← The Spiritual Hustler
The Spiritual Hustler
Who is The Mystic Jesus: What's Really Happening in This Country (and on This Planet) with Marianne Williamson
00:50:28
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- [00:02]
Jessica Zweig
Welcome to the Spiritual Hustler podcast. I'm your host, Jessica Zweig, multi seven figure serial entrepreneur, best selling author and branding and business coach. And this is a show where we are redefining the word hustle. Reclaiming our true feminine nature of magnetism and putting down the self judgments and shame around loving to work and making a lot of money at it. On this show, you're going to learn how to stop hustling and start spiritually hustling. By pressing play. You are now part of a new movement of women who don't hustle for money. We hustle for meaning. We don't hustle from lack, we hustle for love. We don't hustle from survival. We hustle for humanity's thriving. We hustle toward healing the ancestral programming of fear and step into a new understanding of safety in the body to receive. This shift isn't going to only heal.
- [00:55]
Marianne Williamson
Your life, it's going to make you.
- [00:56]
Jessica Zweig
A whole lot richer too.
- [00:58]
Marianne Williamson
This is the Spiritual Hustler podcast. Well, hello my spiritual Hustlers and welcome back to the podcast. I am your host, Jessica Zweig and I'm so excited about this interview. I'm just gonna say it. It's the second time Marianne Williamson has been on this podcast and we're gonna get into everything about the mystic Jesus today. You're gonna wanna buckle up and listen to this. In fact, I would recommend you take this one in that you don't multitask while this podcast plays in your earbuds or wherever you're listening or however you're listening, because this is an activation. This is not your typical interview. I, you know, I've, I've had the blessing of becoming dear friends with Marianne Williamson. She's been in my life for many, many years and I've really gotten a chance to get to know her up close and personal. And she's a beautiful person. She's a beautiful human being. And at the same time, you know, I say like, she's just a person, she's just a woman like you and me who loves astrology and cares deeply about her daughter. And we've talked about it all like personal and professional and otherwise. But she's Marianne Williamson and she's really kind of one in a billion and has a way of communicating spiritual concepts and frankly, social and political issues that pierce through the noise in the density on our planet that have a frequency to the way that she communicates that really has the power to change your system. If you can really take this conversation in, it will move you in ways that I don't think most interviews on podcasts will. Now, I will say that it's beautifully ironic and somewhat intentional, if I'm being honest, that this podcast is coming out on election Day. And for those of you who have been following Marianne Williamson's journey, you know that she ran for President of the United States twice, and I was right next to her for this second run and really got a deep inside look at that decision and that journey. And I am not really a political platform at all. I am into politics. I'm very, very invested in our country and what's going to happen to it. But I. I don't necessarily talk about it. It's just not what you guys come to this podcast for. You come to this podcast for the blending of the business, branding, leadership, building a platform, being a hustler, making moves, making money, and the spiritual, conscious, divine, feminine, galactic, Pleiadian light work conversation blended together here on my podcast. And I'm so grateful that you're here, by the way. I'm just so honored that you could listen to any podcast and you choose to listen to mine. And if you have not yet left a review for this podcast, please go ahead and do so. It really, really helps the show grow and it would mean so much to me. It means the world to me. But this conversation with this mentor, friend, sister of mine, a woman that has, yes, inspired millions and millions of people through her spiritual work, got in the arena. I like to tell her that all the time. I'm like, you are a woman who got in the arena in one of the most toxic, low vibrational, dense spaces in the human experience called politics. To bring the light, to bring the love. And while that was a choice that Marianne Williamson decided to make that you didn't necessarily understand or agree with, it doesn't matter. Because the message that she has always been promoting and sharing with the world, quite literally the world, is the same message she was trying to bring to America and to pierce through the static noise of fear and vitriol and scarcity and comparison and competition and all of the low vibrational, fear based, concentrated values of the Matrix. This woman decided to face it and be a spokesperson for a lot of truth. And she came to my podcast studio here in Nashville, you know, a couple months after she had officially stepped down from the race and had an equally potent message, and in so many ways the same message to share right here with me in my studio, to share with all of you. And we're not really going to talk at all about politics today, although we will talk about our country to some degree and we will talk about what's happening here on a micro, macro and mystical level. If you don't know who Marianne Williamson is, I might as well tell you. Just in the event that you have not been tuned into the spiritual narrative for the last four decades, that's fine. But Marianne Williamson has been a leader of that space for her entire career. She's the author of 16 books, four of which have been number one New York Times best sellers. Everyone might be familiar with the quote from her mega bestseller A Return to Love that stated, our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. That one statement has been considered a true anthem for a contemporary generation of seekers. Some of her other bestselling books have included A Woman's Worth, which is the book that brought me to her. And I'll tell you that story of how we became friends through that book on the podcast today, the Law of Divine Compensation, Tears to Triumph, and the Gift of Change. She founded Project Angel Food, a nonprofit organization that has delivered more than 18 million meals to the ill and dying homebound patients of Los Angeles since 1989. She's worked her entire career on poverty, anti hunger and racial reconciliation issues. In 2004, she co founded the Peace alliance and supported the creation of the United States Department of Peace. Her latest book, which is why she is here today, is called the Mystic Jesus, the Mind of Love, and it's available online and at bookstores everywhere. And you know, I'm Jewish, in case you didn't know. Shalom. Well, even though it's probably not Friday when you're listening to this, this podcast comes out on Tuesdays, although you might be listening to it on Friday. So shalom. Shabbat shalom. And I really, truly love my faith and I talk a lot about my spiritual awakening in my new book, the Light Work, in chapter one called Source Finding your way back. And the critical question in that chapter is finding our way back to what? And the answer is you, because you are the Source. And whether you're Jewish or you're Christian or you're Catholic or you're Muslim or you are Buddhist or you, whatever you identify as, maybe none of the above. Maybe you're an atheist, although if you are an atheist, I don't know if you'd be listening to my show. But the word Jesus can bring up a lot for us. It certainly did for me when I first, you know, got Marianne's book and she talks about Jesus today and in her book, which I'm going to recommend everyone go buy, and you're going to definitely want to buy it after you listen to this conversation that is so inclusive and so grounded and so loving and available to anybody that's on the spiritual path and is ultimately leading themselves back to love and is here to lead the world back to love in how we show up and what we dedicate our life to and what we dedicate our work to. And there really is no one better to write this book and to tell this story and to have this conversation than Marianne Williamson, especially based on what she just decided to go through as she ran for President of the United States. So this is a conversation, like I said, you're going to really want to take in, slow down, get grounded, clear a little bit of space today and receive this amazing conversation with my dear friend, Marianne Williamson.
