Loading summary
Transcript89 lines
- [00:00]
A
That's my problem, Sky.
- [00:01]
B
Like, you just want to speed and smoke pot.
- [00:03]
A
That's exactly it.
- [00:04]
B
Yeah, I'll.
- [00:05]
A
I'll. You got me. Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the Skypod. I'm Sky Jutani. This episode is being brought to you, of course, by Holy Post Media and. And by Gray Matter Technologies. See if anyone gets that reference. I'm here with Drew. Dick. How are you, Drew?
- [00:34]
B
I'm doing good, Sky.
- [00:35]
A
All right.
- [00:36]
B
Almost summer here.
- [00:37]
A
Almost summer? It's the middle of June, man.
- [00:39]
B
I know, but my kids are still in school.
- [00:42]
A
Seriously.
- [00:43]
B
So they. Today is their last day, and it's my last day of freedom because I work from home and I'm going to have kids jumping all around me. Okay, so I'm in bivalent.
- [00:51]
A
You live in Portland, Oregon?
- [00:54]
B
Well, just north of Portland. Yes. Vancouver, Washington, technically, but it's a suburb of Portland.
- [00:59]
A
But, like, why. Why does school go so late?
- [01:01]
B
I know. I didn't even know. This is an unusual thing. Like, kids have been out of school for a month, and my kids are still slaving away, but they will go back later, I think.
- [01:10]
A
All right.
- [01:11]
B
So, yeah, I'll get a stomach. Don't worry.
- [01:13]
A
You guys in the Northwest just want to educate your children more.
- [01:17]
B
We are a little different out here.
- [01:19]
A
That's an understatement.
- [01:20]
B
Yeah.
- [01:21]
A
Okay, well, being. Speaking of a little different, you are here for a Drew's News episode, which you've scoured the Internet to find interesting stories for us to talk about. For those of you who enjoy these Drew's News episodes, Drew also composes a newsletter every week for free, an email newsletter called the Drew's Newsletter, where you do something similar. You kind of scour the Internet, find interesting stories, give your little commentary, offer links to those things. It's a great roundup of just stuff. A potpourri, a cornucopia, a smorgasbord, a potluck of offerings from around the Internet, all curated.
- [01:56]
B
Potluck? Yeah. Yes. That's more Christian.
- [01:58]
A
All curated by Drudick. So today you're bringing us. What. What are we going to start with?
- [02:06]
B
All right, well, let's start with something a little weird. Christianity Today recently ran an article entitled, can Christians Smoke Weed? And my response is, of course they can. We have lips, right?
- [02:20]
A
Yeah, of course.
- [02:20]
B
I think the question is, should Christians smoke weed?
- [02:23]
A
Right.
- [02:24]
B
I'm quibbling with the title here. Our friend Dan Darling, you know, Dan wrote this piece and. Well, I guess I'll just spoil it for everyone. This is his conclusion. Okay. He says there are several scriptural principles in our moral decision making about using a drug like this. Although he concedes that the Bible actually of course, doesn't say anything directly about marijuana or weed, but he believes that these principles lead to the conclusion that cannabis has no place, and I'm quoting, in the life of a Christian. My response though, I mean, it could give you a high view of scripture.
- [03:00]
A
Hahaha. Nice.
- [03:01]
B
I don't want to be too blunt here.
- [03:03]
A
Oh gosh, we're going to get all the dad jokes now and all the.
- [03:05]
B
Let's, let's tackle this in a joint way. Wow. But I think we have a higher calling as Christians. Okay, sorry, I got him out of my system.
- [03:13]
A
How much.
- [03:13]
B
What do you think, Scott?
- [03:14]
A
How much did AI help you with those jokes is my question.
- [03:16]
B
I don't need AI for dad jokes, man. Those just flow out of me naturally.
- [03:20]
A
That's true, actually. All right, where to begin? All right, some, some disclaimers. Number one, I've never been a participant or partaker of what weed or whatever the corollary products are, the gummies, the edibles, all that, kind of like, that's not my thing. I've never done that stuff, number one. Number two, as I have studied this subject over the last year or two, the legalization, the broad legalization of marijuana and marijuana products throughout the country. I don't have a definitive point of view on this, but my, my opinion is increasingly forming around that. I think the legalization of this stuff was probably a bad idea, which I know it puts me in the minority. I think the data that's showing that these products have a disproportionately negative impact, especially on teenagers and young people and young adults in their cognitive development. Hormonally, physiologically, it's not harmless. And even though people make all these cases about, well, it's not as addictive as alcohol or tobacco, blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah, some of that might be true, but it's still very damaging. Fertility rates, especially for men. Like, there's lots of negative effects of these drugs and I think the messaging has unfortunately been, well, it's legal now, it's fine, it's safer than alcohol. Go to town. I think that's been really, really harmful. So there's a lot of. There's mounting evidence that this is not as benign as people think. So I'm not generally in favor of making these products more accessible and more legal for more people. I get the arguments around the medicinal purposes and recreational purposes for adults, blah, blah, blah. All right, fine. I'm just saying that out there, all that. I'm not a user and I'm not a fan of the wide accessibility of this substance. Having said that, I think Dan Darling's wrong here.
