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- [00:01]
A
I think monuments could be a very fluid kind of concept in the sense that you have this physical structure. But I think monuments are also really more expansive in that monuments are often memories that we hold dear to ourselves. I'm not necessarily 100% going to always lean to say that this has to come down. There's some things that I feel like, yes, absolutely, this is racist. This needs to come down. But Titus Kaphar, he actually mentions this, you know, frequently. He says we should amend these things.
- [00:34]
B
Welcome to the Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host, Tracy Thomas, and today I am thrilled to welcome to the podcast Irvin Weathersby Jr. Irvin is a writer, educator and activist whose work delves into the complexities of race, history, art and social justice. His debut book is called An Open Contempt Confronting White Supremacy in Art and Public Spaces. It's a travelogue that reaches into American history and reflects the country's systemic inequality alongside a public fight for change. Today, Irvin and I talk about what witnessing progress feels like, where change can and should happen, and what perspective means when exploring these challenging public works. Don't forget our January book club pick is the Ministry of Time by Callie Ann Bradley. Jay Wortham will be back on Wednesday, January 29th to discuss this book with me. Be sure to read along and tune in. Quick reminder, everything we talk about on each episode of the Stacks can be found in the link in the show notes. And if you love this podcast and you want inside access to it, you can go to Tracy Thomas substack.com to subscribe to my newsletter and you can join our bookish community@patreon.com the stacks and for a limited time through the end of January, you can still get a shout out on this very podcast when you join the Stacks Pack. So shout out to our newest members of the Stacks packaging. Elizabeth Burek, Betsy Lisa Lynn, Crystal Clappich, Esther Lisa Kahlberg, Julie Allison, Emily Narcis, and On Tran. Thank you all so much for joining the Stacks Pack. And now it's time for my conversation with Irvin Weathersby Jr. All right, today I am joined by Irvin Weathersby Jr. He is a debut author whose brand new book is called called In Open Contempt Confronting White Supremacy and Art and Public Space. Irvin, welcome to the Stacks.
- [02:30]
A
Thank you for having me. So excited to be here.
- [02:33]
B
I'm so excited to have you. I have to tell the people at home our origin story. You and I, because we met as folks are hearing this probably like 11 months ago at AWP in Kansas City. And you were like, oh, I'm working on this book. Like, kind of, like, timid. You were sort of like, I thought maybe you would like, we're working on a book sort of like that was going to come out in, like, 30 years. Like, that was sort of the vibe. You were not in, like, full book promotion mode.
- [03:00]
A
Maybe humble is the word. I don't know.
- [03:03]
B
Humble is fine. However, you know what, you can define it however you want. You were in humble mode, and I was like, oh, that sounds really interesting. Like, cool. And then, like, two days later, we're hanging out and you're like, oh, yeah, well, when my book comes out, I'm like, oh, like, when's your book coming out? And you were like, January 2025. And I was like, oh, my gosh, why were you acting like this book was not done and ready to rock and roll? And then I fucking saw this cover. It is the most beautiful cover I've maybe ever seen. And so now here we are.
- [03:36]
A
Here we are. Well, thank you first. First for saying that. The COVID I didn't do it. Titus Kaphar was so kind to. To. To grace me. The COVID But, yes, thank you.
- [03:46]
B
Well, it's. I mean, it's stunning. And the other part of our origin story is that for folks who listened to this show last year when. When Andrew Borega was on and we talked about the word chesty, and I mentioned there was another fellow in that conversation who was like, what's chesty? That was Irvin.
- [04:03]
A
That was me. That was me. I was questioning Tracy all along.
- [04:07]
B
And, you know, now it's my turn to ask the questions. So here we go. In about 30 seconds or so. Can you tell folks about an open contempt?
- [04:16]
A
Yeah. So an open contempt really is the story of America as told through New Orleans. And it specifically looks at how art really informs everything we see all around us, especially white supremacy. So in 2017, I went home to New Orleans to look at the removal of four monuments. And in the process of walking through my city, looking at these monuments that were taken down, the ones that are still up, I take you around the world where I'm doing the same thing. I go through museums, I'm in the South, I go to South Dakota. I really go around a bunch of different places, really engaging with art, museums, public space, and really just trying to come up with some answers and even questions about how we can move forward beyond white supremacy.
- [04:58]
B
Yeah, I mean, I think people who are hearing you say, like, this is the Story of New Orleans. Right. The question is like, well, then why did you go to South Dakota? Or, like, why did you go to Monticello? So why did you?
- [05:10]
A
Well, I think the story of America cannot be told without the Mississippi River. And the Mississippi river is. The mouth of the Mississippi is right at New Orleans. And as a result, New Orleans really was the most important port, arguably more important than New York or even in Carolina during antebellum, you know, the antebellum period. So the story of New Orleans is really entwined with the story of everything. And as you traverse up the Mississippi, you can find your way in South Dakota as well. And so there's a number of different ties into South Dakota, especially Native American kind of trauma, which is memorialized in New Orleans in a really fantastic, really kind of bizarre way. In the center of Jackson Square, you have Andrew Jackson, who is the architect of the Trail of Tears. And so I was able to kind of tie all those connections together and really say, okay, well, where is this place? Where, if I'm thinking about native trauma, where is it that I need to go to really kind of engage with natives and native life?
- [06:12]
B
Yeah. When you set out to write this book, you kind of had this idea. You're like, I'm gonna start checking out these monuments, these art galleries. Just, like, look at how this is all documented. How big was the scope when you started versus when you ended? Like, did you start bigger and pull it in? Or did you start with, like, two monuments? Then you were like, oh, my gosh, this is connected to that thing, and this is connected to that thing. Or maybe another version?
