← The Spiritual Hustler
The Spiritual Hustler
How Natasha Willis Generated $100M Through Instagram DMs and How You Can Too
01:14:27
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- [00:02]
A
Welcome to the Spiritual Hustler Podcast. I'm your host, Jessica Zweig, multi seven figure serial entrepreneur, best selling author and branding and business coach. And this is a show where we are redefining the word hustle, reclaiming our true feminine nature of magnetism and putting down the self judgments and shame around loving to work and making a lot of money at it. On this show, you're going to learn how to stop hustling and start spiritually hustling. By pressing play, you are now part of a new movement of women who don't hustle for money. We hustle for meaning. We don't hustle from lack. We hustle for love. We don't hustle from survival. We hustle for humanity's thriving. We hustle toward healing the ancestral programming of fear and step into a new understanding of safety in the body. To receive this shift isn't going to only heal your life, going to make you a whole lot richer too. This is the Spiritual Hustler podcast. I am so freaking excited to be with you guys today. I wish I could be with you every day, but I only come in a couple times a week and I make the most of my time with you and I hope you make the most of your time listening to this podcast. If you're new to the show, welcome. If you're not new, welcome back. I am hitting y' all hard these days with the conversations around business on the Spiritual Hustler podcast. We pretty much straddle all things magic, spirituality, consciousness, quantum mechanics, astrology, feng shui, akashic records, microdosing mushrooms, plant medicine, you name it, we cover it here. But we also talk about all things business in the same breath. Because. Because we will only grow our businesses to the extent of which we grow our souls and our capacity and our nervous systems to hold our expansion and to hold our wealth and to hold our impact. They are not mutually exclusive. If you didn't get the memo and if you've been here a minute, you already know that. If you're new, you're gonna know that. And I had probably some of the brightest, biggest, most profitable and successful female entrepreneurs in my home a couple weeks ago for a beautiful that was co hosted with my guest today, Natasha Willis. And one thing I just want to say, I mean, I had Jasmine Starr, I had Amy Porterfield, Julie Solomon, Adley Kinsman, Maria went Jamie C. The names could go on and on and it was really just the most beautiful day for so many reasons. I cannot encourage you enough no matter where you live, who's your community who's in your network to get together in person, talk shop, share codes, don't gatekeep, help each other out, make introductions, make connections. That is the spirit of sisterhood. It is the spirit of the female entrepreneurs that are winning today. It is the biggest cheat code to success. Find your women, keep them close, create reciprocity and generosity where everyone gets to win. There is no less audience, community, clients in the market because someone else is getting clients, community and audience in the market. That's just such a projection and a story. And the more that we can really link arms and rise together, the more we all win. That is the new paradigm of divine feminine leadership today. I actually worked with Natasha a couple years ago. I hired her company, School of Bots, which is a world class marketing agency that specializes in social media direct response. In the dms, you know when you leave a comment on someone's Instagram post, like someone says comment money. And then you get a DM in your Instagram with a link that takes you into their world, that signs you up for their webinar, that then brings you into their program. That's what Natasha's School of Bots has mastered. Her company has generated over $97 million in revenue for her clients who include Cody Sanchez, Jenna Kutcher, Amy Porterfield, Russell Branson, Dean Graziosi, Nike, Mindvalley and 3,000 more clients. They triple client revenue from short form content within 90 days and then help scale it month over month. Their clients on average are with schoolbots for 12 months more than regular marketing firms. Okay. She's been featured in over 300 publications including Forbes, Entrepreneur and Inc. The clients she manages range from people with 20,000 followers to 60 million followers. And really her mastery is in what's really working on Meta and TikTok and YouTube and Snapchat and LinkedIn and all of them. This woman that you're about to learn from today is at the tip of the spear in the industry and we became friends over the last few years and it was Natasha's vision to host this event because like every woman I bring onto my podcast, she operates in the spirit of generosity, education, empowerment, transparency. In any stage of your social media growth, you have to learn the power of ManyChat, you have to learn the power of automations. Because we're not using social media anymore just exclusively to build brand and grow community. We're using it to sell and we shouldn't feel weird about that. Everyone's doing it. If you're going to play the game Play it to win. And I cannot tell you from the bottom of my heart the gift that you're about to get today. By learning from Natasha herself, you're going to learn her story, you're going to learn about her business, you're going to learn of what's working real time more than you'll hear it anywhere else. And I also just want to say that if you're not in a place in your business to hire an agency like School of Bots, she does have a coaching program that any brand selling on Instagram can benefit from. This is the program that I used. I jumped into her done with you cohort, learned all of the tools and tactics and methodology and skills, and within less than six months time, I had scaled ffbs to a seven figure program. That is the magic of her codes. Now, if you can't join her cohorts, don't worry about it. Natasha gives away some of the best insights and advice and expert strategies for free on her Instagram. So I am going to encourage you to take a first step, listen to this podcast the whole way through and boss up on your social media game starting today. This is honestly one of the most informative conversations I've ever had on social media on my podcast ever. And that is saying a lot because y' all know how much I love social and how much we talk about brand and building an audience and a true community here. But to take it to the next level so that your Instagram followers or your Facebook followers or any followers you have on your social media platforms translates to revenue, and that's what we're all here to do. You have come to the right place. So without further ado, here is my amazing conversation with the phenomenal Natasha Willis. I am like, every time I'm with you, I feel so blessed. Thank you for being here.
- [07:28]
B
Thank you so much for having me. And your home is freaking amazing. So it's so much fun to be here the day before. We get to also co host something special of our own. It feels like this baby we've been, like, waiting to bring into the world.
- [07:41]
A
You were like, let's do this in April and September. I was like, that's so far away. Now it's here tomorrow. Thank you for, like, taking the space to and time to to sit with me in this podcast community. Like, the women that listen to the show are really, really hungry for your codes and you've got so many. I'm not trying to blow smoke, I'm throwing flowers. You're one of the smartest people I've ever met.
- [08:03]
B
That is so kind. I don't even have words to say I. Thank you.
- [08:06]
A
Really wish I could be in your brain for like, a day. I don't know if I could handle it.
- [08:11]
B
It's a lot sometimes.
- [08:13]
A
But there's really something to be said about what you have accomplished with School of Bots. It's something that, like, has really changed the face of so many people's lives. I mean, we're all in this world where we're living on social media. We're using it as a vehicle to grow our dreams, grow our revenue, grow our impact, grow our legacy. And you have really cracked the code on how to do that. And I want to get really tactical with you today. I want to dig into all of the strategies, your brilliance. But before we do, I actually would love for. For you to kind of go back, because School of Bots has, like, had an insane rise in the last few years. But take me back. Cause I think you were a nomad.
- [08:54]
B
You.
- [08:55]
A
You and your husband were like, living all over the world, scraping pennies together. I mean, you're an og spiritual hustler, babe. Like, you are the epitome of a spiritual hustler. And before we get into, like, the riches of your work, let's maybe go back to, like, the rags.
- [09:10]
B
Yeah, I love it. The tldr, while still, like, inserting some juicy detail, is that when I was, I think, about 17, I read the four hour workweek by Tim Ferriss. And if anybody knows that book, like, gosh, I need to reread it now because it's kind of one of those works of art or, you know, where you come back to it and you're like, wow, I am taking so many things differently than I did in that season of life. I should move abroad and start this business at the same time.
- [09:36]
A
17?
