← The Spiritual Life with Fr. James Martin, S.J.
The Spiritual Life with Fr. James Martin, S.J.
How spiritual writer, Sr. Joyce Rupp, found joy and freedom in getting older
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- [00:04]
Father Jim Martin
Welcome to the Spiritual Life. I'm Father Jim Martin. On this podcast, we reflect on how people experience God in their prayer and their daily lives. And I'm joined by my producer, Maggie Van Dorn. Maggie, good to be with you.
- [00:17]
Maggie Van Dorn
Good to be with you, Jim.
- [00:19]
Father Jim Martin
How are you?
- [00:20]
Maggie Van Dorn
I am doing well and I'm so excited for this conversation we're about to get to with Sister Joyce Rupp, a longtime friend of yours. She calls us from Des Moines, Iowa. And Joyce is a pretty renowned Catholic author, spiritual director, she's a retreat leader, and she is a member of the Servite Order, which is the Servants of Mary. Joyce has written numerous books on spirituality and prayer, and the two that we are focusing on in this conversation with her are Vessels of Love, Poems and Prayers for the Later Years of Life and Praying Our Goodbyes, a spiritual companion through life's losses and sorrows. And I know that you've had a chance to read and in some cases review these books, Jim.
- [01:06]
Father Jim Martin
Yeah. And also, you know, her books are books that are often given out on retreats. I don't think I've been at any retreat where my director hasn't said, oh, look at this page from Joyce Rupp. So I feel like she's kind of accompanied me on retreats ever since I entered the Jesuits. And I love her style, I love her openness and her just whole approach to the spiritual life.
- [01:26]
Maggie Van Dorn
So would you say that you met Joyce first through her writing and then later in person?
- [01:31]
Father Jim Martin
Oh, totally, yeah. I mean, when I was a novice, I was reading Joyce Rupp, and I didn't meet her till late in life, which is one of the things we're talking about today.
- [01:39]
Maggie Van Dorn
Yeah, we are talking about spirituality of aging. And I'm wondering how, in anticipation of this conversation, how you have been reflecting on aging and spirituality in your own life.
- [01:53]
Father Jim Martin
Well, quite a bit. Recently I turned 64, which my nephews call the Beatles age. Right. You still love me when I'm 64. And I think as you know, our bodies change and, you know, diminish and even deteriorate. That means more doctor visits. Gosh. My mother is getting older at 93. She's just been diagnosed this week with dementia. So, you know, lots of questions about how you are in the world and how you can continue to be, you know, hopeful and cheerful and loving as we age. And it's something that Joyce Rupp does very well in our interview to talk about know what does it mean to age for all of us? Young people learn about life from people who are older and you know, how does your understanding of God even change? It's quite a great conversation.
- [02:42]
Maggie Van Dorn
And what I love about this conversation is one, it's not just for older adults. It really is for anyone who is alive and aging. But then also, it's not a Debbie Downer conversation. Like, it is so hope inspiring and nourishing and encouraging, which is not always the kind of conversation that we hear around this topic.
- [03:08]
Father Jim Martin
Right. Because aging is often framed as only diminishment and letting go, which is important, but there are a lot of freedoms and benefits that come with aging as well.
- [03:17]
Sister Joyce Rupp
Yeah.
- [03:18]
Maggie Van Dorn
Okay. Before we get to that exciting conversation, let's hear a question from one of our audience members. This question comes from Julie, and she asks, how do we revitalize a dry prayer life that feels like just going through the motions?
- [03:34]
Father Jim Martin
Great question. And one that I am asked constantly and also have to deal with as a prayer. Someone who prays. I think the first thing to look at is, what does it mean? And maybe some of our listeners might not know this. What does it mean to have a dry prayer life? It basically means you close your eyes or you're walking around, or you're kneeling and you don't feel like praying. Anything is happening. I mean, I think something's always happening. When you're with God in prayer, there's some deep conversion going on, but it doesn't feel like where you can't notice any fruits, and that's difficult for people. It can go on for weeks, months, sometimes years. You know, Mother Teresa famously, you know, had it go on for years, decades. So I. I think it's important to say that it's natural, happens to everybody.
- [04:15]
Maggie Van Dorn
What would the opposite of a dry prayer life look like?
- [04:19]
Father Jim Martin
Well, you could say a rich prayer life would be one where you have lots of insights and emotions and desires and feelings, and you read the Gospels and you feel connected. And, you know, you might even have words and phrases that come up. And so it's very rich and exciting and full of images. And whereas the dryness, really, you don't feel like much is happening. You're bored, and it's kind of empty. And, you know, one of the things to remember is that it's natural. Another thing to remember is it's good to look at your daily life right. Where God is present in your daily life, not just in your personal prayer. And then finally, I talk to people about mixing it up a little bit. If you're only doing the psalms, for example, which is fine, I do the psalms. Maybe try some centering Prayer. If you're only doing Ignatian contemplation, maybe try some nature prayer. So mixing it up, I think, really helps a lot. But it's a great conversation we have with Joyce. She has some great suggestions as well.
- [05:17]
Sister Joyce Rupp
Yeah.
- [05:17]
Maggie Van Dorn
And I know sometimes when people are encouraging me to, let's say, pray through journaling, like through writing my prayers, initially, I feel like that there is not much going on or not much to say, but the minute that the pen hits the page or even if I'm doing it on the notes app, on my phone, all of this material spills out. You know, just even journaling. And sometimes I think prayer can function a little bit that way. That showing up for the discipline of it and as you say, mixing it up, mixing that discipline up through different mediums, you know, be it writing or centering prayer or, you know, I like to pray when I'm walking, that that can really make a difference in opening your prayer life and spicing it up.