- [05:18]
B
Ooh, them's fighting words.
- [05:19]
A
I know. Okay, so I'm not wrong. I mean, I obviously agree that Scripture says we ought not to be intoxicated. Speaking about alcohol, obviously. But I think you can broaden that to any intoxicating substance. What kind of. I don't know. I had trouble with this article on numerous fronts. So at one point in the article, this is a quote, Dan says this. Full disclosure, I'm a teetotaler who has never had a sip of alcohol in my life.
- [05:51]
B
That's a good Baptist right there.
- [05:53]
A
I'm not saying that to brag. He writes, I've made that decision out of what I feel is wisdom. Okay. So here. And like, Dan goes on and on and on about the intoxicating effects of marijuana. Now, I think I had a little bit of difficulty reading this article from somebody who, by their own admission, has never had a drop of alcohol pass their lips. Because what that also says to me is this is somebody who has no actual experience with varying levels of effects of intoxicating substances. Like, there is a massive difference between having a beer or a glass of wine and being hammered. Right. And the fact that his wisdom leads him to the personal decision not to ever consume alcohol.
- [06:47]
B
Great.
- [06:48]
A
I think it's fine. There's multiple reasons why people don't consume alcohol. But he then, rather than taking a similar posture towards marijuana to say, hey, you know what? There's. We need to employ wisdom when it comes to a substance that can alter our mental capacities. Rather than taking a posture of wisdom, he takes a posture of absolutism and declaring it black and white. There is no place for this in the Christian life, period. And it's just like, end of conversation. It just seems incongruent to me where it would make a little bit more sense to acknowledge, number one, there are degrees of being high. There are degrees of intoxication. There are degrees of effect of these substances. Again, I'm not a connoisseur. I don't partake. But there are various strengths of marijuana and CBD products. They don't all intoxicate you the same way. Just as there's a difference between the responsible consumption of a glass of alcohol and binge drinking to get drunk, One I would put in the category of a violation of scripture. The other I wouldn't. I think this article lacks that level of nuance when it comes to CBD or HTC or marijuana substances. And secondly, I just, I'm chafing increasingly and it doesn't just apply to this kind of benign, ridiculous stuff like marijuana and alcohol. But I'm increasingly frustrated with Christians who want to make a legal, absolute rule about everything rather than recognize life is incredibly complicated and we are called in deep communion with God through his spirit and, and with rich knowledge of the scriptures to gain wisdom, wisdom that is often circumstantial, conditional, cultural. It's complicated. And so I think there's a whole stream of the church that wants to basically short circuit the development of wisdom by giving people a set of rules and say, this is right, this is wrong. You don't have to think anymore. We've done the thinking for you. It's absolute end of story. And, and anyone who disagrees is a woke liberal squish. And so he didn't say any of that in this article, but the article feels to me like we're going to take this whole complicated cultural discussion and shut it down by saying, here's the verse, just don't do it. And I think that betrays both the complexity of the whole issue of intoxication and the nuances around this current cultural dynamic with marijuana. And I'm saying that as somebody, again, who doesn't partake and would actually prefer more of these substances to be either illegal or significantly restricted for more people. So I'm by no means, you know, a Cheech and Chong smoking kind of wish, you know, everyone should have access to this all the time. I don't believe that. So I just, I didn't find the tone and argumentation of the article all that helpful in cultivating wisdom.
- [09:50]
B
Interesting. Yeah. And I think I'm shocked when I talk to younger Christians, like in their 20s, at their vastly different attitudes about the subject. They don't see it like, when I was young, and I'm not a participant either, I don't smoke or have never been high, but when I was younger, like the bad kids did this stuff, right? It's like, oh man, he's a pothead. I mean, and you know, most people would drink, but it's like a next level. If you were actually smoking pot, it's almost reversed where, like, we've seen like, alcohol consumption go down with Gen Z. And yet, and I don't want to say all, obviously, but a large number will, will smoke pot. And yeah, I'm not a fan of that. And yet I think That, I mean, I agree with some of what Dan says here, but I see what you're saying, too, about you can't just have a blanket prohibition on things, especially when Scripture doesn't explicitly give a rule. If Scripture gives a rule, you know. Okay, yeah, that's fine. But as he acknowledges, there's no clear direction on this because, of course. Well, it'd be anachronistic to try to read something into it.
