← The Spiritual Hustler
The Spiritual Hustler
The Cosmic Codes of Motherhood, Healing Your Lineage and Loving Yourself First with Dr. Gertrude Lyons
00:49:45
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- [00:02]
Jessica Zweig
Welcome to the Spiritual Hustler podcast. I'm your host, Jessica Zweig, multi seven figure serial entrepreneur, best selling author and branding and business coach. And this is a show where we are redefining the word hustle, reclaiming our true feminine nature of magnetism and putting down the self judgments and shame around loving to work and making a lot of money at it. On this show, you're going to learn how to stop hustling and start spiritually hustling. By pressing play, you are now part of a new movement of women who don't hustle for money. We hustle for meaning. We don't hustle from lack. We hustle for love. We don't hustle from survival. We hustle for humanity's thriving. We hustle toward healing the ancestral programming of fear and step into a new understanding of safety in the body to receive this shift isn't going to only heal your life, it's going to make you a whole lot richer too. This is the Spiritual Hustler podcast. Well, hello my beautiful spiritual hustlers and welcome back to the podcast. I hope that wherever this conversation finds you today, no matter what you're doing, what you're thinking, wherever life is leading you, that you take a minute to love yourself. I know that sounds too simple, maybe too cheesy, but really, you guys, sisters, lightworker women that I know, listen to my podcast. Loving ourselves is our job. And we have been conditioned, programmed and pretty much celebrated frankly for loving everyone else first in our lives, whether that's our businesses, which is its own entity. It's maybe your children, your family, your partner, your home, your community, your animals, your nieces, your nephews, whatever that looks like, your parents. We don't really stop to consider the power of loving ourselves, nourishing ourselves, giving to ourselves, mothering ourselves first. And you know, if you've been listening to this show for a while, welcome back. If you new, welcome. I'm so happy you're here. We talk about really the intersection of the two words of this podcast, the spiritual and the hustle and the spiritual context. We explore what it means to be a spiritual being, having a human experience inside of a woman's body and all of the practices and technologies and beliefs and quantum systems and journeys that we can take to evolve our spiritual soul while we're having this human experience. And we unpack it all in so many amazing ways. And then of course, we talk about the hustle and not the old paradigm hustle, but the new hustle. And to stand proudly as a Woman who wants to make money, who wants to expand her business, who wants to work hard, who loves what she does and wants to make a difference. And we anchor all of that in the divine feminine power that we have as women in business who are awake and connected and on purpose. And one of our greatest codes as women is our mother code. And whether or not you have children, born babies through your birth canal, or you have birthed and created other things in the world besides children, my guest today is here to say to all of us, we all mother, we all are mothers. And most importantly, we have to learn how to self mother in a new paradigm that will really heal the world. Truly, my guest today has not only been a movement birther, she's just launched her brand new book rewrite, the Mother Code From Sacrifice to Stardust A Cosmic Approach to Motherhood. She's one of my longest standing, cherished friends. Not only was she my client at Simply Be Agency, I was her client. And through our work and our relationship together, together we have both changed each other's lives. Dr. Gertrude Lyons, who is a visionary in the realms of self mothering, holistic women's empowerment, deep relationship transformation, with 25 years of experience under her belt, came into my agency In, I think 2018, 19, 2017, I can't even remember. But she had no platform, she had no message. She had just graduated with her doctorate in motherhood, wrote a thesis on the new paradigm of motherhood, smashing societal and cultural norms around what it meant to mother, and really came to us to help her formulate her brand. And I'll never forget this, and maybe you've read the book Big Magic by Elizabeth Gilbert, where she talks about how ideas and creativity, kind of an inspiration comes from the quantum realm. And we get seeds planted in our consciousness that are either for us to birth or maybe for someone else to birth. And we had just started working with Gertrude. I love telling this story. And she was, you know, in my office, we were working with her team and on calls. And anyway, she was in my mind. And I was going to bed one night. This was in the first few months of our engagement. We ended up working with Gertrude for like five, six years. This was the very beginning. And I was going to bed in my Wicker park apartment in Chicago and my husband was sleeping next to me. I'll never forget this. He was already sleeping. And I was about to turn the lamp off on my bedside table and put my head down on the pillow and go to sleep. So I did that, actually. I put my head down on the pillow in the dark. I was about to fall asleep, and I heard the words Rewrite the Mother Code for Gertrude. I was like, that's it. That's her brand. And I sat back up, I turned the lamp back on, and I wrote it down on my notebook next to my bed. And I went back to bed. And the next day, I sent her an email, or might have called her, I don't even know. I was so excited. I was like, I think I got your brand name. And I shared it with her. And she was like, oh, my God, this is it. And she took it and she trademarked it. We helped her build her entire website around it, her podcast, her Instagram, and now she's written a book called Rewrite the Mother Code. And it's just so wild and powerful to know that you could have left an imprint on someone else's business like that. And it was so full circle for her to come onto my podcast to celebrate the birthing of Rewrite the Mother Code, her book. And it was also full circle for so many reasons, was because, as I mentioned, I was her client. I ended up hiring Gertrude as my coach. And we worked together right at this inflection point of whether or not I was deciding to have children. And this is a conversation I haven't talked about too much. I've shared to some degree