The Spies Who Invaded Suburbia | Former illegal spy Jack Barsky on years undercover | 4

Summary

The Spy Who Invaded Suburbia: Jack Barsky's Undercover Journey

Podcast: The Spy Who
Episode: The Spies Who Invaded Suburbia | Former Illegal Spy Jack Barsky on Years Undercover | 4
Host: Charlie Higson
Release Date: March 18, 2025

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of The Spy Who, host Charlie Higson delves into the enigmatic world of espionage with Jack Barsky, a former Russian sleeper agent who spent nearly two decades undercover in the United States. This in-depth conversation explores Jack's recruitment, his life infiltrating American society, the personal conflicts that led to his defection, and his reflections on a life built on deception.

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Jack Barsky: From Albrecht Dittrich to a Sleeper Agent

Jack Barsky, born Albrecht Dittrich in East Germany, became one of the most successful Russian illegals operating in the United States during the Cold War. He assumed multiple aliases, including William Dyson and Henry Van Randall, to mask his true identity.

Jack Barsky [04:17]: "The Russians still do that. They steal identities from individuals who passed away early... Unfortunately, in the United States, it was really easy to get the birth certificate of Jack Barski."

Jack explains the meticulous process the KGB used to create believable identities, emphasizing the importance of official documentation like Social Security cards and driver’s licenses to blend seamlessly into American life.

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Recruitment and Intensive Training

Unaware of his destiny as a spy, Jack recounts his unexpected recruitment by a KGB agent while studying chemistry in East Germany.

Jack Barsky [06:10]: "I had never even had one tiny thought of ever becoming a spy. That was just outside of my universe, period."

The recruitment process involved rigorous training in Moscow, where Jack honed his espionage skills over five years. Despite the excellent tradecraft training—covering Morse code, shortwave radio, and surveillance detection—the KGB struggled to adequately prepare him for assimilating into American society.

Jack Barsky [13:34]: "The best training and the majority of my training was tradecraft... The other part they tried, but they failed miserously to teach me what it's like to live as an American."

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Infiltrating American Society

In 1978, Jack embarked on his mission to the United States, traveling under a Canadian passport before adopting the identity of Jack Barski. His journey was fraught with tension, particularly during his immigration interview.

Jack Barsky [19:14]: "Standing in that line... I would think it was the most stressful moment or stressful period of time in my entire life."

Jack successfully navigated the complexities of starting a new life in America, securing employment and gradually integrating into society. However, his path took a pivotal turn when he met Penelope, an American woman, leading to profound personal changes.

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Personal Life and the Conflict of Loyalties

Jack’s marriage to Penelope and the birth of their daughter, Chelsea, introduced a profound internal conflict. The love he developed for his American family clashed with his obligations to the KGB, ultimately prompting him to seek a way out of his clandestine life.

Jack Barsky [37:04]: "I cannot make changes, go back and undo what I did. Having lied to my mother, who, until the day she died, she didn't know what happened to me... there's just no way I can fix that."

This emotional upheaval culminated in Jack devising a clever ruse to extricate himself from his spy duties without endangering his new family or alerting the KGB to his defection.

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Exposure and Aftermath

Jack’s cover was eventually blown through leaked KGB archives, leading to intense FBI scrutiny. Despite the high stakes, Jack was not arrested but instead became a valuable informant for American intelligence.

Jack Barsky [35:51]: "My German family knew I was dead... I was deathly afraid of that."

Jack navigated the aftermath by maintaining his double life, ensuring his American family remained unaware of his true past. His daughter, Chelsea, later discovered her German heritage, bridging the two worlds Jack had long kept separate.

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Reflections on a Life of Espionage

In reflecting on his life as a spy, Jack expresses a sense of failure regarding his missions but acknowledges the personal redemption he found through his American family.

Jack Barsky [38:21]: "Love conquers all."

He contemplates the ethical implications of his deceptive life, recognizing the inherent unfairness and the profound personal costs associated with espionage.

Jack Barsky [37:04]: "The espionage world is full of lies. You gotta assume that everybody in this world lies to you."

Despite the regrets and the irreversible impact of his actions, Jack takes pride in his successful integration into American society and the positive contributions he made in his corporate career post-defection.

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Conclusion

Jack Barsky's story is a poignant exploration of loyalty, identity, and the human capacity for change. His journey from a Cold War agent to a devoted family man underscores the complex interplay between duty and personal fulfillment. This episode of The Spy Who offers a rare and intimate glimpse into the life of an undercover spy, highlighting the profound personal sacrifices and moral dilemmas inherent in the shadowy world of espionage.

