← The Spiritual Life with Fr. James Martin, S.J.
The Spiritual Life with Fr. James Martin, S.J.
Martin Scorsese on the priest who changed his life—and his films
00:49:05
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- [00:04]
Father Jim Martin
Welcome to the spiritual life. I'm Father Jim Martin. On this podcast, we reflect on how people experience God in their prayer and in their daily lives. And I am joined by my wonderful producer, Maggie Van Dorn. Maggie, good to be with you.
- [00:17]
Maggie Van Dorn
Good to be with you, Jim.
- [00:19]
Father Jim Martin
And we have a real treat for our audience because this time we're speaking with Martin Scorsese.
- [00:24]
Maggie Van Dorn
The Martin Scorsese.
- [00:26]
Father Jim Martin
Yes. Who just so people know everyone calls Marty. So we're going to call him Marty from here on in.
- [00:31]
Maggie Van Dorn
Yes. So Marty is widely recognized as one of the greatest directors in cinema history. He rose to prominence in the 1970s with films such as Mean Streets, Taxi Driver, and Raging Bull. And he's continued to shape the landscape of modern film with works like Goodfellas, the Departed, the Irishman, the Wolf of Wall street, and Silence, which is how you got connected to him. Rachem.
- [00:58]
Father Jim Martin
Yeah. I got a call, however, many years ago from his office called Sikalia, and they had read the Jesuit Guide to Almost Everything, one of my books, and asked for advice on the script, you know, what would a judge would say and do. And then they involved me in kind of reviewing the script. And then I ended up directing Andrew Garfield through the Spiritual Exercises and got to know Adam Driver and Liam Neeson and. And I became friends with Marty and that whole crew. But he's a great guy, as people will soon find out, if they don't already know.
- [01:31]
Maggie Van Dorn
Yeah. And could I just ask you to give a quick synopsis of Silence for maybe our listeners, viewers who haven't yet seen it or read the book.
- [01:40]
Father Jim Martin
Yeah, good point, because he does talk about that. So silence is about 17th century Portuguese Jesuit missionaries who go to Japan. They face a lot of persecution. And you'll hear him talk about a particular decision that Father Rodriguez, played by Andrew Garfield, has to face. And it's not to spoil it, but it's a decision to do something that on the outside seems really heretical and anti Christian, but really on the inside is something that God asks him to do to help save people. So that's kind of the big dilemma that you'll hear about. But it's a beautiful film, and maybe after people hear this podcast, they'll want to go out and watch it.
- [02:21]
Maggie Van Dorn
Yeah. Thank you. It's a great synopsis. And I should also mention that he has a television series called the Saints out right now. Right?
- [02:29]
Father Jim Martin
He does, and I participated in that along with Paul, Eli and Mary Carr. We have. It's a sort of series where you see a sort of half hour film version of the saint's life, and then we have a little panel discussion afterwards. So it's really. It's really well done.
- [02:45]
Maggie Van Dorn
Very cool. And just to put a bow on this bio, Martin Scorsese has been nominated for more Academy Awards than any other living director. And in 2007, he won the Academy Award for Best Director for the Departed. So we are in for a real treat in listening to this conversation today. But first, we have a question from our audience, and this question comes from Christina, and I think she echoes the questions that a lot of listeners have written in with, and that is, how can I keep the faith if I have so many doubts?
- [03:23]
Father Jim Martin
Well, Christina, thanks so much. That is maybe the most common question in the spiritual life. The first thing to say is that if you're a human being, you have doubts, right? So it's nothing to get embarrassed about or shy about. You know, we have the. The apostle Thomas who's called sometimes doubting Thomas. I think sometimes unfairly. It's natural to have doubts.
- [03:43]
Maggie Van Dorn
And.
- [03:44]
Father Jim Martin
And part of it is to recognize that to see them as part of our spiritual life, but also to not let them overtake you. Right? To remember that God has touched you in different ways in your life, to look at those experiences, to ground yourself in them. So you think about a relationship with God as a relationship with a person. We might have doubts about, does this person really like me or love me? But you go back to your experiences. This person has told me they love me. I've had experiences of this person loving me. And as St. Ignatius says, love shows itself in deeds, not words. And to really just say, look, I have to remind myself of what I've experienced from this friend, the same way I have to remind myself of the experiences that I've had about God, even though I have doubts. So the main thing is you can have faith and have doubts. It's very natural. And I think it's just part of being just a human being. Right. So, yeah, so don't worry about it too much.
- [04:40]
Maggie Van Dorn
Why do you suppose that people feel as though doubt is antithetical to the spiritual life, that it is such a problem to be anxious about?
