foundation.

B (3:45)

That's correct.

A (3:46)

Okay, so soldiers are sending in these things saying, hey, our commanding officers are violating the First Amendment by imposing a religious not test, but a religious motivation for this current war. And it's creeping us all out. So they violate.

B (4:04)

They're not cool with it.

A (4:04)

Right.

B (4:05)

Okay, so give us some examples. Yeah, so here's one example. Soldier said this morning our commander opened up the. The combat readiness status briefing by urging us not to be afraid as to what is happening with our combat operations in Iran right now. He said that President Trump has been anointed by Jesus to light the signal fire in Iran to cause Armageddon and mark his return to earth. I mean, that won't get you psyched up in the morning.

A (4:32)

Okay, you know what I find really weird about this? I don't know how.

B (4:36)

How much is there a part you find normal?

A (4:38)

No, but here's the. Here's the weird. Are you familiar with horseshoe theory?

B (4:43)

Oh, is this a male pattern baldness thing?

A (4:45)

No, no.

B (4:46)

That politically left and right go around and mate.

A (4:49)

Yes. It's usually in reference to Democrats and Republicans or left and right political spectrums that when they get extreme enough on both sides, they sort of bend and then come back together like they end up on the same side. It's really. That's kind of the political theory of it. But here's what I'm getting at. There's a bizarre horseshoe theory thing going on here that with the extreme MAGA end of the United States military and Islamic fundamentalists like isis.

B (5:17)

Right.

A (5:18)

Because when you study isis, that crazy death cult that kind of took over a lot of Syria and Iraq, the end of the Obama administration, beginning of the Trump administration, last time, ISIS was a cult, an Islamic cult that believed it was sending up the signal flares for Armageddon, that through blood sugar shedding warfare, they were going to create an Islamic caliphate, a state. And in Islamic eschatology, or end times theology, they also believe that Jesus will return.

B (5:49)

Right.

A (5:50)

They don't believe Jesus is divine, they believe he's a prophet, but they believe Jesus will return, which will usher in the end of history. So ISIS soldiers who were doing all that beheading people and massacring all kinds of folks that the US Military had to go in to try to stop and bring under control, they were saying the same thing, that they were trying to bring Jesus back by starting Armageddon.

B (6:10)

And now we have US Military leadership is very similarly apocalyptic minded. So you got people on both sides of this conflict that both think that this is kind of the final act in some sort of end times drama, which strikes me as a little bit dangerous.

A (6:29)

Okay, now.

B (6:30)

And a little scary.

A (6:31)

110 complaints. Sounds like a lot. But the US military is a very, very large organization.

B (6:36)

Right.

A (6:37)

Is this nut picking?

B (6:39)

Hopefully. You know, hopefully this isn't like a normal widespread thing. I'd have a hard time believing if, like most generals are. Are casting the conflict in these terms. And yet there is some evidence, I think, to suggest when you look at Pete Hegseth. Right. He. He is very famously. We've talked about this on previous episodes connected to Douglas Wilson, who's not exactly like a dispensational end times guy, but has a lot of Christian nationalist ideas. And so when those, when that gets mixed in there, it maybe suggests that at least the generals feel a freedom to use this kind of language because Pete Hegseth doesn't mind mixing it up with Christian nationalists.

A (7:30)

I'm super uncomfortable with integrating Christianity with violence in general. I'm not a pacifist, strictly speaking. We've had other shows about that, but I'm not super comfortable with that at all because I don't think it gels well. But especially when it's something as atrocious as this war, which I would argue is both illegal, immoral and unchristian to try to baptize it and justify it with apocalyptic nonsense about Donald Trump being God's anointed instrument of Armageddon.