Jack Barsky [38:52]: "It sounds trite, but it's absolutely 100% true. Love conquers all."

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Notable Quotes:

• Jack Barsky [04:44]: "The irony got even worse. After eight years of working in the US I was awarded $10,000. So I was awarded in the currency of the country that I was supposed to help destroy. Pretty bizarre, huh?"

• Jack Barsky [37:53]: "I cannot make changes, go back and undo what I did. Having lied to my mother... there's just no way I can fix that."

• Jack Barsky [38:21]: "Love conquers all."

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This episode masterfully captures the intricate balance between espionage and personal life, offering listeners an engaging and thought-provoking narrative about the true cost of living a life of deception.

Transcript

[Charlie Higson]

Wondery plus subscribers can binge full seasons of the Spy who early and ad free on Apple Podcasts or the Wondery app from Wondery. I'm Charlie Higson, spy, novelist, actor, comedian, and this is the Spy who. Thank you for joining us for our final episode of the Spies who Invaded Suburbia. The illegals were a group of Russian sleeper agents operating in the United States tasked with gathering intelligence and infiltrating key areas of American society. They looked like ordinary people. They worked, they had families, they drank with friends. But each was secretly driven by the need to collect sensitive information, attempt to shape U.S. policy and exploit vulnerabilities within the American government and its systems. Jack Barski, not the name he was born with, was possibly the most successful illegal. Using multiple aliases and intense espionage training, he entered America in 1978 with a long term aim of gathering intelligence and getting close to policymakers to influence them. As Ronald Reagan deemed the Soviet Union the evil Empire and Cold War, tensions escalated, Jack was ideally placed to begin America's destruction from the inside. But this was before his life was turned upside down by the arrival of an American born daughter, Chelsea. From that moment on, he wanted out. In this episode, I'm going to speak to Jack about what made him so driven to succeed in America, how he was recruited in East Germany, the emotional discipline required to be this kind of spy, and also the ethics of engaging in some pretty dark acts in a bid to gain the advantage over your enemy.

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[Charlie Higson]

Jack, thank you so much for joining me. Whereabouts are you?

[Jack Barski]

I'm just in the southern suburb of Austin, Texas.

[Charlie Higson]

How are you doing over there?

[Jack Barski]

I'm doing okay.

[Charlie Higson]

So, Jack, I'm calling you Jack, but your name by birth is Albrecht Ditterich. And we know that some illegals like Anna Chapman in our story use their real names. But that wasn't the case when you were operating. So you've been William Dyson, Henry Van Randall and Jack Barski, to name but a few. How were you getting these names?

[Jack Barski]

The Russians still do that. They steal identities from individuals who passed away early. Jack Barski passed away at the age of 11. There was barely a record of him other than having been born. Or they also use individuals who could have passed away at an older age but in a foreign country, then acquired the documentation. Unfortunately, in the United States, it was really easy to get the birth certificate of Jack Barski.

[Charlie Higson]

So who was getting these certificates? Is this KGB agents in America?

[Jack Barski]

Yes, KGB agents, particularly. This one agent who got it was stationed in Washington D.C. and then once.

[Charlie Higson]

You get the birth certificate, you start adding as many other pieces of documentation to that to create this identity.

[Jack Barski]

Correct. What was absolutely required to work and live like an American was Social Security card and a driver's license.

[Charlie Higson]

If you got the birth certificate, is that fairly straightforward?

[Jack Barski]

In those days you could. You didn't need even a driver's license to tell who you are. When you go get on a plane or go to a hotel, it was wide open. The United States, I mean, we'll get.

[Charlie Higson]

Onto that period when you were going into America. But I mean, do you think of yourself as Jack now? How long have you been living as Jack Barsky?

[Jack Barski]

Since 1978. To do the math, longer than I've been Albrecht Dittrich. I left the Albrecht Dittrich at the age of 28.

[Charlie Higson]

Is there a part of you that still thinks of yourself as Albrecht?

[Jack Barski]

No. However, what happens if I go to Germany and people use my name? I react to it. But I am 100% Jack Barski these days with German roots.

[Charlie Higson]

So when you were growing up in East Germany in the 50s and the 60s and you were still Albrecht, I mean, did you ever think that you'd like to be a spy one day, change your name? I mean, were you even aware that it was a thing you could do?

[Jack Barski]

I had never even had one tiny thought of ever becoming a spy. That was just outside of my universe, period.