- [06:40]
A
Well, it's kind of a combination of all of that. And so let me take a little step back. Before I started this book, I was working on a book of fiction about a rebelling slave in Cuba. I bought a statue in Cuba, and I was trying to write this kind of fiction piece that this. This kind of statue would come into life. It was going nowhere, and people were like, yeah, we don't want this. We don't want this. 2017 happens. And I realized, like, wait a minute, I've been writing about art my whole life. And so there's moments in this book that kind of predate 2017 that were really pivotal, namely Monticello. Like, I was, you know, elementary school age kid when I went to Monticello for the first time, and I vividly remember that experience, and that is also captured here. So the answer is yes and no. Like, the scope was always big, but it was also very singular. And was also really about me. So there's places that I wish I went to that don't make the book, and there's places that really. It kind of came to me when I was there. Like, especially places like in Richmond, things that I saw, or even in Charlottesville, where the University of Virginia is. There's places that I didn't know I was going to see that I came upon. So the book is really kind of focused and really kind of thought out and really formulaic ways in terms of an outline, but also it gives room for. For nuance and exploration and surprise. And I think that's what I want people to experience with this book, this surreal kind of. Kind of engagement with white supremacy that often comes as a surprise.
- [08:12]
B
Yeah. Where would you. Where do you wish you could have gone or could have made the book?
- [08:16]
A
I wanted to go to Madeira, which is the islands off of Africa where sugarcane was first colonized and really kind of structured as like an entity to be kind of monetized. And so that's kind of, in a way, was. Was a huge kind of impetus for the transatlantic slave trade when they realized, like, okay, we. We can kind of cultivate this, and how can we get a large group of a labor force to kind of do it? And where could we have them do it? But those islands are really where it was first kind of cultivated in a way, as a large kind of mass produced crop.
- [08:54]
B
What to you is a monument? What defines a monument?
- [09:00]
A
It's a really good question. I think monuments could be a very fluid kind of concept in the sense that you have this physical structure. Oftentimes it's, you know, concrete, bronze, or, you know, some other sculpting kind of thing that we often associate with statuary. Right. But I think monuments are also really more expansive in that. Right. Monuments are often memories that we hold dear to ourselves. Right. These are. These are relics that we possess and pass down to each other. Right. And so I think monuments can be a number of things. So another really good example that strikes me, I just saw the Piano Lesson, which is a fascinating film that was directed by Malcolm Washington and starring John David Washington and others.
- [09:45]
B
And it's an August Wilson play.
- [09:47]
A
August Wilson is a master. Love, love, Brother Wilson. And really the piano itself is like a monument to that family. Right, Right. And so all of these things can kind of be monuments. So I think things that you. You hold dear, that you want to revere and that you want to kind of really convey a story to generations is what a monument is.
- [10:08]
B
Okay, so Then to you, what makes anything worthy of, like, public monument status? Like, where, where would you draw the line? Where should we be? You know, because, like, I think the question becomes people are people, and even some of the greats did pretty up things depending on who you are. Like, there's an argument against Martin Luther King having a monument because of the way that he treated women. Right. And so I'm wondering to you, a person who has thought and written about this, what it. How do you, how do you personally. You don't have to answer for anybody else, but how do you think about what is worthy of monument status and what should come down?
- [10:54]
A
Well, so I honestly, truly believe that it's up to the people, it's up to the societies that, that currently exist and live to decide what we should honor. Right. And so it's not necessarily about me, but if I had to say, I think things that really kind of speak to the collective experience of humanity without, you know, injury, without trauma. Right. And look, you, you brought this up. We're all flawed. Among you, the King, Martin Luther King is flawed. We're all flawed. And I think this book is not about, like, pointing the fingers and say, you're a bad person, you're a bad person. No, people do good and bad things. Right. And I'm really trying to kind of expose those things. And I'm not necessarily 100 going to always lean to say that this has to come down. Right. There's some things that I feel like, yes, absolutely, this is racist. This needs to come down. But Titus Kaphar, he actually mentions this, you know, frequently. He says we should amend these things. Right. In a sense that, look, okay, we can leave this up. These people were figures of history. But what else could we install here to provide context of who this person completely was or at least try to kind of create some sort of complete holistic view of this person. So I would air more in that direction in terms of thinking about, you know, who are the best representatives of humanity. Right. Because. Yeah. And so I think that's. That's really what's about. It's not about forwarding policies or political agendas or governments. I think those are where we go wrong when we talk about monuments. It's really about humanity. Who is, who is doing the best service of humanity at that time and even now. Right. Because, you know, sometimes we think about these figures and we go back to the ideas and we recognize that they didn't age well. Right. And as a result, I think we should provide context.
- [12:39]
B
Yeah. I think it's interesting to think about, like, these, like, public monuments, because that's part of your book. But another part is like some of the art that's in museums, like you go to Paris, you go to the Louvre, you go to Musee Thursday. And I was just thinking about, like, how that is almost harder to amend those things because there is a monetary value in some way associated with them. Which means, like, there's a capitalist bent to a piece of art. And all of a sudden if you tell the Louvre, you need to take this million dollar painting out because xyz, like that becomes a business decision in a way that like, sort of public works that honor people who are bad don't have that kind of monetary connection. So I'm wondering what, what kind of solutions you see in the art world. I know because. And I guess on top of that, the only way to become a valuable piece of art is to be told for other people to say that it is one. Right? Like it's like, like how all art is. I mean, yeah, like for people to say this book is great, then it gains value. Right? Like that's how art works. It has to have that word of mouth. No matter how much the marketing budget is, like, at some point people need to say that it's good. So I'm wondering like, how you've seen, see in the art world that the remedy working the amendment.
- [14:05]
A
So I think the answer is easy, is that you include more voices you now to say, look, when we talk about the Louvre, when you talk about the. Or say you talk about these masters, right? You're like, okay, that was their time. There was a moment where nothing else could be produced that necessarily reflected people that look like me, you know, in a more holistic, kind of humane way. But now we have the opportunity to kind of open the landscape, open the land, the art world for people to do different things, right? So you could have, you know, Titus Kaphar, you have Kerry James Marshall, you have Simone Lee, you have all of these incredible people who are pushing against the history of art and what it represented then and now, what it could kind of represent for us now. And I think, you know, towards the end of the book, I tried to kind of, you know, indicate what directions potentially we can go in and how this could potentially not necessarily correct, but amendment and allow for different perspectives.
- [15:01]
B
Yeah, I think it's interesting too, with museums because there's only so much space in a museum. And then you start to talk about, well, then what has to go.
