The Spy Who Duped Hitler | Making a Musical out of Mincemeat | 4

Summary

The Spy Who Duped Hitler: Making a Musical out of Mincemeat – Episode 4 Summary

Podcast Information:

• Title: The Spy Who
• Host/Author: Wondery
• Episode: The Spy Who Duped Hitler | Making a Musical out of Mincemeat | 4
• Release Date: April 15, 2025

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Introduction

In the fourth episode of "The Spy Who Duped Hitler" series, hosted by Charlie Higson from Wondery, the focus shifts from the historical Operation Mincemeat to its vibrant transformation into a musical. The episode delves into the creative journey behind Operation Mincemeat: The Musical, highlighting its reception and the impact it has had both on Broadway and among its dedicated fanbase.

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Interview with David Cumming

[03:06] Charlie Higson:
"So welcome David, thank you so much for joining me on the Spy who."

David Cumming, one of the originators of Operation Mincemeat: The Musical, joins Higson to discuss the unique challenges and triumphs of adapting a complex wartime deception into a theatrical production.

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Genesis of the Musical

[04:36] Charlie Higson:
"When was it first an idea?"

David explains that the concept sprang from an initial desire to prove that a larger-scale commercial musical was feasible. The idea was serendipitously inspired when Natasha Hodgson's brother suggested turning a podcast into a musical. Initially hesitant due to the audacious nature of the WWII story, the team realized the untapped narrative potential, particularly the unsung heroes and the multifaceted contributions of both men and women during the war.

Notable Quote:
[05:03] David Cumming:
"It was a real eye opening moment of, oh, there's another side to this war that we are never taught."

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Creative Process and Collaboration

David details the collaborative effort with fellow writers Natasha Hodgson, Sylvia Roberts, and Felix Hagen, collectively known as Spit Lip. They aimed to balance historical accuracy with engaging storytelling through humor and song.

[07:12] David Cumming:
"We're really taking quite a big risk here... the kind of, well, as long as we say it's gonna happen, it's gonna happen."

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Character Development and Casting Choices

A significant creative decision was casting women in traditionally male roles to add depth and dimension to the characters. For instance, Natasha Hodgson portrays Ewan Montague, adding a fresh and unexpected dynamic to the narrative.

[09:19] Charlie Higson:
"It's interesting watching it, how quickly you forget or don't think about the genders of the different parts..."

David emphasizes the comedic and narrative benefits of these casting choices, enhancing both humor and emotional resonance.

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Musical Composition and Thematic Elements

The musical integrates catchy, plot-driving songs that maintain a balance between humor and the gravity of war. Early creations like "Trout Ticklers" and "God, That's Brilliant" exemplify the show's blend of comedy with historical events.

[14:38] David Cumming:
"We wrote that within the first couple of months of starting to make the show."

Notably, the song "Dear Bill" serves as a poignant moment, revealing the softer sides of ostensibly hardened characters.

[19:56] David Cumming:
"And when you watch her starts to kind of dictate writing it and then fall into a memory of a lost loved one."

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Balancing Historical Accuracy with Theatrical Needs

Throughout the development, the team grappled with maintaining historical truth while ensuring the narrative served the musical's dramatic arc. This involved subtle alterations, such as referring to Major William Martin as a pilot for lyrical succinctness.

[24:44] Charlie Higson:
"How important was it to you to stick to the truth?"

[24:59] David Cumming:
"We were very keen to get truth in there... But over time, our tired writers brains were like, but the beat needs to go this way..."

Despite some factual liberties, the essence of the main characters remains true to history, preserving their significance and contributions.

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Audience Reception and Fan Engagement

The musical has garnered a passionate fanbase known as "Mincefluencers," who actively engage with the show by dressing up as characters and celebrating its themes. This community has also played a pivotal role in uncovering historical details about characters like Hester Leggett, bridging fiction with real-life history.

[27:23] Charlie Higson:
"So the Mincefluencers sound like quite a formidable bunch."

[28:08] David Cumming:
"They found each other and now created this really wonderful, loving, caring group of people who now is now transatlantic."

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Honoring Unsung Heroes

A significant aspect of the musical is honoring Glyndor Michael, the real-life figure behind Major William Martin. The show highlights his indispensable yet often overlooked role in Operation Mincemeat, emphasizing the humanity behind the historical deception.

[31:43] David Cumming:
"It does feel good to have righted that wrong."

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Final Takeaways and Creator’s Vision

David shares his hopes that the musical inspires audiences to recognize the power of unconventional teamwork and creativity in overcoming monumental challenges. He emphasizes the importance of community and collective effort in driving meaningful change.

