← The Spiritual Life with Fr. James Martin, S.J.
The Spiritual Life with Fr. James Martin, S.J.
Actor Martin Sheen on the heroes that shaped his spirituality and activism
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- [00:00]
A
We tend to think of a neighbor as just someone who lives nearby. The gospel redefines neighbor not as someone familiar or like you, but as the one who acts with mercy. Our friends at the Catholic Charities Network believe being a neighbor is something bigger still. It means showing up and sticking around across distance, differences or discomfort. Because when neighbors help neighbors, hope blossoms. Be the hope around the corner in your neighborhood nationwide. Learn more and volunteer at peopleofhope. Us.
- [00:32]
B
You know, people ask me, did you ever meet Dorothy Day? Honestly, I could have, but I didn't know who she was. I didn't go there to meet her. I was there to eat. So it's very likely that I met her, but I couldn't tell you. I met the spirit that she created there, that's for sure. And I'm still a big supporter of the Catholic record today.
- [00:56]
C
Welcome to the spiritual life. I'm Fr. Jim Martin. On this podcast, we reflect on how people experience God in their prayer and their daily lives. And I am joined by my wonderful producer, Maggie Van Doren. Maggie, always good to be with you.
- [01:10]
A
It's great to be here with you, Jim. And I am so excited to introduce this conversation. It's a really big star, but also just a really magnanimous human being.
- [01:22]
C
He is amazing. And I have so many friends who I've told that he's coming on the show, and they were so excited. And it is Martin Sheen. Now, he may not need too much of an introduction, but just in case, Maggie, can you tell us a little bit about Martin Sheen's background?
- [01:38]
A
Yeah, gladly. So Martin Sheen is an acclaimed American actor whose career spans more than five decades across film, television, and stage. Martin Sheen is perhaps best known for roles in Apocalypse now and as President Josiah Bartlett on the West Wing. Beyond acting, Sheen is widely recognized for his deep Catholic faith and lifelong commitment to social justice. He was influenced by figures like Dorothy Day and Daniel Berrigan and has been active in movements for peace, workers rights, and environmental protection, often risking arrest for civil disobedience. Martin Teen has spoken openly about how prayer, conscience, and the example of Jesus have shaped his public and his private life. In short, he's not just an actor and a storyteller. He's a public witness.
- [02:26]
C
He is also full of life.
- [02:28]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [02:30]
C
My gosh, if I had half of his energy. It's such a fun conversation. And I was just so happy that he joined us.
- [02:37]
A
Yeah. Now, one of the things that you talked about with Martin Sheen was his connection to the Catholic Worker movement, to the Plowshare movement, to Dan Barrigan, all of these really incredible activists in the 20th century. So would you maybe start by just saying a word about what the Plowshare movement is?
- [02:58]
C
Yeah, sure. So Plowshares was a movement, or is a movement of pacifism, nonviolence, also a focus on nuclear war, obviously, being against it. Some of the protests included, you know, breaking into, you know, facilities and, you know, where there were nuclear warheads being kept.
- [03:17]
B
Right.
- [03:18]
C
And doing different things, kind of banging on them and throwing blood on them at different times. This is all part of the Catholic peace movement that the Catholic Worker was part of, a little background on them, founded by Dorothy Day. Right. And then also Dan Berrigan, if people don't know who that is. Very well known in the 60s, 70s, and 80s, a Jesuit who died 10 years ago, who was, I would say, gosh, a poet, an activist, and had been arrested a couple of times. And very hard to kind of sum up Daniel Berrigan's amazing life. One of my favorite quotes from Dan Berrigan is, if you want to follow Jesus, you better look good on wood, meaning the cross. So Plowshares movement, Catholic Worker, Dan Berrigan, Dorothy Day, all sort of in the mix in Martin's life.
- [04:12]
A
Okay, now, this. This raises a challenging question, I think, for many of us Catholics. If you want a faith that does justice, do we have to be ready to put ourselves on the line? Be ready to go to jail, to be crucified in some sense the way that you've just named? And how do we discern that vocation?
