Loading summary
Transcript135 lines
- [00:00]
Tracy Thomas
Okay y'all, it's the holiday season, which likely means you've got a lot on your plate. And I have something that can help you make your life a little easier. And it isn't what you're thinking. It is Miracle Made Sheets. How can she help in this crazy time of life, you might ask? Well, let me count the ways. 1. They have thermoregulating technology inspired by NASA that helps you to stay cool and comfortable all night long. That means better sleep. 2. The silver infused fabrics prevent up to 99.7% of bacterial growth, leaving them to stay cleaner and fresher three times longer. That means you're doing less chores, changing and washing your sheets. 3. Less bacteria. That also means clearer, cleaner skin, less acne. And four these sheets make an incredible gift you're giving the luxury hotel sheet experience without the luxury price tag. So now Miracle Made has helped you have more sleep, less laundry, cleaner skin and checked off a gift to give to that difficult person on your list. Go to try miracle.com the stacks to try Miracle Made sheets today and whether you're buying them for yourself or as a gift for a loved one, if you order today you can save over 40% and if you use our promo code the stacks at checkout you'll get three free towels and save an extra 20%. Miracle is so confident in their product it is backed by a 30 day money back guarantee. So if you aren't 100 satisfied, you'll get a full refund. Upgrade your sleep with Miracle Made, go to try miracle.com the stacks and use the code the stacks to claim your free three piece towel set and save over 40% off. Again, that's try miracle.com the stacks to treat yourself thank you Miracle Made for sponsoring this episode. Welcome to the Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host Tracy Thomas and today I am so excited to welcome Jessica Valenti to the show. Jessica is a journalist, feminist, author and activist known for her influential work on gender politics and reproductive rights. Her latest book, Abortion Our Bodies, Their Lies and the Truths We Use to Win offers a powerful exploration of the fight for reproductive freedom. Today, Jessica and I talk about why she wanted to write this book and how it was influenced by her substack. We talk about what tools people can take into the real world when having conversations about abortion and we talk about what all this new anti abortion legislation is really about. Don't forget our book club pick for October is the Nickel Boys by Colson Whitehead and we will be discussing that book on Wednesday, October 30th with Franklin Leonard. Quick reminder, everything we talk about on each episode of the Stacks can be found in the link in the show notes. If you love this show and you want inside access to it, please head over to patreon.com thestacks and join the stacks pack. For just $5 a month, you get to be part of the best bookish community. You get to join our Discord, come to our monthly virtual book club meetups. You get bonus episodes. And you get to know by joining the Stacks Pack, you make it possible for me to make this show every single week. Another perk is that you get a shout out on this very show. So here's a special shout out to some of our newest members of the Stacks package. Gene Kawahara, Sadiq Fofana, Courtney Johnson and Julie Sally. Thank you all so much. And listeners, if you're sitting there and you're thinking, I want to support the Stacks, but I don't really want to be on a Discord, whatever that is, well, you can subscribe to my newsletter. It's called unstacked. At Tracy thomas.substack.com you can get updates with what I've got going on. You can hear my hot takes on books and pop culture. And by doing that, you also get to support the stacks. So head to Tracy Thomas substack.com and subscribe. Okay, now it is time for my conversation with Jessica Valenti. All right, everybody, I'm so excited. Today I am joined by Jessica Valenti. Her new book is called Abortion Our Bodies, Their Lies and the Truths We Use to win. I have to just say it is exactly the book that you want. When you're going to those conversations with those people and you know exactly who those and they are. But Jessica, welcome to the Stacks.
- [04:33]
Jessica Valenti
Thank you for having me. And I'm so glad to hear you say that. That was exactly the hope. So that that means a lot.
- [04:38]
Tracy Thomas
Yes. I mean, let's say we can start with just like a little bit about the book, but I, I want to talk about audience desperately. So let's just start with like 30 seconds or so. Will you tell folks about abortion?
- [04:49]
Jessica Valenti
Sure. The book on the last two plus years of reporting I've done on abortion for a daily newsletter that I keep called Abortion Every Day, where I'm really tracking every single thing that's happening with abortion rights, whether it's, you know, bans and policy or anti abortion strategy or the really terrible horror stories that we're hearing come out of Anti Choice states, and there's so much there. And the hope with the newsletter was to really provide a little bit of order to the chaos. And so with the book, I wanted to do the same thing, but sort of exactly as you said, give folks a tool for these conversations and sort of give them the information, the context, the language that they need to go out and evangelize for abortion rights. Because I hear from so many people, young women especially, that they care so much about this issue that they really want to be out doing something, but that they feel not as confident as they would like to be. And so the hope with the book is that it will arm them with all of. All of that stuff, all of the information, all of the confidence that they need to go out and. And have the conversations that they want to be having.
- [06:09]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, I mean, I think it does exactly that. One of the reasons that I wanted to have you on this month is obviously, there's this election coming up. Not sure, just a little one, but, yeah, just a small little thing, like just a few things are on the ballot. I don't know. But so on this show, we've sort of focused the last three weeks on election issues, and I would, you know, there's so many. Right. And I was like, I'm not sure what. What I wanted to. To do. So I've been reading a lot of books that are sort of in it, and as soon as I started your book, I was like, okay, Jessica has to come on the show, because, like, this is exactly the thing. And so my question for you is, like, you mentioned early in the book, you know, there's like, are you preaching to the choir? And you say, no, I'm not preaching to the choir. I'm arming the choir. And I want to know if you can talk a little bit about this idea of, like, echo chamber and how people are sort of use that pejoratively and why you think it's actually powerful to sort of speak in an echo chamber.
- [07:02]
Jessica Valenti
Yeah, no, I mean, listen, that's my entire job. And this is something I think about a lot as an opinion writer, as someone who's been, you know, writing columns and feminist books for a really long time. I'm really well aware that there's not going to be, like, some magical moment with a conservative who reads a column of mine who reads my book, and they change their mind automatically.
- [07:28]
Tracy Thomas
Right.
- [07:28]
Jessica Valenti
Sometimes it happens. You know, it can.
- [07:30]
Tracy Thomas
Right.
