← The Spiritual Life with Fr. James Martin, S.J.
The Spiritual Life with Fr. James Martin, S.J.
A Caribbean archbishop on spiritual darkness, gang mediation and nurturing an "adult faith"
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- [00:00]
Father Jim Martin
Foreign welcome to the spiritual life. I'm Father Jim Martin. On this podcast, we reflect on how people experience God in their daily lives and in their prayer. And I'm joined by my wonderful producer, Maggie Van Dorn. Maggie, good to be with you.
- [00:18]
Maggie Van Dorn
So good to be with you, Jim. Who are we speaking with this week?
- [00:21]
Father Jim Martin
We are speaking with Archbishop Charles Jason Gordon.
- [00:25]
Maggie Van Dorn
And like I asked for all of our guests, how did you meet Archbishop Charles Jason Gordon?
- [00:31]
Father Jim Martin
It's a great name, isn't it? I first met Archbishop Gordon at the Synod on Synodality, which was a years long meeting of Catholic leaders. We met in October 2023 and 2024 and he was one of my favorite people. I mean, he was just relaxed and calm and as you'll see in this interview, funny and warm and really friendly. And I'm just so excited that we're going to be able to talk with him.
- [00:54]
Maggie Van Dorn
Yeah, I feel like the Senate on Citadelity was quite the networking event for you.
- [00:58]
Father Jim Martin
We were very lucky to meet all these great people.
- [01:00]
Maggie Van Dorn
Yeah. So a bit more about Charles Jason Gordon. He is the Archbishop of Port of Spain, the capital city of Trinidad and Tobago, an island country in the Caribbean. Archbishop Jason Gordon, or Archbishop J as he is affectionately known, has received several awards for his work with disadvantaged youth and as Bishop of Barbados started the Hub, People helping people to assist people achieve sustainable livelihoods. He has worked for judicial reforms to speed up the delivery of justice and is a member of Jubilee 2000, an international ecumenical consortium that seeks justice through debt forgiveness on behalf of the world's most indebted nations. Archbishop Gordon has authored several books including Meditation in the Upper Room, Teach Us to Pray and Food for the Journey.
- [01:50]
Father Jim Martin
Well, we'll get to our conversation in just a minute with the Archbishop, but first I think we have an audience question. Maggie, is that right?
- [01:56]
Maggie Van Dorn
Yes. This question comes from Sean and he asks how can we help youth transition from a young adult faith to an adult faith?
- [02:07]
Father Jim Martin
You know, Sean, thanks so much for that question. I don't think I've ever been asked that question. I don't work with youth much. I've never taught in a school and unlike most Jesuits, so I may not be as adept at answering it, but I would say that oftentimes youth have to, in a sense, claim their faith for themselves. They'll come at faith often from what they've been given, which is very wonderful from their parents. Right. But sometimes that doesn't exactly work for them. And I often find that youth sometimes have to take a little bit of a break. Not that they stop going to church or stop believing, but they have to kind of appropriate it for themselves. Right. They have to kind of come to faith on their own terms. And sometimes that means asking hard questions. Right. That they felt that they couldn't ask their parents or they couldn't ask a priest or a teacher in a school, you know, when they were young. And so it can be difficult sometimes. I think how we can help them is by really accompanying them and asking these hard questions. Right. So if you're maybe doubting God's will for you or doubting God's hand in the world to be able to say to the person, it's okay to ask those questions. Saints and theologians have asked those questions as part of being a relationship with God. So I would say to be open to their questions, even if they're tough questions, and really accompany them knowing that this is part of, in a sense, the reappropriation of their faith. And also, I would say to adults and to parents, you know, sometimes their kids end up, you know, taking a break from the church, and that's very painful for parents. I mean, we should always pray for their return. But I think part of it is to keep accompanying them. Right. Sort of walking with them even as they leave and hopefully bringing them back. So it takes a lot of patience, I think, to accompany a young person who's struggling a bit.
- [03:52]
Maggie Van Dorn
Yeah. Is it Rainer Maria Roque who says we must live the question so that one day we might live our way into the answer?
- [03:59]
Father Jim Martin
Yeah. And also to be comfortable with those questions. Right. Because I think sometimes when adults might hear questions from young people, they might say, oh, you shouldn't ask that question. Right. But you really have to, as you were saying, you have to live into those questions. And. And as an adult, be patient with those questions. So, Sean, thank you so much. We hope that helps a little bit. And then later on, Archbishop will give an answer to your question.
- [04:21]
Maggie Van Dorn
And if you would like to ask Father Jim a question, you can write.
