← The Spiritual Life with Fr. James Martin, S.J.
The Spiritual Life with Fr. James Martin, S.J.
Cardinal Nemet’s practical advice for recovering from burnout
00:51:48
Loading summary
Transcript83 lines
- [00:00]
A
At the recent jubilee of Young People in Rome, Pope Leo called on participants to spread your enthusiasm and the witness of your faith. At Boston College Clowes School of Theology and Ministry. You are invited to answer that call through graduate theological studies. 100% of master's students receive scholarships. Learn more at bc.educstm. what kind of advice would you give to listeners who may experience burnout in their lives?
- [00:26]
B
Do not refuse the help of others. This is very important. Try to look in your neighborhood for people who really love you and take care of you. It does not mean love as emotions, but love who someone really look at you and means that you are important and we will help you to get out of this dark stage of your life.
- [00:55]
A
Welcome to the spiritual life. I'm Fr. Jim Martin. On this podcast, we reflect on how people experience God in their prayer and in their daily lives. And I am joined by my amazing producer, Maggie Van Dorn. Maggie, good to be with you as always.
- [01:10]
C
It's great to be back with you, Jim.
- [01:12]
A
Yeah. And I'm really excited about this episode. This time we're speaking with Cardinal Ladislav Nemet and maybe you could tell us a little bit about Cardinal Nemet.
- [01:22]
C
Sure. So Cardinal Ladislav Nemet is the Archbishop of Belgrade, Serbia, and he is a member of the Society of the Divine Word. Cardinal Nemet was created a cardinal by Pope Francis in 2023 and also served as a delegate for the Synod of bishops from 2021 to 2024. He is a theologian by training and Cardinal Nemet has spent decades in pastoral ministry, ecumenical dialogue, and church leadership across Central and Eastern Europe. His Eminence is known for his commitment to reconciliation, to interfaith cooperation, and the Church's mission in culturally and religiously diverse contexts. Jim, why did you want to have Cardinal Nemet on the show?
- [02:07]
A
I know that's probably the question people are asking why the Archbishop of Belgrade And I got to know him during the Synod of Bishops. We can talk about that in a little bit. And was at his table, I think, twice. And he is one of the most joyful, funny, light hearted people I met during the synod. And I thought I really want listeners to come to know him. I was also there for the day when he was named cardinal and it was very exciting just to see him, how emotional he was the next day. But it's a guy who, you know, as a cardinal and as an archbishop, has maintained his sense of humor. I mean, you know, he's obviously a serious theologian and he really knows his stuff and he's A hard worker, but was consistently making people around the table laugh. And I thought that this is a person that I really want to introduce more widely to listeners here on our show.
- [02:59]
C
Yeah. Because joy and laughter are hallmark signs of a flourishing spiritual life.
- [03:04]
A
Absolutely. And we talk about that in our conversation. I think people tend to downplay the importance of joy, humor and laughter. And we talk about Jesus being a joyful person and a humorous person because he was fully human and so on. I think really, among all the church leaders that I have met, the Archbishop of Belgrade, Cardinal Nemet, embodies that.
- [03:26]
C
Now, you mentioned the Synod of Bishops, Jim. Can you just say a word about what the Synod of Bishops consists of?
- [03:33]
A
Sure. So the Synod of bishops between 2021 and 2024 was a worldwide gathering of Catholics that started on the parish level, the diocesan level, the episcopal conference level, asking about ways that the church can, you know, improve its decision making capacity and look at issues that are important for people in the pews. And it culminated in two sessions, both in Rome, that I was a member of, one in October 2023 and one in October 2024. And then we produced a final document. The idea of the Synod of Bishops is how to make the church more synodal, which is a really, a terrible word, but it really means how to make it more listening, more welcoming, and more participatory. And so some people might wonder, well, why were you there? I'm not a bishop. And so it was the first time that the Synod of Bishops included what they were called. We were called non bishops, so laymen and lay women priests and members of religious order. So we were all mixed up there. And, you know, for example, at a table, like at my table with Cardinal Nemet, there might be an archbishop, a woman theologian, and other priests. And it was a. It was a really not only an historic gathering, but a real moving one for those of us who were there. And. And I really, as I said before, I look back, and. And I think of Cardinal Nemet as one of the standouts of people that I got to know there, who I would have never met, you know, otherwise.
