← The Stacks
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- [00:00]
Tracy Thomas
Okay y'all, it's the holiday season, which likely means you've got a lot on your plate. And I have something that can help you make your life a little easier. And it isn't what you're thinking. It is Miracle Made Sheets. How can she help in this crazy time of life, you might ask? Well, let me count the ways. 1. They have thermoregulating technology inspired by NASA that helps you to stay cool and comfortable all night long. That means better sleep. 2. The silver infused fabrics prevent up to 99.7% of bacterial growth, leaving them to stay cleaner and fresher three times longer. That means you're doing less chores, changing and washing your sheets. 3. Less bacteria. That also means clearer, cleaner skin, less acne. And four these sheets make an incredible gift. You're giving the luxury hotel sheet experience without the luxury price tag. So now Miracle Made has helped you have more sleep, less laundry, cleaner skin and checked off a gift to give to that difficult person on your list. Go to try miracle.com the stacks to try Miracle Made sheets today and whether you're buying them for yourself or as a gift for a loved one, if you order today you can save over 40% and if you use our promo code the stacks at checkout you'll get three free towels and save an extra 20%. Miracle is so confident in their product it is backed by a 30 day money back guarantee. So if you aren't 100 satisfied, you'll get a full refund. Upgrade your sleep with Miracle Made, go to try miracle.com the stacks and use the code the stacks to claim your free three piece towel set and save over 40% off. Again, that's try miracle.com the stacks to treat yourself. Thank you Miracle Made for sponsoring this episode. Welcome to the Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host Tracy Thomas and it is time for everyone's favorite episode of the year. It is the best books of 2024 all broken down for you with two incredible guests. I am joined today by Greta Johnson, who is the former host of Nerdette and a longtime friend of this very podcast, as well as MJ Franklin, editor at the New York Times Book Review. These are two iconic book people and I am so excited to have them with me as we talk about the trends of the year, what we loved, what we hated, and of course, our 10 best books. We're also going to look forward to 2025 and a few titles we cannot wait to read. Remember our book club pick for December is Tacky by Rax King. I will be back with Nora McInerney to discuss this book on Wednesday day, December 25th. Yes, Christmas. So be sure to read along and tune in. Quick reminder, everything we talk about on each episode of the Stacks can be found in the link in the show notes. If you love this podcast, if you want more of it, if you want inside access, a readerly community, bonus episodes, monthly virtual book club meetups, all of that and more, you got to go join the Stacks Pack over on Patreon. That's patreon.com the stacks. You get all those things I listed. You'll get to be part of our Mega Reading Challenge which kicks off January 1st. You'll get to vote in our annual reading awards, the Stackies. You'll get access to my book tracker which I talk about on today's episode. You only get that through the end of the month, so go to patreon.com the stacks and join to earn those perks. Another perk is that you get a shout out on the show. So thank you so much to Jody Zmer, Karen Gomar, Nessa Ro and AJ Wall for joining the Stacks Pack. Also, you can now gift access to the Stacks Pack by going to patreon.com thestacks gift. This is a great last minute gift and I even have a little gift card you can print out, wrap up and slide under the tree for the book lover in your life. One more way you can support the show is by subscribing to my newsletter. That is Tracy thomas.substack.com It's called Unstacked. I give you bookish hot takes. I give you lists, power rankings, all sorts of good stuff. And you can gift that as well. Go to Tracy thomas.substack.com okay, that's it. Are you guys ready for this? Time for our best books of 2024 with Greta Johnson and MJ Franklin. All right everybody. It is everyone's favorite episode of the year. Unfortunately for this podcast I have to wait till the second to last week of the year to get you all to listen. But here we are. The time has come. It is our Best Books of the Year episode. I have brought in two extremely heavy hitters. I have Greta Johnson. You already know her. You all love her. She is formerly the host host of the Nerd At Podcast. She is currently the author of the Greta Graham sub stack that is so popular. She's given you recipes. She's given you book club. She also hosts podcasts about things that aren't books which, like, I don't even know what those are. I guess there's TV shows that some of you watch.
- [05:19]
Greta Johnson
Something called Game of Thrones and Dune. Don't worry about it.
- [05:22]
Tracy Thomas
Two little things, but both based on books. So, yeah, I've never seen either of those things, but I think some of you have. You heard the Voice. It's Greta Johnson. Welcome back, Greta.
- [05:34]
Greta Johnson
Tracy, I'm so excited to be here. I'm not talking about books enough, so I'm just, like, thrill. I'm giddy to get to be here with y'all today.
- [05:41]
Tracy Thomas
I'm so thrilled. Our second guest back for a second year in a row. He is an editor at the New York Times Book Review. Ever heard of it? A small publication that talks about a few books and has zero influence in the culture. He is a friend of the show, a genius, a lovely human, a legend among men. MJ Franklin.
- [06:05]
MJ Franklin
What an intro. Thank you for having me. I had so much fun doing this episode last year. So thank you, number one, for having me back. And then two. Can I just say, I am huge fans of books. Like, whenever we get together, it's like the most fun time we have talking about books. I was at a book party a few weeks ago, and I spent the entire time talking to various people about how much we love specifically both of you. We're like, tracy is on top of the world this year. This is her year. We were like, greta is, like, doing everything. How does she have the time? So in addition to just, like, loving talking about books, I love talking with you and also about you. I'm just. I'm just Stans. I'm just Stan's stand of both of you.
- [06:44]
Tracy Thomas
It's so embarrassing because I feel the same way. And I know people at home listening are like, shut up. You guys are so annoying. Stop being friends. Start talking shit. But you know what? You can't break this bond, Greta. You linked us together, the three of us together for the first time. When you made us talk about a book that I didn't like, that. That MJ did like about a serial killer. But it was literary and.
- [07:07]
Greta Johnson
Yep. And that was years ago.
- [07:09]
Tracy Thomas
Notes on an execution.
- [07:10]
Greta Johnson
It was notes on an execution.
- [07:11]
MJ Franklin
Still love that book.
- [07:13]
Greta Johnson
Same. And still love you, Tracy. That, like, the bond was formed and we are. Yeah. This is just like, so much fun always for the three of us to be together. So thanks for doing that, Tracy.
- [07:22]
Tracy Thomas
So we're back. We got the band back together, and now we're doing 2,024 book. So can you Both just quickly introduce yourself to the audience as far as what kind of books you generally are drawn to so that they have a sense when you name your favorite books. If you're like, oh, my favorite book is a book about botany. And you're like, oh, I'm also a botanist. Like, people might need to know what you look for. What kind of books, like, really speak to your soul. So, Greta, do you wanna start there?
- [07:50]
Greta Johnson
Gosh, yes. This is a good question, and I probably should have thought about that more. But I guess as a reader, so I. I don't read the back of the book. I find the synopsis to give away too much. So I am going. I am judging books by covers and I am going off of blurbs. I think my favorites are literary fiction that are still, like. I'm tempted to use the word trashy, but, like, have, like, a tastiness. They don't feel like homework. They're. They're good, they're fun, they're delicious, they go down easy, but they're still about the things. Is like, generally the sort of book I like. So usually it's plotty, sometimes it's a little salacious. But those I would say are like my absolute favorites. But beyond that, I mean, I also, like, I'm a big genre reader. I'll do especially sci fi and fantasy. I really love. And romance now and then too. So it's like a pretty broad, but mostly fiction for the most part.
- [08:47]
Tracy Thomas
Okay. Mj, how about you?
- [08:49]
MJ Franklin
I am very similar. I am a fiction girl through and through. That is where my home is. I try to read pretty broadly, though, so I do dabble in nonfiction, but, like, fiction is where I feel most comfortable. And then in fiction, I read all over. I love literary fiction. I want meticulously crafted sentences. I want a strong metaphor. I want a feeling that something is afoot. I don't want just the story, but I like. I want some type of rendering there. I'm using all these pretentious words, but, like, that's what I. That's what. That's what hooks me. Not just the story, but, like, how we get there, how it's told. I do read genre. I dabble at some horror, some romance. I read pretty widely sometimes. I like quiet books where nothing really happens. You just kind of feel ambiently bad along with the character. Sometimes I love a book with a maximalist plot, but that the overall feeling of fiction, where you feel like something is afoot, is how I would describe myself.
- [09:53]
Tracy Thomas
I love that. I love Something is a foot that's the only kind of fiction I like.
- [09:57]
MJ Franklin
It's gotta be a fiction, right?
- [09:59]
Tracy Thomas
So similar to you all, I like things afoot. I like things to happen if I'm reading fiction, unlike you, mj, if nothing happens, it's an automatic close goodbye. Never wanna talk to you again. Why are you wasting my time?
- [10:13]
Greta Johnson
Yeah, I'm closer to that, too. Like, oh, my God, if it's.
- [10:16]
MJ Franklin
Yeah.
- [10:16]
Tracy Thomas
If it's fiction, I need something. Even if it's just the fear of something is gonna happen that might be enough to sustain me through a book if it's short. But as you all know, listening, my bread and butter is nonfiction. I love nonfiction. If you can give me good narrative nonfiction, you can become my boyfriend. That is how I started dating Patrick Raden. Keith. He gave me good nonfiction, and we've been going steady for years now. Okay. And I also. I love any sort of nonfiction about a government agency or a very wealthy organization who's done a terrible, terrible thing that's really my. My extremely niche love. But also a memoir I can be into. But you all know that. Okay. Another question about your year in reading this year is. I don't know how. How much you all track your reading. I'm intense. But approximately how many books have you read up until this point? We've got two weeks left in the year. And then how many of those would you say were 20 releases if you had to guess?