- [15:11]
A
Mm, Well, I mean, I think One of the things that I'm never going to discount is the human imagination is our ability to figure it out. Right? Yeah. And I'm not. I'm not going to say, look, I have all the answers, but I think that, yeah, there are certain things that. Hey, look, I know this is incredible. I know it's worth so much, but guess what? Let's just put that in the warehouse.
- [15:34]
B
That's got to go.
- [15:35]
A
Let's just put it in the back.
- [15:37]
B
Like, I mean, I'm with you. I think things have to go. I'm not at all suggesting that things don't have to go. I just know that that's. All of a sudden, it's like, well, we're going to move. We going to move this. Like, Monet painted that. Like. And I don't really know this person you're trying to bring in here. I know how the vibes are.
- [15:56]
A
Yeah. Those are the conversations that I think we continue to need to have. Right. And so I think, look, they're not easy, but that's really how we gonna move forward. And these conversations, you know, when you get to the base of them, the root is white supremacy. You know, the reason. The reason why that was up and why there's nothing else here is white supremacy. So can we have that conversation?
- [16:16]
B
Yeah. I mean, so on the grounds of white supremacy, I mean, obviously you can only do so much in one book, but were. Did you ever consider broadening the scope of. In including other kinds of communities aside from black and. And in some small part, Native American communities? Because I was just thinking, like, white supremacy has its tentacles in all this shit, right? So I'm like, thinking, like, what about the memorial for Pearl Harbor? Like, is there weird racist shit going on there? Like, I'm just. I live in California, and so we have all of the missions, which you have to go to in fourth grade. And that's not. It's not great history for people who were living on the land that is now California, but was at the time Mexico. So I'm wondering, like, did you ever think about expanding into some of those other stories or. Or was. Were you focused?
- [17:12]
A
The answer is yes, absolutely. My mind is associative in that way where I'm always trying to piece together these puzzles. And I've actually been to Hawaii. I've been to Pearl harbor, and I did have some. Some interesting exchanges there in terms of, like, how, you know, people were treated there, how black people were treated there, how they all intersect. And, you know, we also have to agree that Hawaii is really Polynesia. Right. And white supremacy now says that Hawaii is the 50th state. Right. And so there's other elements of that, too. So, you know, I would love to kind of write another version of this or another version, you know, other versions. And. And. And kind of do what Cathy Park Hong talks about in Minor Feelings about speaking nearby. Right. In terms of, like, look, I am not of this community, right. You know, but I still want to kind of see how I can engage the humanity in that space, see how I can kind of reflect some of the beauty and brilliance that that exists therein. And how can I reflect that and associate that with my own experience and people who look like me?
- [18:15]
B
Yeah. One of the things you just mentioned is that you had some interesting conversations when you were at Pearl Harbor. And one of the things I really love about the book is that you sort of invoke some of these conversations you have with other visitors to these sites. What surprised you most about talking, like, when you were talking with folks?
- [18:32]
A
You know, it's really interesting. I mean, the book opens up in a surprising way. I wasn't surprised by what those folks said, but I was surprised most especially by how real and palpable Native trauma is today. When I went there, I was like, oh, y'all really don't like white people actively, you know what I'm saying? Like, and, like, I see it, I feel it. I had some conversations that couldn't make the book for whatever reason, and I trust my editor, you know, immensely. But there was a conversation I had in White. In South Dakota with a couple white people at some bars. One of the. One of my processes of kind of engaging with people, engaging with communities and going to bars and just kind of meeting other types of people, Right? And I was one of the few black faces everywhere, if I think I might only count it, like, five black people when I was there for, like, two weeks. And so I had one exchange where this couple was really. Well, meaning this white couple, and they were like, hey, we like black people. I was like, what? Okay, thank you. I appreciate that. And then I.
- [19:40]
B
And then they just walked up to you and said that, or were you talking to them?
- [19:43]
A
They were at the other end of the bar, and I was just there, this black man in this weird space. And I'm just trying not to be as awkward as possible and not to, like, have that show so much. And they were like, hey, look, we'll buy you a beer. Like, it's okay. Like, we. We actually like to see black people I was like, okay, you know, thanks. You know, I feel, I don't feel like a monkey at all. I don't feel like. I'm feeling like I'm in some sort of in cage zoo. And then there was a. Another moment where I, I actually kind of inserted this in the conversation. I was like, hey, look. And I asked the woman, I was like, you know, don't take this the wrong way, but, you know, I feel weird. People look at me weird here. I know I'm black. Like, what is that? What is that about? You know? You know, how, how do, how do you, how do you guys see us? How do you see natives? They were like, oh, no, no, no, no, no. We like black people. You know, we don't like natives. They're like, black know. They're like Mexicans. Like, to you guys. I was like, oh, okay, cool. So, you know, thanks for talking to me.
- [20:37]
B
Wow.
- [20:38]
A
Yeah. She was like, yeah, we, we, we, yeah, we like black people. We don't like natives. You know, I was like, oh, got it.
- [20:45]
B
So. Because they only said that because there's not a lot of black people there.
- [20:51]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [20:52]
B
I'm sure if there are a lot of black people, they would have problems with black people.
- [20:55]
A
And so, yeah, there were so many moments like that. Some that made the book that some didn't, but it was just really like these, these wonderful moments of just astonishment, just a real experience of being black in the space.
- [21:09]
B
Did you tell them you were writing a book?
- [21:11]
A
Sometimes I did, sometimes I didn't. And some people were really guarded. There was another moment in South Dakota where if you ever been to Rapid City, if you've ever been to Mount Rushmore, you have to typically fly into Rapid City. It's like the main city there. And Rapid City calls it the City of the Presidents. And so every kind of corner in that city has a life size statue of a president. And when I was there, there was one who was notably missing. And you can kind of take. He was exceptional in the sense that he was the singular one. I think he is there now. But he wasn't there. And there was. Who?
- [21:48]
B
Grover Cleveland?
- [21:49]
A
Not Grover. You're close. There's a guy named Barry who wasn't. Who didn't. Who wasn't there. And there was a lot of hoopla. And so it was like, wow. Okay, this is interesting.