- [09:21]
Jessica Zweig
Marianne Williamson, my sister, my friend. Thank you for being here.
- [09:26]
Marianne Williamson
Oh, thank you so much for everything, Jessica. And thank you for having me here. I'm excited.
- [09:30]
Jessica Zweig
I love you so much.
- [09:32]
Marianne Williamson
Thank you.
- [09:32]
Jessica Zweig
You are a beloved, beloved voice in my community, in the global community on not only spirituality, but humanity.
- [09:41]
Marianne Williamson
Thank you. Thank you so much for saying that it's the truth.
- [09:44]
Jessica Zweig
And you've written this incredible book which we're going to talk about today.
- [09:47]
Marianne Williamson
Thank you.
- [09:48]
Jessica Zweig
But before we get into what's in the book, I want to just understand why you were called to write a book about Jesus in the first place.
- [09:57]
Marianne Williamson
Well, I'm a student of A Course in Miracles and, and this book, in many ways it's based on the Jesus within the context of A Course in Miracles. And the Course isn't a religion. It doesn't claim any kind of monopoly on truth. It, it's a self study program of spiritual psychotherapy in dismantling a thought system based on fear and accepting instead a thought system based on love. Now, it does posit that the material comes from Jesus, but it doesn't have anything on you believing that. This isn't about believing in that. It's not about believing in God. It's about coming to believe in each and coming to understand how the universe operates. And I received a call from my publisher, my editor at that time, so this book was actually suggested to me.
- [10:44]
Jessica Zweig
Oh, wow.
- [10:45]
Marianne Williamson
That they said that they were receiving a lot of requests from booksellers who said people are asking about books about Jesus that aren't tied to Christianity. And of course, that was very natural for me because my whole career has been among what's often Called the unchurched people over the last few decades who have not wanted anything to do with organized religion, doctrine, dogma, but then came to feel that they had thrown away the baby with the bathwater. They hadn't meant to be turning away from a God of their understanding, higher power, the notion of divinity. There was an attraction to that. But could I have that without all the stuff that is very hard for me to buy? Right. You know, yes. And so that's where books like the Course in Miracles have been of interest to people. So dealing with the Jesus aspect of all that, not as a religious figure per se. Yes, although he certainly was and is, but as a universal, non exclusive spiritual force within our consciousness, an internal guide, a psychological evolutionary elder brother. That's the metaphysical and mystical context, not the historical Jesus who was, which certainly has its profundity, but the deeper meaning of some of those historical stories, as it is true of Moses, true of Buddha, the deeper dynamics psychologically that are revealed by those stories. So that it's not just about what happened thousands of years ago, but it's about what's happening inside our hearts and our lives right here, right now. That's what the book is about.
- [12:27]
Jessica Zweig
Incredible. And so speaking of right here and right now, it's not a secret to.
- [12:32]
Marianne Williamson
Say that this world is a very loaded.
- [12:35]
Jessica Zweig
And I mean, I think there's a lot of light on this planet. I think there's a lot of dark happening on this planet. It's a tough time. And you just came off of running for president. I mean, you really, truly, as I have always called you, stepped into the arena as a woman that I like, a superhero.
- [12:52]
Marianne Williamson
Thank you. You were very helpful to me and I want to thank you for that.
- [12:55]
Jessica Zweig
I love you for that and I believe in you and you are an inspiration to me and to so many. And watching you do that was validation of why you've been so impactful to so many women on this planet. And you know, I look around and, you know, I, I turn on the news, I open up social media. There's just a lot of divisiveness, a lot of polarity. What, you know, you mentioned Jesus thousands.
- [13:19]
Marianne Williamson
Of years ago to who he is.
- [13:21]
Jessica Zweig
You know, within today. What do you think his message has to offer the world at this moment in time?