my journey or with my decision to not be a quote, unquote mom of babies in this life. And I'm very clear in that choice today. It took me a long time to get here, guys. It's been actually really nuanced and painful and also beautiful. And it was Gertrude, truly, back in the day of 2018, 19, when we started to work together, that completely shifted my entire perspective on it. And we talk about that today. We go deep into not obviously our own connection, but what this whole journey of mothering means to you. She is a really magical human being that is so here to guide you lovingly to reclaim the art of mothering, whether you bear children or not. She does this through her Rewrite the Mother Code podcast. She has beautiful retreats that she hosts across the world. She offers one to one coaching. She's reaching thousands of new people now through this book, which I cannot encourage you enough to go pick up. It is poetry, it is academic, it is her personal story. She talks about me in the book. She. She uses my name. She asked me for my permission so you'll learn more about my journey in the book. And she's really here to empower women Just as I am to rewrite their story of how we nurture and love and thrive. And in order to build a thriving business and to have the success that I know you all come here to learn how to do with more strategy and precision and tactics, we have to start within. And I don't believe there is a more powerful code than the mother code because we are women. And I just so celebrate Dr. Gertrude today and every day for being the leading voice in this conversation. And so, without further ado, here is my conversation with the truly formidable thought leader, Dr. Gertrude Lyons. Let's take in this moment because it's so full circle, so beautiful. You have been such a freaking teacher and light and guide and inspiration and friend to me. And the fact that you've written this book, which we're going to talk about and the title, we got to tell the story. I know, but I'm just so happy to have you on my show, Gertrude. I'm just so excited and proud of you for this moment.
- [09:32]
Dr. Gertrude Lyons
Well, I could not feel more blessed, honored, like as literally just want to like, take it all in and, and be here, you know, be carefully with you and.
- [09:45]
Jessica Zweig
Well, let's bless our audience today with this beautiful message that you have put into a book. But before we get into that, I want to ask you my very first question, my first official question I ask every guest, which is what are you currently spiritually hustling for? Gertrude?
- [10:02]
Dr. Gertrude Lyons
I would. First thing that comes to mind, I'm spiritually hustling for a paradigm shift, you know, for a shift in the culture. I'm focusing on mothering and motherhood culture, but it's bigger than that because to me it's an honoring of feminine values, you know, divine feminine, but that we start to break down the limiting beliefs, walls, barriers, anything that's in our way of having the most personal, the most uniquely our own, the most like from our intuitive, deepest self mothering experience. And I know we're going to get more into what all that means, but I'm hustling a message, you know, I'm, I'm hustling something that I hope, you know, takes fire, a revolution, you know, whatever it takes. Because I want this so much personally for every person that resonates with it, to have this experience because I believe it's world changing.
- [11:08]
Jessica Zweig
It is.
- [11:08]
Dr. Gertrude Lyons
I do. I really believe that.
- [11:10]
Jessica Zweig
I believe it too. I know it to be true. You know, you mentioned. Thank you for answering it with that paradigm shift because it's that big of a message and I just want to share with my audience, my paradigm shift with you. I think it's important to share this and talk about this. It's not something I talk about very often. You know, my journey and decision to not have children. And at 43, I'm pretty much 99.9% decided that that won't be a part of my life. Babies raising children.
- [11:46]
Dr. Gertrude Lyons
Yeah.
- [11:47]
Jessica Zweig
And when I met you, I was, I think I was, like, 36 or 37. So coming into my late 30s, almost early 40s. I'd been married to Brian for a few years. My career had really exploded. My agency had taken off beyond what I had expected. And I was like, really? In the question of, do I want them? Do I don't want them? And I couldn't answer it. And I thought there was something really wrong with me because I. I couldn't see myself as one of the women that I'm so close to. All my friends who, like, are desperate to be moms and went through in vitro and, like, the whole egg freezing and just are having babies, loving motherhood. Like, I didn't. Didn't want that path. It was clear. But I couldn't be, like, I don't want them. It's not that. That doesn't feel true. And I came into your work in that exact inflection point.
- [12:40]
Dr. Gertrude Lyons
Oh, you're making me cry.
- [12:41]
Jessica Zweig
I just cried.
- [12:41]
Dr. Gertrude Lyons
Like, I'm, you know, just. I know this, but it just moves me so much to see how we were there for each other's birthing. It really was a moment birthing of.
- [12:53]
Jessica Zweig
This book and all of this and again, so full circle to have you here, but you coming into my life changed my entire reality, framework, self image on my relationship to mothering. And I don't want to say it like this is your thought leadership, but, like.
- [13:21]
Dr. Gertrude Lyons
And we'll have plenty of time.
- [13:23]
Jessica Zweig
Well, I. I'm. I'm a mother. I. Mother, you're making me cry. I. Well, we're gonna. I got my makeup done today. I can't cry at all. But you gave me. I wouldn't even say the permission to say that. You gave me the understanding that I could say that in my full truth. And all of my heartache and all of my confusion and all of my remorse, like, dissipated in working with you. And so some people might hear this, listening, who are new to your work, who know I don't have kids and might have just paused. As I said just now, I'm a mother, and maybe even have a reaction to it, maybe be triggered by it, maybe don't fully get it. So I want to pass the mic to you and to your work. We can even go back to your trip in Asia when you had this revelation. You know, you got your doctorate in motherhood and you wrote really like a dissertation on this new paradigm of motherhood. And I want to leave it to you to explain this new paradigm that women are being invited into with this book.
