The SkyePod - James Bryan Smith

Summary

The SkyePod – Episode: James Ryan Smith
Host: Skye Jethani
Guest: James Ryan Smith
Release Date: February 14, 2025

In this enlightening episode of The SkyePod, host Skye Jethani sits down with James Ryan Smith, a distinguished professor of theology at Friends University and the director of the Apprentice Institute for Christian Formation. Their conversation delves deep into the realms of spiritual formation, the influential work of Dallas Willard, and the evolving landscape of Christian discipleship.

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1. Introduction to James Ryan Smith and His Work

Skye Jethani opens the discussion by highlighting James Ryan Smith's extensive contributions to Christian literature, particularly his "Good and Beautiful" series. Skye mentions Smith's biography of Rich Mullins, underscoring Smith's profound connections within the Christian community.

Notable Quote:
James Ryan Smith shares his gratitude, saying, “Anytime I can spend time with you. He's a blessing” (00:23).

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2. The Apprentice Institute for Christian Formation

Smith elaborates on the Apprentice Institute for Christian Formation, an initiative aimed at fostering holistic spiritual development. The institute offers undergraduate and master's degrees in Christian spiritual formation and soul care, reflecting Smith’s dedication to educating students at all levels.

Key Points:

• Educational Programs: Undergraduate and master's degrees focusing on Christian spiritual formation.
• Annual Conferences: The Apprentice Gathering, an annual event featuring writers and speakers on God, faith, and formation, consistently selling out in recent years.
• Digital Presence: Offers a podcast titled Things Above and solo devotionals based on Colossians 3.

Notable Quote:
Smith humorously remarks on the institute’s acronym, “the Apprentice Institute. It’s the Apprentice Institute for Christian Formation. And we... are going to take over the world, clearly” (01:50).

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3. The Evolution of Spiritual Formation in Christianity

Reflecting on his long-term involvement in spiritual formation, Smith discusses the movement’s growth within the Protestant and evangelical churches. He recounts the early challenges faced when spiritual formation was met with suspicion and resistance, often being misconstrued as mysticism or overly Catholic.

Key Points:

• Founding Roots: Smith was a founding member of Renovare alongside Richard Foster and Dallas Willard.
• Early Resistance: Faced pushback in the late '80s and early '90s, with critics labeling spiritual formation as new age or demonic.
• Growth Over Time: Emphasizes that spiritual formation has grown steadily despite initial skepticism.

Notable Quote:
Smith describes the early opposition, “spiritual formation in the Catholic tradition meant the training of priests... people were like, we can't meditate” (06:13).

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4. The Tipping Point: Acceptance of Spiritual Formation

Smith identifies 2005 as a pivotal year when spiritual formation gained widespread acceptance. This shift was influenced by Dallas Willard’s Divine Conspiracy and increased demand for deeper spiritual life, culminating in a massive Renovare conference in Denver that reflected the movement’s newfound momentum.

Key Points:

• Influential Works: Dallas Willard’s Spirit of the Disciplines (1988) and Divine Conspiracy (1998) played crucial roles in deepening the theological foundation of spiritual formation.
• Massive Conferences: The 2005 Renovare International Conference in Denver drew 2,500 attendees, signaling a significant shift in acceptance.
• Cultural Shift: Over time, the fear surrounding spiritual practices diminished as Christians sought more holistic discipleship.

Notable Quote:
Smith recounts, “We had a renovare international conference in Denver. It was at a big downtown coliseum, 2500 people... I'm hungry for a deeper life with God and that's why I'm here” (10:32).

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5. Introducing Dallas Willard

The conversation turns to Dallas Willard, a central figure in modern Christian thought. Smith shares his personal journey with Willard, from initially struggling to grasp his teachings to eventually understanding and embracing his profound insights.