- [11:18]
MJ Franklin
I guess I can start. Because my easy answer is, I have no clue. We've talked about. I think we talked about this last year.
- [11:24]
Tracy Thomas
Oh, yeah.
- [11:25]
MJ Franklin
The reason is because I, like, separate my personal reading versus my work reading. But I spend all my time doing work reading. So I also meticulously track work reading. I have a spreadsheet, and I think right Now I'm at 51 books for me personally. But it takes a lot for a book to get onto that list. I can read something, like, for work many times, and unless I've read it specifically for me, it doesn't go in there. And, Tracy, we talked about this last year, and I think.
- [11:54]
Tracy Thomas
So the 51 is the personal, not the work reading.
- [11:58]
MJ Franklin
Correct. So that's 51 on top of all my work reading.
- [12:01]
Tracy Thomas
And do you have any sense of what the work reading is?
- [12:04]
MJ Franklin
Not at all. Not at all. Because we're just reading constantly. Constantly. And here's a prime example of why it's so hard to tabulate. Say, I'm trying to choose a book for book club, and I read 75% into four different books right Right. I will finish the one that we end up doing.
- [12:22]
Tracy Thomas
Right.
- [12:23]
MJ Franklin
That makes it onto my list. The other three don't unless I go back and read them later. But at that point it's like, what, weeks, Months afterward? Like I'm not in that same headspace. So that doesn't feel like a normal person reading experience. So it doesn't go on my spreadsheet.
- [12:39]
Tracy Thomas
Unless you need to take notes next year. Because now I'm so curious. I know how many of like, you need to just make a little spreadsheet where it's like, finished it, didn't finish it.
- [12:49]
Greta Johnson
Yeah. Dabbled.
- [12:50]
Tracy Thomas
Just because I need to know. I'm just so curious, like, how many books you're reading into. Especially because, like, you're a professional reader at an institution. So I'm curious, like, what that looks like for someone of your ilk.
- [13:02]
MJ Franklin
Yeah. This is a good note and I definitely will, I've, I've, I've been getting this question enough that I hate not having a good answer. So I will amend my spreadsheet next year. But part of the reason for me of this spreadsheet and why I separated it out is because I'm sure you two get this all the time. Like, reading for work can sometimes take the pleasure out of reading. And so having a spreadsheet or some type of barrier that says actually you need to focus on you is helpful. So that's why I'm so strict about compartmentalizing to keep the joy of reading alive.
- [13:33]
Greta Johnson
Yeah.
- [13:33]
Tracy Thomas
Make a different tab for your. So in my reading spreadsheet, I have a tab for reason read. And it's a drop down for fun, for work, for the stacks, book club, for the reading challenge, for whatever. And so that way I can see everything I've read together, but I can also see why I read something and then there's like a little calculation so I know the percentage, blah, blah.
- [13:54]
Greta Johnson
That's so interesting though, because ideally it is both for fun and for work. Right?
- [13:58]
Tracy Thomas
So I mean, isn't that everything is technically work? Yeah, well, it's, I think it's different for mj.
- [14:03]
MJ Franklin
I get assigned, I guess everything.
- [14:05]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, everything I read, I get to choose what I'm reading. I don't get assigned anything. And then also everything I read I end up reviewing on my page. So it's technically work at some point.
- [14:16]
Greta Johnson
Right.
- [14:17]
Tracy Thomas
But I, I, I try to go in with like, why did I pick this up? Did I pick this up because I knew I had to interview the person, which is work, or did I pick it up because I was curious about it, which is fun.
- [14:26]
Greta Johnson
Yeah.
- [14:26]
MJ Franklin
Can I say one more? I feel like I want to know your answer too. But the other thing I would just want to say is about reading as an editor is also tricky because I am constantly trying to remove myself from the reading process because as an assigning editor, it's not necessarily my job to say I loved this book. It's my job to look into it and say, is there something here that someone else will dig into? And so even if it's a book that I love and I've given to a reviewer, I never want to say that out loud to that reviewer because I don't want to influence their feelings about the book. So I don't totally get rid of my own opinion. Like, I'm guided by my own taste. But work reading is reading that is guided by another set of principles than just like, am I into it? Do I like it? And like, that shapes inevitably how you do the reading.
- [15:15]
Greta Johnson
Yeah.
- [15:15]
Tracy Thomas
So interesting.
- [15:16]
Greta Johnson
It's fascinating. That's wild.
- [15:19]
Tracy Thomas
Okay, Greta, how many books and how do you track if you do and if you did, how many were from this year?
- [15:26]
Greta Johnson
So I just counted this morning because I had a feeling you were going to ask me. I'm at 86. I track them in this little book that I've been using since 2013. So it's just like lists and lists and lists and lists and lists of books.
- [15:40]
Tracy Thomas
Oh, my gosh, Greta, take a picture of that so I can post that on social media. So people. Because this is an audio, I will.
- [15:47]
Greta Johnson
It's literally just title and author and it's by month. But it's pretty cool to be able to. I mean, especially over 10 years now, it's fun to, like, just open it up and like, I can place myself like, oh, I remember the apartment I lived in. Or like, I remember the walk I was on when I was listening to that. It's really lovely. Probably I should count out the vast majority of my reading these days is audiobooks, but I still do some printed stuff as well. And I think I only read one book from not 2024 this year, and it was Dune.
- [16:16]
MJ Franklin
Oh, wow.
- [16:17]
Tracy Thomas
Wow.
- [16:18]
Greta Johnson
Yeah.
- [16:18]
Tracy Thomas
That's incredible.
- [16:19]
Greta Johnson
Yeah, I. I'm pretty sure I'd have to double check that, but I'm pretty confident they were all.
- [16:24]
Tracy Thomas
Do you mostly read books in the year that they come out? So, like, in 2025, is there anything from this year that you're hoping to still get to, or are you moved on?
- [16:34]
Greta Johnson
That's a great question. I mean, there are still a couple from this year that I want to try and get in. Like, Help Wanted is one that I just, like, haven't read yet. But it has been buzzy enough that it's like, I would like to get to that. But, yeah, I don't know. I mean, I'm already also reading something that does come out next year, so I do sort of think. I think it's called Hot Air.
- [16:54]
Tracy Thomas
That's one of the books I told. I told MJ about this book. Okay. If this book blows up. If this book blows up, I want credit because it's a fiction book I discovered, and I never, ever do that.
- [17:03]
MJ Franklin
Yeah. Tracy recommended it to me. I then read it over Thanksgiving. I want to talk to you about this book.
- [17:08]
Greta Johnson
Great. Okay, great. It's funny because I just have such little actual reading time and I'm reading it in print and so I'm like moving my way very slowly through it. But I find it very charming and kind of off putting at the same time. It's a really interesting one.
- [17:22]
Tracy Thomas
Okay, I'm reading it next. I'm currently reading a 2025 book, and then I'm going to pick that up next. Okay. I'm so excited because I can't have you two all. If this book pops. I cannot have you two taking cred for this book because I found this book. Okay.
- [17:34]
Greta Johnson
I invented this book, Tracy.
- [17:39]
Tracy Thomas
So, yeah, okay.
- [17:40]
Greta Johnson
I have started a little, and I think I will sort of turn the page with the new year. But it also depends, like, what's coming out in January and February, you know, Like, I do think that's part of it, too, is like those often even December, I think is like a pretty slow publishing month in terms of new releases. So it's a great opportunity to kind of try and catch up on stuff that I may have missed through the year. And I imagine I'll do that for a couple more months, especially with audio, since those books are already out, you know?
- [18:04]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [18:05]
MJ Franklin
Can I ask a question, Greta? Which is how is it just like, oh, we're in the next year and I'm onto the next thing? Or is like a discipline, like, the year is done? Even if I'm not excited about stuff in 2025, I cannot go back to 2024. Like, how. How does that line of you have to read the books in the year that they came out? How strict is that?
- [18:26]
Greta Johnson
That's a really good question. I mean, it used to be maybe more strict when I was, you know, working on Nerdette and Like, trying to do author interviews regularly with folks who had books out and were doing press tours for them. These days, you know, I'm still doing a book club through my substack Gretagram, but I'm. I am my own boss at this moment in time, which means I'm gonna do whatever the fuck I want. Right? Because that's the gift I can give myself. So, yeah, if I.
- [18:56]
MJ Franklin
Happy holidays.
- [18:59]
Greta Johnson
So, you know, and, mj, I don't know if you were like. We had a conversation years ago where you were like, don't read a book you don't like. You know? And, like, I think you said something about aspiring to read less the following year. And that's something that I've thought a lot about over the several years since then, too, where it's like, I. I'm trying to be much more rigorous about, like, if this book isn't working for me, I don't have to. No one is telling me I need to read it. There really is no obligation. So I think, especially given my current employment situation is, like, I'm gonna read for fun, and I'm gonna, like. So if there's a 2025 book that looks fun and interesting, which there are several, I'm very excited about that. But otherwise, like, yeah, I'm not gonna hold myself to the year I am currently in. No, I love it.
- [19:40]
Tracy Thomas
Okay. For the sake of transparency, I have read 131 books so far this year.
- [19:47]
Greta Johnson
Oh, my God. You're cruising.
- [19:49]
Tracy Thomas
Four of them are from 2024, which is 64% of my reading has been 2024 books. I am still finishing up a few 2024 books on audio that were on the New York Times 10 best books, the nonfiction side, because I want to hate that list, but I want to make sure that I read everything from it so that I can really hate it. I'm a rigorous hater.