- [14:44]
Dr. Gertrude Lyons
Well, thank you. But first, thank you for your vulnerability, for your openness, you know, to share something. And that's one of the things I'm hoping to break down, is that these things aren't so like, ah, you know, like you can't say that or that isn't like these reactions we have about the narrow definition of mothering that separates us. That, you know, you, you did have pushback when you declared this and had it open.
- [15:11]
Jessica Zweig
And people unfollow me when I started talking about it on social media.
- [15:14]
Dr. Gertrude Lyons
Yeah, like it triggered a lot of pain. This is because, you know, we've been so and so much of what the book, why it's called Rewrite, the mother code is. There's a code out there that needs to be rewritten and it's happened over thousands of years and it happens within our families. The wiring for the beliefs that we have that give us this narrow picture, like, well, a mother is only that role, that identity of giving birth to children.
- [15:50]
Jessica Zweig
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- [18:56]
Dr. Gertrude Lyons
You know, and it's, it's worked very well for the masculine dominated value system, you know, that we're in to, to limit us because you know, what we're opening up to is, you know, you opening up to that power of like that mother energy, that mother space. I mean, I witnessed, I mean you can speak for yourself, but it was, it, it just kind of blew the doors open.
- [19:23]
Jessica Zweig
It blew the doors open.
- [19:24]
Dr. Gertrude Lyons
It's like, oh, it's kind of a coming home. It is like a coming home to an aspect of ourselves that just shut up in that, you know. Well, your purpose here on earth, women is to, you know, carry and spit out babies. And you know, if you're not doing that, you know, then I mean, and that's what broke my heart when I started studying and working on this was to hear women who were doing magnificent things in their lives. Like I threw. So just, I'm, I might circle around a bit here but to go back to like the studying of it, I set out to study and be with and this was out of my own awarenesses and having done mothering a certain way you know, consciously, but really losing track of what the transformational opportunity is in mothering. And my first thoughts were like, you know, pretty focused on the, the mothering of children. Right. Like, how do I get. Give the message that oh, just that activity can be more than we're led to believe it is, right. And the narrow and put yourself in the equation and mother yourself when you're doing that and you can learn and grow and heal and grow up with each all these aspects to it. Right. And. But I was always really struck with and you know, the first time I heard like, well, we all mother. You know, we all conceive, create, give birth to children if we choose. But careers, ideas, dreams, pets, you know, anything we put our creative mother energy into, we're mothering. But the most important person we need to mother is ourselves, right? And I, I kind of threw that out there in. When I was doing my. I, I did a study of a curriculum. I put together a curriculum to raise women's awareness and I kind of like tossed that in there as part of it. Well, that was what had so much grab because the women that were in my study, I purposely chose women who didn't have, hadn't chosen to have children. They may, they were at different paths, but none of them had children yet. Because you're in a different mindset if you cross over into that. So hearing their stories, hearing how like, well, it doesn't matter that I've built this beautiful design creative build agency and have all these employees and all that. I'm really the only thing that really matters if I. Is if I can find a man and have a child. Like, this is all like, yeah. And I was like, oh, okay, this needs to change. This really needs to change. They kind of interweave themselves, you know, in that way. But seeing how much that is, then it, you know, wasn't in the. Until, you know, I started sharing that more and more. Working, you know, with, with women like you to, to that I really more and more got to see like, oh no, this isn't just like a nice little add on. This is groundbreaking changing. I'm not saying I came up with the idea that we all mother. Like, that's universal wisdom, right? Like, that's a cosmic code. I name it as a cosmic code. Like, this is stuff that comes through us and once we hear it, we're like, duh. Like, of course this is true. Right?
- [22:43]
Jessica Zweig
Yes.
- [22:43]
Dr. Gertrude Lyons
I may have feelings about it, their resistance, but the only thing that resistance is, is our wiring and we can shift that we have to. And we'll learn a lot. We'll learn why we come to feel hesitant about what that means and, you know, what the beliefs are around that.
- [23:01]
Jessica Zweig
So. Wow.
- [23:02]
Dr. Gertrude Lyons
I think I answered. You did. You got there in a number of different ways.
- [23:06]
Jessica Zweig
Triple click into so many. You said so many things there. I mean, it's, it's really important for the women, at least in my community, that are so ambitious and driven professionally. And many of the women, I actually surveyed my audience about a year and a half ago and like 70, 80% of them are moms. Isn't that amazing?
- [23:26]
Dr. Gertrude Lyons
Yeah.
- [23:26]
Jessica Zweig
And I'm not a mom, but like. But. Right, but. But I think there's something about that same, same frequency of like, wanting to grow yourself.
- [23:36]
Dr. Gertrude Lyons
Right.
