Mary Karr: ‘a black belt sinner’ loved by God

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Mary Karr: ‘A Black Belt Sinner’ Loved by God"

The Spiritual Life with Fr. James Martin, S.J. Host: America Media Release Date: July 1, 2025

Introduction

In this compelling episode of The Spiritual Life with Fr. James Martin, S.J., host Fr. Jim Martin and producer Maggie Van Dorn engage with award-winning poet and Syracuse University professor Mary Carr. The conversation delves deep into Mary’s spiritual journey, her experiences with Catholicism, and her profound insights on prayer, sin, and personal transformation.

Meet Mary Carr

Mary Carr is a distinguished poet and memoirist, renowned for her New York Times bestselling memoirs including The Liars Club, Cherry, Lit, The Art of Memoir, and her recent poetry collection, Tropic of Squalor. Born in Groves, Texas, Mary’s work poignantly explores themes of family, addiction, faith, and personal transformation. She frequently contributes to esteemed publications such as The New Yorker, The Atlantic, and Poetry magazine.

Spiritual Direction Explained

Fr. Jim Martin introduces the concept of spiritual direction, essential for understanding Mary’s journey. “A spiritual director is someone who helps you find God or notice God maybe is a better word in your prayer and in your daily life” (02:07). This confidential practice plays a crucial role in guiding individuals to recognize God’s presence in their lives.

The Spiritual Exercises of St. Ignatius

The conversation transitions to the Spiritual Exercises of St. Ignatius, a cornerstone of Jesuit spirituality. Fr. Martin explains, “It's a plan for a retreat that follows the life of Christ,” which can be undertaken over four weeks at a retreat house or spread out over several months in daily life (02:44). Mary shares her experiences, having completed the exercises twice, highlighting their impact on her relationship with Jesus.

Audience Engagement: Addressing Feelings of Unworthiness

An audience question from Michael prompts a heartfelt discussion. Michael asks, “As a sinner who makes selfish choices, I always feel so keenly unworthy. How do I break free of this?” (04:41). Fr. Martin and Mary respond by distinguishing between guilt (“I did a bad thing”) and shame (“I am a bad person”), emphasizing God’s boundless mercy and the importance of recognizing one’s inherent worth through God’s love.

Mary Carr’s Conversion Story

Mary shares her journey to Catholicism, a path marked by skepticism and profound transformation. Initially agnostic, Mary’s decision to attend church was sparked by her son’s desire. “I just sat in the back row while Deb was in Sunday school and graded papers” (12:53). Her interactions with Father Joe Cain, a humble and authentic priest, ultimately led to her conversion, despite initial doubts and doctrinal disagreements.

Experiencing Jesus Through the Spiritual Exercises

Delving into her spiritual practices, Mary describes the Ignatian method of imaginative prayer: “You ask the Holy Spirit to put you in the scene of whatever gospel you're studying” (26:42). Despite initial challenges in visualizing scenes, Mary overcame them through guidance and patience, allowing her to deeply connect with Jesus’ life and teachings.

Mystical Experiences and Divine Encounters

A highlight of the episode is Mary’s recounting of her mystical experiences. She describes a profound encounter during a Vatican visit where she felt an overwhelming sense of God’s love: “It was like I got hit by something, but it was totally out of the blue. I wasn’t praying...it was really, like, big” (48:25). Fr. Martin relates this to Rudolph Otto’s concept of mysterium tremendum et fascinans, underscoring the awe-inspiring nature of divine encounters.

Understanding Sin and Personal Growth

Mary opens up about her struggles with sin and judgment. She shares, “I make selfish choices all the time. I mean, I sit there with a thing of Haagen Dazs and eat the whole thing” (41:28). Through prayer and self-awareness, she has learned to become less judgmental, both towards herself and others. Her approach emphasizes compassion and recognizing the shared human experience of imperfection.

Trauma and Spiritual Resilience

Addressing the impact of childhood trauma on spiritual life, Mary reflects on her difficult upbringing: “My mother, while a beautiful, very smart, very interesting woman, stood over me and my sister with a butcher knife” (56:56). Fr. Martin emphasizes the importance of seeking professional help alongside spiritual guidance, advocating for honesty and openness in healing from trauma. He further connects Mary’s experience to Jesus’ own traumas, offering a profound sense of companionship and understanding through faith.

Conclusion

The episode concludes with reflections on mystical experiences and the enduring presence of God in everyday life. Maggie Van Dorn aptly summarizes, “What I was told, that it's not breaking a rule, but it's turning away from grace. It's turning away from a place of peace and Love” (44:26). Fr. Martin encourages listeners to cherish moments of divine grace and to continually seek deeper connections with God, regardless of life’s challenges.

Notable Quotes

• Fr. Jim Martin (02:07): “A spiritual director is someone who helps you find God or notice God maybe is a better word in your prayer and in your daily life.”

• Mary Carr (12:53): “I sat in the back row while Deb was in Sunday school and graded papers.”

• Mary Carr (26:42): “You ask the Holy Spirit to put you in the scene of whatever gospel you're studying.”

• Mary Carr (48:25): “It was like I got hit by something, but it was totally out of the blue. I wasn’t praying...it was really, like, big.”

• Mary Carr (41:28): “I make selfish choices all the time. I mean, I sit there with a thing of Haagen Dazs and eat the whole thing.”

Final Thoughts

Mary Carr’s candid and intimate recounting of her spiritual journey offers listeners a vivid portrayal of the interplay between personal struggles and divine grace. Her story underscores the transformative power of faith, the importance of community, and the boundless mercy of God, making this episode a profound exploration of the spiritual life.

Transcript

[Fr. Jim Martin]

Body, mind and spirit. We believe if one needs help, so do the others. As part of Catholic Healthcare's holistic approach to treating the whole person. Here, people are not viewed as symptoms or insurance claims. And when we treat the body, mind and spirit, we believe the whole person will thrive. Catholic Healthcare Learn more at wecareyouflourish.org Sponsored by the Catholic Health Association. Welcome to the spiritual life. I'm Fr. Jim Martin. On this podcast, we reflect on how people experience God in their prayer and in their daily lives. And I'm joined by my superb producer, I know I keep giving you a new adjective, Maggie Van Dorn. Maggie, good to be with you.

[Maggie Van Dorn]

Thanks, Jim. I like all the new adjectives. It's good to be with you. And I'm so excited for what our guests are about to hear this week. We have an incredible guest ahead of us and her stories alone, I think are going to rock your world. Who are we speaking with?

[Fr. Jim Martin]

We are speaking to Mary Carr.

[Maggie Van Dorn]

So, Mary Carr is an award winning poet and the author of New York Times bestselling memoirs, the Liars Club Cherry and Lit, as well as the Art of Memoir and five poetry collections, most recently Tropic of Squalor. Mary Carr was born in Groves, Texas, and her work explores themes of family addiction, faith and personal transformation. She regularly contributes to the New Yorker, the Atlantic, and Poetry magazine and is the Peck professor of Literature at Syracuse University. We would also be remiss if we didn't acknowledge at the jump that you are Mary Carr's spiritual director.