- [10:54]
A
The argument Daniel makes in the article is scripture prohibits intoxication. Do not be drunk. Right. That's clear. And the leap he then makes is two things. Number one, he says the only real reason for consuming marijuana is to be intoxicated. Right. And number two, he makes the argument that unlike alcohol, even a tiny amount of marijuana alters your mind and therefore is intoxicating. And I think, frankly, that's a hard argument to swallow from somebody who admittedly has never even had a drop of alcohol. Like, you don't have any knowledge of the difference between the effects of a glass of alcohol and true intoxication. And I think similarly, there are degrees of potency with marijuana. It's not all the same. And I just think.
- [11:42]
B
Although I think the goal is. I don't know if he got into this, but the goal when you smoke marijuana is to get high. Right. If you don't get at least a little bit high, you're.
- [11:52]
A
Yeah. Well, you can argue the goal of drinking alcohol. Alcohol is to feel some effects from the alcohol.
- [11:56]
B
You're right. And even one, if you have an empty stomach.
- [11:59]
A
That's right.
- [12:00]
B
You put down a big glass of wine, you're going to feel that.
- [12:02]
A
You're going to feel it. But no one would say you're intoxicated.
- [12:05]
B
And we know that it floods your brain with dopamine.
- [12:08]
A
That's right. So here's a quote from his article. While there may be secondary purposes in consuming marijuana, let's be honest, people primarily use it to get high. And getting high is a form of intoxication.
- [12:21]
B
Okay.
- [12:22]
A
There's a difference between being. I don't know what you call the effects of one glass of alcohol. Like, you can feel it. Anybody buzzed or. Yeah, if you have a special.
- [12:32]
B
Even if you're not buzzed, even on
- [12:33]
A
an empty stomach, you can feel some effects, but you're not intoxicated, you're not drunk. Right. And there it is. Possible to consume a marijuana product in such a small dose that you will feel some effects, but you're not intoxicated. And so I'm not. I just think he is Trying to make a black and white prohibition where neither scripture nor experience nor the facts validate that. Again, I would prefer no one use it, but I'm unwilling to say if you do, you are violating God's law and it's a sin. Like, I just think that's an over magnification of this issue and it removes Christians from having to figure out wisdom. If I'm talking, talking to a 15 year old. Yeah. I'm going to say you don't do this.
- [13:21]
B
Right, Right. Well, it's illegal if I'm talking to
- [13:23]
A
a 45 year old who's following Jesus and figuring out like, I think it warrants more a greater respectfulness of the autonomy of people to figure some of this stuff out.
- [13:33]
B
Well, and just pastorally, it's not going to work to tell that 45 year old who is, you know, living a good Christian life and he likes to smoke a little weed on the weekends
- [13:41]
A
or who, who takes a gummy at night to sleep instead of having a glass of bourbon.
- [13:46]
B
Yeah, yeah. It's a harder cell, so you're gonna have to dig a little deeper. And here's, this is my thing. I think the better way to approach this, like when you think of intoxicants, what you're really talking about is synthetic transcendence. Right. Like you are, Life's hard, people are in pain. It's, it's tempting to escape, if only for a while, using, whether alcohol or pot or some other substance. I don't think that makes it okay, but I find it interesting. Like in the Bible, one of the clearest verses about this where Paul says, do not be drunk with wine. And you think, what's the deal? Like, does God just hate a party and he doesn't want us to have fun? No. There's a spiritual corollary that follows that right away it says, but be filled with the spirit. So in other words, hey, you don't need that synthetic transcendence. You've got life in the spirit, which is better. And so I think that's kind of a fruitful way to think about these things and to reason about it, to argue along those lines. Like, hey, listen, as a Christian, you got something better. And the Bible even says, like, give wine to those who are perishing. Right. Like, okay, if someone's old and they're sick, you know, numb their pain a little bit. What saddens me is seeing. And this is like, man, our area in Portland, you drive through Portland, you get hit. Like, even on the highway you can smell the. Yeah.
- [14:53]
A
Yeah.
- [14:54]
B
This is why you see these kids lining up around pot shops that are now on every corner.
- [14:58]
A
Exactly.
