← The Spy Who
The Spy Who
The Spy Who Betrayed Bin Laden (Encore) | Aimen Dean talks about his time as MI6's Top Spy Inside Al-Qaeda | 5
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- [00:00]
Raza Jaffrey
Wondery plus subscribers can binge full seasons of the Spy who early and ad free on Apple podcasts or the Wondery app.
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Eamonn Dean
From Wondery.
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Raza Jaffrey
I'm Raza Jaffrey and this is the Spy who. When diving into the world of spies, we're often talking about historic figures, people, people whose actions are felt today, but whose lives and adventures took place decades ago. That's not so with today's guest. Eamonn Dean's story is a gripping present day saga which is still unfolding in real time. Now, as we've heard throughout the season, after he came face to face with the realities of fighting a holy war, Aemond turned his back on Al Qaeda to become a spy. It was the last thing he expected to do, but he found his calling. Working as an agent, Eamonn risked not only his personal safety, but also the safety of friends and family when he agreed to aid counterterrorism efforts in the UK and beyond. And then, rather unceremoniously, he was outed by the institutions that he was working to protect. And it's particularly fascinating for me. I've been involved in spy dramas for quite a fair bit of my career and I've certainly played some spies as well. And I'm often asked whether or not those stories are based in reality, how close they are. So it'll be very interesting for me today to find out what it exactly is that is the day to day life of being a spy. Something tells me it's a little bit more mundane than movies and TV lead us to believe. So what does life as an ex spy look like? How do you adjust from adrenaline and espionage to a more ordinary way of living? My guest today is Eamon himself, author of Nine Lives, My time as MI6 is top spy inside Al Qaeda and co host of the Conflicted podcast.
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Eamonn Dean
Hello Eamon. So grateful to you for joining us today.
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Thank you.
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Should I be calling you Eamon or Ali or Abu Abbas? You've lived a lot of lives. You know, I'm interested to find out about this.
- [02:32]
Amen is fine. That's what my kids like. I mean, well, actually like, I mean, these days, my daughter, at the beginning, she used to call me a man. So first she was called me by my name and then daddy and now it's broken.
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So I have that too. I have that too. From mine, I have to put a stop to that one.
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Yeah.
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No, but we're really so lucky to have you with us today to hear really from the person behind all the stories that we've enjoyed listening to over the past episodes of this podcast and.
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Raza Jaffrey
To find out what so much of those stories were really like.
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Eamonn Dean
Like I say, such an extraordinary number of lives you've lived. And I'm so looking forward to getting into what living those lives has meant to you along the way.
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Raza Jaffrey
But after start out, you know, as.
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Eamonn Dean
An actor who's made a career telling stories of spies and playing a number of them, it's great to be sitting.
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Raza Jaffrey
In front of a real one. But I need you to answer a question for me that I think you probably. I know the answer to already. But can you tell me definitively today, is your world anything like the movie world of Spooks or Homeland or Bond?
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Eamonn Dean
No, there is nothing of Homeland or Bond.
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No, it's not.
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I mean.
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You mean everything I've been doing is a lie?
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Raza Jaffrey
Should have been a spy.
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Eamonn Dean
Well, unfortunately, there are no. Well, fortunately, if my wife is listening, there are no girls, no martinis, no.
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Cars skiing down mountains.
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Raza Jaffrey
None of that stuff.
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Eamonn Dean
No, although, like, I mean, there will be the occasional, you know, frontline drama here and there, you know, where there will be shootings here and there. But it's not like. Because, you know, you are shooting against your enemies, you are actually like an. I mean, shooting alongside your enemies against those who you are supposed to be allies with. I mean, it is one of those convoluted worlds, you know, and scenarios, basically, that you live.
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Yeah, I don't doubt it.
- [04:21]
Raza Jaffrey
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Eamonn Dean
I'd like to start at the very beginning and really talk about the origins of your story and what led you to Bosnia in the first place. You grew up in Saudi Arabia. You were the youngest of one of six brothers. Am I right with that? Indeed, yeah. And you lost your mother when you were very young and your father as well. Is that right?
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Indeed, yes.
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Yeah. What did that loss mean to you so early?
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Well, I think what enabled me, I think, to still sail through all of this. I mean, losing father at the age of 4 and mother at the age of 12 was still devastating, especially my mother, because by that time, you are more aware. I mean, when you are four, you feel the absence. When you are 12, you know, the absence in itself become, you know, catastrophic in a sense. But then I think the fact that there are five older brothers who are good at consoling. And the second thing also is the fact that Saudi Arabia is at that time a conservative, close knit, you know, society. Everyone was supporting each other. And I think that kind of social support and the kids at the school, the neighbors, the fact they have uncles and aunts and many cousins, that at least made the loss easier, I would say.
