Ep. 351 Tacky by Rax King — The Stacks Book Club (Nora McInerny)

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Stacks Episode 351 – "Tacky" by Rax King with Nora McInerney

Host: Traci Thomas
Guest: Nora McInerney
Release Date: December 25, 2024
Book Discussed: Tacky Love Letters to the Worst Culture We Have to Offer by Rax King

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1. Introduction and Overview

In episode 351 of The Stacks, host Traci Thomas welcomes author and fellow podcaster Nora McInerney to discuss the book club pick, Tacky Love Letters to the Worst Culture We Have to Offer by Rax King. The episode delves into King's exploration of pop culture deemed "tacky," blending memoir with cultural criticism to examine how seemingly shallow interests shape personal identity and societal norms.

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2. Defining 'Tacky' and 'Trashy'

Traci and Nora begin by unpacking King's definition of "tacky." According to King, as highlighted at [10:39], "Tackiness is joyfulness. To be proudly tacky, your aperture for all the too much feelings, angst, desire, joy must be all the way open. You've got to be so much more ready to feel everything than anyone probably wants to be. It's a brutal way to live." This definition positions tackiness not merely as a superficial aesthetic but as an expression of unabashed emotional openness.

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3. Personal Reflections on Tacky Culture

The conversation shifts to personal anecdotes about tacky cultural elements. Traci shares a poignant memory related to the scent "warm vanilla sugar," recalling how it was tied to a high school crush and now connects her to her children's experiences at school ([08:32]-[09:01]). Nora echoes this sentiment, expressing a fondness for maximalism and shiny objects, which she associates with personal joy rather than societal judgment ([13:35]-[14:56]).

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4. Gender and Cultural Gatekeeping

A significant portion of the discussion addresses the gendered aspects of what is considered tacky. Both hosts critique the gatekeeping inherent in cultural criticism, where tastes traditionally associated with women—like certain fragrances or pop culture interests—are often dismissed or devalued. Nora remarks, "They are the only people who have to defend just the things that we like for the sake of liking them." ([45:00]-[45:30])

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5. The Attachment to Tacky Things and Nostalgia

Traci and Nora explore how tacky items often hold nostalgic value, serving as portals to one's past and formative experiences. For instance, Traci reminisces about dance costumes and glitter from her childhood, tying these memories to her current appreciation for their expressive value ([14:56]-[16:04]). Nora adds that such attachments are crucial for self-development and belonging ([29:16]-[30:07]).

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6. Critical Analysis and Essays in the Book

The hosts delve into specific essays from King's book, highlighting their strengths and shortcomings. Traci appreciates the Jersey Shore essay for its heartfelt depiction of her father-daughter relationship, noting how it intertwines cultural critique with personal loss ([52:22]-[53:03]). Conversely, both express disappointment with essays that veered into memoir territory, such as discussions about abusive relationships, which they felt detracted from the intended cultural commentary ([05:06]-[07:18]).

Nora highlights the critique of mainstream media, particularly praising the Hot Topic essay for capturing the essence of specific subcultures and their significance ([24:22]-[28:56]).

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7. Emotional Connections and Memoir Elements

The conversation touches on the emotional depth introduced through memoir elements in the book. Traci shares how reading about King's relationship with her abusive husband during Thanksgiving intensified her own feelings of loss and connection ([50:03]-[52:22]). Nora acknowledges the challenge of balancing memoir with essay-style cultural criticism, admitting that her own writing often grapples with maintaining thematic focus ([59:13]-[60:43]).

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8. Upcoming Works and Final Thoughts

Towards the end of the episode, Traci announces Rax King's upcoming book, Sloppy, set for release in July 2025. The subtitle, Doing It All Wrong, suggests a continued exploration of personal flaws and cultural habits with King's trademark humor and honesty ([60:25]-[61:57]). Both hosts express excitement for the new material and discuss their anticipation for its themes, particularly regarding sobriety and self-improvement.

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Notable Quotes

• Rax King on Tackiness: "Tackiness is joyfulness. To be proudly tacky, your aperture for all the too much feelings, angst, desire, joy must be all the way open." ([10:39])

• Traci on Tacky Nostalgia: "I do love the nostalgia of my childhood. I love all the old stuff I do still love." ([15:52])

• Nora on Cultural Gatekeeping: "They are the only people who have to defend just the things that we like for the sake of liking them." ([45:00])

• Traci on Good vs. Perfect: "Good work commands respect, even if it isn't to your personal taste. Not so with perfect." ([47:57]-[49:45])

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Conclusions

The episode offers a rich exploration of what it means to embrace tacky culture, advocating for a more inclusive and joyful understanding of personal tastes. Traci and Nora challenge societal gatekeeping, emphasizing the importance of celebrating diverse interests without shame. Through their candid discussion, listeners are encouraged to reflect on their own perceptions of tackiness and its role in shaping cultural identity.

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Next Episode Preview:
Stay tuned for the January book club pick, The Ministry of Time by Calie Ann Bradley, a debut novel blending science fiction, historical fiction, and romance. Join the discussion on Wednesday, January 29th.

Join the Community:
Support The Stacks by joining the Stacks Pack on Patreon patreon.com/the stacks, and subscribe to the newsletter on substack.com/tracythomas for exclusive content and updates.

Transcript

[Tracy Thomas]

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[Nora McInerney]

Oh, it's so good to see you.

[Tracy Thomas]

So good.

[Nora McInerney]

So good to see you.

[Tracy Thomas]

Today we're talking about Tacky Love Letters to the Worst Culture we have to Offer by Rax King. This is an essay collection, allegedly about tacky things. We will technically spoil this book, but it's nonfiction, so there's not really spoilers. But if you want to read it, pause, come back. Okay. We always start here. Generally. What did you think of the book?

[Nora McInerney]

I. Okay, so this is a thing about me that I think I mentioned the last episode. I never know what a book is about before I read it, so I literally am always judging a book by its cover. I love tacky things. I love a defense of the shallow as something that is actually deep. I. I consider myself a deeply shallow person. And I just. I. Yeah, I like deep dives into things that people easily dismiss. And I don't believe in guilty pleasures. I think that is something that has been perpetuated only on women. Right. Only we have to feel guilty about, like, the things that we like or consume. I was not expecting a memoir. And that's what this is. This is a memoir. It's a memoir in essays. It's a memoir in essays. So, yeah, it's not as much about the things, but about the way that these tacky things have shaped the author.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, that's exactly right.

[Nora McInerney]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

So that was basically my takeaway. I. All I knew about the book was what it said on the COVID and I think I maybe read a great cover. Great. The font on tacky. So good. The colors, the whole thing, just obsessed. I thought we were gonna get cultural criticism on tacky shit, which was exactly what I wanted.

[Nora McInerney]

Same this.

[Tracy Thomas]

We got an essay and memoir. Memoir and essays. It was not what I wanted. However, I do think what she wrote was good. Writing, like, her essays were good. And if I had known that I was getting sort of like my. My road to an abusive marriage, I think I would have felt. I think I would have really liked this book. But I kept being like, okay, here we go, Cheesecake Factory. And then being like, oh, hey, you're on a date date. You're on a date.

[Nora McInerney]

You're 19 and he's 30 and. Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, exactly. So I think, like, what I thought I was getting, I did not get enough of. And what I did get, I thought was good, but it was not what I wanted because I thought I was getting more on brown bread. I didn't get enough on brown bread.

[Nora McInerney]

I didn't get enough on brown bread. I didn't get enough on mall culture. Yes.

[Tracy Thomas]

That one was disappointing.

[Nora McInerney]

Yeah. Or. Or warm vanilla sugar, too. Yeah. Which I think if we. If we want to get into that, like, the hierarchy of balancing whatever scent you liked from Bath and Body works with your hierarchy in the. The friend group.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Nora McInerney]

You know?

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes.

[Nora McInerney]

Only one girl can be vanilla sugar. Who gets warm vanilla sugar. It wasn't me. I wanted it so bad. I had it. Couldn't wear it to school, though, because it was. That scent belonged to someone Else.

[Tracy Thomas]

There was a guy that I liked in high school and he. He wore it.

[Nora McInerney]

Okay.

[Tracy Thomas]

It was like his thing. It was like his thing.

