A (1:52)

Yes. You know, of course, being Canadian, I prefer the cfl. That's real football. But, yeah. And no, I'm actually not a huge football fan, but I went to our neighbor's house. They invited us over, and we brought little cupcakes that had the frosting in the color of the Seahawks. And so we were very glad when the Seahawks won. My son said I should have bet $10,000 on the game, which is a little worrisome that he's got that gambling instinct already.

B (2:17)

We're Going to talk about that a little later, but. Yeah, I mean, I hadn't thought. If you're a young kid growing up today watching sports, like half the commercials are for sports betting and they all just think this is a normal thing to do. Yep, that's a problem. But you, you are in the Pacific Northwest, so you kind of. That's Seahawks country, even though you're not in Seattle.

A (2:35)

It is. Exactly. Because Portland doesn't have a team. Right. So everyone in Portland, you got to kind of root for the Seahawks.

B (2:42)

Right.

A (2:42)

Although if. If the Bears would have been in there, man, I would have been torn.

B (2:46)

If the Bears had been there, it would have actually been an exciting game.

A (2:49)

Yes, that's true.

B (2:51)

It was a pretty boring game, but.

A (2:53)

Okay.

B (2:53)

I didn't know if you did anything, being Canadian and all. What is the Canadian equivalent to the Super Bowl?

A (2:58)

What do they call it up there? I forget. Like, there is the cfl. The CFL is basically where, you know, college football players in the States go if they can't make the NFL.

B (3:08)

You're admitting that?

A (3:09)

Oh, yeah, Yeah.

B (3:11)

I watched that documentary recently about John Candy, the comedian, and he owned a CFL team.

A (3:16)

Oh, no way.

B (3:17)

Yeah, I'm pretty sure he did, if I recall. Yeah, it was a football team. So for those of us who aren't north of the border, we don't get that world. Is it also. Is it kind of like Canadian Thanksgiving or is your Super Bowl a couple weeks earlier than ours?

A (3:30)

Yeah, well, actually, I don't know when it is. I'm trying to remember what it's called is the Gray Cup. That might be it, but I have admiration for those dudes, though. They're like making 60, 70 grand a year. They're grinding it out.

B (3:40)

Yeah, but they get government sponsored health insurance so they can manage their injuries when they're older. Okay, let's jump into it. What have you brought from around the interwebs? Today.

A (3:57)

We're starting on the dark side. There's a good article, really illuminating essay@comment.org called the Dark side of Servant Leadership.

B (4:08)

I really like this one because.

A (4:10)

Did you? Yeah, I thought you might.

B (4:12)

My underwear gets in a bunch. Every time I read anything about servant leadership and John 13 and washing feet, I just. I hate how misunderstood and misinterpreted that text is.

A (4:21)

I didn't know where you were going starting off with your underwear. But yes, I agree. Little history for people who don't know. The term servant leadership was coined by a dude named Robert k. Greenleaf in 1970. He wrote an essay on it and it quickly entered kind of the mainstream of culture, including the ministry world. And it has inspired men, dozens, probably hundreds, actually maybe thousands of books and conferences.

B (4:47)

So many, so many ministry conference talks and leadership this and that. It's nauseating. I mean, do you remember when we both worked at Christianity Today? You walk into the foyer of that building and there was a little Jesus washing the disciples feet sculpture. And I've seen that same thing in a bunch of other evangelical foyers, right. Of different organizations or denominations or whatever, some varying sizes. And it's all, you know, I think it's even like, engraved with something around servant leadership or something like that. So, like, this is. It's fascinating to me that here's an idea that's only about 50 years old, right, that found some foothold in one text of scripture from. From John 13, and now it's like, just understood to be gospel truth, right?

A (5:35)

Well, and originally it wasn't even a Christian. I don't know if this guy was a Christian or not. But it was just like a leadership article basically, that got adopted for reasons that are understandable by Christians, right? To kind of be the. At least the purported guiding philosophy of ministry. And I'm like you, though, as soon as I hear it, because I've heard, first of all, I've just heard it so much, it's ubiquitous. But my eye starts to kind of twitch because I'm like, okay, it can so easily just be, you know, this sort of tokenism, this nod to, oh, we're all servants here, and mask leadership styles that are actually authoritarian, which is the. The thesis of the essay.

B (6:15)

Right. Which is why it's called the Dark side of Servant Leadership. I don't know if you want to give much more summary than that, because it's a pretty long article.

