Episode Summary: The Stacks Ep. 355 - Scrambling Queer History with Michael Waters

Release Date: January 22, 2025

In this compelling episode of The Stacks, host Traci Thomas welcomes journalist and author Michael Waters to discuss his insightful book, The Other Olympians: Fascism, Queerness and the Making of Modern Sports. The conversation delves into the intricate intersections of queer history, sports, and politics, particularly focusing on the often-overlooked narratives of early trans and intersex athletes during the tumultuous era surrounding the 1936 Berlin Olympics.

Acknowledgment of Los Angeles Wildfires

The episode begins with Traci acknowledging the devastating wildfires in Los Angeles, expressing gratitude for the safety of her family and highlighting the impact on the community and colleagues at The Stacks. She emphasizes the importance of supporting organizations like Inclusive Action, which is providing financial assistance to outdoor workers affected by the fires. This heartfelt introduction sets a tone of empathy and community support before transitioning into the main discussion.

Timestamp: [00:00] - [04:18]

Introduction to Michael Waters and His Work

Traci introduces Michael Waters, outlining his focus on the relationship between sports identity and history. She provides an overview of his latest book, The Other Olympians, which uncovers the stories of early trans and intersex athletes and examines how they navigated gender complexities in the competitive sports landscape of the 20th century.

Notable Quote:

Traci Thomas [04:18]: "Michael is a journalist and author whose work examines the relationship between sports identity and history."

Timestamp: [04:18] - [05:21]

Discovering Jenyette Kobach: Early Trans Athlete

Michael Waters discusses how he unearthed the story of Jenyette Kobach, a Czech sprinter who transitioned from female to male in 1935. He explains the research process involved in exploring queer history through archived newspaper articles, highlighting the significance of Kobach's prominence in sports and the subsequent media attention following his gender transition.

Notable Quote:

Michael Waters [05:41]: "I think what struck me about Kobach's story is just that he was quite famous... he really became a vehicle for the public in the 1930s to just like, think about gender."

Timestamp: [05:21] - [08:23]

Media Sensationalism and Public Perception

The conversation shifts to how Kobach's transition was covered by the media, comparing it to contemporary figures like Caitlyn Jenner. Michael notes that while Kobach received significant coverage, it differed in tone and intent, often sensationalized rather than part of a broader, respectful conversation about gender identity.

Notable Quote:

Michael Waters [08:44]: "There was an element of like sensationalism to the way that he was covered."

Timestamp: [08:23] - [09:59]

Avery Brundage and the 1936 Berlin Olympics

Traci brings up Avery Brundage, a key figure in the Olympics with Nazi sympathies, questioning his role in gender surveillance policies. Michael elaborates on Brundage's influence and the broader Nazi impact on the Olympics, particularly how it led to the introduction of sex testing for female athletes, a policy rooted in both misogyny and fascist ideology.

Notable Quote:

Traci Thomas [10:41]: "I also sort of the broader story where... Avery Brundage... I just... sort of the why about these athletes."

Timestamp: [10:41] - [36:48]

The Origins of Gender Surveillance in Sports

Michael provides an in-depth analysis of how the 1936 Berlin Olympics became a pivotal moment for gender surveillance in sports. He discusses the role of Wilhelm Knoll, a Nazi sports doctor, who advocated for physical examinations of female athletes to "weed out" those he deemed unfit, laying the groundwork for modern sex testing policies. Michael emphasizes the patriarchal and misogynistic underpinnings of these policies, noting that male athletes were never subjected to similar scrutiny.

Notable Quotes:

Michael Waters [17:06]: "When I say that, I especially mean... Is it fair to exclude them? I just think that these exclusionary policies are not fair."

Michael Waters [35:56]: "There's never been like any kind of sex testing policy for male athletes at the Olympics."

Timestamp: [17:06] - [36:48]

Navigating Historical Language and Identity

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the challenges of accurately representing historical figures' gender identities using contemporary language. Michael explains his careful approach to labeling Kobach, balancing historical accuracy with present-day understandings of gender and sexuality. He reflects on the absence of terms like "trans" and "intersex" in the 1930s and the complexities this poses for modern representations.