- [04:38]
C
Yeah, it's a great question. One of the people that Martin Sheen was also influenced by, he doesn't talk as much about her in this interview was Mother Teresa, Saint Teresa of Calcutta. And when people would come to Mother Teresa in Calcutta and say they wanted to work with her, she would say, famously, find your own Calcutta. Right? So we're not all called to be Mother Teresa. We're not all called to be Dan Berrigan or Dorothy Day or Martin Sheen, right? We're called to be our own people, our own individuals. I think we're all called to work for justice in our own ways, right? Now, what that means for each individual needs to be. Here's a big Jesuit word, discerned, right? Sometimes it may involve you going to jail if you're the mother of two small kids, right? Probably not. Right? Because that's not something you can do in terms of your other vocation. But if you're a mother of two small kids or the father of two small kids, maybe there are other ways you can work for justice in your community, in your parish, on the workplace, in your neighborhood, in your family. So I think it's about discernment.
- [05:38]
A
And, you know, the other thing that Martin Sheen says in this conversation, and I think he's quoting directly from Father Greg Boyle, is that you don't have to leave this country in order to go to the developing world. Right. Or to go to the margins of society.
- [05:53]
C
Yeah, exactly that.
- [05:54]
A
You can find that sometimes within your own heart, but very often in the communities immediately around you.
- [06:01]
C
Yeah, totally. I mean, just step outside the door in most places. Right. I mean, certainly I live in New York City, and if I wanted to go to places, places where people are struggling and poor, I just need to go on the subway. Yeah. So I think, you know, find your own. Calcutta really has really stuck with me. But it's great to hear how Martin Sheen did it, and it's very inspiring and really lively, too.
- [06:23]
A
Now, the audience question for this week does tie into this question of how much must I give of myself? And it comes from Emma, and she asks how, how can working people today take a personal vow of poverty or overcome a consumer culture? So stick around because Father Jim and Martin Sheen will answer that question together later on in the episode. And of course, if you'd like to ask Father Jim a question, you can write to us at the spiritual life@americanmedia.org
- [06:53]
C
and now onto our wonderful conversation with Martin Sheen. So, Martin Sheen, welcome to the spiritual life.
- [07:09]
B
Thank you very much, Father. Delighted to join you.
- [07:12]
C
Yeah, it's great having you. You know, I've always been a big fan of yours, both as an actor and a Catholic, meaning you as an actor and you as a Catholic. So I'd like to start with your Catholic background. Can you tell us a bit about your religious upbringing?
- [07:26]
B
Well, I was born into an immigrant family. My father was Spanish, my mother was Irish. So as far as being raised Catholic, I didn't have a prayer. I was one of my mother actually had 12 pregnancies, 10 survived, nine boys, one girl. And I grew up in Dayton, Ohio. I was the first one in the family to survive, born in the United States, and there were three following me. And so I went to a Catholic grade school, Holy Trinity in Dayton, Ohio, and to a Catholic boys high school called Chaminade in Dayton where the Marinist brothers and priests were our teachers there. So I had a fundamental Catholic education, not liberal by any means, but practical and very powerful, really. And you know how when we, when we start growing up and we Think we're adults, we kind of leave behind the things that, that we, we don't really value when, when our ego gets in the way. So I, I kind of let the faith fade a little bit in my early 20s in New York, when I was starting out in my career and I didn't really come fully back into the f. What I call my reconversion in Paris in 1981. And since then I've been a faithful practicing Catholic and hoping that someday I'll get it right. But. So that's in a nutshell, my journey. But these last 40 years have been the most difficult and by far the happiest of my life because I found a way to. Well, the phrase I use is unite the will of the spirit with the work of the flesh. And so that's what my life has generally been. Been focused with.
- [09:29]
C
Well, I'd like to focus a little bit. What made you sort of fall away and then what happened in Paris to bring you back?
- [09:38]
B
Well, Paris was kind of a combination of experiences in the Philippines making a film, experiences in India making a film, and experiences in Paris making a film. And all that happened between 1976 and 1981. So this five years with those three extraordinary experiences in the Philippines, it was making the film Apocalypse Now. In India it was making the film Gandhi. And at Paris, it was running into my old dear friend Terence Malik, who was living and working in Paris at that time. Neither one of us would say that he was a spiritual advisor, but he was that for me at that time. He saw that I was going through a period of adjustment and change and he began to kind of guide me along. Terry is Episcopal, he was raised in Oklahoma and Texas, but he's very devout and a very conscientious man and deeply, deeply spiritual. He would be the last one to confess that, I promise you. He's hopelessly shy in public, but he's very powerful in the spirit. And he had a very profound effect on me in those few months in Paris in 81. And they culminated with my returning to the church in an English speaking church in Paris on the Avenue Houche called Saint Joseph's and it's run by the Irish priests they call the redemptionist priests. And it turned out that it's the only English speaking parish in all of France. I found out later.
