← The Spiritual Hustler
The Spiritual Hustler
The Bachelorette's Kaitlyn Bristowe on Reinvention, Trolls & True Confidence
01:10:36
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- [00:02]
A
Welcome to the Spiritual Hustler podcast. I'm your host, Jessica Zweig, multi seven figure serial entrepreneur, best selling author and branding and business coach. And this is a show where we are redefining the word hustle. Reclaiming our true feminine nature of magnetism and putting down the self judgments and shame around loving to work and making a lot of money at it. On this show, you're going to learn how to stop hustling and start spiritually hustling. By pressing play, you are now part of a new movement of women who don't hustle for money. We hustle for meaning. We don't hustle from lack. We hustle for love. We don't hustle from survival. We hustle for humanity's thriving. We hustle toward healing the ancestral programming of fear and step into a new understanding of safety in the body. To receive this shift isn't going to only heal your life. It's going to make you a whole lot richer too. This is the Spiritual Hustler podcast. Well, hello my beautiful spiritual hustlers and welcome back to the show. You guys, I am smiling so deeply today. One because I get to be with you and you are my favorite place to be. This podcast, this community, this badass, beautiful web of lightworker women across the planet weaving a new consciousness of what it means to be a boss, a baddie, to make money, to make moves and to do it the heart to do it from her truth, to embody the light and to shine it in the way that only she can. That's you or you wouldn't be here. So thank you for being here. If you are new, welcome. You have found yourself in the right place. Trust that there are no accidents. And if you are not new, welcome back. You guys are all in for a massive, massive gift. It's another reason why I'm smiling ear to ear. I have just been so blessed by all of these incredible guests that keep coming on the podcast. And this is, this one is a special one. You guys. I've got Kaitlyn Bristowe on the podcast. If you've been sleeping under a rock, she's kind of famous. She was on a little show you might have heard of called the Bachelor. After that she became the Bachelorette. After that she was on Dancing with the Stars. She's a reality TV kind of goddess. And she's an artist, she's an entrepreneur, she's a musician, she's all of those things. Yes, you're going to really, really know my perspective. And that's what you're here to gain because I obviously invited her on my show to get know the real Caitlyn. She's a sister. She's a down to earth conscious light worker walking the walk of authenticity. And the truth is, you guys, I told her this on the podcast. I don't watch the Bachelorette. I don't watch reality tv. I don't actually watch TV at all. But I follow Caitlin Bristow on social media and maybe you do too. She's got a massive following, millions of followers. She's, you know, one of the most kind of public faces of reality tv. And I'm a frequency person and I'm sure you are too because you're here listening to this podcast and I saw so clearly the light and the heart and the depth behind the Persona and I wanted her to come on this podcast to tell her real story, to go deep into her journey and what it's really been like to be a public person and to put yourself out there on social media. The way that she has to build one of the biggest podcasts in the space, which is her podcast off the vine to launch her own wine brand, which she's going to get into and what has been her personal spiritual journey underneath it all that the world hasn't seen. And I really believe this podcast shows a part of Caitlin Bristowe that is the real part. We have real conversations, as you all know on this podcast, and we really just felt like talking over wine or dinner as girlfriends in this interview. It didn't feel like an interview as much as it did a conversation. You're actually going to get to know parts of my story I've never shared. You're going to certainly get to know parts of hers. And I just want you to take a code from Caitlin on many things of, you know, her entrepreneurial endeavors, how she's built her business, how she's aligned her brand to the right brands as someone that gets a lot of brand deals. But she talks really openly about the dark side of growing it all and how she really had to come home to herself to align to her own values and ultimately spiritual path that made this interview gold. It is entertaining, it is inspiring, and most of all, it is relatable. Once you're done listening, you're going to want to go follow her on Instagram. She's fucking hilarious. She's all about that dry, sarcastic wit and that's another part of her magic. But what I appreciated so much about this interview and if you found yourself here, like I said at the beginning it's not an accident. I hope that it shows you that behind every face that you follow, every big account, you may be attuned to any projection you might have based on someone's success and notoriety. And, you know, guys talk a lot about projection on the podcast as well as on. On social. That people are dynamic and complex and all go on their own unique journeys, and that we should truly throw love, not shade, at anybody that is going for their dreams and putting themselves out there. No matter what that expression looks like, especially women, we gotta raise each other up. And that is something I absolutely took away from this conversation. This woman is a sister with a capital S. And that journey has not been easily wonderful. And she still shows up as a light and as a woman for women. And I hope that you really remember that no matter what your dream is, you want to put yourself out there. I have a lot of hiders in my community that have big dreams, too, and still freeze when it comes to putting themselves into the light to be seen the side to that, that the opportunity that you have to truly touch hearts is way more important and valuable and honestly realistic than it will ever be. That you hear her story today and it encourages you to step out into that light, use your gifts in the only way that you can build a career on your own terms, and that it not only will grow your impact in whatever form or version that looks like for you, but it will evolve your soul in the way that your soul came here to be expressed and the ultimate, true game that you're here to play, which is to be yourself. And if you choose to do it out loud like she did, amazing. And if you choose to hold that experience closer to yourself along the way, then that's a beautiful, beautiful choice as well. But if you can hear her story today and take away the gold that this woman has found for herself in knowing her own truth and her own heart despite it all, I know you can, too. And I hope it gives you one big, massive invitation to be unapologetically you and to never forget the power of sisterhood. Without further ado, here is my amazing conversation with Kaitlyn Bristow. Welcome to the Spiritual Hustler podcast, babe.
- [06:59]
B
Thank you for having me. Yeah, thank you for being here. So sweet.
- [07:02]
A
You have had such a trajectory. You really have.
- [07:05]
B
It's been a doozy.
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A
Yeah, girl.
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B
Love a doozy.
- [07:07]
A
Same girl.
- [07:08]
B
Yeah.
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A
And you have been, like, in this constant season of, like, many seasons of, like, reinvention, and you're so public. And I just. My first question for you is like, how do you hold your authenticity and your constant reinventions when the world has an expectation of you?
- [07:27]
B
Yeah, I love that question, because I always want to know that about people who I feel like are really humble and grounded. And I sat down with my dad probably a year ago. I thought he was going to tell me he was dying because I have intrusive thoughts. And he was like. He calls me Kate. Kate, can we sit down? I just need to have a talk with you. Like, maybe after dinner. I was like, what? No, now? And he, like, took me into my office and he said, you've done this. He went through all of my accomplishments. And I was like, yeah, that is cool. And he goes, that's not even what I'm proud of. He goes, I am proud that you have stayed true to yourself and you have remembered where you came from, and you have remained like the Kate that your family knows and loves, even if that is, like, a little crazy. Like, you've just remained yourself. And I said, well, that's because of you. Like, it's because of my friends I surround myself with. Yeah, I'm really close with my family. I think people who ground you and just make you feel loved for just who you are instead of what you do.
- [08:26]
A
Yes.
- [08:27]
B
Is always feels like a more unconditional love than conditional love. And I've just kind of seen through the other stuff. I think it really helped that I went into this world at the age of 30. I wasn't kind of, like, lost in my 20s. I had done a lot of therapy. I'd just rent. Invented myself from a really bad breakup. And it was just important to me. I remember being on the COVID of so many magazines after the Bachelorette, and it was like, my. My season was just so controversial, and there's so much hate being speed. And I just remember looking in the mirror and going like, you are at, like, the peak of whatever fame level you'll ever be right now. And you don't like this feeling, so just remember that it's not what it's cracked up to be. And, like, there's a lot of pain that's happening right now. And so just always surround yourself with the people who you trust and love and. And just stay true because it got you here. And as hard as this is, it's still where I wanted to be. Yes, I could handle the hate. I could handle all of that because I knew I was where I was supposed to be. So I think it's a lot of who you surround yourself with.
- [09:31]
A
It's everything. And let's just go back to that moment that your dad.
- [09:34]
B
I know.
- [09:35]
A
Pulled you into his office or your office. I'm picturing my dad say that to me. What a gift.
- [09:41]
B
I know. I. I started crying.
- [09:43]
A
Of course I could too.
- [09:44]
B
It's just he. My dad is 35 years sober and I believe that AA is Alcoholics Anonymous. You're not really supposed to talk about it. My dad is always okay with me being open about his journey because it's made him 35 years of basically learning how to live every day to the fullest. Taking it like one day at a time, thinking about what matters in life. And you're constantly going through 12 steps of like, really powerful things. It's basically like therapy every week. And he hasn't missed a Monday in 35 years. Like, he just. He's a really, really special soul.
- [10:18]
A
That's incredible. And I will say I have quite a few friends who've been through the 12 step program that are devoted to that program. They're some of the most conscious, God based.
- [10:27]
B
Yes.
- [10:27]
A
Beautifully awake, strong, present, humble, loving people.
- [10:32]
B
Yeah.
- [10:33]
A
Like my dad. That world, I have so much respect for that world and for the people that devot devote it themselves to it. You said something that I actually really want to click into because I. A lot of the women that I speak to and work with, you know, we live in this, I call it the projection field, where like, we're watching people with big platforms who have built success around it and there's this desire that they have to follow their own dream. Everyone's looking. Everyone's dreams look unique to them, of course. But so many women are up against this resistance of really being seen and putting themselves out there and staying consistent with that because they're afraid of what people will think of them. And you just mentioned, like, you were at the peak, which was the worst, and you still like, thrived.