- [04:24]
Father Jim Martin
To us@thespirituallifemericanmedia.org and now a word from our sponsor. Looking for a simple way to deepen your own spiritual life? Give Us this Day is a great resource that helps Catholics stay rooted in both scripture and prayer wherever you are, no matter how busy you are. It features both reliable and relatable spiritual reflections, essays on the lives of the saints, and, of course, lots of prayers to accompany you through the day. I'm really honored to be an editorial advisor. I've been that since the very beginning. And I write a monthly essay called Teach Us to Pray. And also I use Give Us this Day every day. So I'm not just a contributor, but a user. And here's a great offer. Right now, listeners of the Spiritual Life can get 10% off their new print subscription. Just visit giveusthisday.org spirituallife and join the community of Catholics praying together again. That's giveusthisday.org spirituallife. And now onto our conversation with Archbishop Gordon.
- [05:33]
Archbishop Charles Jason Gordon
Foreign.
- [05:40]
Father Jim Martin
So, Archbishop Gordon, welcome to the Spiritual Life.
- [05:43]
Archbishop Charles Jason Gordon
Thank you. It's great to be here with you.
- [05:45]
Father Jim Martin
It's wonderful to have you. We're so happy you made time for us in your busy schedule. We're going to jump right in at the beginning, talk a little bit about your vocation story in your life. You were raised on the Caribbean island of Trinidad. And I'm curious, I spent some time in Jamaica, but I don't know that culture very well. What did your Catholic upbringing look like and were there ways that your faith was enculturated by the culture of Trinidad?
- [06:10]
Archbishop Charles Jason Gordon
Great question. I grew up after the Second Vatican Council, so my first memory of Mass was English. The parish that I attended, we had a children's Mass and half of the front of the church was the girls and the other half of the front of the church was the boys, the left and the right. And I never thought of enculturation for some good reason at 7, 8, 9, 5 6, whatever age, as a teenager went into a parish that was run by the Dominicans. And actually Damian Byrne, who became the Master General of the order, was a parish priest. And it was a very youth friendly parish. And we started up a folk choir in the parish on a Saturday evening and didn't think enculturation, but yes it was. And the rhythm, the music was a lot of our rhythm and music mixed up with folk. But that really was a difference in my conscious Catholicism. Then halfway through teens, the parish that I rarely was part of that had no youth ministry or anything at all. My sister and myself went to see the priests and say, why don't you have a folk choir here? And he said, oh, well, let me think about it. And months later on a Saturday morning, he called and said, well, why can't you start this afternoon? So we went guitar in hand and did an entrance and a recessional song and then assembled a choir. Within three weeks we had a full choir and moved the full choir to there. So those were parts of my early experience. I went to Fatima College, which is a Holy Ghost run school. And that's really a place where faith was embedded deeply. So I was part of Scouts and as a Scout you were expected to visit the chapel once a day. You're expected to do a morning offering. And then once a week there was a formation for every year group. So besides having religious education in the school, we had this once a week formation for the year group. And by the time I was in, by 16, 17, I was going to Mass three, four, five times in a week. Now, looking back, I could see how that was a very robust formation for young person.
- [08:35]
Father Jim Martin
Yeah, it's pretty intense. That's a pretty intense formation.
- [08:38]
Archbishop Charles Jason Gordon
And a lot of my friends from Scouts have remained very committed Catholics and have already done amazing things as Catholic men and Catholic leaders. But it was there one day after Mass when I heard a question. What if I asked you to be a priest? The question was just like that, as open ended as that question was. And I stood up transfix at the back of the church, looking out of a window onto the field where everybody was playing. And for 15 minutes I was absolutely focused on this one question. And at the end of 15 minutes, I had certainty, complete certainty that God could not ask me to be a priest. The certainty was so great that after that morning I had never thought of priesthood for six years. Not even once did I make a mistake.
- [09:36]
Father Jim Martin
Wow.
- [09:36]
Archbishop Charles Jason Gordon
I was dyslexic and priests had to study for seven years at university. That was not going to happen. And priests had to read in public every day. And I couldn't read in public every day. So that just was not going to happen. A loving God could not be asking me that. And so I just went on from there knowing that, well, it was definitely not priesthood. I was settled and it never emerged again.
- [10:01]
Father Jim Martin
That's fascinating. Was it mainly the dyslexia that convinced you, as it were, that you couldn't be a priest?
- [10:08]
Archbishop Charles Jason Gordon
Well, the other part of it is I had a girlfriend at the time and I couldn't see how God could ask me otherwise than getting married and having children. But I think between it all, I was unready to hear a call from God. And what fascinates me now, and I usually share this story with confirmation students when I'm doing confirmation, is how possible it is for us to actually shut God's voice out. And how possible it is because of our weaknesses, because of our desires, because of our fear to just close God's voice off and not allow God to continue a conversation that he started. And that to me is fascinating. What free will really means. I have experienced that.