- [05:02]
C
Yeah. So a standout bishop at a Synod of Bishops that was not exclusively for bishops.
- [05:07]
A
Very exactly. A little complicated, but that's right, Maggie.
- [05:12]
C
Now, there's one other detail about Cardinal Nemet's life, and that is that he belongs to the Society of the Divine Word, or maybe as did he belong. Once you become a bishop and a cardinal, do you still belong to that society?
- [05:25]
A
Yeah. So Pope Francis always considered himself still a Jesuit, Right. Yeah.
- [05:30]
C
And so what is that? Society of the Divine Word.
- [05:34]
A
Yeah, the Society of the Divine Word, or the svds, as they're sometimes called, or Divine Word Missionaries, is a Catholic missionary order of priests and brothers founded in 1875. And they spread the gospel especially to parts of the world where there aren't many Christians. And so Cardinal Nemet joined the SVD's as a young man and then worked in the SVD's. He became provincial of their Hungarian province. We hear a little bit about his background. And then when he became bishop, you know, he shifted his responsibilities. But he talks about how that spirituality, which is really based on the Bible, which is not something that Catholics, you know, think about all the time. Right. Sort of biblical theology. And it's a very large order, and he talks about its spirituality. So the SVD's, I think a lot of people would know them in the United States.
- [06:27]
C
Now, Jim, one of the really interesting parts of this conversation, I thought, was the discussion of burnout, that you knew that Cardinal Nemet had gone through a period of burnout. How did you know that? And how did you know that this was a thread to pull on?
- [06:45]
A
Well, it really wasn't from our personal conversations then. I wouldn't have brought it up if he hadn't talked about it publicly. I found this when I was doing some research on him for our conversation. And I'm really happy he's able to talk about it in our conversation. You know, it reminds us that burnout can happen to everybody. Right. Whether you're Cardinal Archbishop of Belgrade or anybody. Right. Or a Jesuit priest or an attorney or a mother or a father or a teacher. Right.
- [07:11]
C
Yeah. No matter your vocation.
- [07:13]
A
That's right. And your state of life or your stage in life. And I'm really grateful that he talked about getting the help that you need. Right. Getting the psychological help you need in addition to the spiritual help you need and the physical help you need. So that's, I think, maybe the part of the conversation that our listeners will really key into. And it's great to hear someone speak about it so honestly. You know, there's nothing to be ashamed of at all. But it's also good for him to, you know, give people advice, which he did. So I was really glad that he was honest with us and transparent in our conversation.
- [07:46]
C
Now, Cardinal Nemet also answers an audience question from Lisa, and you have to stick around to hear that. But the question is, people in my life feel that the Catholic Church dwells too much on death and the afterlife. Is the church obsessed with death more than everyday life? So stick around and Cardinal Nemet will answer that question, I think quite beautifully. And if you would like to ask Father Jim a question, you can write to us at the spiritual lifemericamedia.org and.
- [08:20]
A
Now onto our conversation with his Eminence Cardinal Ladislav Emmett. Well, your eminence, welcome to the spiritual life.
- [08:34]
B
Thank you very much.
- [08:35]
A
I am so happy to have you on. As I think I told you, you were one of my all time favorite people at the Synod of Bishops.
- [08:43]
B
It's nice to hear. I was very much impressed of your presence and our conversations. Thank you.
- [08:49]
A
Well, you know, one of the things I really appreciated, and I've told you this as well, is your sense of humor and your sense of joy at the table at the synod. And just one on one, I just wanted to talk about something a little different to begin with. What place do you think that humor has in the spiritual life? Because I'm sure people have remarked on that to you. Your sense of humor, where does that fit in the spiritual life?
