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The Sporkful
Reheat: What's "Poor People's Food"?
00:39:07
Nicole Taylor went through a phase where she rejected the soul food she grew up with. She called it all "slave food." Truth is, we all make judgments about what food is for which people, whether or not we realize it.
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- [00:01]
Dan Pashman
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- [01:37]
Rosie Perez
Sirius xm podcasts.
- [01:45]
Dan Pashman
Hey, it's Dan, back with another Sporkful reheat for you, and this one is a doubleheader. We are revisiting two episodes we originally made as part of a series called Other People's Food. This series got a lot of attention when it came out. We got a lot of great feedback on it. It was sort of our first foray, I think, into more substantive, more serious, more long form types of explorations of complicated topics. So I'm excited to let some of you hear it for the first time. And this one came by request from a listener named Zahita, who wrote, I was intrigued to find that the episode Other People's Food Part 2, what's Poor People's Food? Was mentioned in certain discourse about cooking, budgeting and perceptions of quote unquote ethnic ingredients. This insight would be timely in this period of uncertainty and unrest about American identity and economic Fragility. Thank you so much for the request, Sahita. We'll play that episode in the first half of our show today. Then we'll revisit our episode with actress Rosie Perez from that same series. In our conversation, Rosie opens up about her personal experiences with stereotypes around food and culture. Of course. Remember, if there's an episode of the Sporkful you want us to pull out of the deep freezer and share, let us know. Clearly, we take requests. We're taking one today. Send me a voice memo or email to helloporkful.com thanks so much and enjoy these two episodes from our series Other People's Food.
- [03:04]
Nicole Taylor
Definitely. When I became, like, a teenager and went off to college, I totally did not eat any pork. I called it all slave food.
- [03:13]
Dan Pashman
This is Nicole Taylor. She's the African American author of the Up South Cookbook. She grew up in Athens, Georgia, lives in New York now.
- [03:20]
Nicole Taylor
I'm like, I'm not eating the old school neck bones and rice stuff now that all these fancy chefs are doing in their restaurants. I just thought it was like, you know, it was poor people's food. I didn't have enough education about what that food meant for my mother and for my aunts and, you know, the whole entire community. This is the food that reminded them of when things were, you know, really happy.
- [03:45]
Dan Pashman
And what changed?
- [03:46]
Nicole Taylor
I moved to New York City. That's when it. That's when it all started. The longer I got in New York, the more I longed for home and the food of home.
- [03:57]
Dan Pashman
Today on the Sporkful, our series Other People People's Food continues. How does what we think about different people affect what we think about their food? When other people have stereotypes about our food, how does that change the way we feel about ourselves? And how does all this affect what we actually end up eating? We'll find out. Stick around. From WNYC studios, this is the Spork. It's not for foodies. It's for eaters. I'm Dan Pashman. Each week on our show, we obsess about food to learn more about people. This is part two of our series Other People's Food. Today, we're going to focus on the ways that food and identity overlap, the ways that stereotypes of people affect perceptions of food, and how all that feeds back into how we feel about ourselves and the food that ends up on our plates. As I said, Nicole Taylor grew up in Athens, Georgia. Her Up South Cookbook draws from her Southern upbringing as well as her eight years spent living in Brooklyn. Her Food isn't easily categorized. That's the way she likes it.
- [05:09]
Nicole Taylor
I do embrace the word authentic, and that means being your authentic self, but not authentic in terms of food. Everybody has their own thing of how they make a certain thing, like fried chicken. There are a million gazillion ways to do fried chicken. You know, I use coconut milk in my. In my fried chicken.
- [05:28]
Dan Pashman
Can we just, like, talk for a minute about fried chicken?
- [05:30]
Nicole Taylor
Oh, let's.
- [05:35]
Dan Pashman
What is your relationship with fried chicken, Nicole?
- [05:38]
Rosie Perez
Oh, my gosh.
- [05:39]
Nicole Taylor
First of all, I did not have fried chicken. Every day. I think a lot of people. I mean, when I moved to New York. This is a very, very funny story, Dan. I cannot. I can't tell you how many times people come up to me and say, where can I find the best fried chicken?
- [05:53]
Dan Pashman
No.
- [05:54]
Nicole Taylor
Yes. And I'm like, I guess they asked me that because I'm from the South. And I'm like, really, Nicole?
