Loading summary
Transcript78 lines
- [00:00]
Sky Jutani
Bill clinton.
- [00:02]
Bill Clinton
Yep.
- [00:17]
Sky Jutani
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the Skypod brought to you by Holy Post Media and Lumen Industries. I'm Sky Jutani. I'm joined by my colleague today, Caitlin Shess.
- [00:27]
Caitlin Shess
Hi, Sky.
- [00:27]
Sky Jutani
Hi, Caitlin. Okay, before we jump into our topic today, just a little house cleaning, little log rolling, little promotion.
- [00:35]
Caitlin Shess
Log rolling?
- [00:35]
Sky Jutani
You know what? Log rolling?
- [00:36]
Caitlin Shess
I've never heard of that.
- [00:37]
Sky Jutani
Log rolling is when you do like some self promotion.
- [00:40]
Caitlin Shess
Oh, okay.
- [00:41]
Sky Jutani
I don't know why it's called.
- [00:42]
Caitlin Shess
No to call it that now.
- [00:43]
Sky Jutani
Yeah, it's not self promotion in this case. It's just wholly post media promotion.
- [00:47]
Caitlin Shess
Oh, okay. Great, great.
- [00:48]
Sky Jutani
Like, some people need to be aware that most of what we produce on a weekly basis is actually for Holy Post Plus, Right? Including this podcast. If you're new to the sky pod, welcome. We're glad you're here. The way these episodes work is we have no advertisements, we don't do any commercials. So there's no need to hit that 15 second jump ahead. That's very nice, right? It is very nice. But on the flip side, only about half of these episodes are available in front of the paywall for free.
- [01:14]
Caitlin Shess
And we're going to save the juiciest parts for the second half.
- [01:16]
Sky Jutani
We probably actually are in this case. So to get the full sky pot experience, you need to be a Holey Post plus subscriber. Now, I don't want to do this prematurely, but we have a lot of announcements coming up probably next week about new things for Holy Post plus and new platforms that we're on. But some of it's already out there in beta version. You can go look at it. But we are very excited about the changes that are coming and the new features that'll be there and the unification of all that we're doing. But Holey Post plus, you get ad free versions of the Holy Post podcast. You get unique shows that are Only in Holy Post plus, like getting schooled by Caitlin Chess Esau does 66 verses to explain the Bible. We have bonus interviews with guests. We have all kinds of behind the scenes stuff. We have hills to die on. We have advice, ish. Not to mention the Holy Post Book Club bunch of other things.
- [02:09]
Caitlin Shess
So kind of a little looser on there. You know, you might get us to say something we wouldn't say.
- [02:12]
Sky Jutani
Yeah, there's a lot. There's a lot. And there's more coming. Like big, big announcements coming. So if you have not yet signed up for Holy Post plus, it's a great time to go over to holeypost.com, check it out, see if you want to join us. And the best part, honestly, the real reason to do it is not just because of the amazing content, but by signing up, you are supporting the creation of really good, orthodox, pro neighbor Christian content that our culture so desperately needs right now.
- [02:39]
Caitlin Shess
Amen.
- [02:40]
Sky Jutani
And yeah, it's the best way to support everything that we're doing over here. So with that behind us, I have a topic that I've been eager to have you back on to talk about. Caitlin. And thank you for doing this. Okay. A couple months ago, Ezra Klein did an interview with Priya Parker.
- [02:57]
Caitlin Shess
And we love Ezra Klein.
- [02:59]
Sky Jutani
Yeah, you have a.
- [03:00]
Caitlin Shess
No, I don't have. No, I just.
- [03:02]
Sky Jutani
He's right behind Augustine.
- [03:04]
Caitlin Shess
No, no, no, no, no. What I meant was many of us in the office regularly listen to his podcast.
- [03:08]
Bill Clinton
Yeah, yeah.
