Ep. 366 The Evolution of “Girl Power” with Geri Halliwell-Horner

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Stacks - Ep. 366 "The Evolution of 'Girl Power' with Geri Halliwell-Horner"

Release Date: April 9, 2025

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Introduction

In episode 366 of The Stacks, host Tracy Thomas welcomes Jerry Hallowell Horner, an esteemed author and former member of the Spice Girls, known as Ginger Spice. The discussion centers around Jerry's latest book, Rosie Frost: Ice on Fire, exploring themes of girl power, feminism, and the evolution of her writing journey.

Guest Background

Jerry Hallowell Horner transitions from a pop culture icon to a respected author in the middle-grade adventure genre. Her latest work, Rosie Frost: Ice on Fire, is the second installment in the Rosie Frost series, delving into the life of a young protagonist navigating a mysterious island school while uncovering dark family secrets.

"We all want to find our power. We all want to feel love, don't we? We all want to feel, you know, the best version of who we can be. And I think that's the most important message. That's a timeless message." — Jerry Hallowell Horner [01:04]

The Genesis of Rosie Frost: Ice on Fire

Jerry discusses her passion for writing, rooted in her background in English literature and her love for words. Influenced by The Artist's Way, she embarked on creating her first book series, Eugenia Lavender. Encouraged to develop a more mature protagonist, she conceptualized Rosie Frost as a relatable hero facing real-world challenges.

"It's about grief. The underpinning. There is a running theme throughout all the books and the characters. Relationships with our mums." — Jerry Hallowell Horner [20:13]

Overview of Rosie Frost: Ice on Fire

The book follows Rosie Frost, an orphan attending Hever Bridge School on Bloodstone Island—a place reminiscent of Jurassic Park but housing endangered animals. Rosie grapples with her mother's mysterious death, leading her to uncover deeper secrets and confront her own vulnerabilities.

"Rosie Frost goes to 400 and something. And I thought, oh, I'm demanding a lot of my readers." — Jerry Hallowell Horner [13:59]

Themes: Girl Power and Modern Feminism

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around the concept of girl power within the framework of modern feminism. Jerry emphasizes that feminism is about equality between the sexes and advocates for inner power that transcends gender identities.

"If that word girl power can evolve to inner power, we all want to find our power." — Jerry Hallowell Horner [21:14]

She highlights how Rosie Frost: Ice on Fire embodies these themes by presenting characters that reflect contemporary strengths and vulnerabilities, making the narrative both empowering and relatable.

Influences and Inspirations

Jerry cites various literary influences, including Rebecca by Daphne du Maurier and modern works like Harry Potter, though she distinctly sets her work apart with a character-driven approach. She underscores the importance of creating a balanced protagonist who is both tough and tender.

"A lot of everything you read is magical realism." — Jerry Hallowell Horner [09:43]

Character Development and Writing Process

Shifting from inspirations to her writing process, Jerry explains her transition from "pantsing" (writing without a plan) in her first book to a more structured plotting approach in the second. This disciplined method helped her maintain narrative coherence while fostering creativity.

"The first book I did pantsing. Second book I did plotting." — Jerry Hallowell Horner [29:26]

She shares her rituals for writing, such as setting dedicated times, minimizing distractions by keeping phones away, and allowing mental space to nurture ideas. These practices enable her to produce engaging and well-structured stories consistently.

Engagement with Young Readers

Jerry expresses immense joy in interacting with her young audience. Feedback from readers has been instrumental in shaping the development of Rosie Frost, ensuring the character remains relatable and resonates with the intended age group.

"We need to see ourselves in stories. We process stuff through stories." — Jerry Hallowell Horner [22:03]

Evolution of Identity and Personal Growth

The conversation touches on Jerry's personal growth from her Spice Girls persona to her identity as an author. She reflects on evolving while maintaining the essence of who she is, paralleling the growth of her characters who navigate through their own journeys of self-discovery.

"We evolve, we grow. It's natural. There's the essence of us that remains." — Jerry Hallowell Horner [43:09]

Conclusion and Final Thoughts

As the episode concludes, Tracy and Jerry emphasize the timelessness and adaptability of girl power. They discuss the importance of personal growth, resilience, and the continuous evolution of both individuals and societal norms. Jerry highlights the significance of allowing oneself creative space to foster authentic storytelling.

"It's the infinite wisdom from within. It's in us all, you know, that we have all the answers, the truth all inside of us." — Jerry Hallowell Horner [33:03]

Tracy thanks Jerry for her insightful contributions and celebrates her ongoing legacy as an author inspiring young readers. Listeners are encouraged to engage with The Stacks community via Patreon and Substack for deeper literary exploration and to support the podcast.