- [06:04]
Father Jim Martin
Yeah. One of the great things about journaling is that it forces you to notice, you know, where has God been? I met one of Mother Teresa's spiritual directors. She had many. You know, famously, she suffered from dryness. And she was talking to this spiritual director, a bishop, and she said, I just don't feel God at all. And at that moment, they were in Calcutta. A young kid came up and threw his arms around her and said, oh, Mother Teresa, I love you. And the bishop said, well, I hope you're noticing this stuff, too. Right. Meaning I hope you're encouraging her to notice also the stuff on the outside. And actually, he told me this story, and I said, well, you're telling a saint. You're giving her advice. And he said, well, we all need advice, right? So part of it's also talking with someone about. About your spiritual life as well.
- [06:52]
Maggie Van Dorn
And something that you're so good at, Jim, is. Is kind of breaking down the wall between prayer life and the rest of your life and saying that, you know, you want to engage your whole life fully in prayer and to turn to it for signs of God's presence.
- [07:09]
Father Jim Martin
It's essential. Well, thanks, Julie, for your question. It's a great question and a very common one. I also encourage you to stick around for what Joyce Rupp has to say, which is very deep, and it's really great. She has a lot of great perspectives on just that very topic.
- [07:23]
Maggie Van Dorn
And as a reminder, if you would like to ask Father Jim a question, you can always write to us at the spiritual lifemericamedia.org and now a word.
- [07:33]
Father Jim Martin
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- [08:23]
Maggie Van Dorn
All right. Now on to our conversation with Joyce Rupp.
- [08:38]
Sister Joyce Rupp
Foreign.
- [08:45]
Father Jim Martin
JOYCE rupp, welcome to the Spiritual Life.
- [08:48]
Sister Joyce Rupp
Hello, Jim, and thank you so much for having me. I'm so glad to be here today.
- [08:52]
Father Jim Martin
Well, it's my pleasure, and I'm sure I've told you this many times, but I have used your books and your insights and your wisdom on so many retreats, and I I can't count the number of spiritual directors who would say during one of our retreat sessions, here's a little page from one of Joyce Rupp's books.
- [09:11]
Sister Joyce Rupp
I'm just around to haunt you, Jim.
- [09:13]
Father Jim Martin
That's right. I especially liked Fragments of your ancient name, where you look at different ways of looking at God, which I just found so helpful. But your latest book, Vessels of Love, Poems and Prayers for the Later Years of Life, really does focus well later in life on aging. So I kind of wanted to spend a little time talking about that today. Joyce, how would you describe a spirituality of aging? What does that mean for you?
- [09:40]
Sister Joyce Rupp
Yeah, well, you know, when I think about a spirituality of aging, I think, first of all, I kind of have to define spirituality because I think it means a lot of different things to different people. And for me, it really means how the external part of my life influences the inner life and how the inner life influences the outer life. So when I think about a spirituality of aging, I actually, since Vessels of Love came out, I have another companion book on aging that's coming out this fall. And so I want to talk about the two metaphors and the two titles, because that really, to me, is the best way to explain what I think spirituality of aging is. So when I wrote Vessels of love with the prayers and poems in it. There were lots of different topics, you know, on those last years of life. And last years of life I really think of as the 80s and 90s. There's a lot been written on the 60s and 70s. So in the 80s and 90s, I envision there's a real slowing down that happens. And what happens within us is that we have always had this great love of the divine within us and, you know, pouring into us and moving out of us. But life is so hurried when we are younger and when we're active and we're pre retired and even in retirement. People can be so busy in the 60s, 70s. But when you get to be 80 and beyond, you cannot keep up that pace no matter what. Your body won't allow you to do it. And so it's a great time to step back and to begin looking at what is my inner life all about. You know, I had someone the other day, an older person, I think about 85, and he said to me, I've always been too busy to think about what's going on inside of myself. And I just believe that at this point our bodies help us to get to that inner space. We are filled with love. And so as things begin being taken from us, our successes and our active life, we can allow more space in us to be at that transparent vessel, to really have that love showing. And the other metaphor I have is ripening. I call that second book of essays the Years of Ripening because my sense is that when we're born, we are filled with these beautiful qualities, altruistic characteristics and virtues. I mean, the potential for all of that is there in us. And then, you know, we start growing, we develop our ego and suddenly we're, you know, aim for success. And what do other people think of us? What do we think of ourselves? So a lot of those virtues sit there. Some of them are developed and some are partially developed. And then we get to old age. And what happens, at least it's happened for me, is that I have a lot more time to reflect on where am I with coming home to those. Those qualities in me. So I could say a lot more about that, but I don't want to go on and on. I just think that it's a time to ripen and harvest the goodness that's in us. Some people would say it's coming home to your true self. I think it's the same kind of thing. It's just a very different metaphor for me.
- [13:05]
Father Jim Martin
Well, let me ask a Few follow up questions. That's wonderful. And I love those two images. I would imagine some listeners might be thinking, well, how do I know what's going on in my inner life and how do I know that that's God versus just my own ego? Or what do you say to people who have a hard time sort of identifying God within them or even experiencing God within them? Where would a person start?