- [13:28]
Marianne Williamson
His message is that we are to love one another. And a bottom line of loving one another runs contrary to the current social and political and cultural bottom line that dominates our society and dominates the world. The reason democratic principle matters is because it invites the best of us, the wisest part of us, the most noble part of us, to come forth, to join with the wisdom and nobility in others, and to do collectively what we're called to do personally. Be good, be just, be merciful, take care of the children, steward the earth well, think of future generations, make peace. That's what we're called to do collectively as well as individually. But in your individual life, only you can make the call, right? Collectively. Representative democracy theoretically means that the voice of the people organically has a chance to come forth, form a kind of force field of political, economic and social possibility. Yeah, but we are living in a country today where huge forces mitigate against that because of the tremendous power of their money, the tremendous power of business and technology, and really the way the political system is sort of been sewn up. So we have a challenge on our hands because that sense that corporate profits for this huge matrix of corporate entities, that their profits should somehow supersede and take priority over real humanitarian values and real democratic values. Insurance companies, this is why we don't have universal health care. Pharmaceutical companies, why people are rationing their insulin. Food companies, why there are carcinogens and GMOs in our food that there aren't in other countries. Chemical companies, which is why our pesticides are so poisonous. Agricultural companies, which is why our food has been so desecrated. Oil companies, why we have these, the global warming. Gun companies, manufacturers, so that guns flood our streets. And military industrial complex, which is why we have had so many wars that too many of us are going away. Why did we fight that one? So we want to be more loving people. And like you said, there is a lot of light coming forth too. But we're living in a kind of two simultaneous realities, like parallel universes. On one hand, like you said, the chaos, the turbulence, that all of us, you can't deny it anymore. You're not conscious in the slightest. If you're like denying something really wrong, something's going on that is beyond the pale. Things are just. There's like one world seems to be crumbling in front of our eyes. And at the same time, people who are waking up spiritually and growing up and evolving, and it's kind of a race for time. When we were children, we were taught about evolution. And we were taught that if a species is behaving in ways that is maladaptive for its survival, that one of two things is going to happen. There's either going to be mutation and a shift and an evolutionary change in direction, or it will go extinct. And what's happening in the human species is that our collective behavioral patterns, given the nuclear bombs, given the climate catastrophes, given so much, our collective behavioral patterns are maladaptive for our survival. And what the great religious figures and avatars, whether it's Jesus or Buddha or Moses or any other represent, is a better way, another way that humanity could do this better. We, we could, we could organize ourselves according to love and ethics and character and honor, but we have to ourselves proactively become part of the critical mass that will make it happen. I do think that's happening, but I think there's also an urgency in the air that's appropriate.
- [17:39]
Jessica Zweig
I could not agree more. And I know that the women who listen to my show are here for that awakening, that are on the path of that awakening. And, you know, Christ consciousness is something that is often spoke about in my circles. And you talk a lot about Mary in the book which we're going to get to. And, you know, how does one and I feel this way at times? You know, we wake up and we feel that, that heaviness, and we feel that that other world and the crumbling and that we are only one person and we can only do so much that we can. And how do we really break through that density and empower ourselves on a daily basis to live in that Christ consciousness, which sounds so wonderful, but it's hard.
- [18:22]
Marianne Williamson
Well, first of all, you're not just one person because all minds are joined.
- [18:26]
Jessica Zweig
Love that.
- [18:26]
Marianne Williamson
So the deeper you go, the more of an effect you have on, on the world in situations you might not have ever dreamed of. The second thing is feeling that way when you wake up, which is very common. Before you have your coffee, before you go onto social media, before you look at the news, do your spiritual practice, whatever it is, religious, spiritual, mindfulness, secular, spiritual, religious, go within.
- [18:54]
Jessica Zweig
First, what does it look like for you?
- [18:55]
Marianne Williamson
What do you do?
- [18:56]
Well, I'm a student of a Course in Miracles, so it means the Workbook of the Course in Miracles. And also I do transcendental meditation. So I'm daily with the workbook of the Course in Miracles, but I'm not daily with tm, but I'm, you know, I'm good with tm, not daily with it the way I am with Course in Miracles, but remember, there's one truth spoken in many different ways. So there are many different practices. The issue is, whatever your practice is, do it. Whether it's Buddhist meditation, Kabbalistic meditation, secular mindfulness training, whatever it is, if you wake up in, in the morning and you go directly into the thinking and the news of the world. It will, on the level of your nervous system, eat you alive.
- [19:41]
Jessica Zweig
Yes.
- [19:42]
Marianne Williamson
And that's just the way it is. But it's also true that, like with physical exercise, if you do it, it works. It's like the 12 steps of alcoholics Anonymous. If you do it, it works. So we have to move beyond just thinking about it or believing it. We have to move into the actual work it takes to build our attitudinal muscles. Just like you build your physical muscles. You build your physical muscles so that you can go out there and be strong and make things happen. You build your spiritual muscles so that you can be still and be non reactive and grow into your wisdom and your sophistication in a. In a sense of real personal maturity. And that will put you in situations where you are much more likely to attract relationships and circumstances where you yourself can be and can know that you are part of the solution and part of the celestial speed up. That is our opportunity to turn things around in time.
- [20:44]
Jessica Zweig
I love that. So I don't know if you remember how we met. Well, I'll tell you what. I'll tell you how you came through.
- [20:49]
Marianne Williamson
Okay.
- [20:50]
Jessica Zweig
I was in Ojai, California, for my 40th birthday. I write about this in my new.
- [20:54]
Marianne Williamson
Book, the Light Work.
- [20:55]
Jessica Zweig
I tell the story and I. My therapist had recommended A Woman's Worth.