- [23:36]
Jessica Zweig
Whether you're a mom or you're not a mom. I think when we sign up to be female entrepreneurs or, you know, signing up to motherhood, we're signing up for mother. And that's what I wanted to triple click into because I remember our conversations and I was like, I'm on the fence and there is something wrong with this fence. And I'm looking at this fence and I have to fix the fence and I have to make a decision to go on this side of the fence or the other side of the fence. And you were like, jessica, look at your life. Look at, look around you. You have this beautiful business. I had a lot of young women on my team that were like early 20s that were with me for like seven, eight years, some of them. And I, I got to grow them, I got to coach and mentor them and mother them in my own way as their boss. Even though that sounds like maybe a crossing a boundary, like, it served my soul to nurture, like, the next generation. Right. And then I was like, wow, I have nephews and I have a niece. And like, they're my blood and I feel my influence in their life, like, making a difference. And then I have my animals and then I have my husband who I sometimes have to mother, and then the earth and I get to tend to that. And like. And you really just gave me again. And I think you're giving, hopefully everyone listening this, like, new aperture to really come home to our essence. Like our true code as women who birth the universe. Like, we have sacred technology here that can fuel its way into so many aspects. And yet to your point that I wanted to click into is the self mothering piece. It's like the last on our list. And is that because of like, Like, I want to talk about, like, the Mother wound and where that comes from us generationally, how do we address it? What does it look like in action? Because whether you're listening, you have kids or not, like that's I think one of our biggest assignments. So how do we, what does self mothering really mean and look like?
- [25:49]
Dr. Gertrude Lyons
Yeah, well, I'll start with what you touched on with the mother wound. Right. Like every person on this planet has a mother, you know, at the, you know, you were born, you know, you were in a womb to be here, be here. We can go into a lot of like how that, you know, my beliefs on how that comes about and our choice, there's, we've made choices, you know, to come through. Like we chose the womb that we, you know, were meant to be in. And our soul, our spirit, however, if you're willing to look at it that way, knew that this was the perfect right womb for your development, for your soul's like ongoing development. So that's my belief. Right. And but either way, you know, you're going to have this experience with. And even if you come through that womb and are ferried off somewhere else and you grow up with a caregiver, all of those spaces, you were in that space for nine months. And you know what studies have shown more, even more so, which I think is beautiful and fascinating is we can, it seems obvious that like the atmosphere, the emotions, the kind of state of health, mental, physical, spiritual, that a woman is in when she's carrying a child. Even if you go back to moment of conception, but it happens before that, like our spirit is taking it, They've done studies on it. This is evidence based. Now this isn't like some woo concept that we are impacted by the months, years, the life atmosphere of the vessel that carries us. And I'm tying this to self mothering because in our culture we kind of think, oh, I think we want to have a baby, we want to start conceiving. Oh, I better start taking prenatal vitamins. Oh, now I'll start taking care of myself. Now maybe a few of the designated things that we've been told, like you should do if you want to try and get pregnant. That one always cracks me up. The pregnancy vitamins thing is like somehow that message got through like so strong. I gotta take prenatal vitamins.
- [28:04]
Jessica Zweig
It's like, no, you really just have.
- [28:05]
Dr. Gertrude Lyons
Always needed to take care of yourself. But that leads right to the, oh, maybe it didn't matter if I took care of myself before. But now we shift right into the well, I'LL do that for this child, you know, for someone else.
- [28:24]
Jessica Zweig
I've never thought about that.
- [28:25]
Dr. Gertrude Lyons
Yeah. Like for isn't it?
- [28:27]
Jessica Zweig
I know it's eye opening.
- [28:29]
Dr. Gertrude Lyons
It's both heartbreaking and eye opening, but I think amazing.
- [28:34]
Jessica Zweig
Right.
- [28:34]
Dr. Gertrude Lyons
So it's why I want to get the message to as young of women as I can to understand taking care of yourself is valuable, important. You're going to need it your whole life through whatever choices you decide, whatever you mother, because you're self mothering. So if you're doing personal work, this mother wound work, the unraveling of whatever atmosphere you grew up in, you know, you could say, oh my God, I had the most loving, wonderful mother. Nobody's perfect.
- [29:06]
Jessica Zweig
Right.
- [29:07]
Dr. Gertrude Lyons
And looking at both and discerning what did I like, what didn't I like. That helps lead us to discern what our mother code's going to be because we're either going to just, well, it was nice, I'll just do what she did or it was awful. I'm going to do. I'm going to do everything. Not what my mother did. Then you're just reactive mother and you're going to swing the pendulum. Right. So so much of it is the smothering is being mindful about those Emerson and making choices that align with our values, with our desire, our deep desires and with our intuitive sense. And then we can back all that up with science because it's all backed up by science.
- [29:44]
Jessica Zweig
It is all backed up by science. No, it's wild.
- [29:47]
Dr. Gertrude Lyons
Yeah.
- [29:47]
Jessica Zweig
That is so wild. I've never, I didn't know that and I've never thought about that. And it's such a insanely accurate metaphor for like how we really do put ourselves last until it's dire.
- [30:01]
Dr. Gertrude Lyons
Yeah.