- [04:49]
Father Jim Martin
That's a great question, Maggie. I think, you know, if it's all doubt, it's a problem, right? I mean, if all you're doing is doubting and, you know, sort of moving into agnosticism, then it is a problem. But I think people have been told that you can't have doubts, and why would you doubt God's will in your life? I think doubts come up, you know, more frequently when you're struggling or when you're suffering. You know, how could God let this happen? Right? Things are going well. You feel, oh, God's right with me. But if you get a bad diagnosis or someone dies in your family or a friend, you think, oh, my gosh, where is God? And people scold you sometimes if you say, I'm really struggling with my faith right now. No, don't you have faith? How can you not believe in God and God's right with you? And so I think, well, meaning people guilt people into feeling that they should never have doubt. But it's natural. It's just, look, I've been a Jesuit for 40 years. I've been a spiritual director for almost as long. And that's part of life, right? That's just part of the spiritual life. So the key thing is to say it's okay. I mean, a good analogy that's just coming to me is sometimes we get colds, right? Sometimes we get sick. And it doesn't mean there's anything wrong with you. Fundamentally, it's just part of the ups and downs of the physical life, just as doubt is part of the ups and downs of the spiritual life.
- [06:03]
Maggie Van Dorn
Well, the analogy that comes to mind for me is fear and courage. That courage isn't necessarily the absence of any fear, but it's acting in the face of it. And I think, of course, doubt is going to be there, and faith is still choosing to believe and to trust, to place your trust in something even when it's not abundantly clear or evident.
- [06:28]
Father Jim Martin
No, that's a great analogy. That you continue to believe, right? You continue to believe in the midst of your doubt, and you do what you need to do even in the face of the fear. Well, thank you, Christina. That's a great question, and we are happy that you asked it.
- [06:41]
Maggie Van Dorn
That's right. And if anyone listening would like to ask Father Jim a question, you can write to us at the spiritual lifemericamedia.org.
- [06:49]
Father Jim Martin
And now a word from our sponsor. Looking for a simple way to deepen your own spiritual life? Give Us this Day is a great resource that helps Catholics stay rooted in both scripture and prayer wherever you are, no matter how busy you are. It features both reliable and relatable spiritual reflections, essays on the lives of the saints, and, of course, lots of prayers to accompany you through the day. I'm really honored to be an editorial advisor. I've been that since the very beginning. And I write a monthly essay called Teach Us to Pray. And also I use Give us this Day every day. So I'm not just a contributor, but a user. And here's a great offer. Right now, listeners of the Spiritual Life can get 10% off their new print subscription. Just visit giveusthisday.org spiritual life and join the community of Catholics praying together again. That's giveusthisday.org spirituallife. All right, now, on to our conversation with Martin Scorsese. So welcome, Martin Scorsese. Great to have you with us.
- [08:07]
Martin Scorsese
Thank you. Thank you. Really good to be on this podcast. Is it?
- [08:11]
Father Jim Martin
Yep. New podcast.
- [08:12]
Martin Scorsese
I'm new to these podcasts, by the way, so I don't really understand. But it's a talk, isn't it?
- [08:17]
Father Jim Martin
Yes, it is. Well, so am I. So. So we're even. So we're gonna talk about your spiritual life and how God is at work in your daily life and in your prayer. But I wanted to start you off with your childhood, your upbringing. You were, of course, raised Catholic. Can you talk a little bit about what that looked like growing up? Were your parents religious and what was your home life like?
- [08:40]
Martin Scorsese
Well, I grew up down at the Lower east side on Elizabeth street between the Bowery, which was then also known as Devil's Mile, and Mulberry street, which was at that time known as Murder Mile. On Mulberry street and the corner of Prince and Mulberry is St. Patrick's Old Cathedral, which is the basilica now, and that is first Catholic cathedral in New York. And so that was our church, so to speak, because it was called St. Patrick and because so many Irish Americans were in that area. The nuns were pretty much from Irish stock, but the neighborhood had changed to Italian, so it was a little bit different under their tutelage, so to speak. But anyway, I was actually born in Queens, in Flushing, but my parents had to move back in 1949, and they were born to a life of having more than one foot in the medieval world of the small villages in Sicily and the burgeoning America, particularly New York. The depression, World War II, suddenly the American imperialist way of life, you know, the boom after World War II. And what I'm getting is that they were never quite openly religious in terms of making their Easter duty, so to speak. You know, they may go to midnight mass and Christmas. My mother used to take me around on Holy Thursday night to the different churches in the neighborhood. And some of them in the Ukrainian area, which was amazing. On 7th street between 2nd and 3rd, they were more invested in taking care of each other. 10 care, family and therefore, didn't really take the daily routine of the mass that I would have to go and serve at 7 in the morning with all the old Italian ladies there. They weren't part of that. So for me, the actual manifesting of my involvement in Roman Catholicism at that time, 1949, 50, 51, was of my own doing for many different reasons. Key reason was that I was very asthmatic and kept out of all any kind of activity that would excite me, create an asthma attack, et cetera. So I was one of those kids that was left behind. If they went on field trips, it was myself, an old girl, who had polio. And so we'd be left on Point street in the basement there of the school, painting pictures and that sort of thing. So I was kind of taken care of. And I was limited in my activities, which also meant limited running, no sports, no fighting. And I came from an area that was very tough. When I looked out the window of the 241 Elizabeth street, my grandmother's apartment within which my father had been born, one of seven or eight children. I looked out and it was like a wide angle shot, high angle, looking over what seemed like a painting by Brueghel. People loading in carcasses of animals into the butcher shop. Jukeboxes in the street, people running up and down, Funeral going on here, cars coming down. You know, I mean, it was life. To be teeming with life. 3, 4, 5 grocery stores loading and stuff. Barrels of olives. I mean, all the old ladies, all the women outside sitting on chairs, commenting on everything. The others looking at the windows, knowing everybody else's business. And a lot of the unfortunate men and some women too, would just come there and just collapse. And I saw every possible thing you could think of that's human.