- [20:11]
MJ Franklin
That is the energy that I want to bring to all things. And we're all book nerds. Like, doing the homework is very important to all of us.
- [20:18]
Tracy Thomas
It's so important. And because the truth is. And I've said this to you before, and I think we talked about this last year, and I think I said it to Gilbert to his face. It was like, I genuinely love the New York Times lists. Not because I agree with you all most of the time, but because I think that they're exciting and fun. And so reading this. This 10 books at the End of the year list is, to me, my favorite of any book list, award list, anything even Though most of the time I disagree vehemently with at least two of the nonfiction picks. So it is a joy for me. And I've never actually been a full completist of the list before the year was out. So I have, I'm. I'm doing Wide Wide the Wide Wide Sea currently and I am bored out of my mind. Mj, I know you told me that the people who were on the nonfiction side said that it was just kept delivering. So I'm giving it a chance. I'm only two hours in, I got 13 to go and then I'm gonna go to the 975 hour biography of Reagan. And that will probably be my last 2024 read. Might be the last read of my life. I don't know that I'm gonna survive. That could be it, seven years of Reagan. But I'm gonna try. I will DNF both of them if I don't like them, but I'm gonna try. So. So I should probably end with about 862024 reads if I'm able to finish. So we'll see.
- [21:38]
MJ Franklin
How do you have time for 130 books in a year? Especially as like you're, you're working so much and like the depth that you read these books into and you're covering them, how do you have the time?
- [21:52]
Tracy Thomas
I. That's such a great question. So I definitely audiobook a lot and.
- [21:55]
Greta Johnson
You'Re like 1.25 ing, I assume I'm.
- [21:58]
Tracy Thomas
Like 1.5 to 1 7.
- [22:00]
Greta Johnson
Oh, there it is. There it is.
- [22:01]
Tracy Thomas
And going fast. Well, to me that's how people talk. I don't talk at a 1, I talk at at least a 1.5. I think I probably if I'm excited, I talk at a 175. So for me it's the only way I can hear it. Like. And then I read at night and I read in the morning and sometimes if I'm on deadline, I don't do my other work and I read in the middle of the day. I don't know. And I mean also like I read all sorts of kinds of books. So sometimes that means I'm reading a cookbook or something for work or I'm like, so it's not all just like straight novels or straight non fiction though I think the percentage, I think I read two cookbooks this year. So it's not like. Or like I think I read like three poetry, you know, like sometimes poetry, sometimes other things that are smaller that sort of fill out and some months I Read a lot. And some months I read very little. So it just sort of depends. But, but that I'm actually down from last year, which is sort of lovely. And I, and I continue. I'm hoping to continue a downward trend.
- [22:57]
Greta Johnson
I think that aspiring to a downward trend is really, really lovely.
- [23:02]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, every year I set my goal the same. It's 100 at this point. Because that feels like, yeah, that feels like responsible with the workload. But every year I go over a hundred. I'm like, you failed too many.
- [23:14]
MJ Franklin
The downward spiral, downward trend. Read less is not about, like, get rid of the books, burn the book. It's like quality over quantity.
- [23:21]
Tracy Thomas
Right?
- [23:22]
MJ Franklin
Like, I want to read the book and I want to read everything about the author and I want to read the reviews. And that's all stuff that, like, shapes how you experience a book but doesn't necessarily go onto your list. And so I want, I want the quality time.
- [23:34]
Tracy Thomas
Yes, I do too.
- [23:35]
Greta Johnson
Yes.
- [23:36]
Tracy Thomas
Okay, this is the last question before we take a break and then get to the actual list, which is what did both of you make of 2024 as a year in books overall? What was your experience? Was it a good year? Was it a bad year? Were there trends that you felt like really popped to you? Was there anything that felt uniquely 2024 as far as books and reading life go?
- [23:59]
Greta Johnson
That's a really good question, mj. I'm very curious, especially around trends, what your read is on that. I thought it was a great year for books. I thought it was phenomenal. I thought it started beautifully, too. It's interesting looking at this list I brought of some of my favorites because I think all of them but one I read in the first four months of the year. I thought it just started beautifully and just kind of kept going. What do you think, mj?
- [24:24]
MJ Franklin
I completely agree. I thought that this year, yeah, January just had so. January, February, so many great books that really set the tone for the year and raised the bar. And the year kept delivering. I heard a theory that that was especially for fiction because of the election. No one wanted to publish giant books around the election because everyone assumed our attention would be elsewhere. So I think that front loaded the year, but also again, the year just kept delivering. So for me, it was such a triumphant year in books and I think a surprising one, both that it was front loaded. But for me, that's the word that I use to describe 2024 in literature. I who would have thought that one of the buzziest books, the book that won the National Book Award, would Be a retelling of Huck Finn or looking at the National Book Award list. How many of those were debuts? One of them, Ghost Roots, one of the finalists. That's a debut short story horror collection. Right. Like, that is a surprising place to have captured the public imagination because we think of especially genres being niche, not necessarily for a bad reason, but, like, those are very specific communities. And so that was surprising to me. We got some really big returns from heavy hitters. Alan Hollinghurst had a new book this year. Again, Percival Everett had a book, but then also really delightful, surprising and really assured debuts. So for me, surprising is the word that comes to mind.
- [25:54]
Tracy Thomas
Okay, guys, no surprise to you. I disagree. I thought this was sort of a disappointing year in books.
- [26:00]
MJ Franklin
Interest, Thomas Moore.
- [26:02]
Tracy Thomas
So I agree. The year started off really strong. All of my favorite books except for one. Well, the ones I'm going to talk about today came out in the first half of the year. And I just felt like there were some really, really strong books early in the year and nothing quite lived up to it for me, especially on the fiction side. On the nonfiction side, I think that the year sort of picked up a little bit later and did get better. But a lot of my favorite nonfiction was really sleepy. Got like, nobody not sleepy. Like, the book was sleepy, but like, it got slept on. People were not talking about the books that I thought were the most exciting and good. And so I felt like this was sort of a challenging year. Like, it felt like there was consensus around books this year in a way that I've never experienced, which is surprising to your point. Mj I think. But I think it left. It left me feeling like a lot of the year was less exciting than I wanted because everyone sort of agreed, which is actually what I'm interested about when we get to our book is that I'm worried that we are going to agree about too many books on the list.
- [27:05]
MJ Franklin
Can I ask a question of what are some books maybe that aren't necessarily on this list but were really buzzing? Notable nonfiction books that published later in the year that got slept on. What are those books that you want.
- [27:16]
Tracy Thomas
Wished got more So I think there was an essay collection. Well, I don't know if it was a buzzy book, but I thought it was really good. So, like, I think, Greta, you and I both read this and loved it. Which is how to Tell When We Will Die by Johanna Hedva, a book about disability pain. Oh, okay. Well, I won't say more then. It's also on my list. I have a feeling it's on one of my lists. I have a. I have a main list, and then I have a list to fill in in case you guys steal mine. So, like, that was a book. I thought the Ayanna Johnson book. What if we get this right? Was so fantastic. I thought that book was gonna be huge. I. I'm so shocked. I thought that, like, I thought the Barn by Wright Thompson was so fantastic. And I have seen it on some lists, but I don't think he got enough due for what he did. Another book that I loved that I thought didn't get enough attention was the Other Olympians, about transgender Olympic athletes in the 1936 Olympics. It was so on time. It was so good. So good. And I think people. Nobody talked about it. I probably didn't talk about it enough, to be honest. But so I do. I do think there were a lot of. There's a lot of, like, hidden nonfiction this year versus some really big nonfiction books, one of which I totally despise, which was Knife. I thought Knife was so mid to bad and got so much like. I just feel like he sucked up all the nonfiction attention in the room. So, yeah, that sort of my answer. Okay, we're gonna take a break. We're gonna come back with our 10 best books of the year. Running a business means wearing a lot of hats, but Shopify helps you focus on what really matters. Selling your product and growing your brand. Whether you're starting a small side hustle or scaling up, Shopify makes it easy to manage everything in one place. It's the platform I use for all of the stacks merch, and it has turned what could have been a total logistical nightmare into something that is seamless, runs smoothly, and I basically never think about. What I love most about Shopify is how intuitive it is. Analytics, payments, inventory, marketing. It's all ready to go, and it's all in one place. And with tools like Shop Pay, which boosts boosts conversions by up to 50%, Shopify ensures every sale counts. It's like having an extra set of hands to handle the details so you can stay focused on creating and connecting with your customers. Upgrade your business and get the same checkout we use with Shopify. Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.com the stacks, all lowercase, go to shopify.com the stacks to upgrade your selling today. Shopify.com thestack hey, y'all. I wanted to take a little more time to tell you about what's going on on the stacks Pack Patreon. This is the time of year that I encourage folks to join because there are some awesome, awesome perks. First and foremost, you get everything. You get all year long, bonus episodes, access to the Discord community which is alive and well. You get to join our monthly virtual book clubs where we talk about whatever our book club pick has been for the previous month. Month plus there's some other seasonal perks you have access to if you join. Now we have a reading tracker that goes out in December and you can only access it from December to January so you must sign up now so that you get it when it drops. We also have the Stackies, which are the Stacks Pack exclusive literary awards. Only members of the Stacks Pack and subscribers to the newsletter can vote on which books are the best books of the year. And lastly, we have a mega challenge. That is A list of 52 reading prompts to shake up your reading life and that is exclusive to the Stacks Pack. So if you love this podcast, if you want to support the work that I do, if you want to make it possible for me to continue doing this work, go to patreon.com the stacks and join the Stacks Pack. And now you're able to gift a subscription to the Stacks Pack to the other readers in your Life. Head to patreon.com the stacks. Find all the information there and I really hope that you'll become part of this amazing community.
