← The Spiritual Life with Fr. James Martin, S.J.
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- [00:00]
A
Why does the term healthcare leave people feeling sick to their stomach?
- [00:04]
B
Maybe it's because instead of being tied to health, the word seems to have.
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A
A deeper connection to industries. At Catholic Healthcare, we're returning the word healthcare back to its former glory. Because when healthcare really cares, communities thrive, prevention is prioritized, and everyone has access to care. Say it with me, health care sounds better already. Catholic Healthcare, we care you flourish. Sponsored by the Catholic Health Association.
- [00:31]
B
I think we got obsessed with the notion of sin, sin as a moral category, which immediately puts you in the lane of judgment, reward and punishment. Whereas if we had remained in the Jesus lane, but we would have said the issue is not sin, but brokenness, the need for healing. And there none of us can call ourselves saved. I think the Spirit did that best clearest and most simply with the 12 step program, recognizing that addiction is not a sin to be confessed, but a healing to be requested.
- [01:26]
A
Welcome to the spiritual life. I'm Fr. Jim Martin. On this podcast, we reflect on how people experience God in their prayer and in their daily lives. And I am joined by my terrific producer, Maggie Van Dorn. Maggie, good to be with you.
- [01:41]
C
It's wonderful to be here with you, Jim, and I am so excited because you have a legendary guest on the show today.
- [01:49]
A
We are very excited to be speaking with the amazing and the legendary Father Richard Rohr. Now, he may not need an introduction, but, Maggie, can you introduce him for us?
- [02:00]
C
I know so many people have asked, when are we speaking to Richard Rohr? And so here it is. Richard Rohr is a Franciscan friar. He's a spiritual teacher. He's an internationally recognized author, and he's known for his work on contemplation, mysticism, and Christian spirituality. Father Rohr founded the center for Action and Contemplation in Albuquerque, New Mexico, and he's authored numerous books, including Falling the Universal Christ and Breathing Underwater. And his book, the Universal Christ, he was able to share with the late Pope Francis, who was very encouraging towards him. And I think it might be helpful, Jim, if you could just give us a brief primer on this book and the concept of the universal Christ and perhaps why it's so groundbreaking.
- [02:49]
A
Yeah, it's a great book, and it's the book that I think introduced him to a very wide audience, although I've loved his books, particularly Falling Upward and Breathing Underwater. You know, it's a look at what I would say is the Christ of faith, and maybe a little theology is helpful here. So, traditionally, theologians and spiritual writers have, in a sense, looked at Jesus Christ in Two main ways. The Jesus of history or the historical Jesus. So that would be the man who walked the dusty streets of Judea and Galilee. And what we can know about Roman culture then and Greek culture then, and Jewish culture then, what was it like for this person who was Jesus of Nazareth, Right. And what was his life like? I find that fascinating myself. And then there is what you would call studies of the Christ of faith. Now, who is that? Well, it's the same person. Of course, we have to be clear about that. The Jesus of history is the Christ of faith. But books on the Christ of faith would focus more, shall we say, on his divinity, so his miracles, for example. And of course, we have to say, you know, for theologians out there, you know, you can't just say that it's the divinity in him that performs the miracles. He's fully human and fully divine at all times. But it looks at the resurrected Christ, the risen one, the one who was with us through. Through the Spirit and the universal Christ, I think makes the claim that that universal Christ, that the Christ of faith is really present to all of us, right, at all times. Now, this is a gross simplification of the book, and I encourage people to read it, but it really is focusing more on the Christ of faith and the accessibility and the invitation for everyone to experience that Christ of faith who has risen and alive and present to us through the spirit. But again, I want to say, and this is my book, Jesus A Pilgrimage tried to make case that the Jesus of history is the Christ of faith. One of my favorite insights comes from Stanley Marrow, who was a Jesuit New Testament scholar, who said that, you know, for Jesus to have risen on Easter Sunday, as anyone else, you know, than the person that the disciples knew, would void the resurrection of all meaning. So we can't say that the Jesus of history, Jesus of Nazareth, died and somehow the Christ of faith was resurrected. It's the same person, right? It's the same being. It can't even say that it's the Son of God. Right.
- [05:21]
C
And why is that significant and sort of groundbreaking? Because, as you've mentioned, the Jesus of history and the Christ of faith, this is the same person we're talking about, but it sounds like the universal Christ, you know, Richard's book, that it highlighted something that people were hungry for.