- [13:29]
Sister Joyce Rupp
Oh, wow, that's a really good question. I think two things. One is we have to learn to trust our inner voice and discern, you know, what is coming from our ego, what's coming from ourself. The other part, it's always been so important for me, and that's to have a companion spiritual guide so I can sit down with this person and say, here's what's coming for me. How does that sound? And have some feedback on that. My last retreat this past summer, you know, I had it all figured out what was going to happen. And I had chosen a place where I thought there was a lake and there wasn't. But anyway, the last thing my director said to me was, meet God where God wants to be met. And when I got to this place I'd never been before, instead of a lake, there was an oat field in front of me. And I thought, you know, this oat field's gotta be where God wants to meet me. And I tell you, it was one of the best retreats I ever had. I learned so much about myself through watching that oatfield ripen. But it was my spiritual director, my spiritual guide that really helped me to get to that point. So I would say to people, you know, begin listening. Some people have a hard time even listening to what's within themselves. So write it down and then take it to someone you trust, someone who's been there before you and begin processing that. Does that make sense?
- [14:54]
Father Jim Martin
It does. That's a great way of saying it too, you know, trusting what's going on inside of you. But I love that idea of taking it to someone who's been there before you, which is what a spiritual director is. It's so helpful. I think, that I sometimes say I don't know how people can live without a spiritual director. I mean, I know you know, that sounds very precious, but you do need someone to kind of accompany you, you know. My second question is, and I've been dying to ask you this because I've read so many of your books, what if you're a person who just feels kind of resentment and anger and disappointment with what has happened in your life, and now you're aging and you feel like things are being taken away. You know, you talked about the center being a part of love, but do you counsel or have directees who are struggling with that as well? Kind of the resentment of age?
- [15:41]
Sister Joyce Rupp
Yeah. Yeah. I actually haven't companioned anyone who's felt that way, an older person, but I've been with older people. In fact, I was just last week with someone who is really fighting, fighting, fighting, fighting, not wanting to leave her own home and all of that, you know, anger that comes with it. I think it's really very difficult. But I think the first thing is to really listen to the person and let them just talk it all out and let them be as angry and as bitter as they want to be. And then I would ask what's happened in your past when you've been in a situation that was really tough for you or that you didn't want in your life, and how did you go about working through that? Because I think that has a lot to do with when we get older, how we have processed in the past. And so that's where I would begin. And it would. I think it would be quite a journey to take with a person who's. Who's quite bitter. Some people never get over that bitterness. You know, they just want to hang on to it. And so I think it would be just being very compassionate with that person and not trying to change them, but trying to help them to change themselves.
- [16:55]
Maggie Van Dorn
Oh, Joyce, I love that answer. Because you're actually directing the person to their own strengths or the wisdom that is available to them with their age, saying, look back on your life and take note of the places where you have overcome a great obstacle or challenge. And then they might be able to find that within themselves at this other stage. One of the expressions that a lot of young people use today to mark time or different chapters of their life as eras. You know, like, I'm in my whatever era, and so I'm wondering, Jim and Joyce, was there a moment or a story you might be able to recall for us when you thought, I'm actually in a different era, that you kind of noticed your age and it occurred to you that there was some spiritual development happening in this new chapter or era?
- [17:55]
Sister Joyce Rupp
Yeah, yeah. Two eras, I think, in my inner One was when I was in my midlife time, actually, and I stopped being able to use the prayer form I'd used for years, which was more of an Ignatian method of taking the scriptures and Meditating and visualizing and putting myself in them. And it just kept getting in my way. And my era was moving into contemplative prayer and that I really finally said yes to that, about age 60, and that's really been mine ever since. But I had a really hard time letting go of the security of the way I used to pray. And I think that for many people, that is a real turning externally, I moved into saying yes, yes. I'm an older person. I'm an old person. It was right before COVID and I thought, I have traveled so much for so many years, packing it and unpacking my suitcase. I am so sick of being in airports and missing my flights and getting to someplace I was supposed to talk, getting there late, that I don't want to do this anymore. I can't do this anymore. It's taking too much of my energy. It's taking my joy away from me. And that was a big move to say, I'm going to move into writing and spiritual guidance. And I. I'm letting go of traveling to speak before groups and all of that. And it was just a real acknowledgement that it's time for me to say, I'm not in active ministry anymore. I'm much more in a. In a reflective ministry. So. Yeah.
- [19:35]
Father Jim Martin
And you can still come on podcasts, which is nice.
- [19:38]
Maggie Van Dorn
And you don't have to travel for it.
- [19:39]
Sister Joyce Rupp
I don't have to do that in an airport, Jim.
- [19:41]
Father Jim Martin
You know, it's much better than an airport. You know, it's. It's funny, Maggie. I had a similar experience, both spiritually and I would say, you know, maybe physically. I also had expectations for myself and retreats and around those same challenges. Right. Praying in indignation way. And I realized that basically I do that best, or maybe most fruitfully on retreat. And when I come home, I just can't do it. I just cannot do it. You know, I pray for a half an hour or an hour in the morning, and there's just so much on my mind that I find it difficult. As Ignatius says, compose the place and imagine yourself there. Some people can. And I said to my spiritual director once, I said, I really feel guilty. He said, why? I said, well, because all I'm doing is resting in God's presence. And he said, that's not so bad. So I've kind of let go of that need. Exactly. That need to sort of control my prayer, you know, Maggie, I can tell you exactly when I felt old. I had a direct TE. I had a direct. So I'm 64. I had a direct TE who was a young man, and he was thinking about entering the Jesuits. So he was about 25. And I guess I was. This may have been about 10, 15 years ago. I sort of considered myself more or less a peer. You know, he's an adult, right? This is an adult man. I'm an adult. And he said, I'm going down to my father's birthday party this weekend. I said, that's nice. How old's your dad? He said, it's a big birthday. He's 50. And I was 50. And I realized for the first time in my life, I. Not only could I conceivably be this guy's father, I am his father's age. I'm older than his father. And I was telling my spiritual director, actually, Sister Maddie Taberi up at Eastern Point, this story, and I said I felt like I had to kind of go out of the room, the process. But, you know, I was with Guy. I couldn't say, this is, you know, a difficult moment for me. And, you know, so I talked about it with her, and she laughed, and she said, well, wait a year. Their grandparents age, you know, So I realized, look, I am just not this guy's age. You know, he's 25 and I'm 50, and that's that. Right. And also, you know, he and people in his age cohort and other younger Jesuits started looking to me as a older person, right? Like, oh, you know, Jim, what was it like when you entered 25 years ago? So it's kind of inevitable. But there. That was the moment I realized, oh, my gosh, I'm old. You know, but the other thing, it didn't. I don't know how you feel about this, Joyce, but I know some people struggle with it. It didn't really bother me. I just thought, well, you know, I'm. I'm. At least I'm alive and I'm still working. And. Because I think one of the things we tend to overlook, and I wanted to ask you this, we tend to sometimes focus on the challenges of aging, Right. Our diminished bodies and all that. What have you enjoyed about it? What are the delights of aging?