[33:20] David Cumming:
"We want to send people out happier than they came in... Anything is kind of possible. That five weirdos can change the course of Nazism..."

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Conclusion

The episode provides an insightful look into the creation and impact of Operation Mincemeat: The Musical. Through David Cumming's experiences, listeners gain an appreciation for the intricate balance between historical fidelity and artistic expression, as well as the enduring legacy of unsung heroes in both history and the arts.

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Notable Quotes:

1. David Cumming on the Unseen Heroes:
   "[05:03] 'It was a real eye opening moment of, oh, there's another side to this war that we are never taught.'"

2. On Creative Risks:
   "[07:12] 'We're really taking quite a big risk here... the kind of, well, as long as we say it's gonna happen, it's gonna happen.'"

3. Balancing Truth and Narrative:
   "[24:59] 'We were very keen to get truth in there... But over time, our tired writers brains were like, but the beat needs to go this way...'"

4. Honoring Glyndor Michael:
   "[31:43] 'It does feel good to have righted that wrong.'"

5. Creator’s Vision:
   "[33:20] 'We want to send people out happier than they came in... Anything is kind of possible.'"

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Closing Remarks:

Charlie Higson concludes the episode by applauding the musical's success and its celebration of the often-overlooked individuals who play crucial roles in pivotal historical moments. He encourages both spy enthusiasts and general audiences to experience the musical firsthand, highlighting its blend of humor, emotion, and historical intrigue.

Transcript

[Indra Varma]

Wondery subscribers can binge full seasons of the Spy who early and ad free on Apple Podcasts or the Wondery App.

[Charlie Higson]

From Wondery. I'm Charlie Higson, spy, novelist, actor, comedian, and this is the Spy who. Thank you for joining us for our final episode of the Spy who duped Hitler. 30th of April 1943 was the date that possibly the greatest war deception since the Trojan Horse came into being. The war is undecided. Europe is under control of the Nazis, but the Allies have a trick up their sleeve. In room 13 of the Naval Intelligence Division, the plan for Operation Mincemeat was underway. Churchill wants to attack Sicily, but he needs the Nazis to look the other way. Cue a dead body dressed as a Marine given a fictitious backstory packed with misleading intelligence. If you haven't already, go and listen to episodes one to three of this series to find out exactly how this mission played out and how this audacious plan shifted the momentum of the war decisively in the Allies favor. When Operation Mincemeat first came to my attention, I wasn't thinking, you know what? This would make a great comedy infused musical. But my guest today thought very differently. In this episode I'm going to speak to David Cumming, one of the originators of Operation Mincemeat the musical. Its run has been extended 12 times and it's recently moved to Broadway and it won Best New musical at the 2024 Olivier Awards. I caught up with David just as he was packing his things to go to New York to begin the Broadway run.

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[Charlie Higson]

So welcome David, thank you so much for joining me on the Spy who. Particularly as you're very busy at the time of recording this. You are rehearsing, getting ready to go over to Broadway. You're rehearsing in London and when this goes out, the show will already be on.

[David Cumming]

Yes, I'll be dancing and singing my way, tapping my way around New York, hopefully to applause. But we'll. The future, we'll find, we'll tell us.

[Charlie Higson]

I mean, how scary is that at the moment?

[David Cumming]

Yeah, it's pretty daunting. We're literally flying in about 48 hours, but sure. Like arriving at the home of musicals with impressions about a British story. We're yet to see whether there is the taste for that. We hope so, but we'll find out.

[Charlie Higson]

Well, I'm sure some Americans remember the war.

[David Cumming]

Yeah, yeah, I'm sure.

[Charlie Higson]

So David, you're an actor, a writer, a composer, a lyricist, a recording artist. You make people laugh, you make people cry. I mean, is there anything I've missed there?

[David Cumming]

I'm a very good son, my mother says so. That's all so nice. Yeah, no, I'm jack of all trades, master of possibly none, who knows? In relation to the show, I will start by saying I did not make the show alone. I am one of four writers of the show. Good. So it's myself, Natasha Hodgson, Sylvia Roberts and Felix Hagen and together we are collectively known as a writing group called Spit Lip. And then in the show itself, my lead character is Charles Cholmondeley. And then I play a host of other smaller characters you meet throughout the show.

[Charlie Higson]

Have you ever added up exactly how many?

[David Cumming]

Yeah, I think I play 13 in total. Oh no, actually on Broadway I play 14. We've just added an extra character that I play. And then initially we self directed and self choreographed the show whilst we were inside of it.