- [09:13]
B
Oh, this difficult question, I must admit. You know, in younger age, still studying theology in Poland as a candidate for the Divine Word missionaries, once I got interested in finding out whether Jesus ever laughed. And I was trying to find out and really nothing about in whole four gospels, at least I could not find anything. And after, in the Old Testament there is once or twice about God the Father, because it is God the Creator. Let's say in this way that he was laughing, laughing at his enemies and laughing at the people who thought that they can just play with him around. So I think that laughing people are bringing more joy to the whole revelation and whole church business. So we should laugh a bit more. Although on the other side, when I follow official church, how would I say, programs, laughter is not very often present.
- [10:23]
A
I think that's true. And you know, when we look at Jesus, of course, I wrote a book on humor and laughter a couple of years ago and I remember a theologian saying, if we think that he's fully human, being fully human means having a sense of humor.
- [10:36]
B
I can imagine, let's say the wedding in Cana. I cannot imagine that he was just sitting there and wiping or I don't know what doing at the table because I'm sure that they liked at that time even to make jokes at weddings, as we do many times. And we will just laugh at beautiful moments, anecdotes and stories and everything. What happens?
- [11:05]
A
Well, and also they say that a lot of the parables back then would have been seen as funny. But we probably miss the humor because we're not living in first century Palestine or first century Judea. Do you think that humor is kind of downplayed or ignored or maybe even rejected in Catholic circles? Do you find?
- [11:26]
B
Maybe not rejected, but downplayed, surely. And many times we are expected to have, how would I say, a very, very composed face in the way. And just keep our emotions. It is the second thing. And humor is much more with emotion. Conn can be something brilliant that you can laugh at, but still you are supposed to be always a very serious man, in my case, or a person. And this is somehow required even in the liturgy. If you follow the Masses and in the Mass, there is not really a single place where you can laugh, but only in a good homily. In a good homily, I can imagine that you can laugh and you can bring people to laugh with you. And I sometimes practice it. It is not always well taken, but it depends. I know my community and I know in which circles and which kind of people I can speak in this way.
- [12:38]
A
Now that's interesting. Do you ever. You ever get criticized for laughing too much or having a sense of humor?
- [12:45]
B
Yes, yes, sometimes I get some critical remarks, even from theologians, let's say, in this way. Just last year I was already cardinal, and one of my good friends who can really make such remarks, told me, you know, as a cardinal, you should just calm down a bit. It is maybe too much that you laugh and you make jokes and it would be maybe proper, more proper to be somehow.
- [13:18]
A
Serious. And so what did you say to him?
- [13:20]
B
I told him it could be true, but somehow in September, coming September, I am 70. With 70, you will not start re educating a person, because many times I see that it is spontaneous, because I feel it somehow that maybe the tension, the seriousness of a topic needs to be downloaded a bit or just taken a bit lower level. And humor, according to me, can help just solving many times such tensions.
- [13:59]
A
Well, I know it was a big help at the synod, at our tables, you always brought a smile to people. So, your Eminence, I want to look a little bit about at your life. You were born in Serbia, but to Hungarian parents. And I'm wondering, how did that influence your Catholic upbringing?