- [14:59]
B
It's just kind of like the crapification of the whole area. And I see these 20 year olds and I'm like, listen, if you got glaucoma, go smoke a joint. Whatever. Whatever helps.
- [15:07]
A
Right.
- [15:08]
B
If you're an old person that's got pain, use what you need to. I know it has some medicinal benefits, but for young people, like you said, it like saps motivation, has cognitive things. It can even precipitate psychological problems like schizophrenia. Yes. So, yeah. So my advice would be just on practical level to young people, don't waste your life on this stuff. Don't SAP your motivation.
- [15:29]
A
I'll give you one other frightening conversation I had recently with a physician who is doing drug trials for a new medication to help with male infertility. And he was explaining to me kind of what this entails. It's. It was where he was looking for men, younger men of a certain age range. And part of what he was doing in these drug trials is having to measure the size of their testicles. And I'm like, this is a bizarre conversation. But I was like, how many young men have shrinking testicles and infertility issues? And he said to me, it's escalating dramatically because of marijuana use. And I had never even known this. Like, this is a growing problem that young guys who've been smoking marijuana since teenage years go into their 20s, maybe they get married into their late 20s or 30s, they're ready to have children, and they find out they're sterile because of the effects of marijuana. Like, this is stuff the culture's not talking about.
- [16:23]
B
See, I think that'd be more persuasive for men than citing chapter and verse.
- [16:27]
A
I know, but my point is, this is all the reasons why I am not a fan of the accessibility of this. So I don't want anyone to hear me saying that. I want more people to be engaging in use of this drug. I don't at all.
- [16:39]
B
Right.
- [16:39]
A
But to simply make a blanket statement of it has no place whatsoever for any Christian coming from somebody who has no experience themselves with any level of use of even alcohol, to understand some of the nuances. I just found it to be. I thought. I thought it was the wrong message from the wrong messenger.
- [16:59]
B
Dan needs to slam a few beers. Come on the pod. No. And give his rebuttal.
- [17:03]
A
I think it's wonderful that he has this conviction that he's not gonna. He's a t. I honestly I have no problem with what he's chosen for himself. I just don't know if he's the right messenger to. He's trying to take a principled stand on something that isn't principled. That's the problem.
- [17:20]
B
Yeah. We always need to be careful where Scripture is silent or doesn't address something. We need to be very careful to. Yeah. Provide guidance that maybe isn't in the form of commands. Yeah. Because that's. I mean, and I'm not saying Dan is doing this, but like, a lot of people think, well, why not just be safe? Let's just give people rules and commands around complex issues or sensitive issues to keep them safe. But that it's not incidental. That's actually sometimes the path towards Phariseeism. Right. That's what the Pharisees did. They said, we need to protect all these laws that are good from God, so let's add some extra ones, and then we'll be safe.
- [17:54]
A
If you've studied moral development, I forget who the. The famous author is who did this, talks about three stages of moral development, primarily for children. And the first stage is sort of punishment. Like a kid doesn't steal a cookie because they're worried they're going to get put in a corner, get a timeout, get a spanking, whatever your form of punishment is, so they don't do it. Right. The second stage of moral development is law, which is, to use a metaphor that my teacher used for me. In the first stage, you don't speed as a driver because you might get caught and you could get a ticket. Right. It's personal repercussions you're trying to avoid. In the second stage of moral development, you don't speed because the law says you don't speed. You just don't do it. Right. The problem is so many people get stuck in that level two of moral development. What happens if you have, I don't know, a pregnant woman in your backseat or somebody with a medical emergency in your backseat and you go, well, speed limit's 30 miles an hour. I can't. They're bleeding out in the backseat. But, oh, well, no, you speed because you understand that there's a higher call. That's the third level of moral development where it's an internalized wisdom that says, this speed limit was put here for safety and the preservation of human life. I have a human life at risk here. I need to speed in order to save a life. I'm going to violate the law. This is exactly the battle that Jesus had All the time with the Pharisees, between the laws and the spirit of the law. So when you come along and say, nope, you just do not do this thing. You do not smoke marijuana ever. Whatever, okay? You're helping people be safe because you've got them in moral development stage two. The problem is not that, well, wouldn't their life be better if they smoke a water? Of course not. The problem is you actually retard moral development because you never. The way people move from level two to level three is with freedom. Because the way you figure out your own internal guidance and wisdom of navigating the world is by having the freedom to fail. And if you just build all the rules, you'll keep people in moral development stage two and they will never get the point.
- [19:57]
B
Sometimes you need the rules. Say like to your earlier example of a 15 year old, don't smoke pot.