- [11:33]
C
Let me ask you, what was it that Terrence Malick said to you or what book did he give you that sort of made things click? Was there one thing that, in terms of your coming back that really helped you in terms of your relationship with him?
- [11:46]
B
Well, I would say that I was on the cusp and that the last book he gave me sent me over the top, and that was Dostoevsky's the Brothers Koramazov, which became my favorite book. And it had a profound effect on me at that time. I guess I was open to what that message of how important leading an honest life was and how there's no point in living if you're not leading an honest life. You're divided. And when we're divided, we can't really focus on anything. I just realized how fragmentated I was. And that experience those few months in Paris culminated with my finding a way to bring it all together in one place and to be comfortable in that. Mind you, it was not an easy journey. It's been anything but. But it has been the most rewarding part of my life.
- [12:48]
C
Now, you've had some other guides that I'd like to talk about, particularly two, two of my heroes, Daniel Berrigan. And until I was doing some research on you, I didn't realize this. Mother Teresa as well. Can you tell us about both of those figures, how you got to know? For those who don't know, Dan Berrigan was the great Jesuit priest and social activist and poet and writer. How did you, first of all, how did you come to know Dan Berrigan and what did he mean to you?
- [13:13]
B
Well, I was in New York through that extraordinary decade in the last century called the 60s, when so much upheaval was happening in the world and was reflected in the city in New York. And Dan Barrigan was very active with social justice, peace movements and with laity and religious people of all faiths. And he was one of the founding members of the plowshare movement in the east coast, groups of people that confronted the Holocaust of nuclearism. And his phrase was that our religion had become nuclearism, that we were depending on weapons of war, mass destruction, weapons of war, rather than the nonviolent Jesus who was our founder. And so he was trying to bring us back to that blessed community, if you will, and making us realize that our country was turning towards kind of a Christian nationalism. He warned us of that, as you know, the great prophets of old, but also the 20th century. Dietrich Bonhoeffer in Germany was warning people about the Nazis, and of course, it cost him his life, but he talked about the Christian nationalism as cheap grace because it didn't cost you anything. But if you were going to really follow the gospel, that it had to cost you something. Otherwise you were left to question its value. So Dan risked his life on numerous occasions, specifically through the actions they did in the Plowshare movement, where they would actually confront nuclear weapons and the places where they were installed. And they would. If they got close enough, they would pour their blood on the nose cones of weapons and bang them with hammers in alliance with the command of the prophet Isaiah to beat swords into plowshares. They took that image and actually applied it to the weapons themselves, and it was very costly. And Dan was facing prison for one of these actions. And he went in underground, and when he finally was captured, he had a session with a group of people, and he said he was advocating that all of us fill the jails because peace work had to be as devotional as. As war. And he was confronted by a member of the audience who said, oh, well, it's all well and good for you, Father Berrigan, to protest and go to prison. You have no children. What's going to happen to us if we go to prison? What's going to happen to our children? And Dan said, what's going to happen to them if you don't? And that went right to the heart of the issue. And it was a profound revelation for me. And that was the. The hook, if you will. I realized that this guy was for real and the Plowshares were for real, and so I joined that movement as a supporter, I should say. But that led to my involvement with social justice activism, and always through the gospel. I rarely ever did anything alone or by myself. I did it in community, as Dan taught us. So he had a very profound effect on all of us who were interested in working for peace and social justice.
- [17:08]
C
Yeah, he was a great hero of mine, too. And one of the surprises for me was that, you know, he was controversial even within the Jesuits, you know, when he was jailed and whatnot. There's a famous story of Father Pedro Arrupe, the former superior general, visiting him in jail and sort of giving him the imprimatur. Let me ask you, were you. Did you have a kind of a social justice bent before that, before Dan Barrigan? Because I know you were involved in the Catholic Worker for a while.