- [14:20]
B
It's a very good question. You know, just last year I had a talk with friends who never experienced this double sided cultural appearance. Let's say, on one side, being a Catholic, born in a majoritarian Orthodox country during communist times. So I was born in 1956. And at that time it was a strong communist regime in former Yugoslavia. The part where I was born is Serbia today. So that I did not change, let's say, in this way, my Republic. We were not really allowed fully to practice freely our religion. And because of it, our religious life was much more limited to family events. We had some prayers at home. My mother went every Sunday with us to church. My father was twice a year, he was a member of the Communist Party, because that was the assurance to have a sure job. So it was somehow this situation for Christmas and Easter, he came with us. And in this way there was always a certain feeling of being cautious in our decisions, our words, our behavior in the school, not to fall, let's say, somehow under certain critical level of being followed or just taken seriously because we are too religious. So it was in my early life, very present, that we are Catholics, but we are Catholics at home. So Catholics at home and in the church. No social involvement and no visible, let's say, presence in the brighter society. Still, it gave me and my family, we were five siblings. It gave us the real foundation to experience our faith and to start practicing. And after, when we left the family house, elderly house, we were able to stand on our own feet and do something. And this is something that I brought with myself when I left for Poland for Nowitzhit theology. All my education and formation I did in Poland between 77 and 83. And it was a beautiful time. 78, Pope John Paul II was elected. And Poland just exploded in joy, happiness, and having a Pope, it was really historical and he felt it. So this initial feeling of being a limited Catholic to family and church just exploded and opened up for the whole social life, whole public life. And it was for me, a beautiful experience.
- [17:40]
A
That's beautiful. So the sense was, if I understand you, that this sort of enabled you to be more publicly Catholic, right. In your. In your public life, how did that influence your relationship with God, would you say?
- [17:54]
B
Sure, sure. Normally, every year when I celebrate my birthday, I spend some time in private, in the chapel, just going through what happened to me during my life, year after year. It doesn't take so much time, but it is beautiful to see what was I like 50 years ago or 30 years ago? 20 years ago. And many times one point of reflection is, how did I pray? And which prayer was my favorite prayer at that time, during my adolescence, mostly it was there were prayers which can be just repeated, let's say, like certain written prayers, the rosary that you are just praying the way of the Cross from Books. But slowly it changed. I was able to pray more and to speak more openly about my religion. And it surely had some, how would I say, connection with this changing context of my life, my inner life, let's say the closeness to God remained as it was. But starting speaking up on that experience and somehow giving it to other people gave me a broader experience and brought me more joy.
- [19:26]
A
That's beautiful. Maybe that's one reason for your joy. You know you're joyful.
- [19:30]
B
No, I think that if I may tell you, my father was something like this. My mother was much more serious. And how serious she was, I remember. If I may just tell you a small piece of my life. 2008, Pope Benedict asked me to be bishop in Serbia and to go back to Serbia. I was at that time working in Hungary. And you know, there is a battle secret. You don't tell anyone that you have been chosen or you were chosen. So the last night before making it official in Vatican and in Serbia, I called my mom around 10 o' clock evening and I told her, mom, tomorrow they will announce that I will be bishop in Serbia. And her first reaction was, my son, we don't make jokes with holy things. And I told her, mom, but it is true. And she said, no, you do not have a character for a bishop. So I said, okay, if you don't believe, but anyway, they will tell us, they will announce it tomorrow. So at the end of around five minutes, she just stopped grasping that it is serious. She was very much impressed. And the first year, she told me later, the first year, she every day added one rosary more for me, just to be normal and to keep my, how would I say, episcopal vocation in the right track.
- [21:03]
A
That's great.
- [21:03]
B
So that's it.
- [21:04]
A
Well, it's good that she was praying for you. Now, Cardinal Nemet, you started to say, before you were a bishop and then a cardinal, you joined the Society of the Divine Word and served as provincial for a time of the Hungarian province. Can you describe the spirituality of that order and how it influenced you?
- [21:23]
B
Yes. The Divine World Missionaries Society of the Divine World is a religious society founded by a German priest, diocesan priest in 1875. Last year we celebrated 150 years. The main characteristics of the SVD spirituality is the Bible spirituality. Our founder put a very strong stress on biblical spirituality because his idea was that the whole mission of the Church and later of the society as part of the Church comes from divine revelation. And the divine revelation is to be found in the Bible in the best way and in the Gospels. Which are narrating the story of Jesus our Savior. So the spirituality on the one side was based on biblical texts, on the other side, on the main truths of our Catholic faith. And even today I enjoy reading the Bible, although what I said that every year has some different accents. And I remember that till early 40s I was not so much impressed by psalms. They were somehow part of the prayer of the church and I had to pray bravery and everything else. But only in 40s I understood how deeply it touches me too. Maybe I needed some years and experiences in my personal life to recognize myself in these words.