- [03:09]
Sky Jutani
It depends on the topic. Depends on the guest. But yes, I have grown to like him more. I will say that a couple years ago, he used to irritate me, but he doesn't irritate me as much. Priya Parker, what's the book that she was on there to talk about?
- [03:21]
Caitlin Shess
The Art of Gathering.
- [03:22]
Sky Jutani
The Art of Gathering, which came out
- [03:23]
Caitlin Shess
quite a while ago. This is like her thing is talking about how you create a meaningful gathering. I know so many people who have read that book. Love that book. I love that book. It's. It's. It's kind of a big deal.
- [03:34]
Sky Jutani
I've not read the book anyway. I like Priya Parker. She's like me. She's half Indian, half white.
- [03:40]
Caitlin Shess
Yeah, you should read her book then.
- [03:41]
Sky Jutani
I probably should. I did enjoy her interview, and there's a lot of wonderful stuff there. We'll link to it. People should listen to the whole thing. It's really, really interesting. But there was a part of the interview that struck me when I first heard it. You and I talked about it. Now we're finally getting around to building out a larger conversation around it. We're gonna play it for you folks here. This bit of it. But she taps into our culture's inability. Our culture doesn't know what to do with people who have violated the. Something.
- [04:09]
Caitlin Shess
Yeah.
- [04:10]
Sky Jutani
So take a listen and we'll jump back in in a minute.
- [04:13]
Bill Clinton
The movements like MeToo, the movements like Black Lives Matter, unearthed deep power imbalances. They revealed.
- [04:26]
Caitlin Shess
Right.
- [04:26]
Bill Clinton
The collective treatment. Powerfully revealed the collective treatment of black people in this country. And I think I would say a couple of things. I think first, structurally, there was not enough focus in actually creating laws to change what has been revealed rather than trying to change workplace culture. The second is I remember reading this beautiful, beautiful, surprising piece. It was in buzzfeed back when they had an investigative journalist department, and it was by Katie Baker. It was a female journalist who went around and actually interviewed college students, men who had been accused of sexual assault. And I remember a quote, and it was something like it was. And they had, in some cases, been expelled, been suspended, kind of gone through all of the structural movements. And the quote was, there is no place for me to go. There is no place for me to come back to. I don't understand what you want me to do. Do you want me to commit suicide? And I remember, like, the quote just struck me in my being. And I think part of what in all of these social. Like, there's the social movement and then there's the. What needs to actually shift? What do we actually need to create space for? And then where and how do we repair and allow people to collectively, socially, structurally make amends to come back reformed if they want to? We have no. Again, it goes back. I know I sound like a broken record. We have so many tools for self help. We are so impoverished for our tools of group help. One of the books that I think is a powerful book in this new bookshelf that we're gonna call Group help is Dania Rutenberg's On Repair and Repentance. It's a beautiful book. She's a rabbi, and she basically says American culture is pretty bad. Overemphasizes forgiveness, the Christian notion of forgiveness, and under emphasizes the Jewish notion of repair and repentance. She says we don't have meaningful mechanisms to actually repair with one another. And she says, by the way, everybody causes harm like it shouldn't be this big scary thing. Everybody, all of us, in our friendships, in our relationships, everybody causes harm. Everybody has been harmed and everyone has witnessed harm. And we don't actually have the weight, we don't have the tools to actually even understand how to apologize in our interrelationships. And so I think so much of what has happened structurally is like, we don't have tools to help people who used to have power, whether they're men or whether they're white people, to kind of integrate, to have a new way of being a man in the world, to have a new way to be a white person in the world. In a multiracial, multicultural context, There was
- [07:19]
Sky Jutani
often an assumption that we knew who was oppressed or oppressor, wrong or right, should be listened to or should be discounted. Had had too much power, had had too little. And my point isn't even that those judgments were wrong or always wrong, but I think that's a very political way of thinking about things that, you know, or judicial way in some ways that there's going to be clarity. And then you need to figure out what the reparation is. I guess the thing I am getting at is that we went through this period where the point was to understand each other better. And it is very hard for me to not believe we understand each other much worse. Okay, Caitlin, she references that other book in this clip. I forget who it was from. You know that book, the one.