- [07:30]
Jessica Valenti
But that's not really what tends to happen. What tends to happen is that someone who is already on board reads something I've written and it articulates for them, it gives them the language that they need to go out and to change that person's mind, that uncle, that father in law, that roommate, whoever it is. Because that's how people's minds get changed, right? It's through their personal connections, through their family, through their friends, through those sort of ongoing conversations. And so that is who I am trying to reach. I am trying to arm the choir and give them everything that they need so that they can go out and change people's hearts and minds. And so to me, it's really incredibly important. And the other thing, especially in a moment like this one, I think is having that commiseration and feeling like you're not alone in this. You know, I think it's really easy when you're reading these horror stories, right, to feel, am I crazy? Am I the only one who is so furious about this? Or am I the only one who sees what's happening? And I hear this from readers all the time. And so I think to channel some of that anger, to just be able to be in community with people who are feeling the same way that you do, is incredibly important, incredibly powerful, and helps people care about this issue another day.
- [08:50]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, we were going to talk about this later, but since you brought it up, do you find that there's any, like, particularly effective strategies for talking about this, talking about abortion with your conservative uncle or your anti choice mom or whatever, like what actually works?
- [09:09]
Jessica Valenti
Yeah, I think the thing I say most is ask questions, right. I think that we. It's so easy to go into this defensive mode where you're like, that's not right, that's totally wrong. What are you talking about? That's horrible. And of course that immediately shuts people down. And of course, I want to preface this by saying, you know, I don't think that we should talk to brick walls. Right. Like, I do believe that your activist energy is a precious resource and that you should use it carefully. But of course, there are people who we care about and there's people whose minds that we do want to change or who we think are reachable. And so I think when someone says something to you that just seems totally out of pocket, like, ridiculous about abortion, the ability to say, huh? What makes you say that? Like, where did you hear that? Like, tell me more about that. And making people feel heard. And oftentimes you'll the entry point for conversation for all of these facts and stats and arguments, hopefully that you write in my book or at the newsletter, you'll find an entry point for that. And I also often find there's so much misinformation. There's so much misinformation that the ability to combat that misinformation and disinformation and tell people the truth is really powerful. And I think the other thing that really works is personal stories, is sharing personal stories. Right? Everyone. Renee Bracey Sherman, who's an amazing writer, has said many times, everyone loves someone who's had an abortion. We all know someone who's had an abortion. And ability to talk about those personal stories, talk about like the real lives behind this issue that works. Like, there is a reason that Republican politicians, anti abortion groups are so obsessed with talking about abortion, you know, in terms of 6 weeks versus 12 weeks versus 20 weeks. Or they want people to forget the real lives behind these policies. And I think bringing it back to those real lives as much as possible is, is what works.
- [11:13]
Tracy Thomas
And I think, I think, I mean, you talk about this in the book, but I think that's what's so sort of like me, like nefarious about the criminalization of abortion is it's like, well, I, I would love to tell you my story about abortion, but I live in Texas and like, I don't want to have someone be able to call and have me arrested. And it's so, it makes it so that one of the most powerful tools becomes questioned. And I think like, that is very scary.
- [11:42]
Jessica Valenti
That is so important to talk about. And I'm so glad that you brought it up because that is a huge strategy. Right? Like that chilling effect is it's a huge part of the strategy in anti abortion states where you're making people too afraid to go to each other for support to, to help each other to have these conversations. And that's one of the things that makes me so frustrated about anti abortion groups and anti abortion politicians calling themselves like the party of family values or saying that they care about family and community. When you are breaking communities up, you are incentivizing people turning each other in. Like family members turning each other in. Like there could not be anything less family values than, than that.
- [12:26]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, you talked about misinformation a little bit. And one of the things that I still don't fully understand and I would love for you to explain because I know that I'm not alone in, which is why this talking point that we keep seeing J.D. vance and Donald Trump do about we want to give it to the states to choose, why is that like, particularly bad? I think like literally yesterday we were at a five year old's birthday party and one of the other kids grandmas was telling my husband, who's an ob gyn, how she thinks states should choose. And, and my husband was like this, he's like, I just got out of the craziest conversation with this old anti abortion lady. I was like, what happened? And he's like, she keeps talking about states rights. States rights. And so I want you to explain for me, but also for everyone else why it's not a states right issue or why it's dangerous if it becomes one.
- [13:19]
Jessica Valenti
Sure. I mean from an ethical, moral point of view. Right. Like we're talking about people's freedom and bodily integrity. Like this, this should not shift from state to state. Like your ability to access health or should not change depending on your geographic location. That is absurd, you know, ridiculous. The other thing that I think is so telling about this talking point, there's a reason that they are using this idea of back to the states or the will of the people, the votes of the people. They are using language like that because they know that Americans overwhelmingly want abortion to be legal. Right. We are taught abortion bans are laws that a small group of extremist legislators are passing against the wishes of the vast majority of voters. And they do not want people to remember that. And so that is why they use language that makes it sound like people have a choice, like you are going to get to decide. They are giving a false illusion of control and choice, which is especially important for Republican women and white women voters who are leaning Republican. They want to believe that this won't impact them, that they will have a choice. Right. The truth is that you don't even this, this idea of we're giving it back to the states, states are voting. What they don't like to mention is that in every single state where abortion has been on the ballot, Republicans have done every single thing they possibly can to keep that issue off the ballot. They do not want voters to have a direct say on this issue because they know that when voters have a direct say, abortion rights wins. And that's why you're seeing, you know, Ohio, they won. The lead up to that was absurd. They had, you know, they were using the power of the state to influence this campaign where they had the Secretary of State writing biased ballot summaries. In Missouri, they were sending out text messages warning people not to sign a pro choice petition because activists were trying to steal your identity. Like they're pulling out all of these really bananas sort of dirty tricks to stop people from. From having a say. And then of course, that doesn't even get into gerrymandering, voter suppression. Right. The fact that in a lot of these states, people just do not have a say at all. Their legislators are not representing them. Right. And so it just again, is giving this false illusion of choice where there is none. Like abortion really, truly is an issue that voters have moved past. Voters want abortion to be legal.
- [15:55]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, period.
- [15:56]
Jessica Valenti
Yeah, period. It's done. Like, you know, I think there's this. I think anti abortion groups and politicians really, really want to make it seem like this is an issue the country is polarized over. They're not. This is not an issue the country is split on. People want abortion to be legal. And I think the more that we talk about that too, the more helpful it is.
- [16:17]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. I mean, why do you feel that the left, the Democrats, who, people who are pro, you know, abortion rights, why are they ceding that point? Why are they taking that for granted? It just, to me, it. I know that we always talk about, like, how Democrats always fumble the bag and like they can, you know, they can fuck up just about anything. But this, to me is so. It's baffling. And I'm sure you feel the same way because you spend all day thinking about this. But, like, why can't, why can't they get the messaging on this? Right? Not only do people want it, it's also like a net positive for all Americans. Right. Like, it's a good thing. As you say in the book. I think the first or second chapter is like, abortion is good. Why can't they talk about it? Why can't they even, even if they don't want to go that far and say abortion is good, fine, I get it, Whatever. Yeah, be a puritan. But like, why can't they say abortion is pop? Like, women's health care is popular and we support the will of the people. Like, I just, it. I'm like shaking because it makes me so. What? What is it? What the fuck is this?