Key Points:

• First Encounter: Smith attended a lecture by Willard during his time as a student at Friends University, initially finding Willard’s language challenging.
• Collaborative Efforts: Became a teaching assistant for Willard’s courses at Fuller Spirituality Ministry, gaining deeper exposure to his philosophies.
• Vocational Influence: Willard’s background in philosophy enriched his theological teachings, providing a unique framework for Christian formation.

Notable Quote:
Reflecting on his early interactions, Smith admits, “I couldn't understand him... his vocabulary was different” (11:10).

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6. Personal Experiences and Growth Through Dallas Willard’s Teachings

Smith describes the transformative impact of Willard’s teachings on his own understanding of spiritual formation. The pivotal moment came during a course segment on the Sermon on the Mount, where Smith began to fully grasp Willard’s definitions and concepts.

Key Points:

• Terminology Differences: Willard redefined common Christian terms, such as “grace” and “kingdom,” to encompass broader theological meanings.
• Evolution of Understanding: It took several years and multiple courses for Smith to fully internalize Willard’s teachings.
• Educational Tools: References to resources like “The Dallas Dictionary” highlight the need to correctly interpret Willard’s terminology for proper comprehension.

Notable Quote:
Smith explains the breakthrough, “So I think it was somewhere in the third year when all. Suddenly the lights were going on. And now that makes sense” (15:19).

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7. Dallas Willard’s Teaching Style and Humility

Sky and Smith discuss Willard’s unique and humble approach to teaching. Despite his profound insights, Willard remained modest, often shunning elaborate introductions and focusing solely on conveying his message.

Key Points:

• Humility: Willard consistently attributed his teachings to the Holy Spirit rather than personal achievement.
• Teaching Method: Utilized significant pauses to allow listeners to absorb information, demonstrating confidence in the substance of his message.
• Personal Anecdotes: Smith shares stories illustrating Willard’s humility, such as his reluctance to be quoted excessively and his practical disregard for personal appearance concerns.

Notable Quotes:
Smith recounts Willard’s humility, “It was God, you know. Right. He genuinely believed that what he was saying and doing was not him” (21:04).
He also shares a personal story: “He was wearing these navy blue slacks and I noticed... he was going to keep those old slacks and he's going to have them stitched up and it doesn't bother him” (25:53).

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8. Understanding Dallas Willard’s Philosophical Influence

Willard’s background in philosophy, particularly his studies in Husserl, significantly influenced his theological perspectives. This philosophical foundation allowed him to integrate deep theological concepts seamlessly into Christian formation.

Key Points:

• Philosophical Training: Willard’s expertise in phenomenology provided a robust framework for his spiritual teachings.
• Unique Perspective: His ability to bridge philosophy and theology made his work particularly distinctive and impactful.
• Mentorship: Despite his profound knowledge, Willard remained approachable and focused on fostering genuine spiritual growth rather than academic acclaim.

Notable Quote:
Smith reflects on Willard’s uniqueness, “He was a unique trailblazing guy from, from the beginning. And so now I'm hanging out with him and in, in greater I'm like, I'm working with him and in, in greater I'm like, I'm working with him” (18:01).

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9. Conclusion: Legacy of Dallas Willard and Spiritual Formation

The episode concludes with a reflection on Dallas Willard’s enduring legacy in Christian spiritual formation. Smith emphasizes the importance of understanding Willard’s terminology and philosophical underpinnings to fully appreciate and apply his teachings.

Key Points:

• Enduring Influence: Willard’s teachings continue to shape contemporary Christian thought and practice.
• Holistic Discipleship: His emphasis on a life fully integrated with spiritual disciplines remains a cornerstone of modern Christian formation.
• Continued Relevance: As spiritual formation gains broader acceptance, Willard’s insights remain as pertinent as ever for those seeking deeper spiritual lives.

Notable Quote:
Smith encapsulates Willard’s essence, “He knows it was from the Holy Spirit. It was not him... so he just didn't need to impress people” (21:04).