- [09:37]
B
Yes. Although I didn't do it until I was 19. But I read the book and I was like, this is amazing. And so anyways, I enroll into college and I got about 200 grand in scholarships. And so I was really determined to not be in debt when it to college. And I went to the most expensive school at the time, which was the University of Southern California in la. And so I get there and I'm like, you know, I don't come from much. I think my mom made like 20 to 40 grand a year, like, growing up. And so we still luckily, like, had a home and we lived in a nice area. And so, like, there was a lot of wealth around and I learned a lot through that process. And so anyways, I go to college and then I'm about six months in and I go, this is just not for me. I think I'm like too brainwashed already to be anti college, that I just can't be here. And this just feels like a waste of time and everyone's just partying and, you know, not thinking about what's next. And so I just had this, like, feeling deep inside that I need to go and make something of myself and I need to start to build wealth for my family. And I want to essentially just like make myself and my father proud, who passed away when I was 7. And one of the things my mom shared with me later about him was that he had said, I don't want to die an employee. Like, I want to make sure that I'm an entrepreneur by the time I pass. And so his passing happened very quickly because he was diagnosed, like, and then six months later he passed away. But I don't remember like, too, too much of it. It's just these like little bits of information I got later as I was going into adulthood, I'm like, wow, maybe that's where like is somehow DNA, you know, or universally like, just within me. So anyways, at that point, then I'm six months into college and so I decide I'm gonna take a leave of absence because it was just the cleanest way to do it instead of having to do a bunch of paperwork. And so I decided to leave. And my boyfriend at the time, Kyle, now hu, he was like, well, this sounds like a, you know, great idea. You're gonna start this marketing agency. I've done marketing. Like, we should do something together. And he was either gonna go pursue his own thing or essentially we would join forces. So we ended up deciding to join forces. We started our business and then we thought, well, we should get away from everybody that we know and all the familiarity in our lives and just go and essentially pursue this in a new environment. And we lived in like central California for about three months, and then we went to Hong Kong, Japan, Malaysia, Thailand, Australia and Mexico. And that was over like a year and a half. And so that first year was absolutely insane because we removed all stability from our lives, right? It was like no one local that we know. Sometimes even the language, you know, you're in a new environment. So it's like, where am I going to work out? Where am I going to eat? Like, all the different things, right? And so it was very identity forming. And I think as soon as we came back to the states, we realized, like, maybe we shouldn't have left and we should have, like, maintained a pillar of stability so then we could really work on the business, because then otherwise I was so distracted and pulled in all these directions. So the first year we went from zero to a hundred K in revenue, which was like, good proof of concept. Right. And I was like, we can do so much more. And then we ended up moving to San Diego, California. And I've always had a love for speaking. And so I thought, okay, well, there's all these marketing events, like, we should go to these events and I should try to speak and get clients. And that's exactly what ended up happening. And just like serendipitously, the first mastermind I went to, which I got into for free because a friend invited me, it was, I think admission at the time was like 60k a year. Yeah. So like, okay. And this is where all the OGs of like the Marketing World were. And some of them were the hosts of some of the biggest conferences in San Diego at the time. Like Traffic and Conversion Summit was like a massive one that you probably know of. I think it was like 10,000 or 20,000 people at its peak. And so I spoke there, I spoke at Social Media Marketing World, which was another one. And so all these opportunities then made me realize, like, wow, that is something that I really need to, like, pour more energy and effort into.
- [13:26]
A
And you were how old by this time?
- [13:27]
B
I was 20. I think I had just turned 21 when I did my talk. Yeah, like that same month. Okay. Yeah. So it was. It was still a young time and I was still figuring a lot of stuff out. And so ultimately, anyways, fast forward, you know, this business was really my, like, college education. I feel like you don't learn how
- [13:47]
A
to run a business in college. You learn how to run a business by running a business.
- [13:50]
B
Yeah. And then on top of that, it's like my now husband and I moved in together, started the business together, and moved away, you know, all kind of at the same time. So I feel like I also got this whole education in like, relationship dynamics and like, who I want to be. And so it's been very, very formative. But it's an interesting time to be at where I am now because I feel like all that experience now is aggregated and I know exactly what I need to do anything I want to in life.
- [14:14]
A
Clearly you're unstoppable and you're just getting started. I mean, we're going to talk about your business as it stands right now. And it's insanely impressive. And you are really in a category of one in my view. And I've been around the block in marketing agencies for quite some time. You started as a, a marketing agency. What was the sort of decision point that made you go this deep into social media, specifically meta, working with the ManyChat function. Like how did that all evolve?
- [14:44]
B
Yeah, so in 2016 was when they opened up the funct functionality to use the DMS as a place to actually conduct business and like talk to consumers essentially, or B2B as well. And so when Facebook opened that up in 2016, it was like this portal of okay, well now we can talk to people here instead of email or their websites, which was the default prior to that. And so from there, Kyle and I had watched that presentation and we had a couple of friends who were like starting to explore the technology kind of like now where it's like, okay, everyone's talking about AI or when crypto came around, right. It's like, okay, everyone's talking about crypto, like what is this? And so it kind of felt, felt similar where it's like this new technology. How are people going to use it? We don't know yet. It's kind of in its fart app phase.
- [15:26]
A
Yeah.
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B
It's like it's not useful enough yet, but it's going to be. And so we just bet like everything on that idea and decided from the get go that we were going to help businesses with this. So that was like truly from the beginning we've been doing only that and just spending all of our, you know, waking hours essentially trying to deepen the understanding of how to get the best results with it.
- [15:46]
A
And you've cracked that code. I mean I had this like aha moment before I met you. Like social media.
- [15:52]
B
Yeah.
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A
Let's pray it doesn't get so co opted by AI because it's the place to connect human to human. Like there is no third wall.
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B
Absolutely.
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A
You can reach into influencers, celebrities, CEOs, like with the function of a direct message.
- [16:08]
B
Yeah.
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A
And that's really become the cornerstone to scale. If you're building an online business, it's all about the DMs. And you've driven 97 million.
- [16:21]
B
You just crossed 100 million. So this is good timing. Yeah. You just crossed a hundred million dollars in sales generated purely from the DMs
- [16:29]
A
across all of your clients, which is insane. $100 million for your clients in your business through the power of conversation in the DMs.
- [16:40]
B
Beautifully said.
- [16:41]
A
Insane. Let's can we like to get into this because it's such a big number and it's so aspirational. But like anyone at any stage needs to learn this 100 I learn from you every day. I just want you to know that I follow your Instagram. Everyone needs to go follow Natasha right now. I'll put it in the show notes. Obviously you provide so many free resources. You're so generous with your knowledge. I will take your tools and I will like upload them into Claude and be like, follow this script. And I have such a huge success in my like story strategy for FFPs.
- [17:12]
B
Yes.
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A
Things that I learned from you.
- [17:14]
B
That makes me so happy.
- [17:15]
A
It's true. So there's a difference between content that scales and gets reach and content that monetizes. Like what is the journey? What is the advice that you. If someone's like, how do I take all this content that I'm creating and it's getting views and it's getting traction, but your real message is like turning the scroll into sales. So what is the first thing that you coach your clients on looking at when it comes to their content strategy?
- [17:44]
B
Yeah. So whether you have just you working on your own content or you've got even multiple team members or a whole maybe multiple agencies, like whoever you're working with, essentially you can apply everything that we're going to talk about. So the first most important thing is that you want to make sure that you are first of all posting as often as you can. And so with the call to actions, we used to think, okay, we should not put them in every single post, every single story, because that would dilute maybe the effectiveness of it or kind of burn out, you know, your audience, quote unquote. And that was actually what the data told us. However, in 2025, like mid-2025, this shifted completely. And what we're seeing now is that overall for the month, if we just look on like a monthly basis, we get so many more leads and so much more revenue. Usually 2 to like 3.5x is what we've been able to measure if we have a call to action in every single post. Now that doesn't mean that you need to say the call to action in every single video, but it means that you have it somewhere in the caption, like at minimum. And so we can kind of start there and then move into stories. Cuz they're a little bit of their own world. Yeah.
- [18:45]
A
And break down manychat as you go.
- [18:47]
B
Yeah, absolutely. If anybody's not familiar with manychat, it is a software that allows you to connect like a CRM, like email platform almost to your dm. So you can think of it like, hey, I'm sending out these emails, but they're DMS instead.
- [19:00]
A
It's like what you see when someone's like, comment money and I'll send you my free download. And then you get the DM from that account that's like, hey, what's your name? Name email. Then you're growing your. I think I've grown my email list BY like, like 10,000 people in the last few years since I met you. You know, it's such a powerful strategy. So you see it everywhere on social media. That is the ManyChat function. That's like 15amonth.
- [19:24]
B
Yep.
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A
And it can change the course of your entire business. Continue.
- [19:28]
B
100. Yeah, thank you for doing that. Because I was recently on another show where it's like, okay, no one knows what this is. Like, I need to. Yeah, I'm just so in my own world sometimes.
- [19:36]
A
Right.
- [19:37]
B
So, yeah, anything like that we can break down. It will to make sure that we do along the way. But to come back to the posting strategy, so very first thing that we do is we look at, okay, how do we, like, make sure we have enough traffic? Um, and so if you are not already posting at least a couple times a week, which could be at bare minimum four times a week on your feed, first focus on that. Because the ManyChat automations are really helpful to have alongside that. But if you are low on like time and resources right now, the best thing to do is like, first increase visibility and then you can add that in. But if you're already there, then that's a great time to say, okay, we're gonna put a call to action every post. Ideally, you do want to be saying it in your videos where you can, but that doesn't need to be every single time. Like, if you, let's say, had seven posts for the week, at least four of them should have the call to action in the video itself. Like you saying it in. The call to action specifically is follow me, then comment.