- [17:30]
Jessica Valenti
I wish I could answer that question about that specifically about, like, the votes. And this is an issue that voter support. I don't know, because to me, that is such a powerful message to remind voters they are doing this against your will. They are passing these laws that no one wants. They know. They know in these states that voters want abortion to be legal and they're passing these laws anyway. I don't know what messaging firm is telling Democrats, you know, listen, their messaging has gotten better. I will say that. Right. Like, they have gotten better on this issue. It used to be that the only thing they said about abortion was safe, legal, and rare. They were afraid to use the word abortion. They just said choice. Right. And so we have made a lot of progress. We have.
- [18:14]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [18:15]
Jessica Valenti
But not enough. I really do wish that there was that conversation in particular. I will say one thing that does give me hope, though, and I wrote about this a little bit in the newsletter, is the way that Kamala Harris has started to talk about abortion as it relates to the deaths of Candy Miller and Amber Nicole Thurman in Georgia. She gave a speech in Georgia where she talked about abortion as a normal part of someone's life, something normal that they chose. Right. Like when politicians talk about abortion, pro choice politicians. It is often the most tragic circumstances, the most tragic stories. Right. Like, they are often talking about wanted pregnancies gone wrong, people who are sexually assaulted, who can't get care. She talked about Amber Nicole Thurman. You know, I don't want to butcher exactly what she said, but she was talking about, you know, this is a woman, she had her life planned out. She had her son. She was going to nursing school. She had just gotten this apartment. She had a plan for her life, and it was her plan. And so when she got pregnant, she decided to have an abortion. Like, she made it a part of. Like, this was not part of her plan. And that's fine. It's fine to have an abortion, not because, you know, some horrible thing happened, but because it wasn't what you wanted for your life. And to me, that's one of the most powerful things that we can be talking about, because this isn't for, you know, 95% of people have abortions. This isn't a wanted pregnancy gone wrong. This isn't, you know, something that happened because of a sexual attack. It's because you didn't want to be pregnant. And that is just as moral and good and important as any other abortion. And they want to take. It's like they're not just taking our health care away. They're taking our right to determine the course of our own lives away. And what could be more important. Important than that?
- [20:04]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. And you talk about there's no such thing as compromise around abortion. And you talk about sort of like these. A thing that the. The right uses is like, oh, there's an exception for this. But you talk about how there's really no exceptions. Can you explain that a little bit to folks? Because I don't. I think there are people who are pro choice but feel that a person who gets an abortion for any reason that isn't an extreme or dire circumstance is somehow morally compromised. So I'd love to hear you talk a little bit about why you don't think there's such thing as compromise around abortion and what is actually happening with these quote unquote exceptions and why they aren't real.
- [20:47]
Jessica Valenti
Sure. I mean, again, it gets back to the idea of you're talking about someone's freedom, bodily integrity, bodily autonomy, ability to choose their own life. There cannot be compromise. You know, there just can't be compromise on that. And the minute you start to legislate pregnancy and bodies and health, you are getting into extraordinarily dangerous territory, as we've seen. And no amount of exceptions can change that. The truth, and I know that you know this, your husband's an ob gyn. Pregnancy is far too complicated to legislate. There are a million and one things that can go wrong. And in this country, especially where pregnancy is dangerous, pregnancy can be deadly, you cannot morally, ethically ask someone to take on that risk against their will. Right. Like, I don't think we talk enough about this is not like, oh, abortion is legal. You are forcing people to carry a pregnancy to risk their health and lives against their will.
- [21:54]
Tracy Thomas
Right.
- [21:55]
Jessica Valenti
That to me is just extraordinary. And with exceptions in particular, this idea, you know, Republicans have really focused on this a lot in the last few months because they think it's a way to sort of like soften their image with voters. But exceptions don't work. Exceptions are deliberately crafted not to be used. Right. Like when this is not something where politicians got in a room and they're like, okay, how can we make sure that people who are raped or people who are victims of incest can have access to care? They got in a room and said, how can we make it as difficult as possible for these people to get care? Right. Like, there's a reason that in so many states, rape exceptions, for example, require a police report. It's because they know that victims don't report to, don't want to do it.
- [22:39]
Tracy Thomas
Right.
- [22:40]
Jessica Valenti
So it's like they took the things that, that they knew about victims and weaponized that and it just makes it so, so incredibly cruel. And one of the things I write about in the book, I think that one of, one of the cruelest exceptions are the so called exceptions for fatal fetal abnormalities. Right? Yeah. No, Americans don't want to force people to carry doomed pregnancies to term. That is obscene. It is Obscene. But they're writing these laws to do just that. Right. Like when they do have exceptions and they often don't. Right. Like the, the so called compromise week abortion ban that Republicans are pushing on a national level that would force women to carry June pregnancies to term. Right. In the states that do have an exception, they write it in such a way that again, it's impossible to use. So they'll say things like, you can only get it if it is uniformly diagnosable. There's hardly anything that's uniformly diagnosable. Right. Or they will deliberately not define or leave vague what constitutes a fatal abnormality. Is something fatal if a newborn would live for a few days, a few hours? Or do they need to die immediately upon birth? Right, right. They. And again, that is all deliberate. They are doing that so that people cannot access care.
- [24:05]
Tracy Thomas
Right.
- [24:06]
Jessica Valenti
And, and we've seen the consequences of that. We've seen in Texas, you know, someone like Samantha Casiano vomiting on the stand while talking about being forced to give birth to a baby that was never going to live, being forced to watch her daughter die. Obscene is just the word that like, just rolls through my mind multiple times a day.
- [24:26]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. And another point that you make in the book, and this is, I think one of the, like through lines of this podcast in the last few years has been a lot about abolition. And one of the things you talk about in this book is pregnancy as punishment. That sort of the thing that is consistent is that there's this desire to punish women. I think in some cases it's very clear what for? For, for having unprotected sex. For. Not for their plan failing. But what do you think that it's for? Like, why are we punishing women who have babies? Like you mentioned a child who it never. Their head never forms. Like, why should that woman, like, what, what's the punishment? Isn't the punishment already for her that she has to know that her child is never going to be like, able to be alive? Like, I don't understand. I guess that part of it I understand that like don't have sex girls, but I don't understand, like, dear married woman who has three children, like, you have to suffer.
