John Ortberg

Summary

The SkyePod – John Ortberg
Host: Skye Jethani | Date: April 3, 2026
Guest: John Ortberg

---

Episode Overview

In this episode of The SkyePod, Skye Jethani hosts John Ortberg for a wide-ranging, deeply personal conversation. The focus is on Ortberg’s upbringing, family background, faith formation, educational journey, and the evolution of American evangelicalism during his formative years. Both host and guest delve into their personal histories and reflect on generational changes in church culture, the social issues of their youth, and how those dynamics influenced their vocational choices.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Family Background and Upbringing

• Ortberg's Roots

  • Grew up in Rockford, Illinois, in a family "of faith" within the Baptist tradition, deeply influenced by Swedish pietism.
  • Father's side: Swedish heritage, with his father a CPA; mother's side: English heritage, more generationally American.
  • Middle child—one older sister, one younger brother ([02:16]).

• Growing Up in Rockford

  • "Rockford was kind of a Swedish town ... for any of our Scandinavian listeners, believe it or not." – John Ortberg ([01:47])
  • Host Skye mentions his own Scandinavian roots.

2. Childhood Interests and Personality

• Ortberg was introverted but aspired to see himself as extroverted and a leader.
• Loved reading, was into sports (primarily tennis), and enjoyed music, playing piano "recreationally, therapeutically, not well, and sing[ing] but the same thing" ([03:52]).

3. Early Experience with Public Speaking

• Started speaking publicly around age 10 or 11, coached by his Toastmaster father.
• “I got fairly good at doing that when I was 11 years old. ... I actually loved speaking, being in front of a crowd ... from a pretty early age on.” – John Ortberg ([04:10])
• Entertained several possible futures: ministry, law/politics, psychology, teaching.

4. Reflections on Church Experience and Social Issues

• Positive church experience: “It was, I would say, positive for our family ... kind of down the middle, white bread evangelicalism, as evangelicalism was expressed at that time.” – Ortberg ([06:28])
• Internalized some problematic attitudes (e.g., superficial litmus tests for “who's Christian and who's not”).
• Social issues (civil rights, assassinations of the late 1960s) were not addressed in his church.
  • “I don’t remember hearing those issues talked about at the church where I was growing up. And I think there was very little integration between faith in Jesus and those kind of social issues.” – Ortberg ([07:45])
• Exposure to social issues through folk music and personal interest in history and politics: “My folks for some reason introduced us to a folk group called the Chad Mitchell Trio. ... they would sing a fair amount of protest musical and stuff that was relatively progressive ...” ([09:07])
• Developed an early fascination with American politics, collecting books about presidents and democratic processes.

5. Higher Education: Wheaton College

• No strong intention in the college choice—followed his sister and mother’s encouragement.
• Observed a more casual culture around college decisions compared to today ([11:10]).
• Majored in psychology, influenced also by a meaningful connection with Jerry Hawthorne (New Testament Greek professor) and a tight-knit group of friends.
• “That experience of community and deep friendship was a huge gift and very formative for my life.” ([13:55])

6. Wrestling with Vocation

• Ortberg felt the call to ministry was gently suggested by mentors rather than a supernatural experience.
• “Some of you, you could do any number of things. ... Some of you should think about devoting yourself to pastoral ministry. There’s a big need for it. ... And that always kind of stuck with me.” – Ortberg, recalling Jerry Hawthorne ([15:14])
• Recognized at Wheaton there existed pockets that elevated pastoral or mission work as the highest call, complicating vocational discernment for him ([16:20]).

7. Family’s Response to Career Choices

• Family supportive but not directive; both parents eventually joined church staff, in a sense following John into ministry ([18:22]).
• Not pressured to choose pastoral work, academia, or therapy.

8. Graduate Education at Fuller Seminary

• Chose Fuller for the unique opportunity to earn both an MDiv and a PhD in clinical psychology: “At that time, that was the only place where you could get both of those degrees from one institution at the same time.” ([19:18])
• Described his move to California as a major personal leap ([19:18]).
• Dual degree program took six years.

9. Evangelicalism in the Late 1970s and 1980s

• Skye prompts Ortberg to reflect on the evangelical "vibe" in late 1970s (the Carter years), the influence of Billy Graham, and cultural optimism.