[Charlie Higson]

Now I went to see the show and I really enjoyed it and I'm fascinated by how it started and how you got from where it started to where you are now. When was it first an idea?

[David Cumming]

We got together with the express aim of making a musical that would prove to the money men that we could make big commercial musicals. And then Natasha, my fellow co writer, she was on a holiday and was chatting to her family bemoaning how difficult it is to be an artist and how inspiration eludes you at all turns and her brother simply took out his earpods and was like, actually, I'm listening to a podcast right now, that should be a musical. She was like, what do you know? You're a vet. Why don't you go pat a horse and I'll be an artist? But then she listened, sent it to us. Our immediate response was, this is about World War II. We're not gonna write a musical about World War II. The story is so out there and audacious and bonkers and true. And then the fact that it actually came off, it was a real eye opening moment of, oh, there's another side to this war that we are never taught. And that's kind of where the impetus came from. And that was back in 2017. And then it took us two years from finding that idea to the very first performance in 2019.

[Charlie Higson]

Which aspect of it did you latch onto?

[David Cumming]

I think the initial hook for us was the kind of farcical spy caper element of it. This crazy adventure that these kind of ragtag group of office workers really instigate. And then this body goes on this international adventure and how deeply British and kind of strange and stiffer for lip men getting away with it vibe. And then the more we dug into the story and more we wrote around it, it became about ultimately the story of five unsung heroes, or five lesser known people who wouldn't normally be remembered in war, including, very importantly, the women who are unsung and their contribution. And that actually it isn't just the men who history members that matter, it's in fact everyone, including at the very end, Glyndor Michael himself.

[Charlie Higson]

Well, I thought that worked so well because you've got that dysfunctional group of people within MI5 who would not thrive in any other situation. But they had exactly what was needed to make this bizarre plot, to pull.

[David Cumming]

It off, to push it through, to quite brazenly ignore some deeply strange moral questions around what they're up to. Ignore a lot of flaws, but there was also an element of, we're really taking quite a big risk here. And I, for better or worse, I think a certain class of established privileged British man is exactly the kind of person to kind of push that level of, well, as long as we say it's gonna happen, it's gonna happen.

[Charlie Higson]

And just to see it as a practical problem, it needs solving and not worry too much about the fact that there's a corpse involved.

[David Cumming]

Yeah. That we could do this and never stop to think, should we do this?

[Charlie Higson]

I think there's a lot of parallels in this story with Alan Turing and Bletchley park and the sort of the behind the scenes men and women who are so vital to winning the award.

[David Cumming]

And then also because they're kind of cast gender blind, so that Natasha is playing Montague. And so it doesn't really look like you'd expect. You're getting certain power dynamics performed by actors you wouldn't expect to be in charge of each other. The Montagues, Ewan Montague's direct family came, sat on the front two rows. There was 12 of them, including his actual children, who were like in their 80s, maybe late 80s, and audibly, at one point, his son, audibly was like, which one is he? And his sister had to be like, it's that one. He was like, what the woman? Like, really loudly. We were like, yes, sir. Sorry. But when we walked out of the theater afterwards, Natasha walked out, she was terrified, of course. She was like, what? Cause we don't portray him in a bad light, but he's not necessarily the hero of the story. They turned around and one of them shouted, granddad. And ran over and gave her a big hug. And since then we're in contact with them. They've given her Monty's actual hat to take with her to Broadway. They really back the show. They've said that they feel it really sums up his humor and his vibe that he'd really like this version of events. It's the kind of show he'd be like, that's how you tell this story, which is a wonderful thing to be told as a writer, that you've summed up someone's essence.

[Charlie Higson]

It's interesting watching it, how quickly you forget or don't think about the genders of the different parts, because I guess part of it is because people are playing so many different things.

[David Cumming]

Yeah, this became something really fun in the part of Monty being played by a woman. It just wouldn't be quite as fun watching a man stomp around the stage being entitled. When you watch a woman do it, there's another level of, ah, it's a learnt behavior. And that therefore becomes funny because you're like this idiot. What's he doing? And then Hester is played by someone who doesn't identify as a woman, which adds, you rarely get to see non female bodies standing in kind of sadness and vulnerability for that long a time on stage. Usually they think they then move to violence either against themselves or against someone or anger. Whereas this person just stands there and is like, I'm deeply, deeply, deeply, deeply sad.

[Charlie Higson]

And at that point, were you thinking, let's try and make it a traditional music musical? What was your kind of approach?