[Charlie Higson]

You know, we're all told that at that time in East Germany that there was a huge amount of surveillance and the secret police. I mean, did that feel like a part of your life or that whole apparatus of the state around you?

[Jack Barski]

I grew up in a bubble. I was not aware of the misdeeds that were committed by the Stasi. My parents were both teachers. I grew up in the country. So to me, the Stasi was just a legitimate organization to make sure that capitalism doesn't come back and that everybody behaves well. But I had no clue otherwise.

[Charlie Higson]

So how did you get from there to being recruited by the kgb?

[Jack Barski]

One day somebody reached out to me. It was on a Saturday afternoon, came to my dorm room. It was a German individual, spoke perfect German and started some small talk about what am I going to do when I'm done with my studies? And I immediately knew something was not right. And he said, I'm sorry, I have to admit I lied to you. I'm from the government. And this I will never forget the sentence and the answer. Can you imagine one day working for the government? I answered, yes, but not as a chemist. I had studied chemistry. He had the answer to a question. He didn't ask.

[Charlie Higson]

So how long were you given to decide whether you wanted this job and what did you think it would entail at this point?

[Jack Barski]

Yeah, that was when I was ordered to go to Berlin for a week for some additional training. Mike liaison there took me to the headquarters of the KGB in Berlin. I was taken to an office, and there was a small, short fellow sitting behind the desk. He was barely visible. He spoke only Russian. That also was a translator. But quite abruptly he stopped and did a 180. And he said, so can we count on you or not? It was very aggressive. Really. I had never taken this seriously. I was just gonna see what's gonna happen. And that was the moment I was recruited.

[Charlie Higson]

So at what point do they then sort of come out and say, look, this is what we want you to do?

[Jack Barski]

The job that they recruited me for or that they looked at me for required a whole Lot of innate character traits. A whole lot of things that you can't learn that have to be with you. Fearlessness, quick decision making. No problem with changing country, disappearing, and showing up someplace else. The most interesting character traits that we're looking for is, well, controlled inclination to adventure. And I. I was an adventurous little fellow. Actually, I wasn't that little.

[Charlie Higson]

And are you tall? I can't tell. You're sitting down.

[Jack Barski]

I'm 6ft 3.

[Charlie Higson]

So you were never going to be a spy that blended into the background?

[Jack Barski]

That is correct. That is a very good observation because I was told in confidence once they decided to send me to the United States, that there were doubts within the kgb, because if I enter a room, I'm visible. I can't blend into the background.

[Charlie Higson]

I mean, what were your sort of feelings about the kgb? Were you sympathetic with what they were doing? Were you thinking if you signed up, you want to go for it?

[Jack Barski]

There was an aura about communists that fought the Nazis and the KGB that contributed to the defeat of Hitler. So KGB agents for us were heroes. In East Germany, we have the Stasi version of James Bond was a Nazi hunter illegal who went to West Germany, hunted down Nazis. But he also lived a good life. He got the girl, he had the fast cars. So I figured, man, I can travel, I can live high on the hog, and I do something really important and help the world to get rid of all the evil capitalists.

[Charlie Higson]

Well, it sounds like a mix of, yeah, you want to go and undermine capitalism, but you also want to enjoy some of the fruits of it.

[Jack Barski]

Yeah. The irony of that was not apparent to me. The irony got even worse. After eight years of working in the US I was awarded $10,000. So I was awarded in the currency of the country that I was supposed to help destroy. Pretty bizarre, huh?

[Charlie Higson]

What's your first assignment? What is your first mission? Are you sent straight away over into West Berlin?

[Jack Barski]

First thing there was a bunch of training. Five years. Five years altogether.

[Charlie Higson]

Okay.

[Jack Barski]

I traveled with an East German passport. I was allowed to cross the border, and it just told me to take public transportation, have something to eat, take a look at the stores, just walk around and then come back.

[Charlie Higson]

And that was the first time you'd ever been into West Berlin?

[Jack Barski]

That was the first time I was in enemy territory. And guess what? Not all of us could handle this. I met a classmate of mine who was Stasi, who failed that test. He told me that when he came back from West Berlin, he told his handlers, I can't do that. Well, that was Not a problem for me. Then they sent me again to do a little task. To ring the doorbell of an apartment and befriend the elderly people who lived there and find out something about their grandson who possibly was a target for recruitment. I passed that too. And when it turned out that I had incredible talent to acquire another language, particularly English with barely an accent, I was moved to Moscow. And after two years of more training, I was declared to be ready. And then I had one more practice trip that was a longer one, to Canada. I spent three months in Canada just getting a feel for what it's like to live in the United States or go to the United States, because mistakenly the KGB considered Canada as a small brother of the United States. Not true. If you have been to both countries, you know that they are somewhat similar, but clearly not equal.