Notable Quote:

Michael Waters [18:08]: "I have really struggled because I want to... not impose too much language onto him."

Timestamp: [17:42] - [22:11]

The Impact of the 1936 Olympics on Gender Policies

Traci relates her personal fascination with the Nazis and the 1936 Olympics, probing further into how Nazi ideologies influenced gender policies in sports. Michael elaborates on the failed boycott movement against the Berlin Olympics and the persistence of Nazi sympathizers within the International Olympic Committee, which ultimately allowed the Games to proceed and set precedents for gender surveillance in athletics.

Notable Quote:

Michael Waters [25:15]: "The 1936 Olympics... really is, in large part because this was like a moment of sort of, like, fascism on the upswing."

Timestamp: [25:15] - [36:48]

Personal Insights and Writing Process

The conversation takes a personal turn as Traci inquires about Michael's relationship with sports and his writing habits. Michael shares that while he's not a sports enthusiast, his interest lies in the bureaucratic aspects of sports organizations. He also describes his flexible writing process, often working in stolen moments amidst his copywriting job and drawing inspiration from varied environments like coffee shops.

Notable Quote:

Michael Waters [30:14]: "I would be working... toggle over to the Word document. So it was more like kind of a bunch of stolen moments."

Timestamp: [30:02] - [43:35]

Future Projects and Recommendations

Michael discusses his upcoming book on the history of credit surveillance in America, drawing parallels between historical movements and contemporary financial systems. He also recommends several books that influenced his work, including Jules Gill Peterson's studies on queer history and How to Hide an Empire by Julian E. Zelizer, highlighting their contribution to understanding complex historical narratives.

Notable Quote:

Michael Waters [43:35]: "I'm writing another history book about sort of the history of credit surveillance in America."

Timestamp: [43:35] - [48:43]

Thought Leadership and Final Reflections

Towards the end of the episode, Traci poses thought-provoking questions about the political landscape and the role of literature in shaping policy and perception. Michael recommends "Sex is as Sex Does" by Paisley K. Kurlyand as essential reading for understanding the construction of sex and its implications on policy, particularly emphasizing its relevance to current political debates.

Notable Quote:

Michael Waters [49:55]: "The book that comes to mind for me is this academic book called Sex is As Sex does by Paisley Kara."

Timestamp: [49:55] - [51:33]

Closing Thoughts

In his final remarks, Michael reflects on his wish for Jenyette Kobach to read his book, anticipating a spirited and possibly critical dialogue. Traci concludes the episode by encouraging listeners to obtain Michael’s book and engage with its rich, multifaceted exploration of queer history in sports.

Notable Quote:

Michael Waters [51:18]: "I really would love for Kobach, the main athlete in this book, to read it because I think that I don't know that he would like this book."

Timestamp: [51:09] - [52:32]

Key Takeaways:

• Historical Intersectionality: The Other Olympians sheds light on the often-overlooked narratives of trans and intersex athletes in the early 20th century, particularly in the context of the 1936 Berlin Olympics and Nazi influence on sports policies.

• Media Sensationalism: The coverage of Jenyette Kobach's gender transition highlights the sensationalist approach of the media in the 1930s, contrasting with more contemporary portrayals.

• Gender Surveillance: The introduction of sex testing policies during the Berlin Olympics marked the beginning of gender surveillance in sports, rooted in patriarchal and fascist ideologies.

• Language and Identity: Accurately representing historical figures' identities remains challenging due to the evolution of language surrounding gender and sexuality.

• Future Perspectives: Michael Waters is expanding his exploration of systemic issues with his upcoming book on credit surveillance in America, indicating a continued focus on unveiling hidden histories and their impact on modern society.

This episode offers a deep dive into the complexities of queer history within the realm of sports, providing listeners with both historical insights and contemporary relevance.