- [11:22]
B
Yeah.
- [11:22]
A
And look, I mean, I'm sure it wasn't all, obviously it was painful, but the women that are listening now, they want to move past their own blocks because they hear stories like yours. And yes, you're an extreme. You were on a show like the Bachelorette. They're like, I don't want to deal with that hate. I don't ever want to feel that way. And yet I'm sitting there constantly on a daily basis and I'm working, like, what? The world needs you. Yeah. You know, so what advice would you give to her?
- [11:47]
B
Yeah, that's. It's so interesting because I do think it Takes a specific kind of person to be able to be in a spotlight or have a platform. And I think it comes with like constant self work. I think it comes with like I couldn't continue to thrive if I didn't like feed myself with like love and therapy and acknowledgement and like my own support. I've just seen the benefit of alignment within myself. So if I'm ever feeling like I'm having a doom scroll and I'm comparing myself to somebody else and I'm like feeling like I'm not enough and I don't feel worthy, like all the things that we all do, I just sit there and go like, oh my gosh, if we go back and tell 12 year old Caitlin what we're doing right now, like 12 year old Caitlyn would be like, you're joking. That is bigger than our wildest dreams. It's exactly where you should be. And I always just have to go back to that simple thought of like I'm such a believer in inner child work. I've done so much of it and I've again just the benefit of getting to know yourself and letting go of pain that parents have put on you or childhood trauma, not that you could ever let go, but you can give yourself a lot more grace or it can be a lot lighter to carry and you can know that it's not yours to carry. And once you get really deep with yourself and you are able. I'm a very visual person. I can drop into a meditation very quickly and go visit my whatever age self I can. I know where we are. We can either be at my family's cabin or like I have different spots for all that's beautiful and making me think, who cares what these people think if my little inner child is proud of where we're at and I can sit in the like, look at all the work I done and not only what I've accomplished but who I am that I can just keep going. Because what I've learned from a lot of therapy too is that you never want to be like the pattern police, like, oh, I see what that person's doing. This must be a pattern in their life. They probably had this as a child and. And you judge them almost or you want them to like do the therapy that you've done because as anyone knows who's done a lot of therapy, it exposes people who haven't.
- [13:56]
A
Amen.
- [13:56]
B
And that is very challenging when you see other people who haven't who you love and you believe in and you want More for them. And I feel that way about online trolls all the time. I'm just like, do better. Like, your. Your projection is showing your. What are insecurities? Like, what? And it just makes me sad that people haven't done the kind of work on themselves that could give them so much growth and love. But I went on a tangent and
- [14:20]
A
actually, can I double down on your tangent? Because I think it's important to say, and we'll come back to the wisdom I want to give them listening, because it's all relevant. There's this part of, like, my experience and having trolls on. On the Internet. When I first started growing my platform, it was so dysregulating to me. Like, I wasn't on a national TV show. But, like, Instagram is its own stage.
- [14:44]
B
It's almost worse because I'm like, of course I have voices coming in from Bachelor Nation. Like, you built something and it's just like your thing, Correct. Yeah. That's.
- [14:52]
A
It is like, my brand is me, is my business, is my life, is my soul.
- [14:55]
B
Yeah.
- [14:56]
A
And the first few years, when it started to really grow and then I started to get that, I really, really was affected by it. It, like, would take me down and I would get really spun up in it. And I went from that, like, clicked out of that into, well, those people are just unhealed. It's not even about righteousness, blessing and releasing. Like, send them love, send them peace. Although there's a part of me that does send them love. Yeah. But I'm at this place now where I recognize that what people think of me is really none of my business.
- [15:24]
B
Yes.
- [15:25]
A
And I can really hold my sovereignty in that.
- [15:27]
B
Yeah.
- [15:28]
A
And it doesn't charge me in the same way. What were you gonna say?
- [15:31]
B
I love that because I go through phases all the time where sometimes I stand so strong in that and other times I still crumble at, like. Yeah. Some of the comments depends on who
- [15:40]
A
it's coming from too.
- [15:41]
B
I think that's the thing. I mean, there's so many. I love clapping back to ding dong trolls because I'm like, oh, you're making it too easy. And like, part of my, like, love language in life is like, chirping or making fun of, because that's like a form of flattery, in my opinion. But I just. When it's a troll, I'm like, oh,
- [15:58]
A
this is too easy.
- [15:59]
B
But if it comes from somebody who actually, like, is a mother and, like, I see she has children, like, that's when I go like, oh, God, the World is still so in shambles. I'm like, we are never gonna learn. And now she's teaching her children to be a bully. Like, that's when it really affects me. But my moment of realization, not to, you know, police people into like, oh, you should do better, and you need to go to therapy. And it's more to just, like, be the light. And I think that's a big thing I try to do in life, is like, okay, I want to just. I want to show my crazy. I want to show my joy. I want to show my pain. I want to show up online, like, authentically, because I never want to lose that. I, I. This is such a silly example, but I remember Megan Fox said in an interview once, do you remember Love is Blind? When the girl said she looks like Megan Fox? And then the whole Internet went nuts because she didn't.
- [16:48]
A
Yeah.
- [16:48]
B
Somebody told Megan Fox that in an interview. And Megan said, oh, I hope that doesn't make her lose her sparkle. Because people bringing me down, like, the world made me lose my sparkle. And I was like, that's so sad, because she was actually so funny and, like, edgy and, like, didn't give a shit. And now she's like, hides and Megan Fox. Yeah, I agree. And I'm like, I never want to lose my magic, which is my crazy, which is my authenticity, because that's who I am. That's who I've been since I remember being, like, three years old. One of my first memories is me just being a crazy lady. Like, it's just part of my DNA, and I never want to lose that. And so I always want to show up as, like, I call myself a light seeker because I want to find other people in the world that want to, like, feel light and joy, which also comes with. I'm on antidepressants. Like, I'm. I'm also have that to battle with. So people are like, huh? But I'm just a walking contradiction. And that's okay. But it's just, like, so important to always want to show up as, like, okay, I want people to look at me and go, I want what she's having. That's how I try and live my life.
- [17:48]
A
Yeah. It's amazing.
- [17:49]
B
Yeah.
- [17:50]
A
Thank you for sharing all of that.
- [17:51]
B
Yeah, I'm gonna share it all day long. You'll go. You'll get her.
- [17:53]
A
Honest. And this is really what I was gonna ask you. The reality TV world is so exposing.
- [18:00]
B
Yeah.
- [18:00]
A
You really can't hide.
- [18:01]
B
Yeah.
- [18:02]
A
I think it's the reason why it is Somewhat so alluring and magical and powerful is because people like you are willing to be their full selves and so real.
- [18:11]
B
Yeah.
- [18:13]
A
So what was the impetus to venturing into reality tv?
- [18:17]
B
Yeah.
- [18:17]
A
How did that happen?
- [18:18]
B
It's so interesting because, like, when I said I'm a very visual person, my dreams tell me a lot. And I, like, have. I have books for, like, dream interpretations. Like, I'm very fascinated by dreams. And I can tell. This is so weird. I can tell when a dream is trying to tell me something. I can tell when a dream's just silly or, like, meaningless. And there are times where I'll wake up, I'll be like, that was way too vivid. And I had so many vivid dreams about being on the Bachelor. Did you really?
- [18:48]
A
Yes.
- [18:49]
B
Like, in my brain. It wasn't even shocking to me or, like, scary when I went on because I was like, yeah, yeah, this was gonna happen, like, for years in my 20s. And it wasn't that I was like, oh, I wanna. I actually wanted to have my own radio show. That was always my dream. And I wanted to be an entrepreneur. I wanted to have a radio show and, like, somehow have. I didn't even know what a platform meant at that time. I was, like, 24 when I wrote this vision board. And so then when I went through a really awful breakup, it was like the first really awful thing of loss that happened to me since. So my best friend died when I was 18. And I thought, I still have not gotten over that. I don't think I ever will. It just again gets lighter. But the breakup felt like almost that level of loss to me. And I was like, well, I'm just never gonna open up myself to anyone ever again. And I was, like, in a very dark place, and I had to go on medication and I didn't wanna be alive. And I was just like, you couldn't get me out of bed. My mom would come in every single night. I was having to stay with my mom. Cause when he broke up with me, I had no job, no money in my bank account. I had no education. I had given up everything to go move with him. And my mom would just play, like, YouTube videos of, like, brainwashing, like, to be happy and that you're gonna be okay and that you're worth, like, something. She was coming and play it in my sleep.
- [20:08]
A
I'd be, gah.
- [20:11]
B
But I really in that, like, once I would let myself feel really low and, like, sat there for way too long. My family and friends helped me get out of it. And I rebuilt myself. And my girlfriend was like, you need to go on the Bachelor. And I was like, I don't know if they take Canadians. And she was like, they do. They take two every year. And I was like, what? And so she sent in videos and photos and did all my paperwork. Your friend did it for you? Yes, she, her and my sister did, like, everything, and I didn't hear anything. A year later, I remember sitting at a restaurant on my lunch break.
- [20:44]
A
And what were you doing at the time?