- [08:12]
Caitlin Shess
Oh, Diana Rutenberg.
- [08:14]
Sky Jutani
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And she talks about how we all cause harm. Everyone causes harm. You go through life, you're going to hurt people, you're going to hurt strangers, you're going to hurt people you love, you're going to hurt your spouse, you're going to hurt your kids. It's just part of being human. But we don't have good models in our culture for how to manage that. And especially when it's a big violation. Like she mentioned somebody who's committed a sexual assault or done something terrible on college campus because they don't know what to do. And the broader topic here for me is just we're in this moment where so many people are focused on justice, social justice, economic justice, all kinds of justice. There's conservative justice, there's progressive justice, Christian justice. Everyone's into justice and wanting to. But we're not seeing a concurrent rise in discussion about forgiveness or mercy or restoration or reconciliation. It's all about justice. I wrote a whole book on justice recently. When you heard the Priya Parker interview, at least that part of it. What did it trigger in you? Or what questions did it arise in you?
- [09:19]
Caitlin Shess
Yeah, I mean, I love how she describes a couple of things. One, she makes the point a few times throughout that interview. It comes up again in that clip that we need more than self help. We need group help. And her point in that is you might be able to find resources out there for your personal concerns, like what you want to change about yourself. There's a bajillion books that you could find. How do we create restoration, reconciliation, healthier ways of being for a whole community. We really struggle. We don't really have good practices or advice for how to do that. And then she gives the example in this clip that I love of, as you mentioned before, an article she read where a student who had been accused of sexual assault on a college campus is responding and says, where do I go? And should I just kill myself? Like, basically saying, listen, I have done something wrong, but what do you want from me? What can I possibly do to make it right? How can I possibly be reintegrated into society? What kind of reconciliation can happen? And I do think this is both a huge cultural problem we're having right now where we don't know what to do with people who even have admitted that they've done something wrong. It's one thing to go, you're unrepentant, you're not interested in reconciliation. It's another thing where someone says, I acknowledge I've done something wrong. I. I even acknowledge I've done something heinously wrong. What do we do next? We don't have good cultural resources for doing that. And it's one of those places. We talk a lot on the show about Americans having this sense that we're a Christian nation, or some people in America wanting to return to America being a Christian nation or make America a Christian nation. And what they have in mind is not usually something like this where. Where I actually think Christian theological resources have a lot to offer a culture that says, we know what it is to call out injustice. We know what it is to say someone has done something wrong and punish them. We don't know what to do after that. We don't. We don't even really. It's not even just. I think that we don't have mechanisms for doing that. I don't think we have an imagination for someone who has done something wrong, even something really wrong, being a full member of the community again. I mean, this student who's expressing this, I don't think is just saying, I don't know how to do my community service hours or like, I don't know how to serve my time in jail even for this. They're saying, like, I can't imagine a world where even though I've done this horrible thing, I still have a full life in a community. And I don't. I think a lot of us struggle to imagine that.
- [11:47]
Sky Jutani
For me, it feels like everyone's talking about social justice these days and has been for decades now. But I'm more. I'm increasingly convinced that what we're talking about is not actually social justice. What we're talking about is social vengeance. And what I mean by that is there's a narrative. It's mostly on the left, more progressive side of things, but it's certainly. There's a version of it on the right.
- [12:08]
Caitlin Shess
There's a version on the right.
- [12:09]
Sky Jutani
The version of the right. But the narrative is something like this. For a very long time, there have been privileged groups of people in our country who have dominated, abused or victimized other groups of people. And we haven't done anything about that. We've excused it, which is true. We've been blind to. Right.
- [12:28]
Caitlin Shess
It's true.