- [12:21]
Father Jim Martin
It's a great image too. It's very visual. Not surprising for a director.
- [12:26]
Martin Scorsese
Well, it became something where it was pretty violent too. And violence was happening a great deal. Murder Mile Mulberry street, it was talked about. This was called that because a lot of the mob hits of the 20s and 30s and 40s, the bodies were dumped on Mulberry street as a sign. And we sold one or two, my friends and I. So for me, the nuns at the Sisters of Charity, for the most part, were really very nice of me. And I found some solace there in the cathedral in St. Patrick's became an altar boy. I also found solace in a movie theater. There was nothing else they could do with me, so they took me to the movies.
- [13:09]
Father Jim Martin
Now you've Talked about in other interviews and in an interview we did about eight years ago, Father Principe and his influence on you. Can you talk a little bit about who he was and what he did for you?
- [13:21]
Martin Scorsese
Yeah. As I say, we were there in 1950, okay. So I was eight years old. The priests who were there at St. Patrick's were mainly Italian priests, in some cases, didn't speak English very well. So they were, I think, there for the Italian community, Sicilians, Neapolitans, Calabrese and that sort of thing. But they didn't have much connection with the young people growing up, that's us. Until they sent a very young priest there named Father Paul Francis Principe. And then it was 1952, I was 10 or 11. And he stayed there for eight years. And he was Italian American, quite young, in his 20s, who is just completely different from any of the other religious figures in my life at that point. He in a way, parented us and also opened our minds and tried to balance the new America with the traditional. The value of Catholicism, the value of Christianity, the value of family. But how far does it go, in a sense, that. Do you continue at the age of 21, 22, 23, to get married, have children and just go to work? Is there anything more in life? Do you want to explore education? Do you want to explore other things in life? Do you want to learn to use your head rather than react emotionally constantly? And he would give us books. The main author, of course, was Graham Greene. Power and the Glory, Any of the Affair, but more the one I like, the Heart of the matter. Also Dwight MacDonald, who wrote, I believe, An Esquire, but he was a radical, I think. And the book he gave us, I still have his Memoirs of a Revolutionist. And one of the things he pointed out in that book, he says, take a look at MacDonald's article on George Patton. As I say, McDonald was radical. Here we are, young boys, the army, war films. We liked all that sort of thing, Westerns. But take a look at this, how he describes Patton. And in that volume, the extraordinary speech that Francis Coppola had, the beginning of the film patent. George C. Scott comes out against the American flag and speaks. That's in the article or that's in the essay, I should say, as an essayist. Bottom line is, the brutality and the worst aspects of human nature are exalted in that speech. How you're saying It's World War II. Of course, he said. Yeah, he said one of the things. Take a look at this line. Which he said, I hate Japs. Every time I see a pregnant Japan woman, I want to kick her in the stomach. That's not in the speech, in the movie. And so the question of war, the question of the war mentality, the question of being a human being, all this came together in that speech, in the essay by McDonald that he gave us. And you'd say, well, Morty, we had lost that war, et cetera. True, I understand this is the dilemma. But in order to be a warrior that way, he points out in the essay that we're just as barbaric. We sink to the lowest levels of each other.
- [16:36]
Father Jim Martin
So here's this priest. I've always found this part of your story interesting, Marty. Here's this priest who's really offering you some sophisticated fare. Right. And you're how old at this point? Roughly about 12. Yeah, it's incredible. And what was the setting? I mean, was it kind of after school stuff?
- [16:53]
Martin Scorsese
Streets on Mulberry Street.
- [16:54]
Father Jim Martin
Yeah.
- [16:55]
Martin Scorsese
Over here, the rectory is still there, but it was primarily street lessons. We'd argue about the Searchers. He just didn't like it. But he's a man who loved Westerns. The western has a certain mythology, and he would take us through it, had a certain. The genre has a certain rule. I think he may not have liked the searches because the rules are broken in that. Because the hero is somebody you can't really admire that much. He's a complicated and divided racist. Hence post war, in effect. There's John Wayne, the ultimate American, playing the ultimate racist. That's who we are in that sense, dealing with racism in the country.