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Final Thoughts

This episode of The SkyePod offers a profound exploration of spiritual formation through the lens of James Ryan Smith’s experiences and his interactions with Dallas Willard. Listeners gain valuable insights into the challenges and triumphs of integrating deep spiritual practices within modern Christianity, underscored by the enduring wisdom of one of its most influential thinkers.

Transcript

[James Ryan Smith]

He just. He said, john Wesley. And I went, he's been dead 250 years.

[Sky]

James Ryan Smith, welcome to the show.

[James Ryan Smith]

Glad to be here, Sky. Anytime I can spend time with you. He's a blessing.

[Sky]

That is kind. And we. We were fortunate enough to get some time together not too long ago down at French Friends University.

[James Ryan Smith]

I.

[Sky]

It was my first time there. It was a lovely place. I really appreciated the. The invitation was there for the Apprentice Gathering. Is that what you call it?

[James Ryan Smith]

Right.

[Sky]

Okay.

[James Ryan Smith]

Right.

[Sky]

So for those who don't. Who don't know what you're doing and what you're up to, I mean, what don't you do? So you're a professor at Friends University, professor of theology. You're the director of the Apprentice Institute, which we'll get into that in a little bit. You're the author of a lot of books, probably more books than I have Brain Cells. The Good and Beautiful series. The Good and Beautiful God. Good and Beautiful. If it's good and beautiful, you've written a book about it. Apparently you were on the Holy Post some time ago because we were talking about your book about Rich Mullins, because you had a long friendship with Rich and wrote a biography of him. And we talked about his life and music and Testimony was great. But I brought you back because there's someone else I really wanted to talk about who's no longer with us. And I thought, who better to talk about Dallas Willard with than James Ryan Smith? Because you knew Dallas better than I did and spent a lot of time with him, and his work has obviously influenced a lot of your work. So before we get into that, though, tell everybody what the Apprentice Institute. Institution. Institute.

[James Ryan Smith]

What institute?

[Sky]

Institute. What? Yeah, what is it and why is it called that?

[James Ryan Smith]

Well, the acronym is AI. So we are going to take over the world, clearly. The Apprentice Institute. It's the Apprentice Institute for Christian Formation. And we. We support three degrees, an undergraduate degree and a master's degree and a demin in Christian spiritual formation and soul care. So teaching students of all ages. We're at a university, so obviously we're about education. But we also have the Apprentice Gathering that you spoke at. That's an annual conference where we bring in writers and speakers who write about God and faith and formation. And that's. It's been an incredible event to have people come from all around the country. We've sold out the last several. We're going to sell out again. And we sold out the one you were. You were recently at, so it's a lovely experience. In the last week of September and a podcast called Things above. And. And I have people that I bring on and also do solo devotionals about how to set your mind on Things above, as Paul said in Colossians 3.

[Sky]

So when you talk about formation, which is a lot of your books, a lot of your teaching, the Apprentice Institute, all these things are around formation. You've been a part of this for a long time. You were one of the founding members of Renovare with Richard Foster and those who know that. So this isn't a new concept for you. You've been around. How have you seen interest in this part of Christian faith change since its inception, or where you at least began with it to where it is today? Is it growing? Is it waning? Are you encouraged? Are you discouraged? There's a lot going on in the American church. But this formation piece, where do you see it at?

[James Ryan Smith]

