Ep. 344 Unstable Attachment to Realism with Justine Kay

Summary

Episode Summary: Ep. 344 "Unstable Attachment to Realism" with Justine Kay

Release Date: November 6, 2024

Introduction

In Episode 344 of The Stacks, host Tracy Thomas welcomes Justine K., the co-host of the popular podcast Two Black Girls, One Rose. Tracy and Justine engage in a heartfelt and insightful conversation that navigates the turbulent emotions following the 2024 election, the balance between optimism and pessimism, the chaos of reality TV, and their shared passion for books.

Post-Election Emotions

Recording on October 28th, Tracy and Justine delve into their feelings in the aftermath of the 2024 election. Tracy expresses her anxiety about how listeners will perceive the episode once the election results come in. She shares a personal anecdote about interacting with her niece and nephews, highlighting the confusion and misinformation young listeners might have about the political landscape.

[08:12] Tracy Thomas: "I just couldn't do anymore. But what you want is to keep going because you want to see what happened in the end."

Justine mirrors Tracy's apprehensions, discussing her struggle with pessimism and an "unstable attachment to realism." She opens up about her difficulties in celebrating personal achievements amidst the looming uncertainty of political outcomes.

[11:17] Justine K.: "Very, very, like, unstable attachment to realism."

Balancing Optimism and Pessimism

The conversation shifts to the concept of optimism versus pessimism. Tracy advocates for leaning into optimism, even if it sometimes leads to being wrong, to maintain a hopeful outlook. Justine resonates with this sentiment, sharing her therapist's insights on her own pessimistic tendencies and her efforts to cultivate a more optimistic mindset.

[12:32] Tracy Thomas: "I would rather be wrong and have a nice time believing in something good being possible..."

Reality TV Chaos

Transitioning from politics to pop culture, Tracy and Justine discuss their takes on reality TV shows like Love is Blind and The Bachelor. Justine highlights Love is Blind as her favorite to cover, appreciating its unique format and dynamics. They critique certain seasons of The Bachelor, particularly condemning problematic behavior and lack of diversity.

[21:45] Justine K.: "Absolutely. Love is Blind."

Tracy shares her disdain for the predictable outcomes of wedding episodes in reality TV, yearning for more genuine and spontaneous moments.

[24:33] Tracy Thomas: "Breaking up with Shake at the altar. That was so fabulous."

Book Recommendations and "Ask the Stacks" Segment

In the Ask the Stacks segment, Tracy responds to a listener's request for book recommendations for a mother-in-law with advanced Parkinson's. She offers a mix of fiction and non-fiction titles tailored to Martha's interests in historical fiction and family sagas.

[38:36] Tracy Thomas: "Thank you so much for being here."

Justine adds her favorite historical non-fiction recommendation, emphasizing the importance of understanding history to foster optimism and reduce anger.

[38:37] Justine K.: "Once Upon a Secret by Mimi Alford."

Personal Reading Preferences

Tracy and Justine delve into their personal reading habits, discussing favorite genres, books that made them laugh or cry, and books they dislike. Justine candidly shares her frustrations with certain romance novels and her admiration for cookbooks, highlighting how different genres serve as emotional outlets.

[40:27] Justine K.: "I did not. Usually when I'm right, it feels great... This one did not."

They also discuss the impact of influential books like Thick by Tracy, which has shaped Justine's perspective on race and politics.

[46:07] Justine K.: "I was like, thick by trustee McMillan got him."

Closing Remarks and Book Club Pick

As the episode wraps up, Tracy announces the November Book Club pick: Luster by Raven Leilani. She encourages listeners to join the upcoming discussion with Justine on November 27th and provides a discount code to support a black queer women-owned bookstore.

[54:59] Justine K.: "White Rage by Dr. Carol Anderson, that's another gem."

Tracy emphasizes the importance of community support through Patreon and invites listeners to engage with The Stacks on various social media platforms.

Conclusion

Episode 344 of The Stacks offers a rich tapestry of personal anecdotes, cultural critiques, and literary recommendations. Tracy and Justine's candid dialogue provides listeners with a nuanced exploration of navigating post-election emotions, the complexities of reality TV, and the transformative power of books.

---

Notable Quotes:

• [11:17] Justine K.: "Very, very, like, unstable attachment to realism."
• [21:45] Justine K.: "Absolutely. Love is Blind."
• [40:27] Justine K.: "I did not. Usually when I'm right, it feels great... This one did not."
• [54:59] Justine K.: "White Rage by Dr. Carol Anderson, that's another gem."

Transcript

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay, y'all, it's the holiday season, which likely means you've got a lot on your plate. And I have something that can help you make your life a little easier. And it isn't what you're thinking. It is Miracle Made Sheets. How can she help in this crazy time of life, you might ask? Well, let me count the ways. One, they have thermoregulating technology inspired by NASA that helps you to stay cool and comfortable all night long. That means better sleep. Two, the silver infused fabrics prevent up to 99.7% of bacterial growth, leaving them to stay cleaner and fresher. Three times longer. That means you're doing less chores, changing and washing your sheets. Three, less bacteria. That also means clearer, cleaner skin, less acne. And four, these sheets make an incredible gift. You're giving the luxury hotel sheet experience without the luxury price tag. So now Miracle Made has helped you have more sleep, less laundry, cleaner skin and checked off a gift to give to that difficult person on your list. Go to try miracle.com the stacks to try Miracle Made sheets today and whether you're buying them for yourself or as a gift for a loved one, if you order today, you can save over 40%. And if you use our promo code the Stacks at checkout, you'll get three free towels and save an extra 20%. Miracle is so confident in their product, it is backed by a 30 day money back guarantee. So if you aren't 100 satisfied, you'll get a full refund. Upgrade your sleep with Miracle Made, go to try miracle.com the stacks and use the code the stacks to claim your free three piece towel set and save over 40% off. Again, that's try miracle.com the stacks to treat yourself. Thank you Miracle Made for sponsoring this episode. Welcome to the Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host Tracy Thomas and today I am thrilled to welcome Justine K to the show. Justine is my pal, but more than that, she is the co host of the very popular podcast two Black Girls one Rose where she and her co host Natasha share hilarious and unfiltered takes on reality TV culture and relationships. I invited Justine on today not only because she is brilliant, but because I wanted to talk to the right person. That day after the 2024 election, Justine and I talk a little bit about our state of mind going into the election, the power and possibility of optimism. And we also, of course, talk about the chaos of reality TV and some of the books that Justine loves. In case you missed the announcement, our book Club pick for November is Luster by Raven Leilani. Justine will be back on Wednesday, November 27th to discuss the book with me, so be sure to read along and tune in. Quick reminder, everything we talk about on each episode of the Stacks can be found in the link in the show notes. If you love this podcast and you want inside access to it, head over to patreon.com thestacks and join the stacks pack. For just $5 a month, you get to be part of the best bookish community. You get to be in our discord. You get to come to our monthly virtual book club meetups. You get a bonus episode every month, and you get to know that by joining, you make it possible for me to make this show every single, single week. Also, as we come to the end of the year, we have some really exciting Patreon exclusive things like our Mega Challenge and Stacky Awards that are both coming your way. Another fun perk of the Stacks Pack is that you get a shout out on this very show. So shout out to our newest members, Sonia, Chrissy, Teresa, Debbie, Mitchell and Sarah. Thank you all so much. And for those of you who love the show, still want to support it, but maybe don't want to be part of a bookish community and have to go to virtual book club meetups, I've got something for you. It's my newsletter. It's called Unstacked and you can find it at Tracy Thomas substack.com It'll keep you up to date on what I've got going on, my hot takes on books and pop culture. And it goes directly to your inbox. So subscribe to that by going to Tracy Thomas substack.com All right, now it is time for my conversation with Justine K. All right, everybody, welcome to the Stacks. It is the day after the 2024 election and we have no idea what's going on because we're recording this on October 28th. Monday, October 28th, I brought to you a guest that I wanted to talk to on the day after the election because I wanted to bring someone that I felt like no matter what happened last night or maybe is still happening right now, we can have a good time. We can, we can just vibe out and maybe for the next hour, not feel the stress and anxiety of whatever the fuck is going on in this moment. So I brought you one of my favorite podcasters, one of my favorite people, just in general, my friend, one of the co hosts of the 2 Black Girls 1 Rose podcast, the incomparable Justine K. Justine welcome to the sex.