- [25:27]
Jessica Valenti
I mean, I think a lot of those women, I think the anti abortion movement sees them as collateral damage, that they are willing to let those people suffer in order to win politically, in order to win a right. And that's something I write about when it comes to like the forced C sections, for example. Right.
- [25:47]
Tracy Thomas
Where I know which is so insane surgery Are you crazy?
- [25:54]
Jessica Valenti
Like, yeah, you know, they're talking about like at 14, 15 weeks where it's like, there's not going to be any. There's no fetal survival right that early. Like, like it's solely, solely to be able to push this talking point that abortion is never necessary to save someone's health or life. They want to be able to say, no, abortion is never necessary to save someone's health or life. You can just give them a C section. You can just force them to go into vaginal labor. And so they're willing to torture women.
- [26:24]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, but isn't that aborting a pregnancy still, like, I know it's a different. It's not a DNC or it's not a pill, but like you're still terminating a pregnancy when you deliver a baby at 14 weeks because they're no longer pregnant and the baby's not like, I don't. So it's just, it's just performance art.
- [26:44]
Jessica Valenti
It's just performance art. And that's why, you know, they've come up with these terms. That's the reason I have like a glossary at the end of the book. They've come up with these terms like maternal fetal separation. They are just so desperate, so desperate to make it appear as if abortion is not health care. Abortion is never necessary to save someone's health or life. Even though, yeah, you know, that that pregnancy is going to end. And what is so extraordinarily cruel about this is that they will talk about, well, we want to do that to preserve dignity for the fetus. What about this person's dignity? Like forcing someone to a major abdominal surgery rather than a 10min procedure, which is medically standard. There is no such thing as our dignity in these circumstances. Right. And that's where they give away the game, like, really and truly, where you are no longer seen as a person. Not like ethically, constitutionally, any of it.
- [27:47]
Tracy Thomas
Right. And. And you talk about this in the book as well. Kind of on this punishment or like carceral side of this is like there are situations where not only are people's families and friends turning them in, but also like nurses and doctors and, and we've talked about this a lot on this podcast actually, because it's really common that, you know, in schools, teachers become the police. In hospitals, doctors and nurses become the police. But there's a flip side of that, which is that doctors and nurses are not able to get the training to have the, like to be able to provide the care that they need. Like for an ob gyn you have to know how to perform an abortion. That is standard of training. Like, and so in these states now, doctors, they're having to send residents to other states to be able. Like it's just.
- [28:38]
Jessica Valenti
Yeah, they're sending them to other states there or they're making them learn on models like who do you want if you have a miscarriage and you need a miscarriage treatment? If you need an abortion, who do you want doing that? Like, do you want someone who learned on a model?
- [28:52]
Tracy Thomas
Right.
- [28:52]
Jessica Valenti
Do you want someone who had to travel to another state and sleep on a hotel room floor because they're paying for it themselves and learned with someone who's not their regular teacher? Right. Or do you want someone who knows how to do this like the back of their hand because they've been adequately professionally trained?
- [29:07]
Tracy Thomas
Right.
- [29:07]
Jessica Valenti
That it's like it's a whole other ripple effect that we don't talk about enough. That it's not just, you know, the suffering on the ground, the lack of health care. We're talking about devastating, ruining a new generation of reproductive health care providers, losing historical knowledge. It's so incredibly dangerous. And there's a reason why we're seeing ob gyns leave anti abortion states. They're just leaving. You know, Idaho lost 25% of its OB gyns, I think half of its maternal fetal medicine specialists and in turn, of course maternity wards are closing, which in turn of course leads to increased maternal health deserts which is killing people. And what is so distressing, I mean there's a lot distressing about it, but when someone dies because of a maternal health desert, Right. That's not going to be counted as a death because of an abortion ban. But it is. But it is. If an abortion ban has driven all of the OB GYNs out of a state and therefore now people have to travel two hours to go give birth and they die as a result of that. That is on anti abortion politicians hands.
- [30:14]
Tracy Thomas
Right, right. And again, another added thing is that doctors who are performing standard health care abortions are also being attacked and arrested. And like, so it's like why would. If you're just a regular everyday doctor. Let me put it this way, I would tell Mr. Stacks that we are leaving and you can practice somewhere else. That's what I would say as the wife of a physician, like, oh, you're gonna go to jail over this. Like, like we've got, we've got our own family. Like, no, no, why would you stay? Like to be a hero, I guess. Which thank you for people who are staying and doing it. But like I'm selfish and I don't want my husband in jail for doing his everyday job.
- [30:56]
Jessica Valenti
It's really, there is, there's been a few studies about there is a really awful mental health crisis among OB GYNs because of these laws. Right. Like the moral distress that they are under where they do have to choose do I leave or do I do I stay to try to help as many patients as I can. Am I abandoning my patients? You know, but a lot of reproductive healthcare providers are of reproductive age themselves. They have their own families, they have young children. Right. To ask them to put their families in danger, to maybe have to leave their child because they go to jail, it is an impossible situation that they are putting these, these doctors and, and nurses and healthcare providers in.
- [31:44]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. I can even see how like in the moment, even if you're not thinking about like repercussions, knowing that there's an easy solution and like feeling like your hands are tied is probably like, that's probably really hard mentally too. Being like, I could literally do this 10 minute thing, but instead I have to sit here and watch you bleed until you've bled enough to be in a situation where I can save your life. But then like, also that means I have to call in two other doctors and three other nurses and the anesthesiologist and get blood and like all that, like, I can imagine the stress.
- [32:15]
Jessica Valenti
Careful, careful records and make sure I'm legally covered. Do I need to go to the hospital lawyer to, to okay, this it is. And they, you know, in a lot of these states they can't even talk about it. Right. Like, it's not just that they can't perform the procedure, they can't tell someone where to get an abortion somewhere else.
- [32:35]
Tracy Thomas
Oh, I see. Yeah.
- [32:36]
Jessica Valenti
And that is, you know, there have been cases where, you know, women, I've spoken to women who left Texas to go to New Mexico for care. And the Texas doctors felt like they couldn't legally send their medical records to New Mexico. Right. And so it puts people in danger in all sorts of, of ways.