- [17:38]
Father Jim Martin
We're going to pause now for a short break and we'll be back in a minute. If you enjoyed this conversation on the spiritual life, I encourage you to head over to America magazine.org where you'll find an article written by me and some of my spiritual takeaways from this podcast. Each conversation we have is so rich and complex that it's important to continue to reflect on these themes and how they apply to our daily lives. So head over to americamagazine.org or click in the link in the description to get started. See you there.
- [18:24]
Martin Scorsese
Boston College Clow School of Theology and Ministry is a Jesuit Catholic graduate school forming ministers for today's church. Generous scholarships are available to pursue degree programs, summer certificates and more. Hybrid study options are available for several programs, including offerings and spirituality studies. Learn more at bc.educstm.
- [18:53]
Father Jim Martin
Well, here you are with this wonderful priest who connects you to the church, who teaches you about film, who teaches about life? I'm curious, did that Catholicism continue as you grew older? You know, if you're in your 20s or.
- [19:06]
Martin Scorsese
Yeah, he. He said that one of the key things was. He said, you have to love the Mass. And this is something I never understood. I think I did see a difference in his approach to life greatly. I mean, besides Graham Greene and, you know, there was James Baldwin, there was Countess Hardy. All of these things were reading at the time, but it was mainly cinema. But he talked about loving the Mass, and I. I saw a change in ourselves, myself and my friends navigating that world through his advice and guidance and his scolding. He was very tough at times. And so I thought in my mind, I guess there's no such thing as going and making movies because they were made somewhere else. And I found the interest in the spiritual life to be more important than anything around me. I tried to think in terms of family, having a family, getting married. But the point was that he gave the best example. My father was very strong as an example, my mother too. But it was a very basic daily food on the table. What's right and what's wrong, and then, well, you can bend this way or that way, but still, what's right or what's wrong. They dealt with it in the daily workings, out of the morality and my brother's keeper, because a lot had to. Everybody sort of take care of each other. But Father Principe had a different. He was talking generally about life and about the soul and about. Rarely took into consideration the Mafia that was around us, because that was there, that was there. And it's hardly anything to say about it. That was. The organized crime was entrenched in there. So for me, how he navigated it all and how he gave us this good example. I wanted to be like him, and so I thought I'd be a priest. And I remember my parents being very surprised. And I remember, of course, being in preparatory seminary in 1955 or 56, whatever. I was 13 or 14, and I lasted only a few months. I was, as they say, invited to leave.
- [21:20]
Father Jim Martin
And why was. Why was that? What happened?
- [21:24]
Martin Scorsese
Something happened. And I realized the depth of the commitment and what it would mean. Do you have a vocation? Are they really calling you? I mean, just because you want to be like somebody that you admire and you love doesn't mean that you could do it their way. That doesn't give you the vocation, and it also doesn't give you a. A sense of protection from the world. Because where I came from was very scary. I think that's the way I came. Other people didn't. Other people handled it better. I couldn't. And I. And I, in effect, what am I doing? Am I hiding myself from the world? And I. I realized it's not about me. It's about others. It's about others. When you become a priest, I would think just the way that priest is, even in the power and the glory, you know, that character. It's about others. Yes, he has to. He asked money for the baptism of the kids in the village because he needs the money to get out of Mexico because he's being sought after by the authorities to be killed. But he still has the power to get baptism. Yes, he drinks, but he still has the power to get baptism. And so it's about dealing with the others. Even if he puts his life in danger, he deals with that.
- [22:35]
Father Jim Martin
So in you. How about in your 20s? Were you carrying some of this in your 20s?
- [22:40]
Martin Scorsese
I was. I was very much. But by that point, the passion that was part of, let's say, vocation was finding its way into creating stories. And basically, you could say movies or cinema. But at that point, I must tell you that, you know, by the late 50s, early 60s, the world changed greatly, as we all know. And so did the technology, and so did the influx of ideas and creative storytelling coming from all over the world, not just from Los Angeles. And so that became a passion to tell those stories and to make films, you know, narrative. And I think I put a lot of that into a lot of what I felt would be a vocation into the filmmaking process. Filmmaking life, I should say. But again, the stories had a lot to deal with the same themes, whether it's Mean Streets or even later on Taxi Driver or certainly Raging Bull. All these things were based in where I come from. I try to make films for other people in other ways, to make a big spectacle and never quite work out. I don't really belong there either.
- [23:52]
Father Jim Martin
One of the things I've always wanted to ask you, that's a perfect segue, is because we usually. Full disclosure. I directed Marty in the Spiritual Exercises, and I know him separately, and we talk a lot about spiritual stuff. But I've always wanted to ask you. So you have some, what you might call overtly religious films like the Last Temptation and Silence and Kundun. And then you have other films, like some of my favorites, Goodfellas, Wolf of Wall street, that have obviously moral themes, obviously, very strongly. Do you separate them into sort of religious and Non religious? Or is it all sort of part of a continuum?
- [24:25]
Martin Scorsese
No, for me, it's all the same.