[Charlie Higson]

And yes, I guess it's the subtle differences that you had to learn and pick up on.

[Jack Barski]

The information that I'm sharing with you now came straight from KGB archives. Illegals were extremely rare. In the late 70s into early 80s, the KGB recruited and trained 10 of us. What happened to the other nine? I met one other, but we were very rare. And that means it took a lot of time and effort to look for it. Train us.

[Charlie Higson]

What are you actually being trained to do? How much of it is spycraft and how much of it is how to pass as a Westerner?

[Jack Barski]

Very good question. The best training and the majority of my training was tradecraft, right? Everything that, all the tools that you need to be able to handle to operate as an agent, that started with Morse code, shortwave radio reception, secret writing, photography. No gadgets, by the way, gadgets for, for me were a no, no, because if gadgets are found in my apartment, that that's proof that I'm up to no good. So that training was excellent also, particularly surveillance detection. I got very good at that. The other part they tried, but they failed miserably to what it's like to live as an American in the United States. There was nobody who had done it that could teach me. They didn't know what it means to get a job. They didn't know what it means to get an apartment. They didn't know how to date in the United States.

[Charlie Higson]

Were they also telling you, sort of indoctrinating you about how terrible they were, or was it just practical? This is what you got to go in and do.

[Jack Barski]

The indoctrination when I signed up for the KGB wasn't necessary anymore. It was nothing but confirmation of what we learned from Kindergarten on if you don't get any opinions to the contrary, you just think that's the way the world is. And there was the evil capitalists and imperialists in West Germany and the United States and they caused a lot of misery amongst the people. And they were us and we were going to establish the workers paradise on earth. Very romantic notion, Very hard to say, well, I don't want to do that. Of course you want to.

[Charlie Higson]

So after your five years of training between Germany and Moscow, and then when you were eventually sent to America, did you have a sense that this was going to be the rest of your life now? I mean, what had you left behind?

[Jack Barski]

No, there was always a sense that there was a limit to my deployment. A 10 year period was mentioned several times. In hindsight, I know why. Because if US illegals, if we do really well and integrate in society, we are a much higher risk for defection than, let's say, the diplomats. We had to be limited. I had an East German family at that time. They allowed me to get married, my wife, we had a son. So I had an anchor to go back to. They had a good reason to go back to a nut defect.

[Charlie Higson]

So, I mean, that must have been very difficult to leave behind a young family.

[Jack Barski]

Yes and no. I am wired to be a rather extreme stoic. I don't have very strong negative emotions. I can shake things off. My wife told me that she knew where I was going and who I was working for. And she told me she would wait. So I figured, I knew that. I knew this would work. I knew I was very well trained. I got a lot of good feedback from my handlers, the people that trained me on the tradecraft. If you start something brand new, you don't go into it with doubts because if you do that, you will fail for certain.

[Charlie Higson]

Okay, so you're trained up, ready to go to America. And what actually was your mission? What did they say to you? This is what we want you to do. This is what you've got to achieve.

[Jack Barski]

The first task, obviously was to become a functioning American. So to clearly be accepted by other Americans as somebody who was born in the U.S. the crown jewel of American documentation was a genuine U.S. passport. Right. But we. And that's collective, it's the KGB. And I made a mistake when it came to applying for the passport and I couldn't get one. The question was, where did you go to high school? The high school in my backstory was an elite school. That was a bad pick. But if they checked on that, I would Be busted. So I managed to get out of this office by grabbing my documentation and the application that was still lying in front of the agent and just walking out.

[Charlie Higson]

So when you went into America, where were you going from?

[Jack Barski]

I started in Moscow, flew to Belgrade. In Belgrade, I took a train to Vienna where I met an agent and traded one for German passport for another one. Then I took a train to Rome. I met another agent who then handed me a Canadian passport which I used for the remainder of my travels. With that passport, I first went through Madrid, Mexico City. The KGB had me go through Chicago where they had nobody, no representation. And as I'm standing in line for immigration, I realized for the first time, and it never occurred to me that I don't speak Canadian English. I knew if I was interviewed in detail, I wouldn't pass. And thank God I got through by mumbling my answers and the questions.

[Charlie Higson]

Were you thinking, wow, this is glamorous and exciting, or was it just so stressful that that kind of overrode everything else?