- [05:59]
Dan Pashman
You think that's the only reason?
- [06:02]
Nicole Taylor
Well, I mean, why. Because I'm a black woman maybe. So you want me to keep it real? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Why they keep asking me where the best fried chicken? I'm like, ask all these other people in New York that have been here forever. I don't know. I've only been here a year or so. And so my clever response would be, in my kitchen.
- [06:20]
Dan Pashman
It is interesting that, like, it is this food that is kind of fraught in some ways and also so beloved. Like, have you ever been in a situation where you felt, like, self conscious about eating fried chicken or loving fried chicken?
- [06:36]
Nicole Taylor
So, I mean, I grew up always knowing that when you're around white people and other folks don't eat fried chicken and watermelon. Sometimes.
- [06:43]
Rosie Perez
Yeah.
- [06:43]
Nicole Taylor
If I'm going out to a business dinner with someone else, I won't order the fried chicken. Because I'm like. They assume that I'm gonna order that. So I'm like, oh, I'm just gonna get the salad or the fish, because there was a shame associated with those foods.
- [06:56]
Dan Pashman
How many times would we have to go out to eat together before you have fried chicken with me?
- [07:00]
Nicole Taylor
Oh, a lot. A lot of times that I would have to curse and, like, get drunk before I feel comfortable eating the fried chicken.
- [07:08]
Dan Pashman
What if I ordered fried chicken? That would make you feel more comfortable?
- [07:12]
Nicole Taylor
No. As a black American, a black woman from the south, you know, particularly when you're doing food stuff, you never want to get put into a box. And so you're constantly aware of kind of cultural foods and what. At least I am how they play into other people's psyche. I'm proud of fried chicken, but yeah, there's still things about my cultural foods that I'm aware other folks just, they still have those stereotypes and I don't feel like explaining. So I would just rather order a salad.
- [07:44]
Dan Pashman
You know, the truth is those judgments about what foods are for what type of people, which foods are for poor people, to use Nicole's words, we all do that in one way or another, even if we don't realize it.
- [07:59]
Professor Krishnendu Ray
Most Americans would hesitate to pay $30 for Chinese food, but they wouldn't bat an eyelid to pay hundreds of dollars sometimes. Over the last couple of years, the most expensive New York City restaurants have been Japanese restaurants.
- [08:13]
Dan Pashman
This is Professor Krishnendu Ray, chair of the Food Studies department at nyu. He says there's a reason why we're willing to pay so much more for some cultures foods than others. And it's actually not about the food at all.
- [08:24]
Professor Krishnendu Ray
Most of the Japanese we are familiar with are business folks, are executives. But right now, most Americans associate Chinese food with relatively impoverished Chinese immigrants. If a group of people are doing well, and if a country is doing well economically, we tend to upgrade our estimation of their culture. And that feeds back into whether we consider it cheap ethnic food or we consider it expensive foreign food.
- [08:54]
Dan Pashman
This idea that some foods are perceived as higher class than others. Professor Ray calls this the hierarchy of taste. He says over time it changes.
- [09:04]
Professor Krishnendu Ray
Give it 20 more years. Chinese immigration is going to slow down like it happened with Europe European immigration. And once that happens, we don't meet relatively poor and impoverished Chinese here. Our valuation of Chinese food is going to change in terms of class terms. That happened with Italian food. That Italian food, in fact became prestigious only after Italian immigration effectively stopped of poor people.
- [09:32]
Dan Pashman
Okay, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I mean, generations ago, Italian people were made fun of for smelling like garlic.
- [09:38]
Professor Krishnendu Ray
Exactly.
- [09:39]
Dan Pashman
And their food was considered low class.
- [09:40]
Professor Krishnendu Ray
Yeah. Nutritionists and public health specialists were full of disdain for Italian food as not good for us because they were eating all this spicy food. In those days, this was considered especially garlic. And the argument was that all this garlic led to craving for alcohol. And what I like about American culture is in fact the possibility of breaking through it, which I think makes American food very interesting and much more open minded than many of the nationalist cuisines of other parts of the world.
- [10:12]
Dan Pashman
You know, with every new immigrant cuisine, as it breaks through to mainstream American food culture, there's often one dish that's sort of like the tip of the spear. For sushi, I think of California rolls. For Indian food, chicken tikka masala. For Thai food, pad Thai. I asked Professor Ray what these foods have in common.