B (8:00)

Yeah, and you know, you don't have to go too far back in history to see how incredibly dangerous it is. Whenever we take the, the mantle of divine license, right, to sanction violent actions. Right. When. And then we, we assume that what we're doing is sanctioned by God, we tend to be less careful, less self critical. And. Yeah, and history bears this out. Like, I, I got into a kick a while back where I was reading all about the Crusades, you know, fascinating, brutal time of history. But, you know, the whole thing kicked off. It was Pope Urban II in 1095 at Claremont. He gives this powerful Braveheart like speech to all these guys that were basically ruffians, right. They're just like, a lot of them are criminals. And, and he gives the speech, he's like, hey, listen, you can, you know, you were sons of Satan, now you can be soldiers of God. You can go and be God's instrument on earth to, to. And they thought that that was an apocalyptic end times sort of thing as well. I mean, that's a good speech. If you're there, I bet you get swept up in it. It's like, wow, that's what launched the whole thing. And yet we know how that turned out and all the awful things that resulted for like hundreds of years. Incidentally, the crowd, when they heard a speech, they start chanting back, deus vault. Deus vault. Which means God wills it. And maybe coincidentally, that's the tattoo that Pete Hegseth has on his chest, or bicep. Yeah. And so, and I remember reading the story about his tattoo and I go, I remember that from reading about the Crusades. That was the channel.

A (9:35)

Well, he's got that crusader cross on his chest for sure.

B (9:37)

That's right, the Jerusalem cross. Anyway, and I'm not saying that that's why he has that. I don't know the motivations for that tattoo or the story behind it. And yet when you start to see some of this imagery and language that has been used in history, we don't want to go there again, let's put it that way.

A (9:52)

Here's the part. I mean, there's many parts of this I don't understand, but let me identify a few of them. The same folks who are trying to say that Donald Trump is God's anointed, or the United States is God's anointed country for his purposes in the world, blah, blah, blah, are often the people who will say things like, the US Constitution is inspired by God and the founding of this country was part of God's divine will. And providence for the world, on and on. Okay. You can't believe all those things together because if you believe the Constitution is divinely inspired, which I do not, I highly admire the Constitution. I think it's a brilliant document in many ways, but I don't believe it's divine. But if you believe it's divine or that the founding of this country is divine, which, again, I do not, then you can't agree with a president going to war without following the regulations of the Constitution, which involve getting Congress to vote for war, which means you have to persuade the American people and their representatives of the need for the. You can't just bypass and go, america is God's country. The Constitution is God's document. Donald Trump is God's president, and he can do whatever he wants. You cannot hold that consistently together.

B (11:02)

Those are mutually exclusive propositions. Right.

A (11:05)

And then here's the other dilemma. These are clearly. If they're saying this is the beginning of Armageddon and Donald Trump is God's instrument to light the spark, they clearly don't know their theology, because part of Armageddon, they seem to have this delusion that Armageddon means America's enemies lose and America wins. They don't realize that Armageddon in the biblical sense means the United States is destroyed as well. Like, it ceases to exist because the world is undone, remade, and the kingdoms of this world become the kingdom of our God. Like, it's not a good day for the United States, is my point. So if your loyalty is. If your highest loyalty and allegiance is to the United States, you do not want Armageddon.

B (11:49)

Right, Right.

A (11:50)

That's what's weird. I mean, on so many levels, this is just ignorance and stupidity

B (11:57)

run amok

A (11:58)

with, with nuclear weapons. And that's. That's really scary.

B (12:01)

Yeah. And it's bad theology, too, because terrible. Regardless of your. Your eschatology, you know, whether you're dispensationalist or more covenantal or whatever, the idea that you can, through your own actions and ingenuity, precipitate the second coming of Christ is nowhere. I don't think in, you know, good theologians. It's not suggested in the Bible. And that seems to be some of the animating force behind some of this rhetoric is that, hey, man, we can. We can usher this thing in.

A (12:29)

Yeah.

B (12:30)

And that's very, very dangerous.