- [11:02]
Father Jim Martin
I think that's a great insight because we really. We can say no to God. Right. And one of the. Here's a theological question. I always wonder about what enables some people to say yes, right? And some people are unable to say yes. I find that fascinating as well. Do you have any thoughts on that? I mean, do you think that's a grace or is it more the person's, I don't know, kind of natural abilities? What would you say to that?
- [11:28]
Archbishop Charles Jason Gordon
You know, I think we are all born equally open to the grace of God. And I think what makes the difference is the relationship that we are willing to have with God. When we are willing to build a friendship with God, that God asks and we find a way to respond when we're not willing to build a friendship with God, then we can't even hear what is being asked. And so responding is really even more difficult. So it's how we respond in a relationship depends on whether we live our vocation fully or don't live our vocation fully or don't even find our way.
- [12:09]
Father Jim Martin
Let me take you back a little bit because you just described a really interesting journey of a young person. What about your parents? Were they fairly religious, would you say? Did they encourage you in this? You know, the great activity you had in the youth groups in your parishes? Were they themselves pretty devout?
- [12:26]
Archbishop Charles Jason Gordon
So my, my father was a very good Anglican, and I. I actually, as a teenager quarrel with him and said, you know, you could have made me an Anglican. He goes to Mass four times a year. I find that that sounds like just about right. So he was a good Anglican, always supported me and the family in living our, our faith. He had an active faith and prayed and believed in God. My mother was a traditional Catholic and went to Mass every week and was never really involved in a ministry or an activity in the church per se, but went to Mass every week. As a teen, I came in contact with the Charismatic Renewal and that gave me another push on my faith and another way of, of relating with God. But mom and dad were both people of faith.
- [13:23]
Father Jim Martin
Let me ask you a question. I think a lot of listeners and viewers would be interested in the Charismatic Renewal. Can you describe that for our listeners and also what it meant for you and why it appealed to you?
- [13:34]
Archbishop Charles Jason Gordon
So at 16 years old, my sister wanted to go to a Life in the Spirit seminar. And the deal was that if I would go with her, then it would be okay because we'd be coming home at night. So I did. And after The Life in the Spirit seminar, she ended and I continued. So another way in which God worked. So the Life in the Spirit seminar is a prayer group or the Charismatic renewal is a prayer group. And it's open to the gifts of the Holy Spirit and a lot of time of prayer and praise and listening to God and listening to the word of God. And that became part of my spirituality as a young person. So it really gave me another way into faith and a more active faith in learning how to trust God and learning how to pray.
- [14:32]
Father Jim Martin
Now I was starting to read. Your father died when you were young and you ended up taking over the family business around what time was that?
- [14:40]
Archbishop Charles Jason Gordon
So I was 18 years old when dad died and I had one more year to finish high school. So we do the British system and we would have a level. So we finished around 19. So I had one more year to finish high school. And so in that last year of high school, mom said to me, look, I'm ready to sell this business and just come out of it. By that stage that shrunk considerably, but if you want it, I'll hold it open. I said, well, hold it open. And so I came out of school and did a three month course in how to do all the technical pieces of the business needed. And then also there was a guy who ran the same business and he said, come to me for two months and work in my shop. Let me train you properly. And then the men working with me came to his shop and we did our work in his shop for another month and a bit. And then I went up on my own at, at 19 years old with three guys depending on me to find work to do work to deliver work, to figure out how much to charge people to collect the money. It was a great formation. He was a elite great formation.
- [15:52]
Father Jim Martin
Well, it's like Peter, you know, running his, his fishing business at the Sea of Galilee. What, what was your, what was the business exactly?
- [16:00]
Archbishop Charles Jason Gordon
It was steel fabrication. So making the gates, doors, grills, fence, anything in steel. And it was at the time when in Trinidad, everybody needed to put burglar proofing into windows because crime was rising. So it was a business that had a high demand because getting burglar proofing in and any new housing project would always have a lot of steel fabrication associated with it.
- [16:28]
Father Jim Martin
So here you are at age 19, running a business, running your family business and having six guys work for you. How does the priesthood, where does that come into all this? I'm curious. When you said yes to God, well.
