Praying with the Bible during Lent

Summary

Podcast Summary
Podcast: The Spiritual Life with Fr. James Martin, S.J.
Episode: Praying with the Bible during Lent
Date: February 17, 2026
Host: Fr. James Martin, S.J. (with producer Maggie Van Dorn)
Guest: Ben Witherington III (New Testament scholar, Professor at Asbury Theological Seminary)

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Overview

This episode delves into the intersection of prayer, Scripture, and the Lenten journey, featuring a conversation with renowned New Testament scholar Ben Witherington III. The discussion explores practical approaches to praying with the Bible, how to find freshness in familiar scripture passages, and profound personal experiences of faith and loss. It also touches on differences and common ground between Catholic and Protestant scriptural traditions during Lent, and offers spiritual wisdom for listeners seeking to deepen their faith and prayer life.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

Introductions, Background, and the Role of Scripture

• [00:50-02:06]
  • Fr. James Martin introduces Ben Witherington, recounting how he became familiar with his scholarship, which makes complex topics accessible.
  • Maggie Van Dorn details Ben’s credentials and contributions to understanding the historical Jesus, Paul, and the early Church.
  • The distinction between the historical Jesus and the Christ of faith is outlined as a key theme in biblical studies.

“We have four portraits of Jesus and no one portrait of Jesus would be adequate to really depict the magnificent things that Jesus said and did and who he was.”
– Ben Witherington [07:52]

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Lent’s Three Pillars: Prayer, Fasting, Almsgiving – Biblical Foundations

• [08:27-10:28]
  • Discussion on Lent’s spiritual practices:
    • Prayer: Clearly biblically based; modeled and taught by Jesus.
    • Fasting: Scriptural encouragement found in many Gospel passages.
    • Almsgiving: Linked to Paul’s collection for the Jerusalem church (1 Corinthians), as well as ongoing church tradition.
  • Witherington notes these practices were brought together in the Lenten season predominantly through monastic traditions.

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Ben Witherington’s Personal Spiritual Journey

• [10:28-18:06]
  • Raised as a “cradle Methodist” with both traditional and spontaneous prayer.
  • College years prompted deep questioning due to political unrest and church stances on issues like the Vietnam War.
  • A mystical personal experience: hearing his name audibly called when alone at college which reignited and personalized his faith:

    “I literally heard somebody say Ben. And I looked around. There was nobody there...I started praying and saying, Lord, if this is you, I'm here. Take me and show me the way.”
    – Ben Witherington [14:25-15:14]

  • This led to a deeper embrace of prayer as personal communication, not just recitations.

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Prayer Practice, Grief, and Scripture in Daily Life

• [18:06-24:39]
  • Witherington continues evening prayer traditions and participates in communal worship and Eucharist.
  • Prayer is also shaped by Bible meditation, letting scripture “start a conversation” with God.
  • Profound grief – the loss of his daughter Christie:
    • He processed via prayer and scriptural reflection, finding solace in Jairus’ daughter story (Mark 5), looking forward to reunion:

      “I look forward to the day when I hear Jesus say on the Day of Resurrection to my Christie, so I can hold her in my arms again. Now that's a prayer experience, you know, but it was prompted by the Scriptures.”
      – Ben Witherington [22:49]

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How God Speaks Through Scripture, and Approaching the Bible Freshly

• [25:19-33:17]

  • Listeners should approach Scripture with an open heart and mind for “fresh light,” quoting John Wesley.

  • Music and poetry, including the hymn “Be Thou My Vision” and George Herbert’s poem "Prayer," also lead him into deeper relationship and prayer.

    "It's the soul in paraphrase. That's what prayer is."
    – Ben Witherington (quoting Herbert) [28:24-29:56]

  • Advice for those unfamiliar with Scripture:

    • Start simple – Psalms, parables, familiar stories.
    • Example from grandfather’s Bible: Psalm 23 as a touchstone.

    “Start with passages that resonate with where they are...if you want your word to be winsome and you want to win some by being winsome, then come to passages that are entree level.”
    – Ben Witherington [31:28]

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Making Scripture Accessible and Overcoming Intimidation

• [33:53-34:56]
  • A study Bible with clear notes can demystify difficult passages.
  • Avoid overwhelming newcomers with technical commentaries.

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The Historical Bedrock of Christianity—Scripture’s Realism

• [34:56-41:24]

  • Christianity is a “historically founded religion.” Witherington shares archaeological stories from travels in Turkey (e.g., discovering an inscription for Sergius Paulus in Pisidian Antioch).

    “There is an irreducible amount of historical bedrock on which the Christian faith is based. It's not just a spiritual philosophy, it's a historical religion.”
    – Ben Witherington [35:43]

  • The reality of biblical places grounds faith in history for both scholars and lay pilgrims.

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Sola Scriptura – Its Meaning and Relevance for Catholics

• [41:24-43:47]
  • The phrase was used by medieval Catholic thinkers before the Protestant Reformation to reclaim Scripture’s primary authority over human hierarchy:

    “The people who came up with this phrase were all Catholics...What sola scriptura really means is that the primary source of authority for any Christian is the Bible.”
    – Ben Witherington [41:51]

  • Tradition, reason, and experience are important, but secondary to Scripture.
  • Acknowledgement that attitudes have shifted post-Vatican II; younger Catholics often engage more deeply with the Bible.