- [20:02]
A
Exactly. That's my point. Little children need to go from level one to level two. And the way they go from level one to level two is with rules and authority. Someone saying to them, here are the boundaries and if you transcend them, you're going to or transgress them, you're going to get in trouble. That's a totally legitimate, normal stage of moral development. Teenagers, young people, yeah, they need that. Absolutely. The problem is too many Christian communities never let people out of stage two to get to level three. This is exactly what the conflict is in the Gospels between Jesus and the hey, you can't heal on the Sabbath. The Sabbath, that's work. There's a greater good here in freeing people from the ailments they are experiencing. And Jesus is pointing to the level three, moral guidance of the law. Man was not created for the law of the Sabbath. The Sabbath was created for man. They got it all backwards. It's like, well, no, the speed limit wasn't created to prevent you from getting someone sick to the hospital. The speed limit was created to protect life. That's the whole dilemma. And so when you just create more and more rules where scripture doesn't or where the Christian tradition doesn't work, you are effectively limiting moral development. That's my problem.
- [21:13]
B
Like you just want to speed and smoke pot.
- [21:15]
A
That's exactly it.
- [21:16]
B
Yeah, you got me. Don't smoke pot, kids. And if you're an adult, you've got to figure this out on your own. All right, next article. I think we solved it. Sorry, Dan, if you're listening to this, you know I can't control sky. Next article. The commodification of Christianity. That's the title of the article written by Freya India. I don't know if I'm saying her name correctly. She's a 26 year old British author. Brilliant author.
- [21:46]
A
I thought this was so good, wasn't it? This is really well done. Yeah, yeah.
- [21:50]
B
And she kind of notes that I think she's like a late in life. Well, she's young, but I think she was an adult convert to Christianity. I could be wrong.
- [21:57]
A
Yes.
- [21:58]
B
But she says she's seen this renewed kind of interest in Christian faith in her generation. But she worries that it's a faith that's been hollowed out by consumeristic and performative practices, mostly coming through online influencers. And she writes she fears it's just become another thing to do on my phone. And she's grateful for she mentions she uses prayer apps and she watches streaming sermons and this Bible reading plan. And yet she's wary, I think rightfully so, of reducing the Christian experience and the Christian life to consuming these digital.
- [22:38]
A
Yeah, can I, can I read a paragraph? Because I thought it's so well said and I think she, she offers nuance here. That is smart. Here's what she writes. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that using a prayer app is as bad as scrolling through TikTok. I just think this is only useful if you have been Christian for a while. If you are raised religious, if you already have a prayer routine and a habit of going to church, then the Hallow app is probably great. It's an extra reminder to pray, an accessory to your spiritual life. But I don't think this helps new Christians, especially not Gen Z Christians. The problem with religious apps is the same problem we have with Instagram communities or with online porn. We encounter the virtual version of everything first before the real thing. And so that becomes our standard. Supplements become substitutes for us. Faith is the live streams and prayer apps and podcasts connect with God in a new way, we're told. But what if this is our first way, the only way we have ever known, through apps and algorithms? That's a really great point. She goes on to say, this is why I worry about the gamification of Christianity. On Hallow, you can track your prayer streak and game streak, see where you rank in the trivia leaderboard. Compare how many minutes prayed with friends and family. There are all these other apps too. Ascending. Learn the Bible like a game. Glorify. Climb the monthly leaderboard. Faith time. Play short interactive mini games that make faith more doable. Even Duolingo for Catholics find out about faith from streaks and XP scores and 5 minute lessons. This is. I mean, she's making a great point. Like if you disincarnate the faith and you make it all digitized and gamify it, that becomes your new norm. It's really uncomfortable to say this, but she makes the connection. It is sort of the parallel to pornography and actual sexual relationships with another human being. Like, it completely warps your expectations of what it's supposed to be. And she goes on to talk about how this can like, well, here's what she says. Don't worry, this is not the end of the episode. There's actually plenty more. But to listen to the rest, you need to be a Holy Post plus subscriber. So head over to holeypost.com skypod and sign up for just $5 a month. Not only will you get uninterrupted episodes of the Skypod, which means you'll never have to hear this dumb announcement again, but you'll also get access to everything else at Holy Post plus, including episodes of Getting Schooled by Caitlin Shess, bonus interviews, live streams, the Holy Post Book Club, exclusive merchandise, and a whole bunch more. And you'll get the warm, fuzzy feeling of knowing that you're supporting our work of creating smart, pro neighbor Christian content. So head over to holypost.com skypod and subscribe.