It is growing. To get to the answer of one one of your questions, it continues to be growing. I was, as my students call me, I'm an og. I was one one of the original, because I was there, as it says in Hamilton, in the room where it happened, when Richard gathered together, Dallas Willard, myself, I was a young guy. But he had some formation teachers and leaders gathered together to start Renovare. I don't recommend naming your organization Latin word, no one can say. But we did. And we were working in the area of spiritual formation before it was trendy or cool or interesting. In fact, we got picketed. Not joking. Early on, there were. There were people who. Because Richard was. He wrote celebration of discipline, 1978. That was a massive success. It blew up. So you got Henry Nouwen writing information, Thomas Merton writing information. Those are Catholic writers. Here comes Foster. He's opening up spirituality to Protestants. And they're like, whoa, who is this guy's Quaker? I don't know what they are, but they love the book. And the book took off. And so people were wanting Richard to come to do everything. His speaking was in high demand. And he said, well, I'll come, but I actually don't want to just talk about celebration. I want to do this thing called renovari. It's a renewal ministry. And he hooked me into that right from the very beginning. I was a student he had mentored. And so we'd collaborated on some of the early Renovari resources. So we went all around the country. He and I did 56 Renovare regional conferences over a period of seven years. And in those early days, there were people who are Like, I don't know, spiritual formation, Southeastern. It's new age, it's dangerous. It's of the devil. It was. There was quite a. Quite a bit of pushback.

[Sky]

What year would this have been?

[James Ryan Smith]

This would be the late 80s, into the early 90s.

[Sky]

Okay.

[James Ryan Smith]

And so it was. It was challenging. The. The attacks were pretty real. It was great for me because I got to sit in the room where Richard and Dallas were actually talking about how do we respond to this? And. And how they'd responded, I think taught me a lot. The way that they. They didn't just try to fight back. They tried to sort of say, this is what we're really about. Spiritual formation isn't really new. It's new to Protestants. It was then.

[Sky]

Right.

[James Ryan Smith]

Because in the Catholic tradition, this goes way back. But spiritual formation in the Catholic tradition meant the training of priests. So in 1980. Yeah.

[Sky]

Was. Was the pushback. I assume they were. And you were using the phrase spiritual formation at the time, was the pushback coming from people who were claiming this is mysticism, this is Eastern, this is foreign to Christianity, and therefore demonic, or was the pushback. This sounds too Catholic. And we Protestants think Catholics are crazy and dangerous, and we don't want anything that smells, looks, or acts in any way Catholic.

[James Ryan Smith]

The Catholic was one of the big shots that people would take against us. It sounded very Catholic for Protestants. You know, Richard has a chapter on meditation in celebration of discipline. That's. That was the lightning rod that caused so much problem. If he did just didn't have that chapter, it would have been a different story. But he stuck by that chapter in the 10th anniversary edition. He tried to rewrite it to help people. That didn't work. That. That was just. That was too far for some Christians. We can't meditate. And that was. That was a big one. And then the practices seem to be Catholic, as you're pointing out. You know, renovari. I don't know how many listeners would be familiar, but it's built on these six streams. And so the contemplative stream, very Catholic for a lot of people. It's like, I got to go to a Catholic retreat center and, you know, or Orthodox and say the Jesus prayer 100 times or something. So it just seemed like that's out of bounds for me. And then you got the evangelical and the charismatic. That bothered people. And social justice, really, what I found, because I wrote the spiritual formation workbook in 1992, it came out. Nobody liked all six. I mean, the sacramental life or incarnational like the sixth tradition. Be like, yeah, I don't like that. Those are the. And so it was an uphill battle in those early days.

[C]

Was there a tipping point?

[Sky]

I mean, you talked about Celebration of Discipline, written in the late 70s, but was there a tipping point with this movement or its acceptance among Protestants, especially evangelicals, where it shifted from suspicion. It's Eastern, it's Catholic, it's foreign to. Oh, it's actually a more biblical way of talking about discipleship.

[James Ryan Smith]

Right.

[Sky]

When did. Has it happened? Is there a tipping point where you found, like, oh, there's less resistance now. It's curiosity, and now it's openness. And what. What was that shift?

[James Ryan Smith]

I think there was. And I actually have a date, or at least a year. 2005. 2005 was the tipping point.

[Sky]

Why?