• Distinctions between evangelicalism and fundamentalism were much clearer then than now; the former seen as more culturally engaged, the latter as separatist ([22:24]).

• “You can peg the extent to which somebody was an evangelical in those days by the way they would respond to the name Billy Graham.” ([21:58])

• Media, institutions, and denominational boundaries maintained sharper lines than today.

• Skye: “I’ve wondered if when the history books are written on the 20th century expression of evangelicalism, it’s essentially going to be the lifespan of Billy Graham.” ([24:17])

• Ortberg and Skye agree: the collapse of mainline dominance and Billy Graham’s centrality defined an era now lost.

10. First Steps into Pastoral Ministry

• Began working part-time at a church while still at Fuller; lacked a clear “calling moment,” which created some confusion given tradition ([25:27]).
• “I come from a tradition where if somebody becomes a pastor, the understanding was they’re supposed to have the call … I never had that.” ([25:31])

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Identity:
  "I was more introverted, but I had a need to think that I was extroverted. I wanted to think of myself as a leader, and so it probably took me a long time to come to grips with basic wiring in that way." – John Ortberg ([02:57])

• On Cultural Engagement:
  “I was aware of it. This will sound really weird ... they would sing a fair amount of protest musical and stuff that was relatively progressive, that was more aware of those kind of social issues that were going on.” – John Ortberg ([09:07])

• On the Evangelical Identity:
  “You can peg the extent to which somebody was an evangelical in those days by the way they would respond to the name Billy Graham.” – John Ortberg ([21:58])

• Humorous Moments:

  • Ortberg jokes about cultural upheaval: "The assassination of Abraham Lincoln was very..." ([00:08]; [07:45])
  • Banntering about Dr. (Diet) Pepper and academic titles ([00:33]–[01:04]).

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Family & Upbringing: [01:14]–[02:44]
• Personality & Early Interests: [02:57]–[04:10]
• Public Speaking Origin: [04:10]–[05:40]
• Evangelical Church Context: [06:28]–[07:37]
• Social Issues and Church: [07:45]–[11:00]
• College Decision: [11:00]–[13:55]
• Sense of Vocation: [15:14]–[17:34]
• Grad School at Fuller: [19:06]–[20:54]
• Evangelicalism in the 1970s-80s: [20:54]–[24:17]
• First Pastoral Ministry Steps: [25:27]–[26:34]

---

Tone and Atmosphere

The conversation is warm, reflective, and occasionally playful. Both men share freely from their backgrounds, engage in witty banter, and approach even critical reflections on evangelicalism with grace and nuance. Ortberg is candid about uncertainties, grateful for positive experiences, and honest about the complexities of his formation. Skye connects through shared academic interests and generational perspective.

---

Summary

This episode offers a rich tapestry of John Ortberg’s story—his Swedish/English familial roots, a positive but limited evangelical upbringing, and his multidimensional interests leading to a nuanced, well-educated vocation in ministry and psychology. Along the way, listeners get a guided tour through the changing landscape of American evangelicalism from the 1960s to the 1980s, the rise and decline of certain Christian subcultures, and the lived experience of religious identity in formative years. Ideal for anyone interested in personal faith journeys, history, and cultural shifts within American Christianity.

To hear the remainder of the episode and the continuation of Ortberg’s narration of his vocational journey, listeners are encouraged to subscribe to Holy Post Plus.

Transcript

[A]

I don't want to betray your age, but how did you react to some of the cultural upheaval that was going on?

[B]

The assassination of Abraham Lincoln was very. Hey, everybody.

[A]

Welcome back to the Skypod, brought to you by Holy Post Media. I'm joined today by John Ortberg. Hi, John Sky.

[B]

It's good to see you. Are we also brought by Dr. Pepper?

[A]

Yes. Diet Dr. Pepper is the beverage of choice here in the Holy Post Media studio. We're still waiting for some sponsorship money from them, but I think they get more product placement than anything else on our program.

[B]

Maybe if it was the Reverend Dr. Pepper, it should be big in Texas.

[A]

You're a doctor, are you not?

[B]

I. I am a doctor, yes.

[A]

You are a doctor. I never got my doctorate, but maybe honorary one day. Who knows? See if someone wants to honor me with that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Delighted to talk to you today. So I want to begin with your. Just tell me where you came from.