- [21:00]
Marianne Williamson
Okay.
- [21:00]
Jessica Zweig
Okay.
- [21:01]
Marianne Williamson
So I went to Ojai.
- [21:02]
Jessica Zweig
I was there for a few days. I didn't take any content on social media. I was like off the grid. But I. I was taking pictures and I took a picture of the COVID of that book.
- [21:10]
Marianne Williamson
I love that book.
- [21:11]
Jessica Zweig
And I know you wrote that when you were 40. I think you told me that.
- [21:14]
Marianne Williamson
Which was like, what I'd learned at 40.
- [21:15]
Jessica Zweig
Right. It was. It's a beautiful book. And I was coming home from the trip and I was at LAX and I uploaded Instagram again. And I started sharing pictures from that trip and I had taken a picture of the book and I tagged you on Instagram and I said, love this book by Marian Williamson. And Lauren DMed me. Like 30 minutes later. I was like, getting on the airplane. She's like, thank you so much for this post about Marianne. Would you like her to come on your podcast? That's how it happened.
- [21:44]
Marianne Williamson
Wow. Yeah.
- [21:44]
Jessica Zweig
And you were my podcast years ago. And that's how we connected. And the reason why I bring back A Woman's Worth. You know, you've written so many books and you have such a global Message for humanity across politics, love. And I also, also, I believe femininity. And I really fell in love with you even more with that, that book. You really touched a part of me at that time that I was really seeking.
- [22:09]
Marianne Williamson
And I appreciated that you said you were turning 40. Yeah, it really is a book about turning 40.
- [22:14]
Jessica Zweig
Yeah, it really, really hit. And you know, we have, you know, had a beautiful friendship and this mention in, in the book around Mary, we have a whole chapter on her and I would love to just read a quote. Thank you. Mary is the feminine yin to God's masculine yang. God impregnates the human heart. What is born from that divine conception is the Christ. A new sense of self that we carry into the world. This newborn self is fathered by God and mothered by our humanness. The truth of who we are, both human and divine. It's not just Mary who has awakened from her sleep. All humanity has been in a state of spiritual slumber. The women who listen to my show are on a path that's called the Spiritual Hustler. From unhooking from a masculine paradigm of over dominating in that vibration. And, and I'm really, through my work and through my own personal journey, inviting women home to the feminine that lives within themselves. And what would you say to those women that are remembering their worth as women, coming home to their true nature as women? And what does Mary have to teach us about that?
- [23:29]
Marianne Williamson
Well, you know, I grew up in an age of feminism, which in some ways was better, in some ways was worse. What was better was that we had a sense of the importance of sisterhood. And I see that lacking in a lot of feminist conversation today. What was where we got it wrong was that we ironically glorified the masculine in the name of feminism. And we. There was this idea, you know, there's a. The Jungian concept of the father's daughter. So something got, you know, at that time, like Talking about the 60s and the 70s, even into the 80s, fathers were told that you're really supporting your daughter by helping her to achieve that she can achieve just like a boy can. Now that's an important issue. And of course you should support your daughter or son for any achievement. But the father, you know, patting the girl on the back, you can do it. I'm so proud of you. I'm so proud of you. Subconsciously communicated to do an entire generation of women that if I achieve in the world, I will be loved. Whereas the real feminine is love for who we are, not for what we do. And but it's also important that, and I mentioned this in the book as well, there's a divine masculine as well as a divine feminine. So this is not to denigrate the masculine. It is to honor a balance. You know, Jermaine Greer, the famous, I think, Australian feminist, she might have been New Zealand, I think she was Australian, said the opposite of patriarchy is not matriarchy but fraternity.
- [25:16]
Jessica Zweig
Say more.
- [25:17]
Marianne Williamson
The idea that it's, you know, I always say if you're a heterosexual woman, you, you in this incarnation, you are majoring in mask in feminine minoring and masculine. The man is majoring in feminine minoring in majoring in masculine minoring and feminine. Now, this is true, no matter the fluidity and sexuality today. And trans and gay doesn't matter. This is true about the deep human. There's a, there's an aspect of a masculine and feminine, both of which matter. And so what I talk about in there, talking about the story of Jesus and the, the deeper dying spiritual and psychological dynamic, because remember, at bottom, the spiritual dynamic is the psychological dynamic. You know, the Course in Miracles says at their peak, religion and psychotherapy are the same thing. So the idea here is that the divine masculine is Joseph in the story. He loves her, he takes care of her, he gets the, he gets, remember, gets into a dream, so he gets it to a feminine aspect of himself. Take her out of this town, she's in danger here. Go to Egypt, come back from Egypt. You know, that's a part of you that knows you do make the reservations, you do make the plain reservations. It's not like being all in our feminine means that we have no active principle at work. We have the active and the passive. And so I think coming back to the feminine is obviously extremely important. It's nurturing, it's caring, it's, it's love.
- [26:50]
Jessica Zweig
Yeah.
- [26:50]
Marianne Williamson
But the masculine, you know, if you look at both the Jewish star and the star of day and the Christian cross, both of them are visual symbols for the intersection between the region of the spirit and the region of the earth. That's why it says about Jesus in the course in Miracles. It says he lived on the earth but thought only the thoughts of heaven, which is an awareness of our oneness. And that's really our goal, to be very grounded. You know, when you talk about that in your work, you know, this is not about being out there somewhere. You know, you talk about that. You, you, you deal with that and that. And by the way, this download of everything we're talking about is happening everywhere. There are people literally all over the world basically having the same conversation you and I are having right now. Different languages, different cultures. But the yearning for this next phase of evolution, this is just. Everybody's downloading.