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Notable Quotes:

• On Feminism and Inner Power:

  "If that word girl power can evolve to inner power, we all want to find our power." — Jerry Hallowell Horner [21:14]

• On Character Relatability:

  "We need to see ourselves in stories. We process stuff through stories." — Jerry Hallowell Horner [22:03]

• On Creative Space:

  "It's the infinite wisdom from within. It's in us all, you know, that we have all the answers, the truth all inside of us." — Jerry Hallowell Horner [33:03]

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Final Remarks: Listeners are encouraged to participate in The Stacks community by joining the Stacks Pack on Patreon or subscribing to the "Unstacked" newsletter on Substack. Additionally, the book club pick for April is Blessing the Boats by Lucille Clifton, with an upcoming discussion featuring Tiana Clark on April 30th.

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This comprehensive summary captures the essence of the episode, highlighting key discussions, insights, and notable quotes while maintaining a structured and engaging narrative for those who haven't listened to the podcast.

Transcript

[Tracy Thomas]

Hey listeners. I'm here to tell you about an exciting event that's happening on Sunday, May 4. It is called Stack the Shelves. And it is a special pop up bookshop that the Stacks is hosting dedicated to supporting individuals and families impacted by the recent Los Angeles wildfires. We're going to have books, author signings, a kid's corner, food, music, lawn games, special guests, and more. And so now here's the part where I turn to you, the amazing Stacks community, and ask you for help. In order to make this day a sick, smashing success. We need volunteers local to Los Angeles. We need your donations, which will be tax deductible thanks to our partners at LA Room and Board, a fantastic nonprofit. 100% of your donations will go directly to families, including gift cards to Octavia's Bookshelf so they can continue to build their libraries. And we need your help spreading the word. Head to the snackspodcast.com shelves to get all the details. Again, that is the stacks podcast.com shelves.

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

We look up the word feminism. If you look it up, it actually says equality between the sexes. So whether whatever you identify with, you know, whether it's girl, boy or something else, it doesn't matter if that word girl power can evolve to inner power. We all want to find our power. We all want to feel love, don't we? We all want to feel, you know, the best version of who we can be. And I think that's the most important message. That's a timeless message.

[Tracy Thomas]

Welcome to the Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host, Tracy Thomas, and today I could not be more excited to welcome to the Stacks Jerry Hallowell Horner. Jerry is an author, performer and pop culture icon best known as Ginger Spice from the Spice Girls. Her latest book, Rosie Frost Ice on Fire, is the second installment in her middle grade adventure series about a determined girl navigating a mysterious island school while uncovering secrets about herself and her past. Today, Jerry and I talk about her evolution as a writer, girl power, and what it's meant for her to be an inspiration to young girls. Don't forget, our book club pick for April is Blessing the Boats New and Selected Poems, 1988 through 2000 by Lucille Clifton. Tiana Clark will be back on Wednesday, April 30th to discuss this book with me, so please be sure to read along and then tune in. Quick reminder, everything we talk about on each episode of the Stacks can be found in the link in the show notes. And if you love this podcast and you want inside access to it. There are two ways you can support the Stacks. One is by joining us over on Patreon, our bookish community known as the Stacks Pack, where you get bonus episodes, access to our Discord, our mega reading challenge, and to be part of an incredible community of readers. The other way you can support is by subscribing to my unstacked newsletter over on Substack. You get all my hot takes, plus bonus episodes and a lot of fun pop culture and book content. Go to Tracy Thomas substack.com and subscribe. Okay, now it is time for my conversation with Jerry Hallowell Horner. All right, everybody, I'm so excited. I'm joined today by Jerry Hallowell Horner. You all may remember her from a little music group she was part of back in the 90s, the Spice Girls. But I know her from her two children's middle grade novels that sent her Rosie Frost. The latest one just came out yesterday. It's called Rosie Frost, Ice on Fire. Jerry, welcome to the Stacks.

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

Hello. Oh, my God, it's so exciting to be here. And then to hear you say the title of my book, I'm like, oh, my God. So it's like thrilling. I'll tell you. It's like a dream come true. And I'm like something in your imagination. And then you suddenly get hear it. You're like, wow.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay, I have to know. Why did you want to write these books? This book? What. How did this come to you? How did this even become a dream?

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

Okay. So I started writing when. God, I've always loved the power of words and that, you know, pre the band, I studied English literature.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh.

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

And I always loved reading. It was always part of my love, my DNA. And then before I put my love of words in songs. And then there was a period I read this book called the Artist's Way.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay.

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

And it gets you to do lots of little practices of a series of, like, tasks. And then. And that's when I came up with my first book so series. And that was called Eugenia Lavender. And that did really well, but that was for much younger. And then I thought, well, shall I age her up? And then I was surprised by a very experienced agent. He said, no, start again. Start again. So then I thought, okay. I felt like the world needs a new hero, a different kind of hero. Someone that was vulnerable and not perfect and that we can all relate to. Finding the courage you never knew you had.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

And that's where it started from when I'm always character Led.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay.