- [20:46]
B
I worked at Cactus Club, which is, like, my favorite restaurant in Canada. It's a chain. Like, I helped open Cactus Clubs in Canada. And I was on my, like, third opening, and I was sitting there having lunch, and I had a missed call from an LA number, and I listened to the voicemail, and it was like, hey, it's Lacy from ABC casting Bachelor. And it had been a full year, so I thought it wasn't going on. And she was like, we're just hoping you're still single and wanted to, like, possibly think about going on the show. And I was like, get me out of this restaurant life. Yes.
- [21:15]
A
You had no reality TV experience before then. You were like. Like, in a heartbreak.
- [21:19]
B
This is how little I had. I walked. I remember walking out of the limo to meet the Bachelor, and I was like. So I was like, where's the music? Like, I thought you'd hear the, like, sad or sappy or whatever music they played when somebody got out of the limo, and I'm like. It was like crickets. And you stand there. I was like. Like, I just had no idea. I didn't know. There's, like, cameras everywhere, and there's, like, a whole team of producers just standing there. And, like, I was so naive to all of it, which I love, because I think that helped me just.
- [21:45]
A
I think one's naivete.
- [21:47]
B
Yeah.
- [21:47]
A
At the beginning of a journey is the greatest asset.
- [21:49]
B
I agree. I actually really agree. Yeah. Yeah.
- [21:52]
A
So you got yourself on the Bachelor. Yeah. And then you became the Bachelorette.
- [21:56]
B
Yeah. Which I never thought would happen because they don't usually like girls who talk about sex, have tattoos, and from Canada. But what do you think it was about you?
- [22:04]
A
And maybe not the perception of you, but what do you think changed in you?
- [22:10]
B
What do you mean? Like, when I became the Bachelor, you were so green.
- [22:14]
A
You walked onto this show. You had no idea about production, tv, world, anything.
- [22:18]
B
Yeah.
- [22:19]
A
And then you became the star of the next season.
- [22:21]
B
Yeah.
- [22:21]
A
So from, like, a quantum level.
- [22:22]
B
Yeah.
- [22:23]
A
Something shifted inside of Caitlyn.
- [22:25]
B
Yes. It was interesting. Because I always felt loved for who I was growing up. But when I went on that show, I felt like. Like, oh, I'm different. Like, and in a way, I thought that as a bad thing. But when I became the Bachelorette, I went, no, I'm different, and that's a good thing. And the world is clearly craving something different. And I get to be, you know, myself, and I get to be this girl who isn't like the other ones. And I love all of them. Every single Bachelorette I love ever. But I was like, I was very different. I was very, like, I was considered very edgy. I had the tattoos. I swore I talked about sex. That's just, like, so, like, a taboo on that show. And so I started being like, wait, I'm being celebrated for being different in myself. And I get to show other girls who maybe feel like they're quirky and weird and loud, like, we don't have to be put in a box. Yeah.
- [23:22]
A
I love that.
- [23:22]
B
Yeah.
- [23:23]
A
What was so. One of my biggest codes, like, I
- [23:26]
B
call it a code is sisterhood. Yeah.
- [23:28]
A
Like, riding for women. And really, like, I call it sisterhood with a capital S. Like, walking the walk.
- [23:34]
B
Yeah.
- [23:34]
A
And really championing women's rising as much as being, like, a shoulder to cry on when things are bad.
- [23:39]
B
Yeah.
- [23:40]
A
What was that experience like for you, being amongst all of these women who are, like, basically set out to compete with one another?
- [23:47]
B
Yeah.
- [23:48]
A
What did that show you about sisterhood?
- [23:52]
B
I'm still so close with about five of the girls from my season. We just had a reunion at my house not long ago. I met some of the most wonderful humans in that world. Even the final three. It was me, Becca Tilliam, Whitney Bischoff, who's now Whitney Angel. She's the Chicago girl who I love. You know, the final three, trying to marry the one guy, and we were like a sisterhood. That's amazing.
- [24:16]
A
How does that work?
- [24:17]
B
I'm not sure. I honestly, it still blows my mind that we're. And it happens a lot on that show because of course, they are. They cast. For dramatic purposes. They cast me because I was, like, guns blazing, telling inappropriate jokes. I drank. I was like, just this, like, spitfire. They. They got Becca because she's beautiful. She's more soft spoken. She's more this. They've got this person because she cries all the time. And they got this person because she's just, like a wild drunk. Like, they do this because that's what creates the magic of television. You can't bring all the same kind of Women into one house, trying to date the same guy and expect, like, it would just be weird. And so a lot of us actually got along. And I remember saying, our season's gonna be so boring because we all love each other now. They are really good at editing. I watched it back. I was like, oh, my God. Yeah. I don't remember any of it being this dramatic, but it was. It was actually, for the first time in my life where I didn't feel competitive with other women. I grew up dancing in ballet. We would all stand in the mirror and we'd compare bodies. We'd compare face shapes, hairlines, everything. We would be like, ugh, I'd be happy if I had your boobs and my butt, but your ankles, like, we just stand and compare all day long. And that was, like, a condition way for me to think. And I remember going in there and being like, I can't do that. I'm not going to compare myself to these women. I've worked way too hard on myself. I want to look at them as friends, not competitive people. And I would, like, stay up late and wait for girls to come home from their dates and, like, ask about it. And I was like, I know this is weird, but I just loved the idea of us feeling like a family at the end of the day.
- [25:56]
A
That's amazing.
- [25:57]
B
That was the first shift in my 30s of thinking that way, because I feel like when I'm in a not good place mentally, I go to comparing myself because that's, like, the easy. That's why I'll be like, oh, I'm gonna go get Botox and filler and fix this on my face. Because that's what I do when I'm in a dark place. And I realized over the years. So after I was the Bachelorette, Jojo Fletcher was the bachelorette after me. And so many people online were calling her, like, the hotter Caitlyn, the better Caitlin, the sweeter Caitlyn, the Caitlyn 2.0, the new and improved version. And I remember being, like, already in a really bad place after that show. And I was like, oh, my God. And then I went, I think this is the universe teaching me a lesson. So what I wanted to do is I'm like, I'm gonna support her, because nobody knows what it's like to go through this. So I'm going to. I reached out, and I, like, would write blogs about it, but I would have my girlfriend watch because I was too sensitive from the show and what the show had done to me. But I Wanted to be supportive of her. And once I saw how good that felt, I completely shifted my brain to a sisterhood. I went, if I'm ever feeling jealous or mean and I wanna say something about them, like, what am I doing? And what is that saying about where I'm at in my life? And every single time I was jealous. And then I went, what if jealousy is inspiration? What if you. We. What if we remove the word jealous from our brain and we think of other women as inspiring? And that changed everything for me. And then I started loving lifting other women up and I saw how beneficial it was to not even, like, what it looked like, like, to how I felt internally about other women. I was like, my whole life I've been tricked. I thought I had to compare myself to other women when I'm really just inspired by them.
- [27:45]
A
Yes. Isn't it up, up how they program us?
- [27:48]
B
Yeah.
- [27:48]
A
To compete and to judge and to compare and to feel activated and jealous because someone else shines.
- [27:54]
B
Yes.
- [27:54]
A
Which means it takes away from our shine.
- [27:55]
B
Right.
- [27:56]
A
And that is the witch wound.
- [27:57]
B
Yes. That goes way back, like to the
- [27:59]
A
1200s, when we were beyond that, like burned at the stake for being magical, beautiful, sensual creatures that we were.
- [28:06]
B
I was killed twice in past life.
- [28:07]
A
100 I was killed. I think I'm like an orphan of the orphans that like, of those women that got killed. Like, it runs so deep in our blood and we're so unconscious to it because there was only so much room for women to be in a family system, to be safe, to be next to a man. And that programming has been passed on. Like you mentioned the word DNA. Like the lineage that we carry in our bloodlines that have been passed all the way up into our mothers that didn't know better. And now we live in this world where we have therapy and we have medication, we have plant medicine, we have sound.
- [28:41]
B
The cycle breakers. We're the cycle breakers.
- [28:43]
A
I wrote about this in my book Early Work. Yes.
- [28:45]
B
We get to be the cycle breakers. It's really, it's a lot of work, but it's. It's a crucial, powerful.
- [28:50]
A
It's the fucking most important work. We're all we'll ever do. And so I just love that you broke that down, being on the Bachelorette. Like I said, like, in my view, like a perfect storm for women to compete. You found your, like, tribe. But after the show, like, that is just some gangster self awareness. I'll just say, Caitlin, it took.
- [29:11]
B
It took many years of me being crazy in relationships and like, not the good Crazy that I will own bad. Crazy because I couldn't see it for what it was. And that's not my fault, but it is my responsibility to change that and then not put that on if I ever have a daughter. But with you saying that, I also. They put two women against each other to be the Bachelorette on my season. So it was me versus another girl. They pitted us against each other, and they made the men decide who they thought. I'll never forget Chris Harrison. I still hold this against him. He said, who will make the better wife? And I was like, pardon me. We will both make incredible wives for many different reasons, but it's about who we are. And yeah, it was just, again, it was like for the tv, like, let's put two women against each other. And I was like, well, joke's on you. I actually like her. Right. We, like, went into it together.
- [30:02]
A
That's amazing.