- [10:32]
Professor Krishnendu Ray
Let's say chicken tikka masala, which is, it goes through a series of translations where it becomes sweeter, it becomes redder, it becomes less spicy. Because we have a natural proclivity towards sweeter and fattier things. It's easier to eat them, drink them. That will allow the translation to happen, which is also a form of bastardization or hybridization. And then maybe after a generation, you will have its redefinition.
- [10:59]
Dan Pashman
Right. And then someone comes along and says, no, no, no, I'm gonna give you the authentic. Exactly.
- [11:03]
Professor Krishnendu Ray
Now, the new wave Indian restaurants are no longer calling the chicken tikka masala chicken tikka masala. They're calling it butter chicken, like I used to eat when I was in Delhi University. In Delhi, in Hindu College, I used to eat butter chicken.
- [11:14]
Dan Pashman
That's what they called it.
- [11:15]
Professor Krishnendu Ray
That's the closest thing to chicken tikka masala.
- [11:18]
Dan Pashman
So new food arrives, gets watered down, gets popular, then gets redone to be more, quote, unquote, authentic. But Professor Ray says for a culture's food to make it that far today, it needs more than sugar and fat. It needs a good social media strategy. Some dishes just don't work on Instagram.
- [11:36]
Professor Krishnendu Ray
Lot of third world cuisines, lot of peasant cuisines that taste fantastic, does not stand up on a plate, so does not look very good. You can't make a very pretty picture out of it, which I think also leads to a loss of certain kinds of food. I personally find stews and food that falls flat on its face. Saucy food, saucy food. The most beautiful food, the most tasty food. Okay, but those foods don't look very good most of the time in a picture.
- [12:07]
Dan Pashman
The reason they don't look very good actually comes down to the basic rules of photography. Like here, I'll give you an example. Beef stew sitting in the pot. The meat and the potatoes and the carrots are all submerged, and all you see is this flat brown liquid. Have you ever tried to take a picture of your beef stew to post online? It is impossible to make it look good. Okay, but now I want you to picture something different. Picture a bright white plate. And on that plate you have a pile of nice big juicy chunks of cooked beef. And maybe that takes up a third of the plate. Then you have a pile of carrots, cooked carrots, bright orange. And then the rest of the plate you have a little mound of potatoes, cooked potatoes, maybe they still have the skins on them. Then you take that beef broth from the stew and you drizzle it over the food on the plate. That looks good, right? You can picture that you're getting hungry just picturing that it's all the same ingredients as the beef stew, but now it's three dimensional instead of flat. It's colorful instead of monochromatic. That same principle gives chicken tandoori a leg up over dal and blintzes an advantage over borscht. And what Professor Ray is saying is that some cultures foods have way more dishes like beef stew than others, and that makes a difference.
- [13:25]
Professor Krishnendu Ray
Media is absolutely central to propagation and popularity of a cuisine. And what becomes important. And with the excessive, I think, visualization, the role of the visual in the current media, it constrains what we pick from a cuisine.
- [13:42]
Dan Pashman
The other constraint on what gets picked comes from the food. Cookbooks, food blogs, tv, newspapers, and, yes, podcasts. As much as we hear about the democratization of media, there are still gatekeepers, and some people have to break through more gates than others. Which brings us back to Nicole Taylor, the cookbook author we heard from earlier in the show. She and I were joined by Chitra Agrawal, who writes a food blog called abcds of Cooking. ABCD stands for American Born Confused Desi. Desi is a slang term for a South Asian. Chitra's currently working on her first cookbook.
- [14:16]
Chitra Agrawal
I wanted to do a book specifically on South Indian home cooking. And I think that the US Market in general has not kind of gone to the point where they understand the regional differences of Indian cooking. I mean, when we were trying to sell the book through, it was, oh, well, we already have an Indian author, so we're gonna pass on that.
- [14:40]
Dan Pashman
People said that to you?
- [14:42]
Chitra Agrawal
Well, they said it to my agent.
- [14:44]
Dan Pashman
Right. Ellen, what do you think when you hear that?
- [14:49]
Chitra Agrawal
Well, I mean, it doesn't make me feel good because I also feel that it's that you get pigeonholed into a group. Even though my book may have different content and a different perspective and talking about a whole other type of cooking from India, if there's another author that is doing an Indian cookbook, then we just get lumped into the same pile. They probably wouldn't flinch if it was, oh, we have a Southern Italian cookbook coming out and a northern Italian cookbook coming out.