- [23:18]
A
What is it about the Psalms that moves you?
- [23:22]
B
The psalms there is with 40, I will say 43, 45, 46. It's a middle age for a man, let's say, in this way, and middle age crisis. And there are prayers, let's say, like at that time I was really somehow suffering of different decisions that I had to take at that time. And between staying in the place where I used to work or take up some other assignment. It was the time when we were closing our theological school in Austria and I was there a professor teaching dogmatics, theology. And the idea was where to go now. And so many questions were in my head. And after, during night, even I could not always sleep well. The psalms came. Psalms came that in the night. I think about you in the night. I'm looking for your guidance and your light, but even the other one quarreling with God. But thanks be to God, now I can look back and I can just sing the psalms of joy.
- [24:39]
A
Well, that's beautiful. I'm curious because you've spoken publicly before about suffering from burnout. Was this the time when you were experiencing that burnout?
- [24:49]
B
No, it was later. It was later as a bishop, already 12 years, I was already serving in my diocese and I was in the middle of the first synod of my diocese and somehow it did not go well, let's say, the whole synod thing. I was. I admit, I admit I worked too much and I did not take care of my health. And not everything was going the way as I thought that it should go. And I neglected my own, I would say, spiritual life, but on the other side, it was a physical illness too. It was not only spiritual difficulty or psychological, but I felt it totally in my whole body. So it was the 19th of September that I asked for some leave. And that was beautiful. Naturally, I must thank God that I had wonderful people around me who helped me, and professional staff, but even more friends who kept, till last moment next to Me, although I was not too friendly at that time, I was always complaining and just. Really, I can imagine that I was terrible.
- [26:13]
A
I'm really curious about this time in your life, your Eminence. What kind of advice would you give to listeners who may experience burnout in their lives?
- [26:24]
B
First of all, it is a terrible feeling of being alone and having, how they say, full of insecurity, incapable of asking for help. Really, that's a very interesting thing. And even my personal relationship to God was questioned very much so. It is important to have someone around you who will look at you with how they say, lovely eyes and try to do something for you, even if you're against. Because I remember I was refusing everything at the end. My brother and Clara, you know, Clara from the synod, they decided behind my back, they decided to bring me to my brother's house. So I spent time in my brother's house and for months. And they found in their place, they live in a big town and they have a daughter. And the daughter studied psychology. So they found a good, how would I say, psychiatrist who talked to me every week, three times, five to ten minutes, nothing more. Five to ten minutes he talked to me and he told me what to do. And after three weeks I started just getting back to life. Naturally, he gave me some medicine and it helped me to come back. But I would suggest the people who have really problem do not refuse the help of others. This is very important. And try to look in your neighborhood for people who really love you and take care of you. It does not mean love as emotions, but love who someone really look at you and means that you are important. And we will help you to get out of this dark stage of your life.
- [28:39]
A
And thank you for being so honest. How did your relationship with God change over that time?
- [28:45]
B
At the beginning of this experience, it was really a dark night, as many say. I could not really pray. I was just repeating words, asking God to help me and to let pass this time and somehow to get out of it. I did celebrate mass regularly, but no joy came out of it. So it is no satisfactions, no strength. And I really needed much more time to try to get back to this normal religious life. And it came just at the end. So for many weeks, I would say six, seven weeks, I was really, how would I say, just a foreign person in the house of my father, just coming in, getting out, but no personal, nothing, joyful, nothing strength. And it came back as my complex health or illness started disappearing and health coming back.
- [30:00]
A
So now do you feel like your Relationship with God is different.