[B]

So geographically, I grew up in Rockford, Illinois. I was raised by a family of faith. Grew up in a Baptist church. It was part of what then was the Baptist General Conference. Kind of came from Swedish pietist roots and they went to Wheaton College and then went to Fuller Seminary.

[A]

Hold on, you're going too fast. You're going too fast. John, slow down a little bit. Okay, tell me your family, Rockford, what did your parents do?

[B]

My father was a cpa, certified public accountant and from a full blooded Swedish family. Rockford was kind of a Swedish town and so his family in particular very much had deep roots for any of our Scandinavian listeners, believe it or not.

[A]

My grandmother was Swedish.

[B]

I totally believe it. It always felt like you and I had like some.

[A]

My grandfather was Norwegian though. That's. That's a whole nother thing.

[B]

That's, that's, that's sad. That's the, the epitome of humor in Rockford when I was growing up was Norwegian jokes. So. So that was my dad's side, my mom, her family, kind of English mutt heritage. Been in the US for quite a few previous generations. And I have a sister 14 months older than me and a brother who's five years younger.

[A]

Okay, so you're the middle kid. And what kind of kid were you growing up? Were you scholastic? Were you an athlete? Were you a bookworm? Did you defy categorization?

[B]

I don't think anybody defies categorization. I love to read. So that was definitely there. Probably a child of very limited self awareness. I was more introverted, but I had a need to Think that I was extroverted. I wanted to think of myself as a leader, and so it probably took me a long time to come to grips with basic wiring in that way. I like sports. Tennis was my main sport through high school and college. Enjoyed playing basketball, but not a jock, not a great player. I liked music a lot and. And still do. So pretty involved, pretty, pretty engaged in stuff like that.

[A]

So you, you didn't just enjoy music, you played it, you were musical.

[B]

I. I play the piano, but recreationally, therapeutically, not well, and sing, but the same thing.

[A]

All right, and. And when you were, I don't know, elementary, middle school age, what did you think you were going to do when you grew up? What was your ambition?

[B]

Well, this is kind of weird. I did around the age of 10 or 11, I got invited to speak at something, probably church initially. And my dad was not naturally a gifted speaker, but he was in an organization called Toastmasters, and they have a particular approach to speaking. So he worked with me on putting a talk together. And I still have. He would have, like, a yellow eagle pad and we would, like, brainstorm, what's the talk going to be about? Do some research on it, put it together, memorize it, practice delivering. And so I got fairly good at doing that when I was 11 years old. And so for a couple of years did that at a number of different events. Rockford's not a real big city, so one event would lead to another. So I actually loved speaking, being in front of a crowd, just the different aspects of that from a pretty early age on. And being involved with church. I would say that preaching church ministry was always a possibility, but only a possibility. There were some points when I thought being a lawyer and going into politics was cool. I've always enjoyed history, American history, a lot. And then psychology was really interesting to me. And so going in that direction, or maybe teaching was something that was really interesting.

[A]

I mean, I have a connection with you there too, because I was a history major as an undergrad.

[B]

Oh, no kidding.

[A]

History and comparative religion. And I seriously debated going to law school or going to seminary. Always enjoy politics, too. That's why I talk about it so much on my shows. But unlike you, I had no speaking or stage experience as a child. I was aggressively introverted and tried to avoid any spotlight that might possibly appear. So that was reluctant. But yeah, those interests were the same. When you were growing up in the church. You mentioned a Baptist church. Was that a positive experience for you? I mean, it sounds like it. If you were thinking about maybe Being a preacher. So you didn't grow up with some angst about the church or some rebellious streak in you. At some point you're like, I got to get out of this.

[B]

Yeah, no, it was a positive thing. It was, I would say, positive for our family. You know, it was certainly not a perfect place. It would have been just kind of down the middle, white bread evangelicalism, as evangelicalism was expressed at that time, Christianity today, Wheaton College, those kind of alignments, that's where it would have sat. And it's certainly a background for which I am grateful. And I think that the flaws were probably flaws that I internalized more in being too smug and too self satisfied and having kind of superficial litmus tests of who's Christian and who's not. So there were certainly flaws that I would have experienced in it, but they would have been more probably ones that I myself would have owned and integrated into my life, as opposed to felt pain over and wanted to distance from.