- [20:26]
A
And that changed.
- [20:27]
B
It did change in 2025 for us. And the reason why that changed was because I can't remember exactly why we started to test it, but we started to test it on a bunch of different accounts. And like, two examples I'll give you super quick is one was our client Dan Go, and at day 30 of us doing this, he gained 200,000 followers. And we by like month four had 91,000 new email subs. Holy shit. And a lot of revenue behind the scenes also through that process. And so it's like, okay, that worked. And then we tested it with somebody else. And he also started to grow. He went from 30k new followers the first month that we worked with him to 60k to then 90k. So by month 3, he was like way, way higher. And I'm not saying that like just by implementing that, you know that's gonna happen because you do need to have a good content and B, like cons volume, which is the most important thing. But if you start to use this, then it actually not only helps you with the followers, but it also helps you with being able to get the DMs into people's DMs more effectively so it doesn't get stuck in what's called the message request.
- [21:27]
A
Totally. Essentially like three different inboxes in your dm, you have your primary, you have your requests, and you have your general. And if someone's not following you, they're not going to get your message and their primary account. I actually learned the hard way when we first launched FFBs under your guidance, I had a post go viral. We also boosted it. I remember. Yeah, I mean like thousands of comments. I was promoting my book the Light Work. I had this big event888 with like Michael Beckwith and Coyote Page. I just implemented your School of Bots method.
- [22:00]
B
Yeah, it was brand new.
- [22:01]
A
We'll talk about. It was brand new. And it was just comment x vs follow me and comment X. And here's one thing I would just love to remind everyone listening. I think, like, we need to be so explicit with like what our audience wants us, what we want our audiences to do. It's kind of like the caveman theory, like grunt. Like it has to be so obvious and so forward. And people respond like, if you don't tell them what to do, they're not going to know to do it. So follow me and comment. You saw in just that tweak in 2025amassive uptick in revenue for your clients.
- [22:37]
B
Yeah, revenue because of the deliverability of it. Because ultimately, one thing that we didn't talk about, to go back to the fundamentals, is that one of the easier ways to think about, like, why this is such a critical move for your business to make is that the landing page or the website has been the conversion vehicle up until this point. On the Internet, right from social, you say, hey, get people to my website. And then they will buy something or they will become a lead. And once we started to use the dms, the DMS actually became the conversion vehicle. Because now what you want to do is instead of let me get thousands and thousands of views on my website page, you want to get thousands and thousands of dms. And that's what we can dive deeper into too, is like, okay, well how do you do that? Because if you're just speaking to people who already know who you are, then it's very easy for you to get like a hundred people, maybe max in your DMs each week versus if you can go much wider and you can filter those people out in your DMs, but you just get so much more volume if you can speak to more people, larger. Yeah.
- [23:32]
A
And that's what everyone wants, right?
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B
So. Well, it's what they think they want until they have to do it.
- [23:37]
A
Yeah.
- [23:37]
B
And we can talk more about that too, because actually about that. So I have wanted to do YouTube for the longest time and I finally like hired an agency to help me with it back in September. And it has been like the hardest thing that I have done, mindset wise, I think, ever in my business because I'm constantly fighting myself and trying to find my voice at the same time. And so, for example, in order to like get millions of views on YouTube, you have to talk about these mass market topics. So it might be how to make money, blah, blah, blah, how I did this with money, blah, blah, blah. Just these very large, like total addressable market topics. And that's not always gonna like resonate with you as a brand or you may need to figure out how you want to speak to it, I was like, every time they'd give me a video where it's like, here's how to make your first 10k, I was like, I literally cannot do this video. And it was so difficult for me to like get to that point and be like, I'm just not gonna do that. But I can talk about how you can scale a product that you have right now and then let's talk about the stages that, you know, exist through that process. So it's about the framing, but that's one thing that I think almost nobody talks about. But in order to get the view as you want, you do have to go a lot larger.
- [24:43]
A
Can we stay on this for a second? Because it's such an important topic for everyone listening because we can be a little too precious about our brands. And hi, I ran a personal branding agency for seven Years where it was like the crown jewel and it was. Everything came down to brand. And what happens when we stay too close to our brand is we talk to our own bottom of the funnel echo chamber all the time. And while that's great, and those will be your initial adopters in your first conversions and your, your client base, if you want to scale, you kind of have to be less precious about your brand. And I'll just use myself as an example. Like I have gone wider on. I use Instagram primarily.
- [25:23]
B
Yeah.
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A
And I am doing dumb, but I
- [25:27]
B
love it by the way.
- [25:29]
A
Thank you.
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B
I'm happy it feels very you.
- [25:31]
A
Thank you. And it's been a bit of like, obviously testing and learning of what feels wide, but still on brand and still on the spokes. It's a sweet spot. And you just have to, to not give a exact. You just have to like continue to play, continue to experiment. I've had the reels that I thought would like go nowhere, like popped off and went viral and the reels that I worked hours to perfect go nowhere. But it's less about like which reel and just understanding when you're creating content. Where in the funnel are you speaking? Top of funnel is wide reach. Middle of the funnel is education. Like you're bringing people into your world. And bottom of the funnel is like you get to be all Natasha's brainiac, I get to be Jessica's wife. W. I get to speak my own language to my people who are gonna love no matter what I post. But if we stay there, we're not gonna scale. And I think having that vantage point while you implement a tool like ManyChat 100%, it's 1 plus 1 equals 3. So with all of this in mind, what is the ideal posting strategy when it comes to implementing the DM component? Getting people into your actual world?
- [26:37]
B
Yeah. One easy framework people can use is if you're already posting more than three times a day or three plus, then you want to be putting it in every single post if you. Because it's going to give you more shots on goal. So in other words, as Instagram is, it's almost like run more ads than less ads for the people who understand paid traffic or like just in general. Like the more stuff you put out there, the better and more non followers are seeing your posts continuously as Instagram's moving towards the interest graph. Just like TikTok has. Right where TikTok is way in that direction though so much so to where. Where a lot of people, like for example, our clients who might have 3 million followers on TikTok and only a million on Instagram. Instagram is still 70% of their revenue. And the reason why is because they can't reach the people on TikTok predictably and sustainably. And they keep posting there and it's bringing in traffic, but it's not predictable enough. Whereas Instagram, you're still getting some of the follower reach, especially with things like stories. And so that helps a lot. So to go back to that, if you're three plus times a day posting, then put it in every single post caption at minimum. And then if you are less than three times a day, so one or two or a couple times a week, then do it every other post.
- [27:46]
A
Got it. And when it comes to types of posts, messaging style, carousels versus reels, can we break all of that down? And what seems to be because you're so up to date with like data and trends, what seems to be the most high converting content right now?
- [28:01]
B
Yeah, there's only one account that I have seen actually a friend of ours, I won't name her just in case she doesn't want her metrics out there, but she was with us a couple months back at a party party and she showed us her Instagram and she gets 60 million views a month and is the like category of one in her space. She is the only person I have seen have carousels consistently that reached 97% non followers. Most accounts almost. Actually every other account, sorry, not even most. Only reach about 3% non followers and it's 97% followers for carousels. So carousels are great for conversion, for converting, kind of retargeting almost in that way. And so a great carousel strategy is take a reel that did really well and just turn it into a carousel and even do that multiple times with different angles and that will help convert people more who are already following you. But then for reals, that's where you're really going to get the most audience growth and also reach even conversions too for like people who are cold but they really need help with the thing that you do and so they're just going to convert from the first post.
- [29:00]
A
Anyways, what are your thoughts on talking heads versus B roll?
- [29:05]
B
Oh my gosh, I have so many
- [29:06]
A
thoughts I want that I haven't talked
- [29:08]
B
about like anywhere because I wasn't sure if this was the case in this. Now it's for sure the case. So we have a couple of clients who got very like used to doing B roll reels when they were really popping off in like 2023, in 2024. And so they kept trying to like run that strategy, but now, because we're in this space where there's so much content now being flooded into the feeds, there's just a lot more supply than demand versus before when there was more demand than supply because of that, plus all the AI things that are going on, plus people like trying to increase their content volume. So B roll reels are just not performing well.
- [29:42]
A
I know.