[Nora McInerney]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

And because it used to be seasonal, I don't know if it still is, but it used to only come out at the holidays.

[Nora McInerney]

And he would, like, hoard it small. Smart. Smart. That's.

[Tracy Thomas]

Wear it all the time. So when I was reading that essay, I was like, oh, my God, I know this smell.

[Nora McInerney]

I know that smell. I love that smell. I could, I could. I would know that smell anywhere, and it would take me back.

[Tracy Thomas]

It still exists. My kids. School. Yeah, my kids are in elementary school, but it is connected to a middle school. And the other day, I was walking my kids into school after reading the essay, and I said, warm vanilla sugar. And there was like this little 12 year old girl with her little backpack, a little seventh grader or whatever. And I was like, mm, mm, mm. There she is. Ms. Thing. Ms. Warm Vanilla Sugar.

[Nora McInerney]

I'm gonna get bullied. And I. And I'm gonna deserve.

[Tracy Thomas]

I was like, kids, head down.

[Nora McInerney]

Keep down, head down. Don't look at her. Don't look. Okay? This girl is an alpha and we know that. I actually think it's really smart if you are a straight boy to wear a girl's scent. I think that's. That's kind of like a secret way to, like, lure girls in. And I say that as a person who used to wear men's cologne because I got it for free at a beauty launch and men were obsessed with me when I wore cologne.

[Tracy Thomas]

I wear men's deodorant.

[Nora McInerney]

Yes.

[Tracy Thomas]

I'm sweating.

[Nora McInerney]

Me too. Old Spice.

[Tracy Thomas]

Me too.

[Nora McInerney]

Yeah, I love it.

[Tracy Thomas]

And then my husband, like, oh, do you have any deodorant? I'm like, I do, but it's not what you wear. It's my deodorant. He's like, but it's men's Yoda. I'm like, well, but it is my.

[Nora McInerney]

It's my signature scent.

[Tracy Thomas]

It's my scent. It's swagger.

[Nora McInerney]

And that's very clearly me. Okay.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, my God. No, I mean, that essay. I was like, waiting.

[Nora McInerney]

Yes.

[Tracy Thomas]

Waiting for. I just wanted the cultural criticism so badly. But I think where I. I want to ask you, since you love tacky things and. And that kind of thing. Because, like, she starts the. The first intro essay is fantastic. Where she sort of lays out what the plan is. I do not think she achieves the plan, but she talks about, like, she just. Well, let me read it. Here's her def like what tacky is, she says, as far as I'm concerned, tackiness is joyfulness. To be proudly tacky. Your aperture, for all the too much feelings, angst, desire, joy must be all the way open. You've got to be so much more ready to feel everything than anyone probably wants to be. It's a brutal way to live.

[Nora McInerney]

I highlighted the same thing.

[Tracy Thomas]

I love it. I, I, I just, I love it. I mean, she has other things about what, what's tacky? But I'm wondering for you, like, going into the book, what did you think? What were you think, like, what is tacky to you? What is the epitome of tacky in your mind?

[Nora McInerney]

I think tacky is such a tacky. Like, any kind of taste is so subjective, too.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Nora McInerney]

And I don't know, I always think of it as something that someone I wouldn't like, wouldn't like. I don't like snobby people. I don't like people who think they're, like, too good for something.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Nora McInerney]

And I was raised by snobs, by the way. And I just remember being like, what if we just went to Disney World and you let me decide if it's right, right. If it's, if it's cool or not, you know?

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Nora McInerney]

Like, what about that? But I think anything that's, like, too flashy or too earnest, you know, so wearing, like, you know, when you're in the, the airport in Las Vegas or really any Western state, and there'll be like, a whole store with just bejeweled hats, and it just looks like Ed Hardy and True Religion Meta Bedazzler, you know? And it's like, that is just such an earnest way of dressing. It's like, I love this, right? Like, I love this. I love the, the cross so much. I need it bedazzled on a hat that also says sexy. Okay. Because those are things that I identify with. And.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Nora McInerney]

So, yeah, it's like tacky's like, one of those things that you know it when you see it, but really what you're seeing is, I guess, like, your own snobbishness, if that makes any sense.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. Right. Because it only triggers tacky once it reaches your level of tacky. So, like, you might think something is tacky that I don't or vice versa, but, like, once it hits the threshold, you're like, tacky, tacky.

[Nora McInerney]

Tacky. Yeah. Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay.

[Nora McInerney]

When really it's like, it's like tacky behavior to me is so different than, like, tacky things. And so like, tacky behavior is like telling somebody how much something cost, right?

[Tracy Thomas]

Or like not tipping a lot.

[Nora McInerney]

Not tipping. Not tipping is tacky. Right? It's like, yeah, it's. It's like a turkey behavior is like cheap. Cheap. Yeah, cheapness.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, yeah, cheapness.

[Nora McInerney]

Or like sort of like a kind of rude meanness to it.

[Tracy Thomas]

But I think tacky things are also have a cheapness to them.

[Nora McInerney]

Yeah, yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

They might not be not expensive, but they look not expensive. They feel like it. It feels. To wear a bejeweled cross hat that says sexy is very much the opposite of wearing a Chanel hat.

[Nora McInerney]

Right.

[Tracy Thomas]

Like, it's like that. Even if they cost the same, one looks cheap and one looks rich, Whatever.

[Nora McInerney]

Is the opposite of quiet luxury.

[Tracy Thomas]

That's tacky.

[Nora McInerney]

Tacky, you know, is tacky. And I am like, I do like tacky things. I think, you know, even as a kid, I just like gravitated towards like maximalism, shiny things, magpie behavior, you know, those little formed crystal figures that you can get at gift shops. And it's like vaguely looks like a swan and you're like, you're into all of that.

[Tracy Thomas]

That's so I. I like tacky. But I think that I learned to like tacky in college as a joke, you know, like in. I mean, I went to nyu. It's very. Yeah, I'm a theater per. It's very, very ironic to be tacky in that way, but authentic child me and still adult me. Glitter. Yeah, A sequin. I. If I. If it sparkles, if it's a glitter, if it's a sequin, if there's a rhinestone. But I was also a dancer, so those costumes, like, when I watch Dancing with the Stars, I'm like, babe, that. That tail on your gown is working when you do the cha cha cha.

[Nora McInerney]

And I want it and I don't know where I'm gonna wear it, but like, yes.

[Tracy Thomas]

So that the, the like tackiness of like a costume or like that I love. But I, I think my threshold for tacky in life is very like. Of tacky things in life is very low. Like those stores at the, at the airport. I'm instantly like, I can't even get candy here. Like, I can't walk in there. I'm disgusted and revolted. But I don't like, I don't really wear bright colors. Like, I'm not. I struggle with that thing. But tacky culture, I love like a chain restaurant obsessed Spice Girls sign me up. Like, the music, the nostalgia. Tacky of my childhood. I love. I don't know that if I could think of, like, a tacky cultural moment now if I love it. But all the old stuff I do still love.

[Nora McInerney]

Yeah, it's hard to think of something now. It's almost like it has to be retroactively applied or something has to be, like, passe to get that title put on it.

[Tracy Thomas]

But can something be tacky in the moment?

[Nora McInerney]

Yeah, Because I didn't know, and I still am sometimes shocked. I grew up in Minneapolis, and then I went to school in Ohio, and there were major differences. Like, in 2001, Target wasn't in Ohio. I was like, what are you talking about? All right, I gotta go to where in Ohio? Cincinnati. I was like, meijer, I'm going to. I don't know what that is. I don't know what Meijer is, but I didn't know. I believed things to be exclusive to Minneapolis that were absolutely chain restaurants. And I believed things to be exclusive to Cincinnati, Ohio that turned out later to be chain restaurants. And, like, what didn't you, Like, I showed up to this school that was like, east coast adjacent, right? Ohio, very close, very cuspy on east coast time. I didn't know, like, I didn't know what anything was. Like, I was so Midwest of you.

[Tracy Thomas]

To say that Ohio is Midwest is east coast adjacent. Because I'm a coastal person and I'm like, Ohio is properly center of the.