- [17:37]
B
I was, yeah. Well, you know, as a boy, I was a caddy at a very exclusive private country club in my hometown. I was a caddy there from the time I was nine years old, which I'm going to age myself here, 1949, I started caddying there. And it was just what we did as a family. All my brothers in Front of me. All caddied there. And so when the spring came and we were off for the weekends, we started caddying, and we'd caddy till the late fall. When I was 14, in the summer of 1954, I began to realize that we needed to have our own voice, to project that part of our lives that was taking so much energy and so much focus. And so I started a union, a caddy union. And I was fired, of course. The union lasted about 48 hours. And it was a lifelong lesson that if what you believe is not costly, then you're left to question its value. And so I. I realized how costly it was to get involved, to stick your neck out and. And you've got to be prepared for the long haul, not just the initial step in that direction. So Dan was very much doing that all of his life. It was the long haul. You know, it was not protest for him, was not a sometimes thing. It was a reflection of his whole life. It's where he came from, what he stood for and what he did. A lot of people are astonished at people who are able to do this for the long haul, But I had the privilege of working with so many of those early Plowshare participants. Most of them were religious, you know, and thinking of Sister Ann Montgomery, who spent years in prison, great friend of Dan, and all the others that participated. John Deere, as you know, spent time in prison as well. He was a protege of Dan Berrigan, I would say. But what is extraordinary about all these people, when I think of them, and I conjure up the memories of what they did and what I participated in, on a very tiny level with them, in protest, was this sense of enviable joy. I mean, it was costly, and it wasn't a joy to spend time in jail, but they did it joyfully. They did it together. They did it in community. And there was something so freeing and something so blessed and intriguing about them, and that is the term I was used. They projected this enviable joy.
- [20:25]
C
Well, that's beautiful. Where did that come from, do you think? Because I know a lot of social justice people. In fact, a long time ago, I once asked Helen Prejean something. She volunteered. We were in a conversation, and it was actually with Dan Barrigan, and she said, I find some of these social justice people to be so angry. And I said, why do you think that is? And she said, well, because often they don't see results, you know, in their lifetime, and they get bitter. So where do you think that joy came from? In Dan Berrigan and in all the other people you admired, I think it
- [20:59]
B
was in living a full life. And you know, this. This phrase which is so often used in the spiritual journey, they had become their true selves so that there was no division in their thinking, their. Their social life and their projection into social justice activity. A protest, a demonstration, or just, you know, just going about. Another colleague of yours has made a great impression on me here in Los Angeles, Father Greg Boyle, who's the founder of Homeboy Industry and Homegirl Industry here in la. And one day my wife and I were in the car listening to this interview that this fellow was having with this Greg Boyle. And the guy evidently didn't know a lot about him. He was kind of just given a piece of paper, say, interview this young priest. Okay, fine. And so he's going along and asking all these questions, and Father Boyle is answering them very patiently. And finally the guy said, well, Father, tell me, how did you get in start? What happened to you that you did all these things and you're so involved? And Greg Boyle very calmly said, I went into the Third World and they cracked open my heart. And that's what's happened to you. And it's happened to Dan Barrigan and his brother Phil and Sister Ann Montgomery and Father Carl Cabot and John Deere and all of the peace people that I've known. They go into the Third World. You don't have to leave the country. You don't have to leave your house to go into the Third World. Third World is in our hearts and in our minds. I think you go there and you let the Third World crack. Open your heart.
- [22:55]
C
Yeah, open you up. Did you find that. I know you were affiliated with the Catholic Worker. Did you find that in worker communities as well?
- [23:03]
B
Yeah, very much so, yeah. When I was 19, a friend of mine took me down to the Living Theater in New York, and there was this very radical group. Julian Beck and Judith Molina were the founders. And they had this theater going, was very political and very artistic and. And very powerful and committed. And they were social justice advocates, and they were often arrested for protesting. And so when I started with the theater, Julian Beck said, well, we don't have a lot of money. We can only give you $5 a week, you know, And I was worth every penny, incidentally. But he said, we have a friend who has a bread line down on Christie street, and one of the lads will take you down there if you're interested, because you can get a free meal there just about every night. And there's no. You don't have to pay, and you don't have to listen to a sermon. And so this guy took me down there on Christie street. And at that time, it was on the second floor, and I waited with this long line of lads, mostly lads, and went upstairs and it was an extraordinary meal in this extraordinary community. And I started going, like almost every night. And I. And I would. Maybe the first six months or so I was going there. And one day I asked one of the lads, you know, you guys are so, so good, and, and. And I enjoy coming. I really appreciate what you're doing. Can I help you out in any way? Oh, yeah. Well, come and help us fold the paper on Saturday. I said, you guys got a paper? Oh, yeah, yeah. It was the Catholic Worker newspaper. Penny a copy. I think it's still a penny.