[James Ryan Smith]

I. Well, so 1988, Dallas writes Spirit of the Disciplines. Now that's going to really enhance what Richard. Richard was just writing about the disciplines. Here's how serious. Solitude, fasting, prayer, study, worship. He was all about the practices. Dallas suddenly gave us this deep foundation biblically. So people are going, okay, wait, there's more to this than just doing the disciplines. That helped a great deal. But then a huge turning point was the divine conspiracy, and that came out in 1998. So. So that book then suddenly opened up a whole different avenue. I think also just time. It was just over time, people got a little less afraid, like, you know, the devil's not going to jump out of a bush and get you because you fasted or something. I think people started to go that, nah. And I think the hunger was just so real. People wanted some way. Because you mentioned discipleship, that's been around, but discipleship for most people, man, I go to Sunday school and I have a devotion. Formation is holistic. It's your whole life. Everybody's getting a formation. So Dallas was teaching that. But here's. I'll close with this. 2005, why that date? We had a renovare international conference in Denver. It was at a big downtown coliseum, 2500 people. That's a big conference on formation. You can draw big conferences for a lot of other things, but on formation. And I remember walking into the room with Richard Foster. I saw this crowd. There were no pickets coming in and all that. But I remember walking in and I just turned to him, I said, it's. It's different now. Something changed this. And I look back at that as the tipping point, because there were 2500 people from around the country. They weren't arguing anymore. They weren't fighting anymore. They were saying, I'm hungry for a deeper life with God and that's why I'm here.

[Sky]

That's, that was my experience. It was probably around 2005, maybe slightly before that, maybe 2002 is when I read Divine Conspiracy and was introduced to the work of Dallas. I had read Celebration of Discipline before. I was familiar with these concepts going back to my college years in the mid-90s. But yeah, Dallas's writing is what gave it the framework that made sense to me. Okay, let's back up. When did you first meet Dallas, Willard or first encounter him or his work?

[James Ryan Smith]

So Richard brought him to Friends. We had a thing, I was a student at Friends University and we had a thing called Christian Emphasis Week. It was a Staley lectures and Richard brought Dallas in for a three day lecture series. And Richard had said to me, you know, you really need to be there. You mean, you know, this guy's a big deal. He's, I've known him. So I was there front row man. I was there with my notebook afterwards. This was in the day of cassette tapes. I got the cassette tapes, I listened over and over and I couldn't understand him. Like I, I, I just went, I, I Richard, you said he's important and this is big, but I don't, he was just his vocabulary, his language was. So I did get to be his courier. I got to drive him to and from the airport. So I, I first experienced him as a person though. I thought this guy, like the fruit of the spirit comes out of this guy. His person exudes love and joy and peace and he's just kind and humble. And so I thought I don't, I can't understand you yet, but I really like whatever you're doing. And so that was, that was early 80s. And then 1988, Richards assembles us to start renovari. Dallas is one of the original founding members. And so now I'm hanging out with him and in, in greater I'm like, I'm working with him. I shouldn't be. I'm just a kid. And he's, but I'm there just soaking it. What he had to go, you know what he was saying? And then the next big turning point was, I think it was 1993, he taught a demon course at Fuller Spirituality Ministry. And the course became the most popular course and there was like 45 students in the class. And second year Dallas taught, he said I, I need a TA. So they, Fuller knew me, I knew them, Dallas and I and so that was just agreed upon. So for the next seven years, I was his TA every summer for two weeks. That was huge because I sat at the table when he was teaching. So imagine I'm just sitting at the table in the front, which I shouldn't have been. And here's. Here's Dallas teaching for eight hours a day. And until he got tired. When you get tired, he'd go, why don't you just talk about the Trinity or something?

[Sky]

That's something easy.

[James Ryan Smith]

So it's. It's something I just. Oh, yeah. So. And so. But. But over time, that's when I was exposed to his way of thinking. And it was really, really challenging because I. I didn't understand what he was saying. I mean, it was embarrassing, frankly, because students would come up, they were intimidated by him. So they come up during break times and say, what does Dallas mean by the kingdom? What does he mean by. And I go, I don't know. I. I don't know yet.

