Anthea Butler on intellectual Catholicism, evangelicalism and why the ‘prosperity gospel’ persists

Summary

Podcast Summary: Anthea Butler on Intellectual Catholicism, Evangelicalism, and the Persistence of the Prosperity Gospel

The Spiritual Life with Fr. James Martin, S.J., hosted by America Media, delves into how individuals experience God through prayer and daily life. In the July 15, 2025 episode, Fr. Jim Martin and producer Maggie Van Dorn engage in a profound conversation with Dr. Anthea Butler, a renowned Professor of American Social Thought and Chair of Religious Studies at the University of Pennsylvania.

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Introduction

[00:04] Father Jim Martin:
Fr. Jim Martin welcomes listeners to "The Spiritual Life" podcast, emphasizing the show's focus on personal experiences of God in prayer and daily activities. He introduces his producer, Maggie Van Dorn.

[00:21] Maggie Van Dorn:
Maggie introduces Dr. Anthea Butler, highlighting her academic credentials, including her expertise in African American religious history, evangelicalism, Pentecostalism, and the intersection of religion, race, and politics. She notes Butler's contributions to the 1619 Project, her MSNBC columns, and her receipt of the 2022 Martin E. Marty Award for the Public Understanding of Religion.

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Audience Question: Aligning Faith and Practice with Jesus

[01:48] Mary's Question:
Mary asks, “How can one align their faith and practice as Jesus so clearly did in the Gospels?”

[02:54] Father Jim Martin's Response:
Fr. Martin acknowledges human imperfection in emulating Jesus but stresses the importance of striving to follow His clear teachings on love, mercy, compassion, forgiveness, and caring for the marginalized. He references Matthew 25, highlighting Jesus’ emphasis on assisting those in need without requiring complex theological understanding.

[02:54] Maggie Van Dorn's Addition:
Maggie complements Jim’s response by suggesting that caring for others should extend to self-care, recognizing that we too have aspects of ourselves that feel marginalized or excluded.

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Anthea Butler's Religious Journey

[04:48] Introduction to Anthea Butler:
Anthea Butler shares her upbringing as a black Catholic in Texas, delving into the historical context of African American Catholicism. She explains how her family's Catholicism originated from Louisiana's history, where slavery necessitated the baptism of slaves, albeit with limited sacraments.

[05:03] Anthea Butler's Background:
Butler recounts growing up with a strong Catholic influence from her grandmother, frequenting St. Martinville, Louisiana, a parish founded by Catherine Drexel. She describes the racial dynamics within the church and the limited participation of black congregants in certain church activities.

[08:28] Challenges in Texas Catholicism:
In Texas, Butler experienced predominantly white congregations, leading to a sense of disconnect. She contrasts her rich Catholic upbringing in Louisiana with the less inclusive environment in Texas, which contributed to her eventual exploration of evangelicalism.

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Transition to Evangelicalism

[09:34] Exploring Evangelicalism:
Butler discusses her conversion to evangelicalism, motivated by a desire for a more emotional and scripturally focused spiritual experience. She recounts attending Fuller Seminary in Pasadena, where she found an open environment conducive to questioning and intellectual growth.

[13:53] Encounter with Jesuit Influence:
Butler explains that her journey back to Catholicism was significantly influenced by Fr. Jim Pratt, a Jesuit priest, whom she met at Vanderbilt University. She describes a pivotal spiritual experience where she felt compelled to attend Mass, leading to her re-engagement with Catholicism.

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Intellectual Catholicism vs. Catholicism of Practice

[15:00] Catholicism of Intellect:
Butler highlights a key disconnect in her Catholic upbringing—while she was deeply involved in the practices of the faith, she lacked an intellectual understanding. Her time in evangelical circles emphasized reading Scripture and questioning, which fueled her desire for a more intellectually robust Catholic tradition.

[17:14] Fr. Martin's Reflection:
Fr. Martin agrees, noting that many Catholics lack exposure to the intellectual traditions of the Church due to limited education outside Catholic institutions. He emphasizes the importance of making Catholic intellectual traditions more accessible.

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Challenges and Advocacy for Women in the Church

[21:37] Women's Roles in Catholicism:
Butler expresses her desire for greater advancement of women's roles within the Church. While she admires Pope Francis, she believes more substantial actions are needed to enhance the status and participation of women in ecclesiastical structures.

[21:37] Future of the Church:
She uses the metaphor of the Church as a large ship, slow to turn, anticipating gradual but necessary changes driven by declining vocations and internal advocacy.

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Evangelical Influences Within the Catholic Church

[26:43] Strains of Evangelical Thinking:
Butler critiques the infiltration of evangelical ideologies into Catholicism, using J.D. Vance's Ordo Amoris as an example. She argues that such influences misrepresent Catholic theology and underscores the necessity for Catholics to understand and adhere to their own traditions to resist evangelical distortions.

[27:54] Catholic vs. Evangelical Perspectives:
She contrasts the Catholic understanding of love, rooted in divine-first priority, with evangelical views that often prioritize familial and individual measures, highlighting the theological inversions present in evangelical thought.

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Critique of the Prosperity Gospel

[34:11] Understanding the Prosperity Gospel:
Butler offers a thorough critique of the prosperity gospel, tracing its roots to the Protestant ethic and the spirit of capitalism as described by Weber. She contends that this theology promotes a transactional view of faith, where financial blessing is seen as a reward for faithfulness, thereby eroding empathy for the less fortunate.

[37:54] Societal Impacts:
She discusses the prosperity gospel's alignment with American cultural values of individualism and material success, arguing that it fosters a mindset where suffering is perceived as a result of insufficient faith, thus devaluing communal support and social justice.

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Personal Spiritual Practices and Ignatian Spirituality

[39:45] Butler's Spiritual Practices:
Butler shares her personal spiritual practices, which emphasize reading, quiet reflection, and contemplative action inspired by Ignatian spirituality. She appreciates the Jesuit approach of integrating spirituality with active engagement in the world.

[31:45] Experiences in Rome:
Recounting her visit to Rome, Butler reflects on witnessing homelessness around the Vatican, which reinforced her commitment to seeing Jesus in the marginalized and underscored the importance of embodying Catholic social teaching.