- [24:45]
C
It is, yep.
- [24:47]
B
But that was my introduction to them. You know, people ask me, did you ever meet Dorothy Day? Honestly, I could have, but I didn't know who she was. I didn't go there to meet her. I was there to eat. So it's very likely that I met her, but I couldn't tell you I met the spirit that she created there, that's for sure. And I'm still a big supporter of the Catholic Worker. Today
- [25:11]
C
we're going to pause for a short break, but we will be be right back.
- [25:19]
A
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- [25:42]
B
I want to back up for just a minute. Sure. How did the Living Theater know about Dorothy Day? Well, Judith Molina was arrested with Dorothy Day for a Ban the bomb protest in New York. And they were cellmates at the Women's House of Detention in Lower Manhattan. And they both wrote about it. Dorothy Day wrote about Judith Molina and saying how she felt she had to, you know, kind of protect this young, pretty girl, first time in jail. Judith Molina had a totally different viewpoint of Dorothy Day. She was very powerful and very disciplined. And she recalled an incident in her diary about Dorothy Day. There was a demonstration on the streets downstairs. I think it was been on 6th Avenue at the time. And Judith said, well, let's have a look. And they climbed up on their window and they were able to look down on the street. And Judith Molina says that Dorothy Day said, oh, there he is. I still love that man. It was her former partner oh, Forster. Yeah, he was the man. Yeah, he was protesting down there. And Dorothy, they saw him through the window and said, oh, there he is. I still love that man. That was Judith Molina's remembrance of their time in the cell.
- [27:03]
C
That's very beautiful.
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B
Now, you.
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C
You talked about people getting arrested. You've been arrested yourself a few times, right?
- [27:09]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [27:10]
C
Now, how do you. How do you. And you're seen as a. An activist on behalf of justice and peace. How do you determine which causes, in a sense, to get involved in it? Do you have kind of a guiding principle when it comes to sort of choosing where to be involved and where to insert yourself?
- [27:26]
B
I do, actually. I want to make sure that it is community involved, that, that the. That the action. Mind you, I never go to be arrested. I. I'm appalled at getting arrested. I never look forward to it. Sometimes it's necessary and sometimes it just happens. You know, you don't have to go far to. If you open your eyes to see where there's injustice and you can find a means of protest. But it's most important to find community, to be in solidarity with a group and so that you speak as a community, not as yourself. I remember Dan would be very strong about telling young people that are getting involved for the first time in social justice activity and being arrested. He said, don't be guided by the thought that you're going to change anything, because the only thing that you can be sure is going to change is you. And that's the most important thing. You're not going to change the world, but if you change yourself, you've changed the world. And that was basically his advice to young protesters and people involved in social justice. And I think that squares with a lot of the social justice folks who. Who come at it from a spiritual point of view. It is part of what we do. We draw attention publicly to the problem, but we live lives of social justice as well. As much as we're able. It's a reflection of what we do personally, privately.
- [29:11]
C
Yeah. You mentioned Dan. That very much sounds like Dan, by the way. He always had a very poetic way of speaking, too. I loved his don't just do something stand there. That's another favorite, which I love. I'm going to talk about your own spiritual practices for a bit. What do you, you know, what do you. What. Where do you draw nourishment from? Is it the gospels? Is it contemplative prayer? What is your spiritual practice like?
- [29:38]
B
I have become very nourished in the mass and in the Sacrament of Communion. I still some in your audience know, but some may not, that Catholics believe it is not a representation of the Last Supper, but that Christ in Jesus, we believe that he was the Son of God, is the Son and is present and gave us himself in the sacrament. And I believe that. And it begins with we're being called. You know, they don't come to you unless you're an ancient one who can't get out of the pew, but you're called. And so the community, again, it's a communal affair. And I get on the line and I start focusing on what I'm doing. And it is so overwhelming for me still today. I just try to get as close to the most human feeling I have, and that is my brokenness. I have a phrase that we are all part of the bbb, you know, and that's Better Business Bureau for non believers. But it is beautifully broken and blessed. And so I get on the line and I just get. It is the most joyful expression. And it's like all I can say at that point when I'm on the line is, I'm with them. That's it. I'm with them. And whatever. They're old and young and rich and poor and black and white, but we're here and I'm part of them. So you know that old phrase, if you come to the kingdom alone, you're going to be asked one question, where are the others?