[Justine K]

Oh, my God. Thanks, Tracy. I'm so happy to be here. You guys talk about smart things over here?

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, no, I'm excited. No, we talk about the same dumb shit as everybody else. We just pretend we're smart because it's books. It's like, you talk about reality tv, so it's hard. You have to, like, people, like, assume it's like low, low brow. I feel like you guys are pretty highbrow for reality tv.

[Justine K]

Oh, thanks. We try. We try. But we also try to have, like, a lot of fun because how could you not?

[Tracy Thomas]

Because it's reality tv. I mean, I feel like we try to have a lot of fun here with books. And I can tell you that a lot of people cannot have fun around books.

[Justine K]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

I feel like I'm trying to be as low brow as humanly possible in the book space. Okay, first, so before we dive in for people who don't know you, can you give them just like a little. A little backstory? Where are you from? How did you get to where you are currently? Yeah, give us a little. Sure.

[Justine K]

So I. Yeah. I'm Justine. I am the co host of two Black Girls, One Rose. I co host it with my best friend Natasha. We have been doing it for Coming up on set seven years this December. And we started the podcast because we watched Rachel Lindsay season of the Bachelorette, and we just didn't hear any of the other podcasters watching the sh. The same show we were watching. It was really wild to listen to these white people recap podcasts and nothing happened. They just picked up on no signs and none of the nuances that we picked up on either. And then also, it didn't really sound like any of them were, like, friends. They really all gave co worker and. But pretending to be friends. Right. In which a lot of duos have that same energy, but we don't have that. We are actually friends.

[Tracy Thomas]

You guys went to high school together?

[Justine K]

We did high school together. We've known each other. We're coming up on now 20 years, and I was just telling her this weekend when I saw her. She is my life partner in a way that's so unique. Not a whole lot of people get a life partner like this.

[Tracy Thomas]

Mm.

[Justine K]

So it's exciting. It's nice. It's really nice.

[Tracy Thomas]

I'm so jealous of you guys. I do this by myself. You guys have another. I mean, there's definitely parts about being a solo podcaster that I love and I think work to my strengths as a control freak. And, okay, terrible delegator. But sometimes, like, I just want to bounce an idea off of someone who's as invested in the thing as I am.

[Justine K]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

You know, like, I come to you with things. I'll sometimes like, justine, what do you think of this? But. And, like, you are great. A great friend. And you. And you help, but also, like, it's not the same. This isn't your thing.

[Justine K]

Right, Right. Right. Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay. Let's talk to our future selves.

[Justine K]

Oh. Okay.

[Tracy Thomas]

So Today is Monday, October 28th. It is, like, eight days until the election. Nine days till everyone is going to be hearing us talk right now.

[Justine K]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

What do we think? What are you feeling?

[Justine K]

Oh, my God. I am trying so hard to not think about it because I don't want to be pessimistic. Right.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay.

[Justine K]

I also am fully expecting an insurrection.

[Tracy Thomas]

Either way.

[Justine K]

Either way.

[Tracy Thomas]

No matter what.

[Justine K]

Yeah. Yeah. Huh. So it doesn't feel like this day, the November 6 day, is nearly as final as it usually has been my whole life growing up with elections.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, that's true. That's true.

[Justine K]

Right.

[Tracy Thomas]

I. I am like. I just. I can't stop thinking about everyone listening to this episode first thing or at some point, you know, in the first few days, I just. It's been on. This episode has been heavy on my mind, I want to say, since August, since I realized when I was, like, booking the show, I was like, oh, shit, this is gonna. Cuz, you know, my episodes drop at midnight California time, so it's like, we're not gonna know. Oh, most people, like, we probably won't know.

[Justine K]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

I mean, I hope we know. I hope everyone listening to this, we're having celebratory mimosas at midnight or whatever. Right. Like, I hope. I guess not mimosas at midnight, but when you'd wake up in the morning and listen episode, I hope that you are toasting to something wonderful.

[Justine K]

But.

[Tracy Thomas]

But I just am. So. So anybody who's, like, at home right now listening to this, who's, like, feeling anxious, I'm. I'm preemptively anxious for us.

[Justine K]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

But also, like, I went knock doors this weekend with my kids.

[Justine K]

I saw. With your kids.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. Yep. I'm a. I'm an avid door knocker. I. I'm a phone caller and a door knocker. It eases the anxiety for me. It does. It does.

[Justine K]

Okay.

[Tracy Thomas]

It really does. Yeah. I mean, you get to talk to people. You get to meet people and be like, hey. I mean, it's. And like, at this late stage in the game, you're only talking to people who support who you support. So it's real easy. But I. I, too, have fears of violence. Okay, let me ask you a little bit about optimism, because one of the things I've noticed In the last eight years, I guess since 2016, since people were surprised by Hillary's loss in 2016, is this urgent to preemptively be pessimistic, like, well, she's gonna lose, or. And in. In this preemptive pessimism, it's sort of like I am saying that the bad thing is gonna happen so that I'm not surprised. And then you live your whole life, like, feeling like, well, I wasn't surprised, but you're, like, living in a downer for everything. And I just feel like I just want to be optimistic. It's going to hurt just as bad whether I'm right or I'm wrong. I would rather be wrong and, like, have a nice time believing in something good being possible than that, like, I was right. I. I was right. I knew it was going to happen. And so I'm not going to, like, believe that anything else is possible. I don't know. Have you. Have you been thinking about this at all?

[Justine K]

So, so deeply? You actually touched on something that my therapist and I have been going really deeply into, which is my pessimistic side. Very, very, like, unstable attachment to realism. I have this attachment to realism not in the ego way of saying that I was right, but in the way of I won't let myself down.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes.

[Justine K]

And I'm doing this because I'm planning a wedding, and I have a really hard time being celebrated. And it's getting.

[Tracy Thomas]

It's. It's just.

[Justine K]

It's getting hard for me every single step of the way. And a lot of really great things are happening for me and Natasha right now. She just bought a house. I'm getting married. So we just have a lot of great stuff. We had a great live show recently, and I still am, like, waiting for this other shoe to drop in a way that I can protect myself.

[Tracy Thomas]

Do you. Can you not enjoy the good things while they're happening to you?

[Justine K]

I have a really hard time with it. Really thinking that I deserve it. I have a really hard time with that.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, yes. I think I deserve nothing that. That I can relate to. I don't. I don't consider myself an optimist really, at all, but I think that I am more optimistic than I think that I am.

[Justine K]

I think so, too.

[Tracy Thomas]

I just really enjoy enjoying things. I Like, to feel good. And so I'm gonna, like, lean into any opportunity to, like, have a nice time.