- [24:26]
Father Jim Martin
Yeah.
- [24:27]
Martin Scorsese
I mean, sometimes. For example, a couple of films I had to make, I owed a studio, but allowed me to be able to make Lamentation of Christ. I owed them one or two pictures. They became Kate Fear and Casino. Other could have been. At times, I was involved in Schindler's Lisp for a little bit. Those were almost like assignments. And in a sense, I tried to find in them my own way. I don't say I'm coming in and putting in religious themes or it just seems to work that way. I seem to. What do I feel about this scene? What do I feel about this character? What if he or she is this way? What if there's a lack of faith and trust in this particular person? What if. What if this one feels commitment? Certain ways? It all comes out of my life experience. And so I find that there's elements of myself in these things that I hadn't planned on. Then the overt ones, yes, the overt ones are right there. But the overt ones are tricks in a way, because what's on the surface is. Is just the surface. It's really what is generated as you're watching. What generated as we even try to. As they say in France, mise en scene. That means putting the scene together. How do you do that? And as you're doing it, it's like a religious ritual. I mean, pretty much all of it is like a religious ritual for me on set, any movie I make. But the religious ones, I mean, the overtly religious ones. The actual making of a film is the ritual is a religious act. And so for me, I found that the burning desire to make a film on Jesus eventually found its way into Last Temptation of Christ. I had wanted to do others before, and I was stunned in a good way by Pasolini's Gospel According to Matthew. And I realized, well, I have to find another way to deal with this. Anyway, the point is, it took years to get that made. There was a lot of trouble, a lot of difficulties, personal setbacks, financial, everything you could think of. And also they sent me out of Hollywood, out into the diaspora. They just threw me out. But eventually I got back and the picture was made. However, and as I made it, something else happened, and that was that I realized that I had to go deeper. The story I knew, or I thought I knew, the one I grew up with, the one I deal with in the cosmos every day. Maybe I was just touching the surface of it in terms of iconography, that sort of thing. And I suddenly had to cleanse myself of that and find another way of telling these stories. That, interestingly enough, came Archbishop Warburn. He gave me the book Silence, which was when he saw the film. And so I read the book, and in 89, in Japan, actually, I was there, I just finished shooting Goodfellas, and I had to go do something with Akira Kurosawa, and I flew there. And on my trip I read that book and I said, I want to make this. But it took me years to understand how to do it, how to get the script. For, like 20 years, I think I still hadn't gotten there to understand Rodrigo to me, but I say understand, but to know how to go about presenting this story and who these characters are, that's so interesting.
- [27:41]
Father Jim Martin
So I didn't realize that. So last temptation, in a sense, leads to Silence. What about Silence appealed to you? Because it is famously a difficult book. It's about 17th century Jesuit missionaries who are in Japan, and it's quite, I would say, focused on their suffering and their persecution and the suffering and persecution of the people. What is it that appealed to you about that?
- [28:02]
Martin Scorsese
It's what Rodriguez decides and the depth of his revelation when he makes that decision, his revelation of the truth of God's love. It seemed like it stopped all the shouting and suddenly realized this is who we are and this is what God wants and we have to embrace God's love. And it's a mystery. There's no doubt. It's a great mystery. Yet there were others, as we know, who are crucified on rocks. And, you know, they. They died, the martyrs died. He took on Rabigus, took on complete rejection and complete shame, I think, for his action. Yet he knew that it was the right action. He felt that. And that's an interesting story to me.
- [29:00]
Father Jim Martin
It is. And. Yeah, and for those who don't know it without spoiling.
- [29:03]
Martin Scorsese
Yeah, that's the problem.
- [29:04]
Father Jim Martin
Yeah, yeah. Well, I'll just say he makes a decision that to outward eyes seems like a terrible decision and then sort of a heretical decision, but from his own lights and his own spiritual background is what God is asking him to do. And that's sort of the fulcrum of the book. Why is he doing this now? Actually, that's a perfect seg. Because I now would like to talk to you about the spiritual exercises, because you can't understand what Rodriguez does and try not to spoil it without understanding a little bit about the spiritual exercises which you have Just completed. So I'm going to bring you a little bit back into know current day. The Spiritual Exercises is of course St Ignatius's four week plan for a retreat that enables you to enter into the life of Christ imaginatively, but you can also do it over the space of many weeks and months. And it's called the Exercises in Daily Life. So again, disclaimer. I directed Marty through all this. I'm not going to tell anything that he said. I will not reveal anything. But what made you want to do it? What made you want to do the Exercises?