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Conclusion and Final Reflections

[41:18] Maggie Van Dorn's Observations:
Maggie praises Butler's emphasis on "Catholicism of intellect," noting its significance in fostering a deeper, more thoughtful engagement with faith. She highlights the need for the Church to better educate its members outside formal Catholic education systems.

[44:10] The Role of Community and Mentors:
Fr. Martin and Maggie discuss the profound impact of relationships and mentorship in Butler's spiritual journey, emphasizing the Catholic understanding of community as integral to personal faith development.

Notable Quotes:

1. Anthea Butler on Catholic Intellect:
   "I got the Catholicism of practice. I didn't get the Catholicism of intellect."
   [15:00]

2. Critique of Prosperity Gospel:
   "The prosperity gospel has killed our empathy for people who don't have."
   [34:11]

3. Metaphor for the Church's Transformation:
   "The church is like a big, giant ship that you gotta figure out how you're gonna turn, and it's too big to just turn it fast."
   [21:19]

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Key Takeaways

• Intellectual Engagement:
  Butler underscores the necessity of intellectual engagement within Catholicism, advocating for a "Catholicism of intellect" that encourages questioning and critical thinking alongside practice.

• Impact of Prosperity Gospel:
  The prosperity gospel's transactional view of faith is critiqued for undermining empathy and social justice, aligning too closely with individualistic and capitalistic societal values.

• Challenges for Women in the Church:
  Butler advocates for enhanced roles and recognition of women within the Catholic Church, highlighting ongoing struggles and the need for gradual transformation.

• Influence of Personal Relationships:
  The role of mentors and community support is emphasized as crucial in navigating and shaping one's spiritual journey within and outside of institutional religious settings.

• Integration of Spirituality and Action:
  Embracing Ignatian spirituality, Butler practices a contemplative yet active faith, integrating personal spirituality with societal engagement and advocacy for the marginalized.

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Closing Remarks

[46:58] Father Jim Martin:
Fr. Martin concludes the episode by providing production credits and encouraging listeners to subscribe, engage, and support the podcast through reviews. He highlights the availability of additional content on America Magazine’s website and invites the community to grow together in faith and understanding.

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This detailed summary captures the essence of the conversation between Fr. Jim Martin, Maggie Van Dorn, and Dr. Anthea Butler, highlighting critical discussions on intellectual Catholicism, the influence of evangelicalism, and the persistent challenges posed by the prosperity gospel within the broader context of modern Catholicism.

Transcript

[Father Jim Martin]

Welcome to the spiritual life. I'm Father Jim Martin. On this podcast, we reflect on how people experience God in their prayer and their daily lives. And I am joined by my wonderful producer, Maggie Van Dorn. Maggie, good to be with you again.

[Maggie Van Dorn]

Good to be with you, Jim. Who are we speaking with this week?

[Father Jim Martin]

We are very excited to speak with Anthea Butler, who I met first online. I really was taken by actually her tweets, which were very thoughtful and grounded and challenging. And then when I found out she was teaching at the University of Pennsylvania, my alma mater, I was even more interested and then met her in person and she's just fantastic. But tell us a little bit more about Anthea, Maggie.

[Maggie Van Dorn]

Dr. Anthea Butler is a professor of American Social Thought and the Chair of Religious Studies at the University of Pennsylvania.

[Father Jim Martin]

Go Quakers.

[Maggie Van Dorn]

She specializes in African American religious history, evangelicalism, Pentecostalism, and the intersect of religion, race and politics. Her books include White Evangelical Racism and Women in the Church of God in Christ. Anthea has contributed to the 1619 Project from the New York Times, which is also an incredible podcast, definitely worth checking out. And she is a regular columnist for MSNBC. Anthea was awarded the 2022 Martin E. Marty Award for the Public Understanding of Religion and is President Elect of the American Society for Church. So we have a great conversation with Anthea that we're going to share in just a minute. But first, Jim, I would like to get to our audience question. So this question comes from Mary. And Mary asks, how can one align their faith and practice as Jesus so clearly did in the Gospels?

[Father Jim Martin]

Well, Mary, thanks for that question. The first thing is we can't do it as clearly and as well and as perfectly as Jesus did. So that's the first thing. So we need to kind of cut ourselves some slack a little bit, but not too much slack because I think what's interesting about the Gospels is that, you know, there's some parts of the Gospels that are, you know, a little hard to understand. What did Jesus mean by this parable or this particular Aramaic practice, right? Or first century practice in Judea or Galilee. But a lot of the stuff he was pretty clear on, right? Being loving, merciful, compassionate, forgiving. That's a tough one. And especially caring for those people who are poor, who are sick, who are marginalized in any way, who are suffering. Matthew 25 is often seen as the litmus test for entrance into the reign of God. And that is Jesus saying, when I was a stranger, you visited me. When I was sick, you cared for me. When I was homeless. You housed me. And it's pretty clear you don't have to be a rocket scientist or a New Testament scholar to know what Jesus is asking. So I would just say do your best and follow what Jesus not only did in the Gospels, but also said that we should do in the Gospels.

[Maggie Van Dorn]

Yeah, it's a great answer. And I would only add to it that just as we are to treat the excluded and outcast and marginalized in society, that we also show that kind of love and compassion towards the parts of ourselves that might feel excluded and marginalized and outcast and that somehow I think those two are connected.

[Father Jim Martin]

Absolutely. Absolutely. It's, you know, loving ourselves, loving God and loving neighbor.

[Maggie Van Dorn]

Right.

[Father Jim Martin]

And Anthea gives a great answer to that question. It's really well worth waiting for. So thanks, Mary. Thanks for that great question, and I hope it helps.

[Maggie Van Dorn]

And if any of you would like to ask Father Jim a question, you can write to [e-mail] and now a.

[Father Jim Martin]

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[Anthea Butler]

Thank you, Father Martin.

[Father Jim Martin]

I'm so, so happy to have you here. I have so many questions. First of all, you were raised Catholic, but practiced evangelicalism for a time. Can you just walk us through that? Your family of origin, your Catholic faith and what that was like?