[Justine K]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

I mean, so I'll say this in 2016, and everyone's gonna be like, everybody says this. I really did know that Donald Trump was gonna win. I was the only person. I. I think that it was like, me and, like, Donald Trump. We were the two people who knew. Because, like, I called my brother that day and I was like, you know, Brady? And he was like, tracy, you're being ridiculous. And I was like, ah. And like, I knew and it still fucking sucked big donkey dick. Okay? Like, it didn't protect me in any way, shape or form from the pain and the suffering of the revelation that I was right. I did not. Usually when I'm right, it feels great. I love, I love and I told you so moment. This one did not. And so this time around, while I'm not sure what will happen and I don't think it's useful to prognosticate at this point, since everyone will know more than we know at this time, I'm just leaning into it. I mean, we got a black girl running for office. And not only a black girl, but in my case, she's mixed. She's from where I'm from, you know, I mean, I don't agree with her on a lot of stuff, but, like, she's out here, she's looking good every day. The face is beat.

[Justine K]

The glam team, I want the interview.

[Tracy Thomas]

So the glam team, I want the hookup. I need. I need some eyeliner sometimes. I need a nice glittery eye. Bright, bright, lifted.

[Justine K]

Yeah, she always does look.

[Tracy Thomas]

She looks great. The monochromatic suits. She is. You know, we talk about representation matters. This is mattering to me.

[Justine K]

Yeah, I agree with you. I think the one question I would have for her if I got a chance to sit down with her is her access to her eternal joy and optimism. Because I've seen this race of black girl running against mid to low white man.

[Tracy Thomas]

Low level white.

[Justine K]

Low level white. And the white is usually just comes out, I thought just because he's relatable, you know, just because he's like, better, you know, Like, I've seen that race so many times, and if I've seen it so many times, I can't imagine how many times she's seen it.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Justine K]

And she still is like, no, I'm gonna win.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Justine K]

Here's beyond. You're welcome.

[Tracy Thomas]

Like, she's maybe because she has one right. She has won her political races. She Is the fucking vice president. Like, I always die when people are like, she's not qualified. I'm like, bitch, what is qualified if not the person who has the literal job as next in line? Like, what other qualifications are there for president besides having been president? I don't know. Vice president, like what? Like what is a qualification at this point? But maybe because she has one. I don't know. I think, like, we're both black women, we both have had to compete against the most mid low level white ever. And like, there is joy for me in the competition. There is joy for me in the going out and being like, I know I look good right now. Like, I know I'm doing this and like, you know, I can only. I can know everything I know about systemic racism. I can know everything I know about like white mediocrity. But at a certain point you just have to go out there and like, do your thing.

[Justine K]

Yeah, that's so true. Your podcast obviously has helped me so much with reading about white supremacy, patriarchy. I just dove into a fat phobia reading list this morning from your post this morning. And knowing the root of all of those secondary feelings that I have, anger, jealousy, pessimism, knowing the root of those is really, really important to my route to optimism, I think.

[Tracy Thomas]

You know what, I actually think you're really right because I think that I've become more optimistic the more I've started reading about like abolition. Whether it's like prison abolition or like environmental justice, like all of these things are all sort of like under this big abolition category. And I think this idea of like, what is possible, what our imaginations can like, lead us toward, is really exciting to me and like, makes me feel hopeful, like that there is a different way that we could be doing this, even if we're not doing the different way like we could be. It exists, it's possible. And I think that helps. I think.

[Justine K]

No, I think so too. I think so.

[Tracy Thomas]

I'll tell you a crazy story. Last night after I knocked doors with my kids, I went to my God sister's house and she's got a 13 year old daughter. And her daughter has these two super cute 13 year old identical twin girls. They're Latina, obviously, we all live in California. And I was talking to my niece and I was like, what do you think of the election? And she's like, I like Kamala. And I was like, well, why? You know, like try to like be like a teacher, like why? And my niece was like, because she's gonna help Women's rights. And I was like, wow, incredible answer. You got it right. Congratulations.

[Justine K]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

So then I turned to the twins, and I'm like, what about you guys? And they're like, you're not gonna like our answer. And I said, what? And he said, we like Trump, okay? And our parents like Trump, Okay? And I was like, okay, well, why? And they were like, the economy. They were like, interest rates were lower. I'm like, you're 13. What do you mean? I'm like, what do you mean, economy? What do you mean, interest rates? So we get into this whole conversation, and, like, they start telling me about, you know, people who get handouts and want to work at McDonald's and how they need to work harder and all this stuff. And I was like, listen. I was like, you guys are 13. You don't know a lot. You haven't even learned about the Supreme Court in government class yet. Like, you don't even know how this works, right? And, like, I certainly didn't. And the fact that knew anything about interest rates at 13, I was like, you guys are going to be fine. I said to them, I said, I. I know you two are smart. I know you're going to be fine. I know that you don't know a lot, and that's okay. I said, I'm not worried about you. But what I really hope that you two will do is start to think about what you would like for yourself and the world and the country that you will one day be in charge of. I was like, me and not my sister. We're old, we're done, we're washed. We're just trying to do the best we can to make sure you guys and our kids are going to be okay. But, like, you guys can shape whatever this thing is. And I was talking about possibility and all of this, and I was like, really, you know, doing my thing, sermonizing to these poor girls. And they were like, yeah, but none of that can happen. It's not like, everybody can just, like, make a million dollars. And I was like, sure, but, like, there are other versions where people have what they need. That doesn't mean that. It's like. I was just like, everything's not about money, right? Like, Right. I was like, maybe you don't need a million dollars if all your health care is taken care of.

[Justine K]

Right?

[Tracy Thomas]

And the one girl was like, well, do you really think that things would be better under Kamala Harris? And I was like, yeah, yeah, I really. I really do. And then she was like, are you a communist?

[Justine K]

No.

[Tracy Thomas]

And I was like, I mean, no, but I'm not, not a communist.

[Justine K]

Oh, my God.

[Tracy Thomas]

I mean, it was just like such a crazy conversation, but it was just a good reminder to me that, like, all of this stuff, all of this, like, politics stuff, it certainly matters, but also, like, if we're not teaching our kids how to dream bigger and, like, visualize a world that they can create and like, have that optimism because they can see something that is better than what they have. Like, that was the part that was scary to me when they were like, well, that none of that can happen. I was like, can. I was like, it can. Things change all the time.

[Justine K]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

Like in our lifetimes.

[Justine K]

Yeah. Right.

[Tracy Thomas]

Like, my dad was born in 1935.

[Justine K]

Wow. Okay.

[Tracy Thomas]

He's not. Obviously he's no longer alive, but he lived till 2012. So he lived from. He. His family Left Jim Crow, L.A. moved to California.

[Justine K]

Yep.

[Tracy Thomas]

He. My dad saw the murder of Emmett Till.

[Justine K]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

He saw voting rights, the Vietnam War. He saw World War II. He saw all of these things. He saw the first black president. Like, that was all within one person's lifetime, right?

[Justine K]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

So I'm just like, I want the kids to believe there's something better.

[Justine K]

I would love for them to feel.

[Tracy Thomas]

Like that we're going to totally transition the people on reality television.

[Justine K]

Oh, man.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay. I want. You guys started doing the Bachelor and the Bachelorette, but now you do Love is Blind.

[Justine K]

Yep.

[Tracy Thomas]

Married at first sight.

[Justine K]

Sometimes.

[Tracy Thomas]

Sometimes. Sometimes housewife stuff.

[Justine K]

Sometimes Housewives. Yeah, definitely.

[Tracy Thomas]

What is the most enjoyable show for you all to cover?

[Justine K]

Absolutely. Love is Blind.

[Tracy Thomas]

And what about the Bachelor? Where does that rank on your.

[Justine K]

So here's the thing with the Bachelor. Now for me, right. As like a grown, about to be 35 year old woman.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, my God, you're so young.

[Justine K]

To me, it's an exercise in improv and comedy. Because at this point, I have to look at it from a comedic lens.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes.

[Justine K]

Because otherwise, if I take it too seriously, I can get too bogged down in it. I can get too worried about stuff and I can do. And that's not fun. And we like to, like, keep it fun over here, you know, God bless the game of roses who are like coaching people. And yes. They have their own language and they.