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And was it a happy time then for you in Saudi Arabia, or were there difficulties politically for the family and things growing up?
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I would say it was happy times. I mean, I was more of a nerdy boy growing up, and I was more into books and more into learning. And also I was more of a theologically and philosophically curious kid at a young age. And I think I was always also fascinated with politics. I think it just. You cannot grow up in the eastern province of Saudi Arabia without being politically aware. I mean, I grew up, you know, in the 80s where there was a massive war next door to us between Iraq and Iran, which was a ethnic and sectarian conflict. I mean, I grew up also, you know, at a time when it was the Afghan jihad. You know, at a time when, you know, you hear about all the stories of the Lebanese civil war. I mean, of course, all of this will politicize any child.
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Yeah. But it's fascinating to me that then this, you know, you describe yourself as this nerdy, kind of bookish boy turns up at his friend's house one day and decides wholeheartedly that he's gonna be of use in a war saving Muslims in Bosnia. You know, what did you have to bring to them? What did you think when you turned there to say, I'm gonna go and do this?
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I remember when he asked me the question, because he was three years older than me. I was 16 at that time. And he was telling me, for God's sake, this is war, not picnic. Where do you think we're heading to? And he was saying to me, really, do you think the jihad really needs you? Do you think the Bosnians really need you? And I told him, no, I'm not arrogant to think that the jihad needs me, but I need it. And I felt that somehow I just was refusing flat out to be a spectator watching the caravan of history passing by. I remember when I arrived in Bosnia. It was just three weeks after my 16th birthday, and I was praying so hard that I should never see my 17th. Here I am, soon to be 46, so I'm still alive. Thankfully to this day, I'm still puzzled by the fact that I do have this kind of reckless tendency to seek risk rather than avoid it. I think it was also the fact that, I mean, I just wanted to be part of something bigger than me, where I was living, my community, my city, my town. I mean, it was too small for me. I felt like, you know, that, you know, what am I doing here? I don't feel belonged. I belong here. I want to be out there doing what, you know, others are afraid to do.
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Yeah, I know we'll probably come onto this later, but there must be echoes of that in what you saw with the movement in Britain in later years about children from that environment feeling like they wanted to get out of a situation, and that was what jihad was calling them to do.
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Indeed, because remember that no one wakes up one day, you know, and think, oh, today I'm feeling so good, I'm going to become a terrorist. That's it. I mean, I'm going to join an evil organization and go kill, rape, pillage. It doesn't happen like this. I mean, really, like. I mean, this journey is, in my opinion, the journey I've been on and a journey that many others went on is the embodiment of that old adage, the path to hell is paved with good intentions. You really want to go to fight for those who cannot fight for themselves. You feel that when you see the images of the slaughter, of the atrocities, and you think, I mean, why the world is so powerless to do anything? And. And then you want to do it because, one, there is so much theology there involved in terms of, like, you wanting to redeem yourself, wanting to be of use, and you want to move from being powerless to powerful. You want to feel that sense of empowerment. You want to feel that sense of use to others. And you go, but then, of course, you don't take. You're too young. I mean, basically, like when you are 16, you know, wisdom is a short supply. I mean, absolutely, there is no supply of wisdom. So you go there and then that's it. You are an easy catch for those who are waiting at the other end. Yes, they are. You know, the neon sign says, come to save civilians. Come to fight for those who cannot fight for themselves. But also, we do have extra merchandise, you know, and the fine print also talks about, you know, future terrorism. Suicide bombings and other things, like an ideological brainwashing, but that is for later. So I think this is. This is, I think, where the trap is set. You know, slowly, gradually, you enter into a different realm altogether. Like, I mean, you are separated. You are in the. In between, between life and death, where death become ever present. You know, it's always around the corner. And you feel a sense of, you know, beginning to divorce this world and embrace the fact that, you know, you are in a waiting list, you know, you are about to be called at some at any moment, you know, to the afterlife.
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Right. So do you think that that same.
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Raza Jaffrey
Kind of feelings towards life and its value, or at least the life on this earth to Muslims and its value, was what led you to accept the risks of working for MI6 and going back and being around your peers all over again in Afghanistan? Because those risks weren't the risks to an average person. Because in your head, you'd already decided that the life on earth isn't the most important thing to you.