[Anthea Butler]

Well, this will be a good story. I think a lot of people don't really understand black Catholics in America sometimes. So let me talk about it from a historical perspective first, and I can tell you why I ended up the way I did. Grew up in Texas. My mother's from Louisiana. As far as we can tell, we are fourth generation back Catholic. And the reason why we're Catholic on my mother's side is because of slavery. Obviously, they came through the port of New Orleans. The Court Noir said in seven days, if you are Catholic and you buy a slave, you have to baptize them. Now, that didn't mean you got the sacraments or anything. You might get the sacraments once a year. You might get communion. It's very rare that people got confirmation or anything because it was very. The priests had to go around from different plantations. I know we're starting off heavy, but.

[Father Jim Martin]

No, it's interesting.

[Anthea Butler]

It's very interesting. So I grew up very Catholic with a Catholic grandmother who, while she was well, watched etwn all the time. Eternal Word. I grew up listening to Mother Angelica and prayed the rosary all the time. When we had funerals, it was the rosary and everything. And the Catholic Church that we went to, this will be the connection to our new pope was on the bayou in St. Martinville, Louisiana. That Catholic church was started by Catherine Drexel.

[Father Jim Martin]

Oh, wow.

[Anthea Butler]

Okay. And she started the school first, and then it was the Catholic Church. Because at the time in St. Martinville, there's only one Catholic church. And so when there were both black and white people going to that church, that parish, black people could not participate in the sodalities. You couldn't do the altar cloths. You couldn't do anything. But when that Catholic Church came, then it was a way in which black women, men could participate. Okay. St. Martinville is also the place where I know you're going. I can't believe we're starting off with this much history. It's also the place where you had one of the first black Society for Divine Word priests. They were first Cohort in the 1920s. They had a priest there maybe 19, 32, 34. Okay. So that's what my mother grew up with. And every summer we would go to church down there. And about when I was 10, I looked around and said, well, you know, there's a lot of white people in this church. And my mother goes, they're not white. They're Creoles. It was all black church. But to me, they all looked like you. And I didn't know the difference. You know, I'm darker skinned, they're lighter skinned, but I didn't realize who they were. So it was very interesting because I had two forms of Catholicism. One was my Louisiana Catholicism growing up, and then the Catholicism growing up in Texas, where you were the minority and you'd be out on Sunday in 45 minutes to an hour. And all the rest of your friends were not at the restaurant because they were in church for three or four hours because they're all Baptist. Right. So that was interesting. My dad, I always thought before he told us this, converted because he wanted to marry my mother, because he grew up Baptist. That was not the case when he was 17, in the 1950s. This is another historical story about black Catholics. He converted because a family down the street from him asked him to go to Mass. And he said, I didn't like all the screaming they did in the Baptist church. And so when he went to the Air Force in California, believe it or not, he started talking to a Catholic priest there. And that's how he became Catholic. So when they both got married, they were both Catholic. And that's how I got here and went to Catholic school. So that's part one. I gotta tell the rest of the part. But I'm just. I had to tell this history because if I just tell you I'm Catholic, it doesn't mean anything. But if I tell you the history, it's a very big history.

[Father Jim Martin]

No, it's so interesting. You're embedded in that culture. And so let me get this straight. So the parishes in Texas, were they predominantly white?

[Anthea Butler]

No, in Louisiana.

[Father Jim Martin]

In Louisiana, that's where I spent summers with my grandmother.

[Anthea Butler]

Right. But in Texas, you know, we had a white congregation. So let's think about post Vatican ii. So this was my experience. I will not name the parish because it'll pick on them. But in this particular parish that I grew up in, when we started doing the Sign of Peace, you would look around and hope that the white person would shake your hand. And maybe they would, and maybe they wouldn't. But I also went to Catholic school there. So we had. At the time that I was going to Catholic school, we had both nuns and we had lay people. And so that was kind of an interesting thing because I had been used to seeing nuns when I go home in the summer. And the parish in Louisiana, but coming back to Texas, it was already a mix of. So it's very interesting how that happened. And I also went to ccd. All you Catholics out here will know what that is. I went to ccd. But probably the reason why I am the way I am is cause I asked too many questions in CCD and they didn't know how to answer them.

[Father Jim Martin]

That's good. Would you have considered yourself a religious kid?

[Anthea Butler]

Yes. I mean, I was always reading stuff. I mean, it was either Lives of the Saints or something, or. I had a lot of questions about the Mass. Right. So. Yes. And that sense religious. Right. Cause I paid attention. It was the Popes or whatever. Cause my. You know, I was around people who were very religious and very pious in that Catholic way. And I think we don't think about that sometimes, about how different people of ethnic groups have their piety. You know, in Texas, we think about, you know, the Mexican population or whatever, but people didn't think about Louisiana Catholics that way because it was like, oh, you all are just into crawfish and zydeco dancing. Right. But it was something very different for us because it was a part of our lives and very much a part of. You could look and talk to somebody and say, well, I come from this parish and people would know each other. So it was very interconnected. Yeah.

[Father Jim Martin]

It's a certain kind of Catholicism.

[Anthea Butler]

Right.

[Father Jim Martin]

I mean, the cultural Catholicism in different parts of the country. They're so unique, you know, and kind of beautiful. And I think when you are introduced to one, you can say, well, this whole world that I didn't know existed. Now, I didn't want to get to this so soon. But that must have been exciting when you heard about Pope Leo's background.

[Anthea Butler]

Absolutely. I was so excited because all of us. Well, most of us. Now, this is very interesting. This is a secret. Some of us who grew up that way knew when we looked at him what was up. Now, this may sound very strange to people, but there's something you just know. It's like a knowing inside of you. So we knew he's Creole, and that was really interesting. Then when everything started coming out about his family, then it was like this thing. And my friend who lived in New Orleans was actually the first person while I was in Rome who told me, and I started looking, and everybody was talking about it, oh, he's from the 7th Ward, and this is great. And blah, blah, blah. So there's a sense of pride, I think, for Louisiana Catholic about this. Especially Southern Louisiana Catholics. Yeah.

[Father Jim Martin]

Yeah. I mean, I know the name Prevost would be French, but I was surprised and delighted. He's so. I mean, in a sense, it's such an American story.

[Anthea Butler]

Yeah, it very much is.

[Father Jim Martin]

So you're a religious girl and young woman. How long would you say that lasted with Catholicism?