[Tracy Thomas]

Take it like really, really serious.

[Justine K]

Right. Which is admirable in a way. We don't do that over here. No, I can do that. So it's a really great improv class.

[Tracy Thomas]

Was there a season for you where it went from being like more earnest, taking it Seriously. To it becoming more of like camp comedy for you.

[Justine K]

Oh, my gosh. I think the season, honestly, after Matt James. Because Matt James was the most serious one.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, my God. Yeah. I think that season broke the Bachelor. It did because we had Rachel KKK canal still together. And we had. Remember the season started with that sit down with Matt James and Chris Harrison where he was like, chris, I'm worried. I like white girls. And Chris was like, it's okay, my brother. Yeah. And I was like, this is not. Not the way how we want to start.

[Justine K]

I feel like he looked dead in the camera to my face and was like, I'm not picking no black girl.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Justine K]

So give up that dream now.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. That season, that. That was a hard one.

[Justine K]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

And that had the fallout with Rachel, Lindsay and Chris Harrison. That was just like so dramatic, the whole thing. The most dramatic season ever.

[Justine K]

Ever.

[Tracy Thomas]

And then. Oh, my God. And then we got Emmanuel Acho out of that.

[Justine K]

The worst. The worst of all time.

[Tracy Thomas]

Emotional Butler.

[Justine K]

Emotional Butler out of it. Which is probably the best thing ever. Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes. That's what Van Lathan called him on Van and Rachel's show. I'm gonna. I'm definitely linking to this episode of this fight between them on in the show notes. Because if you have not listened to this conversation, I go back and listen sometimes just. Just for fun. Oh, yeah.

[Justine K]

Once a year.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, it's. It's like a. It's like an annual tradition app, you know, Mar. Carrie says after Halloween, it's time. I say after Thanksgiving, it's time. Let us be thankful to Emmanuel Acho's stupidity. Love is blind is great.

[Justine K]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

Except I hate the weddings.

[Justine K]

Oh, my God, the weddings are boring.

[Tracy Thomas]

It's the worst episode. The show starts off so good and by the time you get to the weddings, they used to actually have the weddings and you didn't know what people were going to say. But now they all break up before the wedding. I'm like, hello? Just do it at the altar, you assholes.

[Justine K]

I know. I know. Because I loved the. The absolute gaggery of like deep, deep. Breaking up with Shake at the altar.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes.

[Justine K]

That was so fabulous.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes, I know.

[Justine K]

Breaking up with what?

[Tracy Thomas]

Cole. My enemy.

[Justine K]

Me. Oh, my God.

[Tracy Thomas]

I hated Cole so much. And people would be like, up in my shit.

[Justine K]

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

Like cold that. I'm like, you guys are blinded by the baby blues. Okay? He's emotional terrorist. He's mean. He's nasty. She was mean too. But he was manipulative.

[Justine K]

Yep.

[Tracy Thomas]

He was up and he was fat, Shaming her all over the place.

[Justine K]

All over the place. Called her a nine out of ten. Called the other girl Colleen a ten out of ten. That was absolutely crazy.

[Tracy Thomas]

That was crazy. Imagine your fiance being like, you're a 9 out of 10 and then actually saying someone else is a 10 out of 10.

[Justine K]

Wearing Ugg boots, wearing leggings, Old Lululemon leggings wearing girl.

[Tracy Thomas]

Like she was a professional ballerina, though.

[Justine K]

She was. Yeah, she was.

[Tracy Thomas]

So props to Colleen for making the dream work, because only, like, seven girls in the history of the world have ever been ballerinas. I know, because I would have liked to be one of those. No, I was never gonna be a ballerina. Okay. You told me to ask you what you read. Pre show.

[Justine K]

Yes.

[Tracy Thomas]

I didn't. What do you pre live show or pre show in general?

[Justine K]

Pre live show and then pre show in general.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay, tell me about it.

[Justine K]

I'll start with the live show. With the live show, I only listen to music with no words. It's really important for me to listen to stuff with no words.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay, what kind of music with no words? Like what?

[Justine K]

I listen to a lot of. Oh, my gosh. I don't know how to pronounce his name. Arturo, the something. He makes a classic Italian, like, classical album. A lot of, like, Miles Davis. A lot of, like, Bill Davis Trio. Like, a lot. Just classic jazz music.

[Tracy Thomas]

Wow.

[Justine K]

Yeah. And then I was reading the message, oh, coats. On the way to the. On the way to the show. And that was important because it was just important for me to, like, see the world bigger.

[Tracy Thomas]

So when you got there to, like, talk about love is blind, were you like, also the role of a journalist, the Palestinian people and book banning in South Carolina?

[Justine K]

Like, I only got the page 19.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay.

[Justine K]

But I was just thinking, because in the first couple of pages, he talks so much about, like, the artistry of storytelling. I just felt really prepared to stand up there and talk about little crazy Love is Blind.

[Tracy Thomas]

You know, I'm sure Ta Nehisi Coates would be so thrilled to know that his book has changed how you approach Love is Blind. I'm sure when he wrote that, he had you when he said comrades, in the book, that's what he had in mind. You doing Love is Blind live show. What about before? Just the regular shows. Do you do, like. Do you have, like, a pre show warm up that you do?

[Justine K]

We do. Well, we have a warm up where we just. Kiki, in the beginning, it's usually like a solid 20 minutes that we're Just sitting there laughing about our weekend. But I have been reading so many romance novels. I know blowing through these romance novels. Thanks to you for starting off this train.

[Tracy Thomas]

Well, everyone listening is going to laugh because they know I don't really read romance. But I have to shout out my friend Jess because she is part of the Stacks pack. She's like the romance girly. I go to Jess anytime I need a romance recommendation for myself or for others. And so Jess, she's at literary intersections on Instagram for folks who are looking for romance recommendations. So she has helped. I can't really take credit. I've just been the sort of conduit between the two of you. Yes.

[Justine K]

But I've been reading those and we've been doing them for our pre show. My, like, review of them because some of them are fantastic. Curvy girl. Summer was, like, amazing. I felt like I jumped into the characters skin and bones. And then some of them are awful.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, yeah.

[Justine K]

Like, so bad.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, yeah.

[Justine K]

One of them most recently that I got the best laugh out of Natasha. I was so happy. It was about Primal Play. Have you heard of this before?

[Tracy Thomas]

No, but I think you talked about this on the show, right?

[Justine K]

Sure did.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Justine K]

It's when people bark like a dog and meow like a cat running around barefoot. And that's like their foreplay. And it goes on for a very long time. There's nicknames. There's, like, all kinds of things. And there was no indication that this, his book was going to be about that.

[Tracy Thomas]

I see. So it was a surprise. Primal Play. Like, if the book had been called, like, Primal Play, you would have been like, okay, even a little.

[Justine K]

A little forward.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Justine K]

A little something like, hey, this is what we're going to be discussing. Nope. Cold.

[Tracy Thomas]

Cold.

[Justine K]

Open.

[Tracy Thomas]

What was the book about?

[Justine K]

Oh, my God, it was so many storylines.

[Tracy Thomas]

It was.

[Justine K]

It called A Turn in the Air.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay.

[Justine K]

Because it was also about dance.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay. We love it. We love a jete in the air. My God.

[Justine K]

Oh, they said it so many times. So it was about this Jamaican ballet dancer.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay.

[Justine K]

Who needed immigration.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay.

[Justine K]

To so needed, like, papers to stay in the US because his brother was in jail. Drug dealer. Right.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay. Okay. Wow. So overwhelmed. Okay.