- [29:43]
B
Easy and annoying and they don't go anywhere. Now, I will say if you are willing to be really freaking controversial or polarizing in them, then they will do very well. Like one of our clients, her first hundred K, who has made over $5 million from her DMS, collected over 500,000 email subs. We've been working with her for almost three years. She's a badass. Yeah, she's a badass. And her B roll reels from three years ago, she still reposts them and they still get millions of views, like when she reposts them. But she is very, just like very opinionated. Right. And like wanting to really speak deeply. Whereas a lot of people are not willing to be that bold sometimes in their content. And so B roll reels are usually not the move because a lot of the time people lean on them as a crutch and they're not willing to do talking heads. But talking heads are the thing, like, if you never heard someone's voice, like,
- [30:28]
A
how would you buy?
- [30:30]
B
How can you expect to. For them to have made a connection with you and want to buy.
- [30:33]
A
Correct.
- [30:33]
B
And so that's really the biggest premise is like, if anyone takes anything away from what I just said, it is simply, simply that if they don't hear you speak, then their likelihood of buying is much lower.
- [30:42]
A
I could not agree more. Now let's take. Can we triple click into the talking heads piece?
- [30:45]
B
Yes.
- [30:46]
A
Because do you have a data or point of view on the ideal style of a talking head? Like, we all know the hook, but like, is there a certain length, Is there certain angles that work settings? I mean we all know authentic content, like works the best, but what have you seen performing the best when it comes to talking heads?
- [31:04]
B
Yeah. So I will say the thing that, like if I look at some of our top posts, so the Highest one has 220, 20,000 comments on it. And the lowest that I'm thinking about in this current realm has 26,000 comments on it. And so all of them are talking head about 60 seconds and they get to the point very, very quickly. Right. And the whole thing is to get people into the specific offer that we're going to give them at the end, which is typically a free download. And so if you can frame your content around that and make sure there's a really strong bridge between the concept and then what they're going to get, then that is what allows first of all, like making sure it's a good piece of content and then getting just like insane conversion rate on that post. And now not every post can be a banger like that. It's just not going to happen. But I will say that our clients, like Dan Go, who I was mentioning is an example, like depending on when you listen to this. Right. Maybe the content strategy has shifted. But like his talking heads still do really, really well. And all of our clients who also do talking head in that style where it's edited, they're speaking to the camera either casually or production, like higher production. It's still the best one. It's 60 seconds leads directly to the offer.
- [32:08]
A
I always want to add because I, I know my community, they're listening. Like some of them are. I call them my hiders.
- [32:13]
B
Yeah.
- [32:13]
A
They're like, I don't want to show my face or getting more used to it. I will tell you that my ads team, when I was in all my launch seasons were like, jessica, you have to do talking heads. I was like, you guys. Like, I like talking heads are so heavy. They're so. I don't know what to do.
- [32:26]
B
I don't feel like a lot. Yeah.
- [32:28]
A
But I've hacked it and it's practice and it's putting in your reps.
- [32:31]
B
Exactly. And not giving a fuck and not giving a. That's honestly the biggest thing.
- [32:35]
A
Seriously, if you have a random thought, pop open your computer or pop open your phone and just start riffing, even if it's like two minutes, Send it to your editing team or like cut it down yourself. Find the extracted best 30, 60 seconds. To try and not be so polished is like the magic of it. I also found a hack. I'm sure you already know this. Cap Cut the app.
- [32:54]
B
The teleprompter.
- [32:55]
A
The teleprompter. So I script them on yes AI and I make them my own. I mean, the more you do them, the more your audience gets to know you and actually comes to. To expect to learn from you directly. And they do make the biggest freaking difference every time I post them. I get way more engagement these days than any of the other things that I'm Sharing is my talking heads. Aside from like my ridiculous like woo woo video dancing like an idiot. I want to go back to manychat. Yes. Because School of Bots has really fucking cracked the code on it. Like we've all gotten like comment money and then you get like a single dm. Here's the download. At least I've seen that. I'm like, where's the voice?
- [33:38]
B
Most of them, it's about 90%.
- [33:39]
A
Yes.
- [33:40]
B
Yeah.
- [33:40]
A
My question is twofold. How did you kind of come up with the methodology? Like where did that come from inside of your own business? And then second question, what is the process? What is the methodology?
- [33:53]
B
Yeah, yeah. So we came to it, I think it was like really early on. One of our first clients, mindvalley, who is pretty much the number one personal development company in the world, if anyone's not familiar. And I think at this point they're doing like 150 million a year. They've always had a really impressive business content wise and really cracked the code on like evergreen webinars leading into a course slash membership sale. And so early on we built like 200 plus funnels for them in Facebook and then in Instagram when we were beta testing it. And we had a lot of different like types of clients at the time, primarily who were in the information space. And so we gathered a lot of good industry data, but them specifically, I just remember that because we were doing the same thing over and over, like 200 times also across four different languages. We just got some really good data where I was like, huh? Like this formula works really freaking well to capture 80 to 90% of people's emails to actually get them to click to the next step. Like we've got a really high like 90% sometimes completion rate on these funnels and we need to really like study that and reverse engineer that. So I remember that was one of the many examples that we pulled from to ultimately decide, okay, let's standardize this and like create all these different playbooks. And so now we have 30 different playbooks that we run and are constantly updating for everything. Right. It's like I just mentioned a webinar. There's six different webinar playbooks that we have, like depending on how you're going to do the webinar. And is it live? Is it evergreen? Like what type of evergreen? What type of live? How many? So anyways, that's how we ultimately came to it is at this point we've sent over 400 million DMs on Instagram and so there's a lot of data that we've been able to pull from. And that is just like one of those earlier moments that really helped us be able to do the same thing over and over again so many times that we were able to, you know, find the formula. Yes, yeah, exactly.
- [35:38]
A
Okay, so what's the formula?
- [35:40]
B
And so formula wise, if we look at just like overall I think it'd be helpful. What use case do you think would be most useful for people? Like, cause you have a number of different funnels, you're kind of familiar with what we do.
- [35:49]
A
Like let's use your audience, let's use FFBs.
- [35:51]
B
Okay.
- [35:52]
A
I mean so I go through my high ticket launches twice a year. They're live launches, they're consolidated in like a, a lead up and then an open cart to close cart in a matter of, of like six days where I make the majority of my revenue for the year in six days. I mean so much of it is
- [36:07]
B
on Instagram and is it webinar or are you doing.
- [36:10]
A
It's a three day master class. It's a free three day event that leads into a high ticket program.
- [36:15]
B
Yeah.
- [36:16]
A
So I learned from you. I mean back to brand knowing your voice.
- [36:21]
B
Yes.
- [36:22]
A
And like really backing up even before you launch anything. This is a long game. There is no hack. As I say all the time. You have to build community, you have to build relationship with your audience, you have to offer value, nurture those relationships. I don't love the word followers. I believe in community. You've got to really cultivate that. So by the time you ask them into something free or low ticket or high ticket or whatever it is, they feel indebted to you in a way that they've trusted you. And so what I loved learning from you is if I'm going to use like you know, comment FFBs or comment wealth or comment fire because I did a whole thing with the Fire horse recently.
- [37:03]
B
Yes.
- [37:03]
A
They're getting, I was so successful, so big. They're gonna get an instant DM from me that feels like me. I write my own copy. Like it's not like it's a bot, but it's not, it's me. And you have a very clear point of view on how the language, the emoji, the capitalization, the continual dialogue is formulated. That's all your methodology, Natasha, that like we implement all the time. So can you kind of break down the science of it?
- [37:34]
B
Yeah, I love that example. I think the free webinar or like the challenge aspect, the multi day Masterclass, Sorry, goodness. All the different words.
- [37:41]
A
Yeah, same, same.