[Anthea Butler]

The first 25 years before I moved to Los Angeles. And then it was hard because basically what happened was I found myself in a situation where I didn't like any of the parishes. It wasn't very friendly, and I had Friends who were evangelicals. Let me be specific about this. Pentecostals who were come to church with us, blah, blah, blah. It's that thing where John Wesley says, your heart feels strangely warmed. And, you know, in Catholicism, sometimes you're singing those hymns, and you're just like, this is the driest thing on earth. God, I'm not feeling anything. And I felt something. And I was like, I feel compelled to go for the altar call, right? And I did. And I started getting very involved in this church, and that's what led me to go to seminary. And, you know, I thought erroneously that I would be a counselor because I thought, yeah, I want to help people, blah, blah, blah. But I don't have that kind of counseling personality. My personality is more like, you messed that up. You need to fix this. So I didn't have that kind of personality. But what was good about me going to seminary is that I think what had been the disconnect for me in my Catholicism growing up was that I got the Catholicism of practice. I didn't get the Catholicism of intellect. And when you have somebody who's asking you a lot of questions and the priest can't answer your questions, and the sisters tell you to shut up, then you lose your thing. And, you know, evangelicals were like, well, just read Scripture. You know, I hadn't read the Bible before, and I started thinking about all these things. You think about the languages you can learn and all of this. And that really changed me. But it also was the thing that brought me back, and that's the interesting part, was that going this route wasn't a route that made me leave Catholicism altogether. For me, it was the route that helped me to figure out where my spirituality was and what I needed. And for me, it was more like lecto divina. It was more like, I need to read. I need to think about things. I need to inquire and question. Because if you don't question, then you don't really know. And people don't like to question God. I was not somebody who wanted certainty all the time. And evangelicals want certainty. I wanted the mess. And I had already started off a process, and it was a Jesuit who really brought me back.

[Father Jim Martin]

And who is that, can I ask?

[Anthea Butler]

It was my friend Jim Pratt. Oh, sure. Yes. We've talked about him before. He's deceased now, but it happened when I was at Vanderbilt as a student, and basically, sorry, but hopefully he's listening to this. There's a priest from Canisius who used to come to the Library. And I worked in the library when I was doing my doctorate. And I asked him one day, I said, you know, I've been out of Catholicism for a while, but I want to think about coming back to Mass and everything. He's like, you know, you never left, right? They didn't take your name off the rolls. We don't ever take name names off the rolls unless we're gonna, you know, excommunicate somebody. I was like, well, that's good to know. And I had had a couple of experiences that were not good experiences at evangelical churches in Nashville. And Jim came as the Catholic chaplain. And when he came as a chaplain, I will never forget this. So this was my spiritual experience. Okay. My spiritual experience was probably gonna read very differently than other people. I was walking down the hall one day, and it was All Saints Day, and he was about to do Mass, and we had this chapel that was named All Faith Chapel, but we colloquially called it no Faith Chapel at Vanderbilt. And I looked down hall, he's about to walk down the aisle. He looked at me, and I looked at him. I said, I need to go to Mass.

[Father Jim Martin]

Wow.

[Anthea Butler]

That's how it happened. And I came to Mass, I started spiritual direction with him. And then I thought, after about six weeks, I was like, you know, I think we're gonna be friends. We probably should stop doing spiritual direction. And that's what happened.

[Father Jim Martin]

That's a great. There's so much I want to explore, if you don't mind. First of all, you look into his eyes, and, I don't know, God spoke to me, maybe.

[Anthea Butler]

I don't know.

[Father Jim Martin]

What were you feeling?

[Anthea Butler]

I just felt like I felt impelled to go in and go to Mass. I did. It was a very interesting feeling. It was like, I'm supposed to go to Mass today.

[Father Jim Martin]

Let me back you up a little bit, if you don't mind. So you said in your 20s you were drawn to evangelicalism. So where are you in your life? You finished college?

[Anthea Butler]

Finished college working. And then I had been active in the church and feeling like I had something to offer. Right. Wanting to give something to people. Right. And seeing people in pain and suffering and all of that. But there were a lot of people who were going to seminary. And I should probably just name the seminary, because a lot of people know this already. It's Fuller Seminary in Pasadena, probably the big evangelical seminary, and very California in a lot of different ways. And that was a good place for me, but it was also an open place for me. And what I mean by that, it was a place open to questioning. And I found really good mentors there and people who were willing to talk to me. And one particular mentor that I had, Mel Robeck, had been involved in the Catholic Pentecostal dialogue. So I had to say this because it's like. It's really important to say the kind of people I had around me, because that was also part of it. So it actually happened that I was in one of his early Christianity classes, early church class, and we went over the Nicene Creed. I've been saying the Creed for years. Nobody explained this to me. He'd just say the Creed. Right. And he broke it down. And I started crying in class because I was like, oh, finally somebody's explaining this to me. And for me, this is actually a big part of being a Catholic, is that there's a Catholicism of practice, but there's the Catholicism of intellect. And the Catholicism that some of us need is a Catholicism. That is this huge tradition of scholars and intellects. And everyone who are saying, this is why we do what we do. This is why it's homoosios instead of homoosion. Right. And everybody just went, what the hell's that? But. But it's that. That's what got me.

[Father Jim Martin]

You're right. So many Catholics don't know the tradition. And it's not because they're uninterested or they're ignorant, they're stupid. It's just no one's taught it to them. And so I find I don't know what your experience is. Sometimes when you present it to them, they're a little surprised and sometimes a little shocked and sometimes a little challenged and sometimes a little annoyed. Like, what are you talking about? Catholic social teaching. And what do you mean, the Nicene Creed means this? Yeah. So I can sympathize with that.

[Anthea Butler]

I'm sure you get that a lot. Because they want you to be the celebrity priest, want you to be this person who's like, I'm challenging you about your faith and asking you this question. Right?

[Father Jim Martin]

Yeah. Or if you ask them a question, if you say, this is part of our tradition, they say, no, you're making that up. Like the primacy of conscience, for example. No, you're making that stuff up. So you're in seminary and then take us through the rest of. After seminary.