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

I love finding yourself and, and your friendships on, you know, whether it's in movies or books. So. Yeah, no, that's where it started from. And I thought it was character first.

[Tracy Thomas]

I love that. Let's backtrack a hair and tell people who aren't familiar with the book. What will you tell us in like 30 seconds or so what Rosie Frost, Ice on Fire is about?

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

Okay, so Rosie Frost is a heartfelt action adventure. She is an orphan at this school, Hever Bridge on this island, Bloodstone, which is like imagine Jurassic park but for endangered animals. And the school was, was built by Queen Elizabeth the first 500 years ago. But now it's current day and Rosie Frost just lost her mum. She's orphaned and she's sent there and she doesn't know why. She goes through a series of challenges. And now cut to. She found out that her mother was murdered. Right. And there's been a murder on the island. And she's like, she's trying to find out who the murderer is. She's full of like revenge on her mind, unanswered questions. And there's a little bit of love in there.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. What I really like about Rosie and what I liked much about the book, as you were saying, she's tough and she's like, gonna do, she's gonna do it. But she's like, she's very tender. She's like a very sweet girl who sort of is forced into this situation as opposed to, I think so many young heroines are often they're just tough as nails across the board. And I like that Rosie has that balance of like, she doesn't actually want to be doing this, she just wants to be texting her mom pineapples. But instead she's out here like, solving murders and like dealing with weird animals and bullies. And I just, I really like that about her.

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

Oh, that's lovely. Because that's the point of her. She's modern. Most of us. The truth is, aren't we all sometimes a bit afraid? And we're going, how do I do this? I don't know the answers. And actually Rosie, she's just like, okay, I'm going to have to make the best of this. And actually the she, she finds a strength through the challenge, through the challenges basis as we do. And for me, it was important that, you know, the people around her that, you know, the male characters are just as important that, you know, they are a reflection of modern day boys. Now. You know, the boys once cry, but they're not Wet wipes, you know, they're still strong and in. Well rounded.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. You have daughters. Did they influence at all? Sort of. You're wanting to write these books and.

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

For this age group, I think so. I always just feel like it doesn't matter who we are or how old you are. We need to see ourselves in stories. We process stuff through stories and whether it's on book or film. And I just kept on going. I followed the rules. There's four rules in book one that Amberlynn gives to her daughter, Queen Elizabeth. The first, those four rules, I was. I actually went, God, I'm following those rules personally. You know, like, have courage. United we stand. Like, I need you. And the third one is never give up. You know, so there is a warning, I think that comes with book two. Pick it up. And I think it's quite hard to put down more than, like, it's quite page turner. Like, I want to know. I did it on purpose. I want to know. Next and next. And next and next.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, it definitely has a page turner vibe. Like from the beginning. I mean, something happens in a bathroom very early on and you're just like, well, now I need to know who this is, where we're going and why.

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

I did it on purpose.

[Tracy Thomas]

Were you a fantasy reader as a kid? Are you a fantasy reader as an adult? Where did this sort of genre come from for you?

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

I think this, I would put this genre is magical realism.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay.

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

A lot of everything you read is. And not intentionally, but it's. Some of it is real.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

There is a moment you're going to find out. I don't know if you've got to it yet, that Harry Arundel, he's one of the professors there. He is bringing animals from the past back to life.

[Tracy Thomas]

Right.

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

Okay. And he reveals this real life dodo. I thought, oh, that'll be interesting. So I made that. It actually really is happening.

[Tracy Thomas]

Someone's bringing back the dodo bird.

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

Yes. Oh, and I didn't know that. So it was sort of unintentional. So there is. It leans into science on this one. You know, there's black. There's black hole fusion energy, but it's sort of in the backdrop of it. And then, yeah, it gets bigger. And so why do I go to this? I have a fascination. I'm quite a curious person.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay.

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

I would say, like, I like history a bit. I like a bit of science, like a bit of that, but I'm a bit nerdy, but I'm a lazy nerd. Like when I was Researching and interviewing people. Sometimes I'm like, can you say that again? You say that again for sure. You know, when I was speaking to scientists, I was like, oh my goodness. But you know, it was just in the background of the story. So it just gives it the glass. So what you see, what you read, there is elements of truth to it, but really it actually is a fast paced and it's murderous.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, yeah. I mean it has. Yes, it has those like elements. I'm so fascinated that you were like in English. English was your sort of background in school. Has becoming an author changed your relationship to reading in any way?

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

Oh, yeah, absolutely. It's funny you say that. It's a bit like as a musician you can unpick music and go, I can hear how they did that. Blah, blah. I definitely it really. You can start analyzing. Oh, how they've done this. However, a great story just sucks you in. Anyway. Okay. For example, I got recommended just by accident to read the story Rebecca.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay, right.