[A]

I don't want to betray your age, but how did you react to some of the cultural upheaval that was going on?

[B]

The assassination of Abraham Lincoln was very, no, I will be 69 in another month or so. Yeah, that would be one of the areas where I would say that the church in which I grew up was not effective in addressing social issues. Social gospel tended to be negative language attributed to people that had ceased to be orthodox. So when I was. I would have been 11 years old in 1968, when Martin Luther King was assassinated, Robert Kennedy was assassinated, civil rights movement would have been very big. I don't remember hearing those issues talked about at the church where I was growing up. And I think there was very little integration between faith in Jesus and those kind of social issues.

[A]

And were you aware of those social issues at 11, or were they just kind of. They weren't in your immediate community in Rockford, perhaps, or maybe they showed up on the nightly news, but they didn't affect your daily life. So were you oblivious to it or were you aware of it? And in any sense of. Why doesn't my community or my faith talk about this?

[B]

I was aware of it. This will sound really weird to this day. I was mentioning. I like music. My folks for some reason introduced us to a folk group called the Chad Mitchell Trio. Relatively obscure group, but as with many folk groups, they would sing a fair amount of protest musical and stuff that was relatively progressive, that was more aware of those kind of social issues that were going on. And so in some ways I probably learned early on from that, I was always really interested in just how do politics work. I have a book on my bookshelves right now. I think it was written in maybe 62, at the height of the Cold War called Being an American Can Be Fun. And it explained democratic processes with these little cartoon stick figures. Have another old book like that called Where Liberty Stand Guard Stands Guard.

[A]

I think we could use updated versions of those these days.

[B]

Probably so. Probably so. I have a book of all of the presidents from George Washington up to Lyndon Johnson, and it had little charts on what was the electoral college vote, what was the popular vote for each president. I love those. I get still go back through some of those sections with a lot of familiarity. So knowing how the horse races of politics went and you know, who was running in the Primaries back in 1968 when I was 11 years old on either side, I could tell you about that. So I was aware of it. I don't think in those years that I would have felt angst over how come my church isn't talking about that. Wish that I did, but I don't think that I did.

[A]

Okay, let's jump ahead a little bit. You go to Wheaton College right here, right. A couple blocks from where I'm sitting right now. Why Wheaton? And did you consider anything else?

[B]

Nope. My mom years earlier had heard a gospel quartet back in the 1950s that featured four guys who went to Wheaton that she thought were clean cut and, and nice. And so when my sister and I were ready to go off to college, she thought Wheat would be a good place to go. And I was not intentional about that at all. Just like, well, okay, sounds fine to me. So my sister started as a sophomore and I started as a freshman. And you know, now with kids, the whole college choice for kids who go to college and families that are in that position of privilege. And so there's a lot more angst over it. You know, families in certain circles will hire advisors for their kids about where they're going to go. It was very different in those days. And I don't know if any of my friends had any kind of input like that.

[A]

I just turned 50 and it was different in my day because my youngest daughter is just about to graduate from high school and so she's been in the midst of all of that. And it is a different world, how the process looks. So, yeah, I get it. You go to Wheaton. What did you study? Or did you know what you were going to study when you came in?

[B]

When I was in high school, My senior year, I had a class in psychology that I just loved. So when I went to Wheaton, I went as a psychology major and stayed a psych major through all four years. I was honestly, as it turns out, probably more interested in the philosophical aspects of personhood and in psychology as a social science. But I stayed with it and was also, you know, very interested in biblical studies. The single most influential teacher that I had when I was at Wheaton actually was a professor of New Testament Greek by the name of Jerry Hawthorne. And he passed away about 15 years ago. But if you were to talk to Wheaton grads of a certain vintage, 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, Jerry, by dint of character, had a very, very large influence on lots and lots of folks. And I was part of a little community of people where we became really good friends with him and his colleague, Art Rupprecht. Art is still alive and kicking into his 90s. And that I also was late to the friendship game. I was really pretty lonely in middle school. Early on in high school, my sophomore year, within one week, I fell into a best friendship with a kid named Chuck Bergstrom. And we are still in constant contact. And so then when I went to Wheaton, Chuck ended up coming there also. And that circle of friends, that little community that was connected with some of those faculty, remains very formative. Five of us get together at least once every year for the better part of a week. They will actually be out here in Santa Barbara, where I'm right now, in two more weeks. So that experience of community and deep friendship was a huge gift and very formative for my life.