[Nora McInerney]

Heart of it all, but it's on the east coast time. It's like, it's over there. It's definitely over to the right. And. And if you're facing the map above it, right, that's to the right. And like, I would wear, like, this is like the height of like, JLo Beauty. So, like, I was wearing. I didn't know I was wearing knockoff Chanel glasses when I wore, like the pink lensed glasses with the crystal heart on them with a matching pink glitter belt and matching pink pumas. I didn't know. I didn't know.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, I had a pink velour jumpsuit.

[Nora McInerney]

Of course I was too tall.

[Tracy Thomas]

That's what I wore when I moved into college door.

[Nora McInerney]

I would have seen you and I would have been like, I want to.

[Tracy Thomas]

Be smells like warm vanilla.

[Nora McInerney]

I would have said, that girl could bully me and I want her to. Okay?

[Tracy Thomas]

And I probably would have.

[Nora McInerney]

And I would have said, do it, do it. I also think I'm a loser. I didn't know. I didn't know, like, what any of these things were. So, like, My. I think I almost like these things as, like a defense of, like, my past selves too. Right?

[Tracy Thomas]

Like you now, you know, you're like, I finally figured it out.

[Nora McInerney]

I finally figured it out. Or when you're in college and, you know, a boy wants to show you a movie and you're like, okay, so this is going to prove how deep you are. And he's like, what's your favorite movie? And you're like, I can't say Legally Blonde to you.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. So I feel like I've reclaimed that as an adult now. People like, what's for movie? I'm like, how to Lose a guy in 10 days.

[Nora McInerney]

A perfect movie.

[Tracy Thomas]

Perfect movie, perfect. But I used to be embarrassed and be like, yeah, on the Waterfront. And now I'm like, A League of Their Own. The real answer is A League of Their Own. That is my number one. A one Most favorite movie has been my entire life. If I ever say anything else, I am lying to you to either look cooler or to look stupider. Those are the only options. I'm either trying to play it up or play it down. It's A League of Their Own. That's it.

[Nora McInerney]

I didn't know the Cheesecake Factory was a chain is what I'm trying to tell you, Tracy. When they opened it in Minneapolis, Minnesota, okay. And by that I mean the suburb it opened at, Southdale, I thought, what a great new restaurant that I've never heard of.

[Tracy Thomas]

I do remember the first time I went, I was down here in LA visiting a cousin. I was living in the Bay Area at the time, and it was like her 13th birthday, and it was like, fancy. It was like a fancy thing. And I remember I came back to visit another time and I was like, can we go to the Cheesecake Factory? I knew it was a chain, but I don't feel like we had one close to us at the time in the Bay Area. But I still love the Cheesecake Factory.

[Nora McInerney]

I. That's what my 8 year old. That's his. One of his wishes for this year is to go to the Cheesecake Factory.

[Tracy Thomas]

What is that? What's your go to order?

[Nora McInerney]

He's. I have not been there in probably 15 years. I couldn't. I'm like, is there even anything I can eat? I'm celiac. I don't know.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, yeah. I don't know. I don't know about.

[Nora McInerney]

I don't know. But I bet.

[Tracy Thomas]

I think they have salad.

[Nora McInerney]

They've got a salad menu.

[Tracy Thomas]

They've got a. Yeah, they have so many there's definitely things.

[Nora McInerney]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

Because it is for everyone, is luxurious. Like, you have to be fancy to go there. And there's things.

[Nora McInerney]

There's things.

[Tracy Thomas]

There's so many chicken wings, right?

[Nora McInerney]

Yeah, I think so.

[Tracy Thomas]

They're not breaded.

[Nora McInerney]

On where they're breaded. Yeah. If they're breaded and what kind of fryer they use. But, like. Right.

[Tracy Thomas]

So you can't have the brown bread.

[Nora McInerney]

I can't have the brown bread. But you better believe that I always had the brown bread. Cause I had no idea what was wrong with me. I just thought everyone.

[Tracy Thomas]

When did you find out you were celiac?

[Nora McInerney]

Like, 31? My husband was dying.

[Tracy Thomas]

I was like, I feel like a lot happened to you in that time.

[Nora McInerney]

We'll put this on the back burner. Okay. Okay.

[Tracy Thomas]

Priorities.

[Nora McInerney]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

I was like, I'll.

[Nora McInerney]

I'll deal with that later. Cuz also, bread was like, my very favorite thing. But you know what? The racks king had the best description of the brown bread. Tracy, when she wrote it just tastes like brown. And I was like, that's 100% it.

[Tracy Thomas]

It's. Okay. I have a confession.

[Nora McInerney]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

I prefer the white bread.

[Nora McInerney]

Wow.

[Tracy Thomas]

I do.

[Nora McInerney]

Wow. Okay.

[Tracy Thomas]

I prefer the white bread. I like it. I think I like the flavor slightly better. It tastes better with butter. And I like butter more than anything. I love on the butter.

[Nora McInerney]

I love.

[Tracy Thomas]

I love butter.

[Nora McInerney]

I. I don't.

[Tracy Thomas]

And my kid is really into butter. And I'm like, that's right. He's also into glitter. I'm like, are you me?

[Nora McInerney]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

Like, the two things he love. He'll be like, oh, mommy, can you wear this to drop off? And it's like, I have these gold shoes that have this giant bow. And I'm like, babe, I'm wearing dirty sweatpants from yesterday. He's so. He's like, please wear that. Wear this. Wear this to school today, Bad mom.

[Nora McInerney]

And wear the glitter shoes to drop off. You better. Do you love me today in glitter shoes? Okay, maybe I will. Sequin gown. Full sequin gown. And be like, I heard you. I saw you. I'm here.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. This is what you want? This is who you want your mom to be?

[Nora McInerney]

I'm here.

[Tracy Thomas]

This is me. Okay, wait, let's talk. I want to talk a little bit more about tacky before we talk about more into the book. I think one of the things that I was thinking about speaking of my kid is, like, a lot of the things that are tacky are things that children love. And I'm wondering because, like, she compares it Sort of to this, like, joyfulness.

[Nora McInerney]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

And I'm wondering, like, is it something that speaks to us before we, like, know better, that once we're, like, socially conditioned to not, like, these things, that we, like, feel shame about them? And so it's like, oh, well, that's tacky. But when it's kind of in this earnestness thing. Right. Like, when we're young and we don't know better, there's this earnest love of my pink sparkly skirt from my kid or my gold shoes. But at some point, he's gonna learn, because toxic masculinity and also, like, toxic mom. Like, he's gonna eventually learn, like, it's not appropriate to wear fudgeing gold sparkle shoes. To pick you high heels. To pick you up with my dirty Old Navy sweatpants.

[Nora McInerney]

Toxic.

[Tracy Thomas]

But I don't know.

[Nora McInerney]

Masculinity is something you need to. I need to trademark moving forward.

[Tracy Thomas]

That's me. Toxic momsculinity. I can't say it, but I can feel it in my heart, and I can do it.

[Nora McInerney]

Best written out. And I think that's okay. There's certain. Certain things.

[Tracy Thomas]

I'm gonna put it on a shirt in the tacky font.

[Nora McInerney]

You should. You should.

[Tracy Thomas]

With the picture of the doll in the martini glass. Toxic momsculinity. It's me.

[Nora McInerney]

Pink is for girls.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. Just all these horrible things. Stop crying. But, yes, I do. I'm like. I just feel like, for me, as I was reading the book, when she was actually talking about tacky things, I kept thinking, like, isn't that just like. Like a. Like a callback to the youth and, like, the nostalgia stuff?

[Nora McInerney]

Yeah, I think some of it is. And I think some of it, too, is, like. I don't want to say classist, but kind of. Right. Because people who look.

[Tracy Thomas]

That's right.

[Nora McInerney]

People who look down on, like, the Cheesecake Factory or, you know, Hot Topic. Actually, the Hot Topic essay was something that I really, really enjoyed, too, because there's, like, this gatekeeping of taste. Right. Or, like, oh, you bet. You must unlock this secret portal to, like, having, like, good taste. And, you know, I've said it before, like, and I felt that way about the meatloaf essay, too. I was like, yes, you do. Like meatloaf. Yes, you do. If a meatloaf song comes on. Yes, you do. Yes, you do. Like Coldplay.

[Tracy Thomas]

Meatloaf. I don't know Meatloaf. I'm black.

[Nora McInerney]

I'm good.

[Tracy Thomas]

It's not cultural.