- [12:28]
Sky Jutani
And so the correction that needs to happen is those privileged people who have abused their power, we need to exact vengeance on them. And somehow we think that is going to lift up the people who've been subjugated. And that's not justice. That's not changing society. So it's more flourishing or more holistic or more equitable. That's just vengeance. And then you take it a next step. And Ezra Klein talked about this in the interview. The next step is to then label everybody. Well, are you a victim or are you a villain? And whatever label you get, that just sticks permanently.
- [13:08]
Caitlin Shess
You can't change it.
- [13:09]
Sky Jutani
You can't change it.
- [13:09]
Caitlin Shess
That's what you are.
- [13:10]
Sky Jutani
Which then, if you're a college student who did some heinous, terrible thing and you're clearly a villain in that the question naturally becomes, is there any way for me to ever not be the villain? How do I change that identity when the society has said, nope, everyone is a permanent identity as either victim or villain, and one is perpetually righteous and the other is perpetually evil. That's it. That's not a Christian model of justice. So I just wonder if the social justice thing is a good corrective against the blindness we have had towards a lot of horrible things. But we've not actually pursued social justice. We've pursued social vengeance.
- [13:50]
Caitlin Shess
Right. And this goes back to. I feel like I'm on the same soapbox all the time about how we still have vestiges of Christian doctrine that shape, you know, Western nations broadly, but America in particular. But when we've lost parts of it, those lost parts really would have kind of made a difference. Like in this case, it's like we learned something true that Christian theology taught us. That said, actually, when great evil is done, that needs to be dealt with. That's a Christian idea that, like, even powerful people should be punished for doing wrong, especially powerful people, actually, against the vulnerable, there is like a kind of special in God's sense, vengeance that is reserved for people who misuse their power against the vulnerable.
- [14:34]
Sky Jutani
And to be fair, that predates Christianity. It's clear in Judaism, in the Old Testament.
- [14:37]
Caitlin Shess
Absolutely, absolutely. But that's not universally believed in all of human history. That's something that we get through the revelation of God to God's people. And we still have vestiges of that in America. I mean, so many people have pointed this out. But even just the sense, even once you've kind of left the faith, if you've been like, I'm really horrified by abuses in Christianity, I'm out of here. You still have this innate sense that, like, Christians shouldn't be doing that thing. That's why I'm so mad about it. You still have this sense that certain things are just immovably right and immovably wrong. But the part that we have given up on along the way historically is. And by God's grace, there is a way to be forgiven for that, both kind of sateriologically like I, as a fallen human creature who have sinned against God, can by God's grace be made right with God. But also that there is, by God's grace, mechanisms for being made right with other humans even before everything is made right. Like, there is a possibility for redemption and restoration, even if it's just glimpses here now. But also those glimpses here and now don't make any sense apart from a larger story in which everything will be ultimately made right, everything will be ultimately accounted for. Like, if you don't believe that at the end of all time, God actually finally deals with evil, finally judges, finally destroys evil, then it's your job to do it here and now. And it becomes really hard to say, there are punishments, there are consequences for your actions, but I don't have to exact vengeance on you, because if I don't do it, no one else is going to. But if you really believe in a broader story in which God is the agent that makes all things right, it's possible for you to, as it says in Romans 12, leave vengeance up to
- [16:19]
Sky Jutani
God, which is a quote of the Old Testament.
- [16:21]
Caitlin Shess
Yes, but it's not without any of that theological framework, but with some vestiges remaining, we have some things right, but without the solutions or the other pieces of the puzzle that can make all of it actually work.
- [16:34]
Sky Jutani
Well, yeah, I totally agree. It's. Well, I mean, you do this often in our conversations on the Holy Post where you will talk about an issue and then you mention how if you don't have the right ecclesiastical or eschatology, excuse me, this view of the end times, it doesn't lead to good actions in the present. And I wrote a whole book about this. Our view of the future determines how we live in the present, for sure. And if you don't have an eschatological vision of ultimate justice from God, including his vengeance, which sees all things perfectly, then you're not going to have a balanced understanding of what our calling is here. I think one of the ways we see that manifested again on both sides of the political spectrum is there are things we care deeply about, and there are true evils and injustices that are happening in the world. And the way we then think we need to express the gravity of that thing is by completely and utterly condemning anyone who violates it. And if you don't do that, then you're somehow not taking the issue seriously.