- [15:22]
Dan Pashman
Right.
- [15:22]
Chitra Agrawal
Most likely. And I mean, I grew up, I'm a lifelong vegetarian, and I cook food that's not Indian. Of course, in My house. But I feel like it will be a hard sell for me to write a general vegetarian cookbook or to sell that through versus selling through an Indian cookbook, even though I'm an American.
- [15:45]
Dan Pashman
What about you, Nicole? What were some of the challenges you faced in trying to get your book published?
- [15:49]
Nicole Taylor
So I get the book proposal, we have the book proposal, and we send it out, and the first thing people say is, well, is this a soul food book? I felt like at first I was being put into a category, and I almost was at the point of like, okay, I'm cool with this. I'm cool with changing my entire book. And then luckily, I just kind of stayed in there. And I'm sure my agent probably was like, oh, my gosh, here this girl keeps talking about race. But it's. It's true. I mean, people are thinking about that.
- [16:22]
Dan Pashman
So let's talk a bit about the way both of your guys work is marketed. One of the things that I learned in my experience that I think does to some degree dovetail with what you guys are saying. Not to suggest that I've had the same experience, but marketing people who are to a point doing their jobs, which is just to try to sell as many of these things as possible, they're always gonna try to simplify things and make them feel familiar and similar to other things that consumers can easily recognize. And I get that there are downsides to that, but I think that some of that happens independent of race and ethnicity and culture. Is that fair to say trajectory?
- [16:59]
Chitra Agrawal
I would think so. I mean, I feel like I've had a lot of friends who have written cookbooks. Their subject matter may be, you know, less culturally driven, but they still run into that same issue.
- [17:13]
Dan Pashman
And they're very. They're very risk averse. You know, like they want to buy something that's like 50% the same as something that's sold. Nicole, you seemed a little more skeptical about the idea that when marketers try to simplify some of your work, that it's sort of the ugly necessity of marketing.
- [17:33]
Nicole Taylor
I totally agree with what you're saying. I think that the race factor is another layer to them, another line, another something that they're thinking about. The marketing team is sitting there thinking, who's gonna buy her book? Is this a black?
- [18:12]
Dan Pashman
That's Nicole Taylor. She's the author of the up south cookbook Chasing Dixie in a Brooklyn Kitchen. It's not a black or a white book. It's just a delicious book. And yes, it does have the fried chicken recipe that Nicole mentioned with the coconut milk. It also has her recipe for chaat masala popcorn. So you can't put this book in a box. People just get it. It's called the Up South Cookbook. We also heard today from Chitra Agrawal. Her food blog is the abcds of Cooking. She also has her own line of condiments. She makes artisanal achar. Achar is basically like an Indian relish. She makes roasted garlic achar, rhubarb, ginger achar, and the one that I am currently in love with, tomato achar. It's spicy and salty and sweet and tangy. I've been spreading it on sandwiches, dabbing it on eggs. I mean you can put it on anything. And they ship nationwide. People get some@brooklyn deli.com that's Delhi D E L H I My thanks as well to Professor Krishnendu Ray, who you heard from in this episode. He's the chair of the NYU Food Studies Department. His new book is called the Ethnic Restaurateur. Coming up, my conversation with actress Rosie Perez. That's after the break. Stick around.
- [19:27]
Rosie Perez
It's time to open up a can of advertisements.
- [19:34]
Dan Pashman
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- [24:03]
Rosie Perez
Oh, it doesn't matter.
- [24:05]
Dan Pashman
You've done more talk shows than I have. Yeah, I feel like usually that. Yeah, we'll leave it at that. Well, first of all, Rosie, I want to thank you for being here. You guys should know Rosie has been up since 5 o' clock in the morning. She's at a 12 hour TV shoot and still managed to come here to be with us tonight. So thank you, Rosie. So what have you been eating lately?
- [24:29]
Rosie Perez
Oh, my God. What have I not been eating lately is the question. Actually, I'm under the weather right now. I have a little bit of cold, so I have been eating. One of my cold remedies from my Aunt Anna that you've read in the book is garlic soup.
- [24:47]
Dan Pashman
Oh, yeah.