[Justine K]

So while he's staying there, obviously he makes friends with the local dance studio. So they're like quadruple friends. Right. And then the girl who he marries is also a young lady who designs video games in her spare time from designing the video games, she gets women out of domestic violence situations.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, my gosh. So she's a creative and an activist.

[Justine K]

Yeah. Yep, Yep.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay.

[Justine K]

Someone starts stalking her from one of the domestic violence situations, and it just happens to be that one of the husband's brother's friends is the owner of a sex club that the owner of the dance studio also goes to.

[Tracy Thomas]

Wow.

[Justine K]

We have a whole all these storylines. All these are separate storylines going on. This book was only 234 pages.

[Tracy Thomas]

Wow. That author had all of that up in the air. Just up there. Wow. Incredible. Okay, we're gonna take a quick break, then we're come back and talk a lot more about books. Running a business means wearing a lot of hats, but Shopify helps you focus on what really matters. Selling your product and growing your brand. Whether you're starting a small side hustle or scaling up, Shopify makes it easy to manage everything in one place. It's the platform I use for all of the Stacks merch, and it has turned what could have been a total logistical nightmare into something that is seamless, runs smoothly and I basically never think about. What I love most about Shopify is how intuitive it is. Analytics, payments, inventory, marketing. It's all ready to go and it's all in one place. And with tools like Shop Pay, which boosts conversions by up to 50%, Shopify ensures every sale counts. It's like having an extra set of hands to handle the details so you can stay focused on creating and connecting with your customers. Upgrade your business and get the same checkout we use with Shopify. Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.com the stacks all lowercase go to shopify.com the stacks to upgrade your selling today. Shopify.com the stacks hey y'all. I wanted to take a little more time to tell you about what's going on on the Stacks Pack Patreon this is the time of year that I encourage folks to join because there are some awesome, awesome perks. First and foremost, you get everything. You get all year long bonus episodes, access to the Discord community, which is alive and well. You get to join our monthly virtual book clubs where we talk about whatever our book club pick has been for the previous month. Plus there's some other seasonal perks you have access to if you join. Now we have a reading tracker that goes out in December and you can only access it from December to January, so you must sign up now so that you get it when it drops. We also have the Stackies, which are the Stacks Pack exclusive literary awards. Only members of the Stacks Pack and subscribers to the newsletter can vote on which books are the best books of the year. And lastly, we have a mega challenge that is A list of 52 reading prompts to shake up your reading life and that is exclusive to the Stacks Pack. So if you love this podcast, if you want to support the work that I do, if you want to make it possible for me to continue doing this work, go to patreon.com the stacks and join the Stacks Pack. And now you're able to gift a subscription to the Stacks Pack to the other readers in your Life. Head to patreon.com the stacks. Find all the information there and I really hope that you'll become part of this amazing community after investing billions to light up our network. T Mobile is America's largest 5G network. Plus right now you can switch keep your phone and we'll pay it off up to $800 dollars. See how you can save on every plan versus Verizon and at t. @t mobile.com keepandswitch up to four lines via virtual prepaid card.

[Justine K]

Allow 15 days qualifying unlock device credit.

[Tracy Thomas]

Service ported 90 plus days with device.

[Justine K]

Ineligible carrier and timely redemption required.

[Tracy Thomas]

Card has no cash access and expires in six months. All right, we're back. Before we get into your reading life, we do this thing on the show called Ask the Stacks where someone emails me for book recommendations. They email Ask the stacks@the stackspodcast.com so person listening at home. You should definitely do that so you can get your recommendations on air. This one is from someone named Ashley. Ashley says, I am writing to you on behalf of my mother in law Martha. She has advanced Parkinson's and spends a lot of time reading as it is an activity she not only enjoys, but one she can enjoy safely. She enjoys fiction, especially historical fiction, but she reads non fiction also. I'm sure you cannot relate, but two authors that come to mind that she loves are Kristin, Hannah and Elena Ferrante. She loves all things British and Australian, enjoys family sagas. I would be so curious to see these interests of hers translate into a non fiction recommendation. So I obviously prepared. I have three recommendations for Martha, but you should think if you can come up with any, you only have to do one. Okay, I can go first if you'd like. Yeah, okay Ashley, you're correct. I cannot relate to loving Kristen Hannah and Elena Ferrante. In fact I've never read either so I have no clue what that means except for I have a general sense. I don't know that your mother in law will like these, but I'm gonna try. So the first one I'm gonna give you is a book, book that I recommended to my own mother in law, which is called the Anthropocene reviewed by John Green. It's a collection of essays where John Green goes through different things from the Anthropocene, our current geological age. And he reviews them, things like sunsets and Canada geese and queer tea from the keyboard. Oh, and he reviews them on a scale from one to five stars. And it is so lovely and heartwarming and funny and smart and well written, and it is just such a joy. I loved it. My mother in law loved it. And I don't know that Martha will particularly love it, but it does have so many different facets and things to be interested in and curious about. And because they're like these little sweet essays, it's just like a really enjoyable read. I definitely think it's like a comfort read for a moment, like right now. So that's my first one. My second one is probably, I would guess, going to be the most successful of my three recommendations, which is called all the frequent trouble of our days by Rebecca Donner. The book is about this woman who was part of the resistance against the Nazis in Germany. She was American. And it's just this really interesting story, sort of of like spies and like, obviously resisting fascism. And it's really cool and has lots of twists and turns and it is. It feels like historical fiction. In a lot of ways, though. It is actually just real life history. They have a plot to, like, assassinate Hitler in there. It's a famous plot. People will be familiar with it if you, if you read the book. Also in this vein, I would say, like Eric Larson's and the Garden of Beasts is sort of a similar kind of book. And then my. My third and final, which actually maybe this will be my most successful because this is actually just historical fiction, which is if you leave me by Crystal Hanukim. It's about a young woman during. In Korea during the time of the Korean War who is in a love triangle. And it's really sweet and I love this book. And we did it on book club the first year of this podcast, and I still think about the book all the time. I just loved it. It's like, really, I was surprised how much I loved it. I loved the characters. The writing is really beautiful. The story was unlike anything I'd before. And so I think. I think Martha is going to be happy with all three of those, but I don't think they're exactly what you asked for, Ashley. But you know what? When have I ever followed a direction? You're not the boss of me. Okay, Justine. What? Do you have anything?

[Justine K]

Yes, I do.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay.

[Justine K]

I have one of my favorite historical nonfiction. I want to say this is considered a biography.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay.

[Justine K]

Called Once Upon a Secret by Mimi Alford.

[Tracy Thomas]

I don't know. This.

[Justine K]

This is about her affair with JFK when she was 18 years old and an intern.

[Tracy Thomas]

We love a mess.

[Justine K]

Love it, love it. I think that's my favorite part about historical anything is all the stuff that was covered up and then all the people who wrote all of these nasty details after these books. Yes, but Mimi writes about how three days into going to the White House, she was like, pulled into his office and pulled into the press office and had this. This long affair with jfk. Very emotionally involved with him. And it is really intense, but in a way that you're like, damn, Mimi, you're not involved at all. You're not putting yourself in anything, anybody's shoes. It's just you observing from the outside. So it can be very escapist in the same way.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay, I love this. Ashley, please let us know if your mother in law reads any of these books. Let us know what she thinks. And for folks at home, if you want to get a recommendation on air, email, ask the Stacks atthestacks podcast.com. okay, Justine, first and foremost, let's start where we always start. What is two books you love and one book you hate?

[Justine K]

Oh, I can't wait to talk about the one I hate.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, my God, I love you. This is why we're friends. Everybody's always like, I don't hate any books. And I'm like, what? I listen. That's my reaction every time I try to be respectful, but on the inside, I'm literally just like. Like you. Yes, you do. They're like, I don't finish books I hate. I'm like, you. You know you finished it and you know you want to talk about it, but your friend probably wrote it.