- [16:41]
Archbishop Charles Jason Gordon
That'S a Beautiful story. So somewhere around 20, so a year and something into running the business, and I'm no longer involved in a faux choir at this stage. And all of my friends had gone away to study. And one Saturday night I left mass and I said, well, I don't even know why I came. This is really weird, really strange, but I feel no connection. I feel nothing in this whatsoever. On my way home, I heard myself say, I don't know if I'm going to come back unless I find a good reason. And that was quite a surprise for me to hear that one of my friends had been inviting me to a youth group for months. Every time she saw me, oh, come you like this. You'd enjoy this. Come, come, come. And I would always make fun of it. It's silly. That's not for me. And on and on and on I went. And that Sunday I was at Maracas Bay with a group of friends and she was there again, and she invited me again. And I said, what time is it? She said, five o'. Clock. I said, I'll pick you up. And it was simply because the night before I walked out of mass and said, unless I find a good reason, I'm not going back. And I think I shocked myself. And I think that caused me to then have a deeper search. And I went with her to that prayer group and it just felt like coming home. And that really shifted me in significant ways. And, well, my business was all these things, so all the steel, and I did it and did a lot of the construction for it. And I found myself torn between the business and that. And at the same time, I met a young lady in the community and. And we started a dating relationship, which was really good, and it was going somewhere, and we were talking about future and stuff. And one evening, a Saturday evening, we were just hanging out at her home and we were talking about the future. And she said to me, well, all of that is fine, but I know I don't have you for too long. And I said, what, are you dumping me? What is this story about? She said, no, I know you're going to be a priest. I said, you know what? And I nearly fell off my chair laughing, silly, because I thought this was the most hilarious thing I had ever heard in my entire life. And the question was then planted one more time in my soul. And within three months, I was being torn to pieces inside and realized that something was happening in my soul that had me so restless that nothing I was doing in my day made sense anymore. And at that Stage, I realized this is something I have to answer. And so, yes, I ended the relationship and blamed her. It's her fault. You told me, scaled down the business and handed a smaller version of it to my foreman at the time because he was there and help dad when dad was ill for the time that dad was ill. And I thought, give him a good start in life and entered into the community as a vocation.
- [20:09]
Father Jim Martin
Now, that story is so fascinating. And, you know, it reminds me in Jesuit vocations, we often say if someone else recognizes it in you, you know, it's a sign. But I'm sure so many of our listeners and viewers would have a question, which is. I'd have two questions. Archbishop. First of all, what changed, do you think, within you? And then the second question is, when you say that nothing made sense, what does that mean?
- [20:38]
Archbishop Charles Jason Gordon
What changed? Was that by then being part of the community, as a layman participating, I had grown a different relationship with God that was more active and that was more engaged. And I think that changed. Nothing made sense. I was thrown into desolation. I mean, I could look back now and understand all the classic things. I was not in the will of God, and therefore nothing of the sweetness or consolation from God was coming. And so the aridity of my life and my distance from where God's will was created a huge chasm that I had to find a way through and across. And that shift to the inner darkness and the recognition that that was tied up to vocation and asking for this to be settled, it was a tumultuous.
- [21:46]
Father Jim Martin
Time, you know, for our listeners. I just want to explain what you do so well. Desolation and consolation. Desolation is the sense of kind of absence of God's presence. At least in our prayer, we believe that God is still with us, and consolation is the sense of God's real sort of strong presence with us. But, you know, so you're working your way through desolation and consolation. And as you say, Archbishop, you know, looking back on it, it's clear what was going on. How did you find your way through that? Was it a sense of, well, obviously this isn't working, and so I need to move to something that is working? Or did you have a spiritual director that was helping you through all of this?
- [22:23]
Archbishop Charles Jason Gordon
So the community was founded by two lay women. One was a businesswoman, and the second was a contemplative nun for 16 years in the Dominican order. And Rose, who was a contemplative nun, I went to her and started to speak with her and say, look, this is what is happening to me. I don't understand. And this, this makes no sense. So my, the first thing I did is I took a week out and I went to the, to the seaside and just had a week of swimming in the sea and praying and friends came and spent a day at a time and did that just as a. Maybe I'm just tired. As a first response, well, it got worse. It really just did not get better. And then Rose said to me, do a retreat. So I went to Mount St. Benedict and she came up every day and directed me through a one week retreat. And at the end of it, I realized, no, this, this was something that was. Yes, at that stage I was, I was driving a really nice car, I had a decent lifestyle, disposable income, I was doing well. And I suppose like the rich young man, it was not fulfilling anymore.
- [23:43]
Father Jim Martin
Yeah, I had the exact same experience where I was sitting at my desk one day and thinking, what am I doing? I'm going to work so I can make money, so I can support myself, so I can go to work. It seemed very circular. We're going to pause now for a short break and we'll be back in a minute. Archbishop, let me ask you for people who are listening and might think about your experience of desolation and consolation. What lessons can people learn from that experience of yours? How would you think that could be applicable to, you know, the experience of a mother or an attorney or a father or a teacher? What is there in that experience of desolation and consolation that someone could kind of use in their own lives?