- [30:12]
Martin Scorsese
Well, I think the writing of the script with Jay Cox was one thing. We found our way deeper and deeper into the material scene by scene, line by line. But the actual making of it was something that was, I think, a great experience, not only for myself, but there are members of the crew who said they changed their lives. And so for me it isn't something you shoot and this complete, there's no end to it. The search is always there. And so for me it seemed like the natural thing would be to try to immerse myself in that. The Spiritual Exercises themselves, which would be another way of dealing with the questions I have and dealing with coming near to the end of your life, the people around you, your family, all of this, what our existence is, the nature of Jesus, the nature of what Jesus means to me, just to do it, to be in that world, to be in that moment. And when he's given that choice in the movie, I don't want to do a spoiler, but he's given, he's given that choice and in that moment is where I want to stay.
- [31:22]
Father Jim Martin
What was the experience of doing the exercises like for you?
- [31:27]
Martin Scorsese
Well, they were freeing in a way. They, I think the hardest thing to do was to actually start acting them out. But once you start really getting into the exercise itself, that particular exercise, you could be in it for an hour, hour and a half or more than that, and explore and explore and explore and things happen, thoughts, feelings, confrontations. You almost hear them speaking back to you. You see things. I'm not saying this is a mystical experience, but there were some moments that were gave great comfort, I think. And I also think I missed to a certain extent beginning the day with them. You know, I mean, it took over about five months to do and it was difficult because I was traveling around too, so that the environment changes, but usually it was in this room. But it's to immerse yourself in that world and to know Jesus.
- [32:21]
Father Jim Martin
Well, I'm glad you mentioned not seeing it actually, visually, it's not a mystical experience because a lot of people don't quite understand that it's in your imagination. What scenes do you remember the most from the exercises? What comes to mind when you think about scenes that really affected you or particular meditations?
- [32:40]
Martin Scorsese
Well, certainly, ultimately, the Passion Week was very difficult. I had to go back a few times to deal with being at the foot of the cross. It was very hard to do. I remember being very moved a few times throughout. One of them was with Peter the night he understandably had to deny Jesus three times. And I found that I was very, very more compassionate with him because I knew the pain he was going through.
- [33:10]
Father Jim Martin
Compassionate with Peter?
- [33:11]
Martin Scorsese
Yeah, yeah, there's. That. There's the Blessed Mother seeing her son again alive, which is really important for me, and how she would have reacted. I saw that. I felt it. There were the beginnings, too, which were kind of fun. The Jesus birth in the. The barn or whatever, but the, you know, basic things. Putting yourself in a real situation. You know, Joseph goes in and said, do you have a place to stay? She's going to give birth low. We have this. We don't have it. There are people. He comes in at a certain point saying, we got the baby. And there are people in the tavern who might be saying, great, another one to suffer, you know, rather than saying, oh, it's so wonderful. There are ways of trying to understand exactly what it. What even the texture and the smell of the place. The early years of Jesus, for example, playing with his friends, and then in particular to him staying in the temple and his parents getting really angry. They had to go all. But they were halfway home, you know, that they realize he's not here. Where is he? He's outrageous. Maybe something happened to him. Can't be. No. So and so saw him. And you really think of yourself as parents going. And you again. You finally wind up in the temple and there's this guy, you know, well, that's a group of people. Wait, there's another group back there. Who's that? You know, and really, what are they.
- [34:33]
Father Jim Martin
Going to do when they find him?
- [34:34]
Martin Scorsese
I think they'd be pretty angry.
- [34:36]
Father Jim Martin
Yes. You know, and they are angry. Don't you know what you've. Yeah. Don't you. Don't you care about what you're doing to our. Your father and me?
- [34:42]
Martin Scorsese
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And what is he going to say? He said, well, he says I should be my father's business or my father's house. But ultimately, I wonder, well, what happens after that, when they walking back, how would they relate to each other? Yeah, there are things like that, that it's not like writing a script or directing a film, but it's being and experiencing the human behavior, experiencing the emotions themselves that you would have, who you think that you could identify with in these people. And so for me, it was an unknown every day, a journey that I took every day. And it became something that was really comforting, challenging, as they say. But once you slip into it, you don't need to stop. Great.
- [35:36]
Father Jim Martin
That's a great. I've never heard it described like that. An unknown and a journey every day, which it is because you don't know what's going to happen. You generally. Yeah, you know the outlines of the. You know, you more or less know Jesus is going to do this and then do this and then suffer and die and rise from the dead. But in your prayer, you have no idea what's going to happen.
- [35:52]
Martin Scorsese
You have no idea. You have no idea. He's got to convince the people he has been with and they've gone through all this problem, right. He's going to be okay. I've got the. I've got. Now this is what's going to happen. I'm going to die well. And I'm going to come back in three days. Oh, well, come on. So let's get our head around that. How would that. Honestly, you'd react to this as you're figuring it out, so to speak. You're living it. You're living it. And it is remarkable. I know people have done it three or four times. I don't know how they can.
- [36:31]
Father Jim Martin
Yeah, I've done it twice and it's. I don't know if I could do it a third time. It is. It's a real investment too. What would you say to someone who was thinking about doing it? What would your advice be to them?