- [30:01]
Jessica Zweig
Or there's some sort of urgent need or reason or justification versus just making that our baseline. And I mean, so many people know my story. I mean I've been very open about like my burnout story and just how I ran my body into the ground working, mothering my fucking team and my business and my books and everything else but me. And I really would love to get your perspective actually on. You know, I talk a lot about the patriarchy and it really wasn't until I went to Egypt and like came back from that trip and like looked at what I had done to myself and realized how I had internalized patriarchy. Like as a business leader and so much of your work. I mean it's so funny. Like we, we just did have some tech difficulties because there's like Things in the ether that are like, don't you. This message is too threatening for the masses to hear. But I do think that more than anywhere, our patriarchal impact is in the.
- [31:06]
Dr. Gertrude Lyons
Way that we mother 100%. It's so generational. Right. We have thousands of years of looking at, you know, the ancestors that we can see not taking care of themselves, not putting themselves first, the level of devaluation we've had on the care work. Because that's what I wanted to say when you said that about burnout. It's kind of like, care out. Like, I've just. We burn ourselves out because we care so freaking much.
- [31:37]
Jessica Zweig
That's so good.
- [31:39]
Dr. Gertrude Lyons
We do. Right? And you care about the message that you're putting out. You care about all these people. Yes. You know, you. You care about your safety, your security financially. Like, all of that, like, is stem from caring. But we've been so programmed not to value that and not to see that as the. The caring essence that it is. That, yes, it's patriarchal and yes, the. The forces don't want us to know this because we're so freaking powerful.
- [32:13]
Jessica Zweig
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- [34:01]
Dr. Gertrude Lyons
Right. I mean, the only reason they'd have to so systematically and I Say they, we're all part of it. We've all bought into it. You know, it's, this is, this is not like, well, if you guys all changed, we'd be fine. You know, we've, we've co created this, but we're the only ones that can really get us out of it.
- [34:18]
Jessica Zweig
Agreed.
- [34:18]
Dr. Gertrude Lyons
I give us that responsibility. But it's really hard when it's been so wired in for this long and you know, we're better off, so much better off that we can even make some of the choices we can make than, you know, 50 years ago, a hundred years ago, and then, you know, before this all got going in the times before patriarchy came in where. Because what we're going for here is egalitarian. Right. We're not. We might need to get a little over matriarchal for a bit to like rebalance. And I honestly think over matriarchal is going to be a whole heck of a lot better for everybody. Could not agree more because to me, it's like the masculines should be in service of the feminine and they can work together so beautifully. They need to if how we get that threat to, not that safety and security. And it's become such the way it is that now any other way just feels so unknown. It's scary. You know, we're all kind of scared of it, right. So we're all gonna kind of hunker down in some way or another. And just like you were saying, we're continuing to learn. Oh my God. That's another way I've been buying into, you know, been perpetuating the patriarchy completely and living by masculine values.
- [35:35]
Jessica Zweig
It's really wild once you start to see it. You can't unsee it.
- [35:38]
Dr. Gertrude Lyons
No. And it's everywhere.
- [35:40]
Jessica Zweig
It's everywhere.
- [35:42]
Dr. Gertrude Lyons
The mother code does kind of equate to patriarchy, but it's, you know, it's there. Yeah, it is. Because it's those, it's any code that limits us that. And it just so happens that those are a predominant amount of the limiting. Keep you down, don't value your care, work, don't value these aspects of yourself. And I mean, men have mother energy too. There's as much for them to gain.
- [36:07]
Jessica Zweig
Yeah.
- [36:08]
Dr. Gertrude Lyons
And everybody wins when it's honored.
- [36:10]
Jessica Zweig
I completely love that. I mean, I love what you said about the matriarchal kind of coming back and it doesn't have to dominate it, but it should dominate for a little while until we like, you know, and I've done a lot of research on the matriarchy, myself in my own work. And like, as you're talking, you know, women were, you know, the God was a woman, it was the goddess. Like, we worshiped the Great Mother as our holiest being. And women were, you know, we come into this life with the sacred technology of our wombs and yonis and psychic intuitive abilities and were able to commune with like the cosmos and the earth and be those channels and had all of these different medicines and gifts. But like, in no story that at least I've read did the goddess not honor herself.
- [36:56]
Dr. Gertrude Lyons
Right.
- [36:57]
Jessica Zweig
Like, you just unlocked that for me. It's like, this is our true design and patriarchy and systems has just ripped that understanding away from us. Like in like amnesia and a book like yours. I mean, it's so much more than like, let me, let me help you reframe motherhood. It's like, how do I help you reframe your existence at this time in the world as a woman? I'm so struck by your title, From Sacrifice to Stardust, A Cosmic Approach to Motherhood. You have the word stardust and cosmic in there. You know, like, rang all my bells, like, made me so happy. But like, what does that. Because I really want people to get into this book and really go through it because it's so coded with so many poems and frameworks and descriptions and personal stories and you tell my story in the book. It's like so good. But let's just start with that. Like, why that title?