[A]

The fact that you stuck with psychology all the way through your time at Wheaton, I mean, anybody who's read your books or knows your teaching, well, you integrate that still to this day in a lot of what you do. So when in the process of, whether it's between psychology or biblical studies, New Testament, whatever it is you were doing, did the thought into your mind that after college, maybe I want to go into ministry?

[B]

Yeah, I would say in some ways that thought got planted a bit at Wheaton. I was mentioning Jerry Hawthorne, our New Testament Greek Prof. And I can remember times in the student union, we'd be sitting around and Jerry would talk to us and he would say, you know, some of you, you could do any number of things. You could be a doctor or a lawyer or something, but some of you should think about devoting yourself to pastoral ministry. There's a big need for it. It is a good thing to do with life. You would be able to do it. And some of you ought to give thought to that. So he challenged us very directly around that. And that always kind of stuck with me.

[A]

Whether it was from him or just the culture of Wheaton at the time. Was there a sense that those who go into pastoral ministry or cross cultural ministry or some kind of ministry vocation, that that was a higher status or a special vocation that garnered greater respect?

[B]

Yeah, there were certainly lots of different pockets at Wheaton. People are headed in different directions a little farther to the left or the right or whatever. And there would certainly be pockets, particularly real churchy pockets at Wheaton, which I wouldn't necessarily put myself in where that would be the case. It was, I think, a source of some consternation to the president of Wheaton at that time. They still had a board of people that went into foreign missions and of course, Post World War II, Jim Elliott, Nate Saint, those kind of stories, those kind of folks, those were heydays for foreign mission movements. By the time I graduated in 1979, it was much less the case. And I think that was painful for particularly some of the people that have been associated with Wheaton, Frank, for a long time. I think there would probably be some of that attached to pastoral ministry as well. So, yeah, that would be for sure a dynamic. And it probably complicated that decision for me also.

[A]

So as that decision is being formed, were you processing that at all with your family or your parents? How did they react when you started talking about your career thoughts?

[B]

Yeah, I, I would for sure talk about that with them. I, I don't think that they would have had particular guidance for me between would I go into church pastoral ministry or would I go into psychology or would I go into teaching or something like that? I don't think that they would have had a particular direction on that one way or another.

[A]

So they weren't like cheering, oh my gosh, our son's going to be a pastor. This is the greatest thing ever. But they wouldn't have been despondent had you chosen to be a therapist or a teacher?

[B]

Nope, nope, nope. I think they would have been. I think they would have been pretty open handed on it. On my mom's side of the family, there's a long history of pastors, but her dad, my grandfather, was a newspaper editor, although he was ordained in the Disciples Church. And so no, it was not. And both of my folks, eventually after me, they both ended up going on staff at a church in California. So in a sense I didn't follow their footsteps. In the ministry, they followed mine. So it was a little bit backwards. But no, on that front it felt mostly free.

[A]

So you graduate in 79. Did you go immediately to grad school or did you do something else?

[B]

No, I went right to I like school and plunged right ahead.

[A]

And that was Fuller?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So your first time out in California or at least residing in California?

[B]

Oh, yeah, no, that was my first trip to California. I had been on a plane one time in my life. I actually drove all the way out to California. Did not have a car till my second year in grad school. So I was pretty isolated. And Fuller was appealing to me because at that point I could get a Master Divinity, which is the basic degree if you're going to be ordained in ministry. But I could also get a PhD in clinical psychology. That was recognized by the American Psychological Association. And at that time, that was the only place where you could get both of those degrees from one institution at the same time.

[A]

And how many? I mean, an M. Div. I did an M. Div at Trinity. It's a three year program. Typically when you throw the PhD in there, how long did it take you?

[B]

Yeah, I had to kind of cram stuff together. It was six years.

[A]

Well, it's still. That's impressive. So this is roughly 1980. Give us for those who are especially younger and don't remember. And I was 4 years old at the time, but I remember the 80s. What was the culture like for the evangelical subculture in America at the time? What was kind of percolating in ministry world as you're in seminary and you're reading books and talking to leaders. Can you recall what the vibe was at the time?