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Audience Questions: Finding Freshness in Familiar Mass Readings

• [46:55-48:06]
  • Question: "How do I hear the readings at Mass with freshness, when I've heard them many times before?"
    • Fr. Jim: Approach Scripture with trust, openness, and expectation for new insight. Recounts being surprised by an overlooked phrase in the “Rich Young Man” story (Mk 10:21).
    • Witherington: Suggests using different translations, especially Eugene Peterson’s paraphrase “The Message,” to gain "aha" moments and new perspective:

      “So many times his paraphrase gets right to the heart of what's being said. And you have an aha moment.”
      – Ben Witherington [47:11]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Prayer and Scripture:
  “I open the Bible and believe wholeheartedly. This is God's word. So he's got something to say to me if he wants to start a conversation with me, point me to the right passage, you know, and I will read it and I will reflect on it.”
  – Ben Witherington [18:33]

• On Loss and Hope:
  “My instant reply was, my daughter is not lost. I know right where to find her. She's with Jesus, period, you know.”
  – Ben Witherington [21:42]

• On Lent’s Traditions:
  "Are they biblically based? Well, yes...Connecting them specifically to Lent is not. That's something, so far as I can see, that first happens in the monasteries..."
  – Ben Witherington [08:43]

• On Reading Scripture with New Eyes:
  “You need to come with an open heart and an open mind and ask, what fresh light...will you bring forth for me today from your word?”
  – Ben Witherington [25:34]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Intro to Ben Witherington and Scripture Scholarship: [00:50–05:29]
• Lent’s Pillars & Biblical Practice: [05:48–10:28]
• Personal Testimony and Mystical Experience: [10:28–18:06]
• Grief, Prayer, and Scriptural Comfort: [21:19–24:39]
• Practical Approaches to Prayer with the Bible: [28:09–33:17]
• Making the Bible Approachable: [33:53–34:56]
• Archaeology and the Historical Reality of Scripture: [34:56–41:24]
• Sola Scriptura—Catholic and Protestant Perspectives: [41:24–43:47]
• Hearing Familiar Readings with Freshness: [46:55–48:06]

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Overall Tone and Takeaways

Warm, honest, and deeply informed, the conversation balances scholarly rigor with moving personal stories. Both Fr. Martin and Witherington encourage listeners:

• To approach prayer and scripture with childlike openness and curiosity,
• To use both heart and intellect,
• And to let the living word of God continually shape and deepen one’s experience and trust during Lent—and always.

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Useful Resources

• Eugene Peterson’s The Message – For fresh perspectives on Scripture.
• “When a Daughter Dies” by Ben Witherington – On processing grief through prayer.
• Sheldon Vanauken's A Severe Mercy and C.S. Lewis's A Grief Observed – Spiritual reflections on loss.

For further reading, visit: www.americamagazine.org/thespirituallife

Transcript

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[Ben Witherington]

And for me, that's one of the things that's helped me be a better prayer is listening to how other people who pray profoundly or write profoundly about prayer teach us what it really is. It's the soul, in paraphrase. That's what prayer is.

[Father Jim Martin]

Welcome to the spiritual life. I I'm Father Jim Martin. On this podcast, we reflect on how God is at work in people's daily lives and in their prayer. And I am joined by my wonderful producer, Maggie Van Dorn. Maggie, good to be with you.

[Maggie Van Dorn]

It's always good to be with you, Jim. And I know that we have a very exciting guest this week, someone that you have worked with before in your own writing and consultation, the great scripture scholar Ben Witherington.

[Father Jim Martin]

Yeah, I'm really excited to have him on. He's a Protestant scripture scholar. Maybe you could tell us a little bit more about him, Maggie Yeah, sure.

[Maggie Van Dorn]

So Ben Wetherington is a leading New Testament scholar, historian of early Christianity, and the Amos professor of New Testament for doctoral studies at Asbury Theological Seminary. Ben is a prolific author of more than 60 books, and his work bridges rigorous biblical scholarship and contemporary faith, with particular attention to the historical Jesus Christ, the historical Paul, and the social world of the early church. His latest books include Encounters with Paul and Sola Scriptura. Ben is widely respected for making complex scholarship accessible without compromising intellectual depth. Is that your experience as well of him? Jim?

[Father Jim Martin]

Absolutely. He's one of my favorite scripture scholars, and we had a funny kind of introduction to one another. We were both on a show, I think, that ran on CNN about Jesus. And, you know, they interview different people and you don't get to see the people that you're interviewing alongside until the show comes on. And he came on and I thought, who is this guy? This is really such a good explicator of the Bible. And then so I started to follow him and read some of his books. But the most interesting thing happened a couple of years ago. I was doing research on this book on Lazarus that I did called Come the Promise of Jesus Greatest Miracle. And I was out to dinner with a Fellow named Michael Peppard. He's a theology professor at Fordham, and we're talking about Lazarus. And he said, well, I'm sure, you know, as scholars often say that to.

[Maggie Van Dorn]

Be polite, of course you've read.

[Father Jim Martin]

Right, of course. Sure you've read that a lot of scripture scholars think that Lazarus might be the beloved disciple in John's Gospel. And I said, what?

[Ben Witherington]

Yeah.

[Maggie Van Dorn]

Cause I always thought the beloved disciple was John.