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MJ Franklin
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Greta Johnson
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Tracy Thomas
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MJ Franklin
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- [31:49]
Tracy Thomas
All right, I'm back with MJ Franklin and Greta Johnson. We're going to do our 10 best books of the year. How we do it every time is I call on you, you give me one book, you tell us a little bit about it and we move on. If one of the books that someone calls is on your list, just cross it off. You can say this is on my list too and then pick one of your backup picks. Mj, why don't you start us off?
- [32:09]
MJ Franklin
I wanted to start with probably a divisive one. Who knows it's All Fours by Miranda July.
- [32:16]
Greta Johnson
Ooh. Yes.
- [32:18]
Tracy Thomas
I was hoping this wasn't gonna be on our list, but. Okay. Okay.
- [32:21]
MJ Franklin
Starting off strong, then starting off strong.
- [32:22]
Greta Johnson
No, this is great.
- [32:23]
MJ Franklin
I think this book is one of the most remarkable books I published this year in terms of. I guess, to start with synopsis, it is about interdisciplinary artist who is very similar to Mirinda July herself, but this character is unnamed. And at the start of the book, she decides to go on a road trip to New York after a conversation about parkers and drivers and what type of person she is. And she has all this time off. And so she has booked this, like, two and a half week vacation in New York and she's decided that she's gonna drive there rather than fly. And she makes it just outside of her town. And instead of actually continuing the journey, she holes up at Holst Motel and then decides to, like, completely renovate it. I think she has like a $20,000 budget using royalties that she got after a commercial use part of her art or something. And so the book is divided into three sections. The first section is what is going on with the renovation of this hotel room. She starts this friendship with the interior designer who's making up this motel room. I keep saying hotel, but it's motel. So that's the first part, the motel. The second part, she starts an affair with a mechanic named Davey who dreams of being a dancer.
- [33:36]
Tracy Thomas
Oh, my gosh.
- [33:37]
MJ Franklin
And the third section, a lot is happening. And the third section is what happens when she goes home. She goes back to her life.
- [33:45]
Tracy Thomas
Is any of this spoilers?
- [33:47]
Greta Johnson
Yeah, most of it, kind of. But also. I don't know. I mean, you would. It's probably a lot of that is on the back of the book.
- [33:54]
MJ Franklin
Yeah, I don't think, because so much happens into it and it's split into these parts. I don't think they're spoilers because so much happens in between. These are just kind of like the plot anchors.
- [34:06]
Greta Johnson
Yeah, plot anchors. That's a good way of putting it.
- [34:08]
MJ Franklin
But I will get us out of plot territory to avoid spoilers and just say the reason why I liked it is because Miranda July has this ability to be absolutely zany and whimsical while also being deeply earnest. I don't think I knew at any point where we were going next in this story. And yet there is such a human pathos to everything that this character is experiencing. She's just doing things and the approach is just askew. So this book, for me was so thoughtful, but also Destabilizing. It has this illicit thrill to it because it is explicit, it is steamy there. It's graphic. I'm now just synonyms for graphic, which it extremely is. And it was one of those books that I just had so much fun reading while also being. I found it also so thought provoking at the same time. So that was one of. That was one of my favorite books. And I don't think I'm alone. It was like one of the biggest books of this summer. It was also shortlisted for the National Book Award for me.
- [35:22]
Tracy Thomas
It was on yalls top 10. It's been on almost every. It's. It's one of the most, again, one of the sort of consensus books of the year. Greta, did you read it?
- [35:30]
Greta Johnson
I read it. When I. When you invited me on the show to talk Best of, I was like, okay, I'm gonna read all fours.
- [35:36]
Tracy Thomas
Oh, so you just read it?
- [35:37]
Greta Johnson
I just read it. I listened to the audiobook. Miranda July narrates it, which is incredible. I kind of hated reading it, but I found it to be such an uncomfortable experience. She made so many choices that I just did not agree with.
- [35:55]
Tracy Thomas
The character made choices. You didn't agree with Miranda July made choices.
- [35:58]
Greta Johnson
The character made choices. However, to MJ's point, Miranda July is so weird and so exquisitely herself. And the earnestness and weirdness that comes through is a palette that I really admire and adore. So I think this is one that I was just deeply conflicted about, but there is a lot I admire about it for sure.
- [36:23]
Tracy Thomas
What I will say about this book that I have not read and I hopefully will not read because I know I won't like this. Like, I don't have. I don't have to go here to. But what's been interesting about this book is we do an awards at the stacks called the Stackies, and this book is up for best book. We didn't cover on the podcast as well as most hated book.
- [36:41]
Greta Johnson
Yes.
- [36:41]
Tracy Thomas
And I think that speaks to this. That tracks aggressively so that people love it or hate it. And I have yet to find, like, people who. Who don't understand the other side either. Like, people who hate it are like, I get it. Everybody loves it. It was the worst. And people who love it are like, it was weird. I loved it. I understand why you hate it. So I feel like it's like there's consensus on that too.
- [37:03]
Greta Johnson
Yeah.
- [37:04]
Tracy Thomas
Okay, Greta, you're next. What's your pick?
- [37:06]
Greta Johnson
Oh, my gosh. Okay, so I just want to say this was all Very difficult. And I have a weird list that I sort of culled down and here we are. I think though, that my favorite of the year is Beautyland by Marie Helene Bertino, which Tracy, you asked us to also like, write up little for your website of like, favorites. And I mentioned Beautyland there too. Yeah, I thought this was just a phenomenal book. It kind of goes against what I was saying earlier where I guess there is a bit of something is afoot, but it's not hella plotty. Like I remember recommending it to my mom and she read it and she was like, greta, this isn't like, not a lot is. This is much closer to like girl walking through the woods thinking about things than you normally like. But this one just landed so perfectly for me. It's about a girl who was born, I think it's in 1977, right as the Voyager spacecraft takes off. And it turns out she's actually like a alien who gets activated when she is, I think seven. And her task is to like report back to humanity to her home planet via fax machine because 1980s and it's just, you know, I got to talk to Marie Helene Bertino for Nerdette and she talked about how like she was really trying to embrace like the. The profound mundane. And this is a book that I just think is so beautiful on a sentence level. She is an outsider in this world in a way that I think like any teenage girl could also relate to because how awkward and terrible is it to be a teenage girl? Like, there are just so many things about what it means to be human that Marie is able to convey through this lens of being an alien that is just like so exquisitely gorgeous and beautiful. And I just loved it so much. Mj, did you read it?
- [38:57]
MJ Franklin
I read half of it and this is on my to finish Squeeze in this month list. I thought you might recommend this. I remember how much you loved it. I listened to the episode and it was such a fun book club. And one trend that I'm seeing, not necessarily specifically in this year, but I feel like modern history. The trend is Aliens, Beauty Land Earthlings, which has one of the most unhinged endings that I'm still. My jaw is still dropped at Walking Practice by Dol Ki Min Kori FA does social mobility. And then also there's at least one book about a girl who is or may or may not be an alien that's coming out next year. Aliens are everywhere. The trend is aliens.
- [39:42]
Tracy Thomas
Interesting. I love that I have not read this either. It Comes very highly recommended from people in the stacks pack who read it. They loved it. It's sort of another. It's another book we didn't cover on the show. Most beloved, not in the most hated category. Okay, I will go next, and I will continue on the outer space theme with a book that I love with my whole heart. I have been screaming about it all year. It is Challenger by Adam Higginbotham. It's about the Challenger disaster. This book is exactly what I look for in a book when done well. This is the exact kind of nonfiction I love. It's giving me history. It's giving me major capitalism failure, major government agency failure. It is giving me pulling on my heartstrings, meeting people who will unfortunately die. It is giving me cover up. It is giving me research detail. And the thing that this book does that is so hard to do and only the greats can do in film, television, books, whatever, but you've got to be an outstanding storyteller is we know where this story ends. And still, when we get to the part where the. Where the wheels are falling off, where we know you can't believe it's gonna happen. I get to the end of this book and I'm just like, there's no way they launch on January 28th. It's not possible. No, it's not. We know that they cannot launch because we know about the O rings. We know about the weather. There's no way. And then they do the countdown and they launch. And this book is just. I mean, so many people who have read it have been like, my stomach hurt as I was reading those sections because you're sitting there being like, don't do it. Don't do it. And it's just. It's really hard, I think, to pull that off. And Adam Higginbotham, he understands how to write about a disaster in a way that is so compelling. So this is my baby Tracy.
- [41:38]
MJ Franklin
I mentioned last year that I feel like there are books that I just. They're your books, like, I just associate with you. Challenger is one of them. My question is, though, he also wrote Chernobyl.
- [41:48]
Tracy Thomas
The author, Chernobyl, Midnight in Chernobyl.
- [41:50]
MJ Franklin
Would you recommend one to start? One or the other? How do they compare?
- [41:55]
Tracy Thomas
I have not read Midnight in Chernobyl. I plan to read it next year. I saw the show and I just was like, oh, I don't need to read it. The show is based off of his book. But I will go back. I will go back and read it next year. He came on this podcast and we talked. And one of the things that was funny is both of his books are set in 1986, because that's when both the disasters happened.
- [42:18]
MJ Franklin
Wow.
- [42:19]
Tracy Thomas
And so I told him, In July of 1986, I was born. So if you like to write about me, like, another human disaster, a failure of. But, yeah, I mean, I think that I. I'm curious to see what he does next, if he just becomes, like, 1986 guy, or if he. If he branches out. But I don't think it matters which one you read first. Or if it does. I guess start with Challenger, because that's what I did. But I don't think it matters.