[B]

You know, the late 70s were the years when Jimmy Carter was president and he was very forthright about his faith. And so 76 was the year of

[A]

the evangelical famous Newsweek cover.

[B]

Yeah, cover story for either Newsweek or Time. And both he and Jerry Ford, who were running, came to Wheaton to speak. So I think, you know, that was probably kind of a high watermark in the mainline church, which for so many decades, including the 50s and the 60s, had been the dominant cultural expression of Christianity. And. And had been growing, was now clearly beginning to decline. And the evangelical church was continuing to grow. I would say there was a very clear distinction then between evangelicalism and fundamentalism. And the word evangelical had not yet gotten nearly as. Negatively viewed as it has been in our day. I think that many pockets of what would have been called then the fundamentalist church over time saw that fundamentalism was Regarded quite negatively. And the word evangelical seemed to be a more friendly word. So kind of globbed onto it. You know, at that time, evangelical identity was pretty clear. Mark Noll, the historian, said you can peg the extent to which somebody was an evangelical in those days by the way they would respond to the name Billy Graham.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And Billy Graham, you know, his influence fingerprints were all over all of the parachute church organizations that tended to define the evangelical church in those days. When I went to Wheaton, you pretty much could not graduate if you were a guy unless you were able to impersonate. This is Dr. Billy Graham. I'm thrilled to be here with you today. Here in this magnificent auditorium, thousands of people gathered together. So, you know, he was a just uniquely respected person in American culture. You know, he would be pretty much every year the most admired man in America. And then the other way of identifying evangelicalism was kind of not the main line. So they had the Christian Century, we had Christianity Today. They had National Council of Churches, we had the national association of Evangelicals. And all of that has shifted a lot with the continued decline of the mainline church. That's no longer kind of like when the USSR crumbled. What's the role of NATO? What's the identity of NATO now? And then with the passing of Billy Graham, the whole sense of evangelical identity was much clearer. I think there was a lot more optimism back then. There was a sense that as a tribe, evangelicals seeking to engage in the life of the mind and the culture was kind of in ascendance now, and there wasn't nearly as much a sense of polarization.

[A]

Yeah. I've wondered if when the history books are written on the 20th century expression of evangelicalism, it's essentially going to be the lifespan of Billy Graham. And towards the end of his. He lived a very long time, but towards the end of his life is when it really began to fracture. And now it feels like just a completely shattered movement. And people forget, especially younger people who weren't around in that era, they forget. Right now, the media seems to use fundamentalists and evangelical almost interchangeably, but they were distinctly different things. And fundamentalists did not like evangelicals. And evangelicals were seen as too culturally accommodating, too accepting of academic interests and elites and all the things. So they were very, very different movements. And Billy Graham exemplified that. But that's all changed. Before we get off into that, though, let's get back to your story a little bit. So you're at Fuller for six years, getting your. Your MDIV and your doctorate. When do you make your first move into actual pastoral ministry? Local congregational ministry?

[B]

Yes, I started working part time at a church while I was at Fuller.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And that process, for folks who are just interested in the church or pastoral ministry and wonder how does that happen? Was very confusing for me. I come from a tradition where if somebody becomes a pastor, the understanding was they're supposed to have the call. And that would normally involve some experience when they would hear a voice or have a distinct impression. It couldn't be too loud of a voice because it wasn't a charismatic tradition, but it was a distinct thought, maybe through a conversation that would say you should go into pastoral ministry. And Billy Graham would have his own story about that kind of experience. We was on a golf course in Florida, and so that was generally the understanding. I never had that. What happened for me was I was going through grad school.

[C]

Don't worry, this is not the end of the episode. There's actually plenty more. But to listen to the rest, you need to be a Holy Post plus subscriber. So head over to holeypost.com skypod and sign up for just $5 a month. Not only will you get uninterrupted episodes of the Skypod, which means you'll never have to hear this dumb announcement again, but you'll also get access to everything else at Holy Post plus, including episodes of Getting Schooled by Caitlin, Chess, bonus interviews, live streams, the Holy Post Book Club, exclusive merchandise, and a whole bunch more. And you'll get the warm, fuzzy feeling of knowing that you're supporting our work of creating smart, pro neighbor Christian content. So head over to holypost.com skypod and subscribe.