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

By Daphne du Maurier. And that is how many? 90 years old, probably. I was hooked in. And so it's ageless, it's timeless. So you can enjoy anything. I'll enjoy any genre.

[Tracy Thomas]

What are other books you've loved? What are some of your faves?

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

I would say 20 years ago I loved the book Thief.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay. Yes.

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

I thought it was original and fantastic and that was very transporting. It's got a historical value to it. I'll tell you what was a lean into entry point was the other Berlin Girl.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, yeah.

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

But then I recently. Okay. I've talked about Tomorrow, Tomorrow, Tomorrow. That made me cry and it didn't. I didn't think I was gonna love that. You know, it's about computer nerds and then recent at the moment. My reading at the moment. Okay. I'm reading. Okay. Robert Harris Precipice.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay. Oh, yes. I just read that last year.

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

But then also, and I'm trying to make myself read it because someone else does it and. Oh God. I'll show you this. Actually, this computer is rested on it.

[Tracy Thomas]

On your books. What is that?

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

War and Peace.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, you're doing it. How's it going?

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

Oh, my God. Okay. That's me. I've got two books on the go. Sometimes I have more. I'm. I'm committed. I'm doing it. I don't care if it takes me all year. I am going to read this book.

[Tracy Thomas]

You can do it.

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

Yeah. So apparently you get into it sometimes.

[Tracy Thomas]

That's what they say.

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

I've never read It.

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

Yeah, the same. I. You know, this is the first time I think someone said it was a writer. Screenwriter said to me, I asked him, what's your favorite book? And he said, war and Peace. And it was. I thought, I'm gonna give that a go.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay. That's amazing.

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

And it's got really small print.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

Can I just tell you how many pages it's got?

[Tracy Thomas]

You can.

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

One. Oh, my God. It has got 1,374 pages. 1,000. Like, Rosie Frost goes to 400 and something. And I thought, oh, I'm demanding a lot of my readers. Maybe I should know. You know, it's.

[Tracy Thomas]

If only you had the ego of an old Russian, you know, you would say, rosie needs another thousand pages, easy.

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

I think it's such a big ask to ask a reader to commit to. Really meant to invest their time. It's the huge.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, it is. I mean, so these Russian. The old Russian novels, like Anna Karenina as well, they were serialized, so when they came out, they came out in parts. So you would get, like, a book at a time. So they were more like a series than here's 13,000 or 1300 pages. So at the time, it felt more like soap opera. Y. Now it just feels like homework.

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

Isn't that interesting? Oh, I didn't know that. Okay, so do you get. What was War and Peace?

[Tracy Thomas]

I think so, because that's also. That's. Who's that, Tolstoy?

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. I think it was also serialized. I don't know for sure. Okay. I want to shift gears a little bit, because I first have to confess something, and then I want to talk about something else.

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

Like, I'm a priest.

[Tracy Thomas]

No, I'm gonna confess. I'm gonna confess. Well, yes, I guess in a pop culture. Priest. The Spice Girls was my first ever concert.

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

Was it?

[Tracy Thomas]

I was a huge fan. I still am. Played it last night for my twins. They were loving. Stop right now. Thank you very much. They're five obsessed. Wouldn't stop singing it. My one kid loves now to go. Stop right now. Thank you very much. I'm like, okay, you're welcome very much, you little rude baby. But I was always. I was always a ginger. I look like a scary. I often got cast as a scary, but I had another black friend, and she got to be scary, and I got to be ginger. And I've always thought of myself as a ginger. So I am just. I have to just say I'm. I'm really like, personally, the inner child in me. Just so thrilled to have you. Here. I love.

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

That's lovely. Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

I mean, and I do want to ask you, actually, about fans and fandom, because I'm so interested in you. You know, the Spice Girls came out in the 90s. People my age, millennials, you all were so important to us when we were, you know, preteens and teens. And you're sort of writing to that same age group now. So I'm wondering for you if there's something that speaks to you about that kind of age for young girls that. That, like, you really feel like you have something to say or that you're able to connect with them in. In a way that feels meaningful to you.

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

Okay. It's funny. Ice on Fire, it talks. The. The premises. The Genesis of says 14 is the age of power. Okay. Now, different periods in our life, we can suddenly. It's almost like shedding a skin or, you know, we step into a new phase. And it really is that I think it's a different era. You suddenly go, this is my identity. I'm owning it. I think that happens at 14. It happens again at 30, you know, and older. It's just another era and reclaiming that. And it says, there have been queens at the age of 14. And I think, you know, we're impressionable. We're sort of looking for answers, that we're evolving all ages. We are. You know, if I can see it, we can be it. So I love speaking to actually any generation, but if I can speak to a younger one, great. But I think I really feel that this book is, you know, if you're 27, you connect. My ambition is, yes, it will speak to you if you're 14 or 10, but also if you're 27, 37 and 57 doesn't matter. It's a timeless subject of going, your heart is on fire. And sometimes we are ice on fire. You know, it's both. We are both. Sometimes we, like, full of revenge and angry, and then sometimes we're full of passion. It's. We're all of that.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. Have you heard from your younger readers from the first book, how did their experience with the book sort of impact you as you were working on the second one?