[Nora McInerney]

I'm going to send you a song, and you'll be like, okay, I get it. And maybe that's just because that was the karaoke song that my dead husband sang, and I was supposed to sing the girl parts, and he was so good at karaoke. I was like, I'm too shy for this. And I just sat down my microphone and walked away. Left for the night, dead. I was like, I. I got it all from him. Like, he died and, like, zapped it into me.

[Tracy Thomas]

He was like, into you.

[Nora McInerney]

There you go.

[Tracy Thomas]

You're like, I have to carry this.

[Nora McInerney]

Yeah. I was like, I will. I will be able to walk into a party. I promise. I won't just stand outside of it. Okay. But I think. Yeah, I think mostly it's like, oh, if you knew better, you wouldn't like this stuff. Right? Like, if you'd actually been to Italy, you wouldn't like the Olive Garden. And it's like, right, okay, well, most people are never going to go to Italy.

[Tracy Thomas]

Right, Right. But also. I mean, and also, you like. I like Tex Mex is some great food.

[Nora McInerney]

Yes.

[Tracy Thomas]

But people. It's not Mexican food. And I feel like. Yeah, but I do feel like text, like, anyways. Yes. Yeah, I agree with you. I also feel like some of the stuff, like a Hot Topic. Again, not for me. Not because I thought it was. I was just more of a limited to girl, you know? Like, it wasn't. That's just like a different kind of child. And I. Hot Topic was not gonna give me the pink sequin.

[Nora McInerney]

No thing, you know?

[Tracy Thomas]

Like, it was. It was giving a different kind of child, and it just wasn't me.

[Nora McInerney]

It wasn't me.

[Tracy Thomas]

I actually remember being scared of Hot Topic. Yes.

[Nora McInerney]

I was very afraid of Hot. I was like, those kids are like. They're probably, like, smoking a cigarette in there. I don't know.

[Tracy Thomas]

They're doing drugs, and they're definitely having sex. Like, they were, like, the bad kids. And. And also, like, weird kids, too. Like, tough. Like, tough kids.

[Nora McInerney]

Yes, they were tough and they were scary. And they were all congreg waiting there, and they were wearing black, and black is the devil. Okay. And they're wearing, like, shirts that say Slayer. I don't know what that means, but I think it's mean and scary. And I am on my way to limited, too. Right. And I might stop by Claire's on the way there. Hot Topic was always, like, on the first floor of a mall, like, in a corner.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, at our mall, it was upstairs.

[Nora McInerney]

Okay. It was like. It just was in a. It was away. It was a way.

[Tracy Thomas]

It was away in the corner. It was a way was. It was definitely a corner.

[Nora McInerney]

It was like edgy. But I married a guy who was like, who friggin loved Hot Topic, so.

[Tracy Thomas]

But in my mind, Hot Topic isn't actually tacky. It's a different thing.

[Nora McInerney]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

I think like the joyfulness aspect was never there for me. And I do, I do agree with her that tacky, like, because she, she compares tacky and trashy. And she says to my mind, trashiness is distinct from tackiness. It's closed off and uninviting. It's unpleasant. If tackiness is about joyfully becoming, trashiness has already become. And there is not one joyful thing about the thing it has become. And I think she's right. I think the difference between like something being tacky has to have joy, it has to have fun. There's whimsy to tacky.

[Nora McInerney]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

There is like a giggle with tacky.

[Nora McInerney]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

Trashy is like, ick.

[Nora McInerney]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

Dead serious and like maybe rough, maybe violent, maybe just like someone's being laughed at with trashy. With tacky, we're all just having a grand old time.

[Nora McInerney]

Yeah. I think the hot topic of it like does have that joy for the right people, for the right kid, you know, And I think it's like this little haven of kids who don't fit in in a very, very specific version of their world. And this is like the place where they can access things that kind of become that portal to another universe. Which I, yeah. Appreciated about that take too. Like her take about that is like, yeah, you know, oh, here's like this store, like a, a corporate store that you could walk into and you're like in every mall. I can, I can get, you know, like it's, it's very fandom oriented to like nowadays. It's very fandom oriented. So it's like, oh, I can get, you know, a special like anime shirt here or I can get like a costumey outfit that sort of like lets me feel different and like signals to the world that I am different and.

[Tracy Thomas]

Right.

[Nora McInerney]

I don't. I have like a soft spot for that place too.

[Tracy Thomas]

Well, I think, I think it's just for the right kid, it's the right place. And there's other places for other kids that do the same thing. Like for me it was dance costumes. Right. It's like that's a portal to being a totally different person. And like it's, it's niche in certain ways. At least it feels niche when you're like a dancer girl. Right. It's like, also, like, horsey girls.

[Nora McInerney]

Yes.

[Tracy Thomas]

That same, like, aesthetic. It's like, it just has such a strong aesthetic, and it's a way that kids can say, like, this is who I am. This is where I belong. And I think all of those things are extremely tacky and also, like, so important in our, like, self development as being like, these are my people.

[Nora McInerney]

Yeah. Like, being like, I need a wallet chain. So everyone knows, like, I have a wallet.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. I shop at Hot Topic.

[Nora McInerney]

Can't take it. And I've got, like, a big metal ball necklace that you could also get at the hardware store. And I am, like. And I'm wearing, like, my dance jacket, so everyone knows, like, what I belong to. And that's exactly. Yeah. As we grow up, we don't have, like, those signifiers get a lot more subtle.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes. I wonder if that's part of it. Is like, things that signify are tacky.

[Nora McInerney]

Yeah. Yes.

[Tracy Thomas]

Like that. You have to be like, hey, hey, look at me. Which is why sometimes fancy things can be tacky. Like someone who's wearing, like, head to toe Louis Vuitton. You're like, babe, it's tacky.

[Nora McInerney]

We get.

[Tracy Thomas]

We get it. We don't need a shirt, a blouse, a belt and a suitcase and a hat and a shoe. Like, I see that you're wealthier than me, but like, that, anything that is communicating something extremely directly.

[Nora McInerney]

A cybertruck.

[Tracy Thomas]

Tacky.

[Nora McInerney]

A cybertruck is tacky.

[Tracy Thomas]

Is tacky as hell.

[Nora McInerney]

A cybertruck is tacky. Certain Teslas I find to be tacky. I really do.

[Tracy Thomas]

Well, especially now. I find all tests.

[Nora McInerney]

Especially now. Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

I'm like, don't you want to return that? I know you don't. I know you don't care about the environment that much.

[Nora McInerney]

Believe me, of us. I was like, when I see a cyber truck, I'm like, oh.

[Tracy Thomas]

I'm like, oh, small penis, too.

[Nora McInerney]

Oh, yeah. Like, you're. You're trying to. Oh. Oh. It's okay. It's okay. Standing by.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. There are people who can help you with this. People can help you. Yeah, I do. I think maybe that's something to it where it's like. It's things that announce themselves or announce you to others.

[Nora McInerney]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

Are tacky.

[Nora McInerney]

Yeah. And a mall restaurant will do that. A mall restaurant will announce. It will.

[Tracy Thomas]

That's true.

[Nora McInerney]

Because guess what? You're not finishing that meal. And you are. You're leaving with a bag. You're leaving with a branded bag.

[Tracy Thomas]

That is marketing.