- [37:43]
B
So they're all different playbooks, but like, you know, one in the same, right? It's like you being able to go live and share an experience. So let's say signing people up for something like that, then typically what we want to do is we don't want to drag out the conversation so much to where someone's like, all right, this is not worth my time. Like, this is way too much work. Um, but at the same time, we also want to give people multiple touch points so that they feel like they're building a little bit of a relationship with you. And so first message typically, is all about permission based marketing, which is a great, like, framework and actually book from Seth Godin, which is one of the most incredible marketing authors. And yeah, he truly is the sweetest. And that concept is essentially just like, hey, just confirming you still want access to XYZ thing. Or hey, sounds like you're ready to do XYZ thing. So those are usually two copy frames that work really well for the hook for a great open rate, which we want to see at least 70 to 80%. And then we want at least 50% of people to click on the button to go to the next stage. Just like high level. That's like baseline status. So once they say, yes, I'm in, then we go, okay, awesome. What email do you want to use to register? And then from there, great. Just so I don't mix you up with anybody. What's your first name? And then at that point, depending on the experience, you might either have an upsell, maybe for a VIP experience. I'm not saying that's exactly what you do, but that's like a version of it, right? Another version might be awesome. Like, you're in voice note, quick selfie, video, gif, whatever feels aligned for your brand, bunch of emojis, 10 exclamation points, whatever, and then going, here's your next steps. And then the next steps might be add this to your calendar, join this community, whatever we can do to like, get people engaged. And the reason why we want to do that there is because we will get the most amount of people taking action right then and there. So we want to get 50 or more of them. Like add it to my calendar, join maybe a Facebook group or a school community or whatever to make sure that I'm ready to go for this thing.
- [39:33]
A
Can I just add something that I just came to me as you're listening, you're probably thinking to my community listening like, like, oh, I get those all the time. Or like now I understand how this is being engineered and I would love to just invite everyone who is sort of on the consumer side. I mean, I'm hoping you're taking notes as the creators, but that this is like the time and energy that online entrepreneurs or any business owner ideally should be putting into their customer experience.
- [40:03]
B
Yeah.
- [40:03]
A
Really understanding who they are, wanting them to feel seen, wanting them to feel human, even if they're a bot that's doing the work for them.
- [40:11]
B
Totally.
- [40:12]
A
It's the amount of attention and detail and love. At least this is my vibration when I'm building out my funnels. It's like I want them to sound like me. And you mentioned like pre recorded videos and audio notes, which is a part of your methodology as well, where if like someone ignores your DM, you can set it where in like four hours.
- [40:30]
B
Yes.
- [40:31]
A
You get a follow up message. In 24 hours you get another follow up message if they haven't replied. And you can add in to the DM funnel a video or an audio to make it feel personal, which is genius. Like I'll speak for myself when I'm recording those videos and I'm recording those audios, I am tuning into the woman that's receiving that because she resonated clearly enough with me to follow me, to click the button to come into the DMs owe her that level of care and attention. And what you do is layer on the mechanics of the science and the psychology because that's marketing with the depth of the brand. And you really trained me on like how to make it sound like me every time. And it does and it's working.
- [41:16]
B
Yeah.
- [41:18]
A
You know, so take Pages as a creator and a consumer as you're listening to this, because what you're doing is like working. So much so that you've driven a hundred million dollars of revenue into people's businesses, which is insane. And you work with clients of all different sizes.
- [41:34]
B
Yeah, actually no, it was always kind of mixed initially, but we, we eventually went deep into the information space. So meaning if you sell courses, coaching programs, like any kind of digitally delivered product, that is now our like primary focus. But we do still have some enterprise. And then we have had about, I think 30 of our total clients have been E commerce stores. So who sell a physical product, which is a different playbook, different strategy. But I will say everything we talked about so far can absolutely still be applied to them. Like if you're listening to this and you're like, I Maybe don't sell a coach program. I have services or E commerce or I'm an agent of some kind. So it's all for us.
- [42:11]
A
All.
- [42:11]
B
Yeah.
- [42:12]
A
How do you feel? I mean, with the adoption of AI being so now wide reaching, it's crazy to see all the AI content that we're seeing in the feed. What are your thoughts on this tool and how it's going to impact the way online entrepreneurs market on social.
- [42:30]
B
Yeah. When you say tool, are you talking about AI, like as a whole?
- [42:33]
A
As a whole. And then we can dig into specific tools because I know you use them, you've got a great perspective. But let's start with the broader question.
- [42:40]
B
Yeah. Well, you mentioned earlier that like we were talking about talking heads. Right. And how that really helps you connect to people. More so than ever, we're seeing the rise of that content of the app, you know, essentially, as, you know, the trendy call it, where that is actually the most raw form of content and hence why it's doing like, better than ever before is because it makes you feel like it's an actual human. Yes. AI can replicate, you know, pretty much anything. But the whole point is, like, your brand is yours to protect. Nobody else can do it exactly like you. Even if AI goes and like copies your likeness, like it still came from you. And so I think that there is both comfort and also, like inspiration in that to know that, hey, if I just hop on camera and like start to put in the reps enough so that I give less of a fuck every single time, then the game, my business will inevitably grow.
- [43:30]
A
Yeah.
- [43:30]
B
Or whatever outcome you want from it. Maybe it is just making an impact. And I feel like it's the same AI.
- [43:36]
A
I don't know know if you caught this. I mean, you're way closer to the platforms than I am. But it was over the holiday break of 2025.
- [43:43]
B
Yeah.
- [43:43]
A
Where I took like two weeks off and was like a sloth with my husband watching tv, scrolling, and I was like, why does Instagram feel like it's just popped in Adderall? Like there's so much content. Like, obviously AI, everyone is using it. And I think that it's a really important tool to train on your brand, your voice, to help you create capture options, scripts, hooks, the whole thing. But you have to work it and you have to feed it absolutely. Your avatars, your best original content. Like I uploaded my entire book, the light work into it.
- [44:15]
B
Awesome.
- [44:16]
A
So it knows.
- [44:18]
B
Yes.
- [44:18]
A
And then all of the analyzation of our audiences and our avatars that we do as a marketing department. So it knows who I am talking to. So when I come up with, like, hey, I want to talk about, about, I don't know why PMS needs a rebrand because so many of my women are like, you know, going through this phase. And I teach a lot about this power of menstrual cycle and how to, like, build your business around your feminine body. It can spit out a script that sounds just like me, but at the end of the day, even though it was written by AI, it's being delivered by you. Right. And you can't replicate that. Are there any specific tools that you really love of in this world of social that you feel are really helping scale, sharpen, refine content that is leading into revenue?
- [45:04]
B
Yeah. I think there's two angles we can look at this from. It's either I want to get more of the content I'm already creating out into the world, or I need to create more content. So if you are in the camp of I'm already creating, one of the easiest ways that you can amplify is simply by auto posting on every single platform. And so an example of that, there's a couple different platforms you can do it with. Um, Blotato is one as an example. It's got a funny name, but it's a great platform.
- [45:31]
A
They all have funny names.
- [45:32]
B
They do. And that one was created by a content creator who has amassed, I think, millions of followers at this point. Sabrina Romanov. Hopefully I'm saying her last name correctly. But that tool's great because you can literally just pop in there. And in fact, if you want to get a little more technical, you could build what we have done, which is that. And it's much more complex than this. But I don't want to, like, scare anybody. And just like, what's the easiest way is you could, for example, set up like a Google form for your yourself, connect that to the API of Blotato and say, hey, when I upload a video and an Instagram caption now I want you to go and post that Same Thing on TikTok, on YouTube, on LinkedIn, on X. And if you want to even go a step further, you could have AI turn that video into maybe a thread instead for X or threads. It'll do it for you.
- [46:17]
A
And post it for you.
- [46:18]
B
Yep, and post it for you. So Blotato is great because it will just allow you to post everywhere with more ease. In that way, it's more flexible than using something, something like an actual drag and Drop tool that you have to go into and do that with. So that's a great one for any teams or solo creators who are already posting content. It's just like, why aren't you posting everywhere? Well, because it's a lot of work. Well, what if you just had to upload once? And if you just upload once, then you know it's everywhere.
- [46:41]
A
Right.
- [46:41]
B
And then the first thing that I had mentioned was, okay, what if you're not posting enough right now? And I think the best thing to do is figure out, like, where is your constraint? Because for everybody, it's a little bit different. And sometimes it's in the ideation phase of, like, I don't know if my idea is good enough. Maybe I don't spend enough time on social. I just have no idea. I haven't done it enough. Second might be the scripting piece. People might get stuck on. Like, well, what exactly do I say? Like, how do I not look like an idiot? You know, maybe have some credibility already as a business? I don't want to look dumb to people who know me. And then the third thing is typically the filming and editing process is where a lot of people get stuck because then they're like, oh, my gosh, this is taking way too long to edit. Like, I'm done. And then they just never post the content. So there's tools for all of it now, like a few just to kind of. Spitfire is the first one for ideation, Sand Castles, which was built by Kane Calloway, who is an awesome creator. That's great for finding outliers and then like, outliers as in this piece of content did 10x better than this creator's normal content. Wow. And then you can, like, favorite certain accounts that you want to see content from, and it also script writes for you. So it's kind of like both of those things. Yeah. So sandcastles, AI. Great option for that. I would say it's like the easiest interface to interact with if you're not super technical and you don't want to go and like, build your own system, which is what we've done. So we don't need to get into that today, but we can do a whole episode on that later. And it's like 30 agent pipeline that we're building.