- [24:36]
Archbishop Charles Jason Gordon
You know, I really feel we've not taught our people to understand desolation and constellation sufficiently. And so they get scared when it happens, as opposed to realizing that you're moving from one stage of the relationship to another stage in the relationship and not understanding the pathways and how they work? And up until recently, I was speaking to, we had a rally and we had 2,000 people. And I asked them, I said, how many of you have come to a place in your life where your prayer is difficult right now? A lot of people put up their hand. I said, oh my gosh. Oh. I said, and how many of you feel like when you're praying that there's nothing there? And a lot of them put up their hand. So I stepped back from the talk I was about to give and did something on desolation and consolation. And that God only withdraws to create space for us to grow into God. So it's not an abandonment. It's really the creation of space for us to grow into God and become more in love with God. And I asked them, I said, you know, if your children love you and tell you how much they love you when you're giving them everything they want, is that the same as if your children say how much they love you when they're not getting what they want? Is it the same thing? They say, well, no. So if you're not getting what you want and your devotion is increasing, then that is bringing you to a deeper maturity in your faith. And the space that is left is to move to that deeper maturity. The spiritual life is not an adrenaline rush. It is everyday occurrence like every other relationship. They are going to be the peaks, and they're going to be the valleys. They're going to be times with great joy and consolation. And they're going to be times when there is desolation or the absence of the consolation and the spiritual masters. And this is your tradition, am I in mortal sin? And if I'm not in mortal sin, have I done anything to diminish my devotion? And if I have not, then what is God asking here? Two things. Never make a decision to decrease your devotion when you come to desolation. If you're going to change anything, increase your devotion. Never decrease it. Because that's when, like, for a sports person, that's when the muscles actually start to get built. That's when the great stuff starts happening. You don't see it at first, but that's when you jump your game to the next stage. And so you. In the desolation, you increase devotion not by slogging it through, but by recognizing that I see by faith and not by sight and certainly not by emotions.
- [27:36]
Father Jim Martin
That's so well put. I have to ask. You're talking like a Jesuit. Have you had a lot of Jesuit spiritual directors or studied the Exercises? Because that's. That's classic Ignatian spirituality.
- [27:47]
Archbishop Charles Jason Gordon
Well, you all have corrupted me.
- [27:51]
Father Jim Martin
Guilty as charged.
- [27:53]
Archbishop Charles Jason Gordon
Yes. All my spiritual directors. Well, most have been Jesuit trained. I did the 30 day retreat, 2004. I was in a parish that had five gangs in and around it and realized that this needed something different. And I'd come to places in my life where I had to figure things out. And I did the 30 days retreat, and that was a tremendous grace for me also.
- [28:18]
Father Jim Martin
Now, did you say you had five gangs around you in the. In the parish?
- [28:23]
Archbishop Charles Jason Gordon
Yeah. Yeah.
- [28:24]
Father Jim Martin
Well, that. That brings me to the next part of our conversation. I really want to speak to you about this, you've long been associated with caring for the poor and those on the margins. It's obviously part of the gospel. Where did that come from? Did that come from your family or your upbringing, or was it part of your formation? Where did that impetus come from for you?
- [28:43]
Archbishop Charles Jason Gordon
It came from the community. So the community, one of the things we do well in the Caribbean is hybridity. We manage to hold things together that people can't think of holding. So the community is deeply contemplative and deeply active at the same time. It's charismatic, but it's serving the poor. So as a seminarian, I used to leave the seminary on a Friday morning, first bus off of the Mount, take a bus into town, and there was a caring center that the community ran for people living on the street. And I would go there, help them make breakfast, and then do a service of the Word, which was always really lively. I tell people I was formed in preaching in the most prestigious Catholic institution that there is, and that was University of Duncan Street. I started by preaching to those living on the street and they really helped me to understand how you brought the Word alive for a group. And one day I left, going back to the seminary and I asked myself a stupid question. If God's preference is a poor, why is it that they pray for things that they need and not getting them? And I pray for stupid things like a taxi to come now or to pass an exam. And God is so gracious to me, blessing me with that. And it was like if the kitten got hold of the knitting and my whole God construct just came to pieces and I was just plunged into darkness. And so I was in my third year of seminary and my response, I'd read some John of the Cross, my response was to go into the chapel at 11 o' clock every night and sit for an hour in darkness and just say, lord, I'm here and if there's anything you want from me, I am here. The light went back on 16 years later, the funeral of Cardinal Hume, who I considered a truly modern man. I was studying in England at the time, did my doctorate, and it just went back on. And it was a three dimensional world all of a sudden, where faith and everything just got integrated in a way I just never saw coming. So that's kind of how that phase went when I was in giving the parish in January 2003, I was appointed, and by Good Friday we had had five murders in six weeks. And I brought all the leaders of the parish together to ask, okay, what do we want from this community. What do we want? We know what the gangs want, but what do we want? And that mobilized the parish into a whole series of activities, and it mobilized the young people. Then I did the 30 day retreat. In between that and at the beginning of the retreat, a question came. There's something I want to ask you. When I ask you, will you say yes? And I said to God, God, me and you and these big questions. My hand is still hurting from the last one you asked and I haven't finished paying for it yet. Please be very clear and let's have a conversation. And it went away. And the last morning before the retreat ended, I. I woke up and said, lord, there were so many graces in this retreat. Is there anything else that you wanted? And the question just came back at me. And I said, okay, Lord, if you ask me, you show me it's you and you give me the courage, whatever it is, I will find a way to do it, but you have to give me the courage for it. I went home, and within a week, I'd asked for survey of the upper part of the community, which is the more volatile part of the community, and had a guy doing that survey. I was parking my car and he pulled up next to me and he said, uzi, Father, you have to come with me to the upper. To upper Gonzalez. You have to. They need to meet with you. I said, okay. I looked at my car and I said, okay. I said, I have an hour and a half right now. Jumped in his car, went up, and on the way up, I just felt God saying thank you. And I met the lieutenants and then I met the gang leader and started in gang mediation from that and managed to have free access to any gang in the community and even at one stage, pull four of the warring gangs. When a machine gun kit was being fired up in the community, I put the four leaders of the four warring gangs together in a conversation that led first to truce and then eventually to peace in the community for two years.