A (6:22)

It is. Yeah, it is. So. Well, yeah, what I'll say is I'll actually quote it here. You know, he talks about how the idea of servant leadership is a good thing, right? This. This idea that healthiest leaders begin not with the instinct to control, but a desire to serve. That's. That's good. But he talks about leadership. Servant leadership became a brand, something leaders perform rather than embody. Many organizations being seen as a servant leader now offer offers, not humility, but credibility, a moral certification that shields a leader from critique. And it's just so interesting the way he describes how this plays out in organizations where they might say, you know, the leaders are like, oh, hey, we're just like you. We're just. We're servants. We want Input from everyone. And they give kind of lip service to these ideals. And then the truth is they've already made the decision. They're still top down in their, their structure. And it's all kind of a ruse just to appear credible and moral.

B (7:15)

Right. It's not a virtue, it's an image. And okay, here's a couple sentences that grab me that I think capture his point. He says, when humility becomes an image to cultivate rather than a lived ethic, authoritarianism can settle in unnoticed. When service is preached from the top down, it is often those at the bottom who are expected to carry its weight. This is the illusion of virtue. A leader celebrated for being a servant first may in practice reinforce the very hierarchies the model was meant to subvert.

A (7:45)

Wow.

B (7:46)

And I mean, I've written about this one of my books, actually one that you edited for me with Moody. What if Jesus was serious about the church? I have a short chapter around kind of the myth of servant leadership in the whole John 13 thing. And here's my beef with the way that text is often taught. For those of you who don't know, John 13 is the scene where Jesus washes the disciples feet. And that's usually what people go to as the model of servant leadership. The problem with that is when you or I or anyone in our culture today, if we have a position of authority, say we're the pastor of a church or the leader of an organization or a ministry or whatever, we assume that servant leadership is people with a lot of authority doing menial, humble tasks. Right? So you know, Pastor Drew is, you know, taking the garbage out from the nursery, all those dirty diapers. Isn't he a servant leader?

A (8:38)

Only when people are watching.

B (8:39)

Right.

A (8:40)

Look at it.

B (8:40)

Or you know, pastors, guys out there shoveling the snow on Sunday to make sure the sidewalks are clear. And you know, isn't he a servant leader? The problem with all that is when you and I engage in that kind of activity, generally we will be celebrated for that.

A (8:55)

Right?

B (8:56)

Right. It's virtuous in 21st century American culture for people with power to do menial things and be humble. When Jesus took off his clothes, put a towel around his waist and washed the disciples feet, I promise you, nobody was impressed. Nobody was celebrating this. In fact, it was scandalous and humiliating.

A (9:17)

Right? It was the opposite.

B (9:19)

It was the opposite. Exactly. And so what we misunderstand is we think, we think that servant leadership, this whole ridiculous interpretation of John 13, we think that it's about leadership and service or it's a model for moral authority that if you do humble things and serve the people around you, they will follow you and you can lead more effectively. When in truth, in the context of first century Judea, when this was happening, this is about honor and identity. And if you remember that exchange that Jesus has with Peter, he gets to Peter's feet and Peter's like, there ain't no way you're washing my feet. And Jesus says, if you don't let me wash your feet, you can have no place with me. Like this whole exchange is going back and forth because what's happening there is Peter is looking at his rabbi, his leader, his master, his teacher, taking this humiliating role of washing feet. And in that culture, you were not greater than your rabbi. So by washing the disciples feet, Jesus wasn't just humiliating himself, he was humiliating his followers. He was saying, if I am this low, you're even lower. And that's what Peter's reacting to. He's like, there's no way my rabbi is going to wash my feet because that means I'm even lower than that. It was his pride and his arrogance that Jesus was deconstructing in this act. And that's quite intentional. So how does that translate in our context? This is not about leaders doing menial tasks or serving their followers. This is about a leader being willing to take up their cross and deny themselves. It's a leader who says, I don't need more attention, I don't need a bigger platform. I don't need to be celebrated, I don't need praise. I'm okay being humiliated and not valued and not welcomed and not celebrated and not esteemed. That's what it's about. And so when it gets put in all these, I don't know how many times I've heard it in ministry conferences and settings, like, if you serve the people around you, they will admire you and you will lead them more effectively. And da da da, da da. It's like, no, it's not what the story's about. And this is not a leadership strategy. It's about dying to yourself, which all of us are called to do, not just the leaders.

A (11:33)

Yeah.