- [42:48]
MJ Franklin
I'm gonna start with Challenger after this recommendation.
- [42:51]
Greta Johnson
Yeah. Yep, totally.
- [42:52]
Tracy Thomas
So good. Okay, Greta, you get to go next.
- [42:55]
Greta Johnson
Yep. It's how to Tell When We Will Die on Pain, Disability, and Doom, which is a pretty ominous subtitle. It's by Johanna Hedva and Tracy. I know you really love this one too, so I'd be curious what you think of it. I thought I. Gosh, I have so many feelings about this one. I think even just for me personally, as I get older, it's. It's been really helpful to learn more about disability and also just to recognize in my own life the inevitability of, like, people getting sick and how to be able to talk about that and to not just brush over terrible things that are happening in our lives and, like, actually sit with them and register them and realize that there's, like, another side of the health coin and we're all going to experience that, and if we can actually address it for ourselves and for other people with some grace, like, that is like, literally all we can do and will only make our lives better. And that's what I think this book captures really beautifully. It's not necessarily an easy read. It can be pretty intense, but I found it just very necessary. And also, there is one sentence in it that will live in my head forever. And it is, do not speak to me of self care unless you also speak to me of revenge. And, like, this is the energy I want to bring into the world all the time. So, yeah, that's why I love that book.
- [44:20]
Tracy Thomas
I. I think what's so interesting is you've touched on part of what I love about the book, but the other thing I love about the book, which is in that sentence is Johanna Hedva is funny as hell. Yes, they are constantly. They are not doing the thing, which is like, oh, woe is me. Disability. They are doing the thing that's like, bitch, buckle up.
- [44:39]
Greta Johnson
Yes. Yeah.
- [44:40]
Tracy Thomas
You want to talk about disability? Let's talk about poop. Let's talk about mucus. Let's talk about the funny, icky stuff. And I think I've described this book as sort of second generation disability writing in the same way that like sort of first generation immigrant stories are like, I came to America or I left my home and went. And it sort of details what that is. And I feel like the second generation stories are sort of like, this is where I came from, here's how I feel about it. Or like, here's how that informs how I see the rest of the world instead of being only the story. Like. And I think that's not a knock on other writing. It's more that that's how these stories are, you know, most palatable. First we have to be taught everything and then we get to have an opinion about it. And I think that what I love about this book is Johanna Hedwa has a my opinion. It's like there is no chance you will read their work and think, huh, I wonder what they think about.
- [45:42]
Greta Johnson
Yes.
- [45:43]
Tracy Thomas
I wonder what that felt like.
- [45:44]
Greta Johnson
Totally. Totally.
- [45:45]
Tracy Thomas
It's just so. The way that disability and pain and all of these things color the whole world.
- [45:51]
Greta Johnson
Yes.
- [45:52]
Tracy Thomas
In this book is just outstanding.
- [45:55]
Greta Johnson
I'm also, I'm also really grateful for their use of the phrase healthcare industrial complex. That's when I thought about out a lot.
- [46:01]
Tracy Thomas
That's exactly right. Yeah. This highly recommend.
- [46:04]
Greta Johnson
Yeah.
- [46:04]
Tracy Thomas
Okay, mj, what's next for you?
- [46:07]
MJ Franklin
Next for me is a book called the Coin by Yasmin Sahir.
- [46:12]
Tracy Thomas
Oh, okay.
- [46:13]
MJ Franklin
Tracy's shocked face is this expected, Unexpected, hated. Loved.
- [46:18]
Tracy Thomas
I DNF'd this, but it was a weird experience. I was reading it and as I was reading it, I was liking it. But then every time it was time to pick up a book to read, I never wanted to go back to my book. So I was like, oh. So I like, I thought it was quirky and weird. It feels like you. And it also has maybe the best cover of the year.
- [46:36]
Greta Johnson
Yes. An outstanding book.
- [46:37]
MJ Franklin
So good. So what's the best?
- [46:39]
Tracy Thomas
Why do you love it?
- [46:40]
MJ Franklin
It is about a Palestinian woman in New York. And I think this is. Tracy, you've said that you love for fiction stories of unhinged women doing unhinged things. This is an unhinged women doing unhinged things school of literature. This woman is in New York and she is up to shenanigans. So she is a teacher at a private school. And she teaches mostly underprivileged students, but she quickly goes off script and is just, like, doing, quote, unquote, unstructured free time. She's pseudo spying on each student's families by having the students write these journals and, like, they're writing these weird confessions that she should probably report stuff to, but she won't. So that's going on in the school, and you're like, you should not be anywhere near children. She also is kind of dating this, like, very rich, pseudo Russian oligarch. And she's kind of dating him, I say, because she does not like this man, but this man really likes her. And he is the only anchor that she has in New York. And so she's like, he wanted to date. And so I guess we're kind of dating. But then she starts also pseudo cheating on him with a homeless person that she sees in her neighborhood and that she recognizes because she throws out a coat and then the man picks up the coat and she sees him everywhere. She starts this, like, weird, ish relationship with him, and he actually gets her to join a scheme where they are scalping Birkin bags. And I think she says that she is taking her taste and giving these expensive bags to unclassy people because, like, it's very hard to buy a Birkin. And there are all of these, like, rules of when they're available and who they'll give them to or who can. Who has the privilege of buying them. So this is a lot of plot. Why I love this book is because it is one of those debuts. This is a debut, and it's shocking to me because it is so sharp and well crafted. And I never knew what people meant when they said this word, but reading this book made me realize when they say a book is assured, her voice is, like, crystal clear. You get the sense that she's not just like another crazy metaphor that I have. When storytelling is like. There's the feeling that sometimes a book is just trying to get the story out there, squeezing the story out of the toothpaste bottle. And there's another sense that, like, they're taking. Someone is taking that. And just, like, crafting it, it's not just squeezing it out. It is, like, so immaculately rendered. The sentences are so funny. The writer, the character. And Yasmin Sahir is sharp, acerbic, knowing, thought provoking. You cringe. Because, again, this character should not be doing any of the things that she's doing. But you can't put it down. Maybe once you do put it down. Then you're like, it's too painful. I don't want to go back to it. But for me, it was just a debut that completely took me by surprise. And I was shocked by how. I was shocked that it was a debut based on how meticulous and well crafted it is.
- [49:48]
Tracy Thomas
Okay. I have to say, I did DNF it, but I was liking it. It's not. It was a weird experience because I liked it, but I just never wanted to return to it. But then when I would, I would read like 20 pages and look up and be like, oh, my God, I just read 20 pages. So I agree with everything you've said about it. Okay. Oh, my gosh. I don't know where to go next either. I'm gonna go with my fate. I'm gonna stay on the trend of women behaving badly, making bad choices. I'm going with my queen, Danzy Senna.
- [50:19]
Greta Johnson
There it is.
- [50:20]
Tracy Thomas
I love this book. I know people have problems with the choices Dancy's characters make, but you know what? It makes for great fiction. This is the story of Jane. She is a pseudo professor. I guess she's a professor, but I think she's not tenure anyway.
- [50:40]
Greta Johnson
She's an adjunct or something.
- [50:42]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, she's like an adjunct professor working on her second book, which is the quote unquote, mulatto War and Peace. She's struggling turns in the book, not a hit according to her agent and or editor. And she decides, I'm gonna sell out. I'm gonna work in Hollywood. She works for a black Hollywood executive who is trying to make the great mulatto television show. Jane herself is a great mulatto. She's married to a artist, Lenny, who just wants to make art that won't sell. Jane's obsessed with money. Jane's obsessed with mulatto. Have I mentioned this? And Jane is house sitting for her mulatto director friend who makes blockbuster movies and he's in Australia or something and they're house sitting with her kids and they're drinking his fancy wine. She's wearing his wife's fancy clothes. Jane makes bad decisions. Is anybody getting this yet from this story? It's a blast. It's a romp. I think there is not a person writing smarter about what it means to be mixed in America than Danzy Senna. I think there are other people who are. Who are close by. Special shout out to Come and Get it by Kiley Reid, which I thought does a lot of what this book does. And they're sort of wedged together in my brain. But I just love. I love Dansie's sensibilities. I love her jokes. I love her bullshit. I just love everything she puts on the page. I just. She understands that. I described this book when I finished it as a thriller without death or kidnapping.
- [52:28]
Greta Johnson
I mean, it's kind of like you're like, yes, brace the tension.
- [52:31]
Tracy Thomas
That stakes. You're like, what the fuck is gonna happen? Something is afoot. Okay. But it's like, the stakes are green smoothie at a Hollywood, like, executive meeting.
- [52:44]
MJ Franklin
Well, she is so good at revealing just, like, how everyday, ordinary life is weird and surreal. And she pokes fun of so much that should be made fun of. You said the word sensibility, and I think, like. And Danzy's sensibility is unparalleled. I also want to say your sensibility is unparalleled. I love your interview with her, Tracy. And you spoke. One thing that I learned in the interview, and you spoke so much about it, is why she says mulatto rather than biracial. That was such an interesting discussion. Sorry. To piggyback your recommendation with me recommending you.
- [53:18]
Tracy Thomas
Love it. We'll put a link to that episode in the show notes, folks, if you haven't heard, go ahead and listen to it. Go ahead and listen. Listen to. Well, we're gonna link to everything in the show notes, but I'll put. Make that one really big.