[Nora McInerney]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay. We're going to take a quick break and we're going to come back and talk about some of the essays more in detail. Running a business means wearing a lot of hats, but Shopify helps you focus on what really matters, selling your product and growing your brand. Whether you're starting a small side hustle or scaling up, Shopify makes it easy to manage everything in one place. It's the platform I use for all of the Stacks Merch March and it has turned what could have been a total logistical nightmare into something that is seamless, run smoothly and I basically never think about What I love most about Shopify is how intuitive it is. Analytics, payments, inventory, marketing. It's all ready to go and it's all in one place. And with tools like Shop Pay, which boosts conversions by up to 50%, Shopify ensures every sale counts. It's like having an extra set of hands to handle the details so you can stay focused on creating and connecting with your customers, upgrade your business and get the same checkout we use with Shopify. Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.com the stacks all lowercase go to shopify.com the stacks to upgrade your selling today. Shopify.com the stacks hey y'all, I wanted to take a little more time to tell you about what's going on on the Stacks Pack. Patreon. This is the time of year that I encourage folks to join because there are some awesome, awesome perks. First and foremost, you get everything. You get all year long bonus episodes, access to the Discord community which is alive and well. You get to join our monthly virtual book clubs where we talk about whatever our book club pick has been for the previous month. Plus there's some other seasonal perks you have access to if you join. Now we have a reading tracker that goes out in December and you can only access it from December to January, so you must sign up now so that you get it when it drops. We also have the Stackies, which are the Stacks Pack Exclusive exclusive literary awards. Only members of the Stacks Pack and subscribers to the newsletter can vote on which books are the best books of the year. And lastly, we have a mega challenge that is A list of 52 reading prompts to shake up your reading life. And that is exclusive to the Stacks Pack. So if you love this podcast, if you want to support the work that I do, if you want to make it possible for me to continue doing this work, go to patreon.com the stacks and join the Stacks Pack. And now you're able to gift a subscription to the Stacks Pack to the other readers in your Life. Head to patreon.com the stacks. Find all the information there and I really hope that you'll become part of this amazing community now. AT T Mobile get four 5G phones on us and four lines for 25.

[Nora McInerney]

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[Tracy Thomas]

Minimum of 4 lines for 25 per line per month with auto pay discount using debit or bank account, $5 more.

[Nora McInerney]

Per line without auto pay plus taxes and fees and 10 device connection charge phones via 24 monthly bill credits for well qualified customers. Contact us before canceling entire account to.

[Tracy Thomas]

Continue build credits or credit stop and.

[Nora McInerney]

Balance on a required finance agreement due.

[Tracy Thomas]

Bill credits and if you pay off devices early ct mobile.com okay, we're back. It's time to talk about the essays. Did you have a particular. Well, we've talked about Vanilla Sugar and Hot Topic. Did you have a particular favorite essay or one that stood out to you as, like, really doing something that you liked?

[Nora McInerney]

Oh, I liked the shopping mall one a lot. I liked the shopping mall one. I also wanted this just like a small design thing, but I wanted the chapters to be more like, set apart or something. I don't know. There's just something about them where I was like, oh, I wish that I could, like, tell what chapter I'm in easier, even though I know it's at the top.

[Tracy Thomas]

But it's just like, yeah, yeah.

[Nora McInerney]

What? What? Oh, actually, the Creed 1. The Creed 1 was my favorite. It started out really strong. And yes, it's one of those things where, like, I can't stand when people are snobby about music, like mainstream music, and they're like, oh, that's like, so bad. I'm like, well, I don't know, maybe you just don't like it. Okay.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, I. I'm such a snob about so many things. Music is not one of them because I'm not that into music. So I only like pop music. Like, I only like my Spotify wrapped, all five songs. Beyonce. That was it. It was Beyonce. Beyonce, Nora Jones, Tracy Chapman, Fleetwood Mac and Kendrick Lamar.

[Nora McInerney]

Damn. Okay, great dinner party. Great dinner party.

[Tracy Thomas]

Ever heard of any of those people? If you haven't, you know even less about music than I do. Those are icons of the stage. Okay, but like, I. I don't. I was never into Creed, but I just didn't listen to that.

[Nora McInerney]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

Do you know what I mean? Like, it was more like what radio station were you listening to? And I was not listening to the alt rock. I was listening to the hip hop. Right.

[Nora McInerney]

Yeah, they were on our. They were in 101.3, KDWB, which was our kind of everything station.

[Tracy Thomas]

They were on our everything station. So I do know, like, can you take me higher?

[Nora McInerney]

Yes. But I remember hearing that song and being like, I am really touched. This a good song about having a baby. And I am only in high school and many years away from becoming a parent, but I hope that I am with a man who feels this way about our baby being. I was very.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay.

[Nora McInerney]

That got me my Catholic school soul. And I was like, yes, welcome to this world I'll show you everything with arms wide open okay. Yes. Wow.

[Tracy Thomas]

I don't. I couldn't tell you any other lyrics besides with arms wide open.

[Nora McInerney]

Welcome to this world I'll show you everything that's all. That's all you really need to know. I wouldn't have bought a cd, but it was like, it was always on mtv. So I was like, yeah, I'm not going to change the station to this, you know? And then I felt really bad. Like, I always. I feel very bad when people have, like, a downfall and other people are cheering for it and the only thing they did was kind of like, exist. Like, he was like a. He was just a neutral, you know?

[Tracy Thomas]

See, I don't.

[Nora McInerney]

It's just neutral.

[Tracy Thomas]

I like this essay as an essay, but I didn't. I don't have a connection to him. No. Or to them. But I think one of the things that this essay made me think a lot about, which is something we talk a lot about on this podcast, is like, do we just hate things that go down easy? If something is beloved, do we just hate it because we're all. We all want to be, like, snobby. We did a Colleen Hoover book this year for book club, which, I mean, it was not a good book. The writing is not good. Okay. It goes down so smooth. You can read this 400 page book in about 37 seconds. There's a lot of issues with it. But when I announced this book, let me tell you, I have never received more pushback from my listeners and my followers about why this book was a problem and there is domestic violence. And people were saying that it did this and that. And I understand the criticism. However, the book itself didn't do all that. Okay, yeah, the book. The book is not good. But there's something about, like, hating something because it's, like, simple or Basic.

[Nora McInerney]

Yes.

[Tracy Thomas]

That I think is really, like, is an interesting thing to me, is an interesting idea of, like, the earnestness of a thing that is pretty straightforward, is, like, easy to destroy.

[Nora McInerney]

Yes.

[Tracy Thomas]

At closer look. Which I think she gets at with Creed.

[Nora McInerney]

Yeah. And with everything it's like you're supposed to want to go eat at. She mentions like, oh, these are the Michelin starred restaurants. And done. I've eaten at some of them. And you know what? I left hungry because it wasn't enough food. Okay. And I don't want a foam. I don't want an emulsion. I don't want something, like, beautiful. I need, like 2,000 calories.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Nora McInerney]

For a dinner to make sense to me. Okay.

[Tracy Thomas]

Exactly.

[Nora McInerney]

I don't want that. I want a lot of food. And it doesn't even need to be that good. But I do think that there's something to. Oh, it's like the challenge of it. Or it's like, oh, I discovered something and that makes it more, you know, valuable. Or somebody deemed it art, and therefore it is art. But if I can, you know, if, like, oh, well, if I could do that well, then it's just no good. And. Right. That's why I don't. If I'm. If I write about books, there's one exception to the rule. And I was very tame on it because I was like, well, it's a matter of taste. Right? It is a matter of taste. But, like, if I don't like something, I mostly just like, like, let it go.

[Tracy Thomas]

If I don't like something, I explain what I don't like and why.

[Nora McInerney]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

But. But I also am like a natural born critic.

[Nora McInerney]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

And I like, that is just who I am. Like, I used, as a kid, I used to go see shows with my mom and friends, and we would leave and I'd be like, this was this, and this was that. And they were like, oh, you hated the show. I'd be like, no, I loved it. It was the best thing I've ever seen. But I'm gonna tell you every. Like, oh, her shoelace was untied. Oh, this. Like, I'm obsessed with, like, nitpicking things. Like, one of my great joys is to, like, sit with a friend and talk about, like, one little thing that happened at a party and, like, obsess over it for hours. Like, that's just who I am. I cannot let things. I cannot be like, oh, I didn't like it. I have to be like, this is why I didn't like it. Didn't you hate it, too?

[Nora McInerney]

I actually. I really liked the way that you wrote about Wicked, and that explained a lot to me about how I felt. And then I've just repeated that to other people.

[Tracy Thomas]

Well, everyone's yelling at me that I'm being too contrarian, and I'm like, okay, well, I'm sorry, but I didn't like it.

[Nora McInerney]

Yeah, I think that's okay. I also didn't really like the Barbie movie.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, I hated the Barbie movie.

[Nora McInerney]

I was like, I don't. I don't get it. And also, I hated the line where the creator goes, us mothers stand still so our daughters can see how far they've gone. I was like, what are you talking about?

[Tracy Thomas]

Tapped out by then? No, that I hated that movie. I was like, I didn't have a substack at the time because that would have been a whole month of substacks.

[Nora McInerney]

I was like, I get it. I don't get it.

[Tracy Thomas]

I don't know.