- [22:04]
B
That's fascinating. Okay, we're going to take a quick break and then I've got more questions. Hey, y'all, Happy New Year. Same bookish you, I hope. I wanted to quickly tell you about what's going on and how you can support the work of this show. As you may know, I have a Patreon. It's called the stacks pack@patreon.com the stacks. And it's a bookish community complete with a very active discord, where you get monthly bonus episodes of virtual book club meetup. And right now we have some special offers going on all month through the end of January. When you join the Stacks Pack, you get our reading tracker, you get to vote in the Stacky Awards, and you get a shout out on this show. That perk is going to be no longer starting February 1st. So now's the time you get all of that for just $5 a month at patreon.com the stacks. If that doesn't sound like you, I also have a newsletter called Unstacked over at Tracy Thomas substack.com where I tell you about all the books I'm reading. I give you personal hot takes about pop culture. I even rank every book I read each month. And In December of 2024, I actually ranked every single book I read from least to most favorites. You can find that and so much more over at Tracy Thomas substack. Com. If you love this show and you want to make sure that you hear it every single week, those are two incredible ways to support my work and I really appreciate it. All right, we're back. I want to talk to you about education because you have a really great chapter, sort of right smack dab in the middle of the book, early middle. And it's about your education. It kind of starts with you in New Orleans, but eventually we get you at the University of New Orleans and then you transfer to Morehouse. And one of the things I thought was so interesting is that you sort of like found your love of, I wouldn't say of like, literature, but of, like, discussing literature, maybe at University of New Orleans, talking about Jane Eyre. Right?
- [24:11]
A
Correct.
- [24:12]
B
A book I hate. But I'm so glad that you and you have this, like, passionate exchange with your teacher over it over the course of the semester or whatever. And your teacher is basically like, listen, you got to transfer out of this school. Like, your classmates are not going to bring you the rigorous engagement around the text that you. That you need. So you leave, you go to Morehouse, and you get there and you're like, I don't need to take history. And your teacher's like, okay, you took European history, boo boo. And like, Europeans didn't start the world. So you have to take, like, Morehouse history, which is Afrocentric, it sounds like, or at least world centric. And all of that is to say you then become a teacher. You teach all sorts of different things, including art history. At one point, out of nowhere, straight from the book, which I love, it's like ready made art history class. But one of the things you talk about when you went to Morehouse is that you all read a lot of the problematic faves, but you read them with this lens of the black history, the black experience, global history, global experience, which is to say that you read them in context of the world. How does that inform the work that you do, the work that you did in this book? Like, how were you thinking of contextualizing these pieces, these people, these street names, these monuments? Talk about it.
- [25:45]
A
Well, you know, thank you first for that, for that kind of lead in. I mean, it was a long one.
- [25:52]
B
I gotta work on it.
- [25:53]
A
No, no, no, I get it. No, it makes a lot of sense in terms of, like, how I learned, how I became a teacher and how I write. And so I think about that, like, when people ask me who I am, I'm a teacher who writes, right. And in that respect, I never kind of forget what it means to be an educator. Right. But I also studied the craft of writers and trying to figure out, like, how am I going to disseminate this? And one of the things that I tell my. My students all the time is that especially when you're writing nonfiction, especially when you're writing memoir, is you really got to be as specific as possible. You really want to kind of detail your life experience that no one else can kind of write it. No one else could kind of say these things. This is your fingerprint, right? And as a result of that, I really kind of went inward, talked about my experience. But knowing that my experience is the black experience, I also have to always bring that with me as well. Right. And so that experience at Morehouse are those experiences, rather. I had many experiences like that in Morehouse. Really kind of always allowed me to step back and be more critical of whatever I was receiving and try to find myself. Me as Irvin Weathersby, and also me as black America and as a black American to kind of figure that part out. Where do we fit in this story, right? Where are we not mentioned in this story? You know, how do we figure out where we are in the periphery? So even when I think about history, I always think about dates. And I always, like, in my head, I'm like, okay, well, where am I At where are my ancestors at within this timeline? Right. And so that's what I try to do within this book. I think sometimes I don't always work in a linear fashion and I don't think that's how the brain works. Right. But I try to figure out these, these associations and in a way just try to create something that, that is engaging, that also educates.
- [27:42]
B
Yeah. Okay, I have a few follow up questions. First of all, I want to say I'm currently reading the massive biography of Reagan right now.
- [27:51]
A
Okay.
- [27:51]
B
And one of the things that I love about it and that I just broadly love about reading biographies is how really good ones do that situating of like where other people were or like what was going on. And because Reagan was basically alive for the whole 20th century, he was born in 1911 and died in 2004. So like, it's a good, it's a long run. It's like you're getting this whole century but through the lens of like this one person. And it's really fascinating. Anyways, that's just a plug. I'm really into it. I don't know why I thought I was going to hate it. And unfortunately I like it quite a bit. It's 32 hours on audio. It's like 890 pages. Like, it's an insane book. I did not want to like it. I wanted to listen to the first hour and be like, gotta go. Anyways, this is not about you. Sorry, that was about me, but about you. If you could teach, like, if you. They're going to give you whatever you need to teach a course on a problematic favorite person place book, whatever. What's the thing that you would most like to tackle with students?
- [29:01]
A
Oh man, that is, that's a really great question.
- [29:05]
B
Thank you.
- [29:06]
A
That's a really. I mean, because I have too many answers. I. One of my thing is like, it's hard for me to say one, one specific person.
- [29:14]
B
What popped into your head? What, what, what's, what's the thing that kind of just first jumped at you? I'm sure there's lots of answers.
- [29:20]
A
Well, the easy answer right now is, is what's happening in my household. My son is 5 years old and he is neurodiverse. And one of the manifestations of his neurodiversity is that he can read at like a fourth, fifth grade level. And so he is just like plowing through books. And one of his fixations right now is the President's.
- [29:42]
B
Tell him to read this Reagan biography.
- [29:45]
A
I'll come back I was going to come back to the rigging. So he can, like, list all the presidents by name in order. He knows, like, when the. Who's the first to drive in a car. So. So I will say, you know, the. The thing that I would really try to do is really try to educate him in ways that. That he can really see who these people are in more nuanced ways. One of which is like, Abraham Lincoln, right? He is, like 100. Like, he was great. And it's like, yeah, but there's other things here, too. Like, there's something like.
- [30:21]
B
But he's. How old is the kid? Five.