- [05:40]
A
Also hard to explain and hard to summarize, but I would say, based on my reading of the book, would be the accessibility of the universal Christ for everyone. And sometimes he was critiqued for that. He talks a little bit about that in our conversation. But I think it's a beautiful book and it really reminds us that Jesus Christ is present and available and accessible to all of us and is present everywhere. So that's how I understand the book.
- [06:06]
C
Yeah. And Father Richard Rohrer has a huge influence in the world of Christian spirituality, Right?
- [06:14]
A
Yeah. I'm glad you asked me that. I think most of our listeners, I would imagine, are familiar with Richard Rohr. I often say to people that, you know, he is in a sense, the spiritual master to the spiritual masters. And so people who we go to, who write books and do podcasts and give lectures and run retreats and do spiritual direction, they will often look to Richard Rohr. Alright. As their spiritual master or someone who really guides them. And I don't think there's anyone really comparable in Christian spirituality who is so beloved and so influential. So, for example, I have many spiritual directees and almost all of them talk about getting Richard Rohr's daily messages from the center of action and contemplation 1 or reading 1 of Richard Rohr's books. And I have a directee who, you know, Richard Rohr's book Breathing Underwater is kind of his or text. I mean, that's what he relies on. I've really profited so much from his work, his approaches to Christianity, to religion, to God, to Jesus. And I'm really happy that we were able to have this beautiful conversation with him.
- [07:25]
C
Well, great. And I'm so happy that one of our audience members, Michael, gets to pose a question to the Great Spirit spiritual teacher, Father Richard Rohr. And Michael's question, which you both take up together, is if the goal of the spiritual life is to develop a disposition of freely seeking and cooperating with God's grace, how important is the Catholic practice of faith compared to other religious paths? So stick around because Father Jim and Father Richard will answer that question together. And if you'd like to ask Father Jim a question, you can write to us@thespirituallifeamericamedia.org well, thanks, Maggie.
- [08:06]
A
And now onto our conversation with Father Richard Rohr. Well, Richard Rohr, one of my favorite spiritual writers of all time and a fan favorite. Welcome to the spiritual life.
- [08:24]
B
Thank you for having me. It's good to be here.
- [08:27]
A
My pleasure. And I think if I had a podcast called the Spiritual Life and did not invite Richard Rohr on, I think I should be excommunicated.
- [08:37]
B
You're easily pleased. Easily. Thank you.
- [08:40]
A
Well, thank you for all of your great work and all the wonderful books that I've read. And the friendship you've given me, the advice you've given me. I want to jump right in with a broad question, Richard. How would you define spirituality for someone.
- [08:54]
B
Knowing things from the inside out and loving them? It's not just the knowing, it's the attaching, enjoying part is crucial. Or you don't have spirituality.
- [09:14]
A
That's interesting. So loving what? Loving the universe? Loving other people?
- [09:19]
B
Both the universe, other people, reality, and that other word for reality, God.
- [09:29]
A
And how about Christian spirituality? When you teach someone about Christian spirituality, what's the difference there?
- [09:36]
B
Jesus made the whole thing personal, relational, interactive, beautiful. Those are the words that immediately come to mind. So it isn't just a Platonic abstraction. And I see that danger today in a lot of people. They are spiritual and we're grateful for that. But I regret that a lot of them aren't Christian anymore and they don't have that personal devotional love element that you learned from Ignatius and I learned from Francis. That glues the whole thing together.
- [10:23]
A
Now that's interesting. So how does that manifest itself? Is it that people only sort of adhere to a set of beliefs without loving other people? Is that what you're getting at?
- [10:34]
B
Yeah. It inevitably always leads to some form of giving back, service, caring. Love is not an abstraction. Love is not a mental process by which I say I'm in love with, but it drives you toward wanting to help the one you love serve the one you love.
- [11:07]
A
Now, I was going to get to this later, but since you brought Jesus up, I'm really curious about your book, which I loved. The universal Christ. And since you brought Jesus up.
- [11:17]
B
Oh, thank you.
- [11:17]
A
Yeah. Can you talk about what that term means to make?
- [11:22]
B
Well, it's probably a bit of an overstatement, but in my 50 some years working as a priest now, I find that an awful high percentage of Christians across denominational lines love Jesus but have yet to meet Christ. And the most simple way of putting that is they love the concrete, but they don't love the universalization of that concrete. Another oversimplification is, I would say in general, Matthew, Mark and Luke are about Jesus. John is about Christ. This universal mystery that walks around saying, I and the Father are one. You cannot do it without union with me and Him. It leads us into the whole trinitarian mystery that is unique to Christianity.