[David Cumming]

We knew it was going to be a comedy because that's. We are comedy writers just finding what's the funny angle on this and then someone, one person going away writing an idea. We were very clear early on from the get go, in fact, that we didn't want the show to feel like it was 1943. So the design was all very bright colors. We were wearing costumes that were of the period, but our hair is slightly kind of modern or queer, you might say. And then the music, we were very clear on being like, it's not just going to be 1940s, like trumpets.

[Charlie Higson]

I mean, it's got everything you want for musical. The songs are, they tell the story, they show us the characters. They're very catchy.

[David Cumming]

Our rule was if it's not pushing the plot forward or it's not getting a laugh, than what's it doing in this story. And there is so much of this story. If you listen to any podcast or read, watch the film or read any of New Montague's books or any history books about it, there's just far too much to get into one show. And we tried to do it in the first version and one song ended up being 26 minutes long and we were like, that's insane. That's an act, that's not a song. And so we had to just start culling, which is a good position to be in. A lot of other musicals perhaps suffer from not having enough plot. So we were in a good position in that sense.

[Charlie Higson]

But if you're thinking about the genre of it, are you thinking, oh, the genre is musical or the genre is spy genre?

[David Cumming]

It's always been firmly a musical. I think we've now found the correct balance of heart alongside laughs.

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[Charlie Higson]

Your main character is Charles Cholmondeley. I was gonna ask you which is your favorite character in the show, but would you say Charles Chumley?

[David Cumming]

I mean, Charles is adorable and he's great. And he is the. The brains behind the mission. It would be churlish not to say him. I think our most fun creation is Spilsbury, who was a real person, but is an amalgamation in our show of Bentley Purchase, who was the real coroner, and Spilsbury, who was a pathologist. But we've amalgamated him into one man. Cause initially we had these two corpse guys. And everyone, you could see the audience be like, we've just met a corpse man. We don't need to meet another corpse man. So we made him a kind of all singing, dancing, bejeweled, kind of Rocky Horror show coroner man, who's really kind of turned on by corpses. Dare I say he's just a great creation. But obviously to play Charles is a gift. What a genius man. Very strange man also. But he's very fun and is a fish out of water in many different ways.

[Charlie Higson]

Yeah, I mean, you know, he's the classic sort of beta male.

[David Cumming]

Yes, absolutely.

[Charlie Higson]

Who has this idea.

[David Cumming]

Who has this idea, but not the wherewithal or the confidence to push it through. Which is where Ewan Montague comes in, who has all the confidence, all the wherewithal. He wants to be the man who won the war. And ultimately he kind of was. And it seemed from what we can tell, that Charles wasn't interested in any of that kind of side of it. And he kind of was happy to just step back. And when Monty was obsessed with getting his book out and obsessed with getting this film made, he was like, sure, don't use my name, call me George. Presumably because he was still working for MI5. He was like, I don't want anyone to know I'm a spy, dude. This is literally meant to be secret. So, yeah, it's an interesting interplay that they have. Cause they are completely chalk and cheese. And yet together they really do. They work on stage, but also they work very well as a team pushing this through.

[Charlie Higson]

Do you remember, well, either the first song you wrote or the first song you wrote where you thought, okay, we've got it, we know what we're doing now.

[David Cumming]

So early on, we wrote two songs for a scratch night in the Lowry in Manchester, which is when you just like take anything you have and just shove it in front of an audience. Mainly as a way to force ourselves to write. And those songs were one called Trout Ticklers, which was a sort of James Bond, Shirley Bassey, Diamonds Are Forever Esque kind of number. Where Admiral Godfrey comes in and says to these men, we need to trick the Nazis. We need to send out lures, which is literally what happened via a trout memo that Ian Fleming actually wrote.

[Charlie Higson]

Yes.

[David Cumming]

That Cholmondeley then found later in the Second World War and was like, hey, this has got some good ideas in it. One was Operation With Me, and that song was great and silly. It did have a great night. It was the chorus's trout tickler's beat Hitler's, which I still think is very good, but the annals of history shall not remember that. The other song, however, was one called God, that's Brilliant. And it was the different characters pitching all their crazy ideas. We'd read all these bits of history about all the crazy schemes that they were getting up to in World War II. Just many different hair brain schemes. And we were like, okay, this is a great chance to just have some comedy and a fun kind of patter song with a jazzy vibe.

[Claude]

Now Hitler's on the train or a.

[Indra Varma]

Boat or other vehicle.

[David Cumming]

We send in an assassin or a robot.