[Sky]

Okay, so, I mean, your first encounter with him as a student, you're sitting in that front row. You didn't understand him then, but driving him back and forth at the airport, you thought, this guy, he's got something I like. I don't get it, but I like it. And even right as a ta, hearing him talk for hours and hours and hours, you still didn't get it. Yeah. I mean, that. Honestly, that makes me feel good. That really makes me feel better about myself.

[James Ryan Smith]

Yes.

[Sky]

The reason I wanted to have you on and to even talk about this is I'm sure people who've listened to me over the years on the Holy Post or these other shows, like, I quote, quote Dallas all the time. I reference Dallas all the time. I tell certain stories of my limited experience with him. One of the most influential contemporary thinkers and writers about the Christian life on my Christian life, for sure. And so I wanted to do two things. I wanted to just explore your relationship with him because you knew him far better than I did and get to hear your stories about the man and what he taught. But secondly, I wanted to have you on so that together, you. You and I could introduce Dallas to other people who need to learn from him and how to get started in understanding. So toward that end, when did the penny drop for you? Or when did you suddenly, maybe not suddenly realize, oh, now I get it. I kind of get what Dallas is talking about, where maybe there was more you comprehended than you didn't. But was there some encounter, some experience, some moment, or maybe conversation with him? Where it started to make sense.

[James Ryan Smith]

I think it was the third year I was the ta and his curriculum stayed largely the same. The book list and, and his lectures, you're always different. He was always serving what he was cooking. But, but, but it was largely the same. But it was in that third year that he, when he walked through the Sermon on the Mount, which is a big part of the divine conspiracy is about, it was then that all of the words finally made sense. What I say to people is Dallas, his vocabulary is different. He defines words differently than we do. That's the, that's the, the disconnect that we have. Because when he says grace, we think unmerited forgiveness. When Dallas says grace, he means all of God's action in our lives. Right. When he says the kingdom, we often think, oh, that's the thing that's going to happen when Jesus returns. Like, you know, he was here for a minute and left for Dallas. It's a present reality right now. And the list goes on and on.

[Sky]

So I actually have a dictionary of Dallas.

[James Ryan Smith]

There's two. Yeah, there's one online. There's one. An actual book. The Dallas dictionary. Yep. And, and that, that's. And so what I say to people is if you don't define your terms correctly, you end up telling the wrong story.

[Sky]

Right.

[James Ryan Smith]

And that's, that's why I say to people, when you first are studying Dallas, you need to understand what he means by his terms. Once you interpret those correctly, oh, the story makes sense. So I think it was somewhere in the third year when all. Suddenly the lights were going on. And now that makes sense. The Beatitudes. This makes sense. This is. Oh, and it just took a long time, but it began, it began to be something like, I, I think I really do understand to an extent all that he was getting at.

[Sky]

So the fact that he isn't immediately accessible, some people would find that off putting. Right. A barrier of sorts. And yet there's a lot of Jesus in that. There were tons of people were shaking their head, what is this guy talking about? And even in the parables, they didn't get it. And Jesus said, yeah, I talk this way because people aren't always going to get it. Part of Dallas's opaqueness, though, or the barrier to engaging him, did it come from the fact that he is trained in philosophy rather than. He didn't come from Christian ministry background? I mean, obviously he had a lot of experience in the church, but that wasn't his vocation. He was a philosopher at usc. Was that part of it. And is that in a weird way what made him so useful is that he was coming and challenging us with a different framework of things.