- [30:04]
B
I will say that after this burnout experience, my spirituality is somehow more concentrated on private prayer. I pray the prayers of the church and I celebrate the Mass. But I like much more now as before, to spend time just even wordless, in silence. And something what I strengthened in my life. This is the, how would I say, the closeness to the created world, because I liked very much the world as it is, the beauty of the world and creation. And now I even more consciously enjoy the created world and the beauty of the world. So not only people, but even every small flower or beautiful night with sky full of stars. And I really am a blessed by the Lord, being now as a cardinal and earlier as a bishop and missionary, I really visited many parts of the world. And I must admit that I experience extremely much beauty in the world and extremely many people who are good.
- [31:34]
A
We're going to pause for a short break, but we will be right back.
- [31:39]
B
If you're thinking about what's next in your life and you have questions that you want to explore, and you want to explore that with some other people, the Boston College Companions program will help you. It will provide a context for you to explore some of those questions in an incredible environment to ask the biggest questions of life and the most personal questions.
- [32:14]
A
I want to help our listeners understand your life a little bit more. You received your doctorate in dogmatic Theology from the Gregorian University in Rome. And then skipping over some time, you became bishop in 2008, and then you've been archbishop of Belgrade since 2022. I'm really curious about how becoming a bishop and then archbishop has changed your way of praying or your way of being in the world, or your spirituality. Did you find that you changed interiorly when you became a bishop and assumed all those responsibilities?
- [32:52]
B
Sure, sure, there are changes. Let's say already as a provincial in Hungary, I was somehow in charge of people my conference. And one thing which is very important, not to take my services superior as provincial, only as an administrative task. So we pray together conference. And I have to somehow look at my conference a certain kind of responsibility. Being a bishop, it is most probably even more responsibility, because as a religious, I was responsible only for our conference. But as a bishop is the whole diocese. You know, when you visit a parish as a bishop, so many people will come and you will meet them, and many of them will tell you their lives. And many times it is a joyful experience. But many times there are pain, sorrow, tragedies where you do not have. At least myself, I could not find A proper word, but to say, I will pray for you. So it is such a, let's say, simple answer, but it is a powerful answer because it puts the whole story into the hand of God. So it changed my how the spiritual life that I had to take much more people into my prayer as earlier that I have to pray for them. But on the other side, I was extremely touched by the fact that everywhere I went in the diocese, in every Mass, my name was read. So it is incredible power that gives you and the whole diocese every day, in every Holy Mass, and not only because they have other prayers as well, they will mention my name and they will stand with me in this place and in my duties. And it is a beautiful thing to be in a family which is praying for you.
- [35:06]
A
That's a great insight. You know, I celebrate Mass every day and I say the name of the bishop, who is Cardinal Dolan, Timothy. And I mean, I always pray for him, of course, and pray for the Pope. But I never thought how consoling it must be for a bishop to know that, to know that everyone in every Mass is praying for you.
- [35:24]
B
Yes, this is something special. Many times I laugh at myself, how great a sinner you are that you need so much prayer to keep your faith and to keep your road. But on the other side, I can imagine that it gives us strength to fulfill this bishoply vocation of being a pontifex, to keep people together in unity, to try to bring them together to make easier their life and to open the ways, their eyes and hearts to find God. Because this is, I think, my. I cannot bring anyone to God, but I can give just tips and help people to do it on their own way.
- [36:12]
A
Yeah. And for those, most of our listeners, of course, are not bishops or cardinals. Is there a lesson for all of us, you know, in terms of praying for one another, do you think? I sometimes hear from people, well, why should I pray for somebody God already knows what their problems are? Right. Well, how do you answer that question?
- [36:34]
B
I will say prayer always helps one thing. And the second thing, God is not, how would I say, deciding about our future. He decides about our past, our past, everything. What we have lived and experience, made it is in the hand of God. But the present moment and my decisions with the help of God can be taken in the right way. And the future is mostly in my hands in personal relationship to people, my life in the church, I have to decide about many things and to decide properly. I believe that the help of grace, as we say, and grace is nothing Else as God actualized in my life in an invisible way, but still next to me and in my life. We know that we are baptized so that it is not just that we were poured upon water, but God, Jesus Christ is in our hearts and we are in his human heart somehow and his divine body. So I think that it is very important not to lose this faith in the strength of prayer and the other side. It is connecting us in an invisible family of God's people. We are all members of this beautiful community.