[Father Jim Martin]

Yeah. And there's lots of different candidates for that. There's John, there's Thomas. Right. There's some people even say it might be Mary Magdalene. And he said, you should read Ben Witherington. And I went right to Ben Witherington and started to do a deep dive into a lot of his works. And then when I was finished writing the book, I sent him the manuscript, and he was super helpful. So we become friends over email. And then I've met him once or twice. So really nice guy and really sort of a real strong believer, a real faithful guy. One of the other interesting things he does is he sometimes focuses on the historicity or the authenticity of the Gospels and of the Bible and things that people might say, well, that might be added on by the evangelist. He says, no, let me show you why this really did happen this way. So really just a really interesting scholar, and I'm really happy to have him on.

[Maggie Van Dorn]

I think also when we refer to the historicity of Jesus or Paul, it can be helpful to kind of articulate what is meant by that. And I don't know if it's fair to say a good contrast to that would be like the Christian of faith, you know, as we talked about with Richard Rohr, that you have the historical Jesus and then you have the Christ of faith. And of course, they are the same person. But that attention to the historical person can really yield a lot.

[Father Jim Martin]

Yeah. And that's why I'm always happy to speak with you, Maggie, who have an M. Div. You know your stuff. And, yeah, the Jesus of history and the Christ of faith are just two different approaches to looking at Jesus. When we talk about the historical Jesus, it's what can we know about Jesus, the man who walked the streets of Judea and Galilee? What do we think, you know, through scripture scholarship might be added a little bit, you know, from the evangelist, because, you know, clearly the evangelists are editing things. It's not exactly the same in each gospel, so how can we sort of sort that out? You know, Ben obviously believes in the Christ of faith. He's a Christian. But I would Say, really, He is one of the most, I would say, accessible explicators of the historical Jesus, as well as, as you said earlier, the historical Paul and the historical Gospel. So I find his scholarship really, really helpful in helping us understand, you know, who Jesus was and really. Which means we can understand better who Jesus is.

[Maggie Van Dorn]

Mm. It also comes at a fitting time because we are entering the season of Lent, and during this time, it is often recommended that we spend a little bit more time in prayer or with scriptures. And who better to do that with than the leading scripture scholar than Witherington?

[Father Jim Martin]

Yeah. And we're going to talk with him about using the Bible during Lent. But as you were saying, Maggie, it's really, you know, we look at the three pillars of Lent, prayer, fasting, and almsgiving. And I think part of the prayer really needs to be sort of entering more deeply into Scripture. It's a good time. Advent is another good time to do it, to really say to yourself, can I dive into scripture into a new way? You know, can I look at, for example, the daily readings. Right. In a new way and maybe just make a little more time for it? So when we're thinking about prayer in terms of prayer, fasting, and almsgiving, we can think about using scripture for our prayer.

[Maggie Van Dorn]

And that actually brings us to our audience question this week. This question comes from Robert, and he asks, how do I hear the readings at Mass with freshness when I've heard them many times before?

[Father Jim Martin]

Yeah, no, Maggie. And I pick out these questions, and I thought, oh, there's the perfect question to ask a Scripture scholar.

[Maggie Van Dorn]

Yep, that's right. So if you would like to ask Father Jim a question, you can write to us at the spiritual lifemericamedia.org and.

[Father Jim Martin]

Now onto our conversation with Ben Witherington II. So, Ben Witherington, welcome to the spiritual life.

[Ben Witherington]

It's good to be with you.

[Father Jim Martin]

We're so grateful to have you here, and there's so much we want to talk about. But, you know, Lent is upon us now. And as a biblical scholar, how can the Bible help us in this season in particular?

[Ben Witherington]

Well, I think there's several ways. One of which would be to reflect on the seven last words of Christ, which are bit by bit in all four Gospels, which, interestingly, are the same in Matthew and Mark, because it's just the one saying, my God, my God, why have you forsaken me? But then we have very different sayings from the lips of Jesus on the cross in Luke and then in John as well. The way I would like to put it is this. We have four portraits of Jesus and no one portrait of Jesus would be adequate to really depict the magnificent things that Jesus said and did and who he was. So you need to look at these accounts of the Passion narrative and the death of Christ as not a snapshot, but as a portrait. And it's an interpretive portrait. And so we have four different, harmonious, but nonetheless different portraits of Christ.

[Father Jim Martin]

That's very helpful. I'd like to talk about the three pillars of Lent and how you understand them and whether they have biblical antecedents. So they are prayer, fasting and almsgiving. Where do they come from? Are they biblically based? Ben?

[Ben Witherington]

Well, yes, I mean, each one separately is biblically based. Connecting them specifically to Lent is not. That's something, so far as I can see, that first happens in the monasteries, for example, with St. Benedict and the Benedictine order of. I mean, he says aura and Labora, you know, we're going to work and we're going to pray. So it seems to me that this comes out of the gestation and evolution of, of the Catholic tradition in relationship to different seasons of the church here. But yes, there is an encouragement to fast in some Gospel passages, obviously there is an encouragement to pray and the disciples even asked Jesus to teach us the Our Father and then almsgiving. One of the things that certainly has been a regular feature of the Lenten season is setting, setting aside money for the poor. And that's actually based on Paul's attempt to take up a collection for famine stricken church in Jerusalem. He went through his various Gentile churches asking for money to take to the Jerusalem church because of the famine in order to take care of the poor. That's that tradition which was eventually taken up into the church practice as a special collection. Not the tithing or the ordinary things that you would do, but what Protestants would call a love offering for that special season.