- [48:05]
A
You never cease to amaze me. Natasha, continue.
- [48:08]
B
And then for filming and editing, my gosh, so much is happening right now with this. I have friends who have companies that they run that are hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue a year that put out Hundreds of new ads per week. And they are now able to edit even entirely on their own or have their AI agents edit through, like Descript for example, and the a the API that it offers. And then there's also ones like one of our team members just started using sub magic, I think.co or AI. And that one can automatically edit stuff for you too, like captions and all the things.
- [48:41]
A
So that's insane.
- [48:42]
B
Couple of different tools that people can like, start to look at and use. And I think the challenge is going to end up being just like in business now. I mean, it's already pretty fragmented. Right. It's like, what's your CRM, what's your email platform? What do you use for landing pages, what do you use for checkout? All the different things. And so the goal will be to, like, try to simplify and consolidate because people are going to get really overwhelmed with all the tools. So if you just listen to that and you're like, okay, I don't want to go and figure out five tools. Like, just pick one that's your current constraint and just use that and you'll get out more content than you are right now. You don't have to worry about building the whole system from the beginning.
- [49:16]
A
I have been saying this a few times on this podcast. Us like, we are in the infancy of AI.
- [49:20]
B
Yeah.
- [49:21]
A
Like, it's so important to adopt it. I think it's like the ipod version right now of what the iPhone became like 20 years ago.
- [49:29]
B
That's a great analogy.
- [49:30]
A
Really. It's going to change the face of everything. And people are. I've heard so many mixed reviews from my own community. Like, some women totally all in. Other women refuse. Some are like, I don't know, I'm overwhelmed. And if you can just pick one and start to really play, play. It is, in my view, such a gift. Because what is our most precious commodity? Our time. And it gives you back your time.
- [49:53]
B
Yeah.
- [49:53]
A
And it's going to be able to think with you, not for you. 100. That is a true gift of being alive at this time. I feel like, yeah, AI is so exciting. But it is also a reminder that we have to show up and still be human and be consistent in our humanity.
- [50:13]
B
Totally.
- [50:13]
A
And that's why these talking heads being in the deep DMs, creating true community, showing up is going to be a competitive advantage that AI can never take on. And I think, absolutely, you have really been able to blend these worlds. You're so technical and so creative at the same time. But One thing I really want to highlight around you is you're baddie when it comes to building a business yourself. You went from being this nomad living across the world, standing on stages like, like social media marketing world and 2021. Now you're a little older, not too much, but you're. I don't even know you. You're like an alien, Natasha, you have such codes, but you've built this insane business. Can you talk about what school of bots looks like today, like the size of your team, how many clients you have, how to work with you? I would love you break all of that down because there's a handful of ways they can.
- [51:07]
B
Yes. So we originally started as an agency done for you as you know and from the agenc and we still do that work, but we do it with a really small number of select clients because it's essentially our R and D lab and we're able to just test all sorts of crazy stuff on accounts that are posting five, ten times you know, a day and able to create all these different kind of case studies and examples and then be able to help so many other businesses that maybe don't want to or need to do that volume to be able to deploy those same strategies. So our flywheel kind of looks like that where we have this R and D lab which is our done for you.
- [51:41]
A
And you're posting all their content for them.
- [51:43]
B
We're not posting their content for them, but we do direct the conversion strategy of it. Got it. So we'll pretty much tell them, hey, like your content schedule needs to look like this. You guys are still producing your content because that's also why we're working with you is typically they are growing at 10k new followers a month and they're doing at least $2 million a year in the business. A lot of them are much bigger, but those are like at minimum some of the growth requirements. So then that way they already have momentum and they know what works. And now we can layer this strategy on top to literally triple the revenue or more in like the first 90 days. So that's the done for you side, which we do still take a few clients on every single month. And our goal is like, keep growing that because again, it's our R D baby. And the fun part though is that everything we do in that business, we're now working on automating 90% of like the initial deliverables. And so then that way we can actually scale that one anymore. So that's in a fun place. And process. But, yeah, people really enjoy working with us there. Then we have our education division. So this is where we have courses and templates that people can get started with if they're like, I want to taste, you know, a little bit of the magic first. And then once I have my aha. Moment of, holy shit, this is crazy. Like, we had somebody recently actually jump from going through the course. They collected 7,000 new leads in their first week, and then from there went on to join our done for you service. Because they're like, I'm sold.
- [53:04]
A
Like, you know, just do it all
- [53:05]
B
for me now, though, because it's a whole thing, right? I, um. And they have. They have huge, huge, like, potential to scale. So that makes sense for them. And then we have our coaching programs. And so that is, for example, what you went through, where our team helps you install parts of our system that are most relevant for your business model. Because, like I said, we have over 30 different playbooks that we run and over 400 million messages of data. And so not every business needs, like, every single playbook. So we'll actually come in, like, look at what you're doing in the business, build out projections for what you can realistically expect now, because we have all these formulas now that we can run in, like, a split second based on your Instagram analytics and your business. And then we tell you, hey, here's what you can expect to make ROI wise. And then we come in and work with you, typically for the first five weeks. And then we have an opportunity for people to work with us on an annual basis, too. There.
- [53:53]
A
I want to tell you something. I took your program the very beginning of Jessica's WAG Inc.
- [53:58]
B
I remember.
- [53:59]
A
And it was like, just the beginning. It was when we fell in love. At least I fell in love with you. And. And I was like, it was one of the best investments I've ever made in my business.
- [54:07]
B
Wow.
- [54:08]
A
And I've signed up for a lot of courses and coaching programs myself. Masterminds, the whole gamut. That was one of the most invaluable things I invested in Natasha. I don't know if I've ever told you that.
- [54:20]
B
No, I don't think you have. But that makes me so happy.
- [54:22]
A
It's really.
- [54:23]
B
Thank you for sharing that.
- [54:24]
A
It's true. I learned so much. I was able to immediately implement it. And, you know, I don't know if you know this. One of the best parts of that was meeting all the other entrepreneurs in my cohort. We still follow each other.
- [54:34]
B
Other.
- [54:34]
A
We still, like, like each other's stuff. It's been such a gift to watch all of them continue to grow too. Like, it's a really special thing that you've created. How many people work for you now?
- [54:46]
B
So right now we are 15, believe it or not. We're actually not even that big. Like, but that's still a sizable team. It is a sizable team. And what's been really interesting is, like, this year I expected us to grow to somewhere between like, 30 to 40 people. And I actually don't think that we have to do that to achieve the growth goals that we were expecting. So. So we might still do it just so we can scale even bigger. But so much has now shifted where, like, because we've been documenting things for years and years, just plugging in, AI has proven to be just really fast and, like, not easy by any means, but, like, simpler than we thought it was gonna be. Yeah. And so, yeah, wow. See what the end of the year looks like. But yeah.
- [55:24]
A
And you are the COO and your husband is the CEO. Is that still the case?
- [55:28]
B
Yeah, that is the case. We're actually talking about, like, okay, what do we do kind of going forward as like, so much is like, shifting from for us. Because I think I really, like, love the idea of being CEO and he's really amazing at the visionary, like, founder aspects of here's where we need to go next, etc. So we were co CEOs, like, more so moving into this year. And I think we're going to maintain those titles just because we do make a lot of, like, the core leadership decisions together. But now, I mean, our leadership team has grown too, so I imagine that'll shift a little bit bit.
- [56:00]
A
What have been some of the toughest lessons you've had to learn as a business owner, growing a team at this rate?