- [24:47]
Rosie Perez
Oh, he said, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's nasty as hell, but you know, you know, but if you drop an egg in it, it makes it a little bit more tasty.
- [24:55]
Dan Pashman
That's so interesting because my wife's family is from Slovakia and they're all about garlic soup with an egg in it too.
- [25:00]
Rosie Perez
Really?
- [25:00]
Dan Pashman
In Czechoslovakia.
- [25:01]
Rosie Perez
Who knew?
- [25:03]
Dan Pashman
I know. How do you do it?
- [25:05]
Rosie Perez
How do I do it?
- [25:06]
Dan Pashman
Yeah, yeah, tell me about it.
- [25:07]
Rosie Perez
What do you mean, how do I do it? You put freaking garlic in chicken broth and then you drop an egg in it.
- [25:13]
Dan Pashman
Okay.
- [25:13]
Rosie Perez
You know, and no, really, I mean, that's basically it. But you put like a mess of garlic and the best way to do it is you put a couple of whole garlics in it. But you also try to crush as many garlics as possible. Pieces of garlics in there too. And just let it simmer, don't let it boil, just let, let it simmer. So all the oil comes out of the garlic and you have all the right stuff that can go into your body. But you know, I am Puerto Rican. I don't know if you've noticed that, but I still people, you know, it's so insulting when people go, do you still eat rice and beans? And I go, are you still an idiot? You know, yes, I still eat rice and beans. So yes, I still eat a lot of Puerto Rican food, but I like all kinds of food.
- [25:59]
Dan Pashman
Can I ask you why exactly is that insulting to you?
- [26:04]
Rosie Perez
Because they wouldn't ask an American, you know, do you still eat meat and potatoes? You know, it's just. Why would you ask me that? You know, it's just. It's. You know, it's like, is that what you see? You don't see me as a human being first. You see me as rice and beans first. And so therefore, that's why it's insulting, you know? And it doesn't take away my pride for my culture at all, you know, but it's just. It's just an asinine question. And I get asked a lot of asinine questions, unfortunately, when it comes to my nationality. You know what I mean? What nationality are you?
- [26:43]
Dan Pashman
Jewish, I guess. An ethnic group. Yeah.
- [26:45]
Rosie Perez
Well, wouldn't it be insulting if I said, did you have gefelte fish today?
- [26:50]
Dan Pashman
To be honest, I don't know.
- [26:53]
Rosie Perez
Okay, if you were asked if you had gabeltevich every single day by someone you never met before, you would get tired of it.
- [27:01]
Dan Pashman
Yes, I would definitely get tired. And I agree. I would certainly think it was a dumb question to ask. But what's interesting, this is one of the things I'm glad you brought this up, because this is something we've sort of been exploring in different ways in the series, is if someone did that to me or someone came up to me and was like, oh, what, you're Jewish? Do you eat bagels all day? Or bagels and lox? Like, I would be like, no, I live in America. I eat all different kinds of things.
- [27:20]
Rosie Perez
Just, like, by the way, do you know who H and H bagels are? You know, H and H, the famous H and H bagels? It is freaking Hernandez and Hernandez, right? I swear to goodness. I swear. I swear. Holla to all the Latin people out there, you know? But seriously, it's Hernandez and Hernandez. But they knew if they put Hernandez and Hernandez bagels, no one would buy them, right? Cause they know people are freaking racist. So. But if it's H and H, they're
- [27:48]
Dan Pashman
like, oh, but would you go to eat at Goldberg's Puerto Rican restaurant?
- [27:52]
Rosie Perez
Yes, I would, because I'm from Brooklyn. Chino Latino, baby. Everybody crossed in that island. I mean, everybody did. So you know what I mean? Like, it's. You know, only if they could cook it well and they respected the culture and they knew how to do it, right? I would go in there if they didn't. I would. I wouldn't.
- [28:13]
Dan Pashman
I guess what I'm sort of trying to get at And I don't know. I don't. This is what I'm trying to wrap my brain around, and maybe you can help me is like the sensitivity around that issue of sort of being put into a box based on your. Anyone's race or ethnicity and people making stupid assumptions or asking dumb questions about the food that you eat. It's like, I can honestly say that, like, while if someone asked me that question and those types of questions, I would not be offended. I might think it was dumb or a little ignorant, but I wouldn't be offended. And I don't know, is that just me, or is there some other reason, some other difference?