B (11:34)

Anyway, it just annoys me to know

A (11:35)

it's described as a tool that will just make you more effective. It will maximize your impact or increase the bottom line, which is how it

B (11:43)

becomes performative, how it becomes image. Right. I have to do these things so people will like me and respect me and think I'm humble, when in fact I'm an authoritarian. A hole. Right. So that's the problem with this is it's taken such a warped idea. It's a misunderstanding of John 13 that gets misapplied in a managerial marketplace based ministry context and then covers up all kinds of abuse and authoritarianism.

A (12:12)

Yeah, and you're right about, I've seen that so often where like the leader of an organization will do a menial task, but it's like, you know, he'll throw on some overalls and go down to the warehouse and lift some boxes or something. But it is performative. Right, because he's not doing it or she's not doing it when no one's watching. Usually it's kind of a signal to kind of go. I mean, at the very. Maybe they're trying to say, hey, I'm trying to model what humility looks like for everyone. But often it's just pure virtue signaling right where you're going, hey, look at how humble and servant hearted I am to do this thing that's way below my station.

B (12:48)

And here's the thing, even if it's not done for the cameras per se, not done to be seen, who's against humility? Like, that's a great, that's a great virtue for someone to possess. The problem is that's not what the story's about. The story is about the pride and arrogance of the disciples. And Jesus, as it says at the beginning of the chapter, knowing where he had come from and where he was going, he was returning to the Father. He'd come from the Father, was returning to the Father, removed his clothes, put a towel around his waist, washed his feet, basically saying, Jesus is not insecure. He doesn't need the affirmation of the people. He doesn't even need the affirmation of his own disciples. He is so secure in who he is and he's deliberately humiliating their arrogance and pride as their leader, teacher, master, rabbi, by taking this lowly station, he is making them even lower than himself. That's what's going on there. It's a totally different thing. And so I'm not against a leader who is truly humble and does acts of service for people. Great. And if someone happens to notice, it's about the leader who, like Jesus, is not living for the applause of others, who doesn't need more influence, power, recognition. That's what it's about. Which is frankly really, really hard to find, especially in the evangelical subculture these days. So, I mean, they're out there. I've met some really wonderful, humble godly leaders. But the way this passage is taught, and this concept has been just proliferated within Christian circles, is not what John 13 is about.

A (14:24)

Well, yeah, and you're right. And the context is so important there. Because today, whether you're Christian or not, deigning to do something that is mundane or humble is seen as Is laudable. You get kudos for that in the first century, but that's partly because our imaginations have been so conditioned by Christianity that has elevated humanity and helping people that are lower than you. But in the first century, that wasn't the case. In fact, like, there's all this Greek teaching that's like, if a. If a person of a higher class stoops to help someone who's low, it's not only unnecessary, it's actually immoral. Right, right. Because you shouldn't step out of your class to help someone who's. Who's lower than you.

B (15:03)

Right.

A (15:03)

And so, yeah, you're right. This was a humiliating sort of. It was scandalous and scandalous. Yeah, it's like. Yeah. Nowadays, though, it's like me, when I feed the kids or. Or do something for them, and then I go on social media and brag about it and. And tell I did, like, I did something amazing when it's really just my job. Anyway.

B (15:21)

Yeah. I don't know what the parallel would be today. Like I said, if you and I, because of our culture and our roles, if we do some small menial task, we will probably be celebrated for it.

A (15:31)

Right, Right.

B (15:32)

So what would be the equivalent of something that would be truly scandalous? I mean, not in a sinful way, obviously, but scandalous for someone in my position or yours to do. I mean, one that comes. Did you see that video? I think it was Francis Chan and Mark Driscoll and a few. I forget. This is years and years and years ago, and Francis Chan was talking about how he left his church to go to Hong Kong or wherever he went for a couple years, and they were all, like, stunned that he would give up the huge platform of his megachurch in Simi Valley. And they just couldn't comprehend that. Like, why on earth would you ever do that?

A (16:11)

Cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs.

B (16:12)

Yeah. Something like, maybe that gets close where somebody deliberately chooses a position of less or another. One that comes to mind is Henri Nouwen. Back in the 90s, a long time ago, he was teaching at Harvard, and he gave up that position to work with severely mentally disabled adults at the l' Arche home in Toronto, wherever that is, somewhere in Canada. That's an example of Somebody giving up the position of notoriety and fame and applause and all those things to do something out of the limelight in our culture that doesn't make a ton of sense. So I don't know what the equivalent would be, but those come to mind. But it's not doing menial tasks that you're gonna get applauded for or people are gonna think admirably. Nobody was thinking admirably of Jesus when he was washing their feet.