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

Oh, my goodness, it's so thrilling. And, you know, when readers come up to me and say, I really liked, you know, Ottilie or I can't stand that hemlock, wait till you see what happens in number two in Rise. Ice on Fire. Oh, my God, the behavior. And actually, even Rosie, she. Her behavior is questionable. That there is a darkness in all of us. And it's. Whether we, we notice it and recognize it. Could have done that a bit better. She sort of does she. There is a moment where you go, really? Little bit Britney esque.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay. We love it.

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

The snake gets the snake and she does something that's quite. It's the. I call it the ricochet of revenge. And it can happen in anyone's walk of life. You know, I can say, Tracy, you really annoyed me. And so. Yeah, and now I'm gonna do this back. And then, and then, and then Tracy, you go, jerry, you really annoyed me. Right? I'm. Now I'm gonna. And it just goes a ricochet back and forth and it's. And that resentment builds. Or I can say, do you know what? I'm just going to let it go. Let it go. Doesn't mean I'm a doormat, but maybe I'm going to let this go. It asks those questions of ourself, you know, when things don't go well, how am I going to respond? You know? And Rosie is full of like, she's full of absolute anger and resentment. Her mother has been killed.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. And grief, I mean this is sort of. I mean these are grief books.

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

Yeah, it's about grief. The underpinning. There is a running theme throughout all the books and the characters. Relationships with our mums. You know, it's our first interaction, whether it's a good one or a bad one. You know, whether it colors are, you know, our being. I didn't realize. Laughter's. I was like, gosh, you really lean into that. Someone else pointed it out and you really. All the, all the, you know, characters, if the new ones all have some are shaped by their mothers.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. I mean, aren't we all our fathers?

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

Yeah, aren't we all? Aren't we all?

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. The theme of, you know, girl power sort of runs through this book. Right. And I'm wondering why you think that's still. If, if you think that still is a resonant theme and why. And also how your relationship has changed to the idea of girl power as feminism has changed so much over the last 30 years.

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

If we look up the word feminism, if you look it up, it actually says equality between the sexes. So whether whatever you identify with, you know, whether it's girl, boy or something else, it doesn't matter me that everybody matters. And actually if that word girl power can evolve to inner power, we all want to find our power. Whether it's through that courage, whether it's through love. We all want to feel loved, don't we? We all want to feel, you know, the best version of who we can be. We will live in our truths and I think that's the most important message. That, and that's a running. That's a timeless message.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. Okay, let's take a quick break and we'll be right back. Starting a business is exciting, but getting your online store up and running can feel like a whole other job. That's where Shopify comes in. Whether you're launching a brand new product or turning your side hustle into something bigger, Shopify gives you the tools to make it happen. You can build a professional looking store in minutes with their easy templates, no coding needed, and start selling across your website, website, socials, and even in person. Shopify also helps you stay organized as you grow from tracking inventory to processing payments and calculating taxes. It's all handled in one place, so instead of juggling a dozen tools, you can run your entire business from a single dashboard. Shopify helps you run your business so you can focus on growing it, upgrade your business and get the same checkout we use with Shopify. Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.com the stacks all lowercase go to shopify.com the stacks to upgrade your selling today. Shopify.com the stacks hey friends, it's me, Tracy. And if you love what you hear on today's episode of the Stacks or any episode of the Stacks and you want to dive deeper into the world of books with me, I've got two great ways for you to do that. The Stacks Pack on Patreon and my newsletter unstacked over on Substack. Patreon is where the Stacks community really shines. We've got a Discord monthly book club meetups and our year long mega reading challenge to help you push your reading goals. If you want to be part of this incredible community, and I cannot overstate that, head to patreon.com thestacks now. Over on my sub stack I'm sharing my thoughts twice a week from what I'm reading to what's happening in the book world in pop culture and sports. And on Substack, you're going to find my mini reviews, rankings, reading goals and plenty of opinions. Whether you want to subscribe for free or unlock even more with a paid subscription, you can do that by going to Tracy thomas.substack.com and if you join Patreon or Substack, you are going to get a monthly bonus episode. If you want to Support this black woman run independent podcast and treat yourself to some extra bonus bookish bonus content. Go to patreon.com thestacks or tracythomas.substack.com to join. I would love to have you. Hey all. I wanted to tell you about Village well. It is a woman owned, community focused bookstore and cafe located in the heart of downtown Culver City. If you live close to Culver City, feel free. If you live close to Culver city, you should 1000% stop by. But if you're not in the Los Angeles area, you can buy books directly from their website, shop.village well.com. you can also support their podcast Village well Podcast, which interviews authors and fellow readers about the books that capture their imagination. There's a fantastic episode with friend of this pod, Jason De Leon that you should definitely check out. Village well podcast releases new episodes every Wednesday. Wherever you listen to your podcasts, you won't want. Okay, great. We're back. How do you name your characters? How did you come up with all these people?