[Justine K]

Yeah, yeah. Oh, please.

[Tracy Thomas]

Well, okay.

[Justine K]

I'm gonna do two of my favorite books. One is a long time, one is a short time. Long time. Has to be Dessert Person by Claire Saffitz.

[Tracy Thomas]

I don't know this. What? No, I don't know it. Okay.

[Justine K]

Claire Saffitz, one of my all time favorite chefs. She was big on the Bon Appetit YouTube channel.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes, yes, yes. This is a cookbook. Okay. Yes. Okay, I know this. I know this.

[Justine K]

Yeah. She was one of my all time favorites from Bon Appetit, which was my Roman Empire for years. Downfall of Bon Appetit. And right after that, she came out with this genius book called Dessert Person. And Claire is a very, very smart lady. And so she has, like, a diagram of all the recipes. All of the recipes now have, like, very sentimental value to me because I've made them in very sentimental moments in my life. And I just. She has a lot of video, too. She does a lot of, like, just really great demonstration. There's beautiful images in the book. It's just a great, all around, great cookbook book. And then the other book that I loved this summer was Curvy Girl Summer, which I already mentioned.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Justine K]

Best romance novel I've ever read, I want to say. And. Yeah, just puts you into this, like, really lovely, empowering moment that this curvy woman has for her summer. And great sex scenes, too. So if you're into that.

[Tracy Thomas]

We love a good. I love a good sex scene.

[Justine K]

Yeah, definitely. Hate is the guest by Emma Klein.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, you. Okay. There's listeners at home from the stacks who are obsessed with this answer. Because I know a lot of people hate this book, talk about it, but a lot of people love it.

[Justine K]

A lot of people love it, which is why I read it. One of the people who love it, I love Quinta Brunson.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh.

[Justine K]

She said that she wanted to make it into a TV show. And I said, oh, my God.

[Tracy Thomas]

God.

[Justine K]

Well, I have to read it now. Quinta wants to make it into a TV show. So I read it, and I was horrified by the end at how despicable Emma was to. To. To these characters. To the reader, it was. So there was no character development. No.

[Tracy Thomas]

You.

[Justine K]

He had nobody to root for either. So it felt kind of hard to, like, keep going. But you want to keep going because you want to see what happened in the end. And then the end was Plateau. Flat.

[Tracy Thomas]

Awful. Emma, You. How dare you. Emma Plateau. Okay, I didn't ask you this before. What kind of reader are you? How did you get into reading? Have you always read? Have you always loved books? Can you just give us sort of a sense of, like, what do you like to read more broadly?

[Justine K]

Yeah, I have always loved reading. I started reading pretty early. That's a really, like, high value for my family and my mom. My niece right now is 17 months old, and we're already like, okay, what are we doing with these letters? She's recognizing the letters and stuff.

[Tracy Thomas]

So we are like, how old were you when you started reading?

[Justine K]

My mother claims two and a half.

[Tracy Thomas]

Your mom, come teach my little badass almost five year old story.

[Justine K]

It's different with boys. I don't know how it was my brother.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay, okay, okay. Got it.

[Justine K]

But yeah, I started really reading really young. My, like, emotional support. A lot of people have an emotional support stuffed animal. I had emotional support books that I would carry around.

[Tracy Thomas]

Which one was it?

[Justine K]

Oh, my God. It was something, I don't know, like, oops, she fell down. It was like a sentence. It was a full sentence. So I used to carry that around with me. And then when I was, I want to say, a teenager, my family and I were going through some really wild socioeconomic things. I was going to a really elite private school. It was really intense. So I would read a lot of either Nicholas Sparks, so like a real romance or hood urban novels.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay, okay.

[Justine K]

Favorite genres still to this day. So a lot of Sister Soldier. And she has a new book out this year. What?

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, I think there's. I think there's a new Sister Soldier book that came. That comes out this year.

[Justine K]

I cannot wait. I can't wait.

[Tracy Thomas]

It's called Love After Midnight.

[Justine K]

Perfect.

[Tracy Thomas]

I think it came out. It came out this month. It came out or it came out in October? Yeah.

[Justine K]

Yes.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay. Go to the bookstore. Go to your local indie. Get it. Okay. So you loved reading. You were reading Nicholas, you were reading Caucasian romance and then black.

[Justine K]

Yeah. Yep, yep.

[Tracy Thomas]

And then now where are we? What kind of reader are you now? You still like romance? You like cookbooks? We share this. We love a cookbook.

[Justine K]

I love a cookbook. I absolutely adore your cookbook episodes. They are my all time favorites. Thank you. And yeah, I love reading a cookbook as if it's a textbook.

[Tracy Thomas]

Me too. Me too. Solas is like the gold standard of like, if you just want to, like, learn about cooking.

[Justine K]

Yeah. She's a great teacher too. She's another one. Great teacher.

[Tracy Thomas]

Great teacher.

[Justine K]

And yeah, so I love reading cookbooks and then I love reading romance novels, but I really do, at any time when I'm feeling enraged or like, trapped in my feelings of any type, love reading about history and abolitionism because it's just the easiest way to curb those feelings internally.

[Tracy Thomas]

I feel like you and I really connected after I did your show when we started talking about books and I recommended Thick to you and then you ended up loving it and I was like, okay, we can be friends. Yes.

[Justine K]

Yep. Someone just asked me, what's the book that like, changes your life or what's the book every woman should read? I was like, thick by trustee McMillan got him. She's the best.

[Tracy Thomas]

She's the best. She's the hero. To me, she is the gold standard of, like, public intellectual.

[Justine K]

Yeah. Oh, yeah, definitely.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay. What are you reading right now?

[Justine K]

So right now. Oh, my God. I just finished a romance book called the Wedding Date.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, Jasmine Guillory. What did you think of it? That's the red one. That's the first one, right?

[Justine K]

The red one.

[Tracy Thomas]

I've read that one. Yeah, right.

[Justine K]

People don't talk like that.

[Tracy Thomas]

People love her books. I understand why I read the first one. I started the second one and I just couldn't. Yeah, it's a little too tidy for me. Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah. It just. It didn't do it for me. What are some books you're looking forward to reading?

[Justine K]

Oh, my gosh. Well, I'm really looking forward to reading this new Sister Soldier book that made my whole. And then I'm looking forward to finishing the message. And I usually buy romance books three at a time.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay.

[Justine K]

So right now I am gonna start. Take a hint, Danny Brown.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. That's part of a series, right? That's the.

[Justine K]

Yeah. Series. Yeah. And then I gotta move into the. Oh, my gosh, what is her name? I can't think of her name right now. But one of the famed authors. I have, like you, a hard page limit.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay.

[Justine K]

Of 300. 350 if it's great. I'm gonna extend that 400.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay.

[Justine K]

I think I have to.

[Tracy Thomas]

For all books or specifically romance.

[Justine K]

Romance.

[Tracy Thomas]

Romance, yeah. 4. I read a 400 or something page romance book this year and I just don't know that you can sustain 400 pages if you're just talking about one. Couples romance. But I feel this way about all fiction. I'm just like. I don't know that I need to be here with you for 400 pages. If it's just one person thinking about doing something. Like, if they're doing, like. If you've got a character who's out in the world moving and shaking up, I'll go with you. 700. But if it's just one storyline, I don't need it.

[Justine K]

No, but most of those books are series and so they move into the friend groups and they move all the way throughout.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

[Justine K]

I'm gonna try it. I'm gonna say.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay. And you and I are going to be reading Luster very soon. Yes. By Raven Leilani for book club, which I'm very excited about. Very excited. I only know that it is about a Young black woman in New York, I think, who meets a white dude who's like, middle aged, married, has kids, I think lives in the suburbs and is in an open. Or has a wife that's open to an open marriage.