A (17:04)

Yeah, no, that's good. And I mean, my thing too is just be consistent in your language and who you are. Like you said, there are a lot of great. I've had the honor of working with great servant leaders that I would describe that way. And so I don't actually mind them using that language if they're embodying it. And that means actually getting buy in from people that are lower on the org chart than them, honoring everyone's voice, doing that kind of thing. But often they use that language and then the truth is their MO is just a totally normal CEO or leader. So if you, if you embody those values in the way that you actually lead. And that was some of the examples the article gave. It's like, often like they'll have these like, you know, listening sessions with everyone in the organization. But then after everyone's like, oh, the decision's already been made.

B (17:52)

Right?

A (17:52)

Just doing this to make us feel good. Right? And you kind of know when you're being played like that so you can have this veneer of like, oh, I listen to everyone and I'm just one of you and we're all on the same level. You know, I have totally been in the bay.

B (18:05)

I have totally been to the setting.

A (18:07)

Yes, that's fine. You know what? It would be refreshing to me is some guy who just say, listen, man, I'm not really a servant leader. I'm kind of a top down dude. I'm going to run this. Like, you know, I'll try to be nice to everyone, but I'm calling the shots. Okay, fine. At least you're honest.

B (18:20)

I agree. But again, that John 13 is not about Jesus, like empowering his followers to be participants in his decision making. That's not what it is. We've just completely misappropriated that text and that story. And anyway, I could rant about this all day, but it's a good article. We'll post the link. People should read it. I'm curious how often this comes up in secular settings, because even this has spilled over into lots of different managerial and leadership.

A (18:54)

Oh, yeah, books. I thought it was just a Christian thing, but it's no, it's like business world and everything.

B (18:59)

So it's funny how things like go back and forth between the two worlds influencing each other.

A (19:05)

Cross.

B (19:06)

So I wrote many years ago about how one of the founders of Coca Cola came from this Methodist background, and he ended up using evangelistic preaching techniques to market Coca Cola. And now Christian organizations and ministries look at organizations like Coca Cola to figure out how do we sell Jesus? And it just kind of goes round and round. And so you take this servant leadership idea that came from some misreading of John 13, and people employ it in the marketplace for effective management, and then that content ends up coming back into the church through the back door about, here's how to lead your nonprofit ministry organization. And it just gets all weird and warped and messed up. But it won't be the last time.

A (19:45)

Is that why he took the cocaine out of the coke? His church background?

B (19:49)

It might be. I don't.

A (19:51)

We'll have to find out.

B (19:52)

We'll have to find out. Okay, Drew, what's next?

A (19:54)

Let's move on. This is a really serious one. Foreign. Market has the odds of Jesus returning before 2027 at 4%. Okay, so Poly Market. I actually didn't know what this was. It's a cryptocurrency based prediction market. It's like a big gambling site, basically.

B (20:19)

Yes. And it has Amazon everything.

A (20:21)

Everything. You can bet on what the temperature is going to be tomorrow. You can bet on how many people Trump will deport this year when the Ukraine war will end. And as it turns out, the odds of Jesus returning.

B (20:33)

I'm on the website right now. Here's what's scary. Yeah, it's at 4%.

A (20:38)

It was at 5, actually.

B (20:39)

Well, now it's at 4. That Jesus Christ will return before 2027. And that's double what it was not that long ago. It was at 2%.

A (20:48)

Yeah. Just because the world's heating up. A lot of craziness going on. But here's my question. A lot of people ask this online. Okay? So if Jesus does return and history culminates, how do you collect on your bet if you were one of the people betting that he would.

B (21:03)

That's exactly. That's the problem. I mean, obviously the people on polymarket

A (21:07)

who created this seems like a glitch

B (21:08)

don't know their eschatology very well. Because if Jesus comes back, I don't think they're getting a payout.

A (21:14)

He's probably gonna put an End to gambling. So they might be out of business.

B (21:18)

There's some other weird stuff on here. I mean, lots of weird stuff. And what's weird is to see what they think has a higher likelihood of happening than Jesus returning. I mean, you can bet on who's gonna get engaged on Love is blind season 10. How many SpaceX launches are there gonna be this year? What will be the number two US Netflix movie this week? I mean, all kinds of we hears who's going to attend the State of a. The State of the Union address. What. Who will get the Oscar for best song this year.