- [36:42]
Martin Scorsese
Well, my advice would be to. It seems daunting at first. Once you get into past the first week, let's say it's like, how can you do the rest? Well, don't give up on it. And if you feel you can't do one of the exercises, don't do it. I mean, wait. Wait till the next day, wait till the day after. It's not an exam, you know, it's not being. You're not being graded. I mean, it is something for you to experience and let it come to you. It's certainly something you don't force.
- [37:11]
Father Jim Martin
Yeah. Because you're not doing it. It's God that's doing it.
- [37:14]
Martin Scorsese
Yeah. You can't force it now.
- [37:16]
Father Jim Martin
So it's very interesting in this conversation we've gone through, we've gone from you being a boy at church, an altar boy, and Father Principe and sort of incorporating religious themes into your movies. How would you say the Exercises has changed your understanding of who Jesus is? Looking back on what that boy knew. Right. And what Father Principe would have taught you and what your parents would have taught you, how did encountering Jesus in the Exercises, or did it change how you understand Jesus?
- [37:47]
Martin Scorsese
Well, there's a closeness now, maybe the wrong word, but more of a friendship. And it's something. Something I had felt over the years when I was younger, and I felt it when I was doing Last Temptation, but then it disappeared for a while, but I think it's back. And that is the proximity of Jesus. The Jesus being in you, with you, in your life, all around you. You may live up to them, you may not. I don't know. You know, you try. Every day is a little bit of a test. You know, the. The. The. The WI fi is going out in the middle of. And there's irritation. And the language you use for that sort of thing, you know, may not be the best, but the needs other people have around you, how you handling that? And also then how much do you have to take care of yourself where it doesn't become just selfish? And I think something has happened, having gone through the exercise, because it took about six months, that there's a proximity, and it feels good. It feels right.
- [38:56]
Father Jim Martin
Well, that is a perfect place to end. Thank you for talking about. It is. It's perfect. Thanks for talking about Jesus's proximity to you. You know, I was thinking, Marty, that As you know, St. Ignatius asks us in the Exercises to speak to Jesus as one friend speaks to another, which is great. And I want to thank you, one friend or another, for talking to us and sharing your spiritual life with us. So thank you very much.
- [39:21]
Martin Scorsese
Well, thank you, Jim. I will, you know, and thank you, everyone there. Sorry about the WI Fi.
- [39:26]
Father Jim Martin
That's okay. It's a penance for us, right? This, I think. Listen, thanks very much. Safe travels, too.
- [39:36]
Martin Scorsese
Okay, I'll speak to you soon. All right.
- [39:38]
Father Jim Martin
God bless. Bye. Bye. So what did you think about Marty?
- [40:06]
Maggie Van Dorn
I was blown away. I couldn't have imagined a more cinematic interview than the one that he gave.
- [40:14]
Father Jim Martin
Yeah, he's very visual. Obviously, when he was describing growing up in the Lower east side and looking at his window, it was like a bruegel painting. Yeah. He's very cinematic.
- [40:23]
Maggie Van Dorn
It also helped me appreciate the impossibility of disentangling one's faith or religious upbringing from the cultural setting in which it was supported and nourished. So just that Italian American experience in the Lower east side and how much of a backdrop it provided for his own religious upbringing.
- [40:44]
Martin Scorsese
Yeah.
- [40:45]
Father Jim Martin
And I also really liked his. I don't think. I mean, I. I know him, obviously, but I never heard him talk about how much of religion was infused into all of his movies. Right. And in a sense, they're all religious. Right.
- [41:00]
Maggie Van Dorn
Yeah. I love that he didn't actually make a distinction between the overtly religious themed movies and everything else. That it was kind of like he acknowledged that all of this belongs. Which is something that you say so often on the podcast. Right. That, like, all of life is spiritual and we can bring all things to God.
- [41:19]
Father Jim Martin
Yeah. My first spiritual director, David Donovan, used to say, you can't just put a certain part of your life in a box and stick it on a shelf. Right. That's part of your spiritual life. You have to take it down and look at it. I also. I was so happy that he talked about his experience in the Exercises. For me, that was the most powerful part. And I've heard him talk about that privately. I obviously couldn't share that. But the idea of Jesus proximity is really powerful. And again, that's how Ignatius asks us to enter into the Exercises and to speak as one friend speaks to another, which is really kind of. It can be surprising for people when they first encounter it.
- [41:57]
Maggie Van Dorn
Now, I need for you to back us up a little bit because I have so many questions, like, were you surprised when Martin Scorsese approached you, Jim, about doing the Spiritual Exercises?
- [42:09]
Father Jim Martin
Well, I'd say yes and no, because I had directed Andrew Garfield through the Exercises also for silence. And that took. Same thing that took six months. The way we do it, the Exercises in daily life, which I'd mentioned, and he had been coming to see me on and off about different things, and then a friend of his did the Exercises, or he got to know someone who had done the Exercises and said, could I do it? And I thought, well, he certainly experienced enough in the spiritual life to be able to do it. And, you know, it was a great honor to do it with anybody.