- [27:45]
Jessica Zweig
Yes.
- [27:45]
Marianne Williamson
Nobody owns it. Everybody's downloading it. Everybody's speaking it in our own way, but everybody's bringing forth the same stuff. And. And it slows us down. If any of us thinks that. Think that we're special.
- [27:57]
Jessica Zweig
Right.
- [27:58]
Marianne Williamson
Thinking you're special is the flip side of thinking you're worse. You're no better or worse. And that's when you really awaken from what? What can only one person do? I'm not just one person. You say to yourself, I'm part of an. A revolution going on underground on this planet.
- [28:15]
Yes.
- [28:15]
And we just have to hold on. And there are two issues of the sort of spiritual and psychological impulse of this moment. Learning how to endure the chaos and learning how to transform it.
- [28:29]
Jessica Zweig
Yes.
- [28:30]
Marianne Williamson
And both are challenging.
- [28:31]
Yes.
- [28:32]
Jessica Zweig
But so necessary. I want to go back to Mary. She's. She's in the ether as well. A lot of people are talking about.
- [28:39]
Marianne Williamson
The reclamation of her, because when you reclaim her, all of these things are aspects within yourself. You know, it's just like they say. Every character in the dream is you. Jesus is the you, the you mothered by your. By your humanness, fathered by God. Mary is the you told to awaken from your slumber. She's asleep. And the angel says, get up, get out, go up to the roof. That's all of us. Everybody who would be listening to this program is someone who's. Who's been awakened and told to go up to the roof, to the higher mind. She's told by Gabriel, a messenger of God. All of us are, you're going to give birth to something new. You're going to give birth to the Son of God and the realization. And that means the better version of yourself.
- [29:22]
Jessica Zweig
Yes. Yes.
- [29:24]
Marianne Williamson
There is only one begotten son from a metaphysical perspective. Doesn't mean Jesus is the only one begotten son. Jesus is speaking from that place of realization, of the oneness of us all. We're all one. So we are all Mary. And that includes men as well. You know, just like we all have Joseph within us, we all have Mary within us. We're all being told, awaken, go up to the higher mind and prepare yourself, because you're going to be pregnant now with a new version of your own humanity. That's your child. That's what emanates from you. But it's not always an easy pregnancy, and definitely. And we're seeing it right now, it's not always an easy birthday, so.
- [30:05]
Jessica Zweig
Good, Marianne.
- [30:05]
Marianne Williamson
And don't expect there to be a room in the inn for you. The inn is not going to say, come on in, but God will provide a manger, and out of that your new self will be born.
- [30:18]
Jessica Zweig
Yeah.
- [30:18]
Marianne Williamson
All those symbols are very deep and meaningful if we allow them to really percolate in our hearts, you know, in.
- [30:26]
Jessica Zweig
Reading this book, which everyone should go buy. It's an incredible, incredible book.
- [30:31]
Marianne Williamson
Thank you.
- [30:32]
Jessica Zweig
It read. You know, you have a great writing style. It's like, got the signature Marianne Williamson.
- [30:37]
Marianne Williamson
Thank you.
- [30:38]
Jessica Zweig
Conversation, Humility. Just beautifully written. But it also kind of felt like a transmission. What was the experience of writing this book? What was that journey like for you?
- [30:48]
Marianne Williamson
Well, I think, first of all, remember, I've written a few of them. I know. So I. I think any of us. And I'm sure that was you when you wrote your book. I mean, you can feel when you're in that sort of creative high.
- [31:01]
Jessica Zweig
Yeah.
- [31:02]
Marianne Williamson
Hemingway says, when you don't feel the book writing itself, put down the pencil. Now, some people say. I know. People like Annie Lamott say, write every day, no matter what. I think you get pregnant with a book.
- [31:12]
Jessica Zweig
Absolutely.
- [31:13]
Marianne Williamson
And if it's happening, it's happening. And until it's happening, you're still pregnant. You know that nine months, you know, it takes time, and then it's ready to come out. So when I'm in the actual flow of writing, I enjoy it, but when I'm not, I'm not.
- [31:28]
Jessica Zweig
Yeah.
- [31:28]
Marianne Williamson
Did you travel for this book?
- [31:30]
Jessica Zweig
Did you research or.
- [31:31]
Marianne Williamson
Well, I had been to Israel several times, actually. Yeah.
- [31:33]
Jessica Zweig
What did you find? What did you do in Israel for this book?
- [31:36]
Marianne Williamson
You've been to Israel?
- [31:37]
Jessica Zweig
Yes.
- [31:37]
Marianne Williamson
You know, I remember the first time I went to Israel. My thought was, there actually is a holy land.
- [31:42]
Jessica Zweig
Yes.
- [31:42]
Marianne Williamson
That's how I felt.
- [31:43]
I thought that was just a symbol or something. It is the holy land. And, you know, you've got Judaism and Islam and Christianity all in that same spot.
- [31:53]
Jessica Zweig
Yes.
- [31:54]
Marianne Williamson
I always feel given, for instance, what's happening with Israel and Palestine today. There's a line in the Course in Miracles. The holiest spot on earth is where an ancient hatred has become a present love. So it's not only a spot which offers the highest transcendence, it's also a spot where humanity is exhibiting the greatest rejection and resistance to that transcendent love.