- [53:27]
Greta Johnson
I will say, though, Tracy, like, I actually think the stakes in this book are really high. And, like, I don't know, Like, I don't think Jane is obsessed with money. I think one of the things that worked really well for me about colored television is that Jane makes a series of, like, incredibly unhinged and, like, problematic decisions. But you always know that it's because she is in such an economically precarious place, and she's just trying to find.
- [53:53]
Tracy Thomas
Security and comfortable with money. She is obsessed with money because. Because of her predicament, sure, because of the place she's in. But, like, her motivation and her focus is, how will I get the money to do what I.
- [54:05]
Greta Johnson
That's true. I guess the distinction that I am making is that, like, she doesn't. It's not like she wants to be rich for the sake of being rich. It's not like she's trying to be famous. Like, I read this in tandem with Ruman Alam's book Entitlement this year, which I really did not like at all. And I think a really big reason for that was because it's similar in that, like a character's also. She works for a billionaire and so she's like trying to figure out what she can get out of him essentially throughout the book. But you never get a sense, like her motivations aren't there. And then it just feels really empty and kind of awful in a way that it actually didn't with Jane because it was like, no, she's worried about her kids and like, they need a place to live, you know.
- [54:49]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally.
- [54:50]
MJ Franklin
The other element too, the other stakes is, and this is why I loved it too, is the sense of artistic fulfillment. Right. She. One does not write the mulatto War and Peace for purely financial gains. Like, she is someone who's trying to see the world and share how she sees the world with other people. She's an artist and she's living with an artist that makes these non commercial esoteric paintings. And so she's surrounded by art in various forms. And so there's an artist story here as well. And the fact that we all three had different understandings of the stakes, I think speaks to how layered this book is.
- [55:30]
Greta Johnson
Yeah, it is.
- [55:31]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. I think this book didn't get nearly enough love. Again, a second half book that I thought sort of was. I think it got a lot of love. I don't want to say, like, it's on a lot of lists and things, but to me, I thought this book was. It was my. It was my favorite read of the year. It might not be the best book I read this year, though. I would argue my taste is so impeccable. What I think is my favorite is the best. But that's a different episode. But yes, I just. I adore this book. I adore Danzy Senna. I knew people that main character Maria lives rent free in my head. I think about Maria at least once a week. I can't say more, but I love her.
- [56:10]
MJ Franklin
Talk about cutting. Maria has some one liners. I still think about a one liner that she says about like a land of racial harmony, like her boyfriend is asking for. And she's like, we tried that. It's Brazil. And it didn't work. Like, there are lines in that book that I still think about.
- [56:28]
Tracy Thomas
Yes, I'm obsessed. Okay, Greta. Yes, do it.
- [56:34]
Greta Johnson
I am going to recommend, speaking of debuts, the Ministry of Time by Kellyanne Brown.
- [56:40]
Tracy Thomas
Oh, I wow.
- [56:42]
Greta Johnson
Thought this was an outstanding debut and I thought it was marketed poorly. Like Outlander was one of the biggest comparisons that people were making to this book. And it is time travel Y and there is a hot dude from the past. But this is, like. It gets pretty violent and is. I would call it sci fi. It's like, I don't think it's a romance at all, actually. And it's timey wimey. The guy, the hot dude from the past is a. I mean, you know, they would have called him, like, an explorer, and he's based on someone in real history. But the thing that I think this book does really beautifully is it explores colonialism, really, and, like, the history of, like, are you an intrepid, like, person who's out there in a really, like, bold, interesting way, or are you actually just, like, figuring out how to oppress a lot of people? And it was just really, really good and plotty and interesting. And there was, like, a twist at the end that I didn't see coming. And I just really enjoyed this one a lot.
- [57:50]
Tracy Thomas
I've heard so many mixed things about this.
- [57:52]
Greta Johnson
Have you?
- [57:52]
Tracy Thomas
So I'm very. I've. Very polarizing.
- [57:55]
Greta Johnson
Yeah. I think, like, I think it's a great debut. I think there are things about it that didn't totally work, but I think there's some really interesting elements, and I think it's totally worth reading.
- [58:05]
MJ Franklin
For what it's worth, I was just writing down some of the words you used to describe it because I've heard. I have. I've been struggling with how to place this book. I've heard people talk, talking about it, but I'm like, what is this book about? And so I was, like, leaning in, writing down your descriptions, and you're not a romance, but I assume that because you have to clarify that there are romantic elements to it.
- [58:24]
Tracy Thomas
Sure.
- [58:25]
MJ Franklin
Sci fi, time travel, colonialism.
- [58:28]
Greta Johnson
Yes.
- [58:28]
MJ Franklin
So much is happening here.
- [58:29]
Greta Johnson
Yes, a lot. Yes. There are a lot of really interesting elements. Yeah, I think it's. I thought it was great, and I think it's one of those where, like, I don't think it got enough accolades for. For what it is. So I thought this would be a great opportunity to shout it out. I figured it wouldn't be on yalls list, so I. No, I brought it.
- [58:47]
Tracy Thomas
It's definitely not on mine. Okay, mj, I think we have a.
- [58:51]
MJ Franklin
Shared one, and I am just gonna jump in. And that is martyr.
- [58:55]
Tracy Thomas
Okay, good. I was nervous none of us was gonna say it. Okay. Okay. Okay, cool.
- [59:00]
Greta Johnson
I did not put it on my list because I knew between the two of you, we would get to yell.
- [59:03]
MJ Franklin
About how wonderful it is.
- [59:04]
Tracy Thomas
Okay.
- [59:05]
MJ Franklin
Okay, then should we do a shared, like, description of this? Because 1 I feel like I've described this many times in various. I can never capture it.
- [59:13]
Tracy Thomas
I can never capture.
- [59:15]
Greta Johnson
You can't. That's the thing about Martyr, right?
- [59:17]
MJ Franklin
Let's tag team it. Let's tag team it and like we'll all fill in the blanks. This is why we're a band. This is why we're.
- [59:23]
Tracy Thomas
This is great but Christian, leave this in. This is funny. Leave this in. Don't cut this. Okay, you pick. Martar you start. No spoilers. Keep it as tight as possible.
- [59:39]
MJ Franklin
I'll try to get.
- [59:39]
Tracy Thomas
Because I feel like some of the joy of this book is not really knowing what's going to happen and where it's going to go. I don't want to give away too much.
- [59:46]
Greta Johnson
I hear you.
- [59:47]
MJ Franklin
Part of the reason why I also hesitant to start off describing it is because I also described it for the book review podcast and I started off that one and I don't want to repeat.
- [59:57]
Tracy Thomas
Do you want me to start? Okay, I'll start. I will start describing this. You guys can fill it in. This is a book about Cyrus, who's Iranian born, moves to the United States at 2 years old to the Midwest to the mid.
- [60:07]
Greta Johnson
I think it's a very important specification.
- [60:09]
Tracy Thomas
He moves to the Midwest with his father. His mother has died in a shooting down of an airplane that was a passenger plane by the United States in an act of war that was considered an accident, an oopsie daisies by the United States, but killed hundreds of people, including children. Cyrus is obsessed with this idea of what his mother died for, which is how we sort of get to his idea of. Right. He wants to write about martyrs and become one himself. So he has this preoccupation that is sort of the general premise of the book. If you read the flap cover, which I don't recommend, there is more information about where this book goes but I don't think. I don't think you need it.
- [60:53]
MJ Franklin
I think that's a perfect description and I think it gets at for me personally, I'm curious what everyone else thinks and why they love it too. But the reason why I love this book is you just fall in love with the voice. That voice is hurt but searching. That voice is a little bit. That voice is struggling. And I left this book feeling like I will read a million other books about specifically Osiris. I will read a million books by Kaveh Akbar. He's a poet and so you get the. There's a poet's flair that is alive and well in this book. And I'm speaking very vaguely because again, I don't want to spoil anything, but in addition to the polite's voice, this book is just stuffed with interesting facts and phenomenon and pop culture things.
- [61:48]
Tracy Thomas
Pop culture things, characters. I forgot one piece of the story that I do think is important that is not plot, but is about Cyrus. He is also in recovery from addiction.
- [61:58]
Greta Johnson
I'm glad you mentioned that.
- [61:58]
Tracy Thomas
And yeah. Because that is important to his sort of headspace and that is where the book starts. I think the first section is about him struggling and recovery related things like reflecting on that. So that is important to the book.
- [62:13]
Greta Johnson
Well, and I think too, I mean, I think it's worth noting that the title has an exclamation point in it which is just like, you know, in terms of registering vibes, like, yes, it is about martyrhood, but like there's an exclamation point here. And I think also, Tracy, you said that he's trying to figure out what is worth martyring yourself for. I think the other side of that that is also very present and very beautiful in this book is what is worth living for. How do you make a life that is worth. How do you earn living when so many people don't even get that opportunity? How do you do what you can with the life you have? Which I think is also really gorgeous and just so vibrant and urgent in this story.
- [62:54]
Tracy Thomas
Yes. And to plug Greta, we. The three of us talked about Marta earlier this year on Nerdette and. And I think one of the things that I love about this book is I'm such a critical person. I can always find a knit to pick with a piece of work. And I found plenty of knits in Martyr. And yet still, when someone says it, when I think about it, my hand immediately goes to my chest. I rub my chest as I feel so warmly about Cyrus, about Cyrus's uncle who's a character, about Kaveh Akbar, about the color yellow on the like, it just this book, despite things that I would change, there's nothing I would change about this book because it gets to the feels and it's so unique in that way that there can be things that I, a monster, don't like and still just. Just devour and love and think so fondly of of this book.
- [63:49]
Greta Johnson
Yep.