[Justine K]

Rich.

[Tracy Thomas]

It is. I don't know anything. But what I do know, what I'm smelling a mile away, is racial politics.

[Justine K]

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. That wife is going to be like, I can't wait.

[Tracy Thomas]

I can't. I can't wait till the wife touches her hair.

[Justine K]

Oh, my God.

[Tracy Thomas]

I can't wait till the wife asks why she always puts. Puts lotion after they shower.

[Justine K]

Yep. Yep.

[Tracy Thomas]

I cannot wait to see two Americas together on a page. And it's a short one, so everyone, you're welcome. By on purpose. We wanted to do short for November because we don't know where our heads are going to be at.

[Justine K]

Oh, my God. It's a holiday month. It's a lot. The burrs are a lot.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, the burrs are so much.

[Justine K]

Wow.

[Tracy Thomas]

September is the only one that's acceptable.

[Justine K]

Yeah. And your kids go back to school in September, right?

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. So that's a dream for me. That is. My God, they went back in August. It was, like, nice. Yeah. But they don't be in school at all in December, Right? These holidays be stacking up. Oh, man, I get it. Teachers don't want to be with my kids either. They shouldn't have to be. But is there somewhere the kids can be away from all adults, but also safe and taken care of?

[Justine K]

Winter camp.

[Tracy Thomas]

There is winter camp. There is. But because of the holidays, it's weird because it's like two days here and one day here. It's just like. I don't know. And plus, like, I guess I have to see my kids on, like, Christmas and Christmas Eve.

[Justine K]

Allegedly. Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

But.

[Justine K]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. Anyways, this is not a talk about your kids podcast necessarily. It is, but it isn't. Okay. What. How. Okay, how do you decide what your next book is going to be? How do you decide what to read next?

[Justine K]

Oh, my God, that's such a good question. I. Okay. For the message. Right. I didn't want to necessarily dive into what Mr. Coates, Professor Coates, had to say right now, because right now is a really stiff time. And then he got up on NPR and he said, all this racist shit just makes me sell more books, so whatever you want. Like, it doesn't matter.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, I'm.

[Justine K]

I'm good either way.

[Tracy Thomas]

Right.

[Justine K]

And I was like, wait, that's my same attitude about everything. Like, whenever we just got a one star review on Apple podcast. It was like too much political talk and I was like, that's a five star review to me.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Justine K]

I didn't realize me and Professor Coates had that in common.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, I like that. Thanks to the haters, I also have this in common. Yeah, always. Always. My favorite version of myself is when I get to be the villain on your show when I come on and talk about race and then people are mad at me because I just let them know that someone maybe is black and they don't like that.

[Justine K]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

But you know what? I'm never wrong. No, someone is always maybe black. Example. Primo numero uno. Fogging Stephen from Love is Blind.

[Justine K]

Blind. Oh my God, that black man.

[Tracy Thomas]

That, that African American. Okay, the Ghanaian Nigerian. What is so fudgeing crazy? I know we have talked about this at length because I can't not talk about it, but that man, that light skinned black man said, I found out I was 3/5 black. Which is so crazy to say, like just so great. It's like accidentally amaz. Unless he knows. I can't tell if he knew the history and said it on purpose or if it was an act. Was it just like a perfect accident? Was it just like in the ether? Anyways, he says he's three fist black and then he's like. So I went to the library and I checked out books on Ghana and Nigeria. I'm like, my guy, your blackness is so uniquely American at this point. The fact that you're not reading like passing by Nella Larson.

[Justine K]

I was like, why didn't you watch Imitation of Life?

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes. Why did you go and read like a book about Accra. You need to be reading a book about Mobile, Alabama. My guy shapes Baldwin.

[Justine K]

You need to be reading about how to knit a dashiki.

[Tracy Thomas]

You don't need to read that. Yes. You are so far removed from the homeland at this point. Do not start there. Do not. Do not at least start at the transatlantic slave trade, my guy.

[Justine K]

At least. At least. Because you don't then get up on international worldwide television and say to your wife to be wife, I like your black girl headband. That is a bonnet, sir.

[Tracy Thomas]

He also called her a mutt.

[Justine K]

He sure did.

[Tracy Thomas]

She called herself on a still. You just got black, my guy. You don't get to be saying, but you're at the library checking out Nigerian culture for dummies, okay? How dare you. He said, I'm gonna take. I'm gonna learn how to make jollof rice, okay?

[Justine K]

Yeah. Yeah. That's what's most important right now. Yep.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay. I don't even know how we got here, but okay. What is. What's a book you like to recommend to people?

[Justine K]

Mm, I really love recommending. Thick, obviously, is one that I like to recommend to all women. But White Rage, by Dr. Carol Anderson, that's another gem that you recommended for me that explains so many things. And what it does, too, is knowledge. What knowledge always does for me, as I've said now four times, is that knowledge, like, quells anger.

[Tracy Thomas]

Right.

[Justine K]

So when I go to Pennsylvania to the pumpkin patch with my mixed niece, and I see trump hats and trump signs all over the place, I kind of know where those people are coming from.

[Tracy Thomas]

Right.

[Justine K]

Historically and internally. And knowing that I know and they don't is enough for me to not get nearly as angry.

[Tracy Thomas]

That's a great point. Okay, how do you organize your books? Do you organize your books?

[Justine K]

Ooh, great question. I just got this bookshelf because we needed the second one. Okay, I really need to get. Get a library card so that I can start returning these back, because I buy these romance books three. Three at a time, and it's not. It's. I don't have enough room for this.

[Tracy Thomas]

The library is amazing.

[Justine K]

The library is the best.

[Tracy Thomas]

Do you have a favorite bookstore?

[Justine K]

I do. Oh, my gosh. My bookstore that I had growing up Watch on Booksellers in Montclair, New Jersey.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay.

[Justine K]

It is.

[Tracy Thomas]

What's it called?

[Justine K]

Watchung Booksellers Avenue in Montcalaire. And it is owned by a lovely, lovely woman who I went to, like, camp with her daughter. Like, we went way back. This bookstore has been open for over 20 years. They now have a cafe that they bought next door that is, like, old and cute, and it just smells. You can't. You can't even replace the smell.

[Tracy Thomas]

You cannot. You cannot. What's the last book that made you laugh?

[Justine K]

Oh, man. Who was on here talking about they don't like jokes and books. Was it Chelsea?

[Tracy Thomas]

It was probably me.

[Justine K]

It was probably you talking to Chelsea. Right?

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Justine K]

I don't like that either. I don't. And I especially don't like it when they say and then they cackled in laughter. I'm not laughing now. I feel left out.

[Tracy Thomas]

I am now laughing.

[Justine K]

Okay, you know what might have been actually, though? That primal playbook.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, good. Laughter.

[Justine K]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

You are doing a hyena sound. Okay, what about the last book that made you cry?

[Justine K]

Oh, my God, it's been a while, because that's what I'VE been trying to escape.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Justine K]

Oh, probably thick. The first, like. Like eight pages of thick.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. Oh, so good. What about the last book that made you feel angry?

[Justine K]

Oh, angry. Oh, the Guest by Emma Klein.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay. What's a book that brings you joy?

[Justine K]

Oh, a book that brings me joy. I'm trying to think. Just trying to think here. My. That niece is obsessed with this book where this little boy turns into a walrus.

[Tracy Thomas]

What's it called?

[Justine K]

I forget what it's called. I think it's Peter turns into a walrus or some shenanigans like that. It's just so much fun because she breezes right through it, but she kind of makes the noises.

