Ep. 374 Petty Good or Petty Bad with Ceara O’Sullivan

Summary

Podcast Summary: Ep. 374 Petty Good or Petty Bad with Kira O’Sullivan

Podcast Information:

• Title: The Stacks
• Host: Tracy Thomas
• Guest: Kira O’Sullivan
• Episode Title: Petty Good or Petty Bad with Kira O’Sullivan
• Release Date: June 4, 2025

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1. Introduction

In Episode 374 of The Stacks, host Tracy Thomas welcomes Kira O’Sullivan, an accomplished actor, comedian, SNL writer, and co-host of the Petty Crimes podcast. The episode delves into the nuances of pettiness, storytelling, and the impact of literature on personal and professional life.

2. Kira’s Background and Relationship with Books [00:40 - 03:34]

Kira shares her nomadic upbringing, having moved across multiple states due to her father's trucking job. This frequent relocation fostered her deep love for reading, as books became her primary companions during her formative years.

Kira O’Sullivan [00:03]: "Things hold value because of how much they matter to us."

Her diverse experiences across New Jersey, Michigan, Ohio, and New York enriched her literary tastes, transitioning from fantasy and YA novels in her youth to adult fiction and autobiographies.

3. The Concept of Pettiness [04:37 - 27:27]

The conversation shifts to pettiness, exploring its roots in personal experiences and cultural perceptions. Kira attributes her petty tendencies to her challenging name pronunciation and her frequent interactions with real estate agents during her childhood.

Kira O’Sullivan [05:27]: "Saying my name wrong is not a nickname."

Tracy and Kira discuss how pettiness can be both constructive and destructive, differentiating between petty actions and outright malicious behavior. They highlight how small grievances, when magnified, can lead to significant interpersonal drama.

4. Petty Crimes Podcast [17:48 - 21:35]

Kira introduces her Petty Crimes podcast, a unique blend of true crime and comedy focusing on interpersonal drama rather than violent crimes. Each episode dissects a listener-submitted petty incident, deliberating guilt and appropriate "sentencing."

Kira O’Sullivan [17:55]: "It's a true crime comedy podcast where we only investigate basically, interpersonal drama."

She emphasizes the show's commitment to highlighting how seemingly trivial disputes can hold substantial personal significance, reinforcing the idea that storytelling can amplify the weight of everyday occurrences.

5. Book Recommendations and Reading Habits [35:22 - 48:27]

Tracy and Kira engage in a lively book recommendation segment. They discuss favorite reads, disliked titles, and strategies for managing multiple books through a combination of physical and audiobook formats.

Tracy Thomas [38:00]: "I think that's normal."

Kira shares her penchant for summer-heavy reading and her method of alternating between audiobooks and physical copies to maximize her reading time despite a busy schedule.

6. Memoir vs. Autobiography [53:19 - 54:40]

The duo delves into the distinctions between memoirs and autobiographies, emphasizing the subjective nature of memoirs based on personal memories and emotions versus the factual recounting in autobiographies.

Tracy Thomas [53:24]: "Memoir is based in memory. It's usually supposed to be about one event or topic."

They discuss the challenges of interpreting memoirs, especially when personal recollections differ from others' memories of the same events.

7. Influence of Books on Career [56:11 - 60:04]

Kira reflects on how memoirs by figures like Amy Poehler and Tina Fey inspired her to pursue a career in television writing, particularly at Saturday Night Live. She recounts her interactions with these influential women, highlighting the profound impact their stories had on her professional aspirations.

Kira O’Sullivan [57:18]: "They didn't impact me and make me think that I could be a television writer and be a woman in comedy and write for Saturday Night Live."

8. Favorite Adaptations [59:34 - 63:00]

The conversation transitions to book-to-screen adaptations. Kira praises the Little Fires Everywhere TV series for surpassing the book's quality and lauds Legally Blonde as a standout example where the adaptation enhanced the original material.

Kira O’Sullivan [59:38]: "I read Little Fires Everywhere, and then I watched Little Fires Everywhere. I did enjoy it more on TV."