[James Ryan Smith]

Yeah, certainly the philosophy background was huge because when he studied Husserl, that was his primary focus when he was doing his PhD work that he was able to, he had a philosophical framework that he saw that fit perfectly into the Christian faith. And, and, and frankly I, I don't think he found anybody that he could say, well I'm just like that person. He was a unique trailblazing guy from, from the beginning. And that, that's a unique thing that I would learn much later even actually more after he passed, looking back on his life, that he was pretty unique. I once asked him like, who's your mentor? And I assumed he was going to tell me, you know, this old pastor that was whatever. He just, he said John Wesley. And I went, he's been dead 250 years, Dallas. And Dallas laughed. Of course I know that James. But, but he, he said no, he said I've. If there's anyone whose framework I'm the closest with in terms of understanding the gospel and formation in the Christian life, it'd be Wesley. And so, but otherwise he was just his own unique because you read Wesley and I don't necessarily see all the Willard here and, and, and you read what will say I don't see all the Wesley I do see, but he was this unique person that was going down a road. Partly, as you said, that was the philosophical background, but it was just he, he saw pretty early. And this is the other thing that's fascinating when you, when you look back at his life, he was teaching on this stuff. There's really early recordings of him teaching this stuff in the 60s and 70s really. But way before he was famous. Like people didn't know anything about him and he wouldn't, he didn't want to be famous. He wasn't trying to.

[Sky]

Right.

[James Ryan Smith]

To like build a career. Richard had Swiss his arm did publishing his first book in Christian spirituality, which is Hearing God Now. It was In Search of Guidance was the original title. He never. But he would always get invited to churches and he was always teaching in these church basements with 20 people. He was teaching the stuff that would later be in the Divine Conspiracy or Spirit of the Discipline. So he was working on this stuff early and it was just unique and different then all the way up to. Well now it's, now it's more known.

[Sky]

I mean he lived in not obscurity. I mean he was a professor at usc. But, but he wasn't seeking the spotlight of the Christian subculture and the conference circuit and Christian publishing and all that nonsense. When he kind of burst onto the scene, he was later in life. I mean, how old was he when divine conspiracy?

[James Ryan Smith]

65.

[Sky]

Yeah, he was 65 years old. Did you have any conversations with him or did you notice anything in him when he did become more well known? Did it affect him in any way?

[James Ryan Smith]

Not in my experience, no. I mean, he was just genuinely a person of humility. He knew that any good came from God. I mean, you know, we can, we can give lip service to that. Well, you know, great sermon. Well, it was God, you know. Right. He genuinely believed that what he was saying and doing was not him. You know, you mentioned you quote him a lot. I quote him a lot. I would quote him in front of him and that really bugged him. And he would take me aside later and say, stop quoting me. I said, I can't say it better. Yeah, I, I, I tried to, I tried to rewrite that sentence that you said, and I can't make it better. And I said, why does it bother you so much? He said, well, because if it was any good, it was from the Holy Spirit. It was not me. So don't, you don't need, you don't need to say das. Dallas Willard said, I'm still going to do it. I'm in the academy.

[Sky]

Right.

[James Ryan Smith]

I've got to give reference to the footnote. I'm not going to just say it like, you know, plagiarized.

[Sky]

Okay. So the, I've told this story before, and some of the audience might remember this, but the first time I saw Dallas Willard in person, I had read Divine Conspiracy, but the first time I saw him in person was at a ministry conference in San Diego. National Pastors Convention. I forget what it was called.

[James Ryan Smith]

Oh, right.

[Sky]

Remember those, those things?

[James Ryan Smith]

Yeah.

[Sky]

Anyway, I was there as a reporter for CT Leadership Journal, and I was there with my boss, Marshall, and there were a bunch of breakout sessions happening, and there were some, I don't remember who exactly the lineup was that year, but there was like the, the Rob Bell types and the Mark Driscoll types, kind of these young, hot, hip, you know, charismatic, lowercase c kind of items, and everyone's excited about them. And so we're kind of going down the hallway poking into these different breakout sessions to see what's going on. And is there one we want to sit in and on report? Possibly. And Dallas was there and he was doing a breakout session and we cracked open the door and you could not get, I mean you would need a lubricant to get another person into that room, right? It was so crammed. And we listened for a few seconds at the door and then we couldn't get in, so went out into the hall. And I remember Marshall saying to me like I don't get it. What is the appeal? I mean here's this 60 something year old, 70 year old guy, not a church leader, certainly not a megachurch leader. He's not flashy, he's not exciting, he doesn't talk in a way that is dynamic. He uses weird words, it's hard to understand him. And yet the place is crammed with people literally sitting at his feet because there's no more chairs. What would your explanation have been to Marshall as to why that room was as crammed as it was?