- [12:32]
Eamonn Dean
Well, I mean, I will die the one. The day I'm supposed to die. I mean, this is one of the things I mean, in Bosnia, there was an incident where I still remember it was September 12, 1995. That date is etched in my memory. I was rushing into a bunker in order to save someone who was screaming his heads off. I mean, and I was worried he will alert the snipers. And I was running and by, you know, I just noticed that something was holding my, you know, my foot. And I was looking down to find that I was already pulling a wire attached to several landmines. Four, you know, to be more, you know, precise, four landmines, and none of them exploded. So I remember this is when I realized that you are going to die the day you are supposed to die. You know, whether you trip over mines, whether you set a booby trap, whether you are, you know, shot in the leg or the foot or whatever. I mean, at the end of the day, you are going to die the day you're supposed to die. And this is exactly how I, you know, why I, you know, when I wrote my memoir, I call them Nine Lives. And so I think, you know, this is why when I went back, I think to be a spy and for eight years, I still remember, I mean, it's only afterwards, only after I left the service and, you know, and I became a banker, you know, exchanging one form of terrorism to another. And I remember when I went into banking, I mean, someone asked me there, they said, like, I mean, you Know, Eamonn, you spent eight years undercover. Like, I mean, that's usually, it's longer than usual. Did it occur to you that every day could have been your last day? I remember I said, do you believe? I mean, this is the first time I think about it. This is the first time I think it will be my last day. Because every day I was waking up, it doesn't matter if it's my last day, but what matters is, you know how productive this day is.
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Right. So do you think that kind of fatalistic view, that your day will come, when your day comes, is what's needed to be a spy. Like, you know, whether it's a spy now, today, or spy of hundreds or thousands of years ago, you know, that, that belief ultimately that when your time comes, your time comes so you can take the risk because it's in someone else's hands.
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That's it, that's all that you summed it up perfectly well, the risk. You know, if you keep thinking about it, you'll become nervous. It will show on your face, it will show, you know, it will let you let it slip. To be a good spy, you must forget you're a spy.
- [15:11]
Raza Jaffrey
So I'd love now to turn to what the day to day life of being a spy was. When you first left the UK, when you decided that you'd be working for MI6, what was that first day at work like? When you entered those training camps with people you knew you'd left as someone else and now you were coming in as an MI6 officer for the first day, what were you feeling?
- [15:41]
Eamonn Dean
To tell the truth, it was business as usual. You go back and you wear the same clothes that you were wearing, you behave the same way you were doing, you still have the same skills that they were utilizing, you still have the same knowledge that they need from you. Because again, to be a good spy, you must forget you're a spy.
- [16:03]
Raza Jaffrey
Can I come to the time when you decided in Qatar that it was time for you to talk to a security service about what you'd been doing for these years? You spent nine days with the security services in Qatar. I understand. Is that right? Being questioned afterwards, how in those moments did you think, this is going to be okay? I am not going to be betrayed by the Qataris. For all I know, there could be someone in here who's going to tell Al Qaeda what I've been doing. Like what was going through your mind to make you go, no, I trust that this is the right place for me. Or again, was this part of the greater plan.
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Eamonn Dean
You just have to trust your gut feeling. I think at that moment, you really start to feel that, okay, how do I conduct myself now? I have two choices. Either I decide to defend those who I no longer agree with ideologically and theologically, or actually just stick to the truth. And I remember there is a statement by the Prophet Muhammad where he says in Arabic that truth is salvation. And, boy, I mean, I did. That's exactly what happened. You know, there is salvation in the.
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Raza Jaffrey
Truth, which is extraordinary coming from a spy because, you know, so much of.
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Eamonn Dean
Your life is not the truth.
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Raza Jaffrey
It has to be all the time. It must be a difficult thing to live with sometimes.
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Eamonn Dean
Well, not necessarily. You see, you know, there is a lot of misconception about espionage. That it's all lies. No, actually, the best of spies are those who do not resort to lying most of the time, but they are mostly economic with the truth.
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Right, so in that time with the.
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Raza Jaffrey
Qataris, how did they trust you?
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Eamonn Dean
You know, as someone who's from the Gulf and they are from the Gulf, you know, the distance between us, like it is four hours by drive. It's the same accent. You know, it's, it's, you know, it is the same families, the same tribal structure. Like, you know, I mean, so the rapport between me and them was more like, you know, guys sitting, having tea and just going through this. It wasn't an interrogation. It was really like, you know, with, you know, food and tea and coffee and drinks and all of that, like, I mean, and snacks and, you know, talking and joking and. So it wasn't what you would say.