- [38:00]
Dr. Gertrude Lyons
It was a journey, you know, for sure. And I'll share some of the specifics. But when my publisher, Kristin McGinnis asked me, like, what's the message, you know, you want to give? And she remembers it luckily, because I go all over the place. It's so many things, but she always brings me back to what she said. What struck me so much about what you said is I, I want women to see, to move from seeing motherhood, mothering as sacrifice to self realization and to see the self realization aspect. So, okay, like that, you know, that everybody can kind of, you know, acclimate to. Right. I'm not saying stardust yet. Right. Self realization, growth, knowing yourself. But it turns out that knowing yourself is spiritual. You know, knowing yourself is. Once we can peel away those codes, then we have access to the stardust to the fact, you know, and it's, yes, cosmic, like out there, but it isn't out there, it's in here, you know, and reconnecting to that. We are children of the universe, that we are made from Stardust, that we are all connected, that we have these beautiful designs as you're talking about. So from sacrifice, everything we were just talking about patriarchal domination, male values, all of that is housed in that. Like, we just have to sacrifice ourselves. Like we are sacrificing our well being, sacrificing our desires, sacrificing. And it never works. There's a difference between sacrifice and unconditional love. You know, there's. When we're giving love, but sacrifice is, ooh, I'm having to set aside me and what matters to me in order to what I think is gonna benefit everybody else. But that just gives a less you. It gives. And the stardust to me also is that it leads you to that present moment, connection.
- [40:05]
Jessica Zweig
Your resonance is so beautiful, Richard. So it's genuinely from your core and your soul and what you're really here to remind women to remember about themselves. I just wanted to reflect that.
- [40:18]
Dr. Gertrude Lyons
Thank you. I hugely appreciate that. Because it's a journey.
- [40:22]
Jessica Zweig
I know it is.
- [40:22]
Dr. Gertrude Lyons
Like, you kind of know it's there and it's like. So when it came to figuring out this subtitle, this was one of them that came up. A Cosmic approach to Motherhood. And I got, I was like, like, well, that's just going to turn off a whole bunch of people. You know, they're going to see cosmic. And it's. This has to appeal to a broad audience. And so I said this again, you know, to my publisher. I'm like, maybe that's just a little too out there. And she's like, gertrude, I'm going to be mean Kristen right now.
- [40:54]
Jessica Zweig
You need a good, honest publisher.
- [40:55]
Dr. Gertrude Lyons
You need a good, honest publisher. She's like, I'm going to be mean Kristen. If you're not willing to put in the title, don't write a book about it.
- [41:02]
Jessica Zweig
Oh, my God.
- [41:04]
Dr. Gertrude Lyons
Whoa. Like, stab me in the heart. Okay. Like, yes.
- [41:08]
Jessica Zweig
Thank you for the honest.
- [41:09]
Dr. Gertrude Lyons
Thank you for the honesty. And it was true. It's like, I. This was an invitation for me to live into it and really own what that is. And if it, whoever it turns off, they're not my audience, you know, or maybe it's an invitation or maybe there's, you know, who knows? But I had to be true to myself and she helped. That's why we need other women in our lives. Women supporting people supporting us that hold the vision. When we get kind of like, I don't know, that might feel a little out there even for me. It's okay that it's in there, but we'll let it sneak up on them.
- [41:42]
Jessica Zweig
Yes.
- [41:42]
Dr. Gertrude Lyons
It's like. No, just. Just put it right out there. You know, just, like, put it in the title.
- [41:47]
Jessica Zweig
I have the word cosmic in my subtitle, too. On the light bulb. We're like twins. But you have a yoni on your cover. I do.
- [41:55]
Dr. Gertrude Lyons
I do. The book cover Evolution Beautif. Thank you. Yes. We. I wanted all these things, and I wanted it to, like, resonate and have its own energy. And whether you read the book or not, I wanted the COVID to, like, have a. Have an impact. And it took a. Like, the designers. It start. It looked like a pomegranate or radish at birth. So I'm like, can you stretch that out?
- [42:16]
Jessica Zweig
Like, it's definitely a work in progress.
- [42:18]
Dr. Gertrude Lyons
Yeah, it's a seed, but we'll. You know, we wanted to have a little more of what it really is. Like, Beautiful. Thank you.
- [42:26]
Jessica Zweig
It's so you.
- [42:27]
Dr. Gertrude Lyons
Thank you.
- [42:28]
Jessica Zweig
I want to ask you somebody that, you know, was on a lot of podcasts myself, promoting my book. Like, it's so vast. Like, the work that you have offered in this book, it's so rich, and it has so many things women couldn't take away from it. But my question for you, which was a question I got that I loved Challenging ones. No, I'm. I'm kidding. When your reader puts the book down, she's written, she's read every page, cover to cover, and she closes the book. She's done. What's the one thing that you want her to know about herself?
- [43:08]
Dr. Gertrude Lyons
Well, I'll tell you. The first thing that popped in my mind as you were saying it, and we'll just go with it. And it's. I've never said it like this before, is that I love myself.
- [43:17]
Jessica Zweig
Wow.
- [43:18]
Dr. Gertrude Lyons
I know. It's making me cry, too.
- [43:20]
Jessica Zweig
That's so good.
- [43:21]
Dr. Gertrude Lyons
There's something about, like, if I can. And that's work. Right. To love ourselves. That's not just an easy. But if an opening, like, I could love myself or I don't really love myself yet. That there would be a step toward, like, oh, loving myself. I can still care about and love other people, but that's just gonna. It's only gonna enhance it versus take away from. Or I don't deserve it, or I'm not worthy of. Of my own self. Love.