- [38:07]
A
Let me bring you up a little more. Recently I was very happy to be in Rome at the synod on the day that you were named a cardinal. I mean, there are so few people who experienced that. What was that like to. Was that a surprise? How did you find out about it? I know I found out about it by listening to the Pope speak your name, you know, I guess it was during the Angelus. What was it like and how did you find out?
- [38:32]
B
So it was a special, how would I say, experience in my life. As you say, it is not too often that it happens. I was at that Sunday morning, I just took a walk in the city and went back to the house where I stayed. And it was around 12 o'. Clock. I did not want to go to Peter Square because to tell you the truth, I know what happens. I thought so I know what he will say and we are going on. And I was already at 12:30 was supposed to start the lunch. And around 12:15 I got an SMS from a friend of mine, oh, congratulations, you will have much more job now. And I wrote him back what kind of congratulation. And he wrote back, you are a cardinal. I don't. Don't joke. So at that moment came a first call on the phone recong. And at that moment I went to the website of the Vatican news live transmission and he was reading names, it was already passed my name at the end. So I went back and really I heard my name and I. I must admit I just starting started somehow crying and tears were coming to my eyes because it was such an unexpected thing for me. As I say already as a religious, it was for me something very big to become bishop and after archbishop and now as a cardinal. That was somehow incredible. I thought myself what did Francis see in me to give me this honor? Because it is something that you can really not earn or just say, I am ready for it. No one is ready. I will say, I know that couple of days I needed really to tell myself is it true or really it is going to Be. And after came December 7 and the creation and the Consistory, and it was just walking in the clouds, I would say walking somehow a special time of grace and joy. And it still remains alive in me. And really, it is something that is difficult to describe with normal, let's say, words. It is something unique. But as I told you, it is a special grace.
- [41:21]
A
I was happy to celebrate it with you. The very next day at our table, before we get to our audience question, one of the most important things that cardinals do is elect a pope. And without breaking confidences, I wonder if you could share your experience of what the conclave was like that elected Pope Leo.
- [41:39]
B
The whole conclave was for me a celebration of God's presence. It was a liturgy for me. It was not, let's say, a legal act of choosing the head of a state of the Vatican, but it was time of prayer, time of deep silence, because we were isolated from people and we were among ourselves. But later, being in the chapel, in the 16th Chapel, we were very much, let's say, alone in our own thoughts. And that was a time where we could pray. And I must tell you, that was the only thing in my head was, and I'm sure in other cardinals as well. We talked about it. It was just one idea. How can we find the best person for this incredible, incredibly difficult task, let's say in this way.
- [42:41]
A
So what was it like when it felt like the Holy Spirit was taking charge? Because other cardinals told me there they had a sense, at least that. But suddenly the choice became obvious. Was that your sense?
- [42:55]
B
Yes. After the first round. The first round in the evening of the first day of the 7th of May, it was just information boat, let's say, in this way, to find out in which directions our votes are going. But on second day we arrived very fast till the final decision. And I thought, I felt that it is really the Holy Spirit. Because I said to one, I told in one of the interviews, if you have 133 men, and I mean now really men who are used to power and decisions and bring them together for one common name, it must be the Holy Spirit.
- [43:43]
A
That's true. Were you able to speak to the Holy Father afterwards at all?
- [43:47]
B
Yes, I was in a happy position that his first Supper I took at his table because he came around one hour late for the dinner, because he was still doing some other things. Outside. We were waiting as cardinals, and the central table with the place for the Pope was totally empty, you know, because no one had the courage to sit down and wait. The Pope at his own table. So when he came, he stood there alone. And I just went to him and asked him maybe come to you to not to stay alone.