- [31:33]
C
I never heard that. You know, I love I'm with them is great. And also he's with them, right? And he's with you, which is so beautiful. Let me ask you something, and I'm sure there are a lot of Catholics that listen to this podcast. What would you say to someone who says, well, gosh, when I go up, it feels so rote. What do I do to help myself feel that real and true presence?
- [31:57]
B
If I had the answer to that, I would be a very sought after spiritual advisor, which I'm not. You know, it's got to be personal. If it's not personal, it's impersonal. If it's impersonal, who cares? You know, it's got to be personal. And you know, once I was asked, some magazine some years ago asked me, asked a whole mess of people to send in their favorite prayer and, and they asked me to join that contribution. And I thought, what is my favorite prayer? Oh, the R. No, the Hail Mary. No. The glory. And then I, I ended up just saying Jesus, mercy. And now sometimes it's just mercy. It's just mercy, you know, it's like when you understand how blessed you are and how crazy. This unbelievable force. We call him one, God, the other, whatever that force is that we. That we embrace as the Son of God, this. This Jesus, this. That we believe is still present and rises within us every day. And even when we throw him out, he's standing by and we don't get away so easily. For every individual, it's different. It's got to be, because there's so many of us. There's an equal number of ways that we relate to this presence. A dear friend of ours, God rest him as Father Bill o' Donnell up in the Bay Area, who was, you know, he spent most of his time in prison. He was a friend of Dan as well. He was a priest. He had St. Joseph of the Worker Parish. And one night we were driving back from a demonstration in the desert, or I was on trial for something or other, and he had accompanied me there, and his mother had died recently, and while we were on the road and we said, we better get you to a plane, get you back there. We were in Nevada. And he said, no, no, I just gave her the last ride. She was like 98 or something just before I left. She's fine now. I'd just like to drive back and you accompany me. So. Okay. So there were four of us in the car, and we would switch off because he loved to drive fast. And. And we always said, bill, calm down. So, you know, and we're driving through the night, so there was the possibility of falling asleep. And so when my turn came to be next to him, I always wanted to ask. I said, father, let me ask. When did this guy, this Jesus, when did he know that it was him? It couldn't have been when he was born. He was still human. He was still evolving. When did he know? Was it at the. The transfiguration? Was it at the. Was it when he knew it was over? He was. They were going to kill him. When did this. This powerful spirit know who he was? And he said, well, Martin, when did you know that you were a mystery?
- [35:02]
C
Wow, that's great.
- [35:05]
B
That's theology. I'm a mystery. Oh, okay. So I'm a mystery. That means you're a mystery and she's a mystery, and they're a mystery. And so what a mystery. You know, I think that we have so much division in our culture and so much division in our nation and so much division in the world because there's so much division within ourselves and we can't be whole and true and human. That's the bottom line. You talk about being spiritual. Be human, be compassionate, be aware. Aware your spirit can be nourished by sharing with another, helping another, being present. Sometimes just be present. Dan talked a lot about that. To be present.
- [35:52]
C
You know, also, I think I love where we're going. I think also we refuse to see the other person as a mystery.
- [35:58]
B
Ah, yes, right.
- [35:59]
C
We see them just as a problem, you know, or just an obstacle.
- [36:05]
B
Right.
- [36:05]
C
Rather than really reverencing them. Can I share with you something about Jesus's consciousness that I really like?
- [36:11]
B
Yes, please.
- [36:12]
C
I was doing this book on Jesus a couple of years ago, and, you know, the two sort of poles are he knew who he was from the very moment of his, you know, self consciousness, you know, even the moment of his conception. Two, he grew in his understanding, which I think to me makes more sense because you see him kind of understanding more at the wedding feast of Cana. He has to be reminded by his mother. Right. And you know, eventually he does. He does sort of embrace that. And Elizabeth Johnson, the theologian, which I love, said it wasn't until his resurrection that I love this, that his ultimate identity burst upon him in all clarity.
- [36:49]
B
Wow.
- [36:50]
C
Isn't that beautiful? Yeah. So I think we're all kind of. We're all in process, I think, and kind of coming to know who we are. Let me ask you something about. You talked about the Mass very beautifully. How about your own personal prayer? What's that like?
- [37:03]
B
My prayer is always, when I'm conscious, is to be present to me. Lord, be present to me. I believe, help my unbelief. It's a very simple prayer, and it's personal. It's like, be present to me and that I may be present to you.