- [30:03]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
- [30:03]
A
That's like the biggest. Fuck. The patriarchy moment.
- [30:06]
B
It was one could ask for, because the patriarchy. The man who runs the whole franchise of the Bachelorette did not want me to be the Bachelorette. He knew the rest of, like, the Internet and the world was like, make her the Bachelorette. That'd be entertaining. He was like, no. And so he's like, if I will, I put her against a prettier woman, and it was like, the most gorgeous woman. She's Brit. I'll never. She. I would just stare at her. She's so pretty. But it was. Again, it was like a moment for me to go, that's not how we have to think about this. We can walk into this together, not against each other.
- [30:36]
A
And we have choice.
- [30:37]
B
Yeah.
- [30:37]
A
And we have agency. And it takes a level of self awareness.
- [30:41]
B
Yeah.
- [30:41]
A
Right. To, like, say, hey, we can be on the same team here.
- [30:44]
B
Ye. Because we didn't feel good about it. We weren't like, I. Regardless, I ended up getting picked. But I felt terrible for Brit for so many reasons, but, like, mostly because, like, oh. Like that. That level of rejection and not being picked. I don't care who you are, hurts. Hurts anybody's feelings.
- [31:01]
A
But I love what you said about turning jealousy into inspiration. Yeah. I often say, like, what you see in me is what you possess in yourself, or you wouldn't be able to see it. Yeah. Like, that's why you see it.
- [31:12]
B
It's like, so if you look at
- [31:13]
A
me and you're like. You were just saying. It's like. I was listening. Like, she's so beautiful, Brit. I'm like, well, she's so beautiful. You, Caitlyn, because you're. You possess a beauty. You're able to reflect a beauty. If you're like, championing someone else's, like, massive success and financial rise, like, you either hold that in yourself already and you can do that, or you know that you're capable of that. Do you know what I'm saying? But if you're jealous of tearing someone down for being successful or beautiful, that reflects a shadow inside of you that you believe you'll never be beautiful or you'll never be rich. And it's just. It takes. I think this is the greatest time to be alive right now. On the note of cycle breaking.
- [31:49]
B
Yeah.
- [31:49]
A
Got like the circuitry and the DNA is like getting cut off, rewritten. And it's so hard because it requires you to look so deep at yourself.
- [31:58]
B
I know. So I get so mad at trolls because I'm like, do the work. Right, right. Do the work. Oh, you're like, everything's showing and I just want you to do the work.
- [32:07]
A
I have a whole new frame on the trolls.
- [32:08]
B
Okay.
- [32:08]
A
I probably don't get as many as you, but like, I get them.
- [32:11]
B
Well, the trolls are on fire right now to me, which. But it makes me be like, I'm
- [32:15]
A
doing something right and you're helping me with my algorithm.
- [32:17]
B
Yes, exactly. Please, please.
- [32:20]
A
I actually did my first video that ever popped off and went viral was a couple years ago during my book tour. Yeah. And I. It was like a. They had like a many chat on it. Like a call to action to buy my book.
- [32:30]
B
Yeah.
- [32:31]
A
And it was my first. I. It was the stupidest video. You know, when you like, do. And you post it, you don't think it's gonna pop.
- [32:35]
B
It's like, whatever.
- [32:36]
A
And the things you're like, please do well. And it doesn't go anywhere. That was one of those videos and it was this video. So I'm very open about like, my Pleiadian identity. And then I like, like, believe in higher beings, that I'm come from the stars and we actually all are made of stardust. That's science.
- [32:49]
B
Yeah.
- [32:50]
A
And I identify with the Pleiadian constellation and like, consider myself a Pleiadian. So I did this like 30 second video where I was just. I owned it. Like, I'm a Pleiadian. I come from a star family. You probably do too. Anyway, I published it.
- [33:01]
B
I saw that.
- [33:01]
A
Did you?
- [33:02]
B
Probably. Because that is always. That kind of stuff is always on my feed and I love it.
- [33:06]
A
I gained so many followers from that video.
- [33:08]
B
It went Viral. Yeah.
- [33:10]
A
But the comments.
- [33:11]
B
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [33:12]
A
I, like, pissed off the Christian community, like, hardcore. Like, I was called the devil, a Nazi, a demon. Like, people were making hateful comments about my face, and I was so disregarded, like, the first 24, 48 hours, I was like, what the is happening?
- [33:27]
B
Yeah.
- [33:27]
A
And I remember going to my ADS team because I was like, what do I do? I have a really trusted partner on that side of my business.
- [33:32]
B
Yeah.
- [33:33]
A
She's like, jessica, the algorithm doesn't know the difference between a negative comment or a positive comment. It's a comment.
- [33:37]
B
Yeah.
- [33:38]
A
And the moral of the story is I. I think I sold, like, a thousand books off of that one reel.
- [33:43]
B
Yeah.
- [33:43]
A
So, like, I see them now and I'm like, thank you.
- [33:48]
B
It is hard to have that mindset because, wow. They go deep. They want to. They would like to cut you.
- [33:53]
A
Like, you have way more of your personal life.
- [33:55]
B
Yeah.
- [33:56]
A
I mean, I feel like I'm as authentic as I. I intend to be, but I. I'm not on a reality TV show where, like, my heart was exposed, my relationships were exposed. Like, cameras are on you all the time. Like, we do get to somewhat curate the life that we want to show. And I say that with full awareness that people like, well, what are you preaching authenticity for? It's like, we get to choose right with empowerment and discretion today what's on the table for people to see about our lives on social media versus what we don't. But when you're as a public person as you are, I can imagine that the digs go deeper because they've seen more of you.
- [34:34]
B
I don't know if it goes deeper. I don't, because I go, well, they saw a one dimensional character of me on tv and then they think that's who I am for the rest of my life. The amount of people that still comment to me, like, you were so much prettier on the Bachelorette, and I'm like, do you really think I'm gonna look the exact same as I did 10 years ago? Like, I've changed so much. And, like, if you think beauty's on the outside, like, that's a you problem.
- [34:55]
A
Yeah.
- [34:56]
B
That's how I want me to look. The same as I did 10 years ago. Yeah. That's just not possible. I showed me a picture of you from 10 years ago. But people, Americans love their comfort food.
- [35:05]
A
We sure do.
- [35:06]
B
And that is, like, they want you to be the same, look the same. If they liked you at this point, they want you to stay that way. Like, they just don't have the capacity to hold growth in women. And it's so sad. And it's. I see it all the time on my social. If I dance in a bathing suit on social media, what happens? They come out the. You talk about the Christians and the people who are supposed to be kind and have like a Bible verse in their bio. I'm just like, what? God would not like that behavior?
- [35:39]
A
They have Bible verses in their bio always.
- [35:42]
B
It's bizarre. And I just go, wouldn't. Aren't you supposed to be a Christian? Like, I'm not hurting you. I'm not hurting you. I'm dancing. And people are like, she's going crazy. And I'm like, cause I'm dancing.
- [35:55]
A
What? Yeah.
- [35:56]
B
Also, it took a lot of courage to pose that because I have body dysmorphia. So let me have it. Okay. Yeah.
- [36:06]
A
All right, you guys, we're going to talk about one of my favorite topics, which is clothes. Now listen, hear me out when I say this. Your outer world is a reflection of your inner world. Okay, Sit with that for a second. And let's talk about my sister, Tally Kogan. All right, Many of you know who she is. She's been my stylist for over 10 years. But she is not just a stylist. She is an activation, a fashion alchemist and true soul whisperer. Tali helps women from across the country embody their next level. Yes, through style, activating the manifesting power of what you wear and how you feel every single day when you walk out of your closet. Whether you're stepping into a rebrand, launching your next big offer, or are simply tired of hiding behind the same three comfortable outfits. Okay. She is the woman that you call. I've worked with Tali for over a decade and she is the magic behind my signature style. I never go to an event, host a retreat, do a brand shoot without consulting with her. And she has not just changed how I dress, she's changed how I see myself. It's impacted not just my confidence and my energy, which is true, but my entire business. Her signature two day experience is called Calling Forth the Queen, which is a luxurious soul led styling and photo shoot journey for the woman who is ready not just for a new wardrobe, but for an entirely new identity. You'll leave with countless styled looks for speaking engagements, podcast interviews, travel, and everyday Life. Plus over 100 stunning high end editorial brand photos to use across your platform. And yes, I said 100. If you've been feeling the nudge to elevate your brand, your identity, your entire life. Babe, this is your sign. Head to tallykogan.com to book your transformational session right now. Because as t often says, you can have anything you want in life if you dress for it. It's true. Mention Jessica when you book your calling forth the queen session and receive your own crown. A complimentary Malkari jewelry stack of three pieces style just for you, valued at over $750. Yep. When you mention the word Jessica, when you book your Calling forth the queen session, you're going to receive $750 of Malkari jewelry just because you came from my community. So head to Togan.com today and step forth into your inner queen.
- [38:42]
B
Whenever I'm like, like, really just being me, that's when I feel like people hate it. But again, it's just so obvious.
- [38:48]
A
But, like, I feel like a woman in her joy and unapologetic authenticity is the revolution.
- [38:54]
B
Yeah. I wish more people thought like that.
- [38:56]
A
Well, you're in good company. And I think I just.