- [22:35]
Sister Joyce Rupp
Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to go back just a minute to what you said about. Because I think acceptance is such a big part of aging. It's really the serenity prayer, you know, accepting what I cannot change, courage, change things I can. And ageism, you know, because the way our society looks upon older people is like we're just kind of this commodity or warehouse something or other. And what do we do with all these old people we're going to have in our country now? And honestly, for myself, I basically like being an older person. You know, I do, and I accept that. But what is really hard for me is how society looks at me, you know, and not just being invisible, but I heard someone in her late 80s last year said, and she was a highly successful artist, and she said out of the clear blue or weren't talking about age, she said, you know, one of the hardest things for me is being treated as worthless. And I thought, wow, you know, and I think some people do feel that way. It's sort of like we older people just sort of don't exist. But then I go back and I think about when I was in my 20s, 30s, 40s, how did I act when I was at family reunions? How about the great aunts that were sitting in the corner, sitting on the sidelines? You know, I think it's something that I hope we can develop more of a sense of worth for our older members in our communities. Jim, I forgot what the question. Oh, you asked me about the positive things.
- [24:10]
Father Jim Martin
Positives.
- [24:11]
Sister Joyce Rupp
Yeah, yeah, positive things. So one of the things I like about. In fact I like it a lot, is that I do not pay much attention to what other people think about me. I mean, I know how society views me, but I am my own person and it's very different than in the past. I'm not worried about how I look physically, not concerned about what I might say. I keep saying my new theme song is the last line from Gone with the Wind. You know, frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn, but there's a great freedom in that. And there's a huge freedom for me because I've been so doing oriented all my life. I am creative. I had a lot of physical energy. I still have quite a bit. But to move away from doing the doing to the being part. Just this morning I was sitting there and I have a lot longer time for my prayer and reading now in the morning. And I just love just sitting there. I was just watching the sunrise and I thought, I'm not worried about a deadline right now. And I'm not. I do have deadlines, but I wasn't worried about then. But, you know, but it's just. It's a whole different attitude or a different way of living. More emphasis on being b e-ing than doing.
- [25:28]
Father Jim Martin
Yeah. My novice director used to say when we were too busy, you're human beings. Not human doings.
- [25:34]
Sister Joyce Rupp
Yeah, And I'll.
- [25:35]
Father Jim Martin
I'll never forget that.
- [25:37]
Sister Joyce Rupp
Yeah.
- [25:37]
Father Jim Martin
Yeah. You sound really content with it. Were you a person that was very active and concerned about appearance and what other people thought? I mean, in the past, had you been like that?
- [25:46]
Sister Joyce Rupp
Oh, you know, when I started out, one of the first jobs I had where I had to speak in front of people, I spent half my time before the talk being in the bathroom with diarrhea. I was so nervous and anxious about what people would think, and it took me quite a while. But, you know, where my change came for me was in my mid-30s. And that one verse in Ephesians 3:21, Glory be to God, whose power working through us can do more than we can ask or imagine. And it was at that point, you know, you always hear this thing about turning your life over to God. But I really believe in that time, I just began really trusting that however I was to be, you know, whatever I spoke, what I wrote for the most part would be okay. And so I gradually got out of that thing of, you know, I have to please other people. I'm still. I will always have some concern about that, I think, as a human being, but not the major focus it was in the beginning. Like, I've got to prove myself and I have to be really busy all the time. And, you know, I really had burnout when I was about 42. And it taught me a lot about having to take care of myself and not act the way I was, trying to get everything done for everybody.
- [27:03]
Father Jim Martin
Yeah, that's been the great freedom for me, too. I call it the. The freedom from the need to be liked, loved, or approved of.
- [27:10]
Sister Joyce Rupp
Okay.
- [27:11]
Father Jim Martin
And it really. I spent. I spent most of my early years earlier, up to my 40s and 50s, you know, consciously trying to get people to like me. And it's. It's very freeing because you ultimately realize you can't force people to like you. Some people aren't going to like you at all no matter what you do. Some people didn't like Jesus, and he was pretty nice. I had a therapist once say to me, I was frustrated about something and, you know, how to. How. How will this come across? And she said. Which I loved. She said, actually, most people aren't thinking about you.
- [27:43]
Sister Joyce Rupp
What a rude awakening.
- [27:44]
Father Jim Martin
Yeah, they're thinking about themselves. So you might even. Even when you're giving a talk or, you know, in. In my case, if you're, you know, saying mass or preaching or whatever, they're not thinking about that. They're thinking about or particularly like in a social gathering, they're thinking about how they're coming off and, you know, what's going on in their, their minds. And so that's freeing, too, that you're not, you're not the star of their show. Right.