- [30:22]
A
My kid's five. And so. But he's, like, clear on Andrew Jackson. He was like, he made the natives leave. He's bad. He's bad. And so it's kind of like he has some of this understanding, but really trying to. I would. I would really, if I can approach this is really try to think about how do we talk about some of these major figures in history and how do we tell them? How do we, you know, include that to children or convey that to children? But another easy, big answer is really trying to convey racism to a child.
- [30:54]
B
That's easy.
- [30:57]
A
Easy for me to say. That's what I would want to do.
- [30:59]
B
I see.
- [31:00]
A
Right. Because I think we're approaching that. That space is like, you know, there's. There's moments he's reading about Martin Luther King. He was like, martin Luther King was bad because he was fighting. And he was. We don't fight. I was like, okay, well, fight means this. And like, this is what he was fighting for. He was fighting for freedom. He was fighting for liberation. And now trying to figure out, well, and he's going to ask again, like, well, wait, why does he need to fight? Like, what was he really fighting for? And so trying to really start to kind of engage that. And so my life's work, honestly, I hope, is really to try to dismantle, you know, some of these ideas of white supremacy and racism that we can kind of, you know, move beyond where we currently are. And it's. It's. It's a challenge. But, like, I don't. Yeah, I don't know any other way to live. Like, I would like to be as free as possible in my lifetime, you know, if I. If that's okay, you know.
- [31:52]
B
No, that's great with me. That's fine. I'm fine with that. You might have to ask the manager, but for me, it's great. It's great. Great.
- [31:58]
A
You know, can I can I push?
- [32:00]
B
Can I live?
- [32:01]
A
Yeah, like, you know, I, I get my ancestors had to deal with certain things, but we also have to deal with certain things. And, and how can I not, you know, wait on that slow movement of justice and all of these kind of weird kind of sayings that people have, like, oh, it takes the time to kind of get to progress. It's like, I only got one life, you know, and I want to live it as, as completely as possible.
- [32:24]
B
So that was a really big answer though. You know, I'm gonna push you and ask you to pick one person, place, book, movie, one thing.
- [32:38]
A
Okay. Okay.
- [32:40]
B
You can do it.
- [32:41]
A
I can. I can. You know, I, I, I'm gonna give you an answer and I'm not gonna love it because I, I know that there's gonna, that one book, one place. You know what if I had to pick a place? I currently live in New York. Right. Yeah. You know what? I would focus. This is still not a great answer. I still don't love it.
- [33:07]
B
You can already tell it's too big. I literally can see in your face the answer is too big. Do you want to hear mine? I'll give you an example. Mine. If I could have the time and resources to teach one class about one problematic favorite kind of thing, I would do a course on Gone with the Wind. I would do the movie, I would do the book. I would do the history of when the book came out versus when the movie came out versus when the book is set and how like the 1930s of the film informed this, like, post depression era performance of, you know, the South Rising. Again, that's what I would do.
- [33:42]
A
I think that's a great one. And I think people have doing that one, and I think that's a, that's a really, really incredible one. You know what, what I would do, and this might be some people may not like this answer. Some people that look like me. One thing that really annoys me, and this is really the propensity that we have for the N word. And I really feel like we're going to look back on this period and be like, you know what, we could have let that go a little bit earlier. Right? Language evolves, right? We've been called many, many things. And I get it, like, it's this idea of this insulation or of ourselves and pushing other people out, but I don't get the idea of like, how we respond to it when someone else says it. It's almost like we are just reactionary, like dogs or like animals, like, oh, this is all it takes for you. Me. For me to get upset. And it's like. But the reason I say that is because I think of my ancestors. I think of my great grandmother, Mama Nancy, and the stuff that she had to deal with. And I think about my parents being especially my father and my uncles, like, people spitting in their faces, like, I. And because of this. And, like, it's not a word that was in my household. It's not a word that I'm not gonna be mad at someone for using. But it still feels weird to me every time I hear. It's like, why are we doing this? This is. It seems real ridiculous. And look, I get it. Oprah, you know, has a similar feeling. Jay Z doesn't. I know a lot of people are gonna be like, this dude is, like, an elitist. And like, okay, cool, fine. You call me what you want, but I just don't like it.
- [35:11]
B
That's a. This is a good. I would take that course. I would take that course. Okay, I'm gonna come off that now because you did officially answer the question. It took us a while, but we got there.
- [35:20]
A
It took us a while.
- [35:23]
B
I want to talk to you, though, about audience. There is a point in the book. I believe it's at the end of that education chapter where you really address the audience directly. I think it's the only time you really, like, use that convention. But I'm curious who you were thinking of was the you in this book?
- [35:42]
A
Who.
- [35:42]
B
Who you're writing to and. And if that shifted at all for you and just, I guess, audience, question mark.
- [35:50]
A
All right, so, yeah, I'm gonna give you, like, a real cheesy answer first, and then I'm gonna tell you, like, the whole. The. The. The publishing answer.
- [36:00]
B
Okay. Okay.
- [36:02]
A
I mean, I think the cheesy answer. And this is really true, honestly. When I get down to write, I'm always trying to be in conversation with my grandmother, and she is the person who the book is dedicated to, and she is the person who's always told me, like, at the end of the day, I hear her voice telling me, look, just say it plainly and say it right. Just get it right. And I'm like, I'm trying to write things that she would enjoy. Right.
- [36:24]
B
This is the grandmother who wrote you the story of what happened on the roof.
- [36:30]
A
Correct?
- [36:30]
B
Okay. I won't say more. That's not a spoiler, but that's this grandmother. Okay.
- [36:34]
A
Yes. Yes. And so I'm always hearing her voice. I'm always trying to channel her Voice. I'm always trying to write and in the way in which she kind of told me and taught me. Right. So that's just. That's the easy, cheesy answer, but it's true that that's where I start now. Where I start and where I go is different. Now, this book especially, I think, is really for anyone who's committed to racial justice. I truly believe that is the case. But I think it's also for college students. I think it's for high school students. I was really trying to. But I also think it's for Americans. I think it's for everyone who lives in this country who is unaware of the history. It's for all those people who are trying to find answers beyond these banned books. Right? So I think it's really for every person now who is committed to trying to have a better future. And so whatever that looks like, whether you're white, black, Asian or other, if you want to have a better country, a better understanding, a better way of. Of engaging with each other, I think this book is for you. And so that's who I was writing it to. I was writing it to those people. I also was writing to black people, especially, because I wanted to kind of make sure that, hey, look, this is one of us speaking to us and also speaking for us on behalf of this country.