A (21:54)

But did you see the guy who bet that someone was going to run out on the field in a football game and then he did it?

B (22:02)

Oh, yeah, yeah, I heard that.

A (22:03)

Yeah, he got fined, I don't know, like a thousand bucks, but he made five grand. I forget the exact numbers, but pretty clever. And it seems like that's a flaw in the system if you can make the thing that you're betting on happen.

B (22:15)

Okay, this, this gets back, though, to your. Your son telling you you should have bet on the Seahawks.

A (22:20)

Yeah.

B (22:20)

For the Super Bowl. Like, is online betting just completely out of control?

A (22:25)

Oh, out of control. You know, it was nothing like this even like five or ten years ago. Now it's every ad and you can bet on everything. It used to be, like, things that happened in CD basements and I mean, you'd have to go to like a bookie or something. I don't even know, like, when we were young. But now it's just everywhere. Like, what is it? DraftKings and every second commercial, and it's a scourge, man. I am a big. And I don't know whether you, like, outlaw it. I don't know what the policy, the proper policy decisions are, but it is such a bad thing. You look at the percentage that people that are in poverty. I forget what the poverty line is. Like below 34 grand or something like that, the percentage of their income that they spend on lottery tickets is absurdly high. Like, if they would have been putting that into like a mutual fund or something, a 401k, they'd actually climb out of things. I'm not blaming them. When you're poor, you're desperate. Right. And so it appeals to people in those situations. And then the lottery's like, hey, we fund these beautiful national parks. And every time I drive by, when I say, thanks, poor people, for giving us these beautiful national parks that you don't even go to because you can't afford to Travel there.

B (23:37)

It is a tax on the poor, for sure.

A (23:39)

Thank you. It's a tax on the poor. And now the tax is just, like, getting bigger, and it's everywhere. And I think it actually harms young men, like, disproportionately, because young dudes, they have this kind of, you know, desire to get out in the world and take risks. And that can be a healthy thing if it's channeled into proper pursuits. And yet this isn't one of them. And like, the house wins, you're. You're. You bet enough, you're going to lose, right? You think, you might think you're clever, you know how the Bulls are going to do this year, whatever. But in the end, if you bet enough, you are going to lose, and it's going to be a waste of time and money.

B (24:11)

There's a couple things about this that are especially perverse. One, and part of the ubiquity of these commercials now during professional games is that my understanding is most of the major league organizations, the NFL, the NBA, mlb, they all get a cut.

A (24:30)

Oh, absolutely.

B (24:31)

Of the profits of these gambling companies. So that's why they're advertised so much. And the other piece of this, which is truly insidious and there's a lot of commonality with online pornography is obviously, pornography is always. It's always existed, since there are cave paintings, basically, and gambling has always existed. It's always been there. The difference is, in generations past, to engage in really pornographic material or to engage in gambling, there were. There was. There was resistance. Like, there were barriers that prevented you from being able to do that easily. You had to go to some seedy establishment, you know, a bar, strip joint or whatever it might be, or you had to go someplace, like you said, with a bookie to make a bet someplace, or maybe go to Vegas or a casino somewhere. But there were limitations. Now with our phones and digital technology, there's virtually zero resistance. It's instantaneous. You can be sitting there during a game and be betting on things as they're occurring. And with that zero resistance, you get dopamine hits all the time, and that causes addiction. Same thing again with online pornography. With no resistance. It's easy for especially younger people with brains that are still forming to become literally addicted to the dopamine hits they're getting from this. And then you have the real world costs involved. So, I mean, you can see the statistics on young men especially, who are not engaging in actual relationships with women because there's risk involved and fear of rejection and all these so they're getting whatever sexual desire they have satiated artificially online. And then there's the financial costs on gambling. Like rather than investing in the mutual fund or working hard, you're blowing your money in this entertaining dopamine hit on your phone and jeopardizing your financial stability in the future for immediate gratification in the present. All of that is bad for society. It's bad for families. It's bad for communities. It's bad for individuals, their souls, their brains, all of it. And we have no way of like talking about this as a society. Ezra Klein and others on their shows have talked about like, we all know this is bad, but we don't seem to have any system by which we can say as a culture we want to put more limits on access to these things. Or I don't know, it's just it seems very self defeating at this point.

A (27:01)

And it's tough because we're all about freedom, right? And like I said, I don't know

B (27:05)

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