- [33:25]
Father Jim Martin
Let me take you back a little bit. I'm very curious about this. You said there was a. Was it a 16 year period of, would you call it darkness? Is that right?
- [33:34]
Archbishop Charles Jason Gordon
Yeah.
- [33:35]
Father Jim Martin
You were sitting in the chapel and what happened to turn that light on and what was that like? Because I often in this podcast, one of the things we want to try to help people understand is what's going on inside of you. So when you say the world became in 3D, can you just talk about that experience and what it was like being in that chapel.
- [33:53]
Archbishop Charles Jason Gordon
So the prayer at that stage was like sitting down in front of a brick wall that had nothing coming back at you. And so my prayer was, I would sit and say, lord, I am here. Not sure what good is going to do, but I am here. If there's anything that you want, let me know. And at the end of what would be like about an hour or more, I would say, okay, Lord, I'm going to sleep now. I hope whatever you needed I was able to give you. And I'd go and sleep. And that was the prayer. That was the prayer. But amazing things were happening inside of me that I couldn't see. In the midst of that, I went to Louvain to do graduate work. And the whole philosophical tradition of Louvain and the headiness of all of that. The darkness was not helpful and it went darker. But every night I would go and sit in the chapel and just sit. Found a Jesuit spiritual director in Namuru and started a couple of times in the tomb going for spiritual direction. He gave me the foundational first principle at the end of praying with it for an entire day. When I met with him, he said, well, how was depressed? Terrible. He said, why was it terrible? I said, well, no self respecting person who is thinking could, could give us end to this. He said, well, why not? I said, well, this is like God being some super character that is an egomaniac.
- [35:27]
Father Jim Martin
Yeah, so just to interject. Yeah, to interject the principle and foundation, the exercises says that we should prefer ne long life nor short life, health nor sickness, only what is better for God's will. And it's this, as you're saying, it's, it's almost, you know, superhuman. You know, I should want nothing, I should be totally free. So yeah, so I can see why it would put you off a little bit.
- [35:48]
Archbishop Charles Jason Gordon
Yeah, a little bit. Just a little bit. But he gave me an old translation that was really not helpful when he gave me the newer translation and I prayed through it, I found a scent to it. So that whole weekend retreat was just simply coming to terms with the principle and foundation. That was it. But it was pivotal because it realigned the whole of my interior to that. So 16 years later, Cardinal Hume died in England and the parish I was in, the parish priest here, Monsignor Canon Adrian Arrowsmith, was a good friend of Hume and went to the funeral of Hume and a few things just really, I don't know what it was. I think the story that Canon Adrian told me, I think where the day before he died he Called his secretary and he said, look, I have two things I need from you. I need to get a haircut and I need these accounts. I need to give them to charity. And his secretary said, was a priest. He said, cardinal, you're not that. Well, let's wait a little bit. He said, let me tell you something. Where I'm going, I cannot see Peter looking like this. And these accounts are an embarrassment to me. I need them done today. Now that's faith in the peace of death.
- [37:16]
Father Jim Martin
Yes, it's very human too.
- [37:18]
Archbishop Charles Jason Gordon
Very human. Humorous, really humorous. But in his funeral, it was just like the light switch went back on. And I sat there and I said, but Lord, you are here. He said, well, I've been here all the time. He said, but no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, you have not been. I have not felt you like this for I don't know how long. Where have you been? He said, I've been here all the time. It was just as simple, as straightforward, as calm as that. And later, it reminds me of Therese of Abala who said, well, why you treat me like this? Well, that's how I treat my friends, when. No wonder you have so few friends. Who is going to enjoy this? Who? So the light switch goes back on for 16 years. Any major question you ask me, I could give you a perfectly good answer from a sociological perspective, and I could give you a perfectly good answer from a theological perspective, but I couldn't tell you which was the real answer because inside of me, these two things were real and I had access to both. After that, I knew which was the real answer. And there was an integration that started to happen because the light switch went back on and the world became huge and wonderful and textured and rich.