- [37:27]
C
Well, let me ask, you said, lord, be present to me. How is the Lord present to you? In what ways?
- [37:34]
B
In all of those close to me. I see clearly God's presence in everyone close to me. My family and my children, my grandchildren, great grandchildren and all the relatives. You know, one part of my worship you talk about at Mass that I'm very conscious of is that during the offertory, when I say, you know, I lift up my soul to you in gratitude and praise. During the bread, the wine, I say, I lift up all those that you sent to me for love that I have rejected. They know who they are, I know who they are, and you know who we are. It's so hard to participate in the Mass and leave anyone out. Even that he who shall not be mentioned here. You and I discussed on the phone the other day what advice I would have for anyone dealing with him is that I would leave him to heaven and wish God good luck.
- [38:37]
C
So, you know, I think I've told you over the phone, I'm a big fan, but I have been re watching the West Wing lately, which is a friend of mine said, you're watching it for the competence which we are somewhat lacking. You have, I think, one of the great entrances in TV history. Whereas that debate about the first Commandment.
- [38:59]
B
Right.
- [39:00]
C
And of course, you walk in and said, I am the Lord your God. And, of course, President Bartlett's comments about the Bible and homosexuality made a real deep impact on me before I started working with LGBTQ people. So I'm just kind of curious, as a viewer taking a shift, how did your own Catholicism inform that role?
- [39:19]
B
They were inseparable, I tell you. I love to tell this story because when I was offered the role of Josiah Bartlett, I was only to appear in four or five episodes for the first season. In those days, we did 22 shows. Normal series. That's what would be done. And so I was quite fine with that. And then I saw the pilot, and I thought, oh, you know, NBC is going to look at this, and they're going to wonder who works in that office. And so I just waited, and the phone rang, and they invited me to come back as a regular. And I was delighted because originally it was just going to be the staff, and the president would appear on occasion. There would be no first lady or first family, and there wouldn't be a whole lot of personal information about him. So when I came to be a full cast member, I said, I'm only requesting two things. One, that he be Catholic, so that every decision he makes has to be in a moral frame of reference, which I would be personally able to decide. And two, that he have a Notre Dame degree. I got both. Both.
- [40:38]
C
Both equally important. If you're from Notre Dame. They're both equally important. Being Catholic and being from Notre Dame,
- [40:43]
B
you know, Lawrence o' Donnell is one of my heroes and a dear personal friend who is the, you know, the. The host of the Last Word on Ms. Now, Lawrence was a writer and a producer of the West Wing. He's also a lifelong Catholic. And there was always a moral theme available if you chose it, and Lawrence was very aware of that as well. His big thing about what does it mean to be a president or a leader is that you make the decisions. You get a staff that makes suggestions, but you make the decisions. That's why we have a single president. That was so important for me and for the creators of the show that there be a moral frame of reference always in his private life, in his public life, and certainly in his political life. And that he would be a servant and that it would reflect who he was, where he came from, and what he stood for. So I was delighted with that. And also I love the humor and the humanity that, that he, his wife was far brighter than he was. And he knew it.
- [41:52]
C
Now we are going to our audience question from Emma. So, Martin, I will state the question, then I'll answer it, and then we'll turn it over to you and see what you have to say. So Emma asks us, how can working people today take a personal vow of poverty or overcome a consumer culture? So, Emma, as someone who's taken a vow of poverty myself, I know that it's harder sometimes for people outside of religious life. Obviously, if you have a family, you have to have certain amount of money. You need to support yourself, you need to put food on the table, whatnot. But I think that we can always live simply. One bit of advice that I loved when I heard in the novitiate, which sounds a little simplistic but works I live simply. So others may simply live. So I think that the more that we can live simply and really, in a practical way, give the money that we save, right, to charitable causes and people who are really struggling, the better. In terms of the consumer culture, or affluenza, I think it was called once. I think we can decide not to participate in that. Right? It's very easy to just go online and click, click, click away on Amazon and you can make, in a sense, a choice, a conscious choice, not to participate in that. And again, to save money and give it to people. I mean, I always look at it from a very sort of, I went to Wharton, a very sort of practical point of view. The money that you save, you can give away. So I think that's how I look at it. To live simply, so others may simply live. So, Martin Sheen from Emma, how can working people today take a personal vow of poverty or overcome a consumer culture? What would you say to that?