[Fr. Jim Martin]

That's right. I am Mary Carr's spiritual director. And it's a little unusual to be interviewing one of your directees, as they're called, but I'm not going to divulge anything that she has said in direction, obviously.

[Maggie Van Dorn]

And we talk about spiritual direction quite a bit on this podcast. But what would you say, real briefly is spiritual direction for those who might not be too well acquainted with it?

[Fr. Jim Martin]

Yeah, that's a great question. A spiritual director is someone who helps you find God or notice God maybe is a better word in your prayer and in your daily life, which is, you know, something of what we do in this podcast. So the director really helps to point you to places where God is and really listens to you talk about your prayer in your daily life. But it's a confidential practice. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's one reason I'm not going to divulge anything.

[Maggie Van Dorn]

Right. But she certainly divulges many great accounts of God's presence in her life. The other thing that you both talk about are the Spiritual Exercises. Wondering if you could give us a primer on those real quick?

[Fr. Jim Martin]

Yeah. So the Spiritual Exercises of St Ignatius is a plan for a retreat that follows the life of Christ. And it's most well known, probably among many of our listeners and viewers for this kind of imaginative prayer where you place yourself in gospel scenes and you go through four weeks. You can do it at a retreat house for four weeks, or you can do what's called the Spiritual Exercises in daily life, where those four weeks are stretched out over usually a couple of months, and you might meet with the directee every week. So there's two goals. One is to come to a decision, but really the underlying goal is to deepen your relationship with Jesus through these prayer exercises. And, yeah, Mary is someone who has done it. I've done it twice in my life. And really is kind of the centerpiece of Jesuit spirituality.

[Maggie Van Dorn]

Yeah. And you don't have to be a Jesuit to do the Spiritual Exercises. Right.

[Fr. Jim Martin]

You definitely do not. In fact, the first people that Ignatius gave them to, we talk about giving the Exercises, were lay people. And so many, many lay people do it. It's quite a investment of time. And, you know, you can also do an eight day retreat where you go through kind of a. Essentially a modified version of the Exercises, but it's really worth it. And it's something like a marathon. You don't want to just start off doing that. You have to sort of do some sprints before that. But I think it's really worthwhile. And if people want to do the Spiritual Exercises in daily life, there's lots of directors who will do it. There's a really wonderful book by Kevin o' Brien about the Spiritual Exercises. Actually, he's done two, and so, yeah, you know, just kind of look it up and see what you think.

[Maggie Van Dorn]

Yeah. Lots of resources out there.

[Fr. Jim Martin]

Many.

[Maggie Van Dorn]

Well, Jim, you are also an incredible resource, especially to our audience. So I have a question, an audience question from Michael. And Michael asks, as a sinner who makes selfish choices, I always feel so keenly unworthy. How do I break free of this?

[Fr. Jim Martin]

Well, thanks, Michael. That's a great question. And as I see it, it's really two questions. The first is, you know, how do I break free of making selfish choices? The second is, how do I break free of feeling unworthy? The first part is tough. Right. Because we're all human and we tend to be selfish. I think one way of doing that is by noticing first of all that you are making selfish choices when you do make selfish choices. And again, we all do. And then reminding yourself that you have a choice, right? You have a choice between being charitable and loving and open and generous and being self centered, you know, kind of maybe tight fisted and ungenerous and maybe crabby a little bit. You know, I get crabby myself too. And to say we always have a choice. So, you know, some days you're having a rotten day, right? And you have a choice. Do you pass it on to somebody else, you pass on that misery, or are you trying to be generous and charitable? The second part of that question, the second way of interpreting it is how do I break free of the feeling so unworthy? Now we're all unworthy of God's love in one way or the other, right? None of us is worthy of that really. It's all gift. But I think sometimes we can move into shame. I'm not worthy of anything. One of my spiritual directors once, Michael said to me, shame is I am a bad person, whereas guilt is I did a bad thing. And so it's important to distinguish between doing a bad thing and just being this kind of horrible person that is unworthy of God's love in any way. Part of that is reminding yourself of God's mercy, right? Look at some of the parables that Jesus tells the parable. The prodigal son who really doesn't deserve the Father's forgiveness, right, in Luke's gospel, but he gets it anyway. And so to remember that God is always freely giving us God's grace and God's mercy, you know, and sometimes we think, well, how can God be that merciful? Well, God's mercy is a lot more than our mercy, right? Thomas Merton described God as mercy within mercy within mercy. And so just remember that that merciful God is there and that sometimes can help you break free of that feeling unworthy.

[Maggie Van Dorn]

Yeah. And Mary Carr answers this question really beautifully as well. And I know she identifies as a black belt sinner, so she can definitely resonate with the experience of feeling selfish or unworthy from time to time. But she's also a really great model, I think, of someone who has become totally dependent on the mercy and love of God. So stay tuned for Mary Carr's answer. And if any of our listeners would like to ask Father Jim a question, you can write to us at the.

[Fr. Jim Martin]

Spiritual [e-mail] and now a word from our sponsor. Looking for a simple way to deepen your own spiritual life? Give Us this Day is a superb resource that helps Catholics stay rooted in both scripture and in prayer, wherever you are, no matter how busy you are. It features both reliable and relatable spiritual reflections, the daily readings, essays on the lives of the saints, and, of course, prayers to accompany you throughout the day. I'm honored to be an editorial advisor, and I've been writing a monthly essay called Teach Us to Pray from the very beginning, and I use it every single day. It's a great resource, and here's a great offer. Right now, listeners of the Spiritual Life can get 10% off their new print subscription. And I have to say, the booklets are beautiful. Just visit giveusthisday.org spiritual life and join our community of Catholics praying together again. That's giveasthisday.org spirituallife. And now onto our conversation with our favorite black belt sinner, Mary Carr.

[Mary Carr]

Ready, ready, steady, go.

[Fr. Jim Martin]

So welcome, Mary Carr.

[Mary Carr]

Thanks, Father Jim. I'm so glad to be here with you guys. Thanks for having me. I'm here to show what a sinner looks like.

[Fr. Jim Martin]

Well, I think Maggie and I can do a good job of that, too.

[Maggie Van Dorn]

Yeah, we got that covered. Now, I think we should disclose something from the jump.

[Fr. Jim Martin]

Yes. Full disclosure. I am Mary Carr's spiritual director, so probably breaking all sorts of boundaries do not turn me into the spiritual direction police. So I'm gonna be asking questions that I know you know the answer to. What's Mary's prayer life like? But we' certainly not divulge anything that has come up in our spiritual direction sessions.

[Mary Carr]

But you can. I mean, as you know, my life's an open book.