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

Oh, that's so interesting. Okay, so there is a. There. Okay, so there's a new dude in this called Ludo and I found. I just meet people. I met a guy called Ludo.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, you did?

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

Oh yeah. This guy that I, I know. I don't know him well. He was going out with a Ottilie and I kept it, I banked it. We think there were actually people that I go. Oh, that's good. Always collecting little magpie. Rosie, she. She just. That came.

[Tracy Thomas]

You knew it was Rosie instantly?

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

Yeah, yeah. I'm. See, I played around actually with her surname. But then I really love the idea that Rosie Frost this sort of, this sort of parallel of both the mirror. Wow. And she's both.

[Tracy Thomas]

What was the hardest part of writing the book?

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

Okay. This is something I've had to learn is discipline of threading. The second go. I wrote out more of the. The. The timeline, the theme of it, structure before I began. And that's. That's a discipline. Another author told me to do that first time round. You know, some authors, there's no right or wrong way. Some authors just go on their trail adventure. But the book two, I did it more structured and actually it helped me because you can still be creative, but it just gives you some boundaries. I think what was the hard. I think editing is really hard.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

Get all these notes and it's like, oh my God. It's different levels of it.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. Have you ever heard the phrase plotting or pantsing that authors say first Book.

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

I did a pants. Pantsing. The first book I did pantsing. Second book I did plotting. Yes.

[Tracy Thomas]

And for people who are like, what does that mean? Pantsing is flying by the seat of your pants when you write. Whereas plotting is like, you have an outline or you lay things out, you plot it out, you have a plan. Um, did you ever want to stop writing or throw the book away and just be like, it's a one, it's one book. I don't want to do the second one.

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

Always knew that it was three. Yeah, I always knew it was three.

[Tracy Thomas]

Have you started writing book three yet?

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

I've. Literally, yes, I have. I mean, I'm doing. I'm doing the whole outline and I've started to really, like, home down to, you know, it knows what it is now. And I've had my aha moment. I'll tell you what I do do like about it. When you have to get. Go on the research trips.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

Like, I interviewed Brian Cox, who's a physicist.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay.

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

Like, and then they're. They're sharing their experience with you. It's amazing. Yeah. You know, for the book lovers, I mentioned Philippa Gregory. Like, so I met her when I first started maybe 17 years ago. And then she gave me like a quote. It's on. It's on the English version. It's not an American one yet, but she gave. She gave me a strap line. She read it of ice and fire. And then she was in my kitchen and giving me tips, you know, and point on Henry vii. And I was like, oh, my God. Oh, my God. The door opener for me into historical fiction is now in my kitchen.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. I mean, that's like the coolest thing about how life works. Right?

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

Isn't it brilliant.

[Tracy Thomas]

That's how I feel right now talking to you.

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

You know what? We all inspire each other at different times, don't we? Yeah, we're all, like, pulling each other over the wall, I think, you know, we inspire each other at different times. You know, everybody has something shining within them that, you know, wants to come through and sometimes we just need that encouragement.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. And the space.

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

Yeah, that. Yeah, the space. The real, like, key opener for creativity. Do you know what it is? Allow oneself to be bored, just. Or a little bit, like, not preoccupied or consistently stimulated from the outside, but allow the inside to come through. But that means allowing space.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. Do you know who Twyla Tharp is? The choreographer?

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

No.

[Tracy Thomas]

So she's amazing. And. And she has a book called the Creative Habit that came out when I was in college, and it's still one of the most important books for me. I reread it so often. But one of the things she always talks about is how she always starts in an empty, white, clean, white room because she needs that. That, like, nothing, no input, which is sort of what you're talking about. And I always say, you know, I have my best ideas in the shower because I have no phone, I have no music, I have no. Nothing to write with. I just have my brain, and I'm just, like, in there. And that is where, you know, if I'm. If I'm working on an interview and I'm stuck on a question or how do I want to ask this? Or what do I want to talk about with this person? I'll be in the shower and then all of a sudden, like, oh, that's it. That's it. So I do. I agree. I think there's something to that. No. No input. Kind of boredom. Yeah.

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

I suppose is. It's. I'm learning. It's that infinite wisdom from within. It's in us all, you know, that we have all the answers, the truth all inside of us, allowing it and to access it, to give ourselves the space to hear it, rather than stuffing it with, you know, constant activity.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

Distraction. And when the truth is in us all and allowing that sort of beauty and truth, it's maybe to come through.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. And like, being open to. To hearing it or sensing what's coming out. Yeah.