- [43:38]
B
Well, I couldn't improve on your response. Your answer. I would just add to it that the rewards for our labor come through us. They are not us. And so that if we can use the money, the influence, the power of our labors to aid others and to teach them how to deal with what they are given for their labor, I think it's important for people to realize when that money, that power stops with them and it becomes a reflection of them. And that's a real testy problem because it's like, particularly if you've struggled hard and you finally get in the position to make a decent living and you are inclined to, you know, hoard it and to think that that's, I deserve this, and blah, blah, blah. I think that if you're conscientious of others, that you realize it's only coming through you. And I often think of possessions, particularly. It's like we get a possession and we hang on to it, you know, but. But that's all you get. It's only when you risk opening your hand, you're going to receive more. But it's always. It's going through. If you do that, that's all you get. And it stays with you. It dies with you, and part of you dies. But if you're open and you're receptive and in all things, not just financial matters, but all things come through you, they don't stop with you. And it becomes. People know that, that they can depend on you, they can come to you, and you're not going to be stingy or selfish.
- [45:28]
C
Well, thank you on behalf of Emma Martin Sheen. Thank you so much for so many things. Thank you for being such a great Catholic role model for so many people. Thank you for putting yourself on the line, for getting arrested. Thank you for all the wonderful roles you've played, and thank you for sharing so much of your spiritual life on. The spiritual life with. With all of us. So thank you so much.
- [45:52]
B
Oh, thank you, Father. It's been a blessing, a real blessing to finally see you in person, meet you and to thank you for all that you do for all of us. And I'm particularly grateful for your writing as well. I've read particularly your book on prayer, which just the last few years, but you have a lot of fans that are friends of mine as well. And so I'm grateful for what you do and the way you do it and to thank you.
- [46:24]
C
Well, thanks very much. And one more. Thank you. I was a caddy, probably the world's worst caddy. So on behalf of all caddies, thank you for organizing us. We needed it. Thanks very much.
- [46:35]
B
Thank you, Father.
- [46:44]
C
Wow. He was on fire. I just loved listening to him and what energy, you know, Incredible. It's just incredible.
- [46:51]
A
And, you know, he talks so much about having, like, integrity, you know, not being divided as a person. That was a unique insight that I gleaned from Martin Sheen.
- [47:01]
C
I also like the insight and we talked about this off camera of doing his activism in a community. That really struck me. I mean, he talked about that several times and that's a challenge for me too, you know, to really kind of ground yourself in the community.
- [47:15]
A
Yeah. You know, at the start we talked about how one can discern how they want to enact a faith that does justice, how you discern whether you want to be involved in protests or demonstrations or acts of civil disobedience. And I think it's so key what he said about choosing to do so in community, not only because you're not going to accomplish so much as an individual, but also there are some spiritual riches, I believe, to community life that can really guide you.
- [47:42]
C
Yeah, he was a great podcast guest and he's also a podcast host. Can you tell us the name of his podcast?
- [47:48]
A
Yeah. So if you want to listen to more from Martin Sheen, go listen to his podcast. It's called the Martin Sheen Podcast and you can listen to it@themardensheenpodcast.com Now, Jim, what have you reflected on in an article about this episode?
- [48:03]
C
Well, just what we were talking about at the beginning, which is sort of discerning how you're meant to live out a life of social justice. And you can find that in our show notes. Also, I'd like to let you know that I have a new book out, a memoir called Work in Progress. It's the story of finding work through a variety of crazy summer jobs like busboy, dishwasher, caddy, factory worker and many more. And eventually finding God. Basically, it's a light hearted spiritual memoir about growing up in the 60s, 70s and 80s and is available in print, ebook and audio anywhere. Books are sold. I really hope you enjoy Work in Progress. The Spiritual Life with Father James Martin is produced by Maggie Van Dorn, Sebastian Gomes and myself, production assistants from Kevin Christopher Robles and Will Gualtieri. Adam Buckmuller engineered the show. The theme score is courtesy of Tim, Teddy Abrams and Nate Farrington. You can follow me across social media. Amesmartinsj thank you so much and God bless you. Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same Premium Wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities. So do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you
- [49:28]
B
to Mint Mobile today.
- [49:30]
C
I'm told it's super easy to do@mintmobile.com
- [49:33]
A
Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month required intro rate first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees, extra fee, full terms@mintmobile.com.