- [43:49]
Jessica Zweig
I love that answer. I'm crying.
- [43:52]
Dr. Gertrude Lyons
I know. Me too.
- [43:53]
Jessica Zweig
No, I love. I love that answer. You're like. I'm like. The book is called Rewrite the Mother Code. What do you want people to understand when they're done, you just say, I love myself. Like, the simplicity, the profoundness of that in the nature and the rootedness of, like, that word mother. And that you would bring it to that. That was your first instinct. And I loved. I loved that you shared that.
- [44:18]
Dr. Gertrude Lyons
I'm glad. Yeah. So thank you.
- [44:20]
Jessica Zweig
I mean, it was.
- [44:21]
Dr. Gertrude Lyons
I'm really trying to stop myself from overthinking.
- [44:23]
Jessica Zweig
It's good.
- [44:24]
Dr. Gertrude Lyons
You're having a. Right, Gertrude, you have there.
- [44:26]
Jessica Zweig
Right freaking arrived. Gertrude, I know that you coach, you do this work, you host retreats, you have different containers. We'll link to all of that stuff in the show notes. I would love for people to come get involved in your work, but, I mean, you've been doing this for, like, 25 years.
- [44:43]
Dr. Gertrude Lyons
Yeah, I don't know, 27.
- [44:45]
Jessica Zweig
27 years in. Yes.
- [44:47]
Dr. Gertrude Lyons
In a different manifestation.
- [44:48]
Jessica Zweig
Families, couples. Like, you've been working in the space of, like, social, emotional intelligence, coaching. You've got your doctorate. Obviously, this book is really what you came here for. In my view. This is your mission. Spirit told me that when I was coming up with the name. One of my last questions for you, because I've got some quick fires for you in the work that you've been doing for this much time. I really view you as, like, a sage. Like, you have such depth and wisdom. Seen it all.
- [45:16]
Dr. Gertrude Lyons
You've been through a lot.
- [45:18]
Jessica Zweig
Yeah. You've seen a lot. Is there something in your work that continues to surprise you?
- [45:23]
Dr. Gertrude Lyons
We are all hungry and yearning to just return home. I'll take the gist out of it. We're hungry and yearning to return home. And that continues to surprise me because we all think it's out there. You know, I think it's out there. It's taken a lot to realize that, oh, everything is within. And that sounds. It's gotten kind of buzzy to say that, like, all the wisdom is within, but it is. And what maybe surprised delight is when people start connecting with that. And then they'll thank me.
- [45:56]
Jessica Zweig
I'm like, but you did it.
- [45:58]
Dr. Gertrude Lyons
You. You know, you came up with that. Yeah, I hold space for you, but this is all you. Right. And for people to start seeing. Oh, you know, and. And I think it does continue to surprise me that holding space and just being a container or a reflection mirror, so to speak, allows people to. It gives them permission to access those as those parts of themselves. And. And then my reinforcement and honoring. Like.
- [46:29]
Jessica Zweig
Yes.
- [46:30]
Dr. Gertrude Lyons
Yeah. You know, that we. To fan the flame.
- [46:33]
Jessica Zweig
Yes.
- [46:34]
Dr. Gertrude Lyons
Fan the flame of their desires.
- [46:35]
Jessica Zweig
So good. I'm going to send everybody to go read this book. It is, I would love, masterful, your newest baby that you just birthed from your birth canal called your cosmic womb. Totally. I have just a few final quick fire questions for you that I love to ask everybody besides your own. Well, you wouldn't. No one never says their own. But do you have a favorite spiritual book?
- [47:00]
Dr. Gertrude Lyons
One that I'm. Anytime I remember it, I'm telling everybody to read is the Madonna Secret. Ooh. By Sophie Strand. And it's the first book I've read of the Jesus Mary Magdalene life story history that I'm like, oh, of course. This is how it happened. Of course this is what it is. And it's so much of what we're talking about with, you know, what's happened with the squashing of the feminine and. And called the Madonna Sea, called the Madonna Secret by Sophie Strand.
- [47:34]
Jessica Zweig
Okay, I'm ready. I'm gonna.
- [47:35]
Dr. Gertrude Lyons
There's so much about it. I could. We could do a whole podcast on what, you know, this woman has. It's historical fiction. It's highly researched, and it's channeled. I mean, it's.
- [47:46]
Jessica Zweig
Damn.
- [47:47]
Dr. Gertrude Lyons
Yes.
- [47:48]
Jessica Zweig
Okay.
- [47:48]
Dr. Gertrude Lyons
I'm so inspired and so beautiful. I can't wait to hear.
- [47:51]
Jessica Zweig
I'm totally gonna read it.
- [47:52]
Dr. Gertrude Lyons
I want people to read it, because you can't talk about it until you've read it, because you know it just how it all unfolds. You're like, yes, duh. Of course. You know, both from just a historical, practical standpoint to a mystical one. You know, it's amazing.
- [48:10]
Jessica Zweig
Do you have a favorite spiritual teacher?