- [12:31]
A
Yeah. And John's Gospel, for those who might not be familiar with it, really is. I mean, it's obviously the same story about the same person, but it does take a different attack and there's a different Christology. There's a different way of looking at Jesus.
- [12:44]
B
That's the point I'm making. Yeah.
- [12:46]
A
Now, is it a question of people focusing too much on what you might call the Jesus of history versus the Christ of faith versus the Resurrected one? Is that the idea?
- [12:59]
B
Maybe it comes down to that. What happened at the resurrection, you and I probably believe is the Presence becomes an omnipresence or reveals itself as an omnipresence, and that people are still doubting. I get real criticism because some people say, I don't think they understand me, but they think I'm teaching pantheism, and if I said everything is God, they could call me that. But I'm saying God can be found, is revealed in everything. That, for me, is the whole point, the one unitive consciousness revealing the deepest consciousness of everything. We find that in a rudimentary form in plants, in animals, which is what makes them all sacred and beautiful.
- [14:09]
A
That's beautiful. I'd like to go a little deeper on this question of the universal Christ. What would it mean for someone who was a Christian to focus simply on the Jesus of history and not be aware of, say, the Risen One or the resurrected Christ? What would that mean for them?
- [14:28]
B
Well, we see some of the effects of that today. People who use the Jesus language a great deal but have no social ethic, who can still be racist nationalists. When Jesus talks about the kingdom of his Father, he's certainly not saying, make America great again. These are different kingdoms. There's so many Christians that don't catch that this Christian nationalism, our white nationalism, is not the kingdom of Jesus. That's what happens if you dare to develop your Christology without letting Jesus become Christ.
- [15:18]
A
That's interesting. Because of the presence of Christ in all things and in all people, including the poor and the marginalized. Is that the idea?
- [15:25]
B
Of course. Of course.
- [15:27]
A
That's very helpful. Now I understand. Well, I know that you met with Pope Francis a couple of years ago.
- [15:33]
B
Your wonderful Jesuit pope.
- [15:36]
A
Yes. Did you talk about the universal Christ? About the book?
- [15:40]
B
Oh, now you're going to give me a chance to brag?
- [15:43]
A
Feel free.
- [15:44]
B
I did. I see he had over his desk between me and him, all kind of papers and books scattered. And I said, I wrote a book, which is really presumptuous of me to tell a pope that I wrote a book, the Universal Christ. He shuffles through the papers, holds up the Spanish version, and with a grin on his face, says, I read it. Which I don't care if he even read one page of it. I knew he Taught it before he read it from me. He understood, which is why he understood me, I think.
- [16:27]
A
And what did you talk about, if you can share that?
- [16:30]
B
Well, he kept asking me, tell me about what you believe and what you teach. And he'd lean forward in his chair, and then he'd step back and keep doing it, keep saying it. I think of all the priests in the world who would do anything for that kind of fatherly pat on the back. And he gave it so gratuitously. It was wonderful.
- [17:00]
A
I had that experience, too. I felt like the first time I saw him, someone said, what was it like? And I said, it was like being with the kindest parish priest you could ever imagine.
- [17:10]
B
That was my experience.
- [17:12]
A
You got it just very encouraging and loving and funny, too.
- [17:17]
B
Yes. He's got a sense of humor, which is a giveaway for authentic spirituality, I think.
- [17:24]
A
I agree. I'm going to go back a little bit to some more basic questions. Richard, you've been teaching contemplation and the Mystical Tradition at the center for Action and Contemplation. And just through your books and talks all over the place, how would you articulate your approach to prayer?
- [17:42]
B
It's become simpler and simpler. My latest iteration, as I watch myself praying, I'm calling it gazing. Holy gazing. As soon as you put too concrete a practice, you've got to do it this long or with this mental set, it limits it too much. I have a little porch on the front of my hermitage, and during most of the summer months, I spent at least an hour and a half on the porch just gazing. And I'm gazing in an ugly old parking lot, a dumpster and some beautiful trees in between. But it's total contentment. It disappoints me a bit when I see different contemplative teachers almost. Almost arguing about their method of limiting the mind or focusing the mind or loving with the mind, all of which are true. But of course, I'm almost 83 now, and I don't need any mental checklist when I can just gaze with a long, loving look at the real. As The Carmelite William McNamara said, Long and loving and looking. I know I'm praying.