- [28:51]
Rosie Perez
I think it's because maybe you're not of color. And I think that there's a difference. You know what I mean? There's a difference in there because it's an assumption that you have never ventured out and haven't eaten outside of your culture, that you're limited, you know, in the ways of the world. And so it has a lot of negative connotations to it. So I think that. That. So it's a little different. Do you understand what I'm saying?
- [29:17]
Dan Pashman
Yeah. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
- [29:19]
Rosie Perez
And so, you know, and especially asking a Puerto Rican from New York, I mean, it's like, come on, you turn every corner. There's a different type of food that's offered to you. If they assumed that I had never eaten caviar when I was younger, then I would get it. I wouldn't be insulted. Well, I'm from Bushwick. No, I haven't eaten caviar, you know.
- [29:48]
Dan Pashman
Coming up, my conversation with Rosie Perez continues. She'll talk about the dual existence that was her childhood, where she went back and forth between her aunt's very Puerto Rican home in Brooklyn and an abusive Catholic convent.
- [30:01]
Rosie Perez
The nuns tried to beat the Spanish language out of me, out of most of you know. And I remember there was a joke, a terrible joke. I said, oh, my God, I got punished forever for it. Because she was like. I said, why do we always have to speak English? She goes, because it's the language that's in the Bible. I go, jesus isn't bilingual. I'm confused. How the hell is everyone else gonna understand? I'm smack, smack, smack.
- [30:27]
Dan Pashman
Plus, she'll talk about connecting with. With her roots through food. On her first trip to Puerto Rico as a child. Stay with us.
- [30:43]
Chitra Agrawal
Hope you're hungry.
- [30:44]
Dan Pashman
Cause it's time for some ads.
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- [30:59]
Rosie Perez
Fantastic.
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Dan Pashman
You're hired. And you're hired.
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Liberty Mutual Advertiser
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- [31:54]
Dan Pashman
Hey, everyone, check out this guy and his bird. What is this, your first date? Oh, no.
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Liberty Mutual Advertiser
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- [32:04]
Rosie Perez
Yeah, the bird looks out of your league.
- [32:06]
Liberty Mutual Advertiser
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- [32:09]
Dan Pashman
Liberty, Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Now back to my conversation with Rosie Perez. Rosie's parents were never married. In fact, they had split up by the time she was born. She spent the first three years of her life living with her aunt in Brooklyn. Although she thought her aunt was her mother, her birth mother suffered from mental illness. And when Rosie was three, her birth mother came back into the picture and had Rosie sent to live in a Catholic convent in upstate New York that Rosie called the home. And Rosie spent almost 10 years shuttling back and forth between the nuns upstate and her aunt back in Brooklyn, where she spent her summers and holidays and some weekends. It was a split existence. Rosie says her aunt's home was very loving, very Puerto Rican. But in the convent, the nuns tried to force every ounce of Puerto Rican culture out of her. It was an abusive place.
- [33:06]
Rosie Perez
The first night, I saw a little girl get beat viciously with a paddle until her little bottom bled because she peed the bed. And when it came for mealtime, I really, I didn't want to eat. And then when I was presented with the food, they put this gray looking slab of whatever in front of me. And it had gray looking gravy on top. And I said, what is that? And they said, that's meat. And I said, meat's not brown, it's white. Because we were so poor, I never had a steak, so I thought that meat was chicken or pork. And they said, eat it. And if you don't eat it, you're gonna get, you know, punished and spanked. And I just saw the other girl get beaten. So I tried to eat it. And I remember just. I threw up all over the plate. And it was, it was really. And you know, one of the girls was like, you can't throw up. They're make you eat your throat. I go, no, they won't. And they, they used to do that. And even to this day I have like this PTSD kind of reaction to red meat, which is kind of good because it is disgusting anyway. But yeah, so it was strange. It was very, very strange existence. And my salvation was the weekends and the summers and the winter breaks because I got to go home. At that time we lived in Williamsburg south on Lee Avenue in Wallebout. And I smelled, you know, penil, which is roasted pork shoulder, and the rice and beans. I knew I was home. I knew I was home. And I would just stuff my face, you know, And I became like a really greedy slob, you know, And I still am a really greedy slob. And it was because of that it's good food and colorful food and good smelling food and hearty food that that blessed your tummy and your soul.