[Narrator]

That's illegal.

[Claude]

They shoot him and he's wearing a tuxedo. He kills the guards, smokes the girl and does something cool. We tie him up, we point him.

[David Cumming]

I think this plan is feared off.

[Claude]

We bring him back to Blighty, peel his trousers, blow his head off. Our victory's assured. Plus we go and win the war. No, God, that's freedom.

[David Cumming]

So we wrote that within the first couple of months of starting to make the show.

[Charlie Higson]

It's a comedy, but there are also some very moving bits in it. And inevitably, because of the subject matter, you know, you have to go into the darker side of the fact that it revolves around finding this corpse. But then, I guess with the daft character of you.

[David Cumming]

Spilsbury.

[Charlie Higson]

Yeah, Spilsbury, yeah. Did you do that as a way to. To soften that side of it, or did you just think that would be fun?

[David Cumming]

I think it's probably a bit of both. I think we thought that'd be fun just to be like, oh, it's funny if it's a singing, dancing coroner. Cause you don't expect them to be. But I think we were keen that, you know, this is real life, it's a war, and you're fighting a horrible enemy that isn't just people arguing over things. It's a deep evil that you're fighting. And it would be remiss of us to be flippant about any of this. Yes, our focus may be on comedy, but we're not laughing at war. But at moments of the show, such as in Dear Bill or Just for Tonight, when Monty and Chumlee are talking and he's like, look, I know it's difficult, but the only way to get through some things is to kind of go put a brave face on and have a night out. You can't always wallow in the sadness. The juxtaposition between the men in the submarine, they're out having a drink and then you're with the guys in the submarine who are quite literally risking their lives, almost ended up getting fired upon by German U boat and then sending this body off. And we really harshly juxtaposed those two things together in a hope to show the kind of double sided nature of war and that we as writers know the truth behind that. And then of course we have to deal at some point with the Nazis. And so early on we were like, we are not going to have them in scenes, we're not gonna have them talking. Cause once you start doing that, weirdly, you kind of start to humanize them. And so the way we do it was to. It's the most modern sounding song in the show. It comes out of absolutely nowhere. It's kind of almost techno Y. And we were looking at the kind of allure of the right wing. And what we came upon was like, you know, that kind of the simplicity of love told by a boy band of just come with me girl, just take off your clothes, it's all gonna be fine. There's no repercussions. Just do what I say. Exposing their ideology for how thin it is, but also how terrifyingly alluring it can be. Because if the world was that simple, wouldn't, wouldn't life be great? But it's not. It's as real as a boy band's love is.

[Charlie Higson]

So David, one of the things you've done in the show is, is to sort of give a starring role to Hester Leggett. This, this woman who was in charge of the. Well, she was sort of in charge of the secretaries in MI5. But it is believed that she probably wrote these amazing love letters.

[David Cumming]

Yes. So these love letters were part of this concept called wallet litter. If you were to drop dead right now, you'd probably have something on you, a wallet full of bits of your life. And if you're a soldier, you may well likely have letters from a loved one. And so they decided to write these letters for Bill from Pam. And they were passed around the office, they all tried to write them and they all came off as saccharine. From what? And then it seems that Hester Leggett Had a chance to write these and she was well known as a bit of a battle axe, a bit kind of very stiff upper lip. Ruled with an iron fist with all the girls. Yeah, exactly. But somehow was able to write these quite touching, beautiful letters. And so we thought we would then give her this song which comes out of nowhere, where she's tasked with writing it. And you watch the Dear Bill song and she's the showstopper. Yeah. And our song has a bit from it, which is, why do we meet in the middle of a war? What a silly thing for anyone to do. What a gorgeous bit. Gorgeous couplet. She's tasked with writing it and you watch her starts to kind of dictate writing it and then fall into a memory of a lost loved one.

[Hester Leggett]

And why did we meet in the middle of a war? What a silly thing for anyone to do. And I'm trying my best to write everything down, to fill in the gaps so that when you're around, it'll be like you've never been gone, as if you'd been here all along.

[David Cumming]

I mean, it's unexpected. You don't expect a comedy musical to have a six minute song that isn't a surprising tearjerker from a character who you were told has no heart. And then you're like, oh, actually this person does have a heart. Because of all, everyone has a heart. After Natasha sang that song, the Dear Bill song, and there was pure silence and we were like, oh, my God, what have we done? This is so embarrassing. And then they were like wiping their eyes and clapping and we were like, oh, right, okay, great. And, yeah, we don't know much about that character herself, but it seemed that because of that song, the audience really warmed to her.