- [19:26]
A
I think you're right. And I think that so many spiritual directors and writers, they make it way too complicated.
- [19:34]
B
I agree. Yeah.
- [19:36]
A
And they also, I think they burden people sometimes with, as you say, this checklist. I had a spiritual directee years ago who told me that they were doing lectio divina in the morning and then praying for a list of people on Their sort of petition list, and then reading the Gospels and then reading something from Pray as yous Go, and then reading something from Magnificat, and then reading something. And all those things are wonderful, but it becomes, and it became for this person a burden. But what would you say to someone who says, what's going on inside of you when you're gazing? Cause I could imagine people listening to Richard Rohr saying, well, I'm going to try that. So what's going on inside of you?
- [20:19]
B
A kind of attachment to what I'm seeing. Not attachment in the bad sense, I hope, but attachment in the good sense. Seeing the good, the true and the beautiful, the three classic goals. Without a reason why I'm attaching to it, the world becomes attachable, which is another way of saying lovable.
- [20:53]
A
Right. Paying attention.
- [20:55]
B
Yeah.
- [20:55]
A
You know, because I'm glad you mentioned that you're looking at a parking lot in a dumpster, because I know a lot of people might think, oh, he's probably looking at some beautiful mountain range.
- [21:05]
B
No, it doesn't have to be beautiful. I was just up in Colorado last week looking at beautiful mountain ranges. And that's wonderful, but it doesn't need to be beautiful to be wonderful. I don't know why that's true. Well, if you ever come out here, which I'd love you to, you'll see someone spray painted on the front of my dumpster. Well, it's the parish dumpster, I love you in great big white. And I don't know how long it's been there, but it took me a while. My gosh, the dumpster is speaking back. Is speaking back to me. I love you. I'm not making that up. It's on my dumpster. I love you.
- [21:54]
A
I think that's great. I think to be able to find love in all things, even from a dumpster, is a good goal. We're going to pause for a short break, but we will be right back.
- [22:07]
B
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- [22:37]
A
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- [23:38]
B
This will take me a couple minutes to develop and pray that I say it well. But I think we got obsessed with the notion of sin, sin as a moral category, which immediately puts you in the lane of judgment, reward and punishment. Whereas if we had remained, in what, I think it's only my opinion, the Jesus lane, we would have said the issue is not sin, but brokenness, the need for healing. And there none of us can call ourselves saved. Now the category is now judgment, reward and punishment. But the forever need for healing, when you see that that's just about all Jesus does is heal people, heal people, heal people. If we had used the category of healing instead of the moralistic category of judging who's a sinner and who isn't, we would have made a quicker. We're going to get there. But now I'll reattach it to your question. I think the spirit did that best, clearest and most simply with the 12 step program, recognizing that addiction is not a sin to be confessed, but a healing to be requested. And that changes the whole thing from judgment to sympathy, empathy, caring, what Gerald Vann called years ago the divine pity, the divine sympathy. Also, let me add one thing, the notion of intergenerational trauma, that if you've ever directed someone over a period of time, you know that this is intergenerational. It's not one person's sin. It's the sin of my culture, my nationality, my family, my inheritance. You can see why we created the word original sin and said it was passed down from parent to child, parent to child, parent to child. It doesn't deserve judgment. It deserves sympathy and healing well.
- [26:40]
A
And that really squares with my experience as a spiritual director. Good in the sense that so many people feel and see God as primarily a judge.
- [26:50]
B
It's horrible. Who would love a judge Now? Forgive me, judges, but if you're primarily a judge.
- [26:58]
A
Yeah. Now, where do you think all of this comes from? Where do you think this, of course, you know, we, we also have to say, Jesus, you know, God is going to judge us at some point, right, for what we've done. And. But where do you think that sort of, in a sense, focus by people on God's judgment comes from?
- [27:15]
B
Because we taught it. I don't know if you got into my book the Tears of Things.
- [27:21]
A
I'm halfway through it.
- [27:23]
B
Okay, well, I'm going to prepare you for the last page. It's a classic Jesus parable, in my opinion. There's an angel walking the streets of the world, and he's got a torch in one hand and a pail of water in the other. And people, of course, ask the angel, what are you doing with the water and the torch? He said, I'm here to burn down the mansions of heaven and to put out the fires of hell. Only then can we see who really loves God. As long as we're motivating people by punishment and reward, which we majored in in organized religion, if the individual doesn't go to the mystical level, it keeps people at a moralistic level, so focused.