- [28:06]
Sister Joyce Rupp
Yeah.
- [28:08]
Father Jim Martin
We're going to pause for a short break, but we'll be back in a minute. Loyola University Chicago's Hanks center for the Catholic Intellectual Heritage is proud to support the spiritual life of Father James Martin. This year, the Hank center celebrates 20 years of engaging Roman Catholic scholarship, thought and practice and its links as a living tradition to all academic disciplines. With its strong emphasis on research and interdisciplinary engagement, the Hanks center is a space where the fruits of scholarship and inquiry can be encountered, discussed and shared. Learn more about all Hanks center initiatives and public events at luc. Edu ccih. Now, have there been people in your life that have shown you what it means to age well and gracefully?
- [29:13]
Sister Joyce Rupp
A lot. A lot of people, yes. The person I often go back to is my great aunt Ida. I always have loved her name. Her name was Ida Wilberding Delperdang. And I thought that would be a great name for a novel in a novel. But what she taught me was about accepting my physicality when I get older. That was one piece. She died at 88. She had these deep wrinkles. I mean, deep, deep wrinkles in her face. She had the most wonderful sense of humor. She never had a lot of money. I knew her since I was quite well, very young, actually. She would take care of us sometimes. But as she got older, I loved to go visit her because it was just so enjoyable and being in her presence was just enough for me. But I never heard her complain about being old. She always had something to a story to tell that was uplifting. So it would be my aunt, my great Aunt Ida, and the other one is Sister Evangelista. In my community, she was a marvel. I remember she was like getting close to 100. And she had people going to the library and getting books for her because she was studying the Gospel of Luke and it just was, oh, she was a fine lady. I really, really, I learned a lot from her. So. So people like that, they're just real mentors and they say to me, yes, I can be like that.
- [30:41]
Father Jim Martin
Yeah, that's right. And, you know, I've had that experience in the Jesuits over and over again that you look to these older in the Jesuits, older men, and you think, boy, I want to be just like him. Right? I want to be open and Friendly and eager and cheerful and not complaining. You know, I've often thought. I don't know if this is your experience. The. The ones in the Jesuits who seem to age the most gracefully and the most cheerfully and are the most open are the ones who work in spirituality, are the ones who are spiritual directors or. Or writing about spirituality or accompanying people. And I sometimes find that, you know, and this is not always the case, the Jesuits who are so sort of tied to their work or their position. Right. This is kind of who they are once they step out of those positions. You know, if, you know, one. One spiritual director said to me, if you are what you do and then you're not active, you know, you think of yourself as nothing.
- [31:39]
Sister Joyce Rupp
Yeah. Who are you?
- [31:40]
Father Jim Martin
Whereas a lot of these spiritual directors were just so free and funny and relaxed and wise, and I thought, this is the way to be. Right. And I think it's a choice, too. You know, the other one I love is. I didn't know him very well, but Daniel Barrigan, the Jesuit activist, I read something once where someone asked him, a journalist, you don't talk about your physical problems or your sicknesses or things like that. And he said, I'll never forget this. I was thinking about this this morning. He said, I don't talk about that. That's a crashing boar. Which is. Which is kind of true, because I think, you know, I even sit around the dinner table with, you know, my brothers, even at my age, and, you know, it's about this doctor and that doctor and, you know, what my cardiologist said and my. Whatever this doctor. And I think part of it is, is really sort of putting all that in perspective. You know, you're. We all have bodies, as one of my directors would say, but it's not kind of central. So I found in my life, it's the spirituality gurus, if you will, who seem to be the most at peace. And I guess it makes sense, you know, because they're spending time with the spirit in themselves and in other people.
- [32:50]
Sister Joyce Rupp
Yeah. In my community, I have found that something happens with people who've suffered a lot, and they come to a point where they turn outward. And when people come in the room, their focus is on that person and not on themselves. And they'll ask how they are or how their children are. Just last week, I visited our oldest members, 97. And everybody loves to visit her, because you'll come in and you feel like you're the person she's been waiting for. That just. You're such a gift to her and so on, and. But there's no attention to herself. And, you know, she was sitting there, she had a fall. She had. Had broken her back, her arm was in a sling, and there was no. Nothing about woe is me. And, you know, she never even talked about her physical condition. It was just such a special visit, really.
- [33:41]
Father Jim Martin
That's a huge gift. Not everybody has that gift.
- [33:45]
Sister Joyce Rupp
Yeah, right.
- [33:46]
Father Jim Martin
And I sometimes wonder if it's. It's also regional, too. Right. I think in New York, people are much more likely to kind of dwell on the negative. That's not universal, but.
- [33:57]
Sister Joyce Rupp
Yeah.
- [33:58]
Father Jim Martin
Maggie, you had a question, I think.
- [34:00]
Maggie Van Dorn
Yes, I do. So I am noticing that there is just such a tremendous rise of cosmetic procedures of, like, Botox and injectables and all of these things that my peers and mostly women, you know, in their sometimes late 20s and 30s and 40s and stuff, are doing. And it feels to me like while those things almost used to be reserved for older women, maybe trying to preserve a youthful appearance that, like, it's getting increasingly younger, such that we don't even have permission to age. And the prevalence of it is really starting to get to me because I know so many people who are turning to it. So I just wonder, Joyce, if you were to speak to someone like myself, or maybe somebody listening, who feels constantly inundated with messaging around their appearance and how aging might be affecting that, what would you want to say?