- [17:32]
Caitlin Shess
You're being soft on it, you're being
- [17:33]
Sky Jutani
soft on it so on. Again, to give some examples on the progressive end of things, it doesn't get as much press as it used to. But, like, cancel culture was a sense of, well, if you've said or done something that hurts a minority group or a historically underprivileged or persecuted group, you need to be utterly canceled and extinguished from any social presence on social media or anywhere else in the world. And your banishment must be complete and severe in order to show how terrible this thing has been. On the right, you see this a little bit with what's going on with immigrants right now. There's a sense of, hey, they broke the law by coming into this country undocumented. And we see that as such an important thing. To establish that, we need to utterly dehumanize and treat those who have violated this law in the most horrific, inhumane ways. Separating families, put them in alligator alley, all these different terrible things that they do. And it's okay because that shows how much we care about border security, our cruelty. Exactly. But again, it's not limited to one side. I am justified in being cruel towards this person or this group because the thing that I care about is so righteous and important. And it's like, wow, that only really works if you have no eschatological vision of God's justice. That says, I have to be the one that displays ultimate justice and cruelty here.
- [18:55]
Caitlin Shess
Right.
- [19:00]
Sky Jutani
Okay, let me give you one. The flip side of this, though, is there are times where when the more Christian example of forgiveness, restoration, mercy, whatever framework you want to put on it is expressed. You also see people getting really angry. One of my earliest memories of this was. It was 1992. 92, 93.
- [19:23]
Caitlin Shess
I wasn't born yet.
- [19:24]
Sky Jutani
I know you weren't born. Do you have any knowledge about the Rodney King.
- [19:28]
Caitlin Shess
Oh, yeah, actually.
- [19:29]
Sky Jutani
Okay. So for those who don't know, it was, I think, 92. Rodney King was an African American motorist who was pulled over by the Los Angeles police and was beaten horrendously. And it was caught on videotape. And remember, this is well before cell phones and people had cameras. So somebody nearby had a video camera and captured this, and it was shown to the world, and it was clearly horrible. Like, just I don't know how many, five or six police officers beating this black man in Los Angeles. It went to trial, and all the police officers were acquitted. And in the immediate aftermath of the trial, riots broke out in Los Angeles. Okay. One of the things that happened in the riot that followed. I was in high school at the time, was a white truck driver named Reginald Denny was pulled from his cab by a number of African Americans who were rioting. And he was beaten to a pulpit. And it was caught on camera by, I think, maybe a police helicopter caught it on camera. And he was. His skull was fractured. He was severely injured. I think he had ongoing problems with it. And I remember at some point, the number of the people that beat him were convicted. Reginald Denny came on the Phil Donahue Show. You probably don't remember.
- [20:51]
Caitlin Shess
I don't know what that is.
- [20:51]
Sky Jutani
Okay. It's a talk show. Think of Oprah. Whatever. And I remember he was there, and he was with one of the men who had beat him. Whoa.
- [20:57]
Caitlin Shess
I have not heard this story. Wow.
- [20:59]
Sky Jutani
You can go back and find it. I'm sure it's on YouTube somewhere. And Reginald Denny forgave him for doing it. And people got mad, and the audience erupted in anger. And Reginald said, I'm forgiving him because it's what my faith tells me to do. And he even said something along the lines of, I understand why people were angry at the Rodney King verdict. Wow. And sometimes when I'm angry, I just want to beat someone up. And he said, I happen to be there. I know it wasn't about me personally. And the guy who did it asked for forgiveness and said it was wrong. What happened? It was a moment of, I think, the kingdom of God breaking through in a very tense moment in this country. But what struck me was the audience in the studio was really upset with Reginald Denny for forgiving this guy for what he had done. And obviously, that predates social media and all the dynamics we see today, but it does illustrate that the Christian values that we're talking about here don't get a warm reception.