- [63:49]
Tracy Thomas
Okay, we did it. Martyr. Okay, Martyr's on the list. Thank God. I was getting nervous.
- [63:54]
Greta Johnson
I was like, we're really holding our cards close. I feel like with this.
- [63:57]
Tracy Thomas
Okay, well, I think this is my last pick. And then I think we agree on the 10th one, I'm pretty sure. So I will do my third pick, which is a memoir. Again, another book that did not get enough attention, according to me. Another Word for Love by Carvel Wallace. This, to me, was far and away the memoir of the year, as far as I'm concerned. It is about Carvel Wallace. It's a memoir. The first section is about their boyhood as a black kid growing up with a mom who is struggling to maintain housing with addiction, all sorts of things. He's in and out with his aunt and uncle who there's some abuse happening there. It's really a struggling, trauma filled childhood, I think is how you would present the first part. Part two, we'll skip over because I don't. It doesn't really help my narrative of the book. It's about. It's about God. It's very small. It's like notes on God. It's very small. And then part three is all about healing, possibility, what to make of trauma. What is possible to make of trauma. And the writing is so beautiful. I thought it was funny. I read the book before it came out and then as it started coming out, I started seeing reviews. People kept saying, carvel Wallace, poet and author. And I think at one point Carvel's like, I appreciate this so much. I'm actually not a poet. But the writing feels that way. The writing feels so beautiful and poetic that you're like, of course this is a poem. I mean, for people who love Ksay Lehman, for people who love Hanif Abdurraqib. It is in conversation with both heavy and every single word that Hanif has ever written. It has that sort of earnestness and that purity. There's sex in this book too. There's a lot of exploration. There's a section about apology that I think about regularly that is so beautiful. But it's one of those books where it sort of starts off as a quote unquote, typical trauma memoir. And you're just like, oh, tough life, poor kid. And then it becomes this whole other thing about like, well, what do we make of this? What can we make of. Of a world? What is another word for love? And it is just so moving and so beautiful and, and earnest again. Earnest for sure.
- [66:15]
MJ Franklin
That's another trend that I'm seeing this year. I feel like there's a lot of earnestness in this year's literature. A lot of self searching, a lot of personal reckoning. I love it. That's. Yes, that's in the MJ school of literary fiction where Nothing happens. But you're just with the character for a long time. This has been a good year for me.
- [66:34]
Greta Johnson
Yes. It's.
- [66:35]
Tracy Thomas
I feel like this. I feel like earnestness is in. Is like so in right now. I had the pleasure of doing Hanif's book event here in la, and I think that I referred to him as our great Ernest King, and everyone in the audience laughed so hard because he is. I mean, between him and Kaveh, they are the dueling. Like, they're the two.
- [66:55]
Greta Johnson
Earnestness cracked it open for you. You're welcome. Feast on it with me. Yeah.
- [67:00]
Tracy Thomas
And they're, like, best friends, and I'm, like, obsessed with their friendship and their earnestness. That whole group of poets is just Clint Smith. It's just all these earnest men just writing poems about fatherhood and music. It's very precious. Okay, this brings us to our 10th pick. I'm assuming we're all on the same page here. We can just say it on the count of three.
- [67:20]
Greta Johnson
Oh, good. I was hoping you would do that.
- [67:22]
Tracy Thomas
Here we go. One, two, three.
- [67:24]
Greta Johnson
James.
- [67:26]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. Who wants to do it? Greta, you want to set this one up?
- [67:29]
Greta Johnson
Oh, my gosh, sure. Well, I mean, MJ kind of did earlier, but essentially it's a retelling of Huck Finn. You do not need to have read Huck Finn recently. I think that's an important specification.
- [67:39]
Tracy Thomas
I've never read it.
- [67:40]
Greta Johnson
I think I read some of it in high school. This is, however, an inversion of Huck Finn's story because this is told from the point of view of Jim, also known as James, who is the enslaved person who goes on adventures with Huck in the original Mark Twain book. Book. There is, I think it's fair to say, a certain audacity to being like, oh, yeah, Mark Twain. Like that classic, like, canonical American literature. I'm gonna fuck with that a little bit. And Percival does it so exquisitely. This is such a smart book. There are so many different layers to unpack. It's also. He spares no single word. I mean, this isn't a super long book, but it is just. And it's so exciting to see something, I think, in the year 2024 and be like, oh, canon. Like, we can just add it to the shelf. And it's just there, and there's no question about it. And it's so beautiful and brilliant and smart and heartfelt. Like just all the things.
- [68:41]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [68:42]
MJ Franklin
One of the things that impresses me the most about this book is how it taps into an existing work and reshapes our existing cultural narratives while also still standing on its own as its own unique, original, all star work of literature. I think that's a really hard thing to do, to tap into, to retell something and make your own voice and sensibility rise above and outside of that existing property. Especially something as like, core to the American canon as Huck Finn. He set himself up, no small task, and he really takes a huge swing and knocks out of the park. And I don't know why I'm doing the sports metaphor. Cause I'm not a sports person.
- [69:32]
Greta Johnson
I love it.
- [69:32]
Tracy Thomas
I love it. You're doing great.
- [69:34]
Greta Johnson
You're doing great.
- [69:35]
MJ Franklin
I think it's remarkable. And I think it also feels like this career capstone for Percival Evans. Who knows how many books he has left in him. I hope many, many, many.
- [69:46]
Tracy Thomas
Probably a lot. Cause he at least has 30 years, so he's probably got another 30 books.
- [69:50]
MJ Franklin
Exactly. But he's been writing so many books that have gone under the radar and people are coming to them more and more now, especially because of American fiction. So to see someone get their flowers and watch the, like, energy and excitement around this book coalesce in real time throughout this year has been remarkable.
- [70:10]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, I think one of the things I love about this book is that I was sort of intimidated going in because I had not read Huck Finn. And I. I started it and I got two pages in and I was like, babe, if I start this, it's the only book I read all year. There's no way I'm not doing it. And I think, like, when a book is really beloved and like, acclaimed, people can be worried that it's gonna be hard or challenging to read, difficult to get through because it's like critically acclaimed. So it must be a lot. This book is so accessible. And I mean that not in a pejorative way, but in a. Like, you pick it up, you read it in a day, it goes down so smooth. It's cold water in the desert. Right. It's just like, I want it, I need it. Fill me up. It is funny. Like Percival Everett. It is so. I mean, the thing about Percival Everett and Danzy Sena, who are husband and wife and that I love about both of them is that they are never precious with their characters. Both of them are sort of mean to their characters, which I love. Like, they have such a strong point of view as. As the authorial voice that comes out because they make their characters do shit and they make their characters where you're just like, dancy hates dansey hates Jane as much as I do. Right. Or like. And I feel like that comes out in this book. And then also, the other thing I love, and I will not say any details. I will not spoil a thing. This book starts in one place, and when you get to the ending and you close the book, I literally was like, this is a different book, but in the best possible way. Like, how we got here makes total sense. But where I started is not where I am at the ending. And that is really hard to do, especially in 200 and whatever pages, especially with a story we already know and a character we're already somewhat familiar with.
- [71:52]
MJ Franklin
Yeah, there is a. Please bear with me as I form this thought now, but I have this taxonomy in my head of books that show, like, beautifully. They show a reckoning, they show an experience, et cetera, et cetera. They capture a moment. And books that. That push in terms of, like, pushing a cultural script, pushing the bounds of what we think of as books. I think this book starts off as a book that shows. It's a book that shows the other side of Huck Finn that we haven't seen. It's a book that shows the humanity of James in a way that we haven't seen. And by the end, it's a book that has pushed. It's pushed cultural scripts. It's very cerebral. It is pushed our notions of philosophy. It is pushed. Yeah, I don't want to say more, but I think. I think that's a part of the. That's a taxonomy I'm forming now, and I think that it's captured in this book.
- [72:47]
Tracy Thomas
I love that. Okay, that is our list. That's a really good list. I'm really proud of us. Way to go, everybody. We're gonna. We are, like, out of time, but we're gonna wrap up quickly. We're gonna quickly just. We're not gonna do what we normally do, which is, like, predictions for 2025 reading. I don't know. Stuff's gonna happen. We're gonna be wrong. But I do want you to each share maybe two books you're very excited about for 2025. We'll take hot Air off the table, since that's a book that I invented in both of my books. Tracy Thomas, Hot Air by Marcy. Whatever. As told to you by Tracy Thomas. This published by Tracy Thomas Books, Inc. If you need a copy, come to my house. I'm the only one who can distribute my book.
- [73:36]
Greta Johnson
Marcy's gonna be like, what the.
- [73:38]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, she's gonna hate this. I Don't know Marcy. I'm sorry to Marcy in advance. I hope I like the book because if I don't, this will be the last you hear of it. Also, mj, do you want to start with. With, do you want to just give us two books you're excited about? You don't. We don't take turns.
- [73:53]
MJ Franklin
I'll start with I have one, which is Stag Dance by Torrey Peters.
- [73:58]
Tracy Thomas
Oh, yeah.
- [73:58]
MJ Franklin
Torrey Peters is the author of Detransition Baby, which is one of my all time favorites. I know next to nothing about Stag Dance other than that it's coming out and I will read anything that Torrey Peters writes. So that's one book that I'm excited.
- [74:13]
Tracy Thomas
About that was on our list for best books the year that it came out. Detransition Baby.
- [74:18]
MJ Franklin
Oh, yeah, that book is.
- [74:19]
Tracy Thomas
I think that was the book we all agreed on. Actually that year I think there were three of us and we all agreed on that one. Even me. A novel. I loved it.