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Raza Jaffrey
It wasn't the movie version where you were sitting chained to a table and someone was shining a lamp on your face? No.
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Eamonn Dean
Oh, no, no, no, no, no. I think, you see, this is why I always tell people. I mean, the Americans are really, you know, got it wrong. In the first years of the war on terrorism with their rendition and, you know, and enhanced interrogation and all of that, you want to get things out of people, be kind to them. That's what you have to do. The Qataris knew this from the beginning. They were extremely kind to me. I was also kinder with them.
- [19:00]
Raza Jaffrey
Is that why you chose the Brits as well? Because, you know, their hearts and minds kind of attitude towards espionage? And was that why you were more drawn to them as a security service when you had the choice to go to the French or the Americans?
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Eamonn Dean
Indeed. I mean, there is no question about it. Like, you know, the British are far more superior when it comes to, you know, at least at that time, when it comes to understanding in the first world of the Middle east, the fact that my father himself, Lacina Amin, had, you know, an early life friendship with one of the earliest, you know, spies of the British in Arabia, Saint Jam Filby, or later known as Sheikh Abdullah Philbi, the advisor of King Abdulaziz in Saudi Arabia. So for me, there is an affinity with the British earlier, before. And so I understood that they have a far more nuanced approach to the Middle east, to the Muslim world. They understand that the problems, they are better, I think.
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Raza Jaffrey
What was it that surprised you most about your early meetings with those intelligence services?
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Eamonn Dean
Do you think one was how knowledgeable they were about jihad, about Afghanistan, about Al Qaeda, about Bosnia? You know, you start to see, like, well, there are hundreds of mosques in the UK. Like, I mean, there are 2 million Muslims, like in a. Living there, like, you know, I mean, enjoying the freedoms and the privileges and going to university and, you know, and then of course, when you see, you know, that there are officers who are also Muslims, whether they are converts or, you know, or people like, you know, basically who are from, you know, ethnic background or when you see even more like, I mean, you know, the cream of the British intelligentsia, people who are Orientalists, you know, speak Arabic with Bedouin accent, you know, love to go to the desert and practice falconry. I mean, come on, like, I mean, why wouldn't you fall in love with it? You know, people who actually, you know, the same, on the same wavelength with you, intellectually speaking, you know, you immediately bond with them because they are trained to do that. That's the first thing. But also, at the same time, you can't dismiss the fact that they are fellow humans with their own set of ambitions, dreams, problems, you know, worries, anxieties, but also at the same time, you know, loyalty. Like, you know, and. And above all, their loyalty to their country, you know, and, you know, these are people who love their country.
- [21:45]
Raza Jaffrey
You're now going back and forth between Afghanistan, between Beirut, between London. At this point. This is when you're first working for MI6. What changed for you, crossing those borders?
- [21:59]
Eamonn Dean
I mean, this time it's just that you feel a little sense of ease because you have a little bit of protection. I mean, you're crossing, but this time you are not on the wrong side of the law. Let's put it this way. So you don't, you know, it's still dangerous. I mean, if I go into Lebanon and Hezbollah find out, or you Know Jama Islamiya. Like, you know, find out. Oh, my God. Like, I mean, I'm not gonna be in good shape. So you have to not incriminate myself, like, you know, with association with MI6. But what you do is that, okay, no problem, go to prison and then figure out, you know, what to do after that. But for now, you are not supposed to do that. And at the same time, sometimes you come up with the most, you know, outlandish, you know, ideas. I mean, you have to just, you know, talk to immigration officers based on their, you know, local beliefs, exploit their, you know, you know, local traditions, and just. Just befriend them and try to, you know, appeal to their, you know, you know, areas of curiosity and interest.
- [23:03]
So is that, again, another kind of.
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Raza Jaffrey
Common trait of a spy, like being able to bond with people, charm people in that way?
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Eamonn Dean
You have to, you know, being charming person is important, especially that if you have a sense of humor. It's important. A sense of humor for a spy is important because it shows that you are at ease, that you're not nervous, that you are not afraid of anything. You have no worries. A sense of humor is a very good shield.
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Was there a lot of laughing in those camps?
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Oh, yes. I mean, this is why I said it was. You sit down with people because you learn more about them. I mean, I never looked at them as enemies. I looked at them as objects of learning, curiosity, experiments. And this is why it was important that I should never view them with hostility, because if I start to do that, it will show and I will start to become more withdrawn from them. No, I'm not supposed to do that. I have to care about them, and I have to make them care about me.