A (12:32)

Here's the other thing I don't get. Some of these same voices that say this nonsense are the same people who are saying we can't have President Biden It'll be the end of the world. He'll destroy America. Or a black man as president. Barack Obama, he's a Muslim, blah, blah, all this other nonsense. And they talk about the apocalypse. You remember this when James Dobson wrote that piece before Obama was elected in 2008, it was a letter from the future and talking about how the whole world is basically going to be destroyed if Barack Obama becomes president. Why weren't those potential presidencies framed as God's gonna use Barack Obama to bring about Armageddon and the end of the world. Like that was not seen as a positive thing. It was seen as a terrifying thing. But now when it's Donald Trump, it's like, oh, no, Armageddon, let's welcome it. Armageddon's a wonderful thing

B (13:21)

that you do. I'm old enough to remember George Bush and George W. Bush and the rhetoric on the left about him, that we were right on the verge of theocracy and he was just about to consolidate all power and usher in. So I think every four years, you know, both sides go nuts and assume that whoever gets. If the other person gets elected, it's the end of the world.

A (13:45)

Yeah, but that's my point.

B (13:46)

Celebrate it coming though.

A (13:47)

That's what's weird about it. Yes, I understand how Democrats are gonna say republicans, the end of the world, and Republicans are gonna say democrats, the end of the world. Here are Republicans maga, Republicans saying it's the end of the world and Donald Trump is God's instrument to bring around. And they think that's a good thing,

B (14:00)

it's the end of the world. And I feel fine.

A (14:02)

Yeah, I like what. Yeah, I don't understand how you can use the exact same argument and say, on one hand it's wonderful and it's a good thing and we should welcome it. On the other hand, it's a terrible thing, we need to prevent it.

B (14:14)

Right.

A (14:14)

Like, if it's a. If it's a red glove that pushes the button, that's okay. But if it's a blue glove, it's bad. Yeah, it's weird. Very, very, very weird.

B (14:24)

This whole thing is weird, man. Here's the last thing I'll say though, is that at the same time, I do think that God, even through misguided actions, can providentially work in history. Right, of course. So. And this would probably irritate people on both sides, but I would say that Trump is a unqualified, immoral leader and at the same time, God may be using him to judge the likes of Khomeini and Madero and these evil and oppressive leaders. Now, does that mean he sanctioned to do so, or there's some sort of license to do that? Because I agree with you. I feel like, especially without congressional buy in, this war is illegal. And it doesn't seem we have an exit strategy or end goal. But I don't discount the possibility of God behind the scenes providentially working to bring judgment. And we see that all throughout Scripture, even with the moral leaders that judged Israel, that judged all kinds of nations.

A (15:22)

I obviously agree with you, Drew, but that brings me no comfort whatsoever.

B (15:26)

Right, right. Like, and when you start going, oh, this is what God's doing in this scenario, and so therefore it's okay, then you get into trouble, too.

A (15:37)

I've written chapters and I've given messages about the whole idea of God using all kinds of things to accomplish his purposes. And the error we make is just because God uses something or someone does not mean they are ordained or blessed or in any way affirmed by God. So, I mean, there's that incredible passage towards the end of the Sermon on Mount in Matthew, chapter seven, about the day of judgment. And Jesus says, many will come to me on that day and say, lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and cast out demons and do many mighty works? And he will say, away from me, you evildoers, I never knew you. Well, how are they doing miracles and casting out demons and proclaiming things in the name of Jesus without knowing it? Like, it's entirely possible. God uses all kinds of people. I mean, in the Old Testament, he spoke through an ass. And as I heard someone say recently, now, he does that every Sunday, but it's like he uses all kinds of things. He used Pharaoh to accomplish his purposes.

B (16:35)

He's my instrument right now.

A (16:36)

Exactly. But just because you are used by God doesn't mean you belong to him.

B (16:41)

Yeah, that's right.