[Father Jim Martin]

And you've spent most of your life with the Bible. Can you talk about your own spiritual upbringing, religious upbringing, and, and what led you to biblical studies?

[Ben Witherington]

Sure. I am a cradle Methodist, like many of those who will be watching this are cradle Catholics. My mother says my first two words were John Wesley. I don't really believe that, but I have never not been a Methodist and, and I've always been part of what I would call High Church Methodism. So we have plenty of liturgy, not quite as much as the Catholics, but we recite the Nicene Creed, we recite the Apostles Creed, and we have prayers, both rote prayers, like the Lord's Supper, likes the Lord's Prayer, but also spontaneous prayer as well. And that's part of the Methodist tradition as well. That's how I was raised. And that was the practice of my family. Both of my parents were devout Christian persons. Went to church. My whole life, I've been called a church mouse because I'm in the church more than I'm outside of the church all the time. I mean, when I went to college in the early 70s, very tumultuous time in regard to the Vietnam War, civil rights protests, all this sort of stuff. And there comes a time in a person's life where it's not enough to have a heritage of a Christian faith. You need to either embrace it for yourself and delve into it for yourself or not. And so for me, there were the first couple of years at Carolina. I was mad at the church because one of the things I heard from the church was, we're endorsing what the government is doing in Vietnam. And I thought, no, for me, I mean, I grew up in both a Jewish and a Quaker neighborhood. Interesting combination. They were my best friends. And because of my Quaker friends, I took seriously Jesus's pacifism. Well, all of this kind of crystallized in my first two years at Carolina when I became part of an InterVarsity Christian Fellowship on campus and ended up being the song leader and the Bible study leader for that. Now, I knew the Bible reasonably well through high school, but at Carolina, I had a really godly Bible professor named Bernard Boyd. I mean, the truth of the matter is that Dr. Boyd was the best lecturer I've ever heard in my life. He was a spellbinding lecturer. I mean, I can hardly describe. I mean, there were so many young people hungry for some biblical truth or some kind of spiritual truth. He. His classes were sold out, and people were actually sitting in the windows of Graham hall to listen to his lectures or to come to his house for. For coffee and discussion groups and all that sort of stuff. So, I mean, I probably would not be doing what I'm doing if it hadn't been for Bernard Boyd and his encouragement to continue to study the Bible and to grow my faith, to be involved in a prayer group, all that sort of stuff. And I mean, you know, you become what you admire. The people that have had the biggest influence on me in my life have been teachers, teachers in the elementary school, at church as well, including my father, who was my Sunday school teacher in junior high, and then at Carolina and then even beyond. I have fabulous Professors at Gordon Conwell.

[Father Jim Martin]

That's a great story. I want to go back to that period of your life. What was it that you think you were hungry for when you were in Carolina?

[Ben Witherington]

Well, I was looking for some reassurance about my Christian faith because there was a lot of it challenging at Carolina in various ways. You know, the very first day I was on campus, students were taking up a collection for Kent State, for the students that had been murdered at Kent State. I mean, what a way to start your college career. Oh, yeah. I could be shot while I'm here at Carolina if I protest the war. And so, I mean, it was a deep spiritual search. There was one night when I was on campus coming home from the library late, having studied late, and I was walking across a quad where there was nothing but me in grass. And I literally heard somebody say Ben. And I looked around. There was nobody there. I mean, there was nobody within three or four hundred yards of me, at least. And I couldn't see anybody. And then I heard my name called again. Of course, my name means son. Benjamin means son of the right hand. That's not my name. My name is just Ben. But I went back to my room and sat down and started praying. My roommate was a very devout Christian. And I just sort of sat on the bed and started praying and saying, lord, if. If this is you, I'm here. Take me and show me the way that you want me to go. And it was after that it became clear that I should be involved with InterVarsity Christian Fellowship. I had many wonderful spiritual times of prayer with those folks. I never considered myself a great prayer. You know, more of a meditator and a reciter of creeds and prayers that I had learned rather than just being a spontaneous prayer. I mean, obviously I was taught to pray at bedtime. Now I lay me down to sleep, that whole thing. But not. Had not been taught about, you know, just having normal conversations with God. Well, that started after that day when I got called by name. You know, I. It. It led me, for one thing, to the passage about the good shepherd. I call. I call my sheep by name, and they know the sound of my voice. And I thought, oh, okay, this is the Lord calling, and it's a direct call. This is before cell phone. You know, it's BC before cell phone, before computer. This was an audible voice that I heard. And the rest of the story is. Is pretty much history.

[Father Jim Martin]

That's quite a beautiful story. And I don't think I've ever heard a story as clear as that in terms of the call, a couple times I've known people have had kind of audible voices. Did you ever have an experience like that later in life?

[Ben Witherington]

No. No. This was a one off. This was. This was a, you know, God telling me to get my act together because he had plans for me.

[Father Jim Martin]

Thank you for sharing that. I'm curious. You said that you were not a great prayer. More than a meditator. How about now? What's your prayer like these days?