- [42:40]
Maggie Van Dorn
Yeah.
- [42:40]
Father Jim Martin
And also to, you know, again, without breaking confidence, to hear his experiences, which he shared, was really great, because anytime you do the Exercises, it's almost like doing them yourself, because you're hearing their experiences. Right. You know, Jesus did This, Mary did this, Peter did this. It's very powerful and it's a real. It's a spiritual experience to direct them as well.
- [43:02]
Maggie Van Dorn
Yeah. And St. Ignatius wanted Jesuits to do the Spiritual Exercises. Did he also want lay people to be able to do them as well?
- [43:11]
Father Jim Martin
Absolutely, yeah. And so we do them at least twice. So we do them once as a novice, and we do it in the last stage of our formation, which is called tertianship, the full Exercises. So you go away for a month and you do them. Absolutely. He gave them to lay people from, you know, from the get go. And now the way that Marty did it was called the. Is called the Exercises in daily life, sometimes called the 19th annotation, because it's the 19th note that Ignatius put in the Exercises, which is basically for people who are engaged in business. I forget what he says exactly. But sort of daily business.
- [43:46]
Maggie Van Dorn
Worldly affairs.
- [43:47]
Father Jim Martin
Yeah, worldly affairs. Right, exactly. They can be done over the course of several months and really, you just sort of stretch it out. And instead of having, you know, one or two meditations a day, you have, you know, several over a week. And the person prays not several hours a day, but one hour every day for a week. And then you usually meet once a week. And that's what we did for, you know, a couple of months. And I. I've accompanied people through that 19th annotation retreat a couple of times. And it's. It's really wonderful. It's a. It's a great way for everyone to do the Exercises.
- [44:20]
Maggie Van Dorn
And I imagine that in some ways the experience can be really similar. I mean, hopefully someone would walk away with a greater sense of closeness to Jesus, but the way that they encounter Jesus must be as unique as the individual themselves. Right. Like all the things that come to you in your imagination are going to be just a surprise. Right?
- [44:45]
Father Jim Martin
It is. And it depends on. Some people have very visual imaginations, again without, you know, breaking confidence. Marty talked about that himself. He's a director. He has a very visual imagination. Other people who, you know, may not have as visual or active an imagination, they nevertheless can do it. One spiritual director said to me about people who supposedly don't have visual or active imaginations, if you wince when you hear someone telling the story about them hitting their finger with the hammer, if you wince at that, you have an imagination. So. So you might not have the same kind of imagination. And. And of course, the way that, you know, God is going to relate to you and through your imagination in the exercise is going to differ from Person to person. So it's also about not comparing.
- [45:30]
Maggie Van Dorn
Right.
- [45:30]
Father Jim Martin
You know, mine wasn't as visual as Martin Scorsese's one. Well, that's fine. You're not Martin Scorsese. You're not a director and you're you. So, yeah, it's sort of allowing God to take you where you are.
- [45:40]
Maggie Van Dorn
Now, if somebody's interested in doing the spiritual exercises, where should they look them up?
- [45:46]
Father Jim Martin
Great question. I would say the first place to go would be a retreat house. So look at a, if you can, at Jesuit retreat house, because we're used to giving them and this is all over the world and ask them for suggestions of how to do it. You can either do the full exercises for a month, you can go away, but most people don't have that opportunity. So you can do the exercises in daily life, but you really need someone who is trained. So that's why retreat house is a good place to start because they know a lot of people are trained in giving the exercises.
- [46:16]
Maggie Van Dorn
Yeah, that's great. And honestly, it's inspiring to hear that Martin Scorsese has done the exercises and Andrew Garfield and among many other great men and women that I know. But it's cool to see how the signation spirituality is percolating in various spheres of life and arts and culture.
- [46:37]
Father Jim Martin
Yeah. And I would say. And you can too, to our listeners and to our viewers, feel free.
- [46:42]
Maggie Van Dorn
Great.
- [46:43]
Father Jim Martin
Well, thanks, Maggie.
- [46:44]
Maggie Van Dorn
Yeah, thanks, Jim.
- [46:46]
Father Jim Martin
The Spiritual Life with Father James Martin is a production of America Media. It's produced by Maggie Van Doren and our executive producer, Sebastian Gomes. We recorded in the William J. Loshert studio in New York City with the production assistance of Grace Lenahan and Kevin Christopher Robles. Our audio engineer is Noah Levinson. Adam Buckmuller edited the video of this episode which will be made available on America Media's YouTube channel. The theme score is courtesy of Teddy Abrams and Nate Farrington. You can follow me across social media amesmartinsj. Also, please help us grow the show by leaving a five star review on your favorite podcast platform. If you love the spiritual life, then we have even more to offer you on America magazine's website. Keep informed and and inspired about our Catholic faith. Become a subscriber today@amer America magazine.org subscribe or click in the link in the show notes. Thanks so much and God bless you.
- [48:03]
Martin Scorsese
Sam.