[Nora McInerney]

I was like, it was okay.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay. It was okay. It was a great.

[Nora McInerney]

For sure. It was a movie. For sure it was a movie.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, it was a great design concept with no plot.

[Nora McInerney]

One hundred and any other year, I think people would have been like, that is tacky. That movie is tacky. To like, that movie would be tacky. But, yes, it had the Greta Gerwig of it all. It had the Noah Baumbach of it all. And therefore, art by Mattel.

[Tracy Thomas]

Art T.M. mattel. Yes. Okay, wait. But on this same line, because she talks about this in a different essay. The Josie and the Pussycats doll. Josie and the Pussycats, Yeah. Movie essay. I think it's called. Three Little Words is the name of the essay. Three Small Words. Yeah, and she gets it. Okay, this is what I want to talk about with you because I know you'll have thoughts and feelings. She talks about how the taste of girls is often sort of derided and that critics and men sort of poo poo these things. And I was thinking a lot about how, as a woman, and I think this also goes, like, as a black person, or, you know, whatever. Whatever outside group you might fit into. We are conditioned to take ourselves and our taste out of the way that we view art. And to say, this is Catcher in the Rye, this is for boys, or whatever, but I see how the writing is good. Or, this is the Revenant. This movie is serious and for men. And he's cold. And so am I watching it. And this is great cinema, but, like, nobody ever throws me a fucking bone on Center Stage. One of the greatest films ever made in the history of the American cinema. And so I thought it was really interesting because I also think, to your point about Guilty pleasures earlier, that this tacky culture is just sexist as hell.

[Nora McInerney]

I think it is. I think none of these things are male interests. Right. Like, which, I mean, I guess there's only so much you can write about if it's a memoir and essays in your. A woman, but.

[Tracy Thomas]

Right.

[Nora McInerney]

Yeah. They're not talking. There's not, you know, an Ed Hardy essay. There's not a. You know what, actually, I think is tacky? That's more for. Men are, like, really loud. Like the silly little motorcycles, like the ones that are Harley Davidson, you know.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. That are so loud.

[Nora McInerney]

Yeah. And they're like, you know what I.

[Tracy Thomas]

Think is tacky for men? Women do it, too. But I find it tacky when men do it. When men are, like, decked out head to toe in their favorite sports teams gear, wearing, like, other men's names on their shirts. And I'm just like, that is so tacky to me.

[Nora McInerney]

You're quoting my dead dad. Oh, and I love this. He is in this room with us and he is like, yes. He was like. He was like, what? So tacky. Why are you dressed up as another guy?

[Tracy Thomas]

Like a loser? Like, you're just in a costume. My kid was a football player for Halloween. Like, you're dressed up like Travis Kelce.

[Nora McInerney]

What a show that is. That is male tackiness. That is male tackiness. And, yeah, that's a really good example.

[Tracy Thomas]

Few things I feel like, but even that. Which I think is so tacky. Nobody. It's not considered tacky broadly, no. In the way that Josie and the Pussycat doll movie.

[Nora McInerney]

Right.

[Tracy Thomas]

Or Hot Topic or a bejeweled hat or Juicy Couture sweatsuit or whatever.

[Nora McInerney]

Vanilla sugar.

[Tracy Thomas]

You know, like, Ed Hardy might be the closest to a tacky thing that is body spray. Oh, okay.

[Nora McInerney]

Which is. That is considered male warm vanilla sugar.

[Tracy Thomas]

That is. That is. But yes, most tacky things are not directed at men.

[Nora McInerney]

No, I think you're right. Yeah. We are the only people have to more defend just the things that we like for the sake of liking them. And I don't. Yeah, yeah. I don't remember the. The critical reviews of Josie and the Pussycat, because I was maybe a teenager when that movie came out, but I was like, it was like, oh, that movie is made for me. Right.

[Tracy Thomas]

Well, that's the thing.

[Nora McInerney]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

The reviewers act like this is like Siskel and Ebert I don't think this was made for you.

[Nora McInerney]

No.

[Tracy Thomas]

So step back and say, well, if I was a 15 year old girl.

[Nora McInerney]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

Like, like that's the thing that critics are asked to do, which is like, does the art, what does the art do? Does it do what it set out to do and does it do it well? And like did I like it? Yes or no? And those are like the different things. And I think when women or people of color are asked to review content, they do that. They say this wasn't for me, but blah, blah, blah. But I think when white men do it, it's like, this is bad, this is garbage, this is trash. And it's like, but babe, you're not the target audience. Yeah, like, like I don' I don't think they wrote Mary had a Little Lamb for Grandpa's. Like, I don't. I just. It's not giving doesn't feel right to me. And I think like, I think it's such a disservice to a lot of really good art that is for the exact right audience.

[Nora McInerney]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

Like Bluey is beloved. A beloved TV show because parents like it and kids like it. But like my kids like a bunch of shitty shows that I fudgeing, hate. But my kids love them. So those are, they're doing something right. If the audience, which is like 4 year old kids are obsessed. Like I'm not supposed to like super kitties. Like, I don't think that's for me, the fact that I like Bluey is a bonus. But like that doesn't mean super kitties is bad. It just means that like I should go do dishes or something.

[Nora McInerney]

Right now I feel like Bluey is more targeted to parents and just so happy.

[Tracy Thomas]

So kids like it.

[Nora McInerney]

They're like, I want to, I want to tell parents that, you know, they're, they're okay mentally and give them some regulation tools and then also their kids can watch this.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. It's also. It's a cartoon.

[Nora McInerney]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

In the Josie and the Pussycat Dolls essay, she says if you need to re watch something, it's a sign that it is good and not perfect. And I loved that. Let me see if I can find that line about the good. The good versus on 89.

[Nora McInerney]

I. I loved, I loved, loved, love her definition of perfect.

[Tracy Thomas]

Here's what she says. She says to speak effectively about a piece of entertainment as seemingly goofy as Josie and the Pussycats is important to, to first distinguish between the good and the perfect. The good is tasteful. You can see that thought has Gone into it. It is carefully layered and so lends itself nicely to interpretation. As a result, it wants maybe to be deconstructed. Or else it is cons. Or else its constituent parts are so elaborate that it must be deconstructed. It impresses, but probably not in any unexpected way. Consider a film. A good film ought only to be called a film, never a movie like, I don't know. Showa ponderously long. Check. Exhaust researched. Check. Wrenching to the point of causing physical agony. Check. See also the gorgeous tense work of Werner Herzog or the poetry in the music of the National. These are good works, which is fine. Good work commands respect, even if it isn't to your personal taste. You must respect the time and training that inform the people who have produced good work. Not so with perfect. A jangly three minute pop song with a hand clapping section can be perfect in a way that a song with an unusual time signature cannot not. The artifact in this case is its own packaging. The form and structure of a perfect thing are tricky because they need to look as if they don't exist. A perfect song should sound as if it were somehow already stuck in a first time listener's head. A perfect movie should partake gleefully of tired old tropes and make them so much fun that a viewer doesn't care. Maybe even delights in the familiar. As food writer Helen Rosner once wrote of her favorite perfect food, the humble chicken tender. Perfection is a precarious state. It occupies a narrow peak, the very pinnacle of the mountain. By its very nature, perfection leaves no room for wildness or risk.

[Nora McInerney]

I highlighted that too.

[Tracy Thomas]

So good.

[Nora McInerney]

Like, yeah, I mean, that is. That is.

[Tracy Thomas]

That's what was frustrating about the book is I wanted all that the whole time. I did not want her weird relationship with her old neighbor boy who gave her or old neighbor man who gave her concert tv. I was like, ew.

[Nora McInerney]

I know.

[Tracy Thomas]

And you and I are both prudes. So how did you deal with it?

[Nora McInerney]

I know, I know. I'm. Yeah. I also was like, oh, like the Excel spreadsheet. I was like, okay, yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

It was too much sex for me. It's too much sex for me.

[Nora McInerney]

It was too much.

[Tracy Thomas]

I just wasn't prepared. I needed to be prepared.

[Nora McInerney]

Yeah. I really wanted this to be just purely essays about the Cheesecake Factory, Victoria's Secret even. I would have taken like you could have gone store by store through a 2003 mall and come up with just like everything that you needed.