- [32:57]
Tracy Thomas
Isn't it crazy that we can't just have access to our own medical records? Like, it's my record. Why do I need you to send it? Hand it to me and I will. Like, it's my, like that's even a whole crazy part of the puzzle. Let's take a quick break and we'll be right back. Running a business means wearing a lot of hats. But shopify helps you focus on what really matters, selling your product and growing your brand. Whether you're starting a small side hustle or scaling up, Shopify makes it easy to manage everything in one place place. It's the platform I use for all of the Stacks merch and it has turned what could have been a total logistical nightmare into something that is seamless, runs smoothly and I basically never think about what I love most about Shopify is how intuitive it is. Analytics, payments, inventory, marketing. It's all ready to go and it's all in one place. And with tools like Shop Pay, which boosts conversions by up to 50%, Shopify ensures every sale count amounts. It's like having an extra set of hands to handle the details so you can stay focused on creating and connecting with your customers, upgrade your business and get the same checkout we use with Shopify. Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.com the stacks all lowercase go to shopify.com the stacks to upgrade your selling today. Shopify.com the stacks hey y'all, I wanted to take a little more time to tell you about what's going on on the Stacks Pack. Patreon. This is of year that I encourage folks to join because there are some awesome, awesome perks. First and foremost, you get everything. You get all year long. Bonus episodes, access to the Discord community, which is alive and well. You get to join our monthly virtual book clubs where we talk about whatever our book club pick has been for the previous month. Plus there's some other seasonal perks you have access to if you join. Now we have a reading tracker that goes out in December and you can only access it from December to January, so you must must sign up now so that you get it when it drops. We also have the Stackies, which are the Stacks Pack exclusive literary awards. Only members of the Stacks Pack and subscribers to the newsletter can vote on which books are the best books of the year. And lastly, we have a mega challenge that is A list of 52 reading prompts to shake up your reading life and that is exclusive to the Stacks Pack. So if you love this podcast, if you want to support the work that I do, if you want to make it possible for me to continue doing this work, go to patreon.com the stacks and join the Stacks Pack. And now you're able to gift a subscription to the Stacks Pack to the other readers in your Life. Head to patreon.com the stacks find all the information there and I really hope that you'll become part of this amazing.
- [35:42]
Jessica Valenti
Community after investing billions to light up our network. T Mobile is America's largest 5G network. Plus right now you can switch keep your your phone and we'll pay it.
- [35:53]
Tracy Thomas
Off up to $800.
- [35:55]
Jessica Valenti
See how you can save on every.
- [35:56]
Tracy Thomas
Plan versus Verizon and AT&T. @t mobile.com KeepAndSwitch up to four lines.
- [36:03]
Jessica Valenti
Via virtual prepaid card. Allow 15 days qualifying unlock device credit service ported 90 plus days with device ineligible carrier and timely redemption required. Card has no cash access and expires in six months.
- [36:15]
Tracy Thomas
Okay, we are back. I want to talk a little. This is sort of a question that I've had that you talk about in the book, but I would love it explained more for me and everyone else is like a lot of, I've heard a lot of people talking about how like the banning of abortion is like the first step, but then it's going to be birth control and then it's going to be ivf. And I can sort of make sense of how birth control and abortion are connected. The IVF part doesn't make sense to me as much. Can you help?
- [36:43]
Jessica Valenti
Yeah, for sure. So I mean, and really the only way it starts to make sense to people I think is when you understand that this was never really about abortion and it's not really about the connection to abortion as much as it is about control over women's bodies in particular and this desperation to reinforce traditional gender roles. And of course the people who are dictating anti abortion policy. You're talking about a very small group of people, small powerful group of people that are very religious, right? Life begins at conception, people.
- [37:19]
Tracy Thomas
And for them, is it very religious or is it specifically Christian?
- [37:23]
Jessica Valenti
Oh, it's yeah, it's evangelical Christian. Excuse me.
- [37:26]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, but it's not like it's not like really religious Jewish people or really religious people. It's really just really religious Christians.
- [37:32]
Jessica Valenti
Yeah, it is, it is really religious Christians. Very powerful, very well moneyed Christians who believe that we need to have a nation of Christians, right? Like it is like there is, there are all of these connections to, you know, white nationalism, like the, the birth rate, like white birth rate fears, like.
- [37:55]
Tracy Thomas
The replacement theory or whatever placement theory.
- [37:57]
Jessica Valenti
It's all connected. But with ivf, what they really, I mean they won't say this but they object to the whole thing. They object to like they think it's playing God. They, they don't like any of it. The way that they connect it to abortion and what they'll say is that they don't want embryos to be destroyed. Now, in ivf, you are creating lots and lots of embryos because you don't know what's going to take. You don't know what is going to have a chromosomal abnormality. And so there will be a lot of embryos discarded in the IVF process. They really don't want that to happen. But they also know that IVF is incredibly popular. And so what they've sort of done now is say, oh, no, no, no, no, we're pro ivf. We're pro family. We just want to use health and safety standards. That's sort of the new language they're using. We just want to have health and safety standards. What that actually means is they want to track the number of embryos. They want to stop people from discarding embryos. They want to take ownership of those embryos. Like, it's really, really chilling stuff. And so for them, IVF is absolutely part of it. And as you said with birth control, this is not like some future attack. This is already happening. Like, they have spent the last decade legally redefining certain kinds of birth control as abortion. Right. Like, they say that emergency Contraception is abortion. IUDs are abortions. And so when. And that's really beneficial to Republican politicians because they can say, no, I'm not banning birth control. I'm just banning abortion. Hint, hint, like, like, you know, it's like the wink, wink, nudge, nudge thing where because they're defining IUDs and emergency contraception as abortion, they can sort of cross their fingers behind their back and say, I'm just banning abortion.
- [39:47]
Tracy Thomas
Okay, follow up question to this on the, like, white national side of this in your book. In almost everything I've read about abortion, what I've read is that this all just, these bans disproportionately affect black and brown women. So why do white nationalists want to ban abortion if these are the babies that are being born? Right. Like, that part doesn't make sense to me because white women are wealthy. White women are easiest to get abortions even when they're banned. Poor white women still kind of come in a little bit ahead of black and brown women and poor women of color. So I'm just trying to figure out, like, you're just going to end up with more babies to replace you or whatever your whole, like, bullshit is.
- [40:37]
Jessica Valenti
Yeah. So it's two things. One is the criminalization piece. Right.
- [40:41]
Tracy Thomas
Okay. We, we love to criminalize, of course.