- [48:13]
Dr. Gertrude Lyons
It's so funny because I don't think of this, but what keeps flashing in my mind. So I'm just gonna say it because I didn't even realize how much of an impact it's had. Is Autobiography of a Yogi. That's a book because I'm not gonna be able to pronounce his name.
- [48:28]
Jessica Zweig
Some guru.
- [48:29]
Dr. Gertrude Lyons
Yes, he's a guru. But there's something about his work and his message that, like, I'm still birthing what it means to me and what matters to me. So it is flashing big time there. He's no longer living, but he's.
- [48:46]
Jessica Zweig
I've heard of that, but I'll put this all in the show notes, too. Sure.
- [48:49]
Dr. Gertrude Lyons
So a more current one also is Mirabai Starr. I want to, like, throw her out there because she's a woman mystic who has studied the women mystics, and it's mostly through reading I haven't done. I want to do her workshops and stuff. So in current day, someone who is really vibrantly and beautifully and in a way that allows you to follow your own path. But through the lens of these women mystics and some of my favorites, like St. Teresa of Avila and others, Wild Mercy is her book that we can. So amazing. Yeah. She probably wouldn't like to be called a guru or anything like that, but a teacher. Yeah.
- [49:27]
Jessica Zweig
Amazing teacher. Do you have like a particular goddess, archetype, angel, deity that you work with?
- [49:35]
Dr. Gertrude Lyons
I knew you would. I love that question because it's been such an evolution, you know, like there I can say I've had. Maybe the one that has been a through line is Mary. Just because that started so young as being raised Catholic and seeing her different manifestations and then as an adult, the way she has shown herself to people with these urgent messages that we need to change, that, you know, something needs to happen. So for many different reasons and how I have felt held and I have a lot of mystical stories with her, but I would say the first one that I started tuning into because I think our direct ancestors are part of that yes, mother line and the spirit and whoever she, you know, represents was my grandmother on my maternal side. So she was a held. That mother love, that mother space in an atmosphere that I really needed, like, I really believe. And I've kind of had some downloads that they. My grandparents didn't just live with us in the summer because they needed a place to stay. They were there as my guardians. They knew that they had to be there. And they had not just a message, you know, they had a job to do and it was as my guardian. So there's them. And then I would say I've had periods of time where Kali has come in pretty strongly. You know, I've needed that Kali energy pretty significantly to do make some of the changes that I've made to step out of some destructive places that I was part of. So that's when. And that's when I really tuned into, you know, these. I had kind of more acclimated to the Mary or the Kuan Yin, the compassionate, nurturing mother, and stepped into the. No part of mothering is death, destruction, you know, the burn it to the ground so we can feed the earth and build anew kind of thing and be okay with those cycles of endings and beginnings. And I would say she's probably held the most prominent space. You maybe said one, but I know I love. I told you three.
- [51:47]
Jessica Zweig
Of all the people I've asked that question to, you've had the best answers. Like I knew you'd get that question.
- [51:53]
Dr. Gertrude Lyons
Oh, I write about it in the book. Like this is a part of your team or you're, you know, and they, they can change. They can totally.
- [52:00]
Jessica Zweig
You're part of your team.
- [52:00]
Dr. Gertrude Lyons
Yeah.
- [52:02]
Jessica Zweig
Do you believe in aliens? Yes or no?
- [52:04]
Dr. Gertrude Lyons
Yes.
- [52:07]
Jessica Zweig
I don't know why I laugh every time I. Because I know what people are going to say and that's a whole podcast. Thank you for affirming my belief. You're talking to an alien. Final question. Gertrude, what does it mean to you to be a co creator of the new Earth?
- [52:20]
Dr. Gertrude Lyons
It means a fulfillment of a age long soul, long path journey. It means connecting with beings, other beings, resonating, finding them, you know, being in the space of co creation, creating how I believe we are meant to live and, and co create that with others. Bringing the beauty and wonder of what's possible in. Into being and manifesting it.
- [52:54]
Jessica Zweig
Yes, beauty and the wonder. It's really what we came here for. And it starts with us does seeing the beauty and wonder in ourselves, making space for it. Thank you. Thank you for being here all the way in Nashville. So excited to have you. Thank you for being in my life. Thank you for changing my life and thank you for writing this book. This is going to change a lot of people's lives.
- [53:20]
Dr. Gertrude Lyons
I feel blessed and honored and again, no accidents, right? We're finding the beans and people right when we need to for all the right reasons if we're clear enough to see it and do the work to have that happen. So I feel immensely blessed and I love that you're doing these live now and a reason to come down and it's so nice to be in person, I have to say. Yes, it makes all the difference. So thank you for following your desires in your heart and helping others to do the same as well.
- [53:53]
Jessica Zweig
I receive. I receive. Thank you. And I'm just so thrilled for this. This is your time. This is your moment. You have arrived.
- [54:03]
Dr. Gertrude Lyons
We are here. Only the beginning. It feels like.
- [54:06]
Jessica Zweig
Only the beginning.
- [54:07]
Dr. Gertrude Lyons
It feels like a culmination and an opening. Right?
- [54:11]
Jessica Zweig
Like a birthday, like a birth.
- [54:13]
Dr. Gertrude Lyons
Right? It.