[Fr. Jim Martin]

I will let you do that, though. Wonderful to have you.

[Mary Carr]

So great to be here.

[Maggie Van Dorn]

How did you both meet?

[Mary Carr]

Well, I was a big fan of Jim, Father Jim, before I met him. And I especially liked the Jesuit guide to Practically Everything.

[Fr. Jim Martin]

Almost everything.

[Mary Carr]

Almost everything.

[Fr. Jim Martin]

Thank you.

[Mary Carr]

The Jesuit guide to Almost everything. I had done the spiritual exercises of St. Ignatius, which are. They're what Jesuits do over 30 days and lay people can do over 30 weeks. So it's a certain kind of spirituality I'd taken instruction in twice before I met Jim. So I was already parting Jesuit. Yeah. And I moved to New York, and I was doing a charity event for Busted Halo, which was a young person's radio program at the time. And we had mutual friends at that church there on the west side near where you live.

[Fr. Jim Martin]

St. Paul the Apostle.

[Mary Carr]

St. Paul the Apostle. And I fangirled when I met him, I think I must have rushed up like people do when they see Mick Jagger.

[Fr. Jim Martin]

Well, I remember because I was such a fan of yours. And I thought, wow, Mary Carr is coming up to see me. That's pretty great.

[Mary Carr]

Really?

[Fr. Jim Martin]

Yeah. I knew you and respected you and I thought, wow, this is. I'm pretty. I'm pretty humbled again. I felt like the visitation, you know, who am I that Mary Carr should come and see me?

[Mary Carr]

Yeah, not exactly.

[Fr. Jim Martin]

Well, let me ask you a question. So since you brought it up, talk about the experience of doing the spiritual exercises. So you described it to our listeners as essentially entering into the life of Christ imaginatively. And the spiritual exercises in daily life is how people do it outside a retreat house. And you sort of go through the life of Christ and you imagine yourself in the scene. What was that like for you?

[Mary Carr]

Well, I've got to say I had just converted to Catholicism and I've said it before that I didn't grow up Catholic. I grew up, everybody was agnostic. And I was so not Catholic. I was so not Christian in the Bible Belt in East Texas that when I was a little girl, I thought everybody was kidding about belief. So it was to say I was agnostic is like, you know, I was really pagan. I wasn't a pagan, I was a savage. I was completely outside the ken. So I had become Catholic, really. My son had led me to want to go to church. He said, I want to go to church. And I said, why? And he said, I want to see if God's there.

[Maggie Van Dorn]

Such a great question.

[Mary Carr]

When he was about 7, I was divorced from his dad, who'd moved away. And it was kind of the only sentence he could have said that would have got me to get up and start calling people. But I never dreamed I would become Catholic. I had no intention. We undertook this sort of years, long about 18 month, 2 years long thing we called God O Rama, where anybody who had any kind of spiritual practice or community they belonged to, we would go with it. So we went to Episcopal Church, we went to Southern Baptist, went to ame, we went to Conservative Temple, we went to a zendo, we went to all these sort of different places. And there was this priest, Father Joseph Cain, who was just incredibly humble and kind of an amazing human being. And I, nobody else could have gotten me to convert, but he and my kid, I think they double teamed me.

[Fr. Jim Martin]

And where were you at this point?

[Mary Carr]

We were living in Syracuse.

[Fr. Jim Martin]

And you're a professor?

[Mary Carr]

I'm a writer, a memoirist and a poet and a professor at Syracuse University, where I've been since, I don't know, 91 forever.

[Fr. Jim Martin]

So you're a professor? There and you're with your child. And what was it that made you take the leap?

[Mary Carr]

It was very simple. People always imagine it involves doctrine or, like, making some decision. I went to Mass to all these different churches. Kind of the way I took him to soccer, which I didn't like either. I just went, you know, And Father Joe really impressed me. I remember the first Mass. We went to a writer named Tobias Wolf, who'd later be my godfather. He and his family brought us, and it was all saints. And all the kids were all lined up and he gathered them into the church. They would stand up and they would say, I am. They were dressed as saints. You know, I am St. George and I slay the dragon. And, you know, they dressed up as different saints. And then he gathered them and he was trying to talk to them. I didn't know what he was trying to talk to them about at the time, but it turned out he was trying to talk to them about Mary, about how Jesus wanted Mary to be everybody's mother because she was so great. So he was saying, do any of you have pets? And they were saying, yes, you know, I have a dog, I have a cat, I have a lizard, whatever. And one little boy said, I have a worm. And he was just so curious about this that he just started talking to the kid about the worm and what his relationship was like. And there was something so true. He was, like, incapable of feigning anything. And he was not, you know, I'm a big. This big intellectual life, you know, blah, blah, blah, whatever. I'm a writer. And Father Joe was a simple Irish parish priest. I remember when I did the Ignatian Exercises, I said, have you never done them, Father Joe? He said, oh, I couldn't do all that reading. And, oh, no, that's not for me. You know, the reason I became Catholic is because when I walked in a mass, and this is my own kind of screwed up nature trauma in my background, whatever it is, I looked at everybody sitting there and I kind of conceived a hatred for everybody. I guess I had an idea of what being Catholic was or what going to church was. And I just. I just. I sat in the back row while Deb was in Sunday school and graded papers.

[Fr. Jim Martin]

You hated them because they were Catholic or because you thought, oh, they think they're so holy, or that's sort of what I thought.

[Mary Carr]

I mean, I sort of hated anybody religious, but I felt like, my son's going to Sunday school somewhere. I should go and listen to what the heck they're saying. But honestly, I would bring a stack of papers and sit in the back pew and grade papers. But I noticed that I walked into Mass with this antipathy towards all these people. And when I walked out, I loved them. And I remember the first Mass I went to when they started calling out their intentions, you know, saying, my son's been sent to Afghanistan, or my mother's having a heart attack, or, my husband just died. And just to be in community, to hear people call out the ways they were suffering and to hear everybody say, lord have mercy, or, lord, hear our prayer, I just start crying. I just couldn't stop crying. And when I walked out, I loved everybody. And it was so strange. There was a guy there who had been a Jesuit and who had left the priesthood to Mary, and his wife had been a nun. And I was talking to them saying, you know, I don't even. You know, I just don't even like Jesus. I mean, it's just. I'm doing this for my son. You know, I. I said, but I really loved. I started crying when they said this, and I was just amazed that nobody judged me, that I could just say what I thought.

[Fr. Jim Martin]

For me, the interesting thing in this is how unique that call story is. You have this attraction to this priest out of his humility and his authenticity. You had this, I would call, sort of mystical moment in church, where you are.

[Mary Carr]

I had it over and over.

[Fr. Jim Martin]

Yeah. Where you are, in a sense, you fall in love with the people you're with. You have interactions with people who make you want to be Catholic. At some point, you go through the. What we call the Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults, which is kind of like the sort of teaching you how to be Catholic. How did that go?