- [40:43]
Jessica Valenti
Guess who gets guess who gets arrested when it comes to abortion, miscarriage, stillbirth. And of course, like, that's what we're seeing. Like they are too smart to arrest someone for breaking an abortion ban. They are arresting people for, you know, Brittany Watson, Ohio, arrested for abuse of a corpse for flushing her miscarriage. Disgusting. Yeah. You know, arresting a woman in South Carolina for her pregnancy ending and she didn't like, behave correctly and so now she's arrested for murder. And you, you are talking about overwhelmingly low income women, black women in particular, like women of color, but black women in particular that they are going after. And so it is very much about arresting people. Like, that's right.
- [41:25]
Tracy Thomas
The punishment part.
- [41:26]
Jessica Valenti
It's the punishment part. And then the other thing that they have going on is this pipeline to Christian evangelical adoption agencies. Right? Yeah, it's about taking those babies. And I sound like such a conspiracy.
- [41:40]
Tracy Thomas
Theorist when I say that, but I, I'm with you. I'm following.
- [41:43]
Jessica Valenti
It really, really is true. So you have like, and the New York Times actually did like a really terrific piece on maternity homes, right? Like, their next big thing is they're taking all this money for crisis pregnancy centers for what they're saying is like, women and families, and they're putting it into like these old school maternity homes where you are, are targeting vulnerable people who have no other place to go, who don't have homes, who are maybe young, who maybe have substance abuse problems. You say, no worries, we have a place to stay for you. But by the way, you're going to need to hand in your phone because we lock up the phones at night just to be safe. And also we're going to put a tracking app on your phone. And also you can't have visitors. And also you need to go to church. And if you want baby clothes or diapers, you're going to need to earn that by going to Bible study. I mean, it's just so twisted. And all of those maternity homes have existing relationships with evangelical adoption agencies. And so they can pressure those women to giving up those, those babies, sometimes using criminal criminalization as a way to intervene to get those babies, put them in good Christian homes. And then all of a sudden you have, you know, it's. Again, sometimes I feel like I sound crazy when I'm saying this, but it actually really, that is what's happening. Like, it literally is what's happening.
- [43:00]
Tracy Thomas
Okay, this leads me to such an important question, which is how the are you? Do you stay sane doing this? Like, how do you do this every day? Read these stories and write about this and, like, don't you want to just, like, drink a margarita at a beach and, like, sleep?
- [43:18]
Jessica Valenti
I do. Sleep is like, my number one dream. You know, people ask me this question a lot, and it's like, I'm not doing well. Like, I don't think anyone who does this work is doing terrific. Right. Like, it's really hard. It really sucks. But I sort of feel like the alternative would be worse. I cannot imagine, like, knowing what I know and having, like, the skills that I do and not doing something. I feel like this is absolutely, like, what is required in this moment. And so you. You do it. The thing that does make it a lot easier, though, is the community. Like, there is this incredible community of people who care about this issue, who are working on this issue every day, people who want to help, people who want to do something. And so it does make you feel not alone in that, you know, bad mental health space. I do try to remember, though, and I think it's important for anyone who cares about this issue to remember that this is a marathon and not a sprint, right? Like, this is not going to be something that is changed in November, no matter what happens. It's not something that's going to be changed in the next couple of years. It's going to take years. It's going to take a long time to set this right. And, you know, whatever we can do to take care of ourselves in the meantime so that we have the, you know, that longevity and the. The ability to keep going is incredibly important.
- [44:40]
Tracy Thomas
And are there any things that you do, like, just to kind of help yourself? Like, because, you know, it is a marathon and not a sprint. Like, any tips or tools that you use, like, like hot chocolate or long runs or getting your nails done or, like, are there any of those kind of things that help you?
- [44:58]
Jessica Valenti
Yeah, I mean, the thing I'm trying to. My sort of commitment to myself lately is to just do one normal person thing a day, right? Like, I just need to do one normal thing a day. Like, cook dinner. I. I love to cook. I haven't been cooking a lot lately because of everything. You know, let me cook dinner, let me go out and get breakfast with. With my daughter. Like, just if I can have one thing that feels like real and tangible and, like, good and part of my life every day, then I can. Then I can do it.
- [45:30]
Tracy Thomas
Okay. I like that. I wrote a note when I was reading the book, and now I can't. I can't remember what page I was. What page sparked this But I wrote, are you hopeful? But then by the end of the book, I was like, I don't know why I wrote that question down, because I don't know that I felt like the book was particularly hopeful by the end. And so I guess my question is, there is this version of November 5, 2024, where Kamala Harris is elected. The Democrats win all the houses in the House and the Senate, and it's a super majority. On January 21, they sign a law that says abortion legal till viability at 24 weeks. Let's say. I don't even know what viability is anymore. It's probably closer.
- [46:21]
Jessica Valenti
It's not a real.
- [46:21]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, it's not like it's not a real thing anyways. Whatever. Approximately. Is it fixed?
- [46:29]
Jessica Valenti
No, not if there's not a restriction. Yeah. To me, Roe was never enough. People were getting denied care under Roe. Right. And we.
- [46:39]
Tracy Thomas
Right.
- [46:40]
Jessica Valenti
And we've seen this in the horror stories that have come out after Roe was overturned, like the people who have been impacted. I don't want to say the most, but the horror stories that we are hearing are generally from people who are later on in their pregnancies, who needed care later in their pregnancies. That is when things tend to go wrong.
- [46:58]
Tracy Thomas
How late in the pregnancies is this that you're talking about?
- [47:01]
Jessica Valenti
Approximately that the horror stories we've heard.
- [47:04]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, yeah.
- [47:05]
Jessica Valenti
Anywhere from 20 plus weeks. Right. It could. I mean, but it can be anytime. But it gets back to something that I was saying earlier where, like, this is about freedom, bodily integrity, bodily autonomy. You don't stop being a person when you're 24 weeks pregnant. Right. Like, you don't stop being like an ethical, moral, constitutional, legal person when you are 24 weeks pregnant. And if we have a law that says that, that is very concerning to me, especially because viability is not a real medical standard.
- [47:39]
Tracy Thomas
Right, Right.
- [47:40]
Jessica Valenti
And because if you want to talk about, like, what voters want, 81% of Americans don't want government interference or regulation of abortion at all. Like, zero.
- [47:49]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [47:50]
Jessica Valenti
Right. And so to me, the only, the only way this is done is if there is zero government intrusion into pregnancy and abortion that there are no, no one is looking. No one's investigating your stillbirth. No one's investigating your miscarriage. No one's saying, are you sick enough at 24 or 25 weeks or 30 weeks or 35 weeks to get the care that you need? That this is never something that you have to worry about a politician being involved in, that. We trust people who are pregnant to make the best decisions for themselves. That we trust the doctors that they're working with, to advise them and to help them. Like that is when this is done to me.