- [32:23]
Jessica Zweig
Yes.
- [32:24]
Marianne Williamson
And that's tragic, obviously.
- [32:26]
Jessica Zweig
It is. I remember you were, you were there when you were working on this book?
- [32:31]
Marianne Williamson
No, I wasn't writing the book yet, but it was percolating. I was pregnant, as you would say.
- [32:37]
Jessica Zweig
Yeah, I love to hear that. As someone who's written many best selling books, your, your process, you know, going back to what you just said in, in a, in a mystical sense, do you believe in, in heaven or hell?
- [32:51]
Marianne Williamson
Well, what the course in Miracles says about heaven and hell is that there are states of mind. You know, when Jesus said, my kingdom is not of this world, Freud had not been born. There was not the deep conversation of the dynamics of the inner life that there would be literally thousands of years later. So when he said my kingdom is not of the world, it's of the psyche. Right. So the course in miracle says heaven is not a condition or a place, it's an awareness of our oneness. You fall in love with someone, you have a child, you're holding a baby in your arms, you're holding a lover in your arms, and you say this is heaven? Because it is. And hell is the state of mind, the depression, the anxiety, the fear that the ego mind, the loveless mind, leads us to. So you know, time and space are as, as Einstein said, illusions of consciousness, albeit persistent ones. So yes, I mean, we're living in this three dimensional reality. Obviously nobody is denying this or, or in any way making it wrong. We're here to enjoy it. But at the same time, the spiritual life, the religious life, is one in which you realize there's something beyond this. There's a truth that the heart knows that the physical senses do not perceive. And what people are realizing now is that the world as we know it is a realm of effects. And those effects are manifestations of our thoughts. So if all we do is try to change the effects without changing the thoughts that gave rise to those manifestations, then at best we will come up with temporary solutions. And that's what's happening on the planet today. So learning how to navigate the inner realms is as important as learning to navigate the external realm. So I know on the external level that there's a thing called gravity, right? So I know if I drop this, if I release my hand right now, this will fall to the ground. I can tell you 100% certitude this thing will fall to the ground if I let it go now, you're not going to then say, I'm so moved by her faith in gravity. No faith in gravity. I just know the law, cause and effect is the same way every Thought has an effect. And that's not that I have faith. Faith is visionary. Faith isn't blind. Faith is just. You understand how things work and cause and effect means every thought is going to have. Is going to, as the course in miracles says, create form on some level. And the course in miracle says every thought you think takes those and everyone around you straight to heaven or straight to hell. Not after you die, but in the sense of greater peace or greater upset.
- [35:31]
Jessica Zweig
I love it.
- [35:32]
Marianne Williamson
Yeah, it's a lot of responsibility.
- [35:34]
Jessica Zweig
It is actually, but I think that's.
- [35:36]
Marianne Williamson
What people are learning. You're you and you alone are responsible.
- [35:40]
Jessica Zweig
It's empowering, actually.
- [35:41]
Marianne Williamson
It's empowering. And it's also sobering, isn't it?
- [35:44]
Jessica Zweig
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is.
- [35:45]
Marianne Williamson
We're not always in. In control of what happened to us, truly. But we are always a choice and responsible for who we choose to be in the space of what happened to us. I know myself is a lot easier said than done sometimes, but up to you whether or not to do that work.
- [36:00]
Jessica Zweig
We're all human. Going back to the mystic Jesus. In mystical terms, how. How do you define crucifixion? Resurrection?
- [36:10]
Marianne Williamson
So there are two aspects of mind. There's the loving mind, which is the mind of God, with which we are one, with which we cannot actually be separated except in an illusion, almost a hallucinatory realm. But the mind that is disconnected or thinks it's separate from God prevails within the thought system that dominates this planet. So the planet is dominated by thought system based on fear rather than a thought system based on love. And enlightenment is the dismantling of the thought system based on fear, accepting instead the thought system based on love in the meantime. Because every thought has power, free will means you are totally free. How you want to use your mind, but you are not free to diminish the power of your mind. So if you go in a loveless direction, it's going to have a loveless consequence. And that's what the crucifixion is. The crucifixion is the proactive, because remember, and this is what's so significant, there's no such thing as a neutral thought, right? So a lot of people say, hey, I'm not trying to hurt anyone. I remember, I remember a woman who started dating an an ex of mine and the drama so many years ago. And she said, marian, I never really meant to hurt you. I said, well, you didn't mean to be a good girlfriend. Didn't mean to help me either. Raise right in There. Oh, I, you know, I'm not, I'm not trying to hurt anybody. Every thought we think either proactively supports love or proactively projects fear. And that's what the crucifixions are. And the crucifixions are the product of humanity disconnected from the truth of who we are. And that's how Freud defined neurosis, separation from self. It's insane. That's what Gandhi said. The problem with the world is that humanity is not in its right mind.
- [38:04]
Jessica Zweig
Right.
- [38:05]
Marianne Williamson
So the crucifixions, it's the internal crucifixions. You're crucified by the fact that you're addicted, whether you're crucified by your. The situation in your divorce, whether you're crucified by physical illness, whether you're crucified by war, whether you're crucified by climate catastrophe. There are external crucifixions and internal crucifixions. And it is. What is. It's, it's the energy pattern by which disharmony.