- [56:07]
B
I think one of the biggest things when you first start to grow your business is your ego comes in, right? And says, oh, I've got this big business now and I've got this team and I want to keep growing this team for the purpose of just saying I have xyz, maybe people on the team or you know that I actually went back and kind of looked into this more because I was talking actually her first a hundred K, Tori Dunlap about this because we had a similar experience where I was like, oh, you know, I've got this big business out. All these people work for me. And it's the completely wrong metric to look at, obviously, because then you're like, okay, well, you know what's your profit, for example, as one question. But what's been kind of interesting is if you think about leverage, all throughout history, for a very long time, it was labor leverage that actually made you the most wealthy. Because if you had thousands and thousands of people under your command or employ or whatever ownership, then you had so much, you know, that you could do resource wise and therefore you made a lot of money. But now leverage has changed so much over the years from software and media capital. And then of course, even things like partnerships and whatnot can be looked at as leverage now. And so the number of like people who are working for you is actually not the most impressive thing that you can share about your business anymore. But I think that was a hard lesson for me where it was like almost this like primal thing, right, that was within me. And then I realized like a year later, because we got an in person office and we hired a bunch of people in person, then we shut the office down and I was like, like, okay, I learned my lesson around like having some kind of ego, maybe around the number of people, you know, that work for you. Because it's just, I mean, I've got a friend, we were just talking about her earlier. She has five people who are not even full time on her team and she's making $23 million a year. And so the fact of the matter is that, I mean there's one person, billion dollar companies now too that are emerging with AI. So I think that was one of the harder lessons for me that I'm so grateful I learned pre AI as well.
- [57:57]
A
Yeah, yeah, I went through that lesson too.
- [57:59]
B
Yeah.
- [58:00]
A
Big team, big office, top line revenue. None of it matters. It actually costs you more of your piece to have all of those things moving.
- [58:08]
B
Absolutely.
- [58:09]
A
On this topic of like mindset, what do you think people are looking at all of the accounts, the big follower growth, the success metrics, and there's a, a desire to that stage as well. And we've talked so much about strategy today, we've talked so much about tactics today. You work with some of the biggest names in the the game. What is the difference that you see in the mindset of the entrepreneurs that are scaling and winning at exorbitant rates and numbers like you've mentioned? And those that aren't.
- [58:46]
B
Yeah, they're willing to reinvent themselves every single day if it is required. And I know you have shed so many different skins over the years and moved into so many different identities and you're in a really beautiful one now, but things are going to look so different in probably a couple years. And then after that, after that. Right. And so what I've found is that the people who win the most are willing to be beginners at almost anything. And it's really showing with AI right now as well, because you see a lot of people who are more resistant. They're not willing to be beginners. They're not willing to kind of go back to the drawing board and say, okay, I've got to learn this thing from scratch and look really fucking stupid to some people and have to defend myself to some people, so on and so forth. And it's the whole content thing of, like, not giving a fuck that a lot of people have a hard time with. And so there's a lot of people, for example, who have run ads for their entire business lifetime and they have a hard time because they're not willing to just hop on and be raw and like, be bad at something again for the first time, maybe in a long time. So that is a number one trait. Like, above all else, like, coachability is right alongside it. But in order to be coachable, you have to literally be willing to step into an entirely new reality of your life and who you are and how you act every single day.
- [59:55]
A
Totally. Humility. I love that. It's really true, like, if you're scaling a business with anything. But in the world of entrepreneurship, I think if you're less than 10 years in, you're still a startup, you're still a new business.
- [60:10]
B
Totally.
- [60:11]
A
If you look at like the standards of industry over the last century, if you're under 10 years in business, you're still a new business. If you're under 50 million, you're still a small business according to, you know, the statistics of our country. I think having humility and the knowing that you're going to be a. A different business every six months because you're gonna be a different person.
- [60:32]
B
Yes.
- [60:33]
A
And you have to be willing to back to ego, let that die. Learn your lessons, learn them fast. Be willing to be uncomfortable and be willing to, like, not make it perfect every time.
- [60:44]
B
Yeah.
- [60:45]
A
And the beauty right now is like, nobody wants perfect anyway. That's like kind of the magic of what's working and that you stay grounded. As an always beginner, I think that is a massively beautiful piece of advice. So needed to hear because I have this theory that none of us really know what we're doing. We're all figuring it out as we go. Everybody.
- [61:03]
B
Absolutely. You hear it from everyone where they're like, I have no idea what I'm doing. Yeah, but you're figuring it out. And I think one piece that is left unsaid that I struggled with for a long time was the decision framework aspect, though. It's like, you might not know what you're doing, but you have good decision frameworks to make the right decisions and move faster. And so that is also, I think, a really big learning that maybe people just don't talk about enough. And now AI can literally help you with those things as well. Be like, hey, I made this decision before. It was a good decision. Break it down a decision framework for me and help me apply that to the next thing.
- [61:35]
A
Like, what's next for you, babe? Where do you see yourself in, like, the next five years?
- [61:40]
B
Yeah, I think I'm finally at a place where I've accepted. Speaking of shifting identities is like, I've accepted. Okay. I've just been, like, such a pussy for not building my own distribution network.
- [61:53]
A
And.
- [61:53]
B
And like, I love speaking and I love teaching and all the things, but I think it was the whole, like, how do I speak to a larger community of people who don't know who I am, don't know what I do, et cetera. Right. And so I just, like, have been behind the scenes for so long. I've done, like, big podcasts and over 300, like, speaking engagements and stuff. And, like, I know that's what I like to do, but it's always an ebb and flow, you know? And so now we're finally seriously building out our content team and, like, doing all those things for your brand. Yeah. So that's really my biggest thing over the next five years is I've realized, like, distribution is really all that matters because business is the same game at the, like, end of the day. At the top of the game is like, any business you have, it's always going to be about the people and the systems and, like, ultimately you're doing the same stuff. So I don't need to be married to the business model I'm in right now or the type of business that I have. It's just about, like, if I build this distribution network, then now I can have any kind of business that I want. And we will always have more demand than we can supply, which we're technically already in right now. And so I think it's also been something too. I'm like, ah, how are we going to, like, grow and do all this? But I feel really supported now with all the new hires we've been making. This Year. And you feel good about yourself. I'm, like, in a really good spot right now with all the pieces, so.
- [62:59]
A
I'm so happy to hear you say that.
- [63:00]
B
Thank you.
- [63:01]
A
That's not taking a long time. I know, babe. To get there takes a long time.
- [63:04]
B
Get some good talent, you know, trial and error.
- [63:07]
A
Your people are. Your business is only as good as your people. And I also believe there's a layer to that. Your business is only as good as your leadership team.
- [63:14]
B
Absolutely.
- [63:15]
A
And that's really, like, such an important thing to continue get right so that you can fly as the founder. First time I saw you, I watched you on someone else's webinar.
- [63:22]
B
Yeah, you had mentioned that.
- [63:24]
A
And I was like, her and no, you. I've seen you step into the light, and that's where you should be.
- [63:32]
B
Appreciate that so much.
- [63:33]
A
It's amazing. I'm so honored that you're here. My audience could get to learn from you. I mean, you are like, again, I'm not blowing smoke. I'm blowing throwing flowers. One of the smartest people I've ever, ever met. And one of the last things I just really want to amplify. For those that are interested in Natasha's work, go check out School of Bots. We're going to leave it all in the show notes you really like. This is something I feel like you and I have in common. You really want people to win.
- [63:58]
B
Yeah.
- [63:59]
A
Like, your success is other people's success.
- [64:01]
B
Totally. Almost a little bit too much. Like, I know you're in a human design and all the things, and so I've really been digging deep lately.
- [64:07]
A
What are you?
- [64:08]
B
I am a 13 generator.
- [64:11]
A
Oh, yeah? You're sure. Generator.
- [64:13]
B
So it's like every day I'm like, all right, what am I up right now? And, like, I'm having this problem. It's like it's your 5818 correction queue or, like, whatever, you know? So I just talk to Claude every day about my problems, and I'm like, oh, perfect. Okay, cool. So anyways, but one of those big things for me is that, yeah, I take on people's problems a little bit too much. And I'm like, all right, how do I, like, look at your business as if it's my business, so on and so forth. And so I think once I become aware of that, it's like, like you said, it is a superpower, though, at the same time, really is being able to understand it, but important to find,
- [64:45]
A
like, where you end and other people begin.
- [64:47]
B
I love that description. Of it.
- [64:50]
A
It's real when you have a servant heart, you know. But there is a code of sisterhood that I walk and you walk it to. There's actually two codes. Generosity and reciprocity. Every time I've ever needed anything from you, you're always there. And you're so generous with what you know and who you know and your support and the way you cultivate reciprocity amongst women, you really walk that. And I just. Women who are listening today enter your world. Like know that that's Natasha's frequency. I know her like data driven, insanely analytical mind can be like scare you, but you're sister.
- [65:30]
B
Oh, thank you so much for saying it's true.
- [65:32]
A
I have a few final quickfire questions for you.
- [65:35]
B
Let's do it.