[Tracy Thomas]

That's actually a great idea because you could Also do, like, the music that's playing, the food in the mall, like, the whole thing.

[Nora McInerney]

And Auntie Annie's. Okay.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay. That's not tacky.

[Nora McInerney]

That is all of that. No, it's actually really, really, really wonderfully delicious. Yeah, I. That's what I wanted too. That's what I wanted to. And that's kind of. Those are the parts of the chapters that lagged for me, and those are the parts that I skimmed. Yeah. Too.

[Tracy Thomas]

I was like, those are the parts I didn't like. Yeah, I didn't. And I just. It's not that she didn't write about it well, it's just that I was not here for that. Like, I did not want. I. I mean, we picked this book because we were like, let's do something fun.

[Nora McInerney]

Yes.

[Tracy Thomas]

And then it was like, my abusive husband. And I was like, I.

[Nora McInerney]

It was not fun.

[Tracy Thomas]

The essay that I thought she threaded the culture and her memoir, the best, was the Jersey Shore essay. That was my favorite one about her dad and his dying and how they. I mean, I got teary eyed at the end of that one because I think she talked about the Jersey Shore in such a fun way. And I remember that time of like, oh, my God, what is this show? I remember I watched the first episode when it aired live, like, with my friend. We were like, we have. We saw the previews and we were like, we have to check this out. This looks too good. But when. When she's, like, talking about how her dad would call her and re. Tell every little bit that, ha. Like, I. I mean, you and I have both lost our dads, but I was so emotional over the rendering of that relationship in a way that I have never really felt about the daughter whose dad died thing in. In other writing, like, I think she really tapped on the marriage of culture and like, our lives in that essay in a way that she did not quite get to in the later essays.

[Nora McInerney]

Yeah. I also thought that was a really beautiful depiction of, like, a father daughter relationship. Because liking the things or showing interest in the things that your kids are interested in is such a good parenting staple. You know, like, yeah, you don't have. It's a bonus that he does like it. Right. He is interested in it, but just like, like showing that kind of interest in something that's targeted towards your kids. Right. Like, he was not the target demographic for watching Jersey Store, but then again.

[Tracy Thomas]

Right, Right.

[Nora McInerney]

Nobody really was. Like, I'd never been to New Jersey. I did not know anything about this. About this culture. Yeah. I Really? I really enjoyed that one too. That was a good one.

[Tracy Thomas]

And she asks some really good questions in that one about, like, what is a. Like, can low brow still be, like, a marker of taste? Like, if you like shitty things that are considered shitty. Like, is that still defining taste? And also the way that taste bonds us. Like, the ways that we like the same things or hate the same things. Like, you were saying things are tacky that people you hate would hate.

[Nora McInerney]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

Like, that is showing how, like, taste bonds us. Like, in your case, it drives a wedge, but it's a clear, like, demarcator. And I think I just. That that essay is what I wanted for the whole book. If she was gonna do the memoir stuff, I really wanted her to, like, Dr. Lines. But yes, when I got to the end of that episode, I was like, a little bit like, am I. Am I feeling things right now? Like, I miss my dad so much. I was, like, reading it over Thanksgiving too. So I think I was just like, I miss my dad. I want to watch some sports with him or whatever.

[Nora McInerney]

What did your dad like to talk to you about?

[Tracy Thomas]

Sports. Sports, mostly. We were a big sports family always. But my dad also like to talk about, like, political things and, like. Like, he loved to talk about racism, just like me. I think I got that from him. He'd be like, do you see how that's racist? I'm like, I do. I see it. That guy. But what about your dad?

[Nora McInerney]

My dad liked to talk about pop culture, so strangely, we never talked about Jersey Shore as far as I can remember. But he watched, like, Inside Edition, Access Hollywood, tmz.

[Tracy Thomas]

So celebrity gossip.

[Nora McInerney]

Yeah. So you could call him and you'd be like, did you see. Do you see what. What Brittany and Lindsay were doing? They're out of control, you know, and he would just. You'd have, like, a strong opinion on it, and I would be like, yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

So now when, like, celebrity gossip comes out, do you always think of him?

[Nora McInerney]

Are you like, I do. I'm like, rip. Dad, you would have really, really loved Tick Tock.

[Tracy Thomas]

What year did he die?

[Nora McInerney]

2014.

[Tracy Thomas]

So he got some Kardashians.

[Nora McInerney]

He got some Kardashian. But I really think. Think, like, you know, not enough. Enough to have an opinion. But he would have not. But he would have not seen this coming. Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

Like, how do you think he would have felt about the, like, Kanye of it all? The Marilyn Monroe dress feels so scandalous to me.

[Nora McInerney]

It is, it is. But I mean, I honestly think that he would have now with all this Other sort of stuff. I'm. Maybe I should preface this by saying I didn't realize how susceptible I am to conspiracy theory thinking until all the Diddy stuff came out on Tick Tock. And then I went through a rabbit hole where I was like, oh, and there's. There's Kris Jenner and there's Kris Jenner's boyfriend and there's. And then, you know, Kanye is on these interviews saying, like, they tried to. They tried to 5150 me and put me on this. Much like lithium. And it does seem very nefarious and racist.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, my gosh.

[Nora McInerney]

Okay.

[Tracy Thomas]

Was your, like, was your dad conspiracy theory, too?

[Nora McInerney]

A little bit.

[Tracy Thomas]

Ok. My dad was also conspiracy theory too, a little bit. But usually his were about race. Like, he was like, Mark Fuhrman for sure planted the glove on O.J. like, my dad, like, was fully like, Mark Fuhrman was enemy numero uno in my childhood.

[Nora McInerney]

Tracy, I found a diary entry about the O.J. simpson trial where I was your dad.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, my gosh. Well, I mean, I.

[Nora McInerney]

In the 90s, he simply didn't do it.

[Tracy Thomas]

It. You were the one white person in America. It was like you and all the black kids in Minneapolis.

[Nora McInerney]

I was like, I just. There's just not enough evidence.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay, listen, I, I don't. I, I'm pretty sure he did it, but I also, after I saw that documentary, they're like, whatever. I've seen it twice now.

[Nora McInerney]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

I am never been more convinced that he deserved to be acquitted, even though I've also never been more convinced that he did it.

[Nora McInerney]

Like, two things can be true. The legals.

[Tracy Thomas]

The legals did bad. The legals did very bad.

[Nora McInerney]

Okay.

[Tracy Thomas]

I don't know how we got here, but conspiracy theories.

[Nora McInerney]

What would we talk to our dads about? Yeah, I feel like I. Yeah, I. I really, really, really loved talking with my dad about celebrity stuff. And I also think that he would have really been tickled by the rise of Taylor Swift, cuz. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I think he would have been. I think he would have been shocked. I think he would have been shocked.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, just to see what she. Because he saw her in the early days to see how big she's gotten. I see.

[Nora McInerney]

He would have been like. But also I think he would have been like, we got to end this era. Sarah's tour. We gotta end it. We gotta wrap it up.

[Tracy Thomas]

It's. She needs a break.

[Nora McInerney]

Thank you.

[Tracy Thomas]

I'm worried about her.

[Nora McInerney]

I'm worried about you. I was like, I.

[Tracy Thomas]

Too much work.

[Nora McInerney]

You know what she needs. She needs her dad, Scott Swift, to say, like, I love you and you've done enough and you're doing a good job, and, like, you don't have to do anything else. We already love you. And we have enough money.

[Tracy Thomas]

We have enough, and you're done.

[Nora McInerney]

You did it already.

[Tracy Thomas]

You need a massage and a Jacuzzi. Yeah. Fucking sleeping pill.

[Nora McInerney]

Honestly.

[Tracy Thomas]

Shut up.

[Nora McInerney]

You need a medical grade coma.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. For at least as long as the eras tour. At least half as long. Yeah. Like, it's like they say it takes half as long to get over a breakup as the relationship. You need half a long coma.

[Nora McInerney]

That's what I want for her. That's what I want for her. Okay.

[Tracy Thomas]

She is tacky. Yeah.

[Nora McInerney]

I think she is super tax. Yes.

[Tracy Thomas]

Like those friendship bracelets. Tacky.

[Nora McInerney]

You watch Miss Americana. You've seen her house in Nashville.

[Tracy Thomas]

No, I've never. It's tacky.