- [37:54]
B
Okay, I'm going to ask you to do a little bit of prognosticating. What do you think happens now as we are on the eve of a second Trump presidency, when it comes to specifically monuments? I'm. I think, less the art itself, because I think there is some. I mean, I hope curation that happens at a lot of these art institutions that might work outside of government oversight, I guess. But, like, what do you see? Do you have any sense of what this might mean? Because the reason I'm asking it this way, I guess, is because, like, in. In the book where we start in New Orleans, you. There's a part where you talk about a whole database of street names and monuments and things that maybe might be getting changed and. And what the options are and what it means and what it looks like. And that, to me, was, first of all, very surprising. But that's government stuff. And I'm just wondering, like, does it get worse? Does it get better? Does it say the same? Do we have these. Do you think we're gonna have these fights in the streets again over Lee and Jackson? Or, like, what do you see? What do you see? You're the expert.
- [39:19]
A
Well, you know, I think we're all experts, but of living right. And.
- [39:23]
B
But you wrote the book.
- [39:25]
A
I did. I did write the book.
- [39:26]
B
I wrote the book on it. Get a little chesty. Okay?
- [39:28]
A
You're the fucking expert. I am. But I also want. This book is also want to empower everyone to be like, look, you are the expert as well. You don't have to have taught a class. You don't have to have gone to a bunch of schools to engage with the world around you. Right. So I also want that. But if I had to say, I actually want conflict. I think that we need to embrace a conflict. Is. Where is the fulcrum of change? Right. You know, so I hope that after that feeling of. In November when. When. When the election wasn't. Wasn't one, you know, that feeling was really defeating. I think some people are still in that space. Right. But I hope that this book. I hope that other books, like, it really kind of invigorate us and be like, okay, get back to work. We got to keep fighting. And I want conflict. I want this book to be banned. I want that platform. I want people to be able to say, okay, don't read this book so I can pass it out freely. And, yeah, I hope that there is more conflict. I think there's going to be way more chaos. I think that's obvious. And with that chaos, I think there's going to be moments where we can inject change and correctives and push forward. Look, there's the Mellon Foundation. There's a moment in the book where I talk about the Mellon foundation has created this incredible fund to fund these public monuments project. And this is like the biggest source that they've ever. This is the biggest funding source that they've ever done. Right. For this. So there's a lot of money and a lot of push behind these things. So I just hope that artists are going to get more Runway to kind of express themselves. I hope that museums are going to continue to open up. I hope that the price of art goes down. I hope that billionaires do not stop, you know, keep, you know, using them as tax shelters. Yeah. And I hope that beyond. Beyond it all, is that we can kind of continue to fight white supremacy. Is this book is not just about art, really is about racial justice. And so I want to keep that fight up. And so I hope that's the case.
- [41:34]
B
So on that same sort of grounds, I think the book. Early in the book, you talk about, like, the sort of, like, the idea of progress.
- [41:42]
A
Yeah.
- [41:43]
B
And what it means that a statue of someone, some, some slave owning white person, some Confederate general, whoever. Xyz, fill in the blank, might come down. And in the same week, month, day, a black person could be killed in the streets. And so there's not really a question. I just sort of want you maybe to, to tell me what you make of this idea of progress.
- [42:18]
A
Look, it's an incredible, like, mind, to be honest with you, because, like, we have, we have Juneteenth, right? But we still celebrate Columbus Day.
- [42:27]
B
Right?
- [42:27]
A
And so it's like, how, how are those things? How do we hold those two things at the same time? Right? How do we celebrate MLK Day? And like, he's on the mall, but then we still have Mount Rushmore and all of these other kind of races and white supremacists. And so I think it's really an incredible thing that we have to do to figure out, like, how do we get to a space where we, we are not just kind of believing lies or. And it's a really strange thing to really question a liar. We're like, do you really believe this? Or is this really like just something that you're trying to use as motivation to control people? Right. And so, yeah, I don't, I don't have that answer. I think progress is happening. Right, right. Progress is. You can see it. But as I also mentioned in the book, the wealth gap is still the wealth gap.
- [43:17]
B
Yeah.
- [43:18]
A
Right. And so, you know, we still have these failed states in West Africa and Haiti, you know, that are consequences of the transatlantic slave trade. Like, these are still actively ongoing disasters. Right? So, like, how do we kind of really address those things? But what, what? While not just kind of using Juneteenth as some sort of virtual signal. Right. There was a moment last, well, this year actually, where I went to the beach with my family on Juneteenth. And it was, it was cool. It was good. It was great. But there was like these. It was just we're surrounded by white people and we're like, wow, like, that's interesting. Like, what is this real. What is this holiday about? Like, is this going to evolve into something else? Is. Should it evolve into something else? The answer is yes, that, like, I truly am going to fight for reparations to the day I die. Right. And it's like, is there some sort of repair that can be done versus giving us a day off and saying, you can go to the beach? Right. You know, I, I still don't know how I feel. How it feels. Well, I, I had this feeling when a white person Wished me happy Juneteenth. And it's like, thank you. Thank you, I guess. And sure. Yes.
- [44:38]
B
Yeah.
- [44:39]
A
So that's what progress feels like. I think it's still kind of tenuous.
- [44:43]
B
And progress feels like a white person wishing you happy 19.
- [44:47]
A
And it's like, oh, yeah, yeah, we have a holiday to you. Yeah. But we still. The wealth that you have and all of that stuff that you continue to flaunt and winning elections and being a billionaire is really a result of my ancestors free labor. Like, I still know that to be true.
- [45:06]
B
And thank you. Thank you for wishing me happy Juneteenth.
- [45:10]
A
Yeah. Okay.