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

And then being brave enough to act on it.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. Well, that part's really hard. That's. That's the hardest part of being creative, I think, is like, being willing to put the work out into the world. Right. Like, to, like, be able to actually say, I made this. What do you think?

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

Yes. And somewhere I read this saying, and there's two things that said. Failure is feedback and fail. Well, and it was in. Do you know, it was in something really small where I read this. It was Dogman. Do you know Dog Man?

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, yeah, the. Like, Police Dog.

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

Cartoon book.

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

Yeah, cartoon book. And I was just reading it with my son, and they were talking about, you know, they're going to be creative, and everyone was a bit frightened to be creative. And then he went, okay, I want you to do. I want you to create a story, a cartoon, but I want you to think, I'm going to fail as I do it. Yes. They wrote really outlandish. Like, you think, oh, my goodness. But actually without freedom to just.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

Like, go for it no matter what.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. This is a real hard shift. But I always ask everybody about this and we're coming to the end of our time. So how do you write? How often? How many hours a day? Is there music or no, are you home? Are you in the world? Are there snacks and beverages? That part's important.

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

Rituals, different things as I've gone along and for me there isn't a right way to do it and there's different things. Okay. And other writers have told. Shared their experience. The first thing was to leave the phone outside the room.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay.

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

The phone is a creative killer because turn off notifications from your laptop because otherwise it pulls you out.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

And then you're distracted. That's one definitely set date like time and because otherwise we can go oh, I need to go and do this, I need to go. That no isn't when you feel like it. You're going to be at the desk at 9:00 till 12:00. That's it. That is your time. It doesn't matter whatever. Even if you write one sentence that's your time. And then. But sometimes I've got out of bed in the middle of the night and just felt I just wanted to write something. Yeah. I write notes all the time, you know to myself. I think oh that's a really good.

[Tracy Thomas]

On paper or in your phone.

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

Thoughts on my phone now. But I've. I've written things on the back of a. You know what this is? Yeah. I'm going to share it on an aeroplane. I've written ideas on the back of a sick bag. You know like.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, yeah. What about writing snacks and beverages? Any.

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

Yeah. But I normally use that as break sometimes every 20 minutes if my head is like going to get a, you know, have a drink or go and have a cup of tea. The other thing I would say as well is keep sending what I've written. Sending it on email to myself. Oh yeah, because you want to save it because imagine if your computer crashes.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

I see horrible feeling.

[Tracy Thomas]

Be prepared for anything. The other question I always ask is what's a word you can never spell correctly on the first try?

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

Do you know what sometimes I like I think I don't know if it's because the phone writes for you. I get. You can get a mental block on speed spelling. Like I went to write the word lenses today.

[Tracy Thomas]

Like for your glasses.

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

Yes, lenses or lens. And I was like I. I second guessed myself.

[Tracy Thomas]

This is a word I also can't spell because I think it should be L, E, N S, E. Yes.

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

And what is that?

[Tracy Thomas]

That's what I think. I think it's L, E, N, S. Right. Like a len. I don't know. I can. I. I have a really hard time with this.

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

I spelt it wrong.

[Tracy Thomas]

I'm looking it up right now. Lens. Lens is a lens for a glass. For glasses. Is lense a word? No, lense is not a word. But I have. You're not alone. This is a. This is one I never remember whenever anybody asks me words I can't spell. But it is one that I have struggled with for a long time.

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

So actually, could I text someone would. Lens, as in straight down the lens and I've spelled it wrong.

[Tracy Thomas]

See?

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

Wow.

[Tracy Thomas]

Amazing. We love. We love bad spelling here. I'm a terrible speller. Yeah, I need spell check too. In life, like any. I. I always think about school teachers who write on the board. I'm like, if you're a bad speller, you're just opening yourself up to the kids, just making so much fun of you.

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

But I think because we've got spell check now, you know, we can beget a little bit.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, we rely on it.

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

Rely on it. So we've become a little bit on that.

[Tracy Thomas]

Well, I can say confidently that while I'm definitely a bad speller now, I was also a bad speller as a child. I've never. I. For some reason, it just does not stick in my brain. I just refuse to remember.

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

Yeah, sometimes it doesn't sound as. It.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, it doesn't look right. It doesn't sound right. Very phonetic. So anything. If there's like a lot of consonants, I get it wrong because I just. I'm like, how many M's, how many C's? I don't know. Anyways, successful. That's hard. Too many, too. I think that's a lot of doubles. I don't know. But not at the end. I think there's only one L at the end.

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

Two colors, two socks.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, doing it. Two collars, two socks. But what has. What has two collars? Like two socks? Makes sense because you have two feet, you need two socks. But I only have one neck, so shouldn't it be one collar, two socks?