- [24:07]
Raza Jaffrey
There must then have been difficult decisions because there's people that you really do care about, and potentially, you're putting them in danger by talking to the authorities about what they're involved with. Was that difficult?
- [24:18]
Eamonn Dean
Of course it was difficult. But nonetheless, you have to look at the bigger picture. You have to always understand. I know this is. Is a cliche. I know, like, in many people roll their eyes when you say this phrase, but it is for the greater good. You will never understand, you know, what is the greater good until you go through war and conflict and you see mass graves and you see the worst of the worst of humanity, because at the end of the day, remember that these people I tell jokes with, you know, I eat with. You will be surprised, you know, that people with such tender affections to each other would be incredibly harsh and bloodthirsty when it comes to the other, because they already have dehumanized the other so much.
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And did you at any point along the way, think, there are people here who I could try to persuade to think along the lines, I think. Or was that just off limits because.
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Raza Jaffrey
It risked outing you for what you were doing?
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Eamonn Dean
Of course it's off limit. I mean, one of the things I've been trained on is resist the temptation. No matter how much you think, you think that someone is voicing concerns, because sometimes it happens, like someone will come to you and say, oh, I'm not feeling good about this or that. I mean, are we doing the right thing? Are we? No, don't fall into the trap. Because it could be a trap. Yeah. From my point of view, I have to be really careful. And no, it's not my job to recruit others. That's the problem of MI6 and MI5. They can't go and recruit for me. My job is not to persuade, is not to preach, is not to teach. My job is to observe.
- [26:02]
And what about the successes along the way? What were those moments that you went, I am making a difference. What I have done has prevented something or, wow, it's working. What were those moments for you?
- [26:13]
There were quite few of them. You know, for example, like, you know, when you hand over certain information and they say, oh, a cell has been broken in Yemen. Thank you so much for this. I mean, you've done it. Oh, we have now uncovered the true identity of, you know, those who carried out the bombings, you know, in Russia. Oh, we have disrupted a chemical weapon attack in New York. We disrupted another poison attack in Mayfair and Canary Wharf. We disrupted also another potentially big attack, actually, in Bahrain that would have targeted so many people in the New Year's Eve of 2004, 2005. So there were these moments when you feel that this have or this did prevent significant harm to others and that hundreds of lives being saved. There was, of course, the moment when, you know, but some of the successes, you really feel a little bit hollow. When I uncovered the identity of the first leader of Al Qaeda in Saudi Arabia, Yusuf Alairi, who was my teacher when I was young, and. And I remember that the first thing I asked before I hand over the information is that can you please persuade the Saudis to take him alive? I asked for that. And I was given the guarantees that they will do their best to take him alive. And guess what? They did their best, the Saudis. In the end, he just did not want to hand over Himself, he wanted to die. That was his choice. He just did not refuse to hand over himself for nine hours.
- [27:54]
Raza Jaffrey
So once the Americans had attacked Afghanistan and you had Al Qaeda cells splintering all over the world, I mean, people, you know, it's like whack a mole. Presumably we're working in the intelligence services, trying to. Trying to find out where these cells were and what they were doing. You were in Britain at the time, is that right? You were working with MI6 out of the UK just after 9 11?
- [28:17]
Eamonn Dean
Well, after 9 11, I worked from out of many places. Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Kuwait, uae, Lebanon, and of uk. So because they were scattered, they were all over the place. I mean, I spent 13 months actually in the Gulf, you know, post 9 11, continuously undercover. But UK also became. It became apparent that there were cells there and they were hostile. So I started also to pay more attention there into, you know, what the Al Qaeda UK sales are up to.
- [28:51]
And what did you come across then at the time?
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Raza Jaffrey
What were you seeing?
- [28:54]
Eamonn Dean
Well, out of nowhere, I received a instruction from one of my Al Qaeda associates in the Gulf. He said, okay, where are you living right now? I said, well, I was living in Oxford. Oh, someone from Birmingham is going to come and see you. And so of course, I received this, you know, ominous, you know, two people coming to my apartment in Oxford and they were from Dudley, or should I say Dudley. And so. And so this is when I, you know, I was sucked into this world of Anwar al Awlaqi and these people who were recruited by him, you know, when he was, you know, preaching in the Whitechapel Mosque in East London and then later in the Midlands. And of course, like, I mean, you know, I started to become more acquainted with the Birmingham jihadi circles and of course went to Dudley. And this is in, you know, and this is where I met, you know, Humayun Tariq, who would later, you know, up until 2016, 17, 18, would become one of the greatest bomb makers ISIS, you know, had in Iraq and Syria. And that tells you a lot. So I met him for the first time and it was, you know, the winter of 2004. And, you know, and he was telling me I was given your number by, you know, such and such. And, you know, he told me to get in touch with you because, you know, we are planning something. And I said, oh, dear, not again. I just. Can you give me just a breather? I just came back from another plot. Just don't smack me with another one. And I said, oh, I'm all ears. You know, I'M at your service. You tell me, like, you know, what you need to do. And so he told me that they are planning, you know, to use nicotine poison, a poison that you can make out of cigarettes. And that's why I tell people, do not smoke. When they put that nicotine poison, that's.