[Mary Carr]

Well, okay. So I didn't say I was going to convert, but my son was taking instruction, so I thought I should take instruction. But when I signed up to take what they call rcia, the, you know, Catholic instruction, I never said I was going to be baptized. I said to Father Joe, I'll sign up to take it, but I don't know if I'm going to jump over the broom, you know, when it gets to be Holy Saturday. But Deb's doing it. He says, well, I still remember what he said to me. I can see him. It was after Mass one day. He says, look, run all you want. God's after you. He says, you can run all you want. Okay? You don't have to. You don't have to take Communion. Do whatever you want to do. So I signed up to take rcia. And then I published this book and this. My first memoir, which is called the Liars Club, which, you know, nobody thought I was going to sell any books, but I was like. It became this whole thing. And I was on the road and I was doing interviews, and I was in all these newspapers, I was on tv, blah, blah, blah, whatever. Suddenly I was solvent. I could buy, like, a used Toyota, you know, it was a miracle. So I missed all these weeks of instruction. So the woman who was doing the instruction since gone to live with Jesus came up to me and said, well, you can't take communion because you've missed too much from being out of town. I said, wait a minute. You're going to deny me the sacrament of baptism and communion and the Eucharist because I have a job that I have to support my kid with. I said, okay. All right. Oh, well, meanwhile, I'd been reading all this. I was reading Holland Kung, who's this big theologian. You know, I'm somebody who reads things when they're confused. And I joined the Peace and Social Justice Committee, and I made Advent wreaths with the kids. And, you know, I was just part of the community.

[Fr. Jim Martin]

Yeah, it sounds like you're already part of the community.

[Mary Carr]

I was. Yeah. So. So Father Joe told her, mary's read more theology than I have. And she, you know, and she said, well, she has to be part of the community. And he says, well, she's been coming here for two years, you know, every Sunday and, you know, participates in everything, and her son's going to be baptized anyway. So Father Joe said, look, why don't you just talk to Toby, Tobias Wolf, every now and then about prayer and about your conversion, about the Gospels, and we'll just baptize you. I said, I love it, but even up until Holy Saturday, I didn't know that I would be baptized.

[Fr. Jim Martin]

Really? Because they weren't telling you if that was going to happen or not.

[Mary Carr]

I wasn't sure.

[Fr. Jim Martin]

You weren't sure. I see. What was the doubt?

[Mary Carr]

Well, really, a lot of stuff having to do with doctrine and hierarchy and, you know, nothing that. I mean, what people imagine about the Catholic Church or about maybe any church, because I. I had no experience with any other church, so what do I know? In a way, it was good because I would just say things like, I don't even like Jesus. You know, like, he just. And this former priest said to me, why, like, what's not to like about Jesus? He's like. I said, my idea of hell is somebody like, on the cross going, look what I did for you. And I just think, who ask you, you know, but nobody ever yelled at me when I said stuff like that. Everybody was just like, wow, it's an interesting perspective. You're really out there. But people just let me keep coming to Mass.

[Fr. Jim Martin]

Sounds like a great community.

[Mary Carr]

It was.

[Fr. Jim Martin]

I mean, so you have this priest who is an advocate for you, and you have a community that welcomes you and allows you to have your doubts and think about things. And so how far before Holy Saturday or before the Easter vigil did you decide?

[Mary Carr]

Well, I sort of decided I was going to do it. And then there was a problem because my best friend at the time was a woman who ran a halfway house in Boston where I'd gotten sober and where I volunteered. She was disabled. She was never able to have her own children, and she was taking care. They had a big disabled community in this halfway house. So she was a really kind of an amazing woman, a charitable woman. And I wanted her to be Deb's godmother. Well, I had Toby Wolf to be my godfather, but I wanted her to be my godmother. So right before Holy Saturday, maybe a week or so before Father Joe came in, and you're supposed to sign all this stuff, do you believe? You know, we believe we know what the. You know. I said, joe, I'm going to lay it out for you right here. I don't believe the Pope is the ultimate religious authority. I don't even know who Jesus is. I've got no idea. I'm liking him a lot more since I've been reading the Gospel and coming the way I was reading him, it just had a lot of barnacles on it from the mean girls who made fun of me because we were a drunken, creepy family. And so you project all this stuff onto this. And so he said, well, you understand that Deb can be on the altar with us, but she can't take the Eucharist? No, he didn't tell me that. Then I lied to him. I lied to his face. I looked in his face and I lied to him. And I said, oh, is she Catholic? I said, yes, she's Catholic. And then I got in my car and I was just like, stupid, stupid, stupid. I was just banging the steering wheel. And I got home, which was only a few blocks from church. I call the rectory, and Joe answers the phone. I said, look, I lied to you today. I lied right to your face. I'm really sorry. It's not the kind of person I want to Be. I feel awful about it. He says, oh, that's okay. Who is this?

[Fr. Jim Martin]

You know, it sounds like he was the person you needed him to be to bring you in.

[Mary Carr]

He just. He was so amazing. And he said, well, just so you know, she can't take the Eucharist. I said, okay, Joe, I know you don't make the rules. I'm going to tell you right here, right now, I don't think it's right that women can't be priests. You know, if Mary and the mother of Jesus were at the cross and those rat apostles were like, hiding, you know, except for John, you know, they can't be priests. I don't like it. I don't like the Pope. I don't like the real estate. You know, I don't like the whole. There's a lot of stuff about this that I'm just not buying. I don't know. He said, well, maybe you will someday.

[Fr. Jim Martin]

That's a great response. And also, there are a lot of Catholics who, you know, who do struggle with some of those things.

[Mary Carr]

Here's the interesting thing, and this is why Father Joe is so amazing to me. So he told me, he said, you know, your friend can't have the Eucharist. And I said, well, I just want to say, do you think Jesus would cut up a bunch of bread and someone's standing there and not say, hey, you want a bite of this? Hey, you want a hunk of this? And who needs it more than somebody unbaptized or somebody who's not? Anyway, he said, I'm sure the Holy Father prays about that a lot, was what he said. He didn't argue with me. So on the altar, he offered Deb the Eucharist and she refused. But I thought he had forgotten the big fight we had. I thought he just didn't remember. She wasn't Catholic, but knowing him as I knew him until he died, I don't think that's the case. I think he had a moment of what we call informed conscience, where the Holy Spirit guided him in the moment to act against doctrine. Something I never saw him do.

[Fr. Jim Martin]

So a very welcoming priest.

[Mary Carr]

Yes.

[Fr. Jim Martin]

We're going to pause for a short break, but we'll be back in a minute. How has your life changed since becoming Catholic?

[Mary Carr]

Oh, my goodness, I'm rich, I'm good looking.

[Fr. Jim Martin]

That's right, that's right.