A (16:42)

And is Donald Trump and his, I think, completely immoral, ungodly, illegal foreign policy being used by God who comes from. Sure. But that in no way excuses the fact that he's ungodly, immoral, and unconstitutional. That's the problem. So, again, it brings me no comfort. Of course I have faith in God. And the moral arc of the universe is long. It bends towards justice, because I believe it's the hand of Christ that bends it. But that doesn't mean we should be okay in a constitutional republic with the fact that our elected representatives in Congress, particularly the Republican representatives in Congress, are betraying their oath of office and not holding this president accountable for violating the Constitution and pursuing an illegal war that is putting not just America in greater jeopardy through terrorist attacks and other kinds of retaliation, but literally the entire world in jeopardy. There is a reason why no prior president thought a direct war with Iran was a good idea. So that's who I'm most angry at are the Republicans in Congress who put a hand on the Bible and swore to uphold the Constitution of the United States. This president clearly is not doing that. And the check on that is supposed to be Congress, and they are not doing it either. So if this goes south, I mean, it already has. Thousands of people have already died. But if this really turns out to be the debacle that a lot of people think it's going to be, I put the blame on Congress.

B (18:12)

Yeah. Yeah. And I know it'll stop it if gas gets too expensive, so we'll see.

A (18:17)

Well, that's the other thing. I mean, there's already signs we're recording this on, what is it, Tuesday the 10th? Maybe by the time people hear this on Friday, it'll have changed. But there are already signs that Trump is going to pull back and say, mission accomplished, we're done here. But there's no putting the genie back in the bottle. You've unleashed horrible things on the world by doing this. With no great change in the regime to Iran, there's still the Islamic Republic. You've probably triggered every sleeper cell in the world to activate that's going to try to kill Americans and American interests around the world. It was 10 years between the first Gulf War and Osama bin Laden directing 9 11, which was in direct response to the first Gulf War. We don't know what has been unleashed because of this really short sighted and stupid action on the President's part and to bypass Congress and then Congress just

B (19:07)

go, whoa, whoa, sorry.

A (19:09)

You know, that we like. It's just, it's incredibly dumb. And so, yes, all things will be redeemed in the eschatological and cosmic sense. That gives me hope. But in the short term, this is the consequence. You know, you play stupid games, you win stupid prizes, and America elected a very stupid president. And this is what we get. The world in flames. So, yeah. Okay.

B (19:35)

Yeah. All right.

A (19:37)

Give me something better, Drew.

B (19:38)

Yeah, no kidding. This is, I think this is a little more hopeful. This is an article from our friend Caitlin Beatty. Conservative Christians were right about the 1990s and 2000s teen culture.

A (19:49)

Yeah.

B (19:49)

Evangelicals of that era warned that pop culture was over sexualizing teens. Maybe they were onto something.

A (19:57)

Okay. So I was, I. When did I. When did I cease being a teenager? When did I turn 20? I turned 20 in 19.

B (20:04)

10 years from you.

A (20:06)

I turned 20 in 1996. So I was a teenager in the 90s. Not in the 2000s, but in the 90s.

B (20:15)

That was our golden era, man.

A (20:16)

Yeah. But I don't remember. Maybe because I wasn't a girl in the 90s. I'm not a girl now. But did girls get more Messages in the 90s about being over sexualized? I don't recall. Did I just not hear those messages?

B (20:30)

Yeah, well, I mean, Caitlin points some of these examples out, you know, from Britney Spears wearing the school girl uniform in her videos to Abercrombie and Fitch, to Victoria's Secrets undergarment line for teens, which was launched by a friend of Jeffrey Epstein, interestingly.

A (20:49)

Seriously.

B (20:50)

And so there was. And like, I don't know if you've had this experience, but you'll watch a movie from the 90s, and the sort of behavior that's from men that's dismissed as playful or just boys being boys today would be like, not cool at all. And it wasn't cool.

A (21:07)

Like, I mean, that was huge in the 80s.

B (21:09)

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Especially watch those 80s.

A (21:11)

It's, it's, oh my goodness, really cringy.