- [30:48]
Raza Jaffrey
A new one on me. I haven't heard that before.
- [30:49]
Eamonn Dean
Well, a nicotine poison is a poison. I don't go into details as how you do it, but it is extracted out of cigarettes. And so this is why, you know, I just alerted my handlers immediately. Guys, these. There are some psychos out of Dudley, and they want to do something. And immediately we started putting the plans together. It took about four months, you know, from December 2004 until March 2005, to understand this whole cell, their connections. Who. Who are they? What is their target? They wanted to target, you know, because nicotine poison, if you mix it with certain other additives, it could penetrate the skin and could kill by touch. So if you were to brush against door handles of, let's say, like, you know, I mean, Bentleys and Rolls Royces and Ferraris and, you know, of, you know, rich houses, people, you know, door handles, like. And, I mean. And so it is the audacity of it, the fact that it is designed to give people terror. Because terrorism is about installing fear in the hearts of people.
- [31:59]
Yeah. The unknown.
- [32:01]
Raza Jaffrey
Because you don't know if it's going to be you if it's on your door handle. If you do it to 30 people, how do I not know that my door handle is not going to be covered in it?
- [32:07]
Eamonn Dean
Exactly. 30 random people. So suddenly, basically, I remember I was joking with my handlers. I said, should I buy, you know, shares in any company that produce gloves? Yeah. They said, don't you dare. So, and of course, like, it was a joke because I was, you know, of course, like we were going to foil the plot anyway.
- [32:31]
But how far along the line did.
- [32:33]
Raza Jaffrey
They get with the plot?
- [32:35]
Eamonn Dean
Let's put it this way. Like, you know, I mean, they really, like, you know, we're two weeks away from it. Like, that's it. Like, they were preparing their wills. They were like, in a. Basically, like, in a. Deciding that, and they were actually booking their flights. So they will do it, and then they will fly straight away.
- [32:48]
So providing that intelligence along the way, was it in your remit to decide which intelligence to give? Because, for example, had you given them a catalog of information and knowing that you were probably the only spy as far as, you know, Inside Al Qaeda at the time, did you not fear that giving them chunk of information after chunk of information? These plots were getting foiled. Each one was in front of you. There's a pattern here. Did you not think this is going to expose me? So I need to hold back some of this. I won't give them some of this information. Or were you just taught, give them everything. Let them figure that out.
- [33:25]
Yes, it is exactly as it is. You give them everything and they will figure out. Because the more you hide, you don't know. Because I have part of the picture. They have the full one. So, you know, I'm not supposed to.
- [33:39]
Raza Jaffrey
Second guess, but that's incredible faith, isn't it? That incredible faith in the people you work for.
- [33:44]
Eamonn Dean
Exactly. Because, you know, it's military discipline. It is military discipline. You know, it's not for the, you know, for the unit commanders to question the brigade commander, you know, so. Because the brigade commander have the fuller picture than the unit commanders. And I think this is exactly why I'm not supposed to second guess what they might or might not do. I just have to trust them. And part of the trust is the fact that, well, I mean, they're, you know, I'm valuable. I'm not. They are not going to throw me like this, you know, or throw away my contribution. So this is why, you know, it is a risk you have to take.
- [34:27]
Raza Jaffrey
Now, that must therefore have been a really, really awful time when suddenly they did put you in that situation. When you were sent that text message and told that you needed to look at the Time magazine article in 2006, and that you'd been betrayed by the people that you'd done so much for when you'd put so much faith in their decisions about the information that they'd given you. What did that feel in that moment?