[Anthea Butler]

After seminary, I go to Vanderbilt to do my PhD. After everybody says, yeah, I should do this. You can really stretch. You can think. And I go to do my Ph.D. which is actually. This will be the scary part. People know me as an American religion historian, but I actually am a 2000 year church historian, so I can talk about origin and all of it, but, you know, and plus, that would bore everybody. But we're not gonna go there today, you know, so that was an interesting time because there I was in the buckle of the Bible belt, Nashville, right. And I had visited a couple of churches trying to figure out what to do. This was before my friend Jim Pratt came. And then. And I realized I was like, this is not gonna work for me because these people are not thinking. My professor, who ended up being my advisor, took us to this Pentecostal church. And I remember there were two very big things that happened. We had somebody who was gay with us, and of course, the pastor started a diatribe about gays, right. And which was terrible. And that person was very offended. That was one. And then the second thing that happened is that towards the end of his sermon, he says, well, you don't need education, you just need the Holy Ghost. And I just thought, yeah, but the Holy Ghost can show up in education. And like, I'm not feeling you. And that was kind of my beginning of, like, that was literally my first semester there. And I just thought, this is not gonna work for me.

[Father Jim Martin]

When you came back to Catholicism, were there things about the evangelical tradition that you missed?

[Anthea Butler]

I missed the, you know, interrogation of scripture, I think, where people would ask questions about it. That's one. And I think the thing that I didn't miss, what I missed about evangelicalism was the ways in which people would get together. And I know people get together in parishes. And now that eventually happened for me at Vanderbilt because we had a really robust Catholic community there. But I think that what I missed about it was that sense in which people would call each other or do things. Sometimes I feel like in parishes, unless you're connected a certain way, that doesn't happen. You can feel very distant until you come to the mass and you shake somebody's hand, but then you leave. Right? So for all of that, that's what I missed, but I didn't miss all the rest of it. I didn't miss the judgmental stuff. And I also didn't like. And this is going to sound very strange to people, but I didn't like the way women were treated and I didn't like the way that I was being treated. And there was one particular instance that I had all these things that were leading up to me going back to the Catholic Church, but one big thing defined it. And that big thing that defined it was the World Council of Churches was having a big thing at Harare, and this is 1998, and I had been involved in the ecumenical dialogue between Reformed and Pentecostals. And the reason why I was on the Pentecostal side was because people knew I knew this very well from my studies, right? And it was my professor at Fuller who invited me. But I had got invited by the head of the World Council of Churches to go to Zimbabwe. And when I approached the denomination that I had been going to church in, Pentecostal Church, they were like, we're gonna send a pastor. And that, to me, was the immediate thing, was like, you know what? No, you don't care that I'm working on a PhD. You don't care anything about this. And so now I know that God is calling me elsewhere. And at the same time, literally two days later, I got a letter asking me to interview at the institution I got hired at eventually, Laurel and Marymount.

[Father Jim Martin]

No, it's so much there. There's so much there.

[Anthea Butler]

I'm sorry.

[Father Jim Martin]

I'm doing that. No, no, I don't apologize. I think it's so interesting. One of the things I can imagine and some people saying is, well, gosh, in Catholicism, don't you feel women's roles are not where you want them to be? For example, is that the same? Yeah.

[Anthea Butler]

No, absolutely. I wish Pope Francis had done more. I love Pope Francis, but I wish he had done more. That's number one. I think that's where he fell off. I will say that publicly. I think that he could have done a lot more. I hope that maybe the Senate, when the final results come out and all of this and Publio decides to work on this, I think I can already see some changes that he's making that might be helpful. You know, I never wanted to be a priest. I want to say this up front, and I'm not for the priest's life. That's not me. I admire you for doing it. That would not be me. I also think that for women in the church, we've always known that women have been a very important piece of the Catholic Church. You don't have Marian devotion unless you understand the Catholic Church. You do not understand that. At the same time, I do think the church could be a lot better about women. I think that they could be a lot better about a lot of things. And, you know, just like you have divorced people and laws have changed and all of that stuff, the church is like a big, giant ship that you gotta figure out how you're gonna turn, and it's too big to just turn it fast. You can't turn it fast. And I'm sure there are going to be people who'll be upset with me by saying this, but I think it will come. It may not come in my lifetime, but I think it will come. And it will have to come out of necessity, because the necessity is that you're not going to have enough people taking vocations well.

[Father Jim Martin]

And I think that image of the ship is a really important one. And, I mean, the bark of Peter and all that. When I was at the synod, one of the things. I don't know if we've talked about this before, one of the things that I had a little bit of a conversion on was I'm pretty impatient. I want things to be done immediately. And I think I used to think that if I sat down in front of somebody and just, you know, shared and not convinced, but, yeah, they change and not so. And I was talking especially about LGBTQ issues and women's issues and whatnot, and you could sit down with the delegate and, you know, talk to your blue in the face and share a story and be disclosive and, you know, share your emotions, and, you know, they're still where they were. And I remember thinking, I have a whole lot of sympathy for Pope Francis, you know, who was trying to move the church ahead, and for Pope Leo now, too, but also not go so fast. Right. That you break off. And I have to say, before I went over, I would have said no, no. I mean, it's all about prophecy and truth and all that, and people should catch up, but it's not. And you have to. To, in a sense, sort of accept that as a Catholic, which is tough. I think that's tough for a lot of people, particularly in the US and in the west, to accept.

[Anthea Butler]

Yeah. I mean, you have to accept that bureaucracy moves slow, and the Catholic Church is a big, giant bureaucracy, whether people like it or not. It really is. And that I think, in that sense, we can't expect it to turn overnight, but we can't expect the voices like yours and mine who keep saying to change this. It's not gonna work out, that continue to clamor.

[Father Jim Martin]

Do you feel welcome as a black woman in the Catholic Church, maybe in your parish or in the church in general?

[Anthea Butler]

Mostly, yes, because I pick and choose where I go. Right. I think I don't feel different because I know that I come in to a liturgy that everybody is having, whether that's in the language that I understand or not. Right. And that I feel comfortable where I am because I am who I am. Right. But I know for a lot of people that's not the case. And I'm thinking, especially now, where we have, at least in America, so many political divides. It depends on what parish you're going to, whether or not you fit in. And I think there are some parishes that I would never go to right now because I know I don't politically fit in. I know that they may not be what I think about immigrants. They may not be where I think about social justice. Even though those are Catholic teachings, they may not be there. And so I think that's a space for me that I try to navigate.

[Father Jim Martin]

Yeah. One of the most powerful stories I've ever heard. Do you know, you probably know him, Ralph McLeod. Do you know that name?

[Anthea Butler]

Yes, I do.