[Nora McInerney]

Yeah. And I love it. I was like, ooh, wallpaper on everything. Yeah. Ooh, little. Little doodads. Knickknacks. Themed knickknacks. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. I. I love knickknacks. I love things. Okay.

[Tracy Thomas]

Nora's gesticulating to the wall behind her.

[Nora McInerney]

Pointing at all home. I've just got little piles of things everywhere that I like that other people wouldn't necessarily like, but I had to have them, you know, one essay that.

[Tracy Thomas]

I have to pick a bone with. I do not think the Sims are tacky.

[Nora McInerney]

I don't either. I was like, that's a. I think.

[Tracy Thomas]

The Sims were just.

[Nora McInerney]

Could have just gone mall by mall. We could have just gone mall by mall.

[Tracy Thomas]

Exactly. The Sims. I don't think it needed an essay here. No, it was. That was the one about her abusive husband. I think she was reaching to figure out how to get that in, but the Sims was not the right entry point for me.

[Nora McInerney]

Yeah. I also want to say that as a. As a person who has written many chaotic books that may not give you what the title promises you, I can. I could feel that in this. Because I don't know what anything is going to be till I write it. And then I cannot maintain interest in one singular theme or topic for that long. I just can't do it. I can't do it. So I could. Every criticism lobbied against this book also applies to all of my own. It really does.

[Tracy Thomas]

I don't think that's quite true. You. I don't. I think you stay slightly more on topic. I think. I think we got all of them.

[Nora McInerney]

But also, I Think someday I want to tell the full story of my first book, because it was.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, whenever you're ready, come back on this podcast. We'll take the hot goss. We always talk about the title and the COVID but I feel like we already did that. We loved it. We think it's great. I also love the back of the.

[Nora McInerney]

COVID With the back, I actually wanted more leopard across the whole thing.

[Tracy Thomas]

Me too.

[Nora McInerney]

I wanted a little leopard because I love this little icon. But also, like, I wanted more. I wanted. I wanted more.

[Tracy Thomas]

I feel like maybe if she was in a leopard print gown.

[Nora McInerney]

Yes. And I did want a picture of her on the back of the book, and there wasn't one.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh.

[Nora McInerney]

And I had to. And I had to look. I had to look for her to find her.

[Tracy Thomas]

Did she look like what you thought she would look like?

[Nora McInerney]

No, I actually wasn't sure if, like, for just from judging on the COVID I was like, oh, maybe Rax King is like a. Like a drag queen.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, interesting.

[Nora McInerney]

You know, I have no idea.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Nora McInerney]

Yeah. But. Nope. Just a. Just a millennial gal.

[Tracy Thomas]

So for folks who don't know, in 2025, she's got a new book coming. It's called Sloppy.

[Nora McInerney]

Oh, okay.

[Tracy Thomas]

And I don't. I mean, who knows? It's. It's sloppy. And the subtitle is. Or Doing it All Wrong feels a little more open.

[Nora McInerney]

Okay.

[Tracy Thomas]

About what it could be about. But the back says. With Rax King's trademark blend of irreverent humor and heartfelt honesty comes a new collection of personal essays. Unpacking bad behavior, Sloppy explores sobriety, begrudging self improvement, and the habits we cling to with clinched fists.

[Nora McInerney]

Oh, that I love already.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Nora McInerney]

That I'm excited about.

[Tracy Thomas]

There's an essay called Proud Alcoholic Stock, in which she examines her parents unwavering dedication to 12 step programs, and the texture her family history has lent to her own sobriety. Shoplifting from Brandy Melville is a look at what else. Shoplifting from Brandy Melville. Those are those. That's what it says on the back cover. Okay, well, that sounds great.

[Nora McInerney]

I'll look forward to receiving that arc in the mail.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, it comes out in July, folks. July.

[Nora McInerney]

Damn.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Nora McInerney]

Okay. How. How far in advance do you read if you get an arc? Because I. Sometimes I. I'm like. I'm like, july, you want me reading for July?

[Tracy Thomas]

Well, I think they sent this to me because I told them we were doing tacky, and so they were like, oh, well, we'll send it to you. But I. If I. If and when I read this, it will probably be July of 2025. I will read ahead. Like, I'm reading January right now. And then I recommended a book to some friends of mine, and they both already read it, and so I need to read it so that I can be like, I told them about this book, because if they start posting about it, everyone's going to be like, oh, this is their book. And like, no, no, it's your book.

[Nora McInerney]

It's your book. What book is it? So I can post about it first.

[Tracy Thomas]

And it's called A Hot Air by Marcy Demerotsky. It's. It's so chaotic, I don't even really know what it's about. Some billionaire or something is on hot air balloon, and it crashes at, like, a Covid date at someone's backyard. And I think, like, maybe he knows the people. I don't know. Sounds crazy. It has an awesome cover. And I told my friends about it, and they both started it, and I'm like, what the. I invented this book, granted. Darcy or Marcy. I can't remember her name. I think it's Marcy. Marcy has, like, six books before this. It's not like I invented. It's not like a debut that I like, but you're welcome. Marcie, anything else we want to say about this book before we go?

[Nora McInerney]

No, we. We covered it. We covered it.

[Tracy Thomas]

I think we covered it.

[Nora McInerney]

This is Two Best Friends featuring Tracy and Nora. It's actually a new podcast, new announcement.

[Tracy Thomas]

Coming to you live.

[Nora McInerney]

And now it's just.

[Tracy Thomas]

So. Is terrible. Thanks. Well, terrible. Thanks for asking is over now. It's just. Thanks for asking.

[Nora McInerney]

Just thanks for asking. It's just. Thanks for asking. So if you want to call and talk to me about literally anything, do that thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

So freeing. You're not a grief person anymore.

[Nora McInerney]

No, just a sprinkle of sadness.

[Tracy Thomas]

Just. Just dabble it on glitter.

[Nora McInerney]

Glitter. A little glitter, a little sad glitter.

[Tracy Thomas]

As they say in my favorite. One of my favorite movies, how to lose a guy in 10 days. Frost yourself.

[Nora McInerney]

Oh, my God. I. Having worked in advertising, that was such a good depiction of advertising. Truly, I love it. Three guys being like, what's our target? Women. Okay, got it. Let's throw a football around. Let's ride a motorcycle. I was like, it was very highly. Did not realize, like, how. How accurate that would be. And also, frost yourself is a great tagline.

[Tracy Thomas]

It's a great tagline.

[Nora McInerney]

Great tagline. They did a great job. It's a perfect movie.

[Tracy Thomas]

That should be your new tagline for thanks for asking.

[Nora McInerney]

Go frost yourself.

[Tracy Thomas]

Frost yourself with grief. You're welcome. I didn't work in advertising. Can you tell?

[Nora McInerney]

No.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay, we're gonna go. We're probably gonna keep talking shit, but you guys will have to to. Yeah, catch us another time, everyone. Thank you for listening. Listen to the end of today's episode to find out what our January book club pick will be and we will see you in the Stacks. Thank you all so much for listening. And thank you again to Nora McInerney for joining the show. I'd also like to say a thank you to Pete Forester for helping to make this episode possible. Now it's the time you've all all been waiting for. It's our announcement for our January book club pick. We are going to be reading the Ministry of Time by Calie Ann Bradley. This debut novel blends science fiction with historical fiction and even a little bit of romance, following a civil servant tasked with overseeing a Victorian naval officer who's pulled from history and dropped into the modern world. It's inventive, surprising, and the perfect way to kick off the new year. We will be discussing this book on Wednesday, January 29th, and you can tune in on Wednesday, January 1st to find out who our book club guest will be for this pick. If you love the show and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com the stacks and join the stacks pack and you can check out my substack@tracy thomas.substack.com Remember, there are some extra special seasonal perks going on over there, so now is the time to join. Make sure you're subscribed to the Stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts. And if you're listening through Apple Podcasts or Spotify, be sure to leave us a rating and a review. For more from the Stacks, follow us on social media at the Stacks Pod, on Instagram threads and TikTok, and check out our website, thestaxpodcast.com this episode of the Stacks was edited by Christian Duenas with production assistance from Megan Caballero. Our graphic designer is Robin McRite, and our theme music is from Tagirajis. The Stax is created and produced by me, Tracy Thomas.