- [35:03]
Dan Pashman
Tell me about some of your memories of being in the kitchen with your aunt.
- [35:06]
Rosie Perez
Oh, that was everything. That was everything. I used to love how she would pull a chair up to the stove and let me wash the rice. I loved that. And I would watch her cook and I learned every little thing. And even as I got older, I did not know how to use any type of measuring tools because she would use her hands to measure everything. And she would say, you see the first line in the middle of your hand? I go, yeah. She goes, the second line, that's a teaspoon. Like that. Just that much. And if it goes over here by where it hits your finger, that's a tablespoon. And you know, because if she was like, how much did it say? A teaspoon? Okay, like that door there goes, okay, put it in. You know, and, you know, and it was our special time, just laughing and talking endlessly. Of hours of just cooking and especially on the weekends. And that's why I'm a fabulous cook now, because I was never instructed. It was just part of the conversation of how I learned how to cook. And I think that's a beautiful thing. And I think that art of learning to cook through family and conversation is lost. It's lost. It's like a lost art, you know, It's a. It's just. It's a loss. I don't know what other word I can say but love. It's a loss of love, you know, because that's what makes food good, is when you put the love into it and you put the time into it and you put the experience and then there's a story, you know, to the meal.
- [36:45]
Dan Pashman
Yeah, that's well said. Tell me about your first trip to Puerto Rico.
- [36:54]
Rosie Perez
My first trip to Puerto Rico was very, very bittersweet because I was just kind of nervous that my father was going to treat me differently because my sister and brother and they had. From his wife were down there. And I was.
- [37:17]
Dan Pashman
I'm starting up, but just. So everyone. So this was your birth father?
- [37:20]
Rosie Perez
My birth father.
- [37:20]
Dan Pashman
You were going down to Puerto Rico to be with him every summer?
- [37:23]
Rosie Perez
Yeah.
- [37:23]
Dan Pashman
And how old were you the first time you went?
- [37:25]
Rosie Perez
I was very, very young.
- [37:26]
Dan Pashman
Yeah.
- [37:27]
Rosie Perez
I was still in priest in elementary school.
- [37:29]
Dan Pashman
Six, seven years old.
- [37:30]
Rosie Perez
Six, seven years old. And so.
- [37:32]
Dan Pashman
And he was now with his wife at the time. And he had his own kids down there.
- [37:35]
Rosie Perez
The wife that he had before he met my mother.
- [37:37]
Dan Pashman
Well, okay.
- [37:38]
Rosie Perez
Scandalous. That's why you see all this fire. I'm sorry, what were you supposed to.
- [37:52]
Dan Pashman
Right, yes. So it was bittersweet and you were nervous.
- [37:56]
Rosie Perez
It turned red.
- [37:58]
Dan Pashman
I'm blushing, Rosie.
- [38:00]
Rosie Perez
Yes, I was nervous because, you know, you're like, oh, you know, they have my father all the time. I only have my father during visitors. My first time there, I was very, very nervous. And I remember my stepmother making me so upset because she was making arrozi candules, that's rice, whipped PGPs. And she was making pastele. It's like, I can't describe it. The closest thing is maybe like to a tamale, but that is not really. Not made with cornmeal, but made with green plantains. And she made me. She made me a hamburger and French fries. And I remember I got so angry at her. I got so mad at her. They were treating me like if I was American. And that was so. That hurt me. I mean, it hurt me and I didn't know how to handle it. And I was a terrible brat about it. I was so mean to her. But, you know, I Remember, it was during the holidays, and we went into the town square. All the families in Aguadilla had tables lined up on the perimeters, and everyone brought their special dish to be presented as a community. And I ate so much, my stomach was so big. And my aunt was like, please, you look like a little pig. You're gonna throw up. And I was like, no, I'm not. Not this time. I am not throwing up anything. And I ate and ate, and I remember kept saying, what? What's this? And what's that? And what's this and what's that? And I wanted to know everything. And it was really special to me because I felt that I belonged. I felt like an alien inside the convent, which we called the home. But when I went to Puerto Rico, I was like, this is me. This is me. All the tastes are familiar, the smells are familiar, and even the new foods that I was taking in just felt right to me, and I felt a part of things, you know? And when I went to my Tia Aya's house up in the. Up in the hills, you know, helping her smash the garlic, I remember as a little girl, I just started crying, and she just smiled at me, and she goes, this is who you are, Rosita. You don't have to cry. And I was like, oh, I should have put that in my book. Did I put that in there? Did I put that in there?