[Father Jim Martin]

So he was head of Catholic Campaign for Human Development. I will never forget this. And this was. He said this publicly, so I can say it. So Ralph, who's African American, was at Georgetown, and we were at a conference, and he traveled a lot for his job for the bishops conference. And he was, you know, someplace.

[Anthea Butler]

And he.

[Father Jim Martin]

One Sunday morning, he looked up the parish, you know, the local parish and, you know, as one does when one is traveling, and he. He goes in the door and it's all white, basically. And the pastor comes up to him and says, oh, hi, excuse me. You know this is a Catholic parish, right? And Ralph said, I do. Do you know that this is a Catholic parish?

[Anthea Butler]

That's good. Yeah.

[Father Jim Martin]

We're going to pause for a short break, but we'll be back in a minute. Let me ask you in terms of your background in evangelicalism, One of the things I'm dying to ask you, when you look at the Catholic Church today in the United States, do you see kind of strains of evangelical thinking in the church? And how would you describe it and what's your reaction to it?

[Anthea Butler]

Can I pick on somebody really big right now? I want to talk about J.D. vance and the whole thing that dust up about Ora Morris. That whole description he gave was an evangelical description of how they think about the family. It was not Catholic. And I was like, the first thing I thought was, ah, he's got a convert. And I'm not against converts. Let me just say this up front. But it was a question of teaching. He didn't know it. And he voiced something that was evangelical instead of Catholic. And I think that's true for a lot of Catholics. I think that they pick up the things that are out here in public about evangelicalism. And granted, we have a lot of Catholics who listen to evangelical preachers, Right. And they pick up these things that are evangelical theology, and they're not Catholic at all, and they don't even know their own tradition. This is where I get back to the intellectual piece of just knowing what your tradition is. Right. Because if you know it, then you don't have to think about what this other stuff is. You can engage with it, but you have to know how to discern. And I think discernment is really important.

[Father Jim Martin]

Well, let's unpack that for our listeners and our viewers. So JD Vance talked about the Ordo Amoris, which is based on Aquinas and Augustine and this idea that basically we start with love of those closest to us, and then we expand out, as he described it. How would you look at that from a Catholic point of view?

[Anthea Butler]

From a Catholic point of view. I feel like. I'm like, you should probably understand this the way that it's supposed to be understood. We love God and then we move down. Right. But I think for evangelicals, it's all like, the head of the head household is the father, and then you have the family, and then God's over all of that. But it's a different kind of inversion. Right. And there's a culture right now in American Catholicism that looks very much like.

[Father Jim Martin]

American evangelicalism to me, that is very insightful. There is something in the American culture that I think wants, I would say, clear answers, black and white answers. And I think when you look at the Order Amoris, and you're encouraged to instead look at, or in addition look at the parable, the Good Samaritan, which is about, you know, obviously the opposite. It's about taking care of someone who's a complete stranger. Right. And is supposed to be kind of an enemy, you know, the Jews and the Samaritans. I think what's a struggle for a lot of Catholics is that, you know, that's about mystery. And I mean, the parables are supposed to kind of, as C.H. dodd said, tease your mind into active thought. It's not about, Here are the 10 things that make up a neighbor, and here are the limits, you know, And I think. I think Catholics are sometimes really uncomfortable with the mystery. And I think that's really insightful because we are in a kind of black and white culture sometimes. Let me ask you something about. This is something I've been thinking about a lot. Do you think that converts are. I mean, at the Easter vigil, we celebrate people who obviously. Yeah, yeah. Do you think they're respected or denigrated? Because I've heard people, you know, kind of dismiss them. I mean, let me put that in context for our listeners. Like, oh, well, they shouldn't critique the church because they've only been, you know, Catholic for a couple of years. Or, I mean, you've had kind of a unique experience kind of leaving and coming back. What's your take on that?

[Anthea Butler]

As somebody who's kind of made jokes about this, I will confess and ask for absolution here.

[Father Jim Martin]

First of all, I have to give it to you.

[Anthea Butler]

Of course you have to give it to me because I'm here. Right. But I think the thing about converse is that this is a massive thing to learn. And when you are trying to figure it out, the natural thing as a human being to do is want to compare it to something that you know. And you can't compare this to something, you know. If you come in for the first time, I think about. I took a friend through RCIA a few years ago. It's probably been more than 10 years ago. And it was really interesting talking to her because she was trying to put this against her evangelical upbringing. Right. She was Korean. And so that was a whole different thing as we were moving through shamanism and Korean and then Catholic Church. The Catholic Church actually made more sense to her in certain kinds of ways. But there were things that she thought that were sort of like, I don't know. And we kind of worked through that. And I think sometime for converts, the zeal of wanting to be N n n is always the front and center thing for them because they know it's like, I wasn't born this way. I didn't get, you know, like me got baptized literally within three weeks of being born. You know, that didn't happen for them, but they had to come through it another way. And there was something they found about the Catholic Church that was beautiful and right and spoke to them spiritually.

[Father Jim Martin]

Let's shift a little bit. Let's talk about your own personal spiritual practices today. Prayer, going to Mass. What do you do that helps you stay grounded and connected to God? You're terrible. In what way?

[Anthea Butler]

No, I mean, then I don't do. I am not like my mother. I am not like my mother's friends. I am not like one of my friends parents who used to go to Mass every day. That's not where I get it from. I get it in reading. I get it through quiet moments. Sometimes I'm sitting outside looking at birds, and I'm like, okay, that's God speaking to me about something. Right. And I think the reason why I have always been attracted to Jesuit spirituality and Ignatian spirituality more specifically, is because there's a way in which you can be in motion and be spiritual.

[Father Jim Martin]

What a great way of saying it. Contemplative in action.

[Anthea Butler]

Yeah. You all don't spend a whole bunch of time praying. That's why I like going to Jesuit masses.

[Father Jim Martin]

We're supposed to.