[Ben Witherington]

Well, I pray every evening at bedtime like I was taught as a child. That's clear. But I'm in chapel regularly at the seminary and we're busy praying and we have Holy Communion directly after chapel. So some of us will stay and go to the altar rail and pray and then receive the Holy Eucharist. For me, prayer is something that I certainly do when I'm with my. For example, my Sunday school team, my Sunday school class of adults who are 50, 60, 70. We have a time where we list our prayer concerns and our praise concerns, and we pray right, right through them. When I talk about meditation, I. I open the Bible and believe wholeheartedly. This is God's word. So he's got something to say to me if he wants to start a conversation with me, point me to the right passage, you know, and. And I will read it and I will reflect on it. I mean, it. It happened this morning. I. I've been working on this new book on the beloved disciple. And I was led to go look at Isaiah 40. The voice of one crying in the wilderness, make straight a highway for our God. And the thing that struck me about this is, I mean, there. You've had this experience. There are details in the text that I had never really paid attention to before that hit me like a hammer. And I know that's the Lord saying, wakey, wakey. How come you didn't notice this? Right, right. John's words quoting from Isaiah 40. Well, Isaiah set it forth. This is, speak comfortably to Jerusalem. The time is now for you to hear a word of comfort. Well, you know, it's a scripture that I needed to hear because a lot of my friends have died recently. My first cousin's husband died just yesterday. I'm out of such an age that I've lost quite a lot of colleagues and friends that I grew up with and people I went to Carolina with or went to seminary with. And. No, it's. It's a time of reflecting through grief about a lot of things. Do you know the book by Sheldon Van Auckland called A Severe Mercy.

[Father Jim Martin]

I don't. Great title, though.

[Ben Witherington]

Oh, my goodness. You have to read this book because it's all about him wrestling with the passing of his wife. I mean, it's a love story about him falling in love with his wife and then losing her and being Comforted by reading C.S. lewis's A Grief Observed.

[Father Jim Martin]

Yeah, I was just going to mention that book. It sounds a lot like that. Beautiful book.

[Ben Witherington]

It's an even more beautiful book than. Than that one. Well, 12 now. 13 years ago, we lost our daughter Christie to a pulmonary embolism. She was 32.

[Father Jim Martin]

I'm sorry.

[Ben Witherington]

And I had to work through that grief, through prayer. And at that time, the head of Christianity Today asked me, would I write a reflection on this? And I did. I wrote a little book for Christianity Today called When a Daughter Dies. And in it, I talked about things you should talk to God about, and you need to be just honest with God about what you're thinking and feeling about all of that. But also I had some chapters on things not to say to the grieving. Like, for instance, I'm sorry for your loss. Well, if you're a Christian, you don't think she's lost. My instant reply was, my daughter is not lost. I know right where to find her. She's with Jesus, period, you know, and various other things are. That are not helpful. But the truth is, people don't know what to say to somebody who loses a child like that. They don't know what to say. And so you have to have some mercy on them. That's one of the first occasions, really deep occasions, where scriptures all of a sudden came alive that I knew, but I had never looked at that way. I went back and looked at the story of Jairus Daughter, where Jesus says to a dead girl, talitha Kumi, little girl, arise. And I just started weeping. And I said, I look forward to the day when I hear Jesus say on the Day of Resurrection to my Christie, so I can hold her in my arms again. Now that's a prayer experience, you know, but it was prompted by the Scriptures. And so what I was led to pray is thanking God for all of the good times we had had together. You know, parents are not owed a certain number of years of their children. So Ann and I's approach to the funeral and thereafter was. It was celebration of. Of the life that she had and all the good things about having a daughter like that. I mean, and it brought all kinds of flashbacks that I prayed about. For example, when we lived in Ashlis, Ohio, we lived next to Jehovah's Witnesses. And I remember one day being in the kitchen washing dishes and the. And the window was open, it was summer day. And the neighbor Joshua was talking to Christy, she was probably in the third grade. And Joshua was saying Jehovah this and Jehovah that and Jehovah the other. And Christy said to Joshua, I want none more Jehovah's. It's Jesus for me. Thank you. That's my girl. She was standing up for Jesus. And you know, that's kind of special.

[Father Jim Martin]

Very special. And thank you for sharing that which is going to resonate with so many listeners. For people who are undergoing loss and look to the Scriptures, you got clearly an answer, you know, by being directed to Jairus Daughter, which is such a beautiful passage. And I would imagine many people would wonder, gosh, in my own life, with death and suffering and illness, I turn to the Bible. How is it that God speaks to us in those situations? Would you say it's primarily insights that we get? Is that the idea? Insights and openings and sort of new ways of seeing things?