[Jack Barski]

Yeah, I tell you, standing in that line and it took a while to move forward. I would think it was the most stressful moment or stressful period of time in my entire life. That actually got me to a point where I couldn't get rid of the stress until I had quite a bit of whiskey that I had bought duty free. That put me in a coma. Got rid of the stress, but it gave me a headache. I made it through, but this could have been the end of my spy career before it even started. So I decided to get rid of the Canadian passport and become Jack Barski. So I went to the bathroom and tried to eliminate William Dyson, that was the name of the Canadian, by burning his passport. And I tried to light it on fire and the damn thing didn't burn. It generated a lot of smoke, heavy, thick smoke which went up there. And as I followed that smoke up to the ceiling, there's a smoke detector. If that thing goes off, I'm dead. I had my instructions what to do if I get arrested, but I had the presence of mind to throw that piece of paper in the toilet so it didn't generate any more smoke. And I was darn lucky. I think I must have an Irish gene. Darn lucky that smoke detector didn't go off. So I registered in my next hotel as Jack Barski. After that, I can't remember any more tense moments.

[Charlie Higson]

The 10 illegals in our story who came later. I'd love to get your thoughts on them. Anna Chapman, Tracy Foley, the Murphy's now, you didn't know them, but from what you know about them, do you. Do you think they were good agents?

[Jack Barski]

They were terrible agents. Their training was not even close to mine. Chapman, I understand, communicated with Moscow via social media. It's insane. The FBI published a surveillance video that's out there under Operation Ghost Stories. When I watched this for the first time, I was screaming on the tv it says, you can't do this. Turning around and hiding a big package in the park someplace. I mean, operationally, tradecraft was non existent. And I think it has something to do with the fact that the Soviet Union and the KGB had a lot more qualified personnel. They had a lot more money that they could invest into the training agents. They threw that wealth into the military and espionage. The Russians just throw some stuff on the wall and hope it sticks. Nowadays, Russian intelligence, really, they rely on volume. There's a lot of exchange students. There's a lot of fluidity and people going in and out of the United States, coming from Russia, I guarantee you, quite a few of them try to do espionage. And some of them might actually be quite successful.

[Charlie Higson]

It's interesting, you say they were amateurs, but one of the illegals, Cynthia Murphy, did actually manage to get close to Hillary Clinton. I mean, that must take some doing.

[Jack Barski]

Yeah, amateurs. In terms of tradecraft, I think that getting close to Hillary Clinton actually triggered the FBI to finally take him in, because they were known from the moment on they entered the United States because we had a mole in Russian intelligence. So they were being observed all the time.

[Charlie Higson]

You don't think they were ever really a threat to America, the illegals?

[Jack Barski]

No. The moment that looked like they could become a threat, they were arrested and then eventually exchanged.

[Charlie Higson]

I mean, do you think, was there ever really a big chance of it being successful, changing America in any way?

[Jack Barski]

I doubt it very much. You can destabilize, you can do a lot of things, but espionage itself I don't think can bring down another country unless it's a weak country to begin with.

[Charlie Higson]

And before you were exposed in America, I mean, did you feel you had done anything useful, sent useful information back to Russia?

[Jack Barski]

No, my feeling was that I was a complete failure. And that was contradicted by the fact that the Soviet Union. In my eighth year of being in the United States, the Soviet Union awarded me the Order of the Red Banner. Yes, that order was the second highest decoration of the Soviet Union, mind you, not the kgb. My KGB handlers thought I was doing a really good job integrating in US Society. That makes me Guess that a few of the others, if not the majority of them, failed or they just disappeared.

[Charlie Higson]

One of the things I do is I've written some James Bond books. And there's a big theme through the James Bond books of Ian Fleming, which is James Bond knows he must never get married because that will weaken him. He'll become vulnerable, his wife will become vulnerable. And you in America, you met Penelope and that ended up in you getting married, which to a certain extent led to you changing the way you thought about everything.

[Jack Barski]

To a certain extent. That's putting it mildly. That dramatically changed my life. That is the reason, one of the reasons I'm speaking to you today.

[Charlie Higson]

So can you just talk us through what happened, how you met and how that relationship developed.

[Jack Barski]

When I started making some decent money and I had a job that wasn't. My first job was bike messenger. And I had a real job in corporate America. I put an ad in the paper and I looked for a girlfriend. I knew there were a lot of immigrants that came to the United States. I wanted a girlfriend not to be a white born American who would have figured out that something is wrong with me. I dated a couple of ladies and one was very pretty. She was born in Guyana. I spoke with a bit of an accent. She wouldn't have known in a million years that I wasn't a true blue American. At one point, she confined to me that she was in the country illegally. And then she asked me.