- [48:31]
Tracy Thomas
Okay, okay. And another talking point that we, that I've heard is like Kamala Harris would allow abortion at, at nine months or whatever. Is that a thing?
- [48:43]
Jessica Valenti
No, I mean, no, it's not.
- [48:45]
Tracy Thomas
Right, like what is the latest that people get an abortion? Because at a certain point the child is, it does become like a, like you can have a baby at 30 weeks, like, like spontaneously. So like what, what is.
- [48:58]
Jessica Valenti
Yeah, you're talking about delivery at that point, right? Like you're talking about delivery. I mean, I always like to preface this by saying, like, by trying to make people understand like what it means to get a third trimester abortion. To get a third trimester abortion. There are, I think there's under five clinics in the whole country that do that.
- [49:16]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [49:16]
Jessica Valenti
You are talking about a multi day, painful, invasive, very difficult procedure. You were talking about something that can cost 10,000, $20,000. Right?
- [49:27]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [49:27]
Jessica Valenti
Insurance is largely not covering this. This is not something that someone opts into because they just decided they didn't want to be pregnant. Like when you were getting an abortion at that stage, when you were going through this sort of thing, traveling to another state, getting a multi day procedure, spending, you know, all of this money, it is because something has, has gone terribly, terribly wrong. And then of course, for people where there's no tragic circumstance, they are there because of the hurdles that Republicans put in place. They are there because they wanted to get care earlier, but there was a waiting period or they couldn't afford it because of the Hyde amendment. You know, like.
- [50:08]
Tracy Thomas
Right, It's.
- [50:09]
Jessica Valenti
So there's all of these hurdles and deliberate hurdles that Republicans have put in place that create the need for abortions later in pregnancy. And then the other thing that I hate to talk about because it's horrible but it's true, is that the proportion, like the demographic that is most likely to have abortions after 24 weeks are children under 14. And so you're talking about baby. Like to me that's a baby. Right. Because my kid's 14. You were talking about like kids who are disproportionately victims of sexual violence, who are more likely to not know anything about their bodies, who don't. Don't have the ability, they don't have a credit card, they don't have their own health insurance, they don't have the ability to go get care. Right. So that, and that is part of the reason I say there cannot be any government interference. Because if there's no government interference and people can just make these decisions, then you don't have some 13 year old girl, you know, who doesn't know anything about her body, who all of a sudden figure figures out she's pregnant at 25 weeks and then needs to travel like, you know, halfway across the country. It's. It's just absurd.
- [51:22]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. I want people to read the book and I want, I want them to pay a special attention to the chapter about children being the canaries in the coal mine. I thought that that chapter was just like you talked about the beginning, like hoping that you reach someone. And it's like changes the way they're thinking about that was it for me, just like thinking about what are we doing to these kids, these poor kids who like just are being pawns in this whole thing. So I don't want to give too much away about it, but get the book. If you only read one chapter, which read the whole book, it's very short. But if you only read one, read that one and then come talk to me about it because I want to talk to people about it. Is there anything. I know you say this at the very beginning. You could write like 10 books on this, but is there any one thing that's not in the book that you wish could have been?
- [52:05]
Jessica Valenti
Ooh, I. Yeah, I think that I would have loved to have more on crisis pregnancy centers and maternity homes and that and that and that connection to the, the evangelical movement. There is so much there. There's like, there's so much there. There. There's so many connections. There's so much like back door secret politicking that's happening. I, I would love to write like a whole separate book. Book on that.
- [52:32]
Tracy Thomas
I would read it. I would read it.
- [52:33]
Jessica Valenti
Excellent.
- [52:34]
Tracy Thomas
I want to talk about your process quickly. You write this abortion every day substack. So you are writing all the time, but you also wrote this book. Do you. Does it differ how you approach writing the book versus how you write the substack? Like where you are, what kind of music, if you have any snacks and beverages, rituals. Like, how do you differentiate these kind of two different projects?
- [52:56]
Jessica Valenti
It is very much the same in terms of like where I am, like what I'm doing. I will say I'm a very like unhealthy writer. Like I am not like a wake up in the morning and write my 500 words kind of bitch. Like, that's not me. I am like have my Diet Coke in one hand and literally a bag of mini marshmallows in the other.
- [53:17]
Tracy Thomas
Yes. I love this. For us.
- [53:19]
Jessica Valenti
It's the only, it's the only way.
- [53:22]
Tracy Thomas
What kind of Diet Coke is it? A can, A regular can is glass bottle. Okay. That's fancy as fudge, Jessica.
- [53:33]
Jessica Valenti
My bodega has them. Wait, the bodega for my house has them. And to me you can't go back once you have the glass bottle. So like that to me is elite. That's perfect. Anything to like make me feel comfortable and like relatively okay in that. Okay in that moment. But you know, I live in a small Brooklyn apartment, my husband works from home, I have a 14 year old kid. And so I am really like on the couch like with a laptop stand, just doing what I have to do. It's not pretty, but it works.
- [54:09]
Tracy Thomas
Okay. And that's where you write everything. Book and substack.
- [54:13]
Jessica Valenti
Book and substack. There was for the book. I did take a little bit of time to go upstate to upstate New York work and I stayed in my parents house so that I could like get a little bit of distance and space. I took a few weeks at the end to, to be able to do that because I did need a little bit, a little bit more. But the work of the newsletter is so similar to the work of the book and you know, I wouldn't have been able to do the book without the newsletter and it informed it incredibly. So. But for the book, I was trying to, to figure out how to capture this particular moment in time. Right. Like the thing about the newsletter is it's ephemeral. Like you have it in your inbox and then it's out. And so I just wanted to write something that was really like, okay, this is the compilation. This is exactly what's happening. This is the most important stuff for you to know. And obviously because things are changing so quickly when it comes to abortion rights in the news, I tried to be as clear as I could that like this case that I write about, like may be different by the time you pick up this book. But I, I tried to pick stories and cases that told that bigger, broader strategy story and that and that would be evergreen and stand the test of time a little bit better.
- [55:28]
Tracy Thomas
Is that hard for you though, even knowing just because you do a newsletter which like you can update, hey, last week I said this, now it's this. But like with a book it's like maybe you have another addition. But like, do you have, did you have like, stress about it.