B (21:13)

Yeah. I've showed a few 80s movies to my kids and all of a sudden I'm going, oh, wow, I don't remember that. So anyway, and her point though is, and I don't know if she would say it's gotten better necessarily, but her point was, and at that time that her parents in particular, who were evangelicals, were telling her, hey, listen, don't wear short shorts, don't show your midriff. And she was kind of like irritated because that's kind of the stylish thing to do. But now she's kind of going, hey, maybe. And she, as you know, is a prominent critic of purity culture and how it blamed women for men's lust and all the rest of it. But she's saying. But in decrying the sexualization of teens, conservative Christians of this time actually had a point because many people were kind of blind to that reality.

A (22:01)

What? I didn't read the piece. I did. I just skimmed it really quickly because whatever. Does she give a. A corrective? I mean, she's obviously saying that they got something right in the 90s by saying, yes, there was an over sexualization of teenagers that was gross and problematic. But what does she say? Anything about what the response ought to have been back then. Because the purity culture response she's been highly critical of in some regards. So what would have been the right way to address it?

B (22:31)

I don't know if she gives that specifically. She does spend some time kind of, you know, rehashing the case against purity culture. Namely that it, it, it did blame girls for boys lust and it never even talked about consent, which is true. I mean, I grew up in that area in the subculture of the evangelical world. I don't remember discussion about consent, you know, and so there was, there was a lot that it a left out or contorted about a Christian, a full, robust Christian sexuality. But she's saying, at least in this one regard, and she's talking about her parents. Hey, they were onto something. And given. Is there any edit where it's due?

A (23:15)

Is there any evidence that this trend has changed? Is there less sexualization of teenagers than there used to be?

B (23:23)

I would say that, man, I don't know. I'd say sometimes it's less overt. Like, I don't know. How old was Britney Spears when she's putting out those videos? I think she was like 15 or 16. And when I saw those images she has in her article, you're like, oh, I remember that. I remember that video.

A (23:41)

Yeah, I'm skimming it now.

B (23:42)

And I don't know if I think we've made some progress in that area in the era, in the wake of Me Too now in the wake of the Epstein thing, where we're a little more careful hopefully about portraying especially teen girls in ways that are overtly sexual. Of course, I'm sure there are all kinds of counter examples that you could provide and even when it's not done as much. Because she was talking mainly about mainstream pop culture portrayals.

A (24:13)

Well, and that's the part that I don't deny it. Yes, that's grotesque. And it was bad then, it's bad now. In the 90s, at least the early 90s, we didn't really have the Internet and the proliferation, the epidemic of online pornography in particular. And I mean, is it Tim Tebow? His whole crusade is trying to end child sex trafficking and pornography online, which is endemic. It's everywhere. So I understand the need to not have pop culture stuff that sexualizes teenagers. But even if you could wave a magic wand and make that go away tomorrow we have a whole nother thing, which is a lot of people or young people are having their views of sex, relationships, the opposite gender. All that is shaped by the garbage they're seeing online. And oh my gosh, yeah, it's the

B (25:06)

90s portrayal of Tame, right?

A (25:08)

Right. So I'm just saying, I'm not trying to excuse the 90s by any, but I don't see any evidence that things

B (25:13)

are better just gone underground, maybe slightly.

A (25:17)

I mean, it's a couple clicks away rather than maybe being on mtv, but it's still there and more horrific than ever. So don't worry, this is not the end of the episode. There's actually plenty more. But to listen to the rest, you need to be a Holy Post plus subscriber. So head over to holypost.com skypod and sign up for just $5 a month. Not only will you get uninterrupted episodes of the Sky Pod, which means you'll never have to hear this dumb announcement again, but you'll also get access to everything else at Holy Post plus, including episodes of Getting Schooled by Caitlin Chess, bonus interviews, live streams, the Holy Post Book Club, exclusive merchandise, and a whole bunch more. And you'll get the warm fuzzy feeling of knowing that you're supporting our work of creating smart, pro neighbor Christian content. So head over to holypost.com skypod and subscribe today.