[Charlie Higson]

Both of you?

[Jack Barski]

Yeah. Well, she didn't know me. She finally, she reached out to me in some way and asked me to marry her. And I didn't marry her because I loved her, I liked her, she was nice to be with, she was safe to be with. We got married, we applied for a green card, and I told her early on, I said I was still faithful, in my mind at least to my German wife. I was gonna go back to that wife who I truly loved. I told Penelope, you know, when you have your green card, we're gonna get divorced again. Well, she decided otherwise. She got pregnant.

[Charlie Higson]

Well, you were complicit in that.

[Jack Barski]

Yeah, I was complicit. But she was supposed to be on birth control pills. She made the unilateral decision to take, get off the pill.

[Charlie Higson]

And that was the best thing that ever happened to you.

[Jack Barski]

You got it. So she gave birth to a little girl. I watched this little girl grow up. And that's a love that is stronger than any other love that I ever experienced. It was unconditional. It was, oh, my God, I gotta Take care of this girl. I mean, it got to a point where I really stressed over having to leave that girl.

[Charlie Higson]

And so this is the late 80s. You've been in America for about 10 years. You're wondering, what the hell do you do next? Now you got this family, and then in December 1988, you get the message. Prepare for urgent departure. We have reason to believe that your cover has been blown. You are in severe danger. What danger were you in and how did you react to that?

[Jack Barski]

I was supposed to just, like, get out of the country as quickly as possible, and I wasn't ready. Now this conflict, I can't leave this girl. But if I stay, I might get arrested, and I wouldn't be of any use to her either. So it was like back and forth, back and forth. And I still loved my German wife. And I knew that everything that was good for me, everything was back on the other side of the Iron Curtain. The Berlin Wall was still up. I would have come back as a conquering hero. They promised me a house, and I still would have worked for the KGB doing some courier work. I would have lived a very privileged life with a beautiful family. And all of that was not strong enough for me to leave this little girl. And it's totally amazing. The power of love. It's incredible.

[Charlie Higson]

So is that a decision at that point, to say you're going to not work with the KGB anymore, you're going to try and defect? I mean, how did you work out, how to go about all of that?

[Jack Barski]

Well, defection was really not something that I ever considered, because that would have been too dangerous. Because I knew one thing, that even if they had thought I was defecting, if they went after people and tried to assassinate people, that was those people who. Who were guilty of defection. And I didn't want to risk that, so I quit.

[Charlie Higson]

Well, you make that sound easy. How did you quit?

[Jack Barski]

No, there's. Since you know about James Bond. There's a scene in one of the James Bond movies where a Russian agent tells a collaborator in the US who said, I quit. They said, nobody ever quits the kgb. Well, I did, and I succeeded by pretty much coming up with the second biggest lie that I used in my entire life. The first one being that I was born an American. I told him in my last letter, in secret writing, I acknowledged that I had received the order to return, but I couldn't come home. I tearfully shared with them that I had contracted hiv, aids. Not true. And that was a death sentence in those. They were extremely Afraid of letting anybody from the west with that disease into the country. And they had no reason to not believe me.

[Charlie Higson]

They didn't ask for any proof.

[Jack Barski]

No. I was clever enough to actually trace the infection back to a girlfriend that I had who had a boyfriend who was a drug addict. And I got infected via my interaction with that earlier girlfriend who I reported, I had to report everybody that I had an intimate relationship with. So they had no reason not to believe me. All they knew about my existence was that I had a halfway decent job in the us they didn't know that I had a child. Had they known I had a child, they wouldn't have believed me. They would have known I had a reason to stay. And they told my German family that I passed away.

[Charlie Higson]

And is it at this point that you tell your American family the truth?

[Jack Barski]

Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no. Nobody got the truth until I was almost forced out of the closet. First of all, the FBI had to catch up with me first because I didn't defect. I quit. So I just kept on living my life undercover as an ordinary American.

[Charlie Higson]

Okay.

[Jack Barski]

My version of the American dream.

[Charlie Higson]

And your cover is eventually blown by information coming out of Moscow?