- [28:32]
A
Mainly on their actions.
- [28:33]
B
Right, their actions. And as if they, with freedom, chose bad, with great unfreedom, they chose bad. Our healing theology would say it's their unfreedom that makes them do stupid things.
- [28:55]
A
Let me ask you something. I can imagine people saying, well, you know, Jesus talks about judging. He talks about, in Matthew 25, he talks about the sheep and the goats. And, you know, we believe as Catholics will be judged by our actions. So Jesus calls out sin, you know, in different places. So what would you say to people who point to those passages in the Gospels and say, well, Jesus, Jesus is the judge and God is going to judge us at the end of our lives. And we also, sometimes I hear people say, well, we have to judge other people's actions. What's your response to people who point to those passages?
- [29:29]
B
Well, as I try to say on the tiers of things, we've got to understand Jesus in the lineage of the prophets. And they also start with dualistic anger and judgment. And yet again and again, if you stay with almost, not all, but most, that anger morphs, develops, moves into tears, into sadness instead of the hating. Reality's brokenness. You pity it, you feel sorry for it, you care about it. It's there in the last some and it's in the last three verses, like Habakkuk. But it's always there in Jeremiah. It's. It's much earlier, so much so he had to write A whole other book, Lamentation, where the anger has to become sadness.
- [30:39]
A
Let me ask you something about Jesus. I am enjoying your book, and I do find that insight so helpful in terms of moving from anger to sadness.
- [30:51]
B
Oh, thank you.
- [30:51]
A
Yeah, very helpful. I actually read it on the subway in the morning. That's where I'm reading your book. So it's easy to get angry to.
- [30:58]
B
The New York subway?
- [30:59]
A
Yes, it's easy to get angry on the subway, too. I guess what I'm thinking is. And you're helping me think about this in a new way, of course. We have to just, you know, Jesus is very much in the prophetic tradition, as biblical scholars will tell us. We have to distinguish him from, you know, another prophet because he's the Son of God. Of course. But do you see that pattern at all in Jesus life? Because when you were talking, I was thinking, he weeps over Jerusalem. And then the risen Christ, I've always found interesting is not someone who comes back with judgment. He comes back to heal.
- [31:31]
B
Very good. Very good.
- [31:33]
A
Right. He comes back to heal Peter, to forgive him. His first words to the disciples in the locked room are, peace be with you. It's not you, abandon me. So I'm wondering, do you see that movement in Jesus, at least as portrayed in the Gospels, in Jesus life, it's.
- [31:48]
B
So simple and clear. In Jesus, even his anger, which is a stage, a necessary stage, the things he's angry about are power and money, things he's dualistic about. You cannot serve God and mammon, for example, or Matthew 25, the sheep and the goats, money and power and arrogance. He's dualistically angry, but he doesn't stay there. By the time of the resurrection, his anger morphs into sadness, which allows him to affirm both movements. If Jesus went through unnecessary anger, we can too.
- [32:44]
A
Well, and also, Jesus's anger is always on behalf of someone else or something else.
- [32:50]
B
Very good.
- [32:50]
A
Right?
- [32:50]
B
Very good.
- [32:51]
A
The temple. And it's a. In that way, it's a righteous anger. Whereas our anger is often, you know, about some slight.
- [32:57]
B
About a personal slight.
- [33:00]
A
Yeah. But I have found it fascinating that also when in John 21, when the risen Christ appears to. He's grilling fish on the seashore and Peter and the beloved disciples see him. I find it fascinating that Peter jumps in the water immediately and he seems to know or intuit that this man is going to forgive me. Because you could also imagine Peter as sort of, you know, recoiling and thinking, oh, my gosh, this is the guy I denied knowing. He's going to be really upset. But he seems to know that, that Jesus is going to forgive him, which I find really beautiful.
- [33:38]
B
That's a wonderful insight. Wonderful. Thank you.
- [33:42]
A
You're welcome. Yeah, that came on a retreat once. I just thought, you know, a human being would say, I want to avoid this guy, right, who I denied knowing. Let me ask you to shift a little bit. How would you say that your Franciscan background has given you a formation for your spirituality?