- [65:35]
A
We get a little woo woo on my show, so just be prepared.
- [65:38]
B
I was waiting for it.
- [65:41]
A
Okay, well, we'll start with just the the Spiritual Hustler bookshelf. Do you have two? I asked what is your favorite business book and if you have a favorite spiritual book or a book that's changed your soul in any regard?
- [65:51]
B
Yes. Okay. My favorite business book. Ooh, this is a hard one right now for. For me, it's a good book. I haven't come back to it in
- [65:59]
A
like, it like changed culture so long ago. You know what?
- [66:02]
B
It's no rules rules. So it's from the founder of Netflix and the culture I just resonate with so extremely because of my human design. But yeah, because it's all about like, how do you look at your business as a sports team versus a family. And that might be controversial. Controversial for some people, but it's all about, like, are you in the best seat? Are you the best person for that seat? And if you're not, then it's okay. And so our team operates that way and everybody can acknowledges, like, hey, I might not be the best person in this role. Like, maybe I'm not as detail oriented as this role needs me to be, or I'm not as presentable on camera as I should be for this role. And so how can I then still add value to the business and maybe move into another role? Which we have done plenty of times, you know, in the company. So anyways, that's the best for sure that I've read the last three years. And then my favorite woo woo book. Gosh, I don't read a ton of woo woo books. I have read Ram Dass's book, which I'm forgetting what it's called. I think it starts with an N.
- [66:58]
A
I don't know that his book, but
- [67:00]
B
I remember reading that and I was like, what the did I just read? Because it's, like, a really interest. It's pretty much just him being, like, high on mushrooms, like, explaining, like, gurus and all this stuff. Right. And so anyways, it has resonated with me more as I've, like, reflected on it. I think I read it, like, three years ago, and I just still think about it from time to time. So I should come back to it and see, like, what new, you know, things I get from it. But it was a really fascinating read because I think it was the first book I read all the way from front to back. That is maybe category of spiritual.
- [67:29]
A
I love the super spiritual. Das was one of the pioneers of consciousness, and he was right.
- [67:37]
B
Yeah.
- [67:37]
A
Do you believe in aliens?
- [67:40]
B
Well, I do, because of you. Prior to. I think the thing for me is that I will believe in almost anything. Like, you know, for example, so many people are Christian. Right. Really? It's like, if Jesus Christ just, like, appeared right there, be like, all right, you know, like, that's now happening. I don't think there's very many things that can surprise or, like, shock me because I don't really process things as much in the moment. I'm more, like, stoic in the moment. I'm like, okay, let's like, what's the analytical, like, pragmatic thing to do? And then later I'm like, okay, so how do I really feel like, about that thing? But, yeah, I mean, make so much sense.
- [68:11]
A
You're looking at one.
- [68:12]
B
I mean, I also know. I know I've learned about all this
- [68:15]
A
from you, so I might switch up the question because it can be kind of. Kind of polarizing that word.
- [68:19]
B
Totally.
- [68:20]
A
And I've also been told that in
- [68:21]
B
a good way for social engagement.
- [68:23]
A
Yeah, definitely. Nothing will help you pop off and go viral. Like, say you're an inner alien on the Internet. I'll tell you that. So great. It's like, I've heard that they don't like to be referred as that because alien is a.
- [68:35]
B
It actually has a negative conversation. I was gonna say it does.
- [68:38]
A
It's more like extraterrestrials or higher beings. And we can talk about this offline. But as some somebody that loves the data and, like, wants to, like, go deep on all of the different true mechanics of how something works. If you really study the science of the universe, it's impossible that we're the only life form in all of the entire ever expanding, infinite no end universe. I mean it breaks my brain to actually think about it, but it's to me, if I were to just narrow down one, I feel connected to the them as a way of being in my own life. But it humbles me going back to that word, like how small, how much
- [69:18]
B
is going to bring you back.
- [69:19]
A
Yeah, it frames things into more perspective and peace. To be honest, when I'm like dealing with like dumb human, like well, this is just one dimension of multi dimensions, one version of reality that could not even be reality.
- [69:33]
B
Perspective. Yeah, because I haven't spent a lot of time thinking about it. But like, specifically that. But um, like sounds like it's been a really useful. I don't want to call it a tool, but it's like it's one of the things kind of in your mental toolbox almost of like, okay, that's a frame I can use to then help me move through and move on to whatever, you know, all the time comes next.
- [69:53]
A
Thanks for reflecting that. I'll give you some books you can
- [69:55]
B
read, you'll appreciate it.
- [69:57]
A
Videos you can watch.
- [69:58]
B
I will, I will. 100.
- [69:59]
A
I'm going to send them to you. Do you, speaking of higher beings, do you feel a certain connection to any, any like spirit guide, angel, ancestor goddess?
- [70:11]
B
There's not a specific like one that I would call out from like history or like certain books or like you know, mythologies or whatever, but it's almost like myself, what's been kind of interesting is like when I have taken let's say a gram to 2 grams of mushrooms and I'm like around, you know, like the world, you know, outside. I've had multiple moments where I have a conversation with my friends future self. And so that has been really interesting for me because it's like these almost like glitches where it's like, okay, I'm here, present right now. But then I maybe like just had that offside conversation for like maybe a minute or two, right? And then it's like almost like time paused and then came back. So that's happened to me a couple of times where I'm like, okay, that's like how I should deal with this thing I'm dealing with right now. So that's been my probably most special experience, like kind of around, I think that idea or concept, I love that answer.
- [71:08]
A
That makes the most perfect sense that that was your answer. Because you are so quantum, Natasha. You're so ahead of your time, so
- [71:17]
B
much to learn about it, but you do.
- [71:19]
A
But you also are like a sage You've communed with your future self, given where you are in this like linear timeline.
- [71:27]
B
Yeah.
- [71:27]
A
Makes so much sense to me if that makes sense. Yeah, no, it does. It's beyond. Okay, last question. Do you know what I mean when I say the New Earth? I write about it in my book.
- [71:37]
B
I know.
- [71:38]
A
Okay, I'll explain it.
- [71:39]
B
No, I can't explain it back to you.
- [71:41]
A
So that's what I'm here for. I'll frame it and then I'll ask you the question. So I believe we live in two different polarities. One rooted in fear, one rooted in love. You could call it the 3D or the 5D. The 3D. Fear based reality is the world that most of humanity is walking, working amongst. It's scarcity, it's survival, it's competition, it's lack of resources. It's me versus you.
- [72:06]
B
Yeah.
- [72:07]
A
That's a paradigm. 5D. Love based consciousness. New Earth based consciousness is a reality that's actually here right now that we are co creating all the time.
- [72:18]
B
Yeah.
- [72:18]
A
That is rooted in abundance for all. Safety, peace, love, joy, vitality, health, limitless possibilities.
- [72:26]
B
Yeah.
- [72:26]
A
All of the money, all of the community, all of the impact, all of the peace and the harmony that to me is the world that we get to create. So the last question that I have for you is what does it mean to you to be a co creator of the new Earth?
- [72:42]
B
Where to start? I think that it actually does come back to, to the identity piece of like what would you it take? Instead of any time someone asks you to do something or you ask them to do it, typically the answer is either yes, we can do that. Okay, cool, now we figure out how to do it or no, it's not possible. And when somebody says it's not possible or you even think for yourself, oh my gosh, well it is possible, but what would it take for you to do that? And if you start to, I think reframe things in that way, you don't always have to take action from that. But at least if you think about what it would actually take for you to accomplish whatever it is that pops up as an idea or a concept or someone brings to you and kind of challenges is like how far you can expand, etc, I think that that is doing yourself a service as well as doing everyone around you and in the world that you can impact a service by being able to shift into. Okay, yeah, what would that person who can do that actually look like and talk like, etc and stepping into that.
- [73:41]
A
Do you know how Pleiadian that is
- [73:42]
B
of you only makes sense. I'm just gonna come to me.
- [73:47]
A
No, it got so politically Canadian. Point of view is thoughts are things that we decide who we are, that we are truly limitless. And when we can really, truly click into that consciousness, we do change the world, and we create more possibility for other people. And that's who you are, and that's who you're working with. Are the. Are the lightworkers. And I'm so grateful that I had you on my show today. And then I know you. I call you a sister, and I every time I'm with you, I'm upgraded. And I know my community absolutely felt the same today. So thank you for being here.
- [74:22]
B
Thank you so much for having me. This was so fun.
- [74:24]
A
I love you.
- [74:25]
B
I love you.