[James Ryan Smith]

He had something to say and one of, one of the things that he would, he would say a lot, particularly in this, this Dr. Ministry course. And now you're talking to pastors, right? Mainly the class was made up of pastors. And he would say stop worrying about the size of the crowds or the people coming to hear you just die to that. Instead focus on having something to say if you have something significant to say and then people will come. And I, I, I think that was the secret to it. What he was saying was incredibly compelling. Your analysis is spot on. Not a spellbinding speaker, almost, you know, monotone, ish, quiet, slow in his delivery. Really slow.

[Sky]

Yeah.

[James Ryan Smith]

One time he even asked him, I was like, you have huge pauses. Like they tell us not to pause that long in speaking courses. And he goes, well I'm just giving them time to catch up. But he, he wasn't worried. He's like, I just said something really important. They're not going to get it right away. I'm just going to sit here for 15, 20 seconds. So he, he just, he knew he had something to say. Again, not prideful. I was, I was stunned how he, he hated introductions. He would, he would say to people, I, I would watch him say to the host of a conference with place, we were doing a conference together and he would tell them in a very polite way, I don't want an introduction. Like if you have to just say this is Dallas Willard, he teaches it, that's fine, but I don't want, and I'd watch him just, he, when the long ones would go on because some people were like so excited to give this two page introduction all of his accomplishments. And I Could just see him going, oh, this is painful. He was a genuinely humble guy, but he had something really significant to say and he knew that pretty early on and still was never itching to get a crowd. Weird. Really strange cat in that regard.

[Sky]

Yes, he was. I, I had a few times to spend with him when I interviewed him for different articles at ct. The first time I ever sat down and interviewed him was at usc, at his office and then outside and, and I don't know why this stuck in my head, but we were sitting outside and I think we had a photographer there to take a couple pictures of him for, for the piece that we were working on. And he was wearing these navy blue slacks and I noticed that maybe it was around the knee that there was a tear in his pants that had been stitched, you know, sewn up, repaired in some way. And I just thought, yeah, that's Dallas Willard. Like, I would have thrown the pants out. I would have gone and bought another pair somewhere. But no, he's, he's going to keep those old slacks and he's going to have them stitched up and it doesn't bother him that his pants have a hole in them that are stitched. It was irrelevant. And yeah, you're right, he was a genuinely humble person. But. And sometimes we say that and you go, there's always that scent of false humility.

[James Ryan Smith]

Right.

[Sky]

I never had that sense when I was with them.

[James Ryan Smith]

And I'm.

[Sky]

No, I'm glad to hear that. You spent much more time than I did. And you, you affirm that.

[James Ryan Smith]

Yeah, completely. Yeah. It wasn't self effacement. It wasn't that he didn't have confidence in what he was saying. It was just that he, like, like I said, he knew it was, it came from God. He was very grounded in that and he just didn't need to impress people. I mean, that your story of the pants, right, that, that was typical of him. He, he didn't. You know what's funny? Here's the thing. I, I do dress like pretty nicely. I like to. My mom was in that field growing up and even I had a student today in class, like, man, you dress stylish, Dr. Smith. You know, he, I, I thought maybe he might say something to me about that one time and he just said, he said he was wrong about this one thing. Dallas Folder was wrong.

[C]

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[Sky]

Have to hear this dumb announcement again.

[C]

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