- [34:01]
B
Where do I start? It's the love of littleness, of unimportance, of failure, of. It's the non seeking of moralistic perfection. You know, he said in one of his early biographies he wanted to wear his habit all patched up so people would know on the outside what he's like on the inside. There's that healing thing again. It's when he kisses the leper that he understands the meaning of salvation. He's the masculine form of what Therese of Lisieux says in the 19th century, 20th century. It's the same little way, the most summary way I say it, and I see this in my own life. You come to God by doing it wrong, not by doing it right. And darn it, I mean, I had a wonderful novice master and professors, not all of them, but most of them. And they gave me every impression. God and the order and the Church would love me by doing it right. And boy, did I try as a one on the Enneagram. And it got me nowhere.
- [35:44]
A
The one is a perfectionist. Is that right?
- [35:47]
B
That's right. Terrible. Now I don't try anymore. That doesn't mean I love to do things wrong. But when I recognize my slippage, my contradictions, I gain the great pity, the great sympathy for myself and for almost everybody else.
- [36:11]
A
You know, I quote that often to other people. I think that was, if I'm not mistaken in soul brothers about St. Peter. We come to God not by doing.
- [36:20]
B
Is that where I said it?
- [36:21]
A
I think that's where you said it. And I'm wondering, what do you say to people who would say, well, gosh, aren't I supposed to do right? Isn't that the point of things?
- [36:32]
B
I would say that your dualistic mind's still operating, knowing things in either ors. You know, we spent so much time in organized religion trying to prove we were not sinners. And here we have our Jesus eating with sinners, which is identifying with them, going out with him. That's a different solidarity that we have to be taught how to enjoy solidarity with the wounded part of humanity. A very real Solidarity instead of wasting life, proving I'm not a sinner. The first thing our Pope Francis said in that first month of his papacy. Who are you? They asked. He said, I'm a sinner. Hallelujah. That's what we need to hear from the Pope.
- [37:33]
A
I agree. One of the wonderful phrases that we have in the Jesuits, that's a kind of development of what St. Ignatius showed us in the Spiritual Exercises, or at least invited us to see through the Spiritual Exercises, is that we're loved sinners, which I love. And I think if we lose sight of either one of those, we're in trouble. Right.
- [37:53]
B
Well put. The Jesuits always get it right.
- [37:59]
A
We get it wrong a lot too, but we come to God by doing it wrong as well. You know, I wasn't expecting to bring this up, but I think the Richard Rohr quote I use the most, what is Jesus never said worship me. He said, follow me.
- [38:16]
B
Oh, yeah.
- [38:16]
A
Well, and I'm curious to know, how does that. How does not understanding that. Of course, you know, we do worship Jesus, of course, as the Son of God. It's appropriate and I do too, and all those kinds of things. But I'm wondering how that misunderstanding that affects people in their Christian lives.
- [38:36]
B
The worship of Jesus emerged as a worship system once we accepted the Constantinian imperial revolution. We needed a religion of a central God figure that we all could rally around, which I agree with. But I really don't believe Jesus needs to be worshiped. And there's a lot of ceremony which would make you think that the prophets are pretty hard. Not pretty hard, very hard on ceremony, temple ceremony. I love the Mass, but I wouldn't consider my primary form of prayer Eucharistic. It's been used too much for exclusion. I consider my primary form of prayer contemplation, which is still worship of God, but doesn't get trapped in all the symbols of doing the worship right, wearing the right clothes, who's admitted, who can come to communion. I just don't have time. That's my impatience, my sin. But for those arguments anymore, we brought up contemplation.
- [40:11]
A
Again, you've done a lot of spiritual direction and teaching over the years. What's the most common struggle for people in the spiritual life, would you say? And what's your advice back to them?
- [40:23]
B
The dominance, I think of their thinking mind, which races them into the future and judges the past as inadequate or something other than just a teacher. We are the beneficiaries of being post enlightenment Christians and we're grateful for the wisdom, the Enlightenment gave us. But when our whole education system was enlightenment based. This is another thing this Ian McGilchrist is saying. You know, if God is in any way consciousness itself, there's no time when you're not praying. And then you have to define what consciousness is. He says the reason no one can is because it's not un. Anything, it's everything. The aliveness, the love in everything. Once you plug into that, you're plugged in, You're a natural contemplative, which is why many nature mystics, which Francis in part was, Get enchanted with the natural world and becomes your sacrament. The early Franciscans apparently spoke of of nature as the first Bible, the first revelation of God. And this is said in Romans 1:20. Everything you need to know about God is revealed in the natural world. So Romans 1:20, check it out. It's not heresy, it's not pantheism, it's revelation. And suddenly you're at home in the world. You're in love with the world. There's no contrary evidence. It even includes death. And you're given a sympathy around death. Most animals die a painful death. Almost all of them do. How can God allow that? I don't know. I still don't know. But it's part of the mystery that.