[Charlie Higson]

The Dear Bill letter, which there's layers and layers underneath. And the implication is that Hester did have a great love affair.

[David Cumming]

Yeah. So we didn't know much about that character. And so we thought, okay, she's a bit older. Maybe if you make her old enough that she's already been through the First World War. She's part of a generation of women who went through, presumably, an extremely traumatic event, which is almost all the men of their generation died.

[Charlie Higson]

Except she was only 38.

[David Cumming]

Except she was only 38, which we didn't know at the time because there was no. We didn't know who she was.

[Charlie Higson]

Well, in the film, it's played by Penelope Wilton.

[David Cumming]

Yeah. Brilliant actress. Not 38, she's in her 70s. She is. She is. I think up until very recently, no one knew the exact age of Hester. And so we wondered. Cause she did write the real letter in real life. And we were just wondering, I remember thinking, saying, you know, what if the reason she could do this was because she used to write this kind of stuff. And that, you know, behind the stiff upper lip or behind any person could well be a heart that's in pain. And there's a whole musical there if you want to delve into it. And also the sense of that love is kind of, you know, in times of war, love is put on hold that a lot of people have to put things to one side. You put all. Everyone's love is put on hold during a war. And to have a story that's. And now that you have the lovely love bit, you're like, sure, people are dying, guys, if you don't maybe focus on that.

[Charlie Higson]

And I understand that fans of your show managed to track down Hester Leggett's family.

[David Cumming]

I mean, we tried to, but really all there was to go on was a name, Hester Leggett. And actually, frankly, we didn't down tools and try and go to the archives. We. I think we just didn't realize that you could do that. And Also there was 101 other things to do, not least of all write a musical. But once the show kind of grew and the fan base started to grow and then become more kind of actively involved in messaging us or wanting to know more about the show, the fan base, who affectionately call themselves the Mincefluencers, they took it upon themselves to try and find out more information about all the characters in the show. And we said, hey, we don't know anything about Hester. She's just a woman called Hester Leggett. ET and then a group of the Minsfluencers start finding out that, oh, actually some of us drove up the country to go to the National Archives to find out some more information. We could. Some of them were historians. And it turns out that a common historian trick is to try different spellings of names because quite easily they could be misspelled in records. And no one could really find Hester Leggett but Lester Legat. A few were found. They started matching dates around the war and they off their own back with encouragement from us, but certainly not. Cause it was anything to do with us. Literally located this woman in history and contacted MI5 and got a letter from MI5 being like, yes, Hester Leggatt did work at this time in that building in that section. And probably more than Likely worked on Operation Mincemeat. They then contacted the families. The family didn't know anything about this. And I think a book is coming out about how they've done this and that. They now have access to her. I mean, well, if she'd like this. They have access to her diaries and her love letters to people. And so, you know, it's really brought a kind of weird real life fact to have come from our fictional show is bizarre. And then the show, the building itself in the West End, we've put a plaque up in the Fortune Theater, in the Fortune Theatre, which quotes a little bit of the show. And then thanks all the team that found Hester, because in one of the songs the two women talk about, because they are women, they will never get their flowers and they will never get plaques. And so we felt it was time to right that wrong, as it were.

[Charlie Higson]

How important was it to you to stick to the truth? Or did the sort of the energy of the musical and what was required to make that work, did that start to take over? And was there a point where you said, well, it has to work as a show and if we have to change things, it's not the end of the world?

[David Cumming]

Yeah, I think initially we were. That's when you start to get into a sense of. And people would come up just being like, this is really exciting. Like, what is this? Other people would come up and say, you can't lie about history like this. You can't pretend that people did this. Like, okay, well, they did. So not much we can say about that. You can't change facts. We toyed with this idea of a truth alarm or a truth siren. A terrible idea, but of trying to let the audience know this did actually happen. They did have war magicians. They did use inflatable tanks. They did. It's all true. So we were very keen to get truth in there. But over time, our tired writers brains were like, but the beat needs to go this way and the truth goes this way. So we massage some time elements to make things fit a bit more satisfyingly for a theatrical arc. But what was really key for us was that we didn't lie about the character, the main five characters, and we tried to capture their essence as much as we could, or at least build an essence that we thought was right, because we didn't feel we could bring ourselves to be like. And then Monty and Jean have a salacious affair. It was like, well, there's no proof of that. They wrote each other love letters as Bill and Pam yes, that is fact. It's definitely not factual.

[Charlie Higson]

Cosplay.