- [38:45]
Father Jim Martin
That's a beautiful answer. So you've just described your time as a faithful youth and a seminarian and a priest and then a bishop. What's your prayer like today and what goes on in your prayer?
- [38:57]
Archbishop Charles Jason Gordon
So a number of things happen. So every year I would do eight day retreat, Ignatian style in the diocese. I have an eight day retreat happening every month. Sometime during that, when that is happening, I would go to the retreat center for an overnight and check in in the evening and leave the next evening just to have time of prayer and be present to God and let God do with me whatever God wants. My daily rhythm Christian meditation combined with adoration would be my daily rhythm. Christian meditation has really been a staple of my prayer since seminary days. And it's one of the ways of praying that goes back to John Cassian, a desert father, where you sit still, notice your breath, and there's a sacred word, maranatha, and you breathe with it, and it's come, Lord Jesus. So that's kind of my staple. But the Bible. The Bible is really where my excitement is. So every day I do mass for my chapel, and it's online, and between all the channels, a couple thousand people would hit on that on a daily basis. But preparing that and working through the text and just falling in love with the text, seeing little intricacies that I never saw before. Don't mind. I'm a priest for however long now, and how did I miss this all this time? And it just. That is really the delight.
- [40:37]
Father Jim Martin
Well, that's a great place to end, Archbishop. Thank you so much. We have a question that really mirrors your own experience, and it's from someone named Sean. And the question is, how can we help youth transition from a young adult faith to an adult faith? What would you say to that question?
- [40:54]
Archbishop Charles Jason Gordon
Great question. There are a couple of pillars that helps a young person move from the faith of their parents to their faith to an adult faith. And I think those pillars we know care for the poor. Many young people don't even have a very active prayer life. If they get in touch with the poor and it does something to their faith, a prayer life, you know, there's no substitute. If you're going to be a friend of Jesus, then you have to spend time, and we have to teach them how to spend time in a credible way that makes sense and that is sustaining for them. You have to be part of a community. And our young people are so isolated today that if they don't have a sense of community in the parish or in somewhere in the church, you find they will pull away from the church because it makes no sense, which is what happened to me. So a sense of community, I think, is also vital for that transition towards an adult faith.
- [42:01]
Father Jim Martin
Well, I would say on behalf of Shawn, thank you for that Excellent answer. Archbishop Gordon, thank you so much for sharing your spiritual journey with us, your spiritual insights, and really your spiritual wisdom. We're so grateful you could join us today.
- [42:14]
Archbishop Charles Jason Gordon
It's been a pleasure, Jim, and thank you for what you do and for what American media does in helping all of us to not only stay in touch with the news, but also with the depth of spiritual life and insight. Thank you.
- [42:27]
Father Jim Martin
Thank you very much.
- [42:49]
Maggie Van Dorn
Well, that was a really great introduction to Jesuit spirituality, huh?
- [42:53]
Father Jim Martin
I know it's from somewhat of an unexpected source. I was delighted. You know, I, I had spent time with him at the synod, but I had no idea he was so sort of steeped in Jesuit tradition. I mean, that he's. He's speaking like a Jesuit, frankly. Desolation and consolation, principle and foundation, all that.
- [43:09]
Maggie Van Dorn
Right. I thought that was a really moving part of the conversation when he talked about desolation as God withdrawing in order that God might sort of rush in and greet the person. And is that something that we find in Ignatian spirituality as well?
- [43:26]
Father Jim Martin
It is. So desolation is really the sense of God's absence. I mean, as I was saying during the interview or the conversation, you know, God's always present, but we don't feel God's presence in our prayer at least, and sometimes in our daily life. And so it is desolate versus consolation, where you have a sort of a sense of uplift, of, of hope, of, of, of all sorts of kind of positive emotions. And that is very classic that you feel that God withdraws. Right. In order that you might be prepared for another stage in the spiritual life. Or sometimes it's just mysterious. Right. I mean, he was talking about years long desolation and darkness.
- [44:02]
Maggie Van Dorn
And Jim, how does one distinguish desolation from, like, depression?
- [44:07]
Father Jim Martin
Good question. You know, a couple of years ago in America, I wrote an article called the seven Ds of the spiritual Life. I can't remember them all. Desolation, darkness, dryness, despair. You know, depression is more of a psychological thing, depression. And it's also something that needs to be treated often with, with therapy. You can be not depressed and be desolate. In other words, you can be living a very sort of happy life and be, you know, very well adjusted. And not to say people are depressed, aren't well adjusted, but you're not in depression, but your prayer is very desolate and dry. So it's important to distinguish between those things. And he's talking about kind, classic desolation. And the idea that God would make space for a new kind of spiritual growth is very common. And as Archbishop Gordon was saying, that is in fact what happened in his life. And I think his other point, which is really well taken, is that people aren't familiar with these categories. And so when it happens, it's very frightening. And I think that one of the things that we need to do and one of the reasons for this podcast is to help people understand kind of the, as he said, the ups and downs of the spiritual life. So it's nothing to be afraid of. Desolation and darkness and Dryness are all part, as he was saying, of the ups and downs of the spiritual life. So it's just. Sometimes it's just a matter of patience. In his case, for 16 years. That's a lot of patience.