- [35:10]
Sister Joyce Rupp
It would depend on what you were saying to me. If you were talking to me about the pressures of having to, you know, have a certain look because of society, I would address that public. But if you didn't. If you were. If you were just talking with me, but I knew that you were, you know, really focused a lot on that. I think what. I wouldn't talk about that with a person. What I would do is I would get them or encourage them to. To talk about what they really value in their life. And I would want to lead them towards self worth and then eventually could circle around to how much externally, how much that is of value and so on. But I think our culture's always been obsessed with physical looks. Last night on the news, I mean, I just was just shaking my head. There was a whole thing, and I don't know what program it is, but some woman's on it, and she has, like, irregular teeth or a gap in her teeth. And now everybody's talking about, oh, it's okay for not have perfect teeth, you know? And, I mean, it's just so much a part of our society. So I think the only way around that, I think we're not going to change the culture's view on that. But I do think that much more emphasis on who and what is really a value, you know, for yourself, what's lasting in your life.
- [36:35]
Maggie Van Dorn
You know, in other words, like, don't try to go to war with the cosmetic industry, don't confront that head on, but just shift the focus of the conversation to what is truly of value and most nourishing.
- [36:47]
Sister Joyce Rupp
I think that's where the energy's valuable there, rather than wasting the energy on something much larger than any of us can control. Yeah.
- [36:55]
Father Jim Martin
I also think it. It applies, you know, different ways to men and young men as well. So much of this is we don't want to make it the, you know, the kind of bet noir of everything. But I think social media really contributes to that.
- [37:07]
Sister Joyce Rupp
Yeah.
- [37:08]
Father Jim Martin
Because when people share their photos, they, you know, they filter them and they pick the ones where they look the best and the most attractive. And people tend to compare themselves. What they know is their sort of mix. A friend of mine said, mixed bag life to their perceived. The perceived perfection that they see in other people's lives. And I think that really, that really does damage to a lot of people, this compare and despair.
- [37:31]
Sister Joyce Rupp
Right.
- [37:31]
Father Jim Martin
Because you start to, you know, as Joyce was saying, you. You're sort of drawn away from what you have in life. Another. Another friend of mine says, can you have what you have?
- [37:41]
Maggie Van Dorn
Oh, I love that.
- [37:42]
Father Jim Martin
Yeah, I love it too, Joyce. Before we come to the end, I really did want to focus a little bit on one of my favorite books of yours, which I'm sure everyone says the same thing, which is praying our goodbyes and talk a little bit about loss and grief and even death. Where did praying our goodbyes come from? And maybe you can talk a little bit about what that book does and where it came from.
- [38:06]
Sister Joyce Rupp
Yeah, yeah. You know, thank you for that. I really wrote that book out of. For two reasons, I guess. One was my own healing process. My brother drowned when he was 23 and I was 25, and it took me about 15 years, really, to move through all of that. And it was the old stuff of, well, you know, my brother was so good. Why did God let him die? You know, it was an old view of God, but it was my view at that time. And the other was, I so wanted to help other people get through their. Their sorrows. You know, the big thing I learned from writing Praying Our Goodbyes was that the deeper down we go, the more Alike we are than different. And when I wrote that book, and that was my second book that I had published, and I had sent it out to a number of people to see what they thought of it. And I sent it. One of the people I sent it to was a director of Clinical Pastoral Education out in Seattle. I didn't know him very well, but anyway, he wrote back to me and he said, I really like the book, but you need to talk more about your brother's death. Now, I was very guarded about my feelings at that time and how I responded. And so I just kind of stated the facts and how I took me a long time. And you know, at first I was really kind of irritated by his response and I thought, well, who are you to tell me to bear my soul, you know, kind of thing. But, you know, I. Then I thought, well, Joyce, you did ask him, you know, his critique. So I really did expand on that. And I became very vulnerable with how I struggled with all of that. And do you know that to this day, most of the people that write to me about that book, almost all of them will say the part I appreciated the most was what you wrote about your brother. Because then they knew that what I wrote in that book was real. But really, Praying Our Goodbyes has taught me so much about being respectful of the time it takes for people to grieve and. And knowing that there are so many layers and levels and different kinds of things that people grieve, things that I might not grieve, that someone else really will, you know, so people that lose a pet. Now, I've never had a close pet, but it's like a death in the family for some people when their dog dies. So Praying Our Goodbyes covers a lot of different kinds of farewells. And it really deals with a lot of the misperceptions we have about God's involvement in our sorrows.
- [40:43]
Father Jim Martin
Well, I want to ask the follow up question is kind of obvious. So you let go of that God, you know, your brother's death, you know, why would God do this to a good person? So who is the new God? How is God different for you now?
- [40:58]
Sister Joyce Rupp
Yeah, well, you know how the turning point for me was ta ta. A Jesuit retreat, of course. I made the 40 day Ignatian retreat retreat. And, you know, praying the life of Jesus was such a turning point for me. And when I came to the end of that retreat, instead of asking why me? I. I just, I really. That old qu. I asked why not me? You know, I thought here I looked at the life of Jesus. And, you know, and that life moved through to a new life form. And it just helped me really let go of what I was hanging on to. And it's just been different for me ever since. It really is a God who suffers with me rather than the God that brings suffering, you know, which was the old form of knowing.
- [41:44]
Maggie Van Dorn
And, Joyce, how has grief changed the way that you pray to God?
- [41:49]
Sister Joyce Rupp
Oh, you know, my whole understanding of this divine presence in old age is really one of just a great love. And so when people ask me to pray for them, I take it seriously, and I always write them down. I have a little section in my journal, but I just name people to God now. I say, you know, what to do for them and with them. And so I just say their names in my prayer. And it isn't do this for them or cure this cancer, but it's just naming them. And having that compassionate connection to me is sufficient.