[David Cumming]

Yeah, exactly. Which, you know, sure, it's the war. What's not necessarily true is that they then went on and consummated that as two, actually two real people. Not that we ever thought anyone would ever watch the musical beyond these five weeks, but we still didn't want to do that disservice. But as time has gone on, you realize that actually there's some things that you as writers really care about or think matter. And actually an audience are just like, I could not care less about the truth right now. I just want to feel happy, sad, joy, anger. And that's what they care about. And so there's certain elements, such as Major William Martin is the fake identity that they create for that person. He is from the Royal Navy and he is not the Air Force. But in our show we refer to him as a pilot because you need to explain quite succinctly in lyric form that he's going to crash in the sea. And any other way of doing that. You start having to list who people are in the army and people are like, why is this song existing? I'm so bored. But we still get letters to this day of people being like, you've got it wrong. And we're like, well, we had to make that choice in order for succinctness. And it is a constant play when you're adapting history in that sense of, is there a greater truth that I'm servicing by actually telling a white lie here?

[Charlie Higson]

Amazing. So the Mincefluencers sound like quite a formidable bunch. I mean, do they do that whole theatrical thing of turning up in. In character?

[David Cumming]

Sure, they absolutely do. We didn't know that they were going to do that.

[Charlie Higson]

Do they sing along or is that banned?

[David Cumming]

That's banned. That's banned. You didn't do any sing alongs. We have very strong feelings, in differing feelings as to how we feel now. And until all of us are aligned, we're gonna say no singing along. We might at one point have a sing along, but it's too much at this stage. But a dress up, fine. And there was. I think it was. We found out online that there was something called Operation Interesting Man. They give themselves their own operations to do, which is the first time was 70 people. The next time I think was 250 or 270 people came in dress up from as like not just the main characters. Someone dressed up like a jug of sangria. I'm gonna say no one's seen the show. But Brian the lung from the draw in soots, Pillsbury's office, like, really out there. Costumes that nobody like, weird references that nobody would get. And they're just having a whale of a time. And what's really nice is that the show for them has become like, it's a place for a new community that seems to be. It's quite a queer community and also quite a neurodiverse community. Cause I think they see that reflected in the show, in the presentation of the show and the presentation of the characters. That Chumlee reads quite kind of. He's different, but brilliant with it. And there's a kind of a joy to that. Everyone is kind of praised or everyone is given a space to be part of that team in their own best way, and they don't have to conform to something else. And they found each other and now created this really wonderful, loving, caring group of people who now is now transatlantic.

[Charlie Higson]

So at the heart of the original Operation Mincemeat, and to a certain extent with your musical, is this figure of Glyndwer Michael, this homeless man whose body was dressed up as William Marting. Sometimes they're thinking, well, this is a real man, this is a corpse. And sometimes they're thinking, well, we just got to do it to make the operation work. And then right at the end, you do talk about him, and it's very moving, as is the scene which, again, you touched on before, with the sailors out at sea, quite somber. They realize that their special package that they're launching into the ocean is a person, a dead person, I think, really put us very much on the front line of what it's like for the people who were fighting the war and the fact that, well, there's a dead body at the core of it.

[David Cumming]

So, as you say, Glyndor is this kind of. He's kind of a ghost in the show that is in the background. You hear that this body has been taken. A couple of characters do ask, what's his name? And a few of the other characters say, it's not important. Or Monty later on says, he doesn't matter. And so you see these sailors, these submariners, they sung at him and then said a prayer as they put him up to sea. They treated him with respect in a way that I wouldn't say that Monty and Tommy didn't have respect for him, but they were. I think they had to see him as a tool and they had to do relatively nasty things. They had to defrost him so he could Fit into things and take pictures of him because they had to. And so I think there's a slight disconnect there that they must have had to have as to who this person really was.

[Charlie Higson]

Yeah. And I guess they would deliberately do that, not try and find out too much about him. Treat him as he is part of this.

[David Cumming]

Yeah. And I think he became Bill right in their heads that he's this being that they've created that can be whatever they want. As to whether, I'm pretty sure they didn't actually ask the family. I think Ewan Montague claimed when he wrote the redacted official government version of what happened in this, in his book, he was like, oh, we definitely went and asked the family.

[Charlie Higson]

I gave that he didn't have any family.

[David Cumming]

Well, no, it's really difficult as writers to work out how to put that person in your show. But now he thankfully was remembered because Monty had been stealing files. We did find out who this person actually was. And then there was many petitions 50 years afterwards to get his name, actually his real name, put on the headstone in Huelva. Cause obviously when he was buried as Major William Martin, which is the fake person. So it's Glyndor Michael who served as Major William Martin. These arcs we've created don't matter as much as everyone realizing behind all of this is a real human.