- [44:22]
C
Yeah, yeah.
- [44:23]
B
Come, come, come. So I was in for the First Supper. I was at the Pope and I called some other cardinals, and we were there, and it was a beautiful experience. For two hours, we exchanged information about everything. He told us why he chose the name, and we asked him even about his favorite football team. And so normal, normal things going on. And it was a beautiful supper. I will remember it till the end of my days.
- [44:53]
A
That's great. That's great. The First Supper, not the Last Supper.
- [44:56]
B
Yeah, yeah, the First Supper. Yeah.
- [44:58]
A
So, your eminence, one question. We take a question from our audience, people who write in, and I think this is a very good question to ask you. We haven't touched much on your. Your background as a theologian, but I think this is a good theology question. And this is from a woman named Lisa. And Lisa asks. People in my life feel that the Catholic Church dwells too much on death and the afterlife. Is the church obsessed with death more than life, do you think?
- [45:30]
B
No. I always tried to teach that the life after death has a sense when we fulfill full life here on the earth because the two things are not divided. The life on the earth is the beginning of the eternal life. So I must now use a word that I used in theology. One of my main topics in teaching dogmatic was eschatology, about the solution of history individually and for the whole created world. But eschatology has a real sense only if it starts here. If we start here, experiencing eternal life, the fullness of life, the fullness of mercy of God and reconciliation among ourselves, building up a kingdom of God here on the earth. That was the main message of Jesus. And the building of the kingdom supposes, let's say that we work in our own lives, and I will suggest to look after beautiful experiences in our lives. And to Lisa, I will suggest to find beautiful flowers in her life. Flowers as a creature, creation and creatures and flowers as people around her who will make her life nicer. I think that the Catholic Church, especially during the time of Francis, spoke much more about the mercy of God as about being punished for sins. And it is much more mercy in the heavenly Father who accepts us, his children, as we are and not about this idea of being a policeman or someone as judge waiting just to punish us. I think that's very important. Pope Francis made a big, big change in the spirituality of the Catholic Church.
- [47:54]
A
Well, on behalf of Lisa, I want to say thank you for that excellent pastoral answer. On behalf of our listeners, I want to say thank you for your time and your honesty, especially talking about your burnout. And really, Cardinal Nemet, on behalf of me, I want to say thank you for being such a good friend. You always made me smile and always brought me joy and I was always so happy to see you at the synod. And so thank you for sharing that and thank you for being a joyful person.
- [48:23]
B
Father Jim, I must tell you the same. If someone is too serious, I cannot open up my, let's say, humor and this laughing side. And you gave me always the chance to do it and it was a beautiful experience in Rome and I hope that we will meet somewhere just to take a beer or a whiskey, I don't know what you prefer, and just talk about nice times.
- [48:49]
A
Well, thank you Cardinal, and God bless you and please keep us all in your prayers and we will pray for you.
- [48:54]
B
Thank you very much. God bless you and all your listeners.
- [49:04]
A
I really enjoyed that conversation with Cardinal Nemet. And you can read a reflection I wrote to accompany this episode on burnout, specifically@americamagazine.org or by clicking the link in the show notes. Also, I'd like to let you know that I have a new book out, a memoir called Work in Progress. It's the story of finding work through a variety of crazy summer jobs like busboy, dishwasher, caddy, factory worker, and many more, and eventually finding God. Basically, it's a lighthearted spiritual memoir about growing up in the 60s, 70s and 80s and is available in print, ebook and audio anywhere. Books are sold. I really hope you enjoy Work in Progress the Spiritual Life with Father James Martin is produced by Maggie Van Doren, Sebastian Gomes and myself, with production assistance from Kevin Christopher Robles and Will Gualtieri. Adam Buckmuller engineered the show. The theme score is courtesy of Teddy Abrams and Nate Farrington. You can follow me across social media amesmartinsj and you can read a reflection I wrote on this episode@americamagazine.org or by clicking the link in the show notes. Thanks so much and God bless you.