- [42:24]
Maggie Van Dorn
Okay, so one last question for the both of you before we go. This comes to us from Julie, and she writes, how do we revitalize a dry prayer life that feels like going through the motions?
- [42:39]
Father Jim Martin
Well, I can start. I don't want to say that's an easy question, but it's a question I get all the time, so I'm used to answering it. Now, St. Ignatius sometimes says, if your prayer is dry, pray more. Right. If you're. If you're dry for 15 minutes, pray for half an hour. I sometimes think that's almost like kind of unfair punishment for people. I usually suggest a couple things. The first thing I suggest is mixing it up, right? So, you know, Joyce was talking before about how she was, you know, constantly using Ignatian contemplation. If that's getting stale for you, try centering a prayer, or try lectio divina, or try spiritual reading, or try walking in nature, Right. So I think, mixing it up, I had a. A woman directee, who would be praying the exact same way for 10 years. And it just became a burden. And she said, I get up, I do my rosary, then I review the gospel of the day, and I do my Ignatian contemplation. Then I have a list of people to pray for, and then I do lectio divina. And it just. It was like a burden. And I said, kind of get rid of that and just do something you enjoy, something simple. So mixing it up is good. The other thing is to look for God in your daily life. So if your prayer life, your interior life is dry, look around you Right. Look to see where God is in relationships and work and ministry and whatnot, in nature and art. And then sometimes that's where the examination of conscience, the review of the day, comes in. So you can review where God has been in the active life. Usually what happens is that kind of calms the person down, and the person says, oh, okay, I can see God. And then the person isn't so focused, in a sense, on. On the interior prayer. So those are the things I generally recommend for dryness. And it's also to say one more thing. It's totally natural. You're not doing something wrong and you're not bad, and God doesn't, you know, hate you or has withdrawn God's grace from you. And that's helpful in my. My own life, because we all have dry periods, so to say it's natural as part of the ups and downs of any relationship. What would you say, Joyce?
- [44:43]
Sister Joyce Rupp
Well, thank you for what you've shared because. And the last thing would be the first thing that I would say. And it depends on how long that space is that dry prayer is. Depends on what else is happening. I mean, if they're in clinical depression, you know, their prayer is. It's going to be tough. But I really like what you just said. It's natural. I call it the ebb and flow. I said, it's like the ocean. You know, it's just going to come. It's going to go. Adding to what you've shared. I often talk with them or suggest to them spiritual reading. And by that I mean inspirational reading to me. Like, it nourishes or it feeds the spirit, and it can be a great help to someone. And then what you had said, Jim, I often ask them to focus on how they find kindness around them or how they find a sense of the presence of God. What are the some qualities, good qualities that you find in people and. And just being aware of that starts reconnecting them again to a relationship. And the other thing that I bring up with someone when they're talking about how dry their prayer is, is what do they believe the response of prayer ought to be? I mean, prayer is not about good feelings. Prayer is about relationship. And for some people, if they're not euphoric all the time, there is something wrong. You know, it's like. But prayer is really, you know, it's pretty calm there. We don't often get those great, fabulous moments that we read about with the saints. Yeah.
- [46:11]
Maggie Van Dorn
Thank you.
- [46:12]
Sister Joyce Rupp
You're welcome.
- [46:13]
Father Jim Martin
Well, Joyce, thank you so much for your Time. We really appreciated your words today, and thanks so much for your beautiful books and your ministry of accompaniment.
- [46:21]
Sister Joyce Rupp
You're welcome. Thank you. Yeah.
- [46:22]
Maggie Van Dorn
Thank you, Joyce. I've learned so much in listening to you.
- [46:25]
Sister Joyce Rupp
Blessings for both of you as you continue on your journey.
- [46:42]
Father Jim Martin
She's wonderful.
- [46:43]
Maggie Van Dorn
She really was and was so vulnerable with us.
- [46:46]
Father Jim Martin
Yeah. Talking about her, you know, her brother's death, also the diarrhea she had before. She goes on to talk. She's one of my favorite spiritual authors. And, you know, there's also just a kind of presence she has that I think calms you down.
- [46:59]
Sister Joyce Rupp
Yeah.
- [46:59]
Father Jim Martin
I think she's one of the rare spiritual writers who's just as good in person. Right. And just as good, kind of. You know, when you're listening to her, sometimes it doesn't translate. You know, very well, you might be a great writer, but you may not be very compelling in person or.
- [47:12]
Maggie Van Dorn
Right.
- [47:13]
Father Jim Martin
But she's. She's fantastic. Now, had you known much about her beforehand, or.
- [47:16]
Maggie Van Dorn
No, you actually introduced me to Joyce Rupp's writing, so thank you for that. And. And now I feel privileged. I didn't have to go on, like, 40 Jesuit retreats in order to meet Joyce Rupp.
- [47:28]
Father Jim Martin
I also think one of the things I was going to ask her was the kind of aging that she's doing and the people that she pointed to, which were really inspiring. I wonder how common that is, because when I run into older people like that, it's kind of a surprise. It's a nice surprise. Right. But that was kind of wonderful. And I. I wish that, you know, more older people were like that, basically, and it gives me something to shoot for. Right.
- [47:53]
Sister Joyce Rupp
Yeah.
- [47:54]
Father Jim Martin
I think we all see people who are old and maybe bitter and think, gosh, I do not want to be like that. I don't want to be complaining all the time. I don't want to be a burden. I certainly. This is one of my pet peeves. I don't want to always be talking about my medical problems and all that. Yeah. So it was just a. It was kind of inspiring in that way, too, you know, making me want to be a better older person and just a better person, because I think it's not just about aging. It's appropriate for someone in their 20s. Right.