- [38:28]
Yes.
- [38:29]
Is introduced into the system, whether it's personal or collective.
- [38:32]
Jessica Zweig
On a collective level, do you feel we're being called into a resurrection?
- [38:37]
Marianne Williamson
Well, the, the thing is, we're definitely being called into it, but we have to generate it. And I think that that's really where this kind of work that we're all involved in comes in the, the level of consciousness you're at while in the midst of the crucifixion is what will determine the emanation of the Resurrection. That three days, the symbolism of the three days between the crucifixion and the resurrection, just like the 40 years in the desert, the Israelites between slavery and promised land, means the time in which you're going through it.
- [39:12]
Jessica Zweig
Yeah.
- [39:12]
Marianne Williamson
You're going through the pain, you're going through the grief. And you're having to look at everything and you're having to do the work and you're having to take responsibility for your part in your disaster, and you're having to grieve what was. And you're going to have to learn to accept, and you're going to have to learn to forgive other people and to forgive yourself, to atone for your own mistakes. I mean, this is. It's not easy, but if you just stay in victim consciousness while on the crucifixion, then it will be way more than three years. It could be 3,000 years. But the consciousness of Jesus on the cross, you know, in the Bible, it's interesting because someone was Crucified to his left, someone was crucified to his right. But you never hear about their having resurrected. Now. Then his body is taken into the tomb, right? And that's where, when you're in the middle of it and you're in the pain of it, it's your tomb time, as my friend Sandy says. Now, the women, the feminine went to collect the body. You know, the women, the feminine that nurtured and that loves you, whether it's you, whether it's your friends who are loving you, or at the feet of the Christ of the crucifixion, the feet of the cross. Those who care for you through this call you, text you, how you doing. Every. Every symbol is so significant.
- [40:26]
It really is.
- [40:27]
But three days later, the women go to retrieve the body, and there are angels that are the thoughts of God who say to them, he's not here. He's risen. Which means the you that went through that, you're a different person now. Yeah. That you. That molecular structure of your mental and emotional habit pattern doesn't even exist anymore. You have risen. So that's what he says. He says in the Course in Miracles, I do not need you to join me in my crucifixion. That was my. The last useless journey. That was a demonstration to you. Join me in my resurrection. Join me. So that's what we're being called to, the promised land. We're being called to the state of the restoration. That's what the Course in Miracles says about the resurrection. It's a return to your right mind.
- [41:17]
Jessica Zweig
So. Good man.
- [41:18]
Marianne Williamson
And that's what faith is, and that's what forgiveness is, and that's what atonement is. And all the great religious systems, all of them, Jews, Yom Kippur and Easter, these are all the same deep emanations of dynamics. And, you know, there's that line that we all know the moral arc of the universe is long, but it bends towards justice. We need to be the benders of the ark right now. And I think that this is particularly significant for the higher consciousness community. Jessica? Yeah, I think in many ways we have contributed. We have contributed to the woe is me.
- [41:58]
Jessica Zweig
Right.
- [41:59]
Marianne Williamson
How much more can I talk about my trauma? How much more can I talk about my victimization?
- [42:02]
Jessica Zweig
I couldn't agree more.
- [42:03]
Marianne Williamson
How much more can I identify with the crucifixion? It's three days, and yes, it's going to take time, but you know, there's that old line, get off the cross. We need the word. And I think at this point, we need to change some of our social habits from. How are you? Are you okay? I mean, there is real trauma and I've learned that. That we don't cheapen the word trauma because there are real dramas.
- [42:29]
Jessica Zweig
Yes, there are.
- [42:30]
Marianne Williamson
And we need to be there. And there's probably not enough of that. In fact, it's so interesting what I've seen in the last two years because we're so obsessed with micro problems. We're missing out on being there for like. No, this is a real problem.
- [42:44]
Jessica Zweig
You've walked that. Yes.
- [42:45]
Marianne Williamson
Now I think we need to be. Which I felt from you and I appreciate. What great thing are you doing? How can I help? Yeah, that's where we need to be with each other and particularly with other women. Which goes back to that issue of sisterhood. Yes, this. It's a real issue right now. It's really where the rubber meets the road. We talk about women and, and. But I see a lot of faux.
- [43:10]
Jessica Zweig
Yeah, I wrote about that in my book. I called sisterhood with a little S versus sisterhood with a capital S. Like women who are walking the walk.
- [43:19]
Marianne Williamson
That's right.
- [43:19]
Jessica Zweig
That's why I capitalize sister. Because it's as holy as anything to have that feminine connection and true support and not just play the part, play the game, but to embody it.
- [43:30]
Marianne Williamson
And you exhibit that. You've exhibited it with me and you just said the word support. That's an example. Oh, I really support you. Oh, really? Because I didn't see a trick. I really support you. Really. Because I haven't gotten. In any event that's going to be planned or anything.
- [43:49]
Jessica Zweig
You know, you haven't showed up for me.
- [43:52]
Marianne Williamson
I really support you. It's really a moment on the planet to put some skin in the game. No matter what the game is, we've got to put some skin in the game. You're not going to have a revolution of consciousness over white wine and brie.
- [44:06]
Jessica Zweig
Amen, Marianne. Amen.
- [44:09]
Marianne Williamson
I just.
- [44:09]
Jessica Zweig
I love you. This book is. It's you. I mean, just. I could listen to you all day. What do you want? You know the woman listening to this podcast who's gonna go buy your book? What do you want her when she's done reading it, to truly walk away with knowing.