- [43:02]
A
Brings us to an audience question. Richard. So this is from a fellow named Michael, and we have lots and lots of questions, and we thought this would be a good question to ask you. So Michael asks, if the goal of the spiritual life is to develop a disposition of freely seeking and cooperating with God's grace, how important is the Catholic practice of faith compared to other religious paths? What would you say to that? And then I'll answer it after you.
- [43:32]
B
The miracle. The gift of Catholic Christianity is the Incarnation. It takes it much more seriously than some denominations. The whole universe is sacramental. Everything shimmers with God. That's why I can't give up on Catholicism. We don't all get there, but we can easily get there if we want to. We've got enough saints in our women, foundresses who all went after the poor, the sick, the rejected children. They found the sacrament where other people were running away. And, you know, in our living school here in Albuquerque, we found the highest percentage of our students are from evangelical background. And I always wonder, why do evangelicals listen to me? Because they admit that it was very hard at first, but if I talk to them about it, it's Catholic sacramentalism which appeals to them so much. And it's so beautiful to them.
- [45:02]
A
Yeah. I would answer the same way. And I would say to Michael, would you?
- [45:05]
B
Well, that's a compliment. Thank you.
- [45:07]
A
Yeah, of course. And I would say, you know, I can only answer for myself. I'm addressing Michael, that, you know, it's the faith I'm born into. But for me, one of the things that I find really appealing, which is kind of an understatement, is, as you said, Richard, the sacraments, the sacramental life, the sacramental understanding of God's presence in the world. The saints are hugely important. And also for me, it is the apostolic succession. It is this idea that the church goes all the way back to Jesus Christ. And I really believe that, and I really rely on that. But it's also being able to be in a community with people like you. Richard, you'll appreciate this. I was quoting Isaac Hecker, the founder of the Paulists for many years, right, saying that being in a church and being in the Catholic Church helps to connect and correct. And the correct is that sometimes the church encourages us to do things that we don't want to do. Care for the poor, care for the marginalized. And it also connects us to a community, you know, with people like Richard Rohr and all sorts of people. And anyway, I mentioned that to one of the Paulists, and he said, I don't think Isaac Hecker ever said that, but I thought, well, I read it somewhere. So there's the connection and the correction that I think come with the church. Come with any church. But for me, the Catholic Church is my community.
- [46:33]
B
Let me just put a P.S. on that. You were saying it already, but I find the Catholic Church, and I say this to my Orthodox friends. I am an Orthodox bishop friend, and my Protestant and Evangelical friends. We have the biggest yard in which to move around. Every saint, every century gives us more room to move around. And for that, I'm forever grateful. We are, after all is said and done, after all of our prejudices and mistakes, we are Catholic.
- [47:15]
A
Richard, I just want to thank you for your time with us today and for all, really. I want to thank you on behalf of so many of our listeners and our viewers of the spiritual life who rely on you. I read your daily reflections every morning, and I just want to thank you personally for. For really helping to open up Jesus, God and the church for me and for so many people. So thank you so much.
- [47:40]
B
You make it a joy. My gosh, it's felt like five minutes. Thank you, Jim. Keep doing your good work.
- [47:49]
A
I'll try with your prayers. God bless you.
- [47:51]
B
You've got them. God Bless.
- [48:02]
A
I'd like to let you know that I have a new book out, a memoir called Work in Progress. It's the story of finding work through a variety of crazy summer jobs like busboy, dishwasher, caddy, factory worker and many more and eventually finding God. Basically it's a light hearted spiritual memoir about growing up in the 60s, 70s and 80s and is available in print, ebook and audio anywhere books are sold. I really hope you enjoy Work in Progress. The Spiritual Life with Father James Martin is produced by Maggie Van Doren, Sebastian Gomes and myself, production assistants from Kevin Christopher Robles and Will Gualtieri. Adam Buckmuller engineers the show. The theme score is courtesy of Teddy Abrams and Nate Faring. You can follow me across social media amesmartinsj and you can read a reflection I wrote on this episode@americamagazine.org or by clicking the link on the show notes. Thanks so much and God bless you.