Tracy shares her enthusiasm for Legally Blonde and its subsequent musical adaptation, expressing excitement over the upcoming prequel series on Amazon Prime.

9. Audience Interaction and Questions [28:12 - 35:22]

Tracy addresses a listener's request for book recommendations on historical events, suggesting titles on the War on Terror. Kira adds to the list by recommending Irish literature, reflecting her personal interest and heritage.

Kira O’Sullivan [35:22]: "Brooklyn by Colton Tobin, and I'm thinking of Angela's Ashes by Frank McCourt."

10. Conclusion and Book Club Announcement [63:36 - 65:10]

As the episode wraps up, Tracy announces the next Stacks Book Club selection: The Art Thief by Michael Finkel. She encourages listeners to read the book by June 25th for an in-depth discussion with Kira O’Sullivan in the upcoming episode.

Tracy Thomas [63:36]: "Our book club pick this month is The Art Thief by Michael Finkel, which we will discuss on Wednesday, June 25th with Kira O’Sullivan."

Kira expresses her excitement about the selection, and both hosts extend heartfelt thanks to listeners and supporters, highlighting the community aspect of The Stacks.

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Notable Quotes:

• Kira O’Sullivan [00:03]: "Things hold value because of how much they matter to us."
• Tracy Thomas [05:05]: "You should have a strong opinion about it because it's your literal name."
• Kira O’Sullivan [17:55]: "We only investigate basically, interpersonal drama."
• Tracy Thomas [35:22]: "Gina, I just released my nonfiction reading guide in May."
• Kira O’Sullivan [57:18]: "They didn't impact me and make me think that I could be a television writer and be a woman in comedy."

Key Takeaways:

• Pettiness as a Storytelling Tool: Both hosts explore how minor grievances can be amplified in storytelling, adding depth and relatability to narratives.

• Influence of Literature on Personal Growth: Kira underscores the role of memoirs in shaping career aspirations and personal resilience.

• The Power of Community in Reading: The episode emphasizes the importance of book clubs and shared reading experiences in fostering a connected literary community.

• Adapting Literature for the Screen: Discussions highlight the potential for adaptations to not only stay true to but also enhance the original literary works.

Conclusion

Episode 374 of The Stacks offers a rich exploration of pettiness, the impact of literature on personal and professional life, and the joys of shared reading experiences. With Kira O’Sullivan’s insights and anecdotes, listeners gain a deeper understanding of how everyday interactions and personal histories shape our relationship with books and storytelling.

Transcript

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Things hold value because of how much they matter to us.

[Tracy Thomas]

Right.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

And that's what it's all about, like, and so that I. That's been like a takeaway, I don't know, just when it comes to pettiness, but also when it comes to storytelling. Like, anything can have a tremendous amount of weight if you want to give it a tremendous amount of weight. And there's also all these studies now that will tell you, like, the importance of gossip. And, you know, I'm so vindicated, you know, like, the banal, interpersonal things that just, like, don't matter and what and why it matters to connect about them. And also the fact that it's a little bit of, like, a female quality.

[Tracy Thomas]

To, you know, to dwell.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

To dwell.

[Tracy Thomas]

Welcome to the Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host, Tracy Thomas, and today I am joined by Kira o' Sullivan. She's an actor, comedian, SNL writer, and one half of the dynamic duo behind the Petty Crimes podcast. Today, Kira and I talk about the ways being TV writer has impacted her ability to watch television, the common denominator she's discovered behind most acts of pettiness and the books that she loves, plus the thing that gave her hope that she could build a career in comedy. The Stacks Book Club pick for June is the Art Thief by Michael Finkel. Kira and I will be back on Wednesday, June 25th to discuss the book. Get your copy, read along and check back in for that episode. Quick reminder, everything we talk about on each episode of the Stacks can be found in the link in the show notes. If you love the Stacks and you want inside access to it, you've got two amazing options to support the work of the show, plus earn yourself some bonus Perks. Head to patreon.com thestacks to join our bookish community, the Stacks Pack, and check out my newsletter@tracy thomas.substack.com okay, now it's time for my conversation with Kira O' Sullivan. All right, everybody. I'm really excited today because I'm joined by someone who is fancy for a lot of reasons, but my personal favorite reason is because she likes petty things and has a whole podcast dedicated to pettiness. And I got to be on it. I don't know if it'll be out by the time you're hearing this, but you will hear it and I am.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

At my worst to it today. Okay. It's pretty amazing.

[Tracy Thomas]

Well, that voice you just heard, that's Kira o' Sullivan. She is a writer at snl. She's also one of the co hosts of the Petty CR podcast with her friend Griff. Kira, welcome to the stacks.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Thank you so much for having me, Tracy.

[Tracy Thomas]

I'm so excited. Before we get into pettiness, because that's probably where I'm gonna spend the entire hour by accident. Not really, but maybe can you just tell folks a little bit about yourself and like, just like a dabble into like your relationship to books.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Oh, of course. So let's see. I. I live in Manhattan, I write for television, and I write movies, and I am a lifelong reader. I think I'm especially keen on books because I moved around so much growing up. My dad worked in trucking and I went to a different school for 6th grade, 7th grade, 8th grade, and 9th grade. And then I became a boarding student for 10th grade. So, you know, those are, those are some years where you really should be having some friends. And, you know, sometimes you're not having friends and sometimes you're having books.

[Tracy Thomas]

That's like. That was one of the first questions I had for you because I heard you on the Sounds like a Cult podcast talking about boarding schools and I heard you talking about how you'd gone to all these different schools and I was like, oh, no wonder she's a reader. Her friends are Ramona Quimby. Like, she doesn't know real kids because every year she has to do the thing where the teacher is like, and now we have a new student. Exactly. Is that how you say it?

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Exactly. Because my name, I mean, my name is spelled C E A R A. It's Kira, but of course it looks like Sierra. And having this difficult to pronounce name is like. It's basically like a built in barometer for my own self worth because I can tell depending on the day. Like, sometimes the dental hygienist is calling me Sierra, sometimes a date is calling me Sierra. I mean, not anymore. I'm married now and my husband knows how to pronounce my name.

[Tracy Thomas]

He better.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

He better did the priest on our wedding day. He did not. And that was too bad. But it is what it is.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay. Okay. Are you one of those people that if someone says your name wrong, you let it slide? Or do you say it's pronounced Kira?

[Kira O' Sullivan]

If it's like a one off interaction and the person is just, you know, and they're just being polite, I'll just let it go. But if I'm gonna have repeat interactions, I've, I've tried to get good at saying, and my name is pronounced Kira.

[Tracy Thomas]

I feel like there's. I t. I've talked about this on the podcast before, but there's people whose names like Steven or Stefan or something like that, and they don't care. They're like, oh, either one. And I'm like, what do you mean, either one? Those are two different names.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Right.

[Tracy Thomas]

And it makes me crazy. Cause I'm like, you. I have a strong opinion about this. You should have a strong opinion about it because it's your literal name.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Yeah, that is. I. That is so surprising to me. But my pet peeve when it comes to my name is when someone says they'd like to call me Sierra as a nickname, I'm like, that. Saying my name wrong is not a nickname.

[Tracy Thomas]

That's confusing. Wait, so they'll. So they'll say, oh, Sierra. And then you'll say, oh, it's Kira. And they said, well, can I call you Sierra as a nickname?

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Yeah. Yeah. I'm thinking of, like, boys in high school, girls, girls in college. And I was like, no, no.

[Tracy Thomas]

That feels very. Okay. That feels very bad. That, to me, is a reason to become petty. If you weren't already like, I would be like, definitely.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Yeah, definitely. I think having a difficult pronounced name made me petty. I think moving all over the place and meeting so many interesting people made me petty. All of it. I think. I think real estate agents made me petty. I spent so much time with them, and I was like, I can't. I. One time in seventh grade, I was looking at this house. It was an a frame house. You know, one of those houses where it's all roof. There's no house.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes, yes.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

It was this brown. A frame house. And, you know, maybe it was kind of a vibe, but at the time, I was like, oh, my gosh. This brown. A frame house full of brown shag rug. And the real estate agent was trying so hard to sell my mom on this house. And I walked up to the real estate agent, and I said, this house is a crab shack. And ever since then, my family's been like, is it a crab shack? Kira?