[Ben Witherington]

I think it is. But what I have learned is you have to come to the scriptures if you're seeking insight. You have to come with an open heart and an open mind and not presuppose, well, I already know what this says. Thank you very much. I've read this before, you know. No, you need to come with an open heart and an open mind and ask, what fresh light. This is a John Wesley quote. What fresh light will you bring forth for me today from your word? And that is one of the ways. It's not the only way, but that's one of the ways to get insight. Now, I grew up in a musical family and as a musician. And so for me, one of the things that opens the door for all of that is listening to music that moves me. And that's often how I'm led into prayer. For example, listening to Brahms Requiem or listening to Forays Requiem. And not just classical music. It can be popular music or. Or church hymns. My very favorite hymn is actually an old Catholic hymn. It's the oldest hymn in the Methodist hymn, Be Thou My Vision, O Lord of My Heart. I was privileged to do my great uncle's funeral. He lived to 102. He was the doctor on Ellis island in the 1920s. And boy, did he have some stories to tell about immigrants. And. And then he returned to North Carolina and he led the pasteurization program for. For milk in North Carolina. And when he got to be about 99 or 100. The French nuns who had a nunnery just outside of High Point, North Carolina, took him in because his wife was gone, his children were far away and all of that. So we had the funeral at the nunnery, in the chapel at the nunnery. And I said, we're going to sing a hymn. It's my favorite. I know that Cousin Rob liked it. And they all, all the nuns stood up and sang it in French. I sang it in English and they all sang it in French. And it was a really special moment. That was the most special moment. There are lots of times where music reaches you at a level that mere words don't reach in the depths of the soul, you know?

[Father Jim Martin]

You know, it's wonderful to hear a scripture scholar say that music is an entree into prayer.

[Ben Witherington]

And I'll tell you one thing that's made me a better prayer, is reading prayers, especially prayers of people who were poetic. And so if you don't mind, I'd like to take a minute just to read one of my favorite prayers about prayer.

[Father Jim Martin]

Please do.

[Ben Witherington]

This is George Herbert prayer. The church's banquet. Angel's age. God's breath in man returning to its birth. Yeah. The soul in paraphrase. The heart in pilgrimage. That's right. You're reaching out to God, but you're expressing what's in your soul. The Christian plummet sounding heaven and earth engine against the almighty sinner's tower reversed thunder, Christ's side piercing spear. This is how you reach God and get him to answer your prayers. By praying, I mean, wow. The six days world transposed in an hour. A kind of tune which all things hear and fear. Softness, peace, joy, love, bliss, exalted manna, Gladness of the best heaven in ordinary man well dressed, the milky Way. It's the bird of paradise. Church bells beyond the stars heard the soul's blood, the land of spices, something understood now, all those little phrases you could unpack one by one and learn a whole theory of prayer just from that one little poem. And for me, that's one of the things that's helped me be a better prayer, is listening to how other people who pray profoundly or write profoundly about prayer teach us what it really is. It's the soul in paraphrase. That's what prayer is.

[Father Jim Martin]

That's a great insight. And I always find, Ben, you know, that's one of the reasons I like reading spiritual reading, right? People writing about the Bible or their spiritual lives or prayer because, you know, you always get something new. You get a new insight, you Get a new image of God that you've never thought about. I'm curious and I hear this a lot from Catholics who don't know the Bible as well as their Protestant brothers and sisters. When you come to the Bible for prayer and insight, how much do you think you have to know about it? So sometimes people say, well, I'm not a scripture scholar, I don't know what's going on. And I think you're the perfect person to ask this of. When a person who may not have much education in Biblical studies approaches the Bible, how much do they have to know and where would they go to know what they need to know?

[Ben Witherington]

Well, let me give the example from my grandfather who was a deacon in the Baptist church. He never got beyond high school and yet he was a profound and deep Christian person for sure. And I was pleased that I got his Bible. And I went and looked up the passages that were folded over or you could see where, where the sweat had affected the border of the passage and all of that, you know, and, and the one that he went to more than any other was Psalm 23. The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want. And I thought, you know, if you're going to talk to somebody who really doesn't know the Bible, start with passages that resonate with where they are. In other words, you know, don't start with something that's confusing and complex. If you want your word to be winsome and you want to win some by being winsome, then come to passages that are entree level passages that they can begin to understand. Your audience needs to gear what level of Bible stuff you're giving them. And you know, the truth of the matter is, I mean, you have this gift, and I hope that I do too, is the gift to distill the biblical truth to any level of discourse. That's a key to reaching anybody with the Bible and having enough sense to start simple and work to more complex, for sure. So you know, in the Old Testament I'll look to some psalms, in the New Testament I'll be dealing with some of Jesus's parables. People resonate with stories, you know, and, and so that's a good place to start with them. And rather than dealing with really complex theological issues right off bad, we're going.

[Father Jim Martin]

To pause for a short break, but we will be right back.

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[Father Jim Martin]

Do you have a lot of people coming to you and saying, I open up the Bible and I feel like I don't know what's going on in this passage and I don't know where to look. You know, the one I always point to, People come to me and they, for example, they talk about Corban. You know, when Jesus talks about that in terms of the offering, and a lot of people say, I'm not sure where to go. Do you think it's as easy as going to a Bible commentary or looking at the footnotes in the Bible? Because I guess what I'm saying is that sometimes stops people because they feel dumb, they feel stupid, they feel uneducated, and they feel that the Bible is kind of impenetrable. So I'm just kind of curious where.

[Ben Witherington]

Someone would go, well, you know, I would start easy and maybe just say, have you considered buying a study Bible that is a Bible that has notes on the bottom of the page, rather than buying a series of commentaries which could. I mean, there are good, simple commentaries, but that's kind of intimidating.

[Father Jim Martin]

Let me move on a little bit. I know you best, and we become friends and colleagues, and your work has been immensely helpful to me. I know you best for your work on Lazarus and the Beloved Disciple. But I would say, broadly speaking, I've been thinking about this a lot. Ben, you're also known for the way that you help people see the historicity of many Bible passages and many figures who are sometimes dismissed as ahistorical. Do you think there's more history in the Bible than we generally think? What would you say to that?