- [44:23]
Marianne Williamson
You know, I think writing a book is like having a child in the sense that they have their own life. You put it into the world, they have their own relationships. I know for me, as I'm sure was true for you, when you wrote light work, you're Hoping you're sitting in a room alone or at a coffee shop or whatever, hoping that something you say, some word, not just one word, but some phrase, some paragraph, some page is going to be an aha for someone. That someone's going to go, that is so true that that put together something for me. That's what you're hoping is that it's an aha for someone, that it uplifts someone's day. My hope would be that someone reads this book and feels happier, more peaceful, more hopeful, more powerful, more forgiving of self and others and more aware of what's going on on this planet. Really.
- [45:22]
Jessica Zweig
I love that answer.
- [45:22]
Marianne Williamson
And the power of love I love.
- [45:24]
Jessica Zweig
Absolutely.
- [45:25]
Marianne Williamson
Okay.
- [45:25]
Jessica Zweig
I have some quick fire questions for you that I ask every guest. But this is going to be really fun to ask you these questions because some of the answers that I'll get from people, you're usually the answer. So first question is, do you have besides the Course in Miracles, a personal favorite spiritual book?
- [45:44]
Marianne Williamson
Oh my goodness. You know, interesting. I'd probably. Well, there are two books I want to mention.
- [45:48]
Jessica Zweig
Yeah.
- [45:50]
Marianne Williamson
Neither one are overtly spiritual.
- [45:52]
Okay.
- [45:53]
One is Rilke's Letters to a Young Poet. And second, I think Ryan Holiday's book the Obstacle is the Way I've Heard is so good. And even though it's not in any way overtly spiritual, but it's philosophical, it's based on stoicism, It's a profound reminder. You know, everybody's on a spiritual path whether they know it or not. So the word spiritual, anything which deepens your understanding of what is really going on to me is spiritual. So Letters to Young Poet and the Obstacle is the Way are two books I highly recommend for the seeker today.
- [46:30]
Jessica Zweig
Love it. Do you besides Jesus, Mary, do you have a goddess or an archetype or a deity or an angel or an ancestor that you feel particularly close or connected to?
- [46:40]
Marianne Williamson
Well, I'm Jewish. I feel close to God. I mean, you know, no graven images there, but. And I appreciate that there is one truth spoken in many, many different ways. But I feel grateful and I feel grateful to be a Jew, actually. And I find it is a comfortable. I sit comfortably within my Judaism.
- [47:04]
Jessica Zweig
I love that about you. And do you believe in aliens?
- [47:08]
Marianne Williamson
In what?
- [47:08]
Jessica Zweig
Aliens.
- [47:09]
Marianne Williamson
I think it's absurd to think we're the only ones. I mean, with this one little tiny blip. So yes, I believe in. I don't know, do I believe that they exist? Absolutely, I do. I'm open. I think open mindedness is, is important on the other hand, it's kind of like, you a good witch, Are you a bad witch? You know, that's my. That's my issue. Like, are you the good ones, you're the bad ones. So. Well, there's going on here. I feel about aliens what I feel about people, which is where you're coming from.
- [47:38]
Jessica Zweig
So that might be one of my favorite answers to that question, because I ask everybody that question, so. Good. Okay, final question. I'm excited to ask you this one. What does it mean to you to be a co creator of the new Earth?
- [47:51]
Marianne Williamson
Well, the Course in Miracles actually uses that word that when you think with God, you are literally co creating with him. You know, my exercise in the Course in Miracles this morning is my mind is part of God's. I am very holy. So whenever we love. The Martin Luther King talked about cosmic companionship, co creation means two things. First of all, if I love you, it immediately puts us as people into a co creative posture where we will be able to do more together than we would have done alone. This podcast is an example. You show up with a willingness to do your best to bring your professional skills as well as openness and graciousness to me. Thank you. And I come with whatever skill set I have, hopefully creating a space which is positive towards you and what emerges from that, you know, the. The two or more. As the course says, heaven is entered two by two, whether it's with another person or just someone you're thinking of. It's. It. It invites the power of God, literally. So there's a power of positive manifestation, which is just almost an understatement of really. I think it's more accurate to say miraculous possibility. Because when we co create with each other, we are co creating with God and because that's what God is, is our love for one another. You know that wonderful lyric in Les Mis, to love another person is to see the face of God.
- [49:20]
Jessica Zweig
I get emotional. Profound. Thank you.
- [49:23]
Marianne Williamson
Thank you.
- [49:24]
Jessica Zweig
Thank you for coming on my show. Thank you for blessing my audience today. You are just such a gift to humanity, Marianne.
- [49:32]
Marianne Williamson
Right back at you, Jessica. And congratulations on your new book. And I'm wondering about that story because I was thinking, what? I don't remember that, but I'm gonna.
- [49:40]
Jessica Zweig
Go check email you got from Lauren. She was like, you should be on this girl's podcast. But I was in this divine feminine 5D flow and I have long loved you. And you floated into my world on an Instagram DM because I shared your book. And now we're friends.
- [49:54]
Marianne Williamson
Well, I think you've only just begun. And I hope that you and I together have only just begun.
- [49:58]
Jessica Zweig
Thank you. We have. Let's go.
- [50:00]
Marianne Williamson
Co create.