- [21:59]
Caitlin Shess
And this has happened so Many times since I thought you were gonna tell a story of. And I'm not thinking right now of a particular instance of this, but I feel it's happened quite a few times where a minority community is harmed by someone who has racist intentions, even.
- [22:15]
Sky Jutani
And Dylan Roof, the guy who shot
- [22:17]
Caitlin Shess
up Emanuel, and someone from that community says, we forgive you. And in that case, it's not even just that feels wrong to forgive someone who did something horrific. It often is met with such vitriol because people say, like, it's wrong in that instance because of how wrong the injustice was. Like that instance of racism, that kind of violence, because it's historic, because it comes with all of the baggage of centuries of that same violence happening and being justified and excused by Christian faith. It just. You should not respond with forgiveness to that, because it somehow undermines our sense of how wrong it was because it contributes to pressuring victims to forgive people. Because. And there are dynamics where it can go really poorly, but it just seems like we have this innate sense that that's wrong. Like, you shouldn't do that. That undermines something about the justice being given in that situation. And I can understand it does trigger something in us that I think is met in the eschatological vision of final judgment. Like, it triggers something in us that goes, but it's not made right yet. And it's like, yeah, it hasn't been made right yet. Your sense that someone forgiving someone else for some great injustice doesn't somehow magically fix the situation is right, but it can still be a good thing to do. That points to the ultimate made rightness that will happen in eternity. But when you lose that sense that that's what's coming, it just feels wrong.
- [23:44]
Sky Jutani
I think. Take a step back for a minute. I think where this gets really interesting is, I mean, when you talk about acute cases of somebody being beaten within an inch of their life, like Reginald Denny, or the horrors of sexual assault, whatever, like, those are awful, acute circumstances. But where I'm seeing this play out is not in those cases alone, but we are a very divided society, and one side will say, hey, if you voted for Donald Trump, you are responsible for every horrible thing that's happening in our country. It's irredeemable. And I can't be reconciled to you in a family situation or if you are progressive and you believe in abortion, or you believe whatever the issue is, and that's it, you are part of the reason God is judging America. And there can be no we're dividing and condemning each other over ideological differences and political differences in a way that is so toxic to a pluralistic society. And when you label somebody and say you're what's wrong with the world? And oh, by the way, you're permanently labeled that way, and there's no avenue back into full fellowship using air quotes. I don't know how we survive as a pluralistic society. So this isn't just about genuine crime and victimization and all that, which is a whole, you know, legitimate area of conversation. But we're applying this to everything.
- [25:09]
Caitlin Shess
Yeah, I mean, I had someone pretty recently send me an email about someone I quoted in my first book that came out in 2020, and that person had one time, a couple of years
- [25:19]
Sky Jutani
your book came out. Not the person.
- [25:21]
Caitlin Shess
My book came out in 2020. Okay, I quoted someone in the book and someone just in the last six months or so emailed me and said, oh, this person you quoted in your book.
- [25:30]
Sky Jutani
Don't worry, this is not the end of the episode. There's actually plenty more. But to listen to the rest, you need to be a Holy Post plus subscriber. So head over to holeypost.com skypod and sign up for just $5 a month. Not only will you get uninterrupted episodes of the Skypod, which means you'll never have to hear this dumb announcement again, but you'll also get access to everything else at Holy Post plus, including episodes of Getting Schooled by Caitlin Chess, bonus interviews, live streams, the Holy Post Book Club, exclusive merchandise, and a whole bunch more. And you'll get the warm, fuzzy feeling of knowing that you're supporting our work of creating smart, pro neighbor Christian content. So head over to holypost.com skypod and subscribe today.