- [40:35]
Dan Pashman
Well, this can be the second book. You definitely talked about the hamburger and fries in the book.
- [40:38]
Rosie Perez
Yeah. Even though I'm the first person born here in America, I'm Puerto Rican first. I'm a Puerto Rican American. And even as a little girl, I understood that.
- [40:49]
Dan Pashman
Is there something that you cook today that especially makes you think of your aunt that you lived with in Brooklyn?
- [40:57]
Rosie Perez
That's a very good question. Every single Puerto Rican dish I cook makes me think of her, and I talk about her every. Every time I. Every time I cook. And you can ask my husband and, you know, my cousin, Six, though, when he comes over, he's irritating, but I love him, you know? And, you know, but when he comes over, I always cook for him, too. That's how I say to you, I know this sounds weird, but if I cook for you, it means that I like you. So if you come over my house, I'm gonna be respectful and offer you a cup of coffee or water. And if I really don't like you, I go, all right, you good? You know? But if I really love you and I really care about you, or if I really want to get to know you before you walk in that door. I already have a meal waiting for you, and my aunt taught me that too.
- [41:53]
Dan Pashman
Well, Rosie, it means so much to us that you came here after a long day and it's been so great to have you here to share some of your stories. Rosie's autobiography is called Handbook for an Unpredictable Life. Rosie's autobiography is called Handbook for an Unpredictable. Rosie's autobiography is called Shut up. Let him get him out.
- [42:14]
Rosie Perez
Oh, my God.
- [42:15]
Dan Pashman
Now we're gonna have to leave this whole part in.
- [42:17]
Rosie Perez
You know, save the laughter and applause when I leave like I was fabulous.
- [42:22]
Dan Pashman
That's right. That's right. Handbook for an Unpredictable Life. How I survived sister Renata and my crazy mother and still came out smiling with great hair. Let's have a big hand for Rosie Perez.
- [42:30]
Rosie Perez
Thank.
- [42:35]
Chitra Agrawal
You.
- [42:56]
Dan Pashman
This show is a production of WNYC Studios in the Sporkful. It's produced by Ann Sani and me. Special thanks to Paula Schuman. Until next time, I'm Dan Pashman.
- [43:05]
Rosie Perez
I'm Shelita from Wallkill, New York, reminding you to eat more, eat better, and eat more.
- [43:30]
Dan Pashman
This reheat was produced by Gianna Palmer. The team that produces the Sporkful today includes me, along with managing producer Emma Morgenstern and senior producer Andres o'. Hara. Our engineer is Jared o'.
- [43:41]
Rosie Perez
Connell.
- [43:41]
Dan Pashman
Music help from Black Label Music. The Sporkful is a production of Sirius XM podcasts. Our executive producer is Camille Stanley. And hey, did you know you can listen to the Sporkful on the Sirius XM app? Yes, the SiriusXM app. It has all your favorite podcasts, plus over 200 ad free music channels curated by genre and era, plus live sports coverage. Does your podcasting app have that? And there's interviews with a list, stars and so much more. It's everything you want in a podcast app and music app all rolled into one. Right now, Sporkful listeners can get three months free of the Sirius XM app by going to SiriusXM.com Sporkful until next time, I'm Dan Pashman.
- [44:18]
Rosie Perez
Foreign.
- [44:24]
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- [44:54]
Liberty Mutual Advertiser
And Doug, there's nowhere I wouldn't go to help someone customize and save on car insurance with Liberty Mutual. Even if it means sitting front row at a comedy show.
- [45:03]
Nicole Taylor
Hey, everyone.
- [45:04]
Dan Pashman
Check out this guy and his bird. What is this, your first date? Oh, no.
- [45:08]
Liberty Mutual Advertiser
We help people customize and save on car insurance with Liberty Mutual together. We're married. Me to a human, him to a bird.
- [45:14]
Rosie Perez
Yeah, the bird looks out of your league.
- [45:15]
Liberty Mutual Advertiser
Anyways, get a quote@libertymutual.com or with your local agent.
- [45:19]
Dan Pashman
Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty.