Ep. 373 Devil in a Blue Dress by Walter Mosley — The Stacks Book Club (Kara Brown)

Summary

The Stacks Podcast - Episode 373: Devil in a Blue Dress by Walter Mosley

Release Date: May 28, 2025
Host: Traci Thomas
Guest: Cara Brown (Screenwriter and Cultural Critic)

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1. Introduction to the Episode

In this episode of The Stacks, host Traci Thomas welcomes screenwriter and cultural critic Cara Brown to delve into Walter Mosley's 1990 debut novel, Devil in a Blue Dress. As part of The Stacks Book Club, Traci and Cara engage in a comprehensive discussion, unpacking the novel's intricate plot, character motivations, and the broader racial and cultural themes embedded within the story.

2. Plot Overview

Traci Thomas provides a succinct summary of the novel's premise:

"[...] Ezekiel, aka Easy Rollins, is a World War II veteran who has migrated from Houston to Los Angeles. Struggling with unemployment, Easy is approached by a white man seeking help to find a white woman named Daphne Monet, who frequents predominantly Black establishments. Motivated by the need to secure his mortgage, Easy embarks on this quest, leading him through a labyrinth of murders and deceit."
[04:00]

3. Character Dynamics and Motivations

Easy Rollins, the protagonist, is portrayed as a morally upright individual grappling with post-war challenges and the racial tensions of 1940s Los Angeles. His primary motivation to find Daphne—not out of pure curiosity but out of economic necessity—sets the stage for a series of violent encounters.

Cara Brown reflects on Easy's character arc:

"Easy is very careful about who he's interacting with, what he's revealing. His motivations are clear and compelling, especially when it comes to protecting his property and dignity."
[31:03]

Mouse, Easy's friend, serves as a foil—a morally bankrupt character whose propensity for violence contrasts sharply with Easy's integrity.

4. Racial Politics and Themes

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the racial dynamics within the novel. The portrayal of Daphne Monet as a mixed-race woman "passing" as white is a pivotal plot twist that underscores the racial tensions of the era.

Traci Thomas highlights this:

"On the back of my copy, there's a quote from the New York Times saying Mosley has something vital to say about the distance between the Black and white worlds. Personally, I didn't find it profound, perhaps because I'm reading it 35 years later."
[11:54]

Cara Brown counters by analyzing the historical context:

"Passing stories were significant in the '90s, reflecting the complexities of identity and acceptance. However, from a modern perspective, some aspects feel outdated or unrelatable."
[13:38]

They further discuss the distinction between "white passing" and "white presenting," clarifying common misconceptions:

"White passing is a choice to present oneself as white, often hiding one's true racial identity for personal or safety reasons. White presenting, on the other hand, is simply a physical trait without altering one's identity."
[15:09]

5. Depiction of Violence and PTSD

The novel delves into themes of violence and the psychological scars of war. Easy's experiences and his internal struggles with PTSD are evident throughout his actions and decisions.

Traci Thomas remarks:

"The depiction of PTSD was intriguing. Easy has violent fantasies triggered by harassment, reminiscent of his wartime experiences. This portrayal adds depth to his character, highlighting the ongoing impact of his service."
[49:08]

6. Critique of Plot and Character Development

Both hosts express mixed feelings about the novel's pacing and coherence, particularly regarding the multitude of murders and unclear motives.

Traci Thomas shares her confusion:

"There are so many murders introduced, and their motives aren't always clear. For instance, the character Howard dies early on, only to later reveal that Joppy was responsible, leaving me questioning the underlying reasons."
[07:20]

Cara Brown adds:

"The book felt more like a general mystery rather than a focused detective story. The lack of developed relationships among the community made it hard to grasp the interconnected motives behind the crimes."
[08:42]

7. The House as a Central Motive

Ownership of a house in Los Angeles serves as a crucial motivator for Easy's actions, symbolizing his pursuit of stability and upward mobility amidst racial adversity.

Traci Thomas explains:

"Easy's determination to protect his house is a powerful motivator. In the context of the Great Migration, owning property was a significant achievement for Black individuals, making his actions to secure it both understandable and compelling."
[28:00]

Cara Brown concurs, emphasizing the historical significance:

"Considering the Great Migration, Easy's ownership of property represents a tangible symbol of success and security, justifying his extreme measures to protect it."
[30:56]

8. Comparison to the Movie Adaptation

The hosts compare the novel to its film adaptation, noting significant differences that impact character motivations and plot clarity.

Traci Thomas observes:

"In the movie, the plot is streamlined with clearer motivations. For example, Daphne's true racial identity is revealed earlier, and the interconnectedness of characters like Frank is handled differently, making the story more coherent."
[39:25]

Cara Brown adds:

"The movie removes some of the convoluted murder motives and focuses more on the noir elements and racial politics, which makes the narrative easier to follow."
[43:23]

9. Sexual Content and Character Relationships

The novel features an extensive and unconventional sex scene between Easy and Daphne, which both hosts found disproportionate and lacking narrative significance.

Traci Thomas critiques:

"There's a prolonged sex scene that seems out of place and not entirely relevant to the story's progression. It felt disconnected from the established character dynamics."
[52:07]

Cara Brown agrees:

"The sudden intimacy between Easy and Daphne without adequate buildup feels forced and detracts from their character development."
[56:33]

10. Final Thoughts and Conclusions

Despite its flaws, both Traci and Cara recognize the novel's strengths in portraying a specific historical and cultural setting with authenticity.

Traci Thomas concludes:

"Overall, I enjoyed Devil in a Blue Dress. While it was a mess in some aspects, the depiction of 1940s Los Angeles and the racial undertones were compelling. The house as a symbol and Easy's motivations were particularly strong points."
[60:51]

Cara Brown adds:

"The novel effectively captures the essence of its time and place, providing a satisfying read despite its narrative inconsistencies. It's a significant contribution to the mystery genre, especially from a Black author's perspective."
[61:56]

11. June Book Club Pick Announcement

Wrapping up the episode, Traci announces the June book club selection:

"Our June book club pick is The Art Thief: A True Story of Love, Crime and a Dangerous Obsession by Michael Finkel. Join us on Wednesday, June 25, for an engaging discussion on this riveting true crime narrative."
[62:07]

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

1. Traci Thomas on Easy's Motivation:

   "Owning property was basically not possible for black people in the American south at the time. So I think that this, like, owning the house as the reason he does stuff is maybe one of the most compelling reasons for someone to do dumb fuckery."
   [26:28]

2. Definition Clarification by Traci:

   "White passing or white presenting is a person who is not white or not completely white, who looks as if they could be white..."
   [14:00]

3. Traci on PTSD Depiction:

   "The depiction of PTSD was really interesting in the book. Like, Easy is so violent and obsessed with violence..."
   [49:08]

4. Cara Brown on Character Interactions:

   "He is very careful about who he's talking to, how he's talking to them, what he's revealing..."
   [55:05]

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Supporting The Stacks

To support the podcast and gain access to exclusive content, listeners are encouraged to join the Stacks Pack community on Patreon or subscribe to Traci's newsletter on Substack.

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Edited by: Christian Duenas
Production Assistance: Waqia Freelo
Graphics Design: Robin McRite
Theme Music: Takirajis
Created and Produced by: Traci Thomas

Transcript

[Tracy Thomas]

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[Cara Brown]

Excludes restaurants it's like a nice dry white wine that goes down easy. You're like you said a $12 bottle that goes down really easy. And I'm like, hell yeah, I'll drink that. And I feel like these books, a lot of these mysteries for me are in that category of like, there are a lot of things you can harp at. But I'm like, ultimately it did feel like that $12 bottle of white wine where I'm like, yeah, absolutely.

[Tracy Thomas]

It's exactly yeah. And I think that's hard. Welcome to the Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host, Tracy Thomas, and it's the last Wednesday of the month, AKA the Stacks Book Club Day. Today we are discussing the 1990 classic mystery novel Devil in a Blue Dress by Walter Mosley. I'm joined for this conversation by screenwriter and cultural critic Cara Brown. In our chat today, we dig into the racial politics of the novel, try to unpack the crimes and their motives, and discuss the violence and PTSD depicted throughout the book. There are a lot of spoilers on today's episode. Be sure to listen to the end of the episode to find out what our June Book club pick will be. Quick reminder, everything we talk about on each episode of the Stacks can be found in the link in the show notes. If you love this podcast and you want inside access to it, there are two fantastic ways to support the show. One is by joining the Stacks Pack community over on Patreon. By going to patreon.com the stacks over there, you're going to get bonus episodes, access to our Discord community, and a lot more. The other way you can support is by subscribing to my newsletter. That's where I'm going to give you a lot of hot takes about books and pop culture. You'll get bonus episodes over there too, don't you worry. And you can do that by going to Tracy thomas.substack.com Either way, you're earning Perks for yourself and helping me make this podcast free every single week. Okay, now it's time for my conversation with Kara Brown about Walter Mosley's debut novel, Devil in a Blue Dress. All right, everybody, it is the Stacks Book Club Day. We are joined again by the wonderful Kara Brown. Kara, welcome back to the Stacks.

[Cara Brown]

Hello. I. I feel like I'm extra excited for. For this.

[Tracy Thomas]

I'm really excited, too, because neither of us know what the other one thinks, and we're both just smirking at each other, so I can't wait. But before we do that, let me tell y' all what we're gonna talk about today. We're talking about Devil in a blue dress, the 1990 debut of iconic mystery writer Walter Mosley. It's the first book in the Easy Rollins series, which has, like, a billion books in it. There's a new one coming out this year. He's not done. Easy is. Had a hard life. And for folks who are listening who have not read the book, we are going to spoil this book. So if you haven't read it, you should pause. We're going to talk about every twist and turn. We're not going to leave you with anything to. To revel in. You read it now. So if you haven't read it, read it now. Or don't care about spoilers, that's up to you. And let me give a quick little plot summary. I'm gonna. Or quick plot setup. I'm gonna try.

[Cara Brown]

Do you try?

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay. So Ezekiel, aka Easy Rollins, is a World War II veteran who is from Houston by way of Louisiana, who has moved to Los Angeles. Great migration, anybody Here he is out of work when we find him. He's just been laid off from his job. And he's at a bar, his friend Joppy, Joppy's bar. And a white man walks in. We get the. We get white man in the first sentence, iconic, who is looking for a white lady named Daphne Monet. He says to Easy, I will pay you a whole bunch of money if you can find this white lady. I can't find her myself because she likes to frequent Negro establishments. Easy decides to do it because he's got a mortgage payment. And then from there, we try to find Daphne. A lot of people die between so many. Meeting DeWitt, the white man, and the end of the book. There's many murders, all murders. No one just, like, has cancer. No. It's murder after murder after murder. So that's the setup of the book. We always start here. So just kind of generally Kara, what did you think of the book?

[Cara Brown]

I feel like I don't. I didn't really know. Like, I finished it and I was like. First of all, I had to, like, really think about what happened because a lot of people died, as you said, and a lot of people died kind of like. I know it's a book, but I'm gonna say, like, off screen.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes, yes.

[Cara Brown]

You know what I mean? Like, they died in a way where you just heard that they had died, which made it a little hard to fall because you would, like, meet someone and they'd be like, they're dead. And you're like, oh, okay. You know. Because you only had, like, a scene with them and then they were dead. So. Yeah. And I. I would. I guess I'm giving him a little leeway in terms of this sort of detective murder mystery thing because it's the first book, so you have to set it up because it's sort of. Right. Like, it's the canon. Like, he's not a. He's not a detective yet.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Cara Brown]

I imagine now, like, I can't even imagine what year it is in these books. He's still writing them now because it's like, 1948 or something. Probably like the 90s, first one. Yeah. It's gotta be. He's gotta be like an old, old man. Yeah. But, like, he wasn't. It wasn't really, like, a detective story, I would say.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Cara Brown]

And I think, because when I think of Walter Mosley, that's. That's what I am expecting. It left me having to, like, figure out what I just read a little bit.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. Okay, so I agree with that. I think my takeaway was, like, I enjoyed reading it. Like, I read it quickly. I was locked in. I would sit down and I would read, like, 50 pages and be like, whoa. Like, I am reading this. I found myself, by the time we sort of got to everything wrapping up, extremely confused. I mean, I took so many notes that were like, who killed who? But also, why. Like, why did that person know that other person and kill them? Because so many of the murders that happened on and off screen were by and of peripheral characters. So that was very confusing to me. Like, there's a guy, Hugh or Howard, who dies, like, at the top of the book that I don't think we actually ever meet him. We just hear about his murder and then, like, find out later that, like, Joppy did it. And I'm like, wait, yeah, why? So I think that was, like, really challenging for me. There's a huge Twist at the end, which we will get to. That I saw coming a mile away.

[Cara Brown]

Yes, yes.

[Tracy Thomas]

Mostly because I know who Walter Mosley is, and also because the. Some of the dialogue just was, like, gave it away for me. But also, that is my personal kink is. Is that kind of twist. I'm always looking for it. I'm always like, okay, so let's. Let's just dive into the book. One of the things that I feel like. I feel like one of the things that I would like to talk about with you because, you know, these things is, like, what is supposed to happen in a detective mystery? Because I also felt like this was sort of a. I felt like Walter Mosley knew or hoped there would be more to this man's story. And there's a section, like, towards the end where he's looking for Frank, and he's, like, going into the barbershop and going all these places. And I took a note that was like, this is the creation myth of Easy Rollins. Like, it's so clear to me that at this point, he's decided this will continue. So can you talk just, like, a little bit about the genre of, like, what we should be expecting?

[Cara Brown]

I mean, you know, I don't know that I'm, like, an expert, but I will say from my recent reading, what's interesting is I read a lot of the. I read a lot of books like Devil in a Blue Dress in that they were the first books in an ongoing series.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay.

[Cara Brown]

So. Because I was starting from scratch, so I read the beginning. You know, like, I read the first Agatha Christie novel with what's the dude? Perrot. Like, that guy. And then. And. Yeah, and a few other ones that were really, like, the origin stories. So it was a lot of, like, the books I was reading, they weren't people who were detectives. They were like, oh, I'm like a lady in a town. And now I. Now I do detective work because I got pulled into a murder, and this is like, my quirky life now. So I feel like, in that regard, that is what this book did. Like, it's. It set him up to go off and be a detective. I think what. Maybe this was meant to be sort of the twist or the different thing with this. You know, there is not one big murder, right. Which generally has been in the things I've been reading. There's, like, a murder, and someone is trying to solve a murder. So this very much did not have that. Instead, it had, I'm looking for this white lady. And along the way, a lot of people die. And so in that way, it definitely didn't feel like a murder mystery. It felt like a mystery, but not like we're trying to solve for a murder. I've found, too. Or at least the stories that I liked. It was. And I guess he sort of did this where it's part of this community. I think what happened with this one is, like, there's so many damn people that I, like, couldn't really get a grip on the community. Because what I liked in some of these other mystery novels was, like, okay, I'm in this small town. I'm in this community. I'm meeting the people in town. And you're like, oh, who could it be? What are their relationships with each other? They all have mysteries amongst themselves that aren't murder, but are other things they're trying to hide. And that informs, you know, the. You know, discovering the murder. This felt like. I do think he did a pretty good job of, like, placing me in Los Angeles at this time.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Cara Brown]

But I wasn't with anyone for more than, like, three pages.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Cara Brown]

So I kind of couldn't really follow how they were informing the mystery, how they were concealing the mystery. I didn't necessarily think of any of them as suspects.

[Tracy Thomas]

Right.

[Cara Brown]

Weirdly.

[Tracy Thomas]

Right. No, I think that's right. I. Yeah, I felt like it was. I was sort of confused. I mean, I think the big question for me that kept coming up is, like, why? Why? Not so much what, but, like, why? Why would this person care about that? Or, like, why what would motivate someone to murder another person in this situation? And I feel like we didn't get a lot of that. And so that was, like, really held me back. One of the things that I. I have to ask you about is the racial politics in this book, because on the back of my copy, I don't know if you have the same one as me. I have, like, the 2020 reprint. But there's a quote from the New York Times that says, more than simply a detective novel. Mosley is a talented author with something vital to say about the distance between the black and white world, and with a dramatic way to say it. And I've heard a lot of people talk about, like, his writing about race, and obviously, this book came out in 1990, but I don't think he had anything to say about race so much, or, like, he had some things, but nothing profound or interesting to me. But I'm wondering if that's just because I'm 35 years ahead of this and so it didn't feel like new or interesting.

[Cara Brown]

Yeah. I mean, we have the white cops and we have all of the bad white guys.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes.

[Cara Brown]

Which doesn't feel, I'm like, yeah, okay. Yeah. And he's mostly interacting with other black people.

[Tracy Thomas]

You know, he runs into so many white people every time he's out. It's like there's a white man in a car, he like bumps into them.

[Cara Brown]

Yeah. He has these sort of like one off kind of business arrangements, but like he's not spending time with any white people. He doesn't seem to have any relationships with any white people. I would say the closest they got was him and his boss where he's like, I'm not apologizing to this honky kind of boss. Like, you know, and I was like, that scene was kind of interesting because I think also like.

[Tracy Thomas]

Right.

[Cara Brown]

Like he's, he's actually, actually Italian. Let's just try to be funny. And so you're like, okay, so he does exist in this kind of ethnic white space where that changes their interaction or colors it in some way and he doesn't want to kowtow to him. And that's kind of interesting. But yeah, I mean, I guess the reveal we can say perhaps. Yeah. So you find out that Daphne, the woman he's the white woman he's been looking for, is in fact a mixed race black woman. Da da da da. Who has been passing as white. I guess that sayings like, I guess if you are maybe a white person that is telling you some like in the 90s, that's telling you something about passing and black people and someone's relationship with their blackness. For me now that is not telling me anything.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Cara Brown]

But I guess maybe then it was, it was some sort of revelation.

[Tracy Thomas]

I do think, I think passing stories were really big in the 90s. People were really like, what? And I think, I think we should say this though. I feel like it's stupid to do this because so many people do know. But because of a lot of pop culture things going on right now, I've seen a lot of people getting confused on passing and white presenting. So I'm just going to do a quick, just a quick one sentence each. Okay. So white passing or white presenting is a person who is not white or not completely white, who looks as if they could be white. That person still lives as a black person or person of color. There's no secrets, there's no hiding. They're just fair skinned. For example, take Danzy Senna, one of our favorite authors. She look, white as hell, okay? People think she's Jewish all the time. She is not. She writes a lot about being black. She talks about being black. That is her identity. She's just white presenting. White passing are people who look similarly to Dany, who pretend to be white. They tell people they are white. They hide their identity. These are two different things. White passing is a choice that someone makes. White presenting is just genetics. I'm not making a moral judgment on, on passing or not. I'm just laying it out for you guys, okay? So please stop calling people who are fair skinned passing. They're not passing. You just don't know that they're black.

[Cara Brown]

Do people say that?

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh my God, yes. All the time. People. All people talk about like celebrities who are really passing. Yeah, they'll be like, they'll be like, oh, Rashida Jones is passing. I'm like, no, babe, she's not. We know who her dad is. And also she looks black.

[Cara Brown]

Alternatives. Rashida. But. But I would say two in 2025. I don't know that passing is a thing any like, you know what I mean? Like, you understand passing in a time of segregation and Jim Crow and things like that where you're. It was also to some degree like a safety. Like, you know, you, you were choosing perhaps like to lead a life that felt safer or easier, whatever. Who the hell is passing in 20? Who's actively passing in 2025?

[Tracy Thomas]

People might do it. Like, I think people might pass now in situations simply to like, like at the store, you know, they might just like pretend to be a little whiter than they are so that they don't get like, you know, like little things or like going to talk to their kids, teacher or something, you know, like in, in situations, but not like light. Not like disowning their family and moving away and like, which is what it, what it could have been sometimes and what it seems like it sort of was for. For Daphne, though, AKA Ruby, though she is, has not completely abandoned her family because Frank is her brother. And that's the twist.

[Cara Brown]

And the whole time they thought they were dating, they were like, that's his, his white girlfriend.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, that's his white girlfriend. And they're having so much sex and she's like, no, you have no idea what Frank means to me. And that when she said that, I was like, that's because he's your brother and you're black. That's when I knew. There's a line where she's like, you have no idea. The relationship between Frank And I. And I was like, I now have an idea. It's sounds like.

[Cara Brown]

Well, the funny thing too, to me about. So my mother is from Louis Vieta.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes.

[Cara Brown]

My. Like, my grandmother is very, very light. And I'm also familiar with, like, black people who. A lot of people would call them white. And if you call them white, they would be like, absolutely not. You know what I mean? Like, they are very white present. And it's like, yeah. And it's like. And it's not. They're not mixed. You know what I mean? They're like, they come from a lot of light skinned people. And they're like, I am. We are all black people. So I'm very familiar with that. My grandmother's very, very light. My sister's light. I have a lot of. You know what I mean? Like.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Cara Brown]

So the funny thing for me is that as a black person, it's like the way I look at like Slash and I was like, that looks like a black person. Like, you could immediately kind of clock it. Like, we can clock it. So it's funny to me that Eazy went. The whole book. The whole book who seems to he, that man's from Louisiana. You don't know what light skinned black people look like. And you could. And then Mouse, who I guess because he knows her, but immediately clocks that that's a black woman.

[Tracy Thomas]

Right.

[Cara Brown]

I was like, well, so that's what. I figured that out.

[Tracy Thomas]

That's what I think. One of the things that Walter Mosley is saying about whiteness is that black people, and I think there's a line about this later, can trick themselves into believing in the power of whiteness if it benefits them. Like, there is something to be said about the sex scene between Coretta and Easy and the sex scene between Daphne and not Easy. Yeah, and Easy. Yeah. Like, those are different things. And like the worship of Daphne and the way that he talks about having sex with her and like the bath where she's cleansing him and like the whole, like, whiteness of that and his obsession with her is just that to me felt like the only real thing that he was saying about whiteness was like the way that black people can fool themselves into thinking that it's something special. Even when in this case she's just. She's black like the rest of us. She's just light as hell. And I think also like the title, Devil in a Blue Dress. I mean, I think you just have to add white Devil in a blue Dress and you kind of get like a little bit of what's going on here?

[Cara Brown]

Yeah. So, I mean, I would want to know, too, what you think of. So, like, aside from Daphne being this passing black woman, I feel it was. It was giving. Like, we are giving this whip. Like, listen, I know it's. It's the forties. Shit is hard. Life is hard.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Cara Brown]

But I was like, she. We were piling on with her where I was like, what type of. Like, who is this woman? And. And what is she doing? And the why of it. It sort of reminds me of, like, do you remember, like, the days of when we all watched Scandal, like, you know, in real time, and you had Melly, you know, the white first lady, who was just, like, a bitch, like, in the show, and then they revealed that she had been raped by her husband's father. And it was. It was like, oh, that's why she the bitch. And it's like, oh, God. You know what I mean? It did start these conversations of, like, using rape as sort of like, you know, a character. You know, like, to describe someone's character or something that, like. Yeah, yeah. Is just how that's messed up and not helpful and reductive and whatever. And I was feeling that reading Daphne, where I was like, okay, we're giving her these traumas that I think are meant to inform her behavior, but in a way that maybe just because I'm existing now made me roll my eyes. Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

I mean, because she also has this, like, very, very bizarre paternal rape story at a zoo. But then also, that is, like, not exactly what happened.

[Cara Brown]

Well, someone said they didn't believe it.

[Tracy Thomas]

But I think she says to him later, like, well, that's not exactly what happened was that she said. But maybe. But maybe. But maybe what she's saying is that the rape stuff did happen with the dad, but that he didn't leave the family because Frank killed him. Maybe that's what she's like, the twist of the story. Like, she had told him this whole story about how then how her dad left and how she still loved him, and she knew that what they had was, like, tender and real. And all of that felt very. Not gonna pass in 2025.

[Cara Brown]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

Like, that's just not being written now. You just cannot write it in that way. You could write it, but you'd have to do it different. You'd have to give her more time to have a redemptive arc where she realizes that she's been abused and not just leave it at, like, I loved my daddy.

[Cara Brown]

And the way it related to. She seemed to be I'm going to use a word from the time, like a floozy, kind of like that seemed to be what they were suggesting where she's sleeping with all these men. And I read that as like he's connecting, you know what I mean, with her sex life.

[Tracy Thomas]

But she's really, she's really only sleeping with two men, right? She's sleeping with Easy and she's sleeping with Todd Carter.

[Cara Brown]

But then didn't she, didn't she also date Richard?

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, the, the child pornography peddler. I thought she was just friends with him. See, this is what happened. I. I kept being like, wait, what?

[Cara Brown]

I thought she had dated him too.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, she might have.

[Cara Brown]

I don't know.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, I don't know. It's hard for me to know for sure. Listeners. I know you are rolling your eyes because you're like, Tracy, you're supposed to know. But I couldn't, I couldn't keep up. I even went back and tried to like read a synopsis, but it didn't have all the little details. Yeah, yeah, I think, I think that stuff like the book is also extremely back heavy. Like he jams in so much stuff. But one of the things I wanted to read that he says about Daphne, Ruby and that Mouse says it about Ruby and Easy is that they're taught. This is like at the denouement after we've, after we figured everything out. And then Mouse says she want to be white. All them years people telling her how she light skinned and beautiful, but all the time she knows that she can't have what white people have. So she pretend and then she lose it all. She can love a white man, but all he can love is the white girl he thinks she is. And then Easy says, what's that got to do with me? And Mao says, that's just like you, Easy, you learn stuff and you be thinking like white men be thinking. You'd be thinking that's what's right for them. Is what's right for me for you. She looked like she white and you think like you white. But brother, you don't know that you both poor and a ain't never gonna be happy unless he accept what he is. Thank you for that dramatic reading still yet. But I feel like that's sort of, you know, the thesis of the book is like when it comes down to it, she's trying to be something she's not. You're obsessed with her because you want what white people want and what white people have. And I think everything else is just sort of, like, a mess to get to that. Like one child.

[Cara Brown]

Well, it's interesting, too, because, yes. I remember reading that, and I was like, okay, yeah, we're driving at home. Yeah, yeah, yeah, we're driving home. But I'm thinking, like, other than her, other than the white woman, I'm like, okay, he wants a house.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Cara Brown]

Which I guess, you know, you could argue that, like, at the time, you're, like. You're talking about striving for things that only feel available to white people, but other than the house and, like, employment, I'm like, what else was he after that white people had? Like, what else was he striving for that felt very white other than kind of like, that security, which is maybe that's all it is.

[Tracy Thomas]

Well, I don't know. I'm thinking more. I think Mouse is also sort of getting at that. Like, he was blinded by her whiteness because he was thinking, like, he couldn't see that she was actually black because he was thinking, like, white people, you know, Like. Like.

[Cara Brown]

Yeah, but then, in what other way was. Then I'm like, in what other ways was he thinking like white people?

[Tracy Thomas]

Well, maybe because he was just letting the white people tell him what was happening, of actually thinking for himself and seeing the picture more clearly. I don't. I don't exactly.

[Cara Brown]

I do feel like every time a white man said something to him, he'd be like, that don't sound right. Let me. Like, he seemed to. He seemed to very quickly. Like, he. He. He clocked that. Like, what's it, Al. Alcott, like, the first guy, he was like, can't trust. Like, he immediately was like, can't trust this guy. He very quickly seemed to be able to recognize that there were other. They all had ulterior motives, and they were, in fact, using him for something else. So that's why I'm like, this seemed.

[Tracy Thomas]

This is after Mouse reveals that he's killed Frank. And so he said. So easy, says to him, like, you didn't have to kill him. And he. And Mouse was like, what the hell are you talking about? And then that's when he says, you're just like Ruby. Like, that. He believes that there's some sort of world and where, like, people can. Like, you know, there's, like, this white paradise where, like, people can just exist and we don't have to kill people who want to kill us. And, like, I think maybe it's, like, sort of talking about that black people are, like, more interested in what's in front of us, and white people like want to believe in these ideals that are just not true to like what's actually happening.

[Cara Brown]

Maybe it sounds like what he is saying, whether or not I'm agreeing with it, but that does seem to be like, I think that's what he's saying.

[Tracy Thomas]

Whether or not it's proved bared out. And the rest of the story is sort of. But like that's clearly what Walter Mosley wants to say to us. You know, like that's the message. Let's take a quick break and then I want to talk about the house. Hey friends, it's me, Tracy. Obviously, if you've been enjoying the Stacks and want to keep the bookish vibes going between episodes, I've got two places you should check out the Stacks Pack on Patreon, which is my readerly community, and my newsletter unstacked over on Substack. It is May, which means at the end of this month I will be releasing my non fiction reading guide. It will contain 30 plus non fiction books that I recommend to you based on theme content, vibes and it is exclusive to paid members on Patreon and Substack. So now is the time to subscribe so that you make sure you get this reading guide for summer. In addition to my nonfiction reading guide, I've got a bunch of other perks going on all year long, like bonus episodes. If you join on the Patreon, you can have access to our Discord. We've got that mega reading challenge. I have weekly paid posts over on Substack. There's just so much stuff going on. So if you want more of me, if you want more of my takes, if you want more bookish community, check out the Patreon and the Substack. And also know that by paying for my work, you you make it possible for me to offer this podcast for free to anyone who wants to listen all year long. To join the patreon, head to patreon.com thestacks and to subscribe to the newsletter head to Tracy thomas.substack.com Thank you. Craving your next action packed adventure, Audible delivers thrills of every kind on your command. Like Project Hail Mary by Andy Weird, where a lone astronaut must save humanity from extinction. Narrated with stunning intensity by Ray Porter. From electrifying suspense and daring quests to spine tingling horror and romance in far off realms, unleash your adventure aside with gripping titles that'll keep you guessing. Discover exclusive Audible originals, hotly anticipated new releases and must listen bestsellers that hook you from the first minute. Because Audible people Knows there's no greater thrill than the one that speaks to you. Discover what lies beyond the edge of your seat. Start your free 30 day trial at audible.com wondery us that's audible.com wondery us okay, we're back. I want to talk about the house because I actually think it's one of the most important parts of the entire book. So the reason that Easy does all of this stuff goes with DeWitt Albright, tries to find Daphne, wants the money is because he owns a house in Los Angeles in 1948. As a black person, for those of you who don't know a lot about black American history, shame on you. But also, there's a thing called the Great Migration that easy is a huge part of. It's black people moving from the south to the north and the west between 1917 and the 1970s, basically post World War I, up through the end of Vietnam, let's say. And the reason that they left was for racial terror, for opportunities, etc, etc, etc, etc. Owning property was basically not possible for black people in the American south at the time. So I think that this, like, owning the house as the reason he does stuff is maybe one of the most compelling reasons for someone to do dumb fuckery. Is like, you know, sometimes I'll read like a romance novel and I'll be like this and that and this that. I'm like, if you guys had just talked to each other, this would be solved. Like, I felt like this was a strong enough why that you could understand a person who's just come back from a war having witnessed all these things, having left his home and feeling like this is a piece of property and land that I own that belongs to me and no matter what, it is mine. And meanwhile, in other parts of the country, there's these stories coming back of like black people who have bought homes where. In white neighborhoods where the white people are driving them out or torturing them or pulling them out of their house and murdering them. Like, there's all these crazy stories around property. And so I think, like, historically, this is the most believable and important thing in the entire book.

[Cara Brown]

Yeah. And coupled with him getting laid off because he was talking back.

[Tracy Thomas]

Right.

[Cara Brown]

It seemed to be this reaction. Right. That he was kind of mouthy with his.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, he was like, lazy, didn't do what they wanted him to do when they wanted to.

[Cara Brown]

His Italian ex boss, he. And the scene where he went back and wouldn't apologize, I was like, that was pretty satisfying. I was like, yeah, I was like. And so the combination of not wanting to sort of degrade himself and grovel for his job back, but then still needing to hang on to the house was actually like a legitimate. Like, yeah, that's a really strong reason for going forth and doing these things, because I was like, yeah, you're. You're protecting this thing that is very important to you, and also your previous means of maintaining it now feel like not something you're willing, you know, you're not willing to sort of give up your dignity to continue on. And I was like, yeah, that's. I was like, sure, easy, right?

[Tracy Thomas]

And that's the whole reason why someone would uproot their life in one place to move to another place, right? It's like the whole point of him coming to California is so that he could own land, is so that he could have upward mobility. So the idea that he would do anything to hold on to that felt justifiable at least, but, like, extremely compelling to me, I think, is how I would say.

[Cara Brown]

Well, I will say in other mysteries that I've read, it's generally this, like, I'm curious. It's usually like, it's a lot of, like, I'm just. So when it's. When it's an. When it's like a civilian detective. Yeah, we know when it's a real detective. Okay, they have to go solve the mystery. But. But when it's a person who gets sucked in, it's like they're just a curious person. Or for example, in one of the series. I read series earlier, the three of them. But she was a mystery writer. And so part of the reason that she fall was following this mystery because it was like, oh, maybe there's juice for the book. Or like, you know, and this feels like a much more solid reason to go down a path that's clearly dangerous.

[Tracy Thomas]

Right?

[Cara Brown]

Then, oh, I'm bored. And this seems like I'm right. I'm just sort of like, being nosy, right?

[Tracy Thomas]

Because, like, as the alarm bells are going off, it's like, okay, but he still does it. And so we need a why. And this why totally worked for me. Usually this. Usually this part is always like, the least compelling part in the thriller or mystery. I'm always like, okay, but, like, why are you doing this? Like, go home, take a bath.

[Cara Brown]

Well, it's. It's funny too, because I. I was prepared for, like, the racial politics to be off. Like, I already primed myself from that. So sort of like, I'm not going to let myself get too Bogged down by. By this. And it. You're right. Like, I was flying through it. It was like, a fun read. I think I. It just was like, the ending. You were like, ah, what did I like? If the book were twice as long as. Like, if I had been reading it and realized there was twice as much book left, that would have made more sense to me, but because it did all just like, I'm introduced to people, these things are happening. Oh, this is interesting. This is interesting. And it's wrapped up in such a, like, quick, kind of random way that, to me, is what. So that. So then when you ended it, you were like, huh? Even though while I'd been reading it, I had been. I had been like, okay, yeah, yeah, here we go.

[Tracy Thomas]

Same. I was with it. I was with it. I mean, I rarely say a book could have been longer, but I think this one could have. Like, we needed a little more fleshing out in the last 50 pages, because so much happens. I mean, Mouse shows up on page 150, and the book ends on 219. Mouse kills, like, nine people. Mouse is a killing machine.

[Cara Brown]

Can we talk about the mayoral candidate with the weird trafficked child, which we barely. Barely touch on? And then he's murdered. And you're like, who the hell killed him? And for what? You know, you're. Why?

[Tracy Thomas]

But then we find out that Daphne killed him. But why did she kill him? Do you know?

[Cara Brown]

It's. I. My guess. I thought it was because the child was being abused, and she was empathizing with the abused child, and so she killed. That's what I thought that was because I'm like, why the hell else do we have this? I see child here, if not to be sort of, you know, something that's motivating death. Okay, that's what I thought.

[Tracy Thomas]

This makes sense. Okay, thank you.

[Cara Brown]

But, you know, I literally have a.

[Tracy Thomas]

List of everyone that I came up with who's dead. And then I have who killed them. And then next to some of them, I just have why? And then for the other ones, I have the reason. I think that we were told why. I don't think that easy kills anyone.

[Cara Brown]

No, he doesn't.

[Tracy Thomas]

Which is crazy, because I'm like, you should be killing people. He's gone to jail, like, three times for allegedly killing people, but killed a single person.

[Cara Brown]

I. I will say I understand how. Especially when this book came out, and it's. You know, there's a. It's a black man at the center of it, and it. It is not following some of these mystery tropes, but it does scratch a similar itch because you're. It's like he actually can't kill anyone because if he's the detective. You know what I mean? Like, the detective can't be killing people too. Like that.

[Tracy Thomas]

That's true. That's true.

[Cara Brown]

That feels like mayhem and not. And. And so, yeah, he kind of can't. But he's, like, surrounded by her.

[Tracy Thomas]

Just like everyone he knows is. Like, literally everyone he knows is murdered or murdering.

[Cara Brown]

My favorite was. Who was the. Junior, the bouncer.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, yes. Junior killed Richard the sex child sex trafficker.

[Cara Brown]

Which you're just like, huh? And whatever Junior's reason for killing this guy, it's like, I guess that's okay, fine, whatever. You felt like you need to kill him, but you're like, why do I care that he killed this guy? And why are you killing. Why is he so casually murdering people?

[Tracy Thomas]

And his reason for killing was because he was trafficking the child.

[Cara Brown]

Was. I thought it was that he. That man owed him some money, and he went over there and he tracked it. I thought that's what it was. Like they got into some sort of disagreement.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, I know, because he. He did go over there because he took him home because he was drunk. Remember, we see him early, and he's like the drunk guy at the bar. And then.

[Cara Brown]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

Wasn't it, like, take him.

[Cara Brown]

Wasn't it like he was. I thought it was like, he was supposed to pay him something, and.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh. And then he got mad and he just, like, snapped. I don't know.

[Cara Brown]

I think so. Because why is Junior killing him for being a child trafficker?

[Tracy Thomas]

I. Because he likes kids. I don't know. He just thinks he's icky. I don't know. But the best part is, at the very end of the book, the book ends on 219 at 2:16. After easy is like, I got Carter to clear me, so the cops are gonna leave me alone. And he's like, you know, no big deal. And then literally at the end of the book, he's like. He's talking to him, and he's like, you know, you're going to spend the rest of your life in jail. And then someone says, you could try Junior Forney against that print. And he says, who? And he says, the bouncer at John's. He might fit it. I'm like, easy, you just sold this man out at the end of the book. Like, we made it to the very end. What happened to, like, you know, don't talk to the Cops. He's over here being like, by the way, I'm clear. But have you ever heard of Junior? I want to check him out.

[Cara Brown]

It seems so unnecessary because he'd already gotten off.

[Tracy Thomas]

That's what I'm saying.

[Cara Brown]

I'm like, yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

And earlier in the book, he's like, I know nobody's going to talk to the police because we don't talk to the police. And then he's like, by the way, just hot tip for you guys. You know Junior, here's his number. This is his mom. His blood type. Just check it all out.

[Cara Brown]

Also, okay, so Junior killed Richard. Richard was the child trafficker who presumably trafficked the mayoral candidates child to him.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes.

[Cara Brown]

And we care about the mayoral candidate because we taught something with Todd.

[Tracy Thomas]

Because Todd. Yeah, it's a guy. So. Okay. Did you watch the movie?

[Cara Brown]

I was going to, and then I decided not to because I didn't know how different they would be. So I was like, oh, I don't want to talk about the book. You know what I mean? I was like, I don't want to talk about the movie stuff, but I'm.

[Tracy Thomas]

Gonna spoil the movie a little bit for you.

[Cara Brown]

Please. I did.

[Tracy Thomas]

I watched last night. Okay, okay, okay. I. Oh, right. That's right. You said on Sam. I don't like spoilers because my whole joy of, like, reading is trying to figure things out. So I hate to be spoiled. So hot. Take. The movie is better than the book. Yeah, that's believable because the movie makes it make sense. In the movie, we get all the way up to the scene where he sort of, like, rescues her and takes her to, like, the safe house place. It's not the exact same. They do not have sex. They do not kiss. The white. And him. There's no sex between him and Daphne. There is sex with him and Coretta. What they do is in that scene, he's like. There's pictures of the mayoral Kennet Tehran with the child. Daphne has spent $7,000 to get these pictures because Tehran knows that she's black. And Todd Carter. Yes, and Todd, because he's blackmailing her, basically. And Todd Carter, her white boyfriend, he is also running for mayor, so they're competing. And he drops out of the race because he finds out she's black and doesn't want this to happen. And so she buys the pictures in the hopes. So Todd. So Albright is actually hired by Taron in the movie to get the pictures and get her. So he also knows she's black.

[Cara Brown]

That's much better.

[Tracy Thomas]

It makes so much more sense. So Albright is working for Tehran. Taron knows she's black. Carter knows she's black. And Taron and Carter are against each other for the mayoral race. She does not kill Taron in the book or in the movie. There's. He doesn't die, basically, the. Carter's just able to run again, and then she leaves town. Her. And frankly, town. Frank also does not die in the movie.

[Cara Brown]

I think what this is helping me identify with the book, where Easy's drive makes a lot of sense. And I think what was losing us was everyone else's was very wonky, and they're doing very dangerous, serious shit for very flimsy reasons.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes.

[Cara Brown]

In the version you just talked about in the movie, it's like, oh, that's what they shored up. Like, I imagine, like, that's what they had to fix for the movie, because then I don't need that big of a reason for killing. Like, especially, like, in a time with no DNA testing, I'm like, yeah, it was much easier to get away with shit. And it was just a way, you know, like, I would believe that that's the way you'd solve this problem.

[Tracy Thomas]

Right.

[Cara Brown]

And, yeah, it's like, that's what was hard with the book is like, you were thrown a lot of murder, a lot of things for reasons that didn't make sense. Eazy seemed to be the only person who was kind of moving in a way that you could track. And solving for that would. Would really shore up the story.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. And also, Joppy still kills Coretta, but it's an accident in the movie. He's supposed to just go scare her because she's gonna talk about Daphne or, like, she knows about the pictures or something.

[Cara Brown]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

So he's supposed to scare her, and then he ends up killing her. So, like, it just. Everything in the movie is around Daphne being white and Tehran being a sexual predator, and the rest of it is.

[Cara Brown]

Yeah, there's.

[Tracy Thomas]

There's no superfluous things. Like, there's no murder of Frank. There's just, like, less death, more streamlined passing sexual abuse together. Also, Daphne does not have a sexual abuse storyline in the movie.

[Cara Brown]

I was getting a little bit. It felt a little Chinatown, where you're like, okay, I'm in Los Angeles at this period of time, and it's like politics and, like, it's. It's that, like, noir type vibe.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Cara Brown]

But. But nothing was making sense. And so to lean into even just the politics of that of, like, they're both running for mayor, there's scandals that feels like. Yeah, like that. That feeds into that kind of noir, again, Chinatown type thing that I'm like, oh, yeah, I get like. And you have all of these powerful people who are operating in a way that's, like, beyond your grasp. Like, you kind of can't do anything about it, and you get caught up in it. And now, like, here I am, just this one individual, you know, like, trying to do right. Which, yeah, it feels like, you know, maybe. Maybe if he had. Who gave him notes? Who gave him notes, maybe someone should have.

[Tracy Thomas]

I mean, it's. This is his debut. So I think one of the things that's really interesting is, like, usually I feel like with authors, their debut, even if it's a hit, doesn't supersede the rest of their career. But I feel like Walter Mosley is still known for this book, and I. I have to assume that he's gotten better as a writer. He's written, like, 60 books, you know. But I think it's interesting that, like, a lot of people's introduction to him is his first book, because I don't think that happens a lot. I mean, I think, like, Amy Tan. Yes. I think Toni Morrison, maybe with the bluest eye, but most people know her. Her best book is beloved. Like, yeah. I think that there. There is another book that people read of hers that, like, helps them to sort of contextualize everything. And for him, it's like his greatest book was his first book. And. And the movie also becomes this huge phenomenon. And so I think people go back to the book in a way that maybe they wouldn't if not for Denzel, like, being hot.

[Cara Brown]

And if you think about it in terms of you had to write an origin story, which can be hard and is not necessarily indicative of, you know, like, what the rest of the stories are going to look like. It's. Because I feel like even when I think about it that way, like, to me, it's very obvious that Eazy can't kill anyone. If, you know he's going to go become a detective. If you sit down saying, I'm starting a detective series. Yeah. You cannot have this man killing people in this book, because that's gonna look crazy on book 47 or whatever. Right.

[Tracy Thomas]

Cause then he's a mercenary or he's a gangster. He's not a detective.

[Cara Brown]

Yes, exactly. So if you know that and you know that that's hopefully what you're planning on doing in the future, that then when you end the book where you're it's like, all these people have been killed, but he's done nothing. It's like, okay, that makes a little bit more sense. If I know that this is going to continue and I'm going to keep following this character and, like, I'm going to keep seeing them. Like, it tells me something about how they operate in the world. So it almost feels like a. Just. It's a really long origin story.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Cara Brown]

You know, I think that's right. Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

And I also think, like you said, who's giving him notes? And I actually wonder how much went into this book, because he was sort of the first to do this. Like, this black mystery writer, you know, you know, of. Like, he's. He's a legend in the field. He invent. I mean, everyone gives him credit for inventing the black Detective. Obviously, he didn't, but, like, so I do wonder, knowing what I know about publishing in 2025, how little goes into black debut authors. I'm wondering how much feedback he did get. Like, I'm wondering if, you know, he was sort of like, they're like, this is good enough. Like, no one's going to read this. Who cares? Let's churn it out. And then when the movie becomes a thing and, you know, people like it and they decide to make the movie, a lot more effort and money goes into it because you get Denzel Washington and it's like, okay, we got to flesh this out. Like, there's only, like, we can only make this work if we can make this work in a way that he probably did not have that kind of time and attention.

[Cara Brown]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

In the late 80s, early 90s, as the book's coming out.

[Cara Brown]

And to me, the notes are mostly about the mystery part of it. Like, that's, you know, like, I think the. The color of the book is like, yeah, that's there.

[Tracy Thomas]

It's more like it's like, who did what and why? Like, someone needed to be like, this doesn't make sense.

[Cara Brown]

Yeah. Like, hey, man, you're writing a mystery. Let's just shore up a couple things or maybe let's get rid of a couple characters or whatever. Yeah, that's the kind of. That, to me, is the kind of feedback that I'm like, oh, was. Was that there? Because clearly it's sort of given what you're saying about the movie. It's sort of the most obvious thing you would sit down to do once you're revisiting the material.

[Tracy Thomas]

Totally, totally. I want to talk about the character of Mouse quickly because he. To Your point of, like, Easy can't do anything wrong, like, he can't kill anybody is the foil. He. He's the mercenary. We. We learn about him early, you know, as soon as Easy meets DeWitt, he's like. He reminds me of a fellow I knew back home, my best friend, Mouse, a fucking crazy guy. And we. Mouse killed his stepfather, who was, like, holding money. And we find out that Mouse loves to kill people, especially for money, and is a cold blooded killer and a great hang. Great guy, best friend.

[Cara Brown]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

But also morally bankrupt when it comes to money and murder. I mean, to the point that when he does show up at 150, easy is like, I can't tell him that Daphne has money because he'll just kill her and take the money. Like, he only is here to kill people.

[Cara Brown]

Something that feels very obvious that's only now really jumping into my head is if I'm also reminded that they're all veterans. I wonder if, like, the way we're looking at a veteran committing murder feels different, like, from. From World War II. If it's like, well, they've seen some shit or they were, they were. They'd been in this space where this is what they were told to do and, like, that's impacted them. And so I wonder if anything about them being veterans is supposed to explain these tendencies a little bit.

[Tracy Thomas]

Well, one of the notes I had taken was how I thought that the, like, depiction of PTSD was really interesting in the book. Like, Easy is so violent and obsessed with violence. Like the scene at the pier where the white people are harassing him, and he, like, has this, like, fantasy of, like, like murdering them and destroying them. And, like, he sees the eyes of the Germans. And like, that part, to me, I was, I was, I was surprised by. Because I'd never heard anybody really talk about that with this book. But that really jumped out at me. Like, the flashing back, the voice that he has that comes on page, like, 99 that tells him what to do and only shows up in the worst moments and is just cut and dry. Do this, do that. I'm like, oh, that's like the personification of ptsd, right? It's like he shuts down and it's fight or flight. And I. And I think throughout the book, the violence that's running through Easy's head is really, really interesting.

[Cara Brown]

Yeah. And I will say for me, with Mouse, I mean, he's not. He's like a scary character. But I did find it very funny, that one. He was like, oh, yeah, that's Ruby. That's a black lady. Like, immediately. And I thought it was very funny that as I read it, his kind of whole reason for coming down is because, like, his, like his girlfriend is pissed at him and he's like, oh, I come back and bring some money. Maybe she'll take me back. And I was like, you came down here and did all this shit to get your girl back? Like, that sort of seems to have been his main motivator for all of this. And then he's like, got my money, Maybe she'll take me back now. And I was like, he's kind of funny if he weren't so terrifying.

[Tracy Thomas]

So in the book he's very scary, but in the movie he's played by Don Cheadle and he has a little bit more of that, like, just gotta kill people. Like, it's definitely more like, oh, shucks, murderer as opposed to like, killer. And he's very drunk in the movie, he's sort of like goof, a little goofy, which is really different than how I had imagined him. But I actually think it makes again, more sense because you already have the joppy character who's kind of scary and big.

[Cara Brown]

Yes.

[Tracy Thomas]

And Mouse was sort of the same in the book as joppy, scary and big.

[Cara Brown]

Easy is he's a pretty, like, straight laced guy for the most. Like, he seems pretty. Seems pretty serious.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Cara Brown]

And so having someone who is a little funnier, who's a little like more flamboyant or whatever does feel like a good foil to the easy we're presented with.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, I think that's right. I mean, I think. I think Mouse in the book still provides like a little bit of that levity because he just shows up and it's just killed.

[Cara Brown]

Like shows up in a zoot shoot just ready to kill.

[Tracy Thomas]

That's exactly right. Okay. I'm trying to think if there's anything else that I wanted to make sure we. Well, can we just quickly talk about that insane sex scene?

[Cara Brown]

Oh, my God. You go first.

[Tracy Thomas]

I mean, like, so they kiss early in the book and I was like, what's going on here?

[Cara Brown]

Then they go to the kisses him also.

[Tracy Thomas]

She kisses him.

[Cara Brown]

They make a point to be like. She kissed him.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes.

[Cara Brown]

And he's like, oh, my God, the white lady kissed me.

[Tracy Thomas]

Right. And then they go to the safe house and he takes a bath. She puts him in the bath. He's in a bath and she's washing him.

[Cara Brown]

Wasn't he hurt?

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, yes, because he'd been beaten up by the cops.

[Cara Brown]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

That's right. So she gives him a bath, and she's washing him from his toes to his head. And he. We found out quite early on in the bath that he has a large erection. She, like, lifts it. His penis up to clean. And then she's like, I have to pee. And go, yeah. And peace while he's in the bath. And then they start having sex. And then have so much sex that it hurts his penis. That she's, like, turned on by that. They continue having so much sex. And then she's like, I love you. And he's like, I love you. We love each other. And then he's like, but don't you love Frank? And that's when she's like, you have no idea my relationship with Frank. This is. This is my 1940s. This is called acting. And then they have a lot more sex. Like, it's just so much sex. The writing is so weird. There's so much I love you, which is bizarre.

[Cara Brown]

Then they go have that weird Chinese dinner.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, yeah.

[Cara Brown]

Like, they go to that Chinese restaurant.

[Tracy Thomas]

And that's when she confesses. Confesses the story about her dad. Right.

[Cara Brown]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was out of nowhere, like, it was very surprising. Like, not necessarily that they, like, hooked up, but it was just like, oh, we're really getting it. Like.

[Tracy Thomas]

Like, we're really going into a sex scene.

[Cara Brown]

And. And for a book that isn't very long, a disproportionate amount of pages, I would argue.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Cara Brown]

To which. Because it has very little ultimate relevance in the story, like, it's not like they've actually fallen in love.

[Tracy Thomas]

Right.

[Cara Brown]

I guess it's tying back to what Mouse tells. Tells him at the end about, you know, you're thinking white and all. Like, I guess.

[Tracy Thomas]

Right.

[Cara Brown]

But I feel like we already kind of got, like, if that's the point you were making, we already sort of got that. Because you could tell that he was starting to become enamored with her.

[Tracy Thomas]

Right.

[Cara Brown]

So I'm kind of like, what was the point? Like, what were we supposed. What exactly were we supposed to take from this? Because you dedicated a lot of. Of writing to it.

[Tracy Thomas]

A lot of space. A lot of space to this, like, magical white woman sex scene. And. And, like, the love part, it's just. It was.

[Cara Brown]

Yeah. They love each other. You're right. I saw her.

[Tracy Thomas]

But she also loves Todd Carter so much.

[Cara Brown]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

And I'm like. Like, that's her real true love, and he knows her better than any. Like, that whole part. I mean, I think your overall point of, like, Easy has very clear motivations and is very clear to the reader and everyone else is extremely confusing. And so when he interacts with all these people, I'm just like, what is happening? Which is part of the reason why me, a person who takes extensive notes as I read for book club, is like, wait, what happened in that scene? Because there's so many scenes in so many places and nobody makes sense except for Easy.

[Cara Brown]

Well, I. The other thing with Easy is that throughout the book, he's very careful. Like, he's very, very careful about who he's talking to, how he's talking to them, what he's revealing, what he's letting people know, what he tells the cops. He's just very. He's. He's. He's very careful. This was insane. So I'm like, in what? Like. And it wasn't like you could tell he was. He was sort of, like, attracted to her and whatever, but it wasn't like, oh, my God, I'm so obsessed with her. I'm overcome. I'm throwing all caution to the wind. It was like you did something very hairless and just sort of, you know, where I'm like. It just felt unlike the person we have been with for the whole book, with not a lot of lead up between them.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. Yeah, I think that's right. It was. It was surprising. And it just did sort of feel.

[Cara Brown]

Like a man wrote it, where it's.

[Tracy Thomas]

Just like, for sure.

[Cara Brown]

All of a sudden, we're giving the bets. Like, yeah, they've had very little, like, interaction that is romantic or flirty or anything. They've had sort of like. They've had, like, intimate. You know, it's like the murder, and he's protecting her. You know, they find a body, but they haven't had. There's no vibes. There's very few vibes between them. And then. But all of a sudden they get to the house and it's like, all bets are off. It's like, this does sound like a man wrote this for sure.

[Tracy Thomas]

And I think, again, like, that speaks to the moment of, like, this black guy getting to write this book. He's clearly writing to other black men. Like, his audience is clearly black men. Which I think is great, because I do think, like, in the literary landscape, even today, there are not that many books that are written to black men. There's a lot more books that are written to black women and obviously white women and white men. But he really does sort of carve out this space for himself. And I think he does it because he's like, who needs backstory? Let's get to the fucking.

[Cara Brown]

Fucking.

[Tracy Thomas]

So much. All day, every day. Inside, outside, upstairs, downstairs at the Chinese restaurant. Hey, hey. Like, it's just like, let's get it to that point.

[Cara Brown]

Like, I definitely get why. I'm like, I get why this is popular. I get why, like. And I'm like, yeah, getting a news. Like, not a new segment of people to read, but like an un. An underserved market. I like, I get why Easy is an appealing character to men, to black men. Like, he is, you know, he's like a quote unquote. He's like a pretty upstanding guy. He has a lot of, like, pride. He is a hard worker. He has this house. He has these goals. He's like a man, you know, I'm like, I. I get. And, you know, you see him mostly do the right thing. So it's like, I get why this would be appealing. And you're kind of like, you've presented me with this person. He's got caught up in some and now it's solved. Yeah, Like, I can see how that would satisfy a lot of people.

[Tracy Thomas]

Well, and I feel like I. As much as I'm like, harping on the little details, overall, I sort of like this book. Like, I had a great time. It was sort of a mess, but I was like, this is great. What a mess. And it was only at the end where I was like, have no clue what happened. But I was with it the entire way. Even in the sex scene. I was like, sure. They're like, yeah, of course. Like, it didn't feel so out of left field. It just was confusing. I also think in the timeline of Walter Mosley's life, this is his debut. It comes out in 1990. He was born in 1952. So he's 38 years old when the book comes out. The character of Easy is super young. I think he's like 25 or 28 or something. So that also tracks of just being like, I know I'm not supposed to kiss this white woman, but if she kisses me, like, it's odd.

[Cara Brown]

You know, he also gets with his friend, girlfriend, while he's in the other room. So you're like, I guess this is like, yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

And I think maybe that is a character trait. Like, he's really cautious except for when it comes to sex. Like, he's just a horny 20 something. Like, that's like the way to get to him. That and alcohol.

[Cara Brown]

Yeah, it was. I mean, Again, the way I had been reading these mysteries recently was because, like, I don't really like that, like, guilty pleasure, like, pool book. Like, I'm like, we know what we mean. But, like, whatever. You can read anything by pool, but there is that, like. Yeah, a book that. It's like a. It's like a nice, dry white wine that goes down easy. You're like. And it was like, $12. It's like a $12 bottle that goes down really easy. And I'm like, hell, yeah, I'll drink that. And I feel like these books, a lot of these mysteries for me, are in that category of, like, get me the lady out in the house, and she's following the thing, and I'm getting all these descriptors about tea time even. Honestly, I really liked the scene at that Chinese restaurant when. When they were like, you can get it with the meats, and you can get it with this, and you can get three things. Yeah, I was like. I actually. I was like. It was for that period of time, like, in the 40s, that part of L. A having, you know, all of these different people of color in this city and where they were and how they were living. I was like, that's actually really interesting and readable. So, like, yeah, I, too. Yes. Like, there are a lot of things you can harp at, but I'm like, ultimately, it did feel like that $12 bottle of white wine where I'm like, yeah, it's exactly.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. And I think that's hard. Like, I don't think. I think it's easy to pick, like, a book like this apart because we're assholes. But I feel like it's not easy to write something like this. I feel like that usually becomes extremely bad quickly, you know? Like, it's like, I cannot finish this. I already have a wine headache. I also think we didn't mention this and we're out of time, but I do want to just say I loved seeing L. A. I loved it living here, knowing all the different neighborhoods, knowing that he was driving to Malibu from Watts. I was like, baby, What?

[Cara Brown]

Like, at 9:00pm when he talked about, you know, like, East LA and, like, the. The Mexican. His Mexican friend and, like, all of, like, that community and that neighborhood. And I was like, yeah, this was right. And, like, I am a little bit. He's, like, driving down La Cienega. It's like, yeah, I know. La Cienega, too.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes, totally.

[Cara Brown]

He did paint. He did. He did paint a picture of LA at that period of time that felt Specific and, like, satisfying and interesting and, like, I was like, yeah, here we are.

[Tracy Thomas]

I think that's right. I think that's exactly right. Here we are. Devil in a Blue Dress by Walter Mosley. Well, we've made it to the end, everybody. Make sure you listen to the end. End. End of today's episode to find out what our June book club pick will be. And, Kara Brown, this. I know I harassed you to get you to come on the show, but it was fucking worth it. You are a dream guest. You remain a dream guest. Thank you so, so much for doing this with me.

[Cara Brown]

Thank you for having me. And, you know, an ask and an email is not harassment. And, well, I harassed you at the party.

[Tracy Thomas]

I, like, ran up to you and was like, I have to meet you. I'm a fan.

[Cara Brown]

No, but this. This is very fun. And also, I don't know that I would have read this book otherwise, so thank you for that.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yay. All right, and everybody else, we will see you in the stacks. All right, y' all, thank you so much for listening, and thank you again to Kara Brown for being my guest. Okay, now it's time for what you've all been waiting for. The announcement of our June book club pick, which is the Art Thief. A True Story of Love, Crime and a Dangerous Obsession by Michael Finkel. This work of narrative nonfiction is about a prolific art thief who stole but never sold over $2 billion worth of art. It has been destroyed, described as, quote, the most remarkable true crime narratives of our time. A riveting story of art theft, love, and insatiable hunger to possess beauty at all costs. We will discuss this book on Wednesday, June 25, and you can tune in next week to find out who our guest will be. If you love the show and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com the stacks to join the Stacks Pack community and check out my newsletter@tracy thomas.substack.com make sure you're subscribed to the Stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts. And if you're listening through Apple podcasts or Spotify, please leave us a rating and a review. For more from the Stacks, follow us on social media at the Stacks Pod, on Instagram threads and Tick Tock and check out our website, thestaxpodcast.com Today's episode of the Stacks was edited by Christian Duenas with production assistance from Waikia Freelo. A graphic designer is Robin McRite, and our theme music is from Takirajis. The Stacks is created and produced by me Tracy Thomas.