- [74:27]
MJ Franklin
The Stax packs is giving taste. It's giving taste. That's the one that I wanted to mention.
- [74:35]
Tracy Thomas
What about you, Greta?
- [74:36]
Greta Johnson
I have three, but I'll be really quick about them because all of them are like, I know very little about them, but I'm really excited just because they're authors I admire. The first one is Nnedi Okorafor's newest book, Death of the Author, that comes out in January. And then the other two are new novels from Karen Russell and Kevin Wilson. Karen Russell wrote Swamplandia many years ago and has written a couple other, I think mostly short story collections since then. And it's just like so weird and vibrant and wonderful. And Kevin Wilson's book is called Run for the Hills. It comes out in May and I'm pretty sure it's like a cross country road trip novel. But like, Kevin Wilson is just one of my all time favorite authors forever. So I am just like so excited. I already have a galley of it, but I'm saving it because I'm like too excited. I can't read it yet because it's a gift and you'll have nothing eventually. Yeah, exactly.
- [75:29]
Tracy Thomas
So, yeah, just like MJ said that there's books he associates with me. Kevin Wilson is an author I associate with you, Greta.
- [75:35]
Greta Johnson
I'm honored. That's amazing.
- [75:37]
Tracy Thomas
You are the Kevin Wilson.
- [75:38]
Greta Johnson
That's so beautiful.
- [75:38]
Tracy Thomas
Kevin Wilson, girly.
- [75:39]
Greta Johnson
In my life.
- [75:41]
Tracy Thomas
I obviously have too many books that I'm excited about. I will just plug. I wrote a list of Most anticipated books. I think my list had, like, 41 books. Usually it has, like, 30. Wow. I like. I'm really.
- [75:51]
Greta Johnson
So you're excited for 2025. That's great.
- [75:54]
Tracy Thomas
I'm not even that excited. I think that. I don't know. I feel like I'm. I don't have. Usually I go into the year being like, this is what I'm like, last year I was like, I'm excited about James. This is what I'm excited about. This year, I'm going into 2025. Like, there's lots of things, and I could be excited about any of that. Like, I don't have a strong, though. Now I have to be all in on Hot Air because I've made it my personality.
- [76:15]
Greta Johnson
I wonder if you're gonna hate it. I'm so.
- [76:17]
Tracy Thomas
I can't wait. I probably am. I'm probably never gonna talk about it again. So obviously, Imani Perry has a new book coming, Black in Blues, which I'm excited about, but I don't want to talk about that because everybody already knows I love her, so I'm gonna skip that. There is a book from critic Andrea Long Chu called Authority coming out. It's a collection of essays about who has the authority to talk about culture. And Chu is known for mean, nasty reviews. That piece about Hanayanagihara, that was Andrea Longchu. If you guys think I'm mean, get ready. So good. So I'm thrilled for Cult Mean Cultural Criticism to come out. I will say this. Kaveh Akbar blurbed Authority, and he posted about it, and I DM'd him. I was like, I'm so excited about this. And he said, actually, you sort of remind me of Andrea Alongchu. And I was like, like, highest compliment. Also, what in it?
- [77:13]
Greta Johnson
What?
- [77:13]
Tracy Thomas
Coming from an earnest king like you, I feel like I should feel bad.
- [77:18]
Greta Johnson
No, I think, no, we need that energy going into next year more than ever.
- [77:21]
Tracy Thomas
That's. Yes. Don't talk to me about care if you're not gonna talk to me about.
- [77:26]
Greta Johnson
Let's fucking go.
- [77:28]
Tracy Thomas
And then the other. I'm gonna put these two together. There's a book called Disposable by Sarah Jones, and then a book called There Is no Place for Us by Brian Goldstone. Brian Goldstone is about the working. His book is about the working homeless. And then Disposable is about people who were sort of, like, thrown away in the reckoning with COVID Disabled people, people who were considered like. What was that word we use? What was the word we use for people who had to work, essential workers.
- [77:55]
Greta Johnson
Oh, sure.
- [77:56]
Tracy Thomas
But I think all of these books are sort of about capitalism and the failure of the safe social safety net and all of these things. And they both look like sort of in the school of maybe Evicted a Visible Child where they're following certain families who have dealt with this, which is another kind of non fiction kink for me. And I think that is going to be a trend for the year, which is going to be about social safety net books. I think we're going to see a lot of books that deal with the failures of since 2020 that are actually really good because they've had time to sort of marinate. So those are, those are mine. I have, I have way more on this list that I'm cutting because we're over time, but I know I'm panicking.
- [78:32]
Greta Johnson
That I didn't get to mention, mention Rufy Thorpe mentioned Margo's got money troubles. Oh, I have that on my list too. Did you? Oh man.
- [78:40]
Tracy Thomas
I actually thought it would be on the list. I started it because I thought it would be on the list. And then I moved to my 2025 book, but I liked it. I just, I don't know that I needed. I. I read 30 pages and I'm just like, oh, this goes on for more pages.
- [78:57]
Greta Johnson
I think, I think you would end up liking it. It's interesting because it ends up being a novel about the failure of sorts social safety nets in a lot of ways. Right. Because it's about a young mother who's like, cannot figure out how she can take care of her baby and also work and all of the things. And so she ends up starting an.
- [79:12]
MJ Franklin
OnlyFans account that is also a book where something is afoot. She is thinking, thinking, thinking through this kind of whimsical maximalist plot.
- [79:22]
Greta Johnson
Yes.
- [79:23]
Tracy Thomas
Stop making me want to read 2024 books. I need to move on.
- [79:26]
Greta Johnson
Well, the only other thing I will say, the only other thing I will say about it is that the audiobook is narrated by Elle Fanning, who also is going to star as Margo in the Apple TV adaptation. And if you are not enticed enough by that, the father, who's this like pro wrestler guy named Jinx, will be played by Nick Offerman. So Margot's father, if you are curious, Margot's father. So not the father of the baby, so. No, no, correct.
- [79:51]
MJ Franklin
Margot's father.
- [79:52]
Greta Johnson
Thank you.
- [79:53]
Tracy Thomas
So, yeah, who's gonna play the father of the baby? The teacher?
- [79:56]
Greta Johnson
I don't know. I haven't seen a full Cast. I don't know if I feel like.
- [79:59]
Tracy Thomas
Adam Scott has to do. Oh, my God. This big Adam Scott energy. And.
- [80:03]
Greta Johnson
Yeah, who knows? You never know with an adaptation if it'll even happen, but my fingers are crossed. It would be so much fun. Sorry, mj. What were you going to say?
- [80:10]
MJ Franklin
I was going to say that character of the father of the baby, the professor, is such a particularly awful type of smarmy, like, powerful and pathetic at the same time that casting has to be spot on.
- [80:25]
Greta Johnson
But, yeah.
- [80:26]
Tracy Thomas
Okay. This is not technically in our top 10. You guys, stop trying to. Stop trying to make it an 11. We did it. We did 10. I don't want to bump 11. 11 is so unattractive to me. I'm sorry. I am a. I am a top 10 purist ones in a row. But we will. But we'll link to this book in the show notes for those of you who want that fake 11th pick. But it is. It's not real. It's not official. Unless you want to throw out something that you already put on.
- [80:51]
Greta Johnson
I mean, I would throw up Ministry of Time, but it's okay. That's just my own panic happening.
- [80:55]
Tracy Thomas
Wow. I can't believe you put Ministry of Time on over Margot. I'm now realizing this.
- [81:01]
Greta Johnson
I pay. I did. I thought we'd have more time, Tracy.
- [81:04]
Tracy Thomas
Okay, well, this is how this happens. You guys want to know how lists get made? The fallibility of list? This is exactly what happened. Take it to Greta, though, because I stand by my.
- [81:13]
Greta Johnson
That's fine.
- [81:14]
Tracy Thomas
That's fine, everybody. Thank you both for being here. I think we've actually cemented that moving forward, it will be the three of.
- [81:22]
Greta Johnson
Us doing this every year. I would love this.
- [81:23]
Tracy Thomas
I've been tossing around different people, but I think this is it. This is it.
- [81:27]
Greta Johnson
I love. I feel like we, like, overlap really nicely, but then also branch off really nicely. Like, I think it's, you know, like, this is a great. Like, someone is going to find something they love on this list, which is wonderful.
- [81:36]
Tracy Thomas
And if they don't, you're in the wrong place, babe. You're reading the wrong books.
- [81:41]
MJ Franklin
This is a group that believes in revenge, remember?
- [81:43]
Tracy Thomas
Yes. Strongly. That is our energy we're taking into next year. Not only do we believe in it, that's our aspiration, is to get deeper into it. Thank you both so much for being here and everyone else, we will see you in the stacks. All right, y'all, that does it for us. Thank you so much for listening, and thank you again to Greta Johnson and MJ Franklin for joining the show. Do not forget the Stacks Book Club pick for December is tacky by Rax King. We will be discussing the book on Wednesday, December 25th with Nora McInerney. If you love the show and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com the stacks and join the Stacks Pack. You can check out my substack@tracy thomas.substack.com and you can gift either of those to the book lovers in your life. Make sure you're subscribed to the Stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts, and if you're listening through Apple Podcasts or Spotify, be sure to leave us a rating and a review. For more from the Stacks, follow us on social media at the Stacks Pod, on Instagram threads and Tick Tock and you can check out our website@thestacks podcast.com this episode of the Stacks was edited by Christian Duenas with production assistance from Megan Caballero. Our graphic Designer is Robin McRite and our theme music is from Tagirigis. The Stax is created and produced by me, Tracy Thomas.