- [34:53]
Eamonn Dean
I remember I was actually taking the first holiday in my life. I mean, in my life as a private individual. I remember I went to my handlers, it was May 2006, and I said, guys, can you believe it? I've been working seven and a half years. Non stop, non stop. So I think I deserved a holiday. And I would love to see Paris. I've never seen it before. So they said, by all means. So I went there, you know, and it was Saturday. Then on Sunday, I'm enjoying myself the second day in this beautiful city. I am in the River Seine, enjoying this, you know, boat ride. And I received this text message. You know, there is a spy among us. Go into hiding. You know, go and read this Time magazine website. And I was, okay, but, you know, I'm waiting for this, you know, boat to stop. Then I went into the Internet cafe, went into the Time magazine website. They clicked on it, saw the headline. My heart, you know, went all the way to my throat. And then when I started reading the details, it went all the way to my stomach. I just was like, you know, it says there, you know, a brilliant spy within Al Qaeda, you know, thwarted the chemical attack against the New York subway just before the war in Iraq. And by the way, that plot remained secret for three years. No one knew about it. I mean, absolutely no one knew about it. And I was thinking, oh, my God. I just, you know, read everything. And then I realized that they even chose my birth name to identify me with. And I was thinking, out of the 4,000 bloody names in Arabic, you know, why they have to choose the name that I was born with? And then even to hint that I am from Bahrain. Great. You might as well have put a crosshair on me. Idiots. But also, I realized immediately that it wasn't a leak from the British. It was a leak from the Americans. And they are the ones who decided that they want to claim my contribution as theirs and that I am their spy and their success story, because they wanted the success story at that time when the Bush administration was under criticism that they have no effective espionage against Al Qaeda and that this is why they are failing time and time again you know, to, you know, do something. So they're saying, no, no, we already prevented quite few attacks. We already have a spy inside Al Qaeda. And he was claiming that I am an American spy and that it is all the triumphs of the CIA. And I was thinking, no, they're not. So I was just running towards the phone booth, you know, of course, it was Sunday. So I called the emergency line, you know, and I gave the code name Lawrence. And I said, you know, emergency, emergency. Like, you know, someone need to call me immediately. And then the five minutes later, my handler called me and he said, what's up? You know, of course, like, he used the F word and everything and all of that. And he said, go to Garden Ord. Get the first ticket back to Waterloo. It was Waterloo at that time instead of St. Pancras now. And we will wait for you there. Just. I. I have only one message for you. You don't worry. We will look after you. You don't have anything to worry about. We will look after you.
- [38:23]
Did you trust them?
- [38:24]
So, yes, straight away. Straight away. I mean, I have no other choice.
- [38:44]
Raza Jaffrey
So, Eamonn, after all your successes, your career, your spying career, ended rather abruptly when the US outed you in the Time article. Were there crisis talks at the time to see about, you know, ways they could get you back in? Was there some way of fooling people to think actually that wasn't the Ali they were talking about? And get the journalist to write another article saying that the Ali was the name he'd made up, or, I don't know, figuring out a way. Were there talks about that?
- [39:11]
Eamonn Dean
Unfortunately.
- [39:12]
Raza Jaffrey
So valuable get you back in, right?
- [39:15]
Eamonn Dean
No, that's it. The cat is out of the bag and you can't roll the dice with the lives of people like that. You know, I would love to have gone back. Like, I mean, I would have done it, but unfortunately, like, I mean, you know, decision came from up. No, it is for resettlement, you know, so I became a resettlement case. Yeah, yeah, a resettlement case.
- [39:40]
Raza Jaffrey
And did they look after you?
- [39:42]
Eamonn Dean
Well, judging by the fact, like, basically, I mean, I lived all this time and, you know, I went into a very respectable job and one of the biggest banks in the world. You know, I worked with them for nine years. I work as a consultant for many governments around the world, as well as banks and private institutions. You know, I've done quite well for myself, multiple businesses, all of that, like. And I mean, did they, you know, look after me? I mean, without any shadow of a doubt.
- [40:12]
I've always wondered, once you've left the.
- [40:14]
Raza Jaffrey
Security services, what happens when you see someone who, you know is still in the service?
- [40:20]
Eamonn Dean
Do you.
- [40:20]
Raza Jaffrey
Is there a special look? I mean, do you catch someone's eye at one moment if you're in a. In a cafe or something, knowing that that person works for MI6 and the two of you just know, but walk on by. Has that happened to you?
- [40:34]
Eamonn Dean
It happened twice where I just get the look that ignore me, but the rest of the time they just come out of nowhere. Big hugs, pat on the back. Okay, yeah, I just left. I'm now in the private sector. Yay. Okay, let's sit down and let's talk about the good old days. And so, yeah, I mean, it happens a lot that out of nowhere, one of my, you know, previous handlers, like, you know, basically will just, you know, or the people I met before will, you know, jump up at, you know, out of nowhere, basically, like, you know, email me or get in Touch on LinkedIn or social media, basically, and say, hey, remember. Yeah, hi. And then we'll say, well, I just retired, you Know would love to see you for dinner.