[Anthea Butler]

Yeah, we're supposed to. But you don't. Right. But it's the active being of, you know, it's not that I'm gonna put this spirituality in the corner. I'm gonna pray my rosary or whatever and do this in the corner, and then I'm gonna come out and do everything else. I think it's something you think about all about it and being. You know, one of the things that was really arresting to me, I hadn't been to Rome since 2015, and I went this time for the, you know, election. One of the things that was. Was really moving to me. And I don't remember this in 2015 when I was there, but maybe I wasn't there at night. I was walking out after, you know, the election happened on that Thursday night, and it was into Friday morning. I was leaving at one o' clock in the morning to go back to my place, and I saw all these people sleeping around the Vatican. And I thought, huh, this is really bad. But then the other part of it, I was like, you know, maybe it's okay that they are closer to God here than someplace else, and that they can sleep in these niches. And I'm not. I don't want people to misunderstand this. I'm not saying that we, you know, we shouldn't house the homeless. I want the homeless to be housed. But I felt like that was a place where they could be and that I saw Jesus there in a different way than I would have sitting in a Mass.

[Father Jim Martin]

I always remark about that for people who don't know, they've probably seen the pictures of. Even if you've not been there, St. Peter's there's the colonnades, Bernini's Colonnades. And that's where a lot of the homeless are. And one of the things we should say is that the Vatican has homeless shelters and there's places for refugees. And Pope Francis would bring them in for meals and things. But it was striking to pass them by every morning on the way to the Synod. Right. And see them every morning. And that was a visual reminder of really who we're supposed to be looking out for.

[Anthea Butler]

Yeah. Yeah. And it's also that, for me, the stories of Catholicism. I have a friend who would say this to me, and she's going to listen to this podcast, and she'll know I'm talking about her liberation theology is dead. And in some ways, I might agree, but in other ways, I don't, because I just think about we have to continue to have a preferential option for the poor. And that's the problem right now. We don't have a preferential option for the poor. We don't care about the poor. We don't care about the migrants. We don't care about the immigrants. We have gone into this. You know, I think one of the worst things about evangelicals and Pentecostals right now has been the embrace of the prosperity gospel.

[Father Jim Martin]

Yes.

[Anthea Butler]

And that's not to say that people shouldn't have money. It's just to say that the prosperity gospel has killed our empathy for people who don't have. And I always want to think about that and think that I have been blessed because I have something. But therefore the grace of God go, I. I could be that person sleeping in the colonnades or, you know, out wandering in the wilderness or something and not having something. And I think, to me, that's the part of Catholic teaching that I want to see so much more emphasized. And why I think about justice all of the time is because we need to have that preferential option for the poor. We need to think about people who are abused. We need to think about people who are downtrodden. It's why. And I will bring this up. You know, when I came back to the Catholic Church, one of the biggest things that I wrote about a lot, which has gotten me into trouble with people, is about sexual abuse, because I knew people who had been sexually abused in the Catholic Church. And I choose to stay. Not because I condone that, but I choose to stay because I want to fight that, and I want to fight for people who have been abused and downtrodden. And that, to me, is where my spirituality is.

[Father Jim Martin]

Well, I think you're right, and I think I want to bring you back to the prosperity gospel because I have never understood how that can be accepted. Because, I mean, you know, essentially it means that if you believe in God and you live a good life, you're gonna be rewarded. And of course, it encourages, as you were saying, people to say, well, if these people aren't rewarded, then somehow they're bad. They're not believing. But I'm always amazed and I'm curious what you would say about this. People who believe in that must look at people and must see people in their families who are holy and devout and prayerful and charitable, who get cancer or who lose their jobs. And I've never understood that. The kind of intellectual leap you have to make.

[Anthea Butler]

I'm gonna give it to you.

[Father Jim Martin]

Yeah, sure.

[Anthea Butler]

Here's the intellectual leap. You didn't have enough faith.

[Father Jim Martin]

Enough faith?

[Anthea Butler]

Yeah. Your faith was not strong enough to combat cancer. Your faith was not strong enough to combat foreclosure. You should have believed God, that God was gonna give you this money and you should have given to this evangelist or this televangelist and that you'll get that money. That's how this works. It's a never ending cycle. Because what happens to you in prosperity is that you're always having to give more, but you're getting less and you're not giving in the right place. First of all, it's basically like I would call. And you know this because you went to Wharton. This is like a stockbroker program for God. You pay in and you hope that your stock is gonna go up. Right. But unfortunately, what we've had in this country is that illness is almost looked at that. And we can think about this right now with everything being stripped from healthcare that we barely have in this country. And now what you have is that people are saying, well, you know, you don't need these shots, you don't need all this stuff, you know, because what they're talking about is basically two things. One is prosperity gospel and then the survival for the fittest. And so if you're not part of this particular structure, then, you know, if you get sick and you die, that's on you.

[Father Jim Martin]

Well, it's very transactional too. And you know, I always look at, I think it's John 9. I'm not very good on the Bible citations, but you know, where Jesus meets the man born blind, right? And they ask, you know, who sinned that this man was born blind? No one sinned. No one sin. And there are so many verses, even for people who are fundamentalists to see in the gospel, that that just doesn't work. Would you say that the impetus for the prosperity gospel is not wanting to, you know, face people who are poor? Do you think the impetus is. I just want to do well myself because it really. And I don't want to denigrate people but it really takes a lot to kind of look in the gospels and come out with the prosperity gospel. So what is the impetus? Where does that all come from?

[Anthea Butler]

Well, there's a whole class I teach on this, but let me give you the short version. They don't wanna suffer. And suffering is hard, as you know. Right. And I think that the impetus comes from. It really starts in the 19th century. But if we think about the Protestant ethic and the spirit of capitalism by Weber. Right. I have a class called God of Money. You would have taken it.

[Father Jim Martin]

I would have loved to have taken that. And I, I read that book at Wharton.

[Anthea Butler]

Yeah, you did. And somebody taught it. And I think it's really important to think about because there's ethical involvement and people think that they work hard, they will get rich or they'll get what they put in, you get out. Right. So transactional, as you say. Right. And I think part of it for people now is about we have such a, let's put it like this. In the last 20, 30, 40 years, what has happened in this country is that we have a lot of religious people who have a lot of money. And you can see that. Right. And you can see it in the ways in which they dress. And we have people like this in the Catholic Church too. But I'm thinking mostly about televangelists, evangelicals, Pentecostals, and you see this out in public and you can be this person. And so now that we have an administration that has all these people and you see the money and you see the power and you see who has the power and authority, then it's not too far fetched for people to believe who come here and hoping for a better life that they can attain these things to. Right. It's aspirational and aspiration and religion put together is very interesting because it can create some big mess.