- [48:20]
Maggie Van Dorn
Absolutely. And I think she is an example of somebody who has clearly been well loved and cared for and is able to speak from this place of great love and compassion. And I know that because even within myself, I don't have that much to be cranky about. And yet I Still like kvetch all the time about my. My silly, small woes. But I do know that when I have been well loved and cared for, when I have been listened to, as she recommends doing, you know, if someone's kind of cantankerous to just let them vent for a minute. And when that happens, it's like I. I come back to myself and there's a spaciousness within me that wasn't there before.
- [49:12]
Father Jim Martin
Well, and something you said really struck me, and it reminded me of something that I find really important, which is she's not only someone who's well cared for, she's also someone who avails herself of retreats and spiritual direction.
- [49:25]
Maggie Van Dorn
Yes.
- [49:25]
Father Jim Martin
And my experience in Jesuit life, and just in life in general, is that, you know, people who are open to receiving direction, going on retreats, going to therapy, listening to a spiritual counselor, being challenged, in a word, are the ones who are. Are able to grow the most. Right. And I think that is just so key because I know a lot of people, even my age and older, who have just stopped. Right. I mean, they're. They don't. They're not interested in seeing a therapist. They're not interested in going on a retreat. And if they go on a retreat, they don't want a director, you know, because it's challenging. And so what I'm trying to say is that she's someone who's open to being challenged and, And. And molded and still formed. And I think that's so important for all of us, no matter if we're 20 or 80. You know, are you open to that? Because it's. Here's the point. It's hard. You know, it's. I mean, you know, as you probably know, it's hard to have someone challenge you or invite you to grow. But I think it's. Gosh, it's so essential. And the people I know who are the most free are the ones that are the most open to being challenged and changed.
- [50:30]
Maggie Van Dorn
Yeah, absolutely. And we don't graduate from the spiritual life at any point.
- [50:35]
Father Jim Martin
Right.
- [50:35]
Maggie Van Dorn
So we always need teachers and mentors and directors and people who are going to challenge us. And it's funny, I think you could look at going on a retreat as a challenge. In my experience, it is that. But you emerge feeling so cared for because someone has taken an interest in your inner life.
- [50:55]
Father Jim Martin
Yeah.
- [50:56]
Maggie Van Dorn
So it is both a challenge, but it's also a comfort.
- [50:58]
Father Jim Martin
Yeah, I think that's right. Because, you know, sometimes people say, oh, how was your retreat? And I'll say it was Kind of hard. And they say what it's like. Yeah, it's hard, you know, if you really. If you really kind of are open to it. Right. I mean, this whole idea of wrestling with God, you know, it's in the Bible. It's. It's kind of tough, you know. I wanted to talk a little bit about three of Joyce's books.
- [51:19]
Maggie Van Dorn
Yes.
- [51:20]
Father Jim Martin
Two of them we focused on, and one of them I just want to recommend, we focused on Vessels of Love, which is really fascinating. The subtitle is Poems and Prayers for the Later Years of Life. Very contemplative. And there's a lot of poetry. Right. And she's a poet as well, so sort of a collection, Praying Our Goodbyes. I. I think I looked it up. It sold like250,000 copies already. I think that's the one she's the most known for. And it's about loss, grieving, death. You know, she said she talks about her brother's untimely death. That's a beautiful book. And, you know, who of us isn't going through transitions, you know, but the one that I really have loved is called Fragments of youf Ancient Name. It's a. It's a small book. And she looks at various. I think it's 99 images of God. God as the woman who is, you know, peeling potatoes or, you know, peeling peas on her lap. It's just so different. And I think, you know, we talked a little bit earlier about being stuck or feeling dry. Something like that book can really help you in your dryness. And Joyce talked about doing spiritual reading, which I think is really important when you're. When you're struggling with dryness. So these are great books. And also in my own book, Learning to Pray, I talk a lot about dryness and also spiritual direction, which we talked a lot about just what it is and how you do it. So a couple books in case you want to go a little deeper.
- [52:45]
Maggie Van Dorn
And you can find Joyce's books on her website, which is joycerupp.com and of course, Nick Jim's many books, wherever good books are sold.
- [52:54]
Father Jim Martin
Well, thanks, Maggie. And I really want to thank Sister Joyce Rupp, our wonderful guest, and everyone in the audience who's listening. Thanks for joining us. The Spiritual Life with Father James Martin is a production of American Media. This episode was produced by Maggie Van Dorn and our executive producer, Sebastian Gomes. We recorded in the William J. Loshertz studio in New York City with the production assistance of Kevin Christopher Robles and Grace Linehan. Our audio engineer is Noah Levinson. Adam Buckmuller edited the video of this episode, which will be made available on America Media's YouTube channel. The theme score is courtesy of Teddy Abrams. You can follow me across social media at jamesmartinsj. Also. Also, please help us grow the show by leaving a five star review on your favorite podcast platform. If you enjoy the spiritual life, then we have even more to offer you on America Media's website. Keep informed and inspired about our Catholic faith. Become a subscriber today@amer America magazine.org subscribe or click the link in the show's notes. Also, check out what I've written about this show this particular episode on our website. Thanks so much and God bless you. St. Joseph's Seminary, the major seminary of the Archdiocese of New York, offers a welcoming environment for everyone. With a range of in person and online courses, you'll have the opportunity to learn from some of the leading scholars in Catholic theology. St. Joseph's provides flexible class schedules, full accreditation and competitive tuition rates. Fall registration is now open. Learn more at Dunwoody Eduardo.