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

That's how I remembered it. Two callers.

[Tracy Thomas]

I clearly am misunderstanding the. The memory device, but. Or making. Maybe making it too literal. Well, since we're almost out of time, I just have about two more questions for you. One is for people who love these books, what are some other books that you might recommend to them that are in conversation with The Rosie Frost series. Series.

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

It's not trying to be the same because I think so. Harry Potter obviously is about. Is a story about a kid that is sent to a school.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

That is a similarity. But here we've got a female protagonist and it's about the power within.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

So that is a similarity. Back up. Can't think of anything that's similar. Can you think of anything? I would say it's an. It's un. Airbrushed.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes.

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

Is an unaired brush adventure, which for me is very modern. Like, you'll feel that. You'll feel Rosie's pain.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. I mean, I sort of. I mean, maybe because I've been reading these books recently too, but she sort of has some Katniss Everdeen in her. Some Hunger Games in her.

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

Okay, there is a little bit of that, but the difference is I would say she's more vulnerable.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

She hasn't quite. She's having to find the courage.

[Tracy Thomas]

She's like, I'm not sure, but they're in conversation. They're sort of in the same. The same. Kind of like figuring it out. Having to be tough when they don't necessarily want to be. I mean, the stories are very different. The worlds are different, but there's something in there.

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

There is a little bit of that catness. A little bit, but there's a little bit of love in there. But then it's wrapped in conservation and. But the love and the human relationships isn't there. I don't know what else there is.

[Tracy Thomas]

That's good.

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

That's good.

[Tracy Thomas]

You answered it.

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

Last question. Gladiator.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes. I love that. That's great. That's great. That's actually really funny. I'm, like, picturing, like, Regina George and George Clooney, like, going head to head. Is it George Clooney? No. Who is it? It's Russell Crowe. I was like, the other guy who looks like George Clooney. Don't cut that, Christian. People know I'm so bad at so many celebrities.

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

I can never quite again. Likable because we're all that I can never remember.

[Tracy Thomas]

I only. I can only remember Jerry Hall Horner. The only celebrity that ever mattered to me.

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

Thank you so much. And thank you for being ginger. Yeah, that ginger. And Rosie is ginger on the hair color. But actually ginger actually means, like, when she gingerly did something, she's like, oh, I'm gonna like, careful. Go for it. It's a spirit within.

[Tracy Thomas]

Do you still feel like ginger or do you feel like a totally different person?

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

I. It's within us all. We're all just different layers, aren't we?

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. I just think about, like, being known for something, like, from so many years before. Like, if you feel like you, like, I'm. Obviously you've grown and you've changed, but, like, to so many people, you're this, like, 20 something. And I wonder if you still see yourself in that girl.

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

I think we just evolve, you know, your podcast is seven years old.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

And we evolve, we grow. It's natural. There's the essence of us that, you know, remain, you know, that's part of life, isn't it?

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, it is. Okay, last question. If you could have one person dead or alive, read this book, who would you want it to be?

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

Amberlynn.

[Tracy Thomas]

Ooh, good one.

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

Yeah, the. For sure. Because it's almost her redemption or Queen Elizabeth. But this was my, like, you know, this was her rebrand. Yeah, this was her rebrand. That she deserves to be heard.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. She. She gets a bad right in history.

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

Yeah. I think. Oh, you know what? She was here now, I'd say, you know what, girl, we hear you, we see you, and we love you. Okay. And we're rebranding you and your daughter, Queen Elizabeth I. You were fantastic, too. Slay you.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. I love it. I love it. That's a perfect place to end. Jerry, thank you so much for being here. This was just amazing. Thank you.

[Jerry Hallowell Horner]

Okay, well, thank you so much and congratulations on seven years of this podcast and you've done amazing and a big hello and thank you to everyone listening. Have a beautiful day. And, yeah, you've got this.

[Tracy Thomas]

And everyone else, we will see you in the stacks. All right, y'all, that does it for us. Thank you so much for listening. And thank you again to Jerry Hallowell Horner for joining the show. Thank you also to Emma Eels and Emma Pels for helping to make this conversation possible. Remember, our book club pick for April is Blessing the Boats by Lucille Clifton, which we will discuss on Wednesday, April 30th with Tiana Clark. If you love this podcast and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com the stacks and join the Stacks Pack. And you can check out my newsletter@tracy thomas.substack.com make sure you're subscribed to the Stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts. And if you're listening through Apple podcasts or Spotify, please leave us a rating and a review. For more from the Stacks, follow us on social media, Hestax Pod, on instagram threads and TikTok and check out our website thestaxpodcast.com this episode of the Stacks was edited by Christian Duenas with production assistance from Megan Caballero and waikea Frillo. Our graphic designer is Robin McCrite and our theme music is from Tagirijis. The Stax is created and produced by me, Tracy Thomas.

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