- [41:23]
Were there other spies you knew of while you were there at the camps?
- [41:27]
Raza Jaffrey
Did they have anyone else in or can you not talk about that now?
- [41:30]
Eamonn Dean
Well, I don't know about the British, but we came to know about five others. But they were of course working for the Egyptians and the Jordanian intelligence services and goodness, they met Grizzly and yes, they were all in their 30s. I mean, over the three years I was spying against Al Qaeda in Afghanistan, I mean, basically five spies were caught, three were working for the Egyptians and five were, two for the Jordanians. So five in total. And all of them were executed. And there was one actually who was Syrian and he was working for one of the Gulf intelligence agencies and he was handed over to the Taliban at the last minute because they intervened to take him from Al Qaeda because he was supposed to be executed also. So actually six in total. And I remember that all of them were in their 30s, all of them were mature people and I was always praising the professionalism and the wonderful training that MI6 gave me. And in particular there was always this low expectations, this policy of low expectations. In other words, basically Ayman just go there, have fun, come back. If there is nothing to tell us about, we are just happy that you're back in one piece, right?
- [42:49]
Raza Jaffrey
Since you've left and you know, worked as, as you have since then and built a life for yourself in all these years afterwards, do you miss those days? Those adrenaline fueled days? Do you ever find yourself, you know, in a, in a shop wondering what if? Or at an airport checkpoint thinking, wow, those days were different then. I mean, how do you, how do you reconcile that life now?
- [43:12]
Eamonn Dean
I, I don't feel that I miss that sense of danger for a reason. I think it's just, I think up until 2017, I was always thinking, what if I stayed in? What if there was no leak from the American side? What if I stayed in more and more? I could have gone to Iraq because I had an invitation to go to Iraq and to spend time with Zarqawi himself. I really like, you know, going to do even more wonders, hopefully. And I was thinking like that, like I would have thought like, you know, I, you know, I always felt I didn't do enough. You know, I always feel that. You always feel that like when you are, you know, in that world, that I didn't do enough. You know, you're always chasing that glory, I think like, you know, but then of course, 2014, I got married and this is when you start to think Nah. And then slowly, gradually, you start to become domesticated, which wasn't easy. I think the moment my daughter was born, I think when I saw her for the first time, I thought, there is no way in hell I'm going back to do anything risky whatsoever. I'm gonna live to see this one. Get married and, you know, get that PhD and run that company.
- [44:35]
Raza Jaffrey
There's an Arab father speaking right there.
- [44:37]
Eamonn Dean
Indeed.
- [44:41]
Raza Jaffrey
Well, I'm really glad you've been able to have a life for yourself afterwards. And thank you so much for sharing all this. I could really go on. It's fascinating to know just how much insight you have into those times. So thank you for your time today and thank you for answering our questions.
- [44:58]
Eamonn Dean
Thank you so much. Much appreciated. Thank you.
- [45:04]
Raza Jaffrey
Eamon's book is Nine Lives My Time as MI6's top spy inside Al Qaeda. Or you can hear him on the conflicted podcast. This brings us to the end of our season on Amondeen, but do join us for the next season. The Spy who Infiltrated Auschwitz. We open the file on Witold Pilecki. Polish resistance fighter. Pilecki volunteers to go to the secretive internment camp Auschwitz, driven by a compulsion to expose its horrible horrors. But the rumors were nothing compared to the reality. A hellish place where the unimaginable becomes routine. Now, trapped in a nightmare, his first mission is to survive. Follow the Spy who Now Wherever you listen to podcasts.
- [45:54]
Wondery plus subscribers can binge full seasons of the Spy who early and ad free on Apple Podcast or the Wondery app.
- [46:10]
From Wondery. This is the final episode in our series, the Spy who Betrayed Bin Laden. This bonus episode of the Spy who is hosted by me, Raza Jaffri. Our show is produced by Vespucci for Wondery with story consultancy by Yellowant. The producer of this episode is Natalia Rodriguez. Our senior producer is Thomas Curry. Our sound designer is Iver Manley. Music supervisor is Scott Velasquez for Frison Sync. Executive producers for Vespucci are Johnny Galvin and Daniel Turkan. The executive producer for Yellow Ant is Tristan Donovan. Our managing producer for Wondery is Rachel Sibley. Executive producers for Wondery are Estelle Doyle, Jessica Radburn and Marshall Louis.