[Father Jim Martin]

Yeah, it's very seductive too.

[Anthea Butler]

Yes, yes, very much so.

[Father Jim Martin]

I mean, the idea that, you know, all I got to do is believe in certain things and ascend to them. We have questions from our audience. So here's the question from Mary. How can one align their faith and practice as Jesus so clearly did in the Gospels? What would you say to that?

[Anthea Butler]

What is it that aligns with your faith? What do you care about in the Gospels? Is the story about the syrophoenician woman or there's a story about, you know, immigration? Is the story about, you know, friendship? All of these stories that are in the Gospel, I think, point to things that you can align yourself with faith and justice, you know, are you worried about people not having food? How are you gonna feed all these people? Do you go work at the food bank? Do you care about justice? Do you care about the centurion who's there next to Jesus? I care about police justice. Right. So I care about people who have been unjustly accused. That story resonates with me so much about Jesus, because here's somebody who had to face a court, was tried unjustly, sentenced to death. Do you care about the death penalty? There are ways in which you can read the Gospels through another lens altogether. If you look at the life of Jesus, Jesus is telling you he's doing has something to do with everyday life. And if you read it just like it's just a spiritual thing, you've missed the point.

[Father Jim Martin]

That is a great answer. Thank you. And Anthea Butler, thank you for coming in. Thank you for joining us. And really thank you for sharing your spiritual life with us today.

[Anthea Butler]

You're welcome.

[Father Jim Martin]

Well, I could have listened to her all day.

[Maggie Van Dorn]

I know I could have listened to you both speak all day. She was such an interesting guest to have on the show. Most notably, she had this term, Catholicism of intellect, you know, of the kind, kind of questioning, reading, critical thinking that animates her faith. Not to say we haven't had intellectual Catholics on the show before, but did you find that a surprise or interesting? Jim?

[Father Jim Martin]

I was delighted she brought it up because I've often thought, you know, many people have had the same experience that I had, which is, you know, I went to high school and college, and I think I was fairly well educated, but I didn't know much about the Catholic history or the church history or Catholic social teaching or the Gospels. And I think if you don't go to a Catholic school or you don't sort of specifically avail yourself of that, it's hard to get.

[Maggie Van Dorn]

Oh, yeah, totally.

[Father Jim Martin]

Yeah. The average intelligent Catholic may not get that. You're not supposed to be getting it from the Gospels. You're not supposed to be strictly catechetical. And so we're going to learn that stuff. And so I think she's right. And I think when a lot of Catholics are faced with that or they encounter it, right. A more gentle word, they say, where did this come from? And are people making it up? And why didn't I hear about this before? And sometimes they're challenged, as I was saying, sometimes they're annoyed. Right. What are you talking about? Catholic social teaching. So I think she's absolutely right, and I think she's done a very good job in her own life and her own scholarly work of trying to make that accessible for people. So I feel the church hasn't figured out how to educate Catholics outside of Catholic schools and Catholic colleges. So. Yeah, I was glad you brought that up.

[Maggie Van Dorn]

I know when I started taking religious studies classes at Santa Clara, I was actually delighted to hear that there was this Catholic wisdom tradition. When was the first time that you encountered it, and were you delighted or annoyed?

[Father Jim Martin]

It wasn't until after I entered the Jesuits. I mean, I didn't know any of this stuff. I mean, I knew the Gospels and I'd watched Jesus of Nazareth on tv and I went to Mass pretty much every Sunday. But, you know, I mean, learning about the mystics and the church fathers and, you know, gosh, now 2,000 years of church history. It wasn't until I entered the Jesuits, and it's still really. I don't think it was really until my philosophy studies or theology studies that I was, you know, sort of introduced to it. So I think she's right. I think that that hinders the church in its movement because, you know, many people, again, not out of, you know, ignorance or a sort of rejection of it, just because they've not been presented with it. They don't know this tradition. And that's one of the things we do at America. You know, we try to open people up to this. I also thought. I was so interested in her spiritual journey that moved from Catholic to evangelical to Catholic. I don't know anyone that has gone through that. I mean, what struck you about her kind of journey?

[Maggie Van Dorn]

Well, what struck me most is the role that other people played throughout her journey. You know, she talked about some key people at Fuller Theological Seminary. She also talked about. About Jim Pratt. Maybe you can share with us briefly who Jim Pratt is. I'm not familiar with him.

[Father Jim Martin]

Yeah, sure. Jim Pratt was a friend. He was a Jesuit from what used to be called the New England Province of the Society of Jesus. Now we're all the east coast province, and was at Vanderbilt, as she said, which is where Anthea encountered him. And then died very young of cancer, as I recall. But a really nice guy. And I was thinking when she was. Was talking about Jim, that's the perfect Jesuit for her to encounter. Very open, very funny. You know, very much an academic, too. So. Yeah, no, it's nice to be reminded of him.

[Maggie Van Dorn]

Yeah. I think this idea of other people being conduits of God's grace is pretty Catholic. Even if you don't learn the bread and butter catechism as thoroughly as you could have, that the church has this understanding of real community and that we are to one another or have the opportunity to be the body of Christ.

[Father Jim Martin]

Yeah. And that story about the two of them, you know, kind of locking eyes, I thought that was fascinating.

[Maggie Van Dorn]

Yeah, that was kind of mystical.

[Father Jim Martin]

Yeah, yeah. And just so unique. I love that kind of detail in people's lives, people's spiritual lives.

[Anthea Butler]

Yeah.

[Father Jim Martin]

Yeah. She's great. The Spiritual Life with Father James Martin is a production of American Media. It's produced by Maggie Van Dorn and our executive producer, Sebastian Gomes. We recorded in the William J. Loshert studio in New York City with the production assistance of Grace Lenihan and Kevin Christopher Robles. Our audio engineer is Noah Levinson. Adam Buckmuller edited the video of this episode, which will be made available on America Media's YouTube channel. The theme score is courtesy of Teddy Abrams and Nate Farrington and you can follow me across social media. Amesmartinsj. Also, please help us grow the show by leaving a five star review on your favorite podcast platform. If you love the spiritual life, then we have even more to offer you on America magazine's website. Keep informed, even inspired, about our Catholic faith. Become a subscriber [e-mail] subscribe or click the link in the show notes. Thanks so much and God bless you.

[Anthea Butler]

Sam.