- [55:42]
Jessica Valenti
It was brutal. When I had to. When I recorded the audiobook, and, you know, it's too late now. Like, it's all. It's all in. And seeing like, oh, fuck. Like, that changed or like, I wish I would have written this that way. There was. There was something that happened that would be perfect in that chapter. That is hard. That. That is absolutely, really, really, really challenging. But I'm just trying to, like, file it away and. And keep it for next time. But, like, there is. There just isn't. The newsletter is so great in. In so many ways, but there isn't anything like a book. Like, it is so important to have this, you know, like, oftentimes physical piece of history. It is. It just. I can see that it makes a difference in. In terms of the way that people talk about this issue and the way that they share with the people in their lives. And that, to me, is everything.
- [56:38]
Tracy Thomas
And also, like, as a person who reads newsletters and also unfortunately writes one, I skim a newsletter. I read a newsletter really different than I read a book. Like, if I read a book, I'm reading a book. If I read a newsletter, I'm reading, like, some paragraphs. I'm jumping and trying to find it. Maybe I'm even doing a control fine particular thing. So I do feel like there's like a seriousness to a book that I'm gonna consider the work in a different way. Yeah. Are there any word or is there a word that you can never spell correctly on the first try?
- [57:10]
Jessica Valenti
Oh, my God. There's probably. There's probably a few. It's not constitutional. There was one recently that I absolutely couldn't get it. Now I'm forgetting. There's a lot. I have a lot of, like, a lot of. There's like a lot of legal work.
- [57:26]
Tracy Thomas
Okay.
- [57:27]
Jessica Valenti
That'll come up that I'm like, oh, wait, it'll. It'll always have to do a little auto correct for me. Thank God for. For autocorrect.
- [57:36]
Tracy Thomas
I'm getting better so bad that my autocorrect is just like, this is just wrong. And I don't have a. I don't have a helpful word for you. I just have a red line. Like, that's it. Try again.
- [57:47]
Jessica Valenti
Like, what is that? What are you saying?
- [57:52]
Tracy Thomas
I feel like I'm like, in a fight with my spell check because I just will put like, multiple letters and then they'll give me a red line and I'll be like, okay, we'll fix it. And then they're like, sorry. They're like, we quit. That's hilarious. Let's talk a little bit about some books that are in conversation with your book. I know that you've given us this, like, great bibliography and like, resources, but if you could just shout out a few books that you think are particularly helpful. I know in the book you talk about the Turn Away study, which is like the next thing I want to read. That's like the next book about abortion on my personal reading list.
- [58:27]
Jessica Valenti
I.
- [58:28]
Tracy Thomas
It's been on my list for a long time. But then when you said it in your book, I was like, okay, just go get it. But what else would you maybe suggest to folks?
- [58:36]
Jessica Valenti
So there's a new book, actually that came out the same exact day that my book did called Liberating Abortion by Renee Bracey Sherman. That is excellent. Amazing. It focuses sort of like on the history of abortion rights and reproductive justice and the black women who built that movement. And like, where it is now. It's really, like, I can't recommend it enough. It's great. There's also a book called A Handbook for Post Roe America. I think it might be called the New Handbook for Post Roe America right now by a woman named Robin Marty who works at a reproductive healthcare clinic in Alabama. That is like a super useful tool to have. That I think is great. Killing the Black Body by Dorothy Roberts is amazing. I think Dorothy Roberts just won a MacArthur.
- [59:25]
Tracy Thomas
She did, she did, yeah.
- [59:26]
Jessica Valenti
Yeah, deservedly so.
- [59:28]
Tracy Thomas
I was shocked she didn't have one. I was like, wait, right?
- [59:31]
Jessica Valenti
Like, really?
- [59:32]
Tracy Thomas
I was like, maybe it's a different Dorothy Roberts. And then I clicked and I was like, nope, that's the same one.
- [59:38]
Jessica Valenti
Yeah. No, there's so many, many great ones. You know, Mary Zeigler is someone I read like. She's a law professor who's really great. Like, I feel like what I like about abortion rights, what I like reading about abortion rights, is that you can go like full activist. You can like read like the activists on the ground. You can read sort of like the denser, you know, legal theory stuff. And it's all important. The turn away study, you know, read about people's lived realities. Like what this actually means. It's all important. It all makes a difference.
- [60:13]
Tracy Thomas
Last question for you. If you could have one person dead or alive read this book, who would you want it to be?
- [60:20]
Jessica Valenti
Oh, my God. That's really interesting. Maybe my grandma. Maybe my grandma. My grandma is. Is no longer here. She, you know, raised just five kids without money, didn't have choices, didn't have a lot of options, didn't have a lot of choices, had a really challenging life, but was an amazing, strong person. And I would be really. And she died before I was sort of old enough to have these conversations with her. And I would be really curious to know where she stands and what she thinks and like what she would think about what's happening now.
- [61:04]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, it's a great answer. All right, everybody at home. You can get abortion wherever you get your books. It is out in the world. I listened to the audiobook. You did a really fantastic job.
- [61:16]
Jessica Valenti
Oh, thanks.
- [61:17]
Tracy Thomas
I really liked it and so I can give it a stamp of approval for folks. Be sure to get your book read it. It is you have time to arm yourselves to have these conversations before the election, but also as Jessica mentioned, and it's going to be happening on November 6th and 7th and 8th and hopefully not too much longer after. But you know what? I have a sense we're going to be doing this. Your newsletter is going to have a future. I. I think so get your copy. And Jessica, thank you so much for doing this. Thank you for coming on the show.
- [61:48]
Jessica Valenti
My gosh, thank you for having me and everyone else.
- [61:51]
Tracy Thomas
We will see you in the Stacks. All right, y'all, that does it for us today. Thank you so much for listening and thank you to my amazing guest Jessica Valenti. I'd also like to say a huge thank you to Anahita Padmataban and Stacey Stein for helping to make this conversation possible. Don't forget the Stacks Book Club pick for October is the Nickel Boys by Colson Whitehead, and we will be discussing that book on Wednesday, October 30th with Franklin Leonard. If you love this podcast and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com thestacks and join the Stacks Pack and check out my substack@tracy thomas.substack.com make sure you're subscribed to the Stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts. And if you're listening through Apple Podcasts or Spotify, be sure to leave us a rating and a review. For more from the Stacks, follow us on social media, Hestacks Pod on Instagram Threads and TikTok and Hestax Pod on Underscore on Twitter and you can check out our website@thestaxpodcast.com this episode of the Stacks was edited by Christian D. With production assistance from Megan Caballero. Our graphic Designer is Robin McRite and our theme music is from Tagirajis. The Stax is created and produced by me, Tracy Thomas.