- [45:11]
B
I do want to ask you about another book that comes up in your book, but I think also probably has come up a lot in your process with this, which is how the Word Is Passed by Clint Smith, fellow son of New Orleans, fellow writer of history, of space, of white supremacy, of how we hold space for these things. How were you thinking about that book as you were working on this? Had you read it? Did it help you? Did it. Did you have to, like, hide it in a locker so that it didn't influence you at all? Like, I think the books are different when you read them, but I think when you hear about them, they do sound really similar. And I'm just curious, like, for you, how that. How that book sort of played out in your process.
- [45:54]
A
All right, cool. If I could be honest, is that.
- [45:57]
B
Yeah.
- [45:58]
A
So I absolutely read it, and I absolutely thought that, okay, this is it. I don't have a book anymore. This guy wrote my book. I was like, I want to shoot this guy. I don't want anyone to read this book. What is he doing? And so that was my initial thought. I was in the. I was in the throes of, like, early drafts at the time, and I since evolved to realize that this was an incredible book, that he really was, like, priming the pump for us. All right. And so it wasn't just his book. It was Imani Perry's south to America.
- [46:31]
B
That was the other one that I think is also, like, sort of in conversation with your book in a different. I feel like if how the Word is Passed and south to America Had a Baby, it would be your book.
- [46:43]
A
Okay. I like that.
- [46:44]
B
Like, I feel like they're doing similar things on different ends because her book feels more like cultural and his feels more like historical, physical places. And your book sort of does both of those things in different ways.
- [46:59]
A
I love that. Thank you, Tracy. I think you're right.
- [47:03]
B
Happy Tuesday.
- [47:06]
A
I was in conversation Absolutely. With those books, even Ta Nehisi Coates new book. The message, I think there's a moment right now which I think is awesome, is that black folks are starting to kind of look at the world around them and really travel and see and really try to interpret our experience in connection to the. To the larger world. Right. And I think that's what my book is doing. And after I talked to my age and after talk to my editor, they were like, no, this is actually a really great thing. Like, this is. This is like he is opening a lane for people to be interested in what you have to say. And my book, as you say, is actually different from all of those, Right?
- [47:47]
B
Yeah, it's.
- [47:47]
A
It's. My book is focused on art, is some history, but it's also really more like a memoir.
- [47:53]
B
Yeah, more.
- [47:54]
A
More. Yeah, more than. Than theirs. It, you know, is. And. And more than Ta Nehisi, which is like Maui's reportage type of kind of engagement. And so I think there's space for us all, and I would love to kind of be in conversation with them all and to kind of give us all of this language. Right. The more books we have like this, the more we get the language of Revolution.
- [48:15]
B
Yeah. I mean, I certainly think there's space for all of you, since I've read all four of those books now, and that kind of book I just absolutely love. I did. I did have a little chuckle, though, when you were at. I don't know if this is a spoiler, but you were at Monticello, and the people you're talking to, you're like, what brought you here? And they were like, oh, we read how the word is fast.
- [48:33]
A
Every single one of them.
- [48:34]
B
Other people were like, us too. It's our book club pick.
- [48:37]
A
And I was like, okay, cool. Like, I. Clint's out here. Like, he's out here. Yes.
- [48:42]
B
That is Clint's. Clint's Power. I guess we're almost out of time, but there's a few things I have to ask you about. One is the title. Where did it come from? In Open Contempt. How did you pick it? Was it always the title? Did you have another one called, like, Black Man, White Monuments or something?
- [49:01]
A
I love that I did. It wasn't Black Man White Monument. It wasn't that. I open content and open contempt was there for a while. And. And this honestly goes back to my time at Morehouse. One of the really gifts of being at Morehouse, at an HBCU especially, but I could talk about my experience at Morehouse is That the text I was reading in African American history, I had the fortunate experience of reading virtually every slave narrative. And so I have them all cataloged in my head. And one thing, even if I went back to answer that question, I would probably teach a. I would probably teach a course on the power of Frederick Douglass and just how he's such a. Like a outsized influence on the shape of America.
- [49:48]
B
I hate to tell you this, but Clint Smith also loves Frederick Douglass. You two are twins.
- [49:55]
A
I love Clint. We were raised on the same water.
- [50:00]
B
I love Clint. I love you. It's all. I just think it's so funny, like, your brains are, like, related or something. Thing.
- [50:06]
A
I. You know, we're two smart guys from New Orleans. Right.
- [50:08]
B
It'd be worse people to have brains related to. Right.
- [50:11]
A
Yeah.
- [50:11]
B
Anyway. Sorry, go ahead.
- [50:13]
A
Yeah. But Frederick Douglass is this incredible icon to the point that, you know, when he was publishing his books were outselling everything. He was the national bestseller. Right. And so, you know, when I think about all of, you know, the father or the. The origin stories of black letters in America, I think about Frederick Douglass. And so, you know, as I was going through thinking about trying to. How to honor him, I was reading through some of his autobiographies, and I came across this passage that I thought really crystallized what I was trying to create for this book. Right. So there's a moment in one of his autobiographies where he is describing what it felt like to recognize that he was a slave to hit the moment when he was like, wait a second, like, they're about to sell me. Like, I'm about to be on an auction block, like, with animals and other cattle and other, like, wait a minute. And he was very young, but it was that surreal moment of understanding where he uses the phrase in open contempt, how we were reduced to beast, held in open contempt of our humanity. And that is the feeling that I want this book to convey. I want us to kind of open our eyes and really become aware of. Of how open this hatred is for us has been and seems to continue to be that way. And so we're going to push forward. We're going to keep pushing, you know, beyond that hatred.
- [51:39]
B
Okay. We call this a hard shift around here. How did you write the book? Snacks and beverages. Where were you? How many hours a day on your phone, on a computer, watching TV in silence? Tell me about it.
- [51:54]
A
All right. So I had a bad idea to have two kids while writing this book.
- [51:59]
B
It's always a bad idea to have kids. Unfortunately, there's never a good time.
- [52:03]
A
Never a good time. So I had two kids, and that was really, really challenging. So that means that meant I stayed up late, I got up early. That was kind of the bulk of kind of writing this book. But I will say that I write everything longhand. Like, I don't like computers. Don't. My brain is not going to function that way.
- [52:21]
B
I'm only using notepad, loose leaf.