[Ben Witherington]

I would say absolutely, because Christianity is a historically founded religion. I mean, it's like Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15, if Christ is not raised, close up the church and go home, you're still in your sins, you know? No. There is an irreducible amount of historical bedrock on which the Christian faith is based. It's not just a spiritual philosophy, it's a historical religion like Judaism was like Islam is. It's based on certain strongly believed historical events. I mean, for me, I mean, one of the things I love doing. I wish I could drag you along someday, is I go to Turkey almost every summer for a week or so and go to the archaeological sites. And sure enough, one of the things that happens is it illuminates the biblical text and it makes you realize. And my students love it because they say, oh, this really happened. It happened here. And I'm there. And they just start jumping up and down and going crazy because, you know, the penny had not dropped, that these are real people having real experiences with God, with Jesus, with the disciples, with the apostles. And the reason there are all these archeological sites and ruins is because something happened there long ago that we could learn about. I will give you one quick example. So I'm at the city in Antioch in Turkey, which is one of the first cities Paul visited after he went to Cyprus. He went to Perga, and then he went. He. He climbed 125 miles over the Ural Mountains to get to Pisidia in Antioch. Why, he could have gone along the coast and ended up in his hometown of Tarsus, gone through the Cilician Gates and gone back to Antioch. Instead, he goes straight up the Via Sebast, over the mountains to Pisidia in Antioch. Well, one day I'm at the little teeny museum that's about as big as your office in Yalvoch, which is Pisidian Antioch. And outside the museum, sitting on a wall, is a stone. And the stone says El Sergius Paulus. That's the name of the governor in Cyprus that Paul had just met when he was in Cyprus. Huh. And if you go back and read the story in Acts 13:14, what you discover is that Sergius Paulus was very impressed with Paul. In fact, that's where we have the name change. It goes from. From being Saul to being Paulos, which is the same as Sergius Paulus's name in Latin. And they. They hit it off. And Sergius Paulus was impressed with the. The word that Paul preached, the good news he preached. So I thought, wait a minute. Sergius Paulus hometown is Pisidian Antioch. Oh, maybe the governor of Cyprus gave Paul and Barnabas a letter of reference and said, won't you please go share this message in my tiny little hometown and called Pisidian Antioch. And I think that's what happened. And I would not have known that had I not found that stone sitting outside the museum that has his name on it twice.

[Father Jim Martin]

It's a great story, and it is a reminder again that these things are based in history, as you say, it's an historical religion. And, you know, it's funny, you're talking about the penny drop. Ben, I've been to the Holy Land. Not as often as you have, but the first time we had a Pilgrimage with American media to the Holy Land. I love this. We were at the Sea of Galilee, and this woman who's, you know, she's a devout Catholic. She was probably 67 years old. She believed in everything. She said, I can't believe it. I said, what do you mean? She said, I knew this place existed, the Sea of Galilee. I always thought it was a kind of myth, though. I felt that it was a kind of place that, in a sense, was unreal. And here it is, you know, and I'm standing and looking at the things that Jesus looked at. So she believed it. But to see it and to be there gives you a sense of the reality of Jesus in a way that it's hard to kind of describe for people.

[Ben Witherington]

Absolutely, absolutely. We have an edifice complex. We like buildings, we like places. We like sacralizing buildings, which makes them impervious to change. I have served churches that might as well have had over the lintel of their church that said the seven last words of the church. We've never done it that way before. And I'm sure you've had this experience.

[Father Jim Martin]

Are you kidding? Of course. Yes.

[Ben Witherington]

Yes. But when you read Jesus's Word, the day is coming and now is when it's not going to be about place or buildings. It's going to be about whenever and wherever. We genuinely worship in spirit and in truth. I have been sitting on the Sea of Galilee and watched one of my students just break into tears. She says, I've always wanted to get closer to Jesus, but here, standing on the shore of Galilee, I know he was here, and I know he's here with me now. And that was the crystallizing moment for her. It was like all of this archeology and history stuff really matters because it really happens. You know, that was just kind of. And we were all just crying at that point. Jesus is here with us.

[Father Jim Martin]

Let me ask you a question. One of your books is Sola Scriptura, one of your most recent books, which, of course, was a rallying cry during the Reformation. And I know that Catholics are sometimes allergic to that term. How do you define that term for Catholics who might be put off by that or who might even be not familiar or even suspicious of, you know, biblical denominations?

[Ben Witherington]

Well, I'd tell them, first of all that the people who came up with this phrase were all Catholics. Dante uses this phrase when he's critiquing the Pope and says, the Pope is not the final authority, thank you very much. The Bible is. He got in deep trouble for this. Deep Trouble. But there was Marsilius of Padua, a Catholic priest in Italy, who used this phrase and again said, it's the final authority. The Bible is the final authority. William of Ockham, very famous philosopher, Catholic philosopher, used this phrase, solo scriptura. And then John Wycliffe, a Catholic priest in England, used this phrase. Before the Protestants ever got hold of it, y' all were already talking about it. And the reason was because they were worried that the Bible was being eclipsed by mere human authority. And they wanted to have a high view of the authority of God's own word and listen to what God was saying. So I would say the phrase, of course, literally means only Scripture, but in no context does it mean there are no other resources that you need. Of course, you need tradition. Of course, you need human experience. If you haven't had an experience of God, well, you're not going to understand the Bible anyway. Right? Of course you need reason. You need all of these things. But what sola scriptura really means is that the primary source of authority for any Christian is the Bible. That's the primary source. And then there will be these other supplementary sources like tradition, reason and experience. And so I would say shouldn't be afraid of the phrase, especially if you're Catholic, because Catholics originated it.