[Charlie Higson]

And there he is now on Broadway.

[David Cumming]

But yeah, and now people know him and he becomes an allegory for how everyone matters, like, at all levels. That even someone who in their life mattered so little that they slipped through the nets of society, can in death be the very thing that props up the entire system that didn't care about them. It's kind of. It's mind blowing for that to be true. And we sing about, if it's down, it's down together. If it's up, it's up as one. As a way of being, you know, everyone from the top to the bottom matters. So, yeah, it does feel good to have righted that wrong.

[Charlie Higson]

I guess it works very well. And do you think you would have made a good agent? I mean, rather than an agent in the field, maybe someone like Cholmondeley doing that backstage. Because, I mean, it's really interesting that so many great English writers of the 20th century at some point worked for Secret Service. Whether it's Somerset Maughan, Graham Greene, Johnna Carey in Fleming and that sort of creative side and using different approaches, I.

[David Cumming]

Certainly think, like being in a writer's room or with a group of fellow Writers is a little bit like, you bounce off each other's ideas. You finesse things. Whether or not I would be subtle enough to be an agent, I'm not sure. I think maybe I could. I know that Noel Coward was sent out because he had access to lots of rooms where lots of ambassadors were. He was well known as being funny and good with lyrics, but not particularly quick. They used that to allow him to sit next to people and hear state secrets. Everyone's like, well, he's not gonna tell anyone. He's just this entertainer man. So I think I could get away with that.

[Charlie Higson]

So finally, David, what do you hope audiences take away from your version of this story?

[David Cumming]

We want to send people out happier than they came in, and hopefully they spread that happiness, but also with a sense of that anything is kind of possible. That five weirdos can change the course of Nazism or the encroachment of Nazism on this world. And I hope it puts a fire in the bellies of an audience who are unfortunately facing a present where these things have become more and more real. And I hope it gives them a sense of, one, laughter through the dark times. And two, that actually this fight has been fought before and that it can be done with humor and with great thinking and camaraderie. And if we all pull together, it's not just the people at the top that get things through. It's everyone pulling together as a community that actually makes change and that makes good, real.

[Charlie Higson]

Thank you, David. That was really interesting and well, obviously, good luck.

[David Cumming]

Thank you. I'm gonna need.

[Charlie Higson]

Really is a brilliant show and all spy fans should make a point of seeing it. Well, in fact, you know, if you just like a good entertaining night owl, it's funny, it's moving, it's incredibly well put together. You can catch the show in London's Fortune Theatre, and it's just opened on Broadway, which is where you can see David perform as Charles Cholmondeley and many other characters. And I do love stories that look at the unsung heroes. Well, they are now sung heroes in this musical, but the people behind the scenes who are working hard and often completely anonymously to make everything work and to win a war, you need all types of people. You need tough, brave young people to go out there and be on the front line. But you need also weird, interesting, different people back home coming up with ideas, coming up with solutions, solving problems all the time. And of course, those are the people who normally don't feature in in stories. Thank you for listening and do Join us for our next episode of the Spy who hosted by Indra Varma.

[Indra Varma]

Next time we open the file on Hardy Amy's the Spy who Dressed the Queen the fashion designer lives in two worlds, one of elegance where he dresses Hollywood icons, sports heroes and royalty and another in the shadows where he or assassinations in Nazi occupied Belgium. But his latest operation threatens to come undone at the seams. Follow the Spy who Now Wherever you listen to podcasts, Wondery plus subscribers can binge full seasons of the Spy who early and ad free on Apple Podcasts or the Wondery app.

[Charlie Higson]

From Wondery. This is the final episode in our series the Spy who Duped Hitler. This episode of the Spy who is hosted by me, Charlie Higson. Our show is produced by Vespucci for Wondery with story consultancy by Yellow Ant. For Vespucci. Our senior producer are Ashley Clivery and Philippa Geering. Our sound designer is Iver Manley. Rachel Byrne is the supervising producer. Music supervisor is Scott Velasquez for Frisson Sync. Executive producers for Vespucci are Johnny Galvin and Daniel Turco. The executive producer for Yellow Ant is Tristan Donovan. Our senior producer for Wondery is Theodora Laloux and our senior managing producer for Wondery is Rachel Sibley. Executive producers for Wondery are Estelle Doyle, Chris Bourne and Marshall Louie.