[Jack Barski]

Yes, my cover was blown by an archivist by the name of Vasily Mitrokin who had worked with the MI6 and smuggled tons and tons of secret material out of the archives. And among that material, there was a little note that said, there's a person named Jack Barski. He is an illegal living in the northeast of the United States. That was it. There are not too many Jack Barskis. And it was real easy for the FBI to know that they had me because I got my Social Security card as an adult, not at birth, at the age of like 34 or something like that. And so they knew they had their man.

[Charlie Higson]

But they didn't immediately confront you, did they? They started surveillance to make sure that.

[Jack Barski]

Yes.

[Charlie Higson]

Were they just trying to be absolutely sure or were they thinking perhaps you might also be able to give them unwittingly give them some information?

[Jack Barski]

I think both. And so they wanted to make sure that I wasn't active anymore. I had survived 19 years not being discovered. The one thing that they did when the house next door, and there was only one house next door, was for sale and they bought it and they had a couple of FBI agents lived there for a while to you just watch me. They never made contact. And this observation alone gave the lead agent of that, of my case the conviction that if arrested, I would cooperate because I love my Children. It was quite obvious. And they also had a listening device in my kitchen. So they got a little bit of an idea what my family life was all about.

[Charlie Higson]

Did you tell Penelope at this point who you really were?

[Jack Barski]

We were arguing a lot. She had become very jealous. She thought I had affairs, which I didn't. And one day, I'm in the kitchen, we're arguing again, and I decided to use the nuclear option, so to speak. And I told her, hey, listen, I stayed here in this country to live with you and take care of you and Chelsea when I was in danger of. Severe danger of being arrested or being assassinated. I was a Russian agent. And guess what? This is when somebody in the FBI, in an FBI office overheard all of that. So they had my confession on tape as well. And that backfired because now she knew that I was a retired agent. Retired, so to speak. Then she knew I was a liar. She didn't believe anything anymore that I told her.

[Charlie Higson]

Well, it does sound like a classic lie that a controlling man might come out with. Hey, the reason I've been doing all these strange things, I'm really in the Secret Service.

[Jack Barski]

Yes.

[Charlie Higson]

For you, it actually was the truth.

[Jack Barski]

It was the truth. And when. When the FBI approached me, a state police waved me over and told me that this was a routine traffic stop. Please step out of the car. I stepped out of the car, and then this man comes at me from the right and he flips this FBI id. But I didn't even look at it. I knew what that was. It felt like being doused with 10 gallons of ice cold water. But this is what I was thinking. Oh, my God, this is it. It's over. My whole past, like, just went through my brain and was racing through my brain because I knew I could be in big trouble.

[Charlie Higson]

Well, were you actually officially arrested because you didn't end up in jail, did you?

[Jack Barski]

There was no arrest. I didn't spend a minute in jail. I was detained and drove me to a motel, interviewed me for about two hours, and then they allowed me to go back home. They came to my house and introduced themselves and told Penelope that the story that I told her was the truth.

[Charlie Higson]

And then how come they ended up letting you stay in America? They didn't just kick you out.

[Jack Barski]

Where to? To Russia, to Germany. First of all, they spent about six weeks debriefing me very, very thoroughly. And they also saw value in me cooperating for some time as what they call a trusted source when they needed some of my opinions about certain situations because I was still of value being around.

[Charlie Higson]

And how did you feel then? You have these two families. Everything is out in the open. I guess you don't have the excuse anymore that you can't tell anybody. It's all secret. How did you square all that? And what did you tell your other family?

[Jack Barski]

Well, everything was not out in the open. My German family knew I was dead.

[Charlie Higson]

Okay?

[Jack Barski]

And I did not care to reach out and somehow tell them that I'm still alive. I was deathly afraid of that. But leave it up to Chelsea to connect the families. Because when I told her that she had a half brother in Germany, she looked for him intensely and eventually found Matthias, that's his name, on the Internet. Reached out to him, and they decided that they are siblings. And she invited Matthias to come visit her. He didn't want to meet me, but he changed his mind. I was deathly afraid of that meeting because I had left him and had favored Chelsea as my child. When I had to make a decision, it worked out okay. He calls me dad. Long story.

[Charlie Higson]

And looking back over your career as a spy and going deep undercover and having to lie to so many people, do you think it's a fair way of getting the upper hand over an enemy?

[Jack Barski]

It's the way it's done. There's no fairness involved here. The espionage world is full of lies. You gotta assume that everybody in this world lies to you. As insiders call it the wilderness of mirrors. You don't really know what's real and what's not. You don't know if I'm telling you the truth. Except I don't have a real good reason not to.

[Charlie Higson]

Well, you would say that, though, wouldn't you?