[Mary Carr]

Well, as Deb said that night where I said, well, did you feel like God was there? He said, of course God was there. And now we're in this big family. And as a single mother, it was so gratifying to hear that. And then my friend John got me to do these spiritual exercises, which, as Jim has described them, it's a bunch of different methods of prayer, like ways of praying, as you guys know.

[Fr. Jim Martin]

Let me ask you, what was your experience of coming to know Jesus in the exercises? And can you describe for our listeners a little bit about what that Ignatian contemplation is? You know, imagining yourself in the scene and how that affected you?

[Mary Carr]

Well, first off, one of the main methods of prayer is this imaginative prayer where you ask the Holy Spirit to put you in the scene of whatever gospel you're studying. You read through the course of Jesus life chronologically each week, so you're getting to know him from the Annunciation through the Resurrection and et cetera, et cetera. So I had a really hard time imagining anything. I had Father Joe Neville, another great Jesuit priest, but I also had a wonderful Franciscan nun named Sister Maurice, who, as she said, she had a disordered attachment to Oreos.

[Fr. Jim Martin]

She kept a very Jesuit.

[Mary Carr]

She kept a big sleeve of Oreos. When you would go in and have spiritual direction with you, you'd always eat a couple of Oreos while you were sitting there. And Sister Maurice really was patient with me. And I know a priest who has a great line where somebody said, but, Father, I'm not very imaginative. I don't know if you want to say what you said to her.

[Fr. Jim Martin]

Yeah. So a sister came to me on retreat and she said more or less the same thing, that I have no imagination. And, you know, I've heard that a lot on retreats. So I can't do this imaginative prayer. And I remember this was just an inspiration from the Holy Spirit. And I thought, well, I said, you must have an imagination. And she said, I don't know if I've told you this part. No. My spiritual director told me I didn't have an imagination. Right. And that I should not bother or try to pray in that way, which I thought was very kind of limiting. And, you know, this is, you know, religious to a religious. So I felt kind of comfortable saying this. I said, sister, you have no imagination. She said, no, I have none. And I said, have you ever once had a sexual fantasy in your entire life? And she threw her head back and started to laugh, laugh and laugh and laugh. It was this great release. And I said, I guess you do have an imagination. And I said, now go out and sit on the bench out there and just talk to Jesus. Imagine yourself Next to Jesus, talking with him. And she came back and she said, we made up for a lot of lost time. It was really powerful. But how did you deal with this lack of imagination, so called?

[Mary Carr]

First off, I realized that if I just let go and let the Holy Spirit put me in the scene, that I would be in the scene, but I didn't know. So like very early, like in the Nativity, I was one of the animals. Like, I had a little bin that I was eating out of. And like, there's all this light and everybody's making a big deal out of this stupid baby. But it was also almost like feeling that thing. I felt en masse that there was a sense. We all have these feelings all the time, you know. And one of the things, the practice of Ignatian spirituality where, you know, in the evening or I usually do it late afternoon because I'm just such a lard butt, by the end of the night, I'm just exhausted. I'm just bleh. But late afternoon, I look through the past 24 hours from like 4 or 5 in the afternoon to 4 or 5, and I try to see those places where God was present in my life. And I'm not a naturally very nice or grateful kind of person, you know, I'm really not. I just didn't grow up that way. I grew up kind of tough. And I just realized there were all these so many times in the day, these very small interactions or conversation with somebody on the street or in a store or, you know, my son's grown. I'm a grandmother, I babysit, but I live by myself. And so, so many times in the course of my day, I'm very moved by the fact that I'm alive or I'll just see somebody face, just really, you know, look at another person's face. On the subway, there's a woman who thought I was trying to keep her from getting her stroller on the subway. And she kind of bumped me, you know, like she was mad. And I stepped out of the way. I said, I'm so sorry. And I helped her pull the thing. And I said, I'm so sorry. I'm always in the way. I can't stop myself. I said, boy, you had to carry that down the stairs. And she just looked at me with such like, thank you.

[Maggie Van Dorn]

Thanks for seeing me.

[Mary Carr]

Like, you saw that. You see that stroller and you know what it takes to get it down.

[Fr. Jim Martin]

Well, and it's interesting. You're seeing her and you're also seeing where God is present in your life and this end of the day, what we call the examination of conscience. But I do want to get back to the experience of the exercises and Jesus. You were talking about being in the nativity scene, and earlier you said I didn't much like Jesus. Can you describe the Jesus you met in the exercises?

[Mary Carr]

You know, first off, I mean, the first time I did him, I never saw his face. At the very end, at the crucifixion, I saw his feet, but I never saw his face, you know, so it's as I've done this many times, it's become richer, a richer and richer experience. So he was charismatic. I mean, when he called those fishermen, you know, I mean, just try to imagine just these blue collar guys, you know, driving a cab or something and they're parked at a light and somebody comes up and pokes his head in the window and says, hey, you know, follow me. We're going to catch a bunch of people, you know, we're not going to give anybody rides anymore. We're going to do another thing. So I saw how other people responded to him. And even if you don't believe any of the metaphysical or magic stuff related to our faith, I remember thinking right after I converted, what are the odds that a first century Jewish peasant would still be talked about? All these other religions, they were a prince or they were, you know, I mean, he's supposedly descended from the house of David, et cetera, et cetera. But what an odd person. And his humility and his. Well, the love I felt loved. And I also had a really spooky magic experience.

[Fr. Jim Martin]

Let's hear it.

[Mary Carr]

Okay, I've written about this. I have a book about my conversion, all this called lit, that sort of tells the whole story, my being drunk and blah, blah, blah, and then becoming this crazy Catholic. But I had gone down. My mother was still alive. And my mother, while a beautiful, very smart, very interesting woman, stood over me and my sister with a butcher knife, you know, when we were children and drank and was a complicated person. And while she gave us a lot of things in this little small town, it was a very. It was scary. She could be scary. So I was moving my mother. So during the period of Lent, we're supposed to pray to know. And just brace yourselves, everybody out there, if you think Catholics are crazy now, just like grab, grab the sides of your seat. You're supposed to pray to know your sinfulness in all its ugliness. And my friend John, who had done the exercises before and was like a prayer guide who was like assisting in this, told me that I had these really spooky experiences. So I'd flown down from New York. Sister Marise had given me these three prayers to pray. It was during Lent and I'm praying every day to know my sinfulness and all its ugliness. And I am cleaning out the house I grew up in. And my sister had moved my mother into an apartment in Houston. So I'm down in our hometown by myself cleaning out this house these friends of mine came from to help me. And you know, it was amazing that I was able to get it done. Anyway, so I'm feeling very pious about, like what a great person I am for doing this. But I had left my Bible on the airplane. So I get to my mother's house and my mother, by this time she's been sober 12, 13 years. She's almost 80 years old. She's not long for this world. And I come in and she is like the angel of death. I mean, she's like the mother who terrified me when I was a child. She ran at me and said, you have. You and your sister have raped me. You have torn me out of my only home. You've dragged me to this God forsaken place. And she's screaming and yelling and I turn and I just say the worst possible things. I just say, you could talk to me like that. When I was a child, I didn't have any car keys. I didn't have any credit cards. But you know why you didn't paint any pictures? Because you didn't want to be a painter. Because you didn't have the guts to do it. And you're trying to punish me and Lisa for how you're disappointed in your. Anyway, I just went at her and she was crying. This little bent over just moved to her little white haired. You wanted to see your sinfulness and all its ugliness. You know, I'm tearing up now as I talk about it. It was not pretty, but I was like, wow, careful what you pray for.

[Fr. Jim Martin]

Well, I'm tearing up too. I mean, that's quite a story as you describe it. And it is, you know, we do get those grace. That is in a sense, I mean, obviously not what you were saying.

[Mary Carr]

It's my sinfulness.

[Fr. Jim Martin]

But the recognition of your own sinfulness is a grace and that is something we pray for. It's during the first week of the spiritual exercises. And that leads to just so people, you know, understand the progress. It does lead to a sense of yourself as a sinner. But also someone who's loved because God loves you anyway.

[Mary Carr]

But the interesting thing that happened was that after that, I had this horrible. I used to have wake up screaming for most of my childhood and usually a couple times a week. And anyway, I went to therapy. I got sober. A lot of good things have happened. Maybe it happens if I'm exhausted, I'm traveling, I wake up screaming in a. In a hotel room or something. I mean, in a new place. But it's not a common thing. I'd sort of been healed a lot. So I had this night terror where I sat up and I looked at the headboard. And where we grew up, there were a lot of snakes, water moccasins, rattlesnakes, East Texas swamp. And these snakes were leaping out of the headboard, like at my face. So I got up and I didn't have my Bible. I had these readings that I was going to do, supposed to do. So my mother's books are there. They're all boxed up. So I look around and I find her childhood Bible. She was born in 1922. And I go to the first reading, and I look and it's marked in blue chalk. Very first readings marked in blue chalk. I thought, wow, that's a coincidence. And then I'd go to the second reading, which happened to be Psalm 51, the hanging Psalm. You know, cleanse me with hyssop, wash me and I will be whiter than snow. Take away my old heart and give me a new heart. It was one of my favorite psalms, and that was marked in blue chalk. There was one other reading from Paul that I'd been given. It wasn't marked in blue chalk, but there was nothing else marked in the Bible.

[Fr. Jim Martin]

Wow.

[Mary Carr]

So my sister, who was a mathematician, a physicist, I remember calling her the next morning, saying, what are the odds of this? That two out of three. She said, three out of three would have been better.

[Fr. Jim Martin]

Well, God doesn't want to be too on the nose with these things.

[Mary Carr]

Exactly right. But I mean, when I write about it, I say, it's not like the bullet comes in the front of your helmet and goes out the back and you're fine. But I had apologized my mother before I'd gone to bed the night before. I got up in the morning, I brought her breakfast. I brought her this Bible and showed her my readings. She said, I knew we were supposed to be together all along.

[Fr. Jim Martin]

That's so beautiful. What a beautiful story. Well. And look, sometimes God, as I think I've said to you in direction, sometimes God Hits us over the head with a two by four. Sometimes God is very subtle and you have to look carefully and it's very. But sometimes it's just really obvious. And I think that, yeah, there are those moments that we have to treasure. I mean, I think, you know, for people who are listening, sometimes people think, oh, that didn't happen to me. Right, which is true. Those kinds of aha moments or two by four moments don't happen all the time, but when they do, it's important to pay attention to them.

[Mary Carr]

Well, you know, what Sister Marise told me was to write them down. Because, you know, there's this idea of balance and sacred indifference or being detached. It's almost. It kind of lines up with some Buddhist and Taoist kinds of things. So when you're in a state of consolation, you remember desolation. When you're in a state of desolation, you remember consolation. So I write them down.

[Fr. Jim Martin]

I want to underline something you said, which I think is super important, which is that when we have these moments of what Ignatius calls consolation, which is a sense of God's presence very near, we store them up like a squirrel stores up nuts for winter for those moments of desolation. Because those kind of ups and downs and those dry periods and those sort of rich periods, it's very common.

[Mary Carr]

You've seen me. I mean, I had a really hard day yesterday. I mean, I had a desolate evening, I've got to say. Desolate. A friend of mine FaceTimed me in the middle of it and said, what's the matter? And I just said, oh, I'm fine. You know, I'll talk to you tomorrow, you know, whatever. But it's the whole range of human experience, right? If you. I think it's Brene Brown who has a thing like, if you're never scared, you can't be brave.

[Fr. Jim Martin]

Well, let me ask you. So with the benefit of your Catholicism and your multiple times doing the spiritual exercises and knowing God, what is the place of sin in your life and how do you. How do you deal with it?

[Mary Carr]

What do you mean? Place of sin?

[Fr. Jim Martin]

Meaning, like when you feel tempted, what do you do to resist that? And also when you have done it, you told that story about your mom, which is really beautiful. When you. We all do. We're all sinful. When you sin, what's your response to it?

[Mary Carr]

Well, you know, I've got to say, getting sober, you know, there are places you could, you know, you can. Any idiot who has a problem with drugs or alcohol go to Any church basement. And there are people who pick you up and tote you and carry you, and you don't have to believe anything. So I had a habit from that of you're supposed to make amends if you are crummy to somebody. Every year I pray to be less judgmental, and in fact, every year I am less judgmental. But I am still. It's a good thing I don't have lightning bolts I can throw because, you know, I have a sharp tongue. You know, I always say the Catholic Church worries so much about the area between my knees and my waist, and that's not really where I do the worst things.

[Fr. Jim Martin]

Well, let me ask you something that I'm sure listeners are wondering. How do you become less judgmental or what enabled you to become less judgmental?

[Mary Carr]

A lot of prayer. If I really resent somebody like I do now, I pray for them. I pray for them. I try to imagine their face, and I try to soften my heart, and I pray for them. And interestingly, how I feel about the person changes. It doesn't mean that, like, I become their best friend or anything. It's often they're people I don't want to be friends with. I always try to see my part in it.

[Fr. Jim Martin]

In a sense, you're seeing them the way God sees them.

[Mary Carr]

But it's also, I am the recipient of that largesse. When I sin, you know, that I do feel loved by God. I feel like when I was a little girl, I felt like I should have been an abortion. I mean, that's not. You know, I tried to kill myself when I was about, I don't know, seven. And a lot of bad things going on. Plenty of people have way worse. But I was just very sensitive kid. And I feel like if the anger and the judgment was good for me, but I look at myself through the same eye I look at other people.

[Fr. Jim Martin]

Sure, if you're hard on yourself, you're hard on yourself.

[Mary Carr]

You're hard on everybody else.

[Maggie Van Dorn]

I think you've been offering this very vivid, intimate portrait of what sin can feel like and what it can do to us. And yet I know that there's gonna be people listening for whom the term sin has gone out of fashion. Right. Or they'll bristle because it feels like a religious institution condemning or judging.

[Mary Carr]

Yeah, it's like the mean assistant principal hitting you with a ruler. And what I was told, that it's not breaking a rule, but it's turning away from grace. It's turning away from a place of peace and Love.

[Fr. Jim Martin]

I agree. And I think that when we hear ourselves described as sinners, we have to remember the love sinners part. And it does. You're right, Maggie. It feels very. Oh, you're sinful, you're sinners, sinners in the hands of an angry God. That Jonathan Edwards.

[Mary Carr]

Very puritanical.

[Fr. Jim Martin]

Yeah, but really it means we're all human. We fail, we make mistakes. I do selfish things, I snap at people, I'm prideful. So it's really a kind of realistic look at ourselves. Right, it's realistic. And I know that that word has a lot of baggage and it is. It's a turning away from God's invitation to be good and be loving and.

[Mary Carr]

Be charitable, but also to be happy.

[Fr. Jim Martin]

And happy. Right. Because ultimately it leads us to being miserable. But the other way I like to look at it is I think the way that it is framed in the Old Testament, which is sin is missing the mark. Right. So we have a, you know, in a sense like a bullseye.

[Mary Carr]

That makes me crazy too.

[Fr. Jim Martin]

Why?

[Mary Carr]

I just, you know, it's just hard enough that you gotta get it right in the right spot.

[Fr. Jim Martin]

No, I guess, yeah, I guess I meant it's more like it's an acknowledgement that we're trying to do our best. We miss the mark a little bit. I mean, for me, I think I'm trying to do my best.

[Mary Carr]

You're trying to do it. No, you're right.

[Fr. Jim Martin]

I mean, if you're really seriously turning away from God and saying the heck with this, but I think most are trying to be good.

[Mary Carr]

Oh, no, no, no, no, of course they are. And I think, you know, I have a Pilates teacher I always call Pilates Jesus because they're a non binary person and they kind of look like Jesus and Pilates Jesus talked to me about just softness, that the way I grew up. And I have a big warrior, like I'm spring loaded on a lot of this stuff. And so for me, the softer I can be, it gives me space between the urge and the action, or between the urge and the speech and that softness or that sense of. A lot of my prayer in the morning is just being held by God. I didn't tell you about my big spiritual experience.

[Fr. Jim Martin]

Go ahead.

[Mary Carr]

Well, I got invited to the Vatican. You didn't know this? No, I was at the Vatican a couple times for work related things, if you can believe that. I got invited because they had a bunch of poets there at the Vatican, but they weren't all Catholic poets. They were all different kinds of people. There's this wonderful poet there, Hugo Mujica, born in Cuba, became a Trappist, now a diocesan priest in Brazil. Anyway, great poet, wonderful human being. Him and this guy from Israel, a poet named Amir Oz. We were like, best friends. Anyway, so we go to Assisi. We go to all the. There's that church in Rome where Francis used to stay. We gave this big poetry reading. It was just all these people who read our silly poems. And then they took the poets and they took us up to this room where St. Francis used to sleep. It was like an attic, just carved out of brick. And there was a hole, like you would slide a corpse in. Like, it was, like, in the morgue, where you put. Like, that's where he used to sleep. But anyway, everybody was just sort of standing there. I was like, yeah, whatever. I'm tired. I want to go home. And the priest who was telling us about the room looked at me, not to anybody else, and said, do you want to touch where you used to sleep? And there was, like. Had this grate over it. And I said, yes, I do. And I went over and I touched it, and it was. Something shocking happened to me, like I've never had happen to me. It was one of those moments, but it was totally out of the blue. I wasn't praying. I wasn't feeling whole. I mean, I was curious, and I was interested. And I turn around and I look at Mojica, and I've got tears coming down my face. And he said, did you feel that?

[Fr. Jim Martin]

Wow.

[Mary Carr]

It was just a spirit, a profound sense of the love of God, of gratitude for the life of Francis. It was like I got hit by something. It's beautiful, but it was like a wind blew through me or something. And it was so weird that it scared me. It was so big that I couldn't talk, and I was just, like, kind of messed up. Was scary.

[Fr. Jim Martin]

It can be. Rudolph Otto, I think, talks about the mysterium tremendum et fascinans, the mystery that frightens us and fascinates us. And it is. I mean, when you have an experience like that, it can be overwhelming because you don't know where it comes from and you don't know where it goes.

[Mary Carr]

And I was outside the edges of my body. That's how it felt. It felt like there was this bright light, and it was bigger than I was, but it went through me somehow, and it was really, like, big. That was. The sense of. It was this. Just that it was a big thing.

[Fr. Jim Martin]

Beautiful. What a grace.

[Maggie Van Dorn]

So can I ask this question.

[Fr. Jim Martin]

Audience question, please.

[Mary Carr]

Audience question, please.

[Maggie Van Dorn]

Audience question. And it does tie in quite well to this conversation we've been having about sin. This question comes from Michael. As a sinner who makes selfish choices, I always feel so keenly unworthy. How do I break free of this?

[Mary Carr]

Well, I'll say what my spiritual director would say.

[Maggie Van Dorn]

It's a two for one.

[Mary Carr]

It's a twofer. It's. First off, Michael, I'm so sorry. I hear somebody who's being hard on himself. I make selfish choices all the time. I mean, I sit there with a thing of Haagen Dazs and eat the whole thing. I buy clothes, you know, when I should sell them and give them my money to the poor. And I'm not going to do that. So I think that there are impulses that are from God and from the Holy Spirit and are what they call scruples, right, where we're asked to sort of examine our conscience. But I also think there are forces of evil in the world. And I don't think. I mean, I call it the adversary because I don't want to use the big capital D D word, but I think there's evil in the world and that, as John Milton described in Paradise Lost, that there's someone stalking the edge of the universe, seeking to ruin souls. And in a weird way, when I do something like that, I do something really simple like pray Hail Mary. But also, I talk to a lot of women trying to get sober. I also say, have you eaten? When was the last time you slept? Have you been alone? Would you like a cup of tea?

[Fr. Jim Martin]

Yeah.

[Mary Carr]

Could you take a hot bath tonight? You know, could you light a candle? That smells good. Crack open an orange or something? But that those simple things that get your mind back where your body is. Because for me, it's all north of my neck. All the trouble is up here, right?

[Fr. Jim Martin]

Look, that's a lifetime journey, Michael. And I just want to thank you for that. And it's something that everyone deals with. And I do think, though, that we were talking before about shame. One of my directors used to say that guilt is I've done a bad thing. Shame is I am a bad person. And so it's important to distinguish between those two things. But thanks, Michael.