- [45:27]
Maggie Van Dorn
Yeah. And I think having this vocabulary of consolation desolation helps because we don't find anything like this in the secular world where we have someone, an authority, saying, like, it's actually okay for you to experience some sort of withdrawal or pain or aridity in the spiritual life. I mean, that is not something lifted up and celebrated in our society.
- [45:51]
Father Jim Martin
Absolutely. And people are surprised when it happens. And, you know, when they're told it's normal, there's a sense of relief that this is normal. A little bit of darkness dryness is normal in any prayer life. And then the desolation, I think you need sometimes a companion, a spiritual director or someone who's been through it, or even a book that can kind of describe what to do, which is really, as he was saying, kind of increase your prayer and your devotion and wait. Right. And that. That's really all you can do, because it is a grace in the end, and anything that happens in prayer is a grace.
- [46:23]
Maggie Van Dorn
One of the other terms that you guys are batting around was, I think that the principle and foundation. Would you say more on that?
- [46:30]
Father Jim Martin
Yeah, sure. And I'm glad you asked. Thank you, Maggie. So the principle and foundation is the beginning of the Spiritual Exercises. And it is basically that we would want neither a long life nor a short life, nor sickness, nor health, nor wealth, nor poverty, except that it's for God's greater glory. So it's really St. Ignatius saying, I want to be free of the need to have a long life, for example. And Archbishop Gordon really described it so well. When you first read that, you think, well, who could want this? This is kind of inhuman, I think, is the word he used. And, you know, of course I want to be healthy, and it's not unreasonable to want to be healthy and to want to have a long life and to, you know, want to be comfortable. But Ignatius is saying, if you're going to hold on to that, right. If. If that's going to be the. The. The sort of centerpiece of your life, Right. And that you're not able to do anything else and not able to be free from that, it's going to kind of prevent you from doing something. So, for example, if you are so focused on your health and say, I'm not never going to get sick, and therefore I'm never going to go to a hospital and visit someone who is ill. Right. Because I might get sick. That's a disordered attachment. And that's going against the principle and foundation. What it really is about is what we just call indifference, also known as freedom.
- [47:48]
Maggie Van Dorn
Interior freedom.
- [47:49]
Father Jim Martin
Yeah, interior freedom. So it's not that we, you know, want to be sick. Right. Or we want a short life, or we want to be, you know, completely poor or indigent. It's that we want to be free of the, the need to hold on to those things. And that's why it is a principle and foundation. But I was it. It's something to hear that from Archbishop Gordon and he, he explained his reaction to it so well.
- [48:13]
Maggie Van Dorn
Yeah, I, I do find it abrasive at first. But then as you kind of think about all these examples, it's like, how many of us would not pursue our vocation if we were tethered to the idea of making a ton of money? Right.
- [48:27]
Father Jim Martin
And also, Maggie, interestingly, he said when he was able to read the modern translation, and I'm pretty sure it's the translation by David Fleming, the original kind of verbatim translation from Saint Ignatius is quite harsh. David Fleming's translation is more about, I just want to be free. I want to be free of the need to sort of hold on to these things. And it's a little gentler. And that's often the translation that spiritual directors use. And I'm sure it's online for their retreatants.
- [48:55]
Maggie Van Dorn
Great. Well, that is super helpful.
- [48:57]
Father Jim Martin
Well, thanks. Yeah, it was great to be able to talk about that. Well, thanks to Archbishop Gordon and to Sean for his question and to our audience for listening to this wonderful conversation. The Spiritual Life with Father James Martin is a production of America Media. It's produced by Maggie Van Dorn and our executive producer, Sebastian Gong. We recorded in the William J. Loshert studio in New York City with the production assistance of Kevin Christopher Robles, Grace Linehan and Leilani Fuentes. Our audio engineer is Noah Levinson. Adam Buchmuller edited the video of this episode, which will be made available on America Media's YouTube channel. The theme score is courtesy of Teddy Abrams and Nate Farrington. You can. You can follow me across social media. Amesmartinsj. Also, please help us grow the show by leaving a five star review on your favorite podcast platform. If you love the Spiritual Life, then we have even more to offer you on America magazine's website. Keep informed and inspired about our Catholic faith. Become a subscriber today at americamagazine.org, subscribe or click the link in the Show Notes. Thank you and God bless you.