[Father Jim Martin]

Why do you think Catholics have an aversion? Do you think it's a carryover from the Reformation? And how do you. How do you sort of surmount that with Catholic audiences, which I'm sure you address often?

[Ben Witherington]

I understand that some of the version to the Bible is partly because Protestants are so obsessed with the Bible and. And how Catholics define themselves is, well, that's not me. That's not me. Right. No, I. I'll go to Mass and I'll do this, and I'll do novenas and I'll go confess my sins to the priest. And, you know, I'll. I even go walk the Via Dolorosa if I get to go to Jerusalem, but that's not me. You know, I do think this has changed considerably since Vatican ii, especially if you're talking to young Catholics that go to public universities. My experience with them is they enjoy being in a youth group that. Like InterVarsity or Campus Crusade or those sorts of things, but they still attend the Catholic Church on Sunday. I remember one of these, and you'll get a laugh out of this. One of these Catholic girls wanted to give her testimony in our intervarsity little meeting where we would sing and pray and read the Bible and all that. And she said the Way I see it, it all works out very well. I like committing sins. God likes forgiving sins. I said, that's not quite what the Bible is saying.

[Father Jim Martin]

That's great.

[Ben Witherington]

I'm going, oh, my goodness, that's great.

[Father Jim Martin]

Now, Ben, I could talk to you, as you know, for hours and hours, but we have to get to an audience question. And this is a perfect question for you. I'll answer it first in my own way, and then I'd like to hear your answer. And this audience question is from Robert. And the question is, how do I hear the readings at Mass? So the Gospel reading, the first reading, the Psalm, the second reading with freshness, when I've heard them many times before. So, Robert, I would say something that Ben mentioned I think is really important, that it is the living word, the Bible is the living word, and that there is always something fresh about it and there is always something new. And if you can go into these readings, even if it's the same reading, say, during Lent, with an openness and a trust that God is going to reveal something to you new, I think that's the most important thing. Because, you know, as Ben was saying, there are parts of the, the Gospels in particular for me that you read and you say, gosh, was that even there before? And it's a sign that God is speaking to you. I'll give you a very brief example from my own life, the story of the rich young man I was reading on retreat. And, you know, I thought, I've read this a million times before. I don't even need to read it before I pray it, but I read it. And when the rich young man or ruler comes up to Jesus, one of the passages says, Jesus looked at him and loved him. And I remember thinking, where did that come from? And it just changed things completely. So I would say, Robert, to just approach it with openness and a trust that God can speak to you in a new way. So, Ben, how would you answer that question? How do I hear the readings at Mass with freshness, even if I've heard them many times before?

[Ben Witherington]

Well, I would say look at a different translation than the one that's read in Mass. And if you really want it to be something that's really fresh, that's different, look at Eugene Peterson's paraphrase. Not another literal translation, but so many times his paraphrase gets right to the heart of what's being said. And you have an aha moment. Now, Eugene Peterson was a legitimate New Testament scholar, and he did the paraphrase based on what he thought was exactly the meaning of the text. So it's a little more expansive than just reading verse by verse, but not much. And I always get fresh insight from that.

[Father Jim Martin]

By the way, is the Eugene Peterson book called the Message. Is that his translation?

[Ben Witherington]

That's it.

[Father Jim Martin]

Well, Ben Witherington, I just want to thank you for so many things. I want to thank you personally for all the help that your study and your research and your writings have been in my life, particularly the insights about Lazarus as the beloved disciple. I want to thank you for really sharing your faith with us as well. Not just your knowledge and your wisdom, but your spiritual journey and particularly that really profound time you had when you heard God's call on you. So thank you for joining us and may you have a blessed Lent.

[Ben Witherington]

Thank you very much. You too.

[Father Jim Martin]

Well, wasn't that great? Did you enjoy listening to him?

[Maggie Van Dorn]

Oh, yeah, Absolutely fascinating. Jim, what are you going to take with you into maybe your article reflection on this episode?

[Father Jim Martin]

Yeah, I'm going to write an article which people can find in the show notes on the historical Jesus and why it's important to understand as much as we can, as Ben was saying, about the historical Jesus. Also, I'd like to let you know that I have a new book out, a memoir called Work in Progress. It's the story of finding work through a variety of crazy summer jobs like busboy, dishwasher, caddy, factory worker and many more. And eventually finding God. Basically, it's a light hearted spiritual memoir about growing up in the 60s, 70s and 80s and is available in print, ebook and audio anywhere. Books are sold. I really hope you enjoy Work in Progress. The Spiritual Life with Father James Martin is produced by Maggie Van Dorn, Sebastian Gomes and myself, production assistants from Kevin Christopher Robles and Will Gualtieri. Adam Buckmuller engineered the show. The theme score is courtesy of Teddy Abrams and Nate Farrington. You can follow me across social media. Amesmartinsj. Thanks very much and God bless you.

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[Father Jim Martin]

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