[Mary Carr]

That's so beautiful, Jim.

[Fr. Jim Martin]

That's true.

[Mary Carr]

You should go into spiritual direction.

[Fr. Jim Martin]

How about that? So, Miracart, thank you so much for sharing so much of your life, your prayer and, you know, really those beautiful spiritual experiences that are so personal and so unique and really so Revelatory of how much God loves you. So thanks so much.

[Mary Carr]

Thank you, guys. Thank you guys for having me here. And thanks, Jim. And if you, any of you out there, are worried about the state of my soul, please write to Father James Martin and complain.

[Fr. Jim Martin]

Thank you, Mary.

[Mary Carr]

All right. God bless you all.

[Fr. Jim Martin]

Well, what a grace to listen to someone who is so honest and so open and so raw as she is in a lot of her writing.

[Maggie Van Dorn]

Yeah, I thought as I was listening to her that, you know, who better to give vivid accounts of the spiritual life than someone who has made a living recounting them in her memoirs? I mean, we really got the pleasure of listening to a memoirist talk about her relationship with God. And also the number of mystical experiences that Mary recounted. It was staggering. And yet I felt myself relating to them like they were happening in Mass. They were happening in her everyday life. And so I think this kind of begs the question, what is a mystical experience?

[Fr. Jim Martin]

Yeah, that's a great question. I'm really glad you brought that up, because I think sometimes we think that only someone like Mary Carr or some saint can have experiences like that. But there was an author named Ruth Burrows who talked about everyday mystical experiences. She has a book called Guidelines for Mystical Prayer. And her insight was that really everyone has these things, but as I think I've said before, not everyone is encouraged to talk about them. So really, a mystical experience is where you really feel, in a sense, overwhelmed by the presence or by the love of God in a way that goes beyond all words and all understanding. Or you have an experience that really defies description, and it's hard to put into words something like what Mary was talking about with her experience of the Mass. Right. Hating everyone and then suddenly loving them. And, you know, it's a slippery term. Right. Because I think a lot of people think mystical experiences mean having visions or hearing voices. But I really think about it. Someone described it once as being like a vase or a vase and, you know, having the water just kind of rise and rise and just sort of being overflowing. Right. Overflowing with love. So I think they are few and far between. I don't think people have mystical experiences every day. I mean, maybe some mystics do, but I think there are times when we really. We really feel overwhelmed by God's love in a way that we can't explain. That's how I would try to explain a mystical experience.

[Maggie Van Dorn]

And what should somebody do if they have that experience? Be it subtle or grand.

[Fr. Jim Martin]

Yeah, I would say enjoy it. First of all, See it as a gift from God. And then Ignatius would want me to say, then try to discern, what might this be inviting me to? Is it a deeper relationship with God? Is it trust? Is it simply a gift? I was saying the other night, that Jesuit told me once, if you handed a flower to Saint Ignatius, he would say, what is this supposed to mean? If you handed a flower to Francis of Assisi, he would say, thanks very much. So these things may just be gifts to help us deepen our faith in God. But I think sometimes to say, you know, what does this mean? Usually it's a sense, for example, of God's presence. You know, in Mary's case, it might just have been loving people more. Right. And seeing God and your fellow human being. But again, it's also. I don't want to try to define it, because sometimes it's beyond definition, but I would just say enjoy it, thank God for the grace, and maybe ask yourself, what might God be inviting me to look at here?

[Maggie Van Dorn]

Yeah. The other thing that was really noteworthy, for me at least, was that Mary Carr grew up in a really troubled household. You know, her mother was an alcoholic and a violent one at that. She, you know, talks about her mother standing over her and her sister with a butcher knife. And I think it's tempting to think that if one has trauma in their childhood or in their life, that this could be prevent them from a life of faith or connecting with God, that the trauma could really get in the way or impede their ability to do so, or maybe even make it harder for them to live in holiness. So how should we think about trauma from a spiritual point of view?

[Fr. Jim Martin]

Well, that's a really great question, and you really put it so well, because I think people really could say, well, maybe I'm prevented now, right, from experiencing God's grace. I mean, even though suffering is part of everyone's life. You know, when we look at Mary Carr's experience, we see someone who has been very honest about what she went through. Right. Now, certainly, I want to start off by saying that, you know, always going to see a psychologist or a psychiatrist to work through these things. Right. Not simply a spiritual director, but in the spiritual life, I think it's being honest about it. Right. In your prayer with your spiritual director, maybe writing, if you write, you know, sharing it with friends. I think St. Ignatius often says the evil spirit wants us to keep things hidden. Right? To sort of keep things hidden. As the Alcoholics Anonymous credo goes, you're only as sick as your secrets. Right? So I think bringing it out, right? Bringing it out and sort of bringing it into the open so it can be looked at, I think sharing it with God, right? Letting God heal you in whatever way God wants to heal you and continuing to trust that God wants to bring you out of that place of trauma and love you. I have to say I read a book recently that just came out called Boy Jesus. Now, you're going to think this is kind of off the topic, but the author was saying that Jesus himself, because he grew up in a very sort of violent time, there was a town nearby Nazareth called Sephorus that was burned to the ground by the Romans, that he might have had considerable trauma in his early life. Right. So I think I found that, Maggie, really beautiful because people who do have traumatic childhoods may be able to find in a sense, a companion with Jesus. I mean, he undergoes the greatest trauma on the cross, right, this violent death, but that his early life might have had some trauma as well. I mean, he's a refugee for a time. His family has to flee to Egypt. And so to see in the story of Jesus someone who understands you, right. And someone that you can rely on, you know, really share your. Your story, whatever it is, and however traumatic it might have been with someone who really fully understands you. So I'm really glad that Mary was able to speak so honestly with our listeners. Well, thanks, Maggie, so much for those questions. They're so helpful. Thank you, Mary Carr, of course, and thanks to our listeners. If you'd like to read a little bit more about this interview, go a little deeper and hear what I have to say about what Mary Carr has said. You can check out an article I've written by clicking the link in the show notes or by visiting americamagazine.org the Spiritual Life with Father James Martin is a production of America Media. It's produced by Maggie Van Doren and our executive producer, Sebastian Gomes. We recorded in the William J. Loshirt studio in New York City City with the production assistance of Kevin Christopher Robles, Grace Lenahan and Grace Copps. Our audio engineer is Noah Levinson. Adam Buckmuller edited the video of this episode which will be made available on America Media's YouTube channel. The theme score is courtesy of Teddy Abrams and Nate Farrington. You can follow me across social media@jamesmartinsj. Also, please help us grow the show by leaving a five star review on your favorite podcast platform. If you love the spiritual life, then we have even more to offer you on America magazine's website. Keep informed and inspired about our Catholic faith. Become a subscriber today@amera magazine.org subscribe or click the link in the show notes. Thanks so much and God bless you.

[Mary Carr]

Sa.