[Tracy Thomas]

Is it called Johnny the Walrus?

[Justine K]

Johnny the Walrus, Maybe. Yeah, probably. Yeah. And she's at the point now where she's, like, imitating animals. What does a penguin do? What does a cat now do? And so that. It brings me a lot of joy.

[Tracy Thomas]

I love that. Okay, Is there any book that you're, like, embarrassed that you've never read or just as, like, the one book you're like, I need to read that thing.

[Justine K]

God, I have so many.

[Tracy Thomas]

Me too.

[Justine K]

I have so many. Well, first of all, I can admit this now. It's towards the end of the show, so I can admit this now. I have not finished Tar Baby by Toni Morrison.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, it's okay.

[Justine K]

Is it?

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Justine K]

Oh, I started so long ago, about halfway through. And I just. Until after. I was gonna say the election day. I'm gonna say Inauguration day.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay.

[Justine K]

I just can't do anymore.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. How do you know how far you are? Have you gotten to the dinner scene?

[Justine K]

I'm about halfway through.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay. There's. I think it's chapter six. There's a scene in chapter six that is so good. Unreal.

[Justine K]

Oh, my God. I gotta go back and see if I've already passed.

[Tracy Thomas]

I think it's. I think it's slightly past halfway.

[Justine K]

Okay.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, okay.

[Justine K]

Okay.

[Tracy Thomas]

But I can't quite remember. I think there's one in four and one in six, if I'm remembering. Or six and eight. There's, like, one. There's one and then there's a chapter, and then there's another scene that's even better. And I was, like, gagged and gooped. Okay. Do you have a problematic favorite book?

[Justine K]

I don't think so. I don't think I'm at that level yet. It. The Coldest Winter Ever is one of my faves.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Justine K]

And that, you know, not exactly scholarly.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. Yeah. What about a favorite Book that was assigned to you in school. Do you remember any of that?

[Justine K]

Oh, my God. I. You. The Secret Garden is one of my faves.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, I never read that. Well, I feel like I saw the movie.

[Justine K]

Okay. Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

I don't think I was moved by that story. For some reason.

[Justine K]

I was living.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Justine K]

Me and Natasha are both entranced by a secret garden experience. We are both very obsessed with Vanessa Hudgens ad house tour because she has three secret gardens in her house.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, three.

[Justine K]

She's three. Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

That's what high school also have. Un. Secret gardens. Just like regular gardens.

[Justine K]

I think she has one in the front.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay. Wow. The ratio is one to three on Secret Garden. Okay. Okay, cool. I guess. Wait, I can't. I can never remember. If I get these two movies confused, I think, is there a little black girl in the secret garden?

[Justine K]

Whoa. No, I don't remember that.

[Tracy Thomas]

There is a movie with a little white girl who, like, lives in an attic. And there's like, a black girl named Sarah or something that's like her friend. Oh, my God. I can't remember what it's called. Someone who's listening. You will know what I'm talking about. This is so embarrassing because I can't think of it. I'll try to Google it and find it and put in the show notes, but it's like. I feel like it's like the Secret Garden, but I liked it more.

[Justine K]

Oh.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, my God.

[Justine K]

Because she had her black friend with her.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, Like. Like a something princess. Maybe. Like secret princess or something.

[Justine K]

Oh, maybe. Yeah. What?

[Tracy Thomas]

The secret princess movie.

[Justine K]

Black girl.

[Tracy Thomas]

It is Black girl. A little princess.

[Justine K]

A little princess.

[Tracy Thomas]

A little princess. I think that's what it's called. A little princess. Sarah is sent to a strict board. Yes. This is it. Sarah is sent to a strict boarding school after her father enlists in World War I. When she is. When he is presumed dead. The headmistress, knowing she will not receive any more money, forces the girl to become a servant. Then she meets a black girl. Other. Other Sarah or whatever. Okay.

[Justine K]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

I love the little princess. And I always wanted Secret Garden to be a little princess. And Secret Garden was never a little princess. Secret Garden could never do the race play that is happening in A Little Princess. Never. Okay. If you were a high school teacher, what's a book you would assign to your students?

[Justine K]

I would assign anything. Colson Whitehead.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay. Okay.

[Justine K]

I think he is great. That's the last book that gave me a Nightmare was underground.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, okay.

[Justine K]

So anything by him and then. Absolutely. Dr. Carol Anderson.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, yeah.

[Justine K]

She makes you appreciate education to a degree that I, after going to school, still paying for this goddamn school. I never appreciated education as much as I did.

[Tracy Thomas]

Could you imagine if she was your teacher? Just like I know those kids at Emory. Lucky kids. You know, she came on the show and it was like one of my favorite episodes ever. I think you text me about it. She was so great. Okay, okay, last one feels extra timely, but we're going to stick with the current president. If you could require the current president, Joe Beasy, to read one book, what would it be?

[Justine K]

Oh, my gosh. Something about student loans. I don't know exactly what, but. Oh, and Joe, I still remember how he treated Anita too. I never forget that. I know he set up Cam, but I'll never forget. And I'm a nickname person. Guys, don't be like offended. I'm just calling people by nicknames. I call Barack Berry. It just is what it is. So maybe, maybe something else about and by black women. Maybe.

[Tracy Thomas]

Wait, who is Cam?

[Justine K]

Oh.

[Tracy Thomas]

I see, I see, I see. Wow, Cam, that's not what I would call her. I don't know what her nickname should be though. Yeah, because Cam is in short for calm. It's gotta be. Yeah, Calm Old commie. Old Commie Clause. Not gonna work. We'll. We'll workshop nicknames. Hopefully by the time you all are finishing listening to this episode, she will be our president elect and we'll have plenty of time to come up with nicknames. We will have. We did it. Kamala Memes. We will have all the things we need. It'll be Walls. Old Coach Walls.

[Justine K]

Yes.

[Tracy Thomas]

Saying we did it. Cam. Please, please. From my lips to whoever you believe in's ears.

[Justine K]

Oh my God. To everyone that everyone believes in.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes. It just to anything. We're stick. We're going to Elmo whoever it is you need to believe in right now. Elmo, save us. Whether it's Elmo or Levar Burton, whoever your God is, please, please, we want to like this episode in the future. And if things go bad, no one will ever listen to this episode. No. The truth of a Podcaster. Okay, everyone, serious now. We have a book club coming up. Justine will be back on Wednesday, November 27th to discuss Luster by Raven Leilani. You can get that book for 10% off off through Reparations Club, which is a black queer women owned bookstore here in Los Angeles. If you go to their website, rep.club, search for luster and use the code stacks10 and get 10 off. You're supporting a black owned business. It's a great thing. We will link to Justine's Everything in the show notes Justine, thank you so much for being here.

[Justine K]

Thanks for having me. This is so much fun.

[Tracy Thomas]

Everyone else, we will see you in the Stacks. All right y'all, that does it for us today. Thank you so much for listening and thank you again to Justine K for joining the show. Don't forget the Stacks Book Club pick for November is Luster by Raven Leilani and we will be discussing the book on Wednesday, November 27th with Justine K. If you love the show and you want inside access to it, head to Patreon to join the Stacks Pack and subscribe to my newsletter@tracy thomas.substack.com make sure you're also subscribed to the podcast wherever you listen to your podcasts. If you're listening through Apple Podcasts or Spotify, please be sure to leave us a rating and a review. For more from the Stacks, follow us on social media at the Stacks Pod, on Instagram threads and TikTok and at the Stacks pod underscore on Twitter and you can always check out the website@the stacks podcast.com this episode of the Stacks was edited by Christian Duenas with production assistance from Megan Caballero. Our graphic designer is Robin McKrite, and our theme music is from Tagirigis. The Stax is created and produced by me, Tracy Thomas.