- [52:25]
A
I'm using notebooks, and I usually use a moleskin, bound moleskin. I usually use a gel pen. That's one of my favorites. That kind of flows a little bit easier. And I write all the time, whenever I can. Right. And so I don't believe. I'm not gonna say I don't believe, but the way my life is structured is that I gotta take time wherever I can get it.
- [52:47]
B
Okay.
- [52:47]
A
Right. So that's in the morning, that's late at night. I was also teaching. So really I would. I would just try to figure out, okay, where do I get an hour? Where I get to where I get 3. Nothing romanticized about it. You just kind of get into it. And this is one thing that I do, though. I do outline in a way that I know every day I'm showing up to write this part. I'm writing this scene, or I'm researching this topic. I'm researching this, this, you know, work of art. And so that I know that, okay, I'm finished with that section, I can go to the next thing. And so that helps me kind of compartmentalize my writing. I'm focusing on this. That's what I'm doing. That's how I'm gonna get there. I had, you know, whether it depends on how you. How you. How you perceive it, how other people perceive it. But my editor, the editor who acquired my book, became an agent, and then I got another editor. So that also kind of prolonged the process in a beautiful way. So, yeah, I was actually fortunate for that to happen. Like, my. My acquiring agent or editor is a friend now. And my editor, he just happened to win the Pulitzer Prize, you know, right before, you know, he got to my book, I was like, okay, I guess I. I landed in decent hands.
- [54:01]
B
What book did he win the Pulitzer for?
- [54:02]
A
He won the Pulitzer for. His name is George Floyd.
- [54:05]
B
Oh, my. A book that. The moment that I read it, I said, this book will win the Pulitzer. So I believe I had that. Congratulations to your editor. And it's a great book. It's a great book.
- [54:16]
A
It is a great book.
- [54:18]
B
But you didn't Answer. Snacks and beverages.
- [54:20]
A
Oh, snacks and beverages. I usually drink tea.
- [54:25]
B
What kind of tea? How do you take it?
- [54:27]
A
I usually do. I'll do. At night. I would do like a. Like a lavender type of thing. Something really fragrant. Yeah, something fragrant. In the morning, I'm definitely going to get my coffee. Snacks. You know, I don't do snacks too much, actually. When I'm in the throes of writing, when I'm into it, like, really, I often forget to eat. I'm so consumed. Yeah. Where it's just like, I'm really manic, and it's like, oh, damn, I haven't eaten today. And my wife is like, what's wrong with you? It's like, I don't know. Like, I. I'm writing. I'm sorry, but I will say music. I use music a lot. I use incense a lot. I like to kind of create this kind of expansive type of experience, so my brain could kind of kind of go where it needs to go. And the music that I listen to often is, like, jazz or just music without lyrics. Christian Scott was like, you're gonna say Christian rock?
- [55:22]
B
I was like, that has lyrics also.
- [55:24]
A
No, no. Christian Scott is. Is probably the person I listen to the most. He's. He's an incredible horn player from New Orleans, and he just has this really incredible fusion of sound, of jazz, of hip hop, or really. He doesn't really like to call, you know, music jazz or what he does jazz. But yeah. So, I mean, it just really. It brought me home in a way. I used to play the trumpet. Like, New Orleans is a very musical city. Music does. It activates me in so many ways. Like, I hear brass band, like, you know, a couple blocks away. I'm gonna get goosebumps. Like, it just. It just really kind of activates me and just reminds me of home and po boys and just my.
- [56:05]
B
I love it. I'm gonna let you off the hook without having a snack, though. I am making an asterisk next to your name that says person, personal enemy.
- [56:16]
A
I could lie to you.
- [56:17]
B
No, it's. I don't. I. I don't want it, actually. It's fine. Another famous person who doesn't really snack on the show, except for Clementines, is Clint Smith. You guessed it. Like, you two are from fucking New Orleans and you don't eat anything. What a nightmare for the rest of us. Like, the great. One of the great food cities in the world, and you two are eating Clementine's and air. What a nightmare. Okay, we already talked about the books that are in conversation with, with this one. So I have just one more question for you, which is if you could have one person dead or alive read this book, who would you want it to be?
- [56:52]
A
I would love to hear what, what Jimmy Baldwin had to say about what, what I'm doing. Because I mean, I, I more than, more than anything you know of not just a syntax, not just like, you know, the scope and the structure of, of his words and paragraphs, but what I really am forever indebted to is like his courage and like to say what needs to be said on the page to not to not be afraid to do what needs to be done. Like, I truly want to embody that in all things. And I hope that he sees that, that I learned from him well.
- [57:28]
B
So I love that. All right, folks, this is Irvin Withersby Jr. His book is called An Open Contempt. It is out in the world now as you're listening to this. Irvin, do you do the audiobook?
- [57:42]
A
I do. I did it. Yeah. It was incredible.
- [57:45]
B
I didn't listen to it. I haven't listened to. I read it off the page but because we're recording this before the book came out. But folks, if you're audiobook people, check it out, Irvin's going to read it to you. Or you can read it off the page and be like me. We can be twins. Irvin, thank you so much for being here. This was wonderful.
- [57:59]
A
Thank you, Tracy.
- [58:00]
B
Appreciate you and everyone else. We will see you in the stacks. All right, y'all, that does it for us today. Thank you so much for listening and thank you again to Irvin Weathersby Jr. For joining the show. And thank you to Ulza no Negron for helping to make this conversation possible. Don't forget the Stacks Book Club pick for January is the Ministry of Time by Kellyanne Bradley. And Jay Wortham will be back to discuss this book with all of us on Wednesday, January 29th. If you love the show and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com the stacks to join the Stacks Pack and you can check out my newsletter@tracy thomas.substack.com make sure you're subscribed to the Stacks wherever you listen to your podcast podcasts. And if you're listening through Apple Podcasts or Spotify, please leave us a rating and a review. For more from the Stacks, follow us on social media at the Stacks Pod, on Instagram, threads and TikTok and check out our website, thestaxpodcast.com this episode of the Stacks was edited by Christian Duenas with production assistance from Megan Caballero. Our graphic designer is Robin McRate, and our theme music is from Tagirages. The Stacks is created and produced by me, Tracy Thomas.