[Jack Barski]

Yeah, sure. But do I get. What benefit do I get out of it? I don't know.

[Charlie Higson]

Yeah, well, looking at the death certificates of children, leaving your first family, lying to your second family, telling people you had AIDS friends at the time, not knowing who you really were, lying to your wife, fooling your colleagues. Do you have any regrets about all this?

[Jack Barski]

I cannot make changes, go back and undo what I did. Having lied to my mother, who, until the day she died, she didn't know what happened to me, that I deserted my German wife. There's just no way I can fix that. In hindsight, people ask me, would I do it over again. I said, if I were the person that I was then, and I knew what I knew then, I couldn't imagine having made a different decision.

[Charlie Higson]

And you ended up with the daughter Chelsea that you obviously love.

[Jack Barski]

Yes. And what I'M truly proud of is that I became a highly functioning American. I did a lot of good work for corporations. I helped a lot of people to become the best that they could be when I was a manager and an executive in corporate. So I've been trying to do good and I think there is some redemption, some measure of redemption in my life.

[Charlie Higson]

And what's the one thing you've learned through all this?

[Jack Barski]

It sounds trite, but it's absolutely 100% true. Love conquers all.

[Charlie Higson]

Certainly conquered you.

[Jack Barski]

You did.

[Charlie Higson]

And it's worth noting that the FBI did speak to the family of the real Jack Parski, the child who died, to ask them on your behalf if you could keep the name.

[Jack Barski]

The parents were still alive and they understood the rationale behind it and they agreed.

[Charlie Higson]

Yeah. God, that must be such a weird bit of information for that family.

[Jack Barski]

Yes. I actually have a picture which I don't make public because it could be misinterpreted. I found Jack Barski's grave and I have a picture of me standing next to his grave and that was more or less a spiritual experience because I wouldn't be standing there if he hadn't passed away. It's very, very strange.

[Charlie Higson]

Well, I think that is an excellent place to finish our chat that's been absolutely fascinating. Jack, thank you so much for giving us your time.

[Jack Barski]

Take care. Yeah, Bye. Bye.

[Charlie Higson]

It's fascinating to talk to an actual real life spy. We've talked about spies a lot over these series, but to actually have the real words and thoughts of someone who's been through that is I found really interesting. And keep coming back to these attributes of what makes the perfect spy. And I think Jack was very honest when he talked about his emotions or in fact, his kind of lack of emotions. The fact that he could treat this as a job and separate family life, home life, emotional life from what he was doing and lying to everyone around him. We didn't really go into how it was with his friends and his work colleagues, but implied that he lived a fairly normal life on that front. Thank you for listening and do join us for our next episode. The Spy who Duped Hitler, hosted by Raza Jaffrey. Next time, we open the file on Ewan Montague and Charles Cholmondeley.

[Jack Barski]

1943. Winston Churchill wants to capture Sicily. The key to to breaking Hitler success.

[Charlie Higson]

Hinges on diverting Nazi attention and troops elsewhere. Churchill's spy chiefs devise Operation Mincemeat, an impossibly daring deception plan involving a deceased man from Wales. Follow the spy who now, wherever you.

[Jack Barski]

Listen to podcasts.

[Charlie Higson]

Wondery subscribers can binge full seasons of the Spy who early and ad free on Apple podcasts or the Wondery app.

[Jack Barski]

Sasha hated sand the way it stuck to things for weeks. So when Maddie shared a surf trip on Expedia Trip Planner, he hesitated. Then he added a hotel with a cliffside pool to the plan and they both spent the week in the water. You were made to follow your whims. We were made to help find a place on the beach with a pool and a waterfall and a soaking tub and of course, a great shower. Expedia made to travel.

[Charlie Higson]

From Wondery this is the final episode in our series, the Spies who Invaded Suburbia. This episode of the Spy who is hosted by me, Charlie Higson. Our show is produced by Vespucci for Wondery with story consultancy by Yellow Ant. The senior producers of this episode are Ashley Clivery and Philippa Geering. Our supervising producer is Rachel Byrne. Our sound designer is Iver Manley. Music supervisor is Scott Velasquez for Frisson Sync. Executive producers for Vespucci are Johnny Galvin and Daniel Turkan. The executive producer for Yellow Ant is Tristan Donovan. Our senior producer for Wondery is Theodora Leludis and our senior managing producer for Wondery is Rachel Sibley. Executive producers for Wondery are Estelle Doyle, Chris Bourne, Morgan Jones and Marshall Louie.