- [38:59]
B
You.
- [38:59]
A
We attune to those that magnetize towards our. If you're not repelling while you're magnetizing, you're not playing big enough.
- [39:06]
B
I like that.
- [39:07]
A
That's just. I think it's, be loved, be hated. Don't be ignored.
- [39:10]
B
Yeah.
- [39:11]
A
You know, and you're not going to unapologetically be yourself without polarizing somebody.
- [39:17]
B
Yeah.
- [39:18]
A
But your job is not to pander to them.
- [39:19]
B
Right.
- [39:20]
A
Your responsibility is to not trigger them.
- [39:23]
B
That's. They're definitely triggered, but it's not.
- [39:25]
A
It's not your responsibility. You know, and you've really. Speaking of reinvention and like, the evolution of what you said about Americans, it's very true. And I love that you could say that as a Canadian.
- [39:35]
B
Yeah.
- [39:36]
A
You've evolved nonetheless, babe. Yeah. You've really gone on to build a business and build a platform and have a podcast and be an entrepreneur. And your brand today, I feel like it, like, yes, the Bachelorette's tied to it, but you really stand for something so much bigger. And it's true. And as an entrepreneur, what have been like, you took your obviously, platform from the Bachelorette, but you, you. You've really made it so deep. What do you think is, like, the real lesson that you have for women today, like, building a brand and a business around themselves?
- [40:16]
B
It's one of my favorite things to talk about because I'm so lucky to have one of my girlfriends. So her name's Penny, and when I first moved to Vancouver, I remember looking At Penny, she worked in the restaurant that I worked in. She was younger than me, and she was positions much higher than me. And I remember being like, how did she do that? And I just watched the way she moved in the world and carried herself, and she was such a badass. And I was so inspired by her. And now looking back, I'm like, she's been a mentor to me since I was 19, and I'm 40, and I'm still so close with her. And I remember she kind of had this conversation with me of like, do you really want to go on the 19th season of the Bachelor? Like, it's really not doing that good. I feel like you're meant for bigger things. And then all that happened. She went, okay, I'm really glad you followed your gut on that. Like, now what? And I went, well, I want. I want, like, a longevity here. I didn't realize when I went on the Bachelor, it's when Instagram started becoming like, oh, can you make money off this? Can Instagram be a business? And it wasn't. I was not going on that show to get Instagram followers because it wasn't that time.
- [41:23]
A
It wasn't that thing.
- [41:24]
B
It was more like, while it was happening, I was like, wait a second. And I remember when I came off being Bachelorette, I had gone from. I was teaching spin classes and worked in a restaurant, and I was. I. I was not money motivated. I was, like, happiness motivated. And now things are a little bit different, but I'm like, I love money now. I love money too. But I was just like, oh, my God, If I have $10 in my account, I'm like, yes, I can get coffee on my way to work. Like, I just didn't care. I always knew I'd figure it out somehow. And so I got a brand deal offer, and this company calls me, and they go, we're gonna give you $5,000 to say that you wear this waist trainer that Kim Kardashian wears to suck your waist in. And I was like, sick. $5,000, which is a lot of money. And I was like, wow, I worked. Like, I remember I worked, I think, five months as hard as I possibly could to make $3,000 and, like, have that saved. And at one point in my life, and I was like, wow, yes, I'll do it. I posted it. And Penny calls me and she goes, take that down. And what do you mean? I said, they pay me $5,000. She goes, I don't care what they paid you. Take it down. And I was like, why? And I was so mad. And she goes, if you want to build a brand and you want the longevity of like this being a career, you have to have your audience trust you, trust what you're putting out there, trust who you are, what you believe in, what you promote. And she goes, and I promise you, if you do that, Reebok's gonna reach out and you're gonna do a really big brand deal with them. That's way more money and it's way more meaningful and it's stuff you wanna wear and show. And she's like, you're lying to your audience right now and they're gonna see right through it. So I deleted it. And it was the best advice.
- [43:14]
A
Send the money back.
- [43:15]
B
They hadn't wired it yet. It was the best advice that I had ever gotten because I was like, yeah, talk about the whole. I went into the Bachelor saying I'd rather be hated for who I am than loved for somebody I'm not. I just wanna be myself. And she goes, keep that through your whole life. Because that's my advice to women, is you always wanna align yourself with things that feel like it is your purpose, it is your dream, it is your passion. Because especially now, people see through that shit so easily. I am so icked out by performative bullshit to like get people to either like you or buy what you're selling. And I just, I see through it and I just think I was like, okay, I'm gonna turn down a lot of money. I turned down so many friggin brand deals that I could have just, you know. But overall, over the years, I really built a community with my audience instead of following a following. Yeah, it always feels weird to me to even say following because I'm like, I like that word. Yeah, me too. I'm like, I don't want a bunch of followers. Like Cult is such a.
- [44:19]
A
It's such a bizarre word to me. I've never resonated with it. Community a day.
- [44:23]
B
I want community. I want people to know that if I'm putting something out there, I've tried it, I like it, I use it. And now I swear by that. I make sure if I'm going to promote something, I've. I believe in it, I've done my research on it. And I think that's first of all, that and having people like Penny in my life, I built a team around myself of people like pennies, People who wanted to raise me up and champion me and believed in me. Yes. And they of course were gonna benefit from it too. But we were all gonna benefit. And it was the not short sighted view of like, oh, this is money right now. It's how do we build something really big together that's gonna last a very long time? And so that's. I mean, my girlfriend Cleo, she was my Canadian girlfriend, and she was just one of those people where she was so she could see trends before they happened. We started a scrunchie line. We started my wine label. Like, she just was so creative and so hardworking and like, she just was one of those women that she didn't really know how she was gonna figure out, but she knew she would. And she always really believed in me. And we're still like best friends to this day.
- [45:29]
A
You gotta have the best people around you.
- [45:30]
B
Yes.
- [45:31]
A
Women around you.
- [45:31]
B
And I have trust issues. I never did until I went on tv because I thought I trusted people so much that, like, the producers were literally manipulating me in front of my face. And I was like, they must think that this is what's best for me in my heart. No, they don't. They're doing what's best for tv. Caitlin, you ding dong.
- [45:49]
A
But then you, obviously, I mean, you have to go through those seasons where you learn those hard lessons the right way.
- [45:55]
B
Yeah. So many seasons.
- [45:57]
A
Hard way, I should say. But you have now a team around you. It sounds like, like that really, really protect you, support you, hold the highest vision for you.
- [46:06]
B
And they really put my mental health first, which is. Isn't that everything? I can't believe it.
- [46:11]
A
I have a team like that too.
- [46:12]
B
Oh, it's so important because I'm like. They even have my, like, period scheduled in their calendars.
- [46:18]
A
We should. Can we just pause on that, please? Because I think that if you are a female business owner.
- [46:22]
B
Yeah. You get those days.
- [46:24]
A
You get those days off. Yeah. Your team should know when you're cycling, like, when you're cleaning. Yes. My team knows too.
- [46:30]
B
Yeah.
- [46:30]
A
Whether they want to know, they're in their pleasure and beauty all the.
- [46:33]
B
Stay away from me.
- [46:34]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [46:35]
B
Like, it's.
- [46:36]
A
We're women running women owned businesses. I have so much. Sorry if I'm going off, but I know, I feel so passionate about linear time. The Gregorian calendar, the way that we've been conditioned to work based on the patriarchy. When we don't work in straight lines in linear time, we work in cycles. It's nature. That's this. That's our human bodies. So give yourself the gift of planning your business around your cycle.
- [46:59]
B
And I'm not Sure. If anyone's noticed. But women create life. Yeah. Like your body universe. Your bodies literally create another life of a brain, freaking lungs, nails. Like our bodies are so much smarter than Sorry men. Than men's. Sorry.
- [47:16]
A
Not sorry.
- [47:17]
B
But it's not true.
- [47:18]
A
But like so much technology is in there.
- [47:20]
B
If you don't let us listen to our bodies for what we need to achieve in the world. Like go yourself.
- [47:25]
A
Yes, exactly. I'm. I think it should be like part of. Of like business school and it should not just be an entrepreneurial endeavors. Like if it was like systemic in like the best way that the world that we live in operated in cycles and rhythms. Because it does.
- [47:40]
B
Right.
- [47:41]
A
I had someone say that to me once when I was going through my burnout phase because I was so hooked into life looking like this.
- [47:46]
B
Yeah.
- [47:47]
A
And she said, jessica, if all things in life are nature, which is true, that includes your business. And it's going to go through its own seasons.
- [47:55]
B
Yeah.
- [47:55]
A
So like, like honor your body.
- [47:57]
B
It's all about the body.
- [47:58]
A
And we override it as an epidemic. And we're suffering, which is why we have to find our right people, our right systems and flow to create like the natural order of things. Yeah.
- [48:12]
B
That's like a really hard lesson. If anything ever happened where like, if I was like losing followers or something had to close down or it didn't sell the way I wanted to. I always thought of that as failures. And then I go, like, why have I not looked at every. I just learned so much from trying to build that business. Like, I get to take that into whatever next thing I do. I've probably lost these followers because they probably did not align with anything I believed in or thought of or they were bots and they're gone now. Like, we have to shift our way of thinking with. And of course, like, I'm not. I'm actually a glass half empty kind of girl. I like, I really go doomsday. I really have intrusive thoughts. I really go worst case scenario all the time. But it's an ongoing practice to like stop that. So I say this like it's easy, but like it's. It's actually quite difficult. But just so many things in life. Like, I had a really successful wine label and it was really getting into all the targets and it was really like this. Well, the, the manufacturers and the, the facility that makes my wine, they've been in the business for over a hundred years with their family. They shut down. And then I found some legal stuff with the distributors and all Signs were just like, you know what? It's the end of this chapter for you, and there's a reason for it. And usually I would probably. You'd find me, like, three, five business days in a corner, crying and feeling like a failure, and instead, I just popped a bottle of champagne and I went on to the next.
- [49:30]
A
Good for you.
- [49:31]
B
That is, like, tremendous growth. I'm 40. That. I would not have done that even five years ago. But, yeah, I am.
- [49:36]
A
Absolutely.
- [49:37]
B
I'm like, okay, well, I got to. That was a fun ride. And the alcohol business was a doozy.
- [49:43]
A
I'm sure.
- [49:43]
B
And I don't have to do that, like, work anymore of, like, all the grinding that, like, men not understanding the vision and, like, so many things. And I'm like, there's just a reason, and it's gonna point me in another direction.
- [49:54]
A
Now that's a lesson in surrender.
- [49:55]
B
Yeah. Oh, that's like, my favorite word.
- [49:57]
A
Fame, girl. It's like, my life's work.
- [49:59]
B
Yeah.
- [49:59]
A
But seriously, like, with every moment like that, I love that you shared that, because there's not. We don't win or lose. We win and we learn. There is a season and a timing for everything.
- [50:12]
B
Yeah.
- [50:13]
A
And sharing that really trusted the timing of that moment. And you didn't make it mean anything about you. I mean, I'm sure it was hard. Hard. But the fact that you were able to take that and not, like, wallow in it and make this, like, spin this story that it was something you did wrong. It's just the seasonality. Yeah. Of life and business, which I think
- [50:33]
B
it just comes with, like, experience. Of course. And, like, the only reason I feel like I am able to continue to be successful is because I'm not afraid to fail. Like, I just think, like, okay, you're scared to do something. We'll do it. Scared.
- [50:46]
A
Are we all doing it scared.
- [50:47]
B
Yeah. We have to.
- [50:48]
A
You have to. There's kind of no other way.
- [50:50]
B
Otherwise you're not doing something, and then that's silly.
- [50:53]
A
Yeah.
- [50:54]
B
If you want to do something, do it scared.
- [50:56]
A
And look what can happen.
- [50:57]
B
Yeah.
- [50:58]
A
Today, tell me about your business. Like, your team. Like, how. What is the structure of your model right now with. Now the wine business.
- [51:05]
B
We're a no structure kind of team right now because I'm in the phase of sit in what you've done. I just filmed something for, like, three weeks, and I'm, like, so tired. I am. Talk about a dysregulated nervous system. I've realized over the years that I am my happiest and healthiest when I'm home. And I'm never home. And so right now I'm like, I'm not even. I'm not doing anything.
- [51:31]
A
We're just chilling.
- [51:32]
B
I'm chilling right now.
- [51:33]
A
Good for you.
- [51:34]
B
And I haven't done that in 10 years. So I'm like, I'm like, of course I'm still doing my podcast. I have a great system. It comes to podcasting. I podcast twice a week. I have not missed an episode in eight years. But I heard you say one of your podcasts, like, it is a gift to you that you have the podcast.
- [51:50]
A
Totally right.
- [51:51]
B
It's so beautiful. Again, building the community of people. Because, you know, Instagram, you can have however many followers, but on a podcast, like, these individuals want to sit and listen and they want to be with you for however many minutes in like, just a non judgmental environment of like, feeling good. And so the podcast has been absolutely just. I. I think I'll do that forever. Even if nobody listens. When I'm 80, I'm like, it's just part of me now. Same, bro. I love it so much. Yeah, Your show is great. Thank you. So it's really, it's been really fun and I'm trying to, like, I really got complacent there for a minute and I got called out on Facebook. Somebody was like, you know, I used to love your show, and it's been, like, kind of lacking and this and doesn't feel like you're into it anymore. And I spiraled. And after I spiraled, I went, wait, she's right. And instead of clapping back like I usually would have, I was like, you know what? I actually have been a little complacent and I need to do more research on my guests and I need to actually, like, this is a job. Like, okay, there. I don't want to watch eight hours of a reality show that they're on. Too bad. That's kind of your work. Yeah. And I started and I found myself. I fell back in love with podcasting again because I was like, wait, this is so much better and fulfilling when I'm actually putting the work into something that I do love. And so my, my team right now is just like, we're just in a group chat every day, and we are just the most go with the flow kind of people that you could ever imagine. And I probably should have more structure. No, but I love this. I'm like, taking a break from the, like, hey, what's this person doing? What? How are we doing this. I'm like, I just want. I just want to chill right now.
- [53:21]
A
But that is such a blessing. And I just say that there's nothing wrong with that.
- [53:25]
B
No, it does. I do feel guilty, though.
- [53:27]
A
Right. Though. That's part of the program, though.
- [53:29]
B
Yeah.
- [53:29]
A
Too.
- [53:29]
B
Yes.
- [53:30]
A
To feel like we always have to
- [53:31]
B
be producing something versus just being. Yeah. Yeah.
- [53:35]
A
So I'm trying to just be honestly, like, we go. I take a sabbatical once a year. Like, I take a month or two off. It's so deeply uncomfortable.
- [53:45]
B
Totally.
- [53:45]
A
For those first few weeks.
- [53:47]
B
Yes.
- [53:47]
A
And then I totally lock in, and I realize that this is actually how we're designed to go through seasons of sprint and rest. And the fact that you've arrived here, Caitlin, and you found your passion again for the things that really matter. Yeah. Like, I'm celebrating you for that.
- [54:04]
B
Thank you.
- [54:05]
A
Seriously, thank you for saying that.
- [54:07]
B
Yeah, it's. It's challenging. I'm sure it is uncomfortable because I'm like, I'm all about bedrotting for a couple days and just, like, not doing anything. And I've done that now for about five days, and I'm like, oh, right, I'm not doing enough. I'm not. And then I'm like, no, you are reaping the benefits of your hard work, and you're resting, and that is okay. Okay.
- [54:26]
A
So can you share a little bit about what's coming?
- [54:31]
B
Yeah, I'm like, I don't know how much I can share. I'll find out if I'm in trouble for this later. But, yeah. I filmed something in Dominican Republic for the last few weeks that was. I swore that I would never do reality TV again unless I was a host or unless it was the Traders. Those were my two rules. And then this opportunity came up, and I was like, like, well, that is very aligned with me and my brand and who I am and what I believe and what makes me happy. And it was just. I couldn't say no, and so I just did that. And it'll probably not even come out until 2027, because it takes a long time to turn stuff like that around. But it's one of those things where I probably can't say too much. But what I will say is it's different. It's definitely different from other things that have been put out there, and there's a lot of familiar faces on it, and I think it's going to be. You talk about sisterhood. I think it's going to, like, show some hard times and then some breakthroughs. And some sisterhood.
- [55:23]
A
That's amazing.
- [55:24]
B
Yeah, it's really cool.
- [55:25]
A
I'm happy to hear that. Do you want to know something fun fact about me?
- [55:28]
B
Yeah.
- [55:29]
A
I got asked to do a reality TV show in my 20s. Yeah. When I was running my first business with my business partner. And this team came out from LA and they.
- [55:37]
B
What is it?
- [55:37]
A
What do they call it?
- [55:38]
B
Sizzle Reel.
- [55:39]
A
Sizzle Reel.
- [55:39]
B
Yeah.
- [55:39]
A
They shot the whole thing. They followed us around for like two weeks and they pitched it to all this now all the networks, and we didn't get a show because we didn't fight enough. Enough. Yeah, there wasn't enough drama.
- [55:50]
B
Yeah, that makes sense.
- [55:51]
A
You know, and like, I. I know it makes sense. And so the reality TV world, I think, could use more light.
- [55:59]
B
Yeah.
- [55:59]
A
Obviously, as you know. And the fact that you share this little clue about what's coming is exciting to me.
- [56:06]
B
There's some dark energy in the show.
- [56:08]
A
I'm sure there is, given who's.
- [56:09]
B
But. Yes, but there is also so much light and. Yeah, I think it'll be different, but I mean, I. I don't know if TV will be successful without drama, which is so crazy.
- [56:19]
A
I know. Know.
- [56:20]
B
But that's what we have, like, other shows for.
- [56:22]
A
That's true.
- [56:22]
B
That's so true. That's like. I put on, like, the silliest, happiest shows for my dogs whenever I leave the house. I'm like, put on Blue's Clues or something.
- [56:29]
A
At least your TV on for your dog.
- [56:31]
B
Such a freak.
- [56:32]
A
I'm obsessed.
- [56:32]
B
I, like, choose different. Like Moanas I. I've decided is one of their favorites.
- [56:36]
A
We have to talk about this offline.
- [56:38]
B
Blue is Clues.
- [56:39]
A
I'm gonna learn all your dog mama notes.
- [56:41]
B
Oh, I'm.
- [56:41]
A
I'm psychotic.
- [56:42]
B
No, I. I've convinced myself that I birthed. I know. Me too.
- [56:46]
A
I actually have.
- [56:47]
B
Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah.
- [56:48]
A
They've come from my womb.
- [56:49]
B
I saw. I saw a headline about myself. Makes me so happy. It was like Caitlin Besso says, like, she's sick of people saying, wait till you have kids. And then the headline is she knows she birthed her dogs. And I was like, yes. No, I think I'm crazy. And I'm like, I don't care.
- [57:07]
A
No, I don't care at all. They are my children. They have just incarnated here with four legs and fur. I truly believe that my one particular dog is my daughter from many, many lives.
- [57:17]
B
That's how I feel about one of my dogs. Yes.
- [57:19]
A
And like, I also saw this video on Instagram recently. Like, I think I was going to repurpose it. Like, dogs are not the same thing as kids. And then it was like, I know, Karen. That's the whole fucking point.
- [57:29]
B
Exactly. Yes, I know. It's so funny. It's. I'm like, yeah, my dogs sleep on my head in my bed, we spoon. I don't. Yeah, I love it. I love it so much.
- [57:40]
A
Nothing better in life.
- [57:41]
B
No. They are my soul dogs.
- [57:42]
A
Caitlin, you are such an open book, babe. You're so both refreshingly authentic and real. Thank you. I want to ask you, is there anything that people would be surprised to hear about you that they don't know?
- [57:57]
B
It's. I wish I had a good answer. Maybe something will come to me. Because I'm like, God, everyone knows everything about me. I'm like, especially if you listen to my podcast. I'm like, people are probably like, we've heard that story 20 times, Caitlin, because how do you not repeat yourself after eight years of podcasting? But hear that.
- [58:11]
A
That.
- [58:11]
B
I think people don't really know the size of my heart. I think I'm like, I put out there like this very tough image or like, I'm definitely a firecracker and I just. I have inappropriate jokes. Like, that is very much me. And I kind of lean into that on Instagram because I think it's funny. But I think people don't know how, like, actually soft hearted I am and like, like, what my days actually look like is probably really different from what people think they do. I think people think I just like get drunk every night and like swim in my pool and like, do weird shit with my dogs. That all happens.
- [58:46]
A
Sure.
- [58:48]
B
But I just. Yeah, I'm like, I'm such a softie who has such a big heart and I. I think I'm like an undercover softie because I don't think people know. And that's okay.
- [58:57]
A
I know.
- [58:58]
B
Yeah. I think the right people should know.
- [58:59]
A
Can I. Let's go back to the first thing I said to you on this podcast. Just full circle moment. I said at the. I follow you. You're funny. You're.
- [59:08]
B
You did say this.
- [59:10]
A
I did. It was your heart.
- [59:12]
B
Yeah. See, light recognizes light, though.
- [59:14]
A
That's right, girl. Yeah, that's. That's what you see in me, is what you see in yourself.
- [59:19]
B
Uh huh. And that's why we trigger a lot of dark people.
- [59:21]
A
Yes. Amen. Retweet.
- [59:22]
B
Yeah, I have.
- [59:24]
A
I have just a few final quick fire questions for you, but I'm adding
- [59:27]
B
in a random one. Okay. I love It.
- [59:29]
A
So when you were talking about your bro, like, how old were you when you were going through that breakup? Were you like, 28?
- [59:34]
B
I was 26. 27. Yeah.
- [59:37]
A
It's like almost your Saturn return.
- [59:38]
B
Yes.
- [59:39]
A
I went through the same exact thing, the same exact time.
- [59:41]
B
Time.
- [59:42]
A
Like, as you were describing that earlier, it's like, I know exactly what that was like. Yeah, I did.
- [59:46]
B
God. Was he a hockey player?
- [59:47]
A
Because same. No, he was. He was a musician. Oh.
- [59:50]
B
Just the same. Worst musician. Musicians and athletes.
- [59:52]
A
Yeah.
- [59:53]
B
If they were like, broken birds.
- [59:55]
A
Yeah. And yes. So you said I did some crazy things when I was like, I'm crazy. But that was crazy. What was the crazy? Can you share, Dude, I'll share mine.
- [60:04]
B
Mine's bad.
- [60:05]
A
Tell me yours and then we'll compare. Now, nuts.
- [60:09]
B
Like, I would have childlike temper tantrums. Like, be on the floor, like, pulling my hair. That's not even. That's like peanuts, right? Compared to what? Like, I would pretend I was gonna jump off a balcony.
- [60:22]
A
Okay.
- [60:23]
B
I wasn't going to. Oh, my God. Everyone just went so silent.
- [60:25]
A
No, I'm sorry. Waiting to tell mine. Because I think that we. We're on.
- [60:29]
B
Literally make him think I would do that, which I. I never would. And I was like, well, maybe he'll love me more if I think I could be gone. Like, what the hell? Tell me yours. Is that bad?
- [60:43]
A
I mean, I have two really bad stories, so. I told you.
- [60:45]
B
I just said that out loud.
- [60:46]
A
Well, now somebody. Now, I asked you a question that nobody has. You haven't shared before. I'm glad we went there.
- [60:51]
B
I. What?
- [60:52]
A
Well, my first boyfriend, I. I lied
- [60:55]
B
and told him I thought I was
- [60:56]
A
pregnant so he wouldn't break up with me.
- [60:58]
B
That was really fucked up.
- [60:59]
A
Yeah, I was, like, 20.
- [61:01]
B
Yeah. Oh, yeah. But, yeah, I think I was 24 when I did this.
- [61:05]
A
Okay, well, I was like, 28 when
- [61:06]
B
I did this one. Okay.
- [61:08]
A
I mean, looking back, it's. It sounds okay. I'm just gonna share it. So we were going through this, like, up breakup where we had broken up, but we weren't. We were still sleeping together. We were still hanging out, but we were sleeping with other people. Like, it was so toxic. And he. He was, like, at a music festival, and I was trying to get a hold of him, and he wouldn't respond to me. And so I drove over to his place and I sat on his front stoop and waited for him to come home.
- [61:39]
B
Oh, that's kind of romantic.
- [61:40]
A
No, it gets really worse. And he. He. We were living in Chicago again. He was a biker and he rode his bike back.
- [61:48]
B
Yeah.
- [61:49]
A
And he rides around the corner, and he sees me sitting on his front stage. Dupe. And he troll it. He looks at me and goes, you're pathetic. And drove off on his bike. And I got in my car and I chased him down the street with my head out the window, screaming at him, like, trying to get him back.
- [62:11]
B
Why do we think that will make them be like, wow, you know what? That's a keeper right there. Why, like, me threatening to jump off a balcony, like. Like, he was probably like, I need to like, get a. A restraining order.
- [62:25]
A
No, clearly, same for me. Yeah. I almost, like, ran him over.
- [62:29]
B
My brain do that to us.
- [62:31]
A
Why love. Love is like such a. It was like. For me, that relationship was like heroin.
- [62:36]
B
Yeah.
- [62:37]
A
But this is crazy.
- [62:38]
B
This is why I'm always in my masculine era, though, because I'm like. I can't be feminine, because as soon as I do, I feel like I'm gonna get hurt like that again. I get it. Yeah.
- [62:47]
A
I mean, I'm married, and I. I, you know, been with my partner for 14 years. 14. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [62:53]
B
That's sweet.
- [62:53]
A
Thank you. I mean, we've been on a journey together, but of course.
- [62:57]
B
14 years. I bet we million. Lived a million lives.
- [63:01]
A
Yeah. But I will tell you, and I don't think I've ever shared this myself. That relationship.
- [63:07]
B
Yeah.
- [63:07]
A
The one.
- [63:08]
B
Right.
- [63:10]
A
Psycho relationship. Broke my heart, shattered my heart. Took me. Me years to heal. And then I met my husband.
- [63:16]
B
Yeah.
- [63:17]
A
And out of 14 years, I think it took me about three years into the relationship to actually open my heart to him. Yeah. Even though we had been engaged married for the. Like, because it's. It's a very real pain.
- [63:31]
B
Yeah.
- [63:32]
A
And it does take a while to fully open your heart again.
- [63:35]
B
It also makes me realize, like, I can go through anything because I'm like, that was the lowest point in my life. And then that was like. Like the. The worst. Okay. Well, then the next time something happens to me, I'm gonna. I'm gonna know, like, this is rock bottom right now, but I know that there's light at the end of the tunnel, like, knowing that you can survive something so awful. Like, I. It always sounds so silly to talk about heartbreak as feeling like. Like the same, as grieving a best friend who died, but it is. But it really, like. And nobody can tell you how grief can feel to you and grief to me. Losing that relationship, like, he. I thought that was my forever. I thought. Because I don't have a job. I don't have this. I emotionally rely on him. I financially rely on him. I love him. And he was just like this bitch, right? He was like, I can't. But he was, like, protecting me too. Like, when. When we broke up, he said, I don't think my life is meant for you. Cause he was a hockey player and I had to just live in Germany with him, and, like, I lost myself. And he was like, I think you're meant for something bigger. So when I went on the Bachelorette, it's like the show him and I used to always watch together. We'd get like a fire stick in Germany to, like, watch the Bachelor Counselor. And he was like, you would.
- [64:42]
A
Did he ever. You ever talked to him again?
- [64:44]
B
Yeah, we. Because I. I reached out, I sent him an email just saying, like, I talked about you a lot on this show. It was kind of therapeutic for me because you were my last relationship. And I, like, rebuilt myself a lot and, like, have, like, obviously baggage that I'm bringing in from this. And I said, but I just want you to know I spoke nothing but highly of you because I actually do believe he's a good guy. Yeah, I said I spoke highly of you. I just wanted you to know. And I think he'd watched a couple episodes and he responded and he goes, I'm just really proud of your. You for being yourself. He's like, you. He goes, all the guys on my team are just like that girl, that's your ex. Because you're being yourself and you're being funny and you. And so it was nice. It was a nice little. That's beautiful. Yeah, it was a cool moment.
- [65:26]
A
Yeah, that's a great moment.
- [65:27]
B
Yeah.
- [65:28]
A
You're sharing all.
- [65:29]
B
I was like, so. Good thing I didn't jump off that belt.
- [65:32]
A
Good thing I didn't run you over,
- [65:34]
B
otherwise I wouldn't be here. And that is my message for women today.
- [65:37]
A
Yeah. Don't go to jail, don't die.
- [65:39]
B
Don't be the crazy lady. And know your work. That's right. Amen.
- [65:43]
A
A few final questions for you. Yes. Okay. So do you have a favorite business book or a favorite spiritual book?
- [65:50]
B
Oh, gosh, yes. What is that? Light is the New Black by Rebecca Campbell.
- [65:55]
A
Awesome.
- [65:56]
B
That helped me get out of my relationship from my Bachelorette fiance relationship. That book, I listened to it on. I was hyperventilating, crying, and I put on that book and I did like a six hour drive somewhere and I listened to it, and it was like. Like a pivotal moment for me. Into a spiritual journey. I believe it. So that book, for sure, she's great. Yeah.
- [66:17]
A
Do you believe in aliens?
- [66:18]
B
Yeah.
- [66:18]
A
Yay. Good. Because I am one.
- [66:22]
B
You guys think I am one.
- [66:23]
A
You actually are. You look like. Like I was going to tell you. You have a total Pleiadian face.
- [66:27]
B
I do, right?
- [66:28]
A
100%.
- [66:29]
B
Yeah.
- [66:30]
A
You're totally cosmic.
- [66:31]
B
Yes. You know that? Yes, I do.
- [66:32]
A
Yeah.
- [66:33]
B
Yeah.
- [66:33]
A
We can talk about that more often.
- [66:34]
B
Okay.
- [66:34]
A
But that's, like, the premise of my show. Do you have, like. Do you work. I love that you've very much on the spiritual journey yourself. Do you work with any, like, particular spirit guide or angel or.
- [66:45]
B
Oh, yes, tell me. I have. This was another part of my. I went to this place called the Hoffman Institute, and it's seven days of, like, inner child work. And I did so many visualizations of like, like my, like, spirit guides and angels and so many things, but that none of them have faces. Sure. Also, I went to Hawaii after this retreat because I was like, I'm on such a high vibration right now. Like, I do. I do not want to come down. And I went to Hawaii and I looked up anyone who does, like, spiritual blessings on relationships, and this man who's, like, very well known in Hawaii does these spiritual blessings on new marriages. And I went.
- [67:25]
A
Went.
- [67:26]
B
Well, I'm choosing my marriage with myself, so could you do a spiritual blessing on my relationship with me? And he was like, yeah. And I went out into the water with him and it was like, sunny for however many days straight. The rain just started pouring down, and he was calling my ancestors, and all these sea turtles just came to my feet. And he was even like, wait, I. Am I magic? And I was like, not him. Because I was just like, holy shit. I've just worked on this for so many days. And it was just like. And then I remember looking out into the ocean and a whale just, like, came up and died. And I was just like, what the fuck? Yeah. And I feel like from that moment on, like, I just see. I see. When I visualize, like, spirit guides and stuff, it's very much like, like, feminine energy with lights for faces. Like just a bright light.
- [68:15]
A
I see it.
- [68:16]
B
Yeah.
- [68:17]
A
What a story. They're. That's so coded. Oh, so magic.
- [68:21]
B
And I was just like, I think I need to move to Hawaii. And then I had to go back.
- [68:24]
A
But do you. Well, as we often do. Do you feel something shifted after that moment?
- [68:29]
B
Yeah. Oh, yes. I just.
- [68:31]
A
It sounds like it must have been.
- [68:32]
B
So many little things have happened in my life where I'm like, like I remember specifically talking to the moon one night. And when I talked to the moon, everything that I talked to it about just like fell into place that week. Like, I was like, hello?
- [68:45]
A
Yeah.
- [68:46]
B
And then I was like, oh, the moon is my God. And like so many things, the more I open myself up to those beliefs and like, see it, and the more I like, get on the right paths. I've done a lot of spiritual things. I've never done like ayahuasca or anything like that, but a lot of spiritual things. But that one, yeah. Was a big shift for me because I was like, I was looking to end a relationship, my last relationship. And I'm like, I'm searching way too hard for signs. Like that is the signiest sign of all signs that I'm searching as hard for a sign. Like, that's it. The clarity for me was in the confusion. And that's, that's something that like, really broke me free. I was like, okay, the clarity is in the confusion. Like, I should not be this confused. And that was like all these signs just kept being like, look how light and free you could be when you're away and when you're just with you.
- [69:34]
A
Yes.
- [69:34]
B
And now I love being with me.
- [69:36]
A
It's the best, right? Yeah, it is best.
- [69:38]
B
And you can be with yourself in relationships. Like, you just have to find that time.
- [69:41]
A
Yeah. And you have to find the right
- [69:42]
B
person and the right person. God. Yes. That's a big yes. Yeah.
- [69:46]
A
Bless my husband for giving me all the autonomy that I need.
- [69:49]
B
Oh, good. Yeah, that's very helpful.
- [69:50]
A
It's a real thing. Last question for you, baby. Do you know the term New Earth?
- [69:56]
B
Yes.
- [69:56]
A
Like, how do you define New Earth?
- [69:58]
B
Like, I don't want to say it because I don't know if I'm. There's no, I've heard the term new Earth, but I'm thinking like a new way of thinking. Like new souls, new. I don't know. Explain it to me.
- [70:10]
A
I'll frame it for you. I, I, I write about this in my book.
- [70:13]
B
Okay.
- [70:13]
A
I believe we're living in the new Earth right now.
- [70:15]
B
Yeah.
- [70:16]
A
It is basically a heart led consciousness. Okay. Yeah. You know, versus a mind. Like consciousness, like mind, ego, heart, love. Yeah. And when we live from the heart, we create a different reality that is available to us at all times in every thought, belief, word, action, interaction. And it's a world where we all win. It's a world we all thrive. It's a world where we're all, all safe.
- [70:40]
B
You Think we're living in that.
- [70:41]
A
I think we can co create it.
- [70:42]
B
I think it's because I think I'm living it. I think some people are living in it.
- [70:46]
A
Most people are not.
- [70:47]
B
Yeah.
- [70:47]
A
But the third dimension, like I call it like 5D consciousness versus 3D.
- [70:53]
B
Yeah.
- [70:54]
A
You know, 3D reality is rooted in polarity which is like fear, survival, me versus you, etc. So my last question is, and I love that you, you speak this language, you're like, I'm living in it. What do you think it means to you to be a co creator of it?
- [71:11]
B
Yeah. So I love that you said that because I have a intuitive coach that I see every once in a while and she is so big on that chakra of like living through the heart and how. Because in my last relationship it was very much like I don't think he did it on purpose. I think he's just so logical. And he was in finance for nine years and numbers make sense to him and he sees things very black and white and it was very confusing to me because. Because I like don't think up here, I think here and I just saw him really believing that you want to get to the top of a ladder and like you need to be at the top and you need to have this money and this and this success and be the biggest of this. And I was like, oh, that just doesn't feel right with me. And I'd always go back to these coaching sessions with her name's Courtney. She's amazing. And she would always be like something is shifting in our world where we are going to be rewarded from living from the heart and not from the ego. And she goes, so just stay on that path because in little ways over time you're going to start seeing it. But people who live from their hearts will be rewarded. And that was about four years ago. I want to say that she told me that and I've just really been looking for other people who live like that and believing that that is, is a possibility. The Internet scares me cuz I go, oh, I don't know that happening anytime soon but. But it, I mean dark, you got to look for the light. So have to look for the light. You are a light.
- [72:44]
A
Thank you. So are you. It's so good. It was so good to have you.
- [72:47]
B
Thank you. Thank you for having me. This was. I could talk about this all.
- [72:50]
A
We'll talk, we'll keep talking. This was amazing. For all of your honesty and authenticity think and humor but most of all your heart.
- [73:00]
B
Thank you.
- [73:01]
A
Told you you said it right from the Gap Judge.
- [73:04]
B
You forget us.
- [73:04]
A
Very nice.
- [73:05]
B
Thank you.
- [73:06]
A
Thank you for seeing me. Thank you for being here.
- [73:09]
B
Yeah, I love what you're. Doing.