[Tracy Thomas]

Wait. That's amazing. My mom works in real estate, so I also spend a lot of time with real estate agents, but because she would have to go to open houses every weekend to, like, network. I despise open houses. And my husband's always like, oh, let's go look at this house. I'm like, I'll never do it. You cannot.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

You can't make funny.

[Tracy Thomas]

I hate it. I hate filling out their little sheet, writing your little name on it. No, thanks. When you were moving around, was it regional or were you all over the country? Were you international? Where were you living?

[Kira O' Sullivan]

I was in New Jersey, I was in New York, I was in Michigan, I was in Ohio, I was back to Michigan, I was back to New York. Kind of just. Just random places, really.

[Tracy Thomas]

And for real. Were books your friends or did. Were you able to make friends? You're pretty outgoing, so I'm curious what that was like as a kid.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Yeah, books were for sure my friends. I am. I'm sort of your classic fantasy first YA reader turned adult reader of fiction and autobio. Autobiographies. That's really where I go. But yeah, like, you know, your Harry Potter, your Aragon, your City of Ember, your Hunger Games. It's like you're. I'm totally. You can now totally tell that I'm 32 years old because of this.

[Tracy Thomas]

Like I said, you're a little bit younger than me.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Like all those. Yeah, yeah, I loved. I would. And I would stay up all night long reading. And now the type of reader I am is that I. I now do audiobooks because my job is so. I'm so in the pages all day. And every Tuesday, I write with other. With coworkers, not by myself, but I Collaboratively write over 50 pages of sketch. And so I just am like. And then, you know, and then I'm poring over pages the rest of the week. So I think because of that, I've now become an audiobook girl.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

And I'm all about having a book in my ear and just stomping around New York City. Or sometimes I do this thing if I haven't gotten any steps in because I've had a really busy day at work. I. I will stomp around my apartment at night with a book in my ear, and my husband is like, please, honey, you are doing laps around our one bedroom. It is like, please stop doing this.

[Tracy Thomas]

That is so funny. I love book in my ear. I've never heard anyone say it like that, but I love that.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

I love having a book in my ear.

[Tracy Thomas]

That's so cute. Okay. I too love a book in my ear. I am in la, so it's a lot of car book type time, as opposed to like directly in my ear headphones time. But I'm a big, big lover of audiobooks. But I'm wondering then, as a writer, are. Has your taste in reading changed because of what you're writing? Like, can you read funny books? Or are you turned off by that because you're Writing funny stuff all the time.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

That is such a good question. I do find myself gravitating toward books that are dissimilar from the type of writing that I do. So for a while, I got on a Reese Witherspoon book club kick, and I was kind of just like, you know, just going, beachy, easy romance.

[Tracy Thomas]

Right.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

And then I'm sure, like, some of your listeners have had. Or maybe you've had this experience if you've read any of those. I got fatigued after a while because I was like, this is okay. I've. We've explored the themes. I'd love some new themes. Like, yeah, I. I'm not too critical of books that are humorous, but I am super critical of television because I write for tv.

[Tracy Thomas]

Got it.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

So I'm more so like, if I'm trying to watch something and it's. I'm like, I'm watching the edit, and I'm thinking, like, you used that take. You used that shot.

[Tracy Thomas]

Got it.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

You didn't think you needed to punch up for that line on set.

[Tracy Thomas]

Got it, Got it.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

So. And the. And I mean, this has nothing to do with books, but the way that ends up affecting me is that all I want to watch is reality tv.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh. Cause you don't know the, like, world of that as well.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Yeah, exactly. I don't know what it's like to be a producer on a reality TV show. And also, those lines of dialogue are, for the most part, not written. So I'm not judging the writing or the writer's choices. I'm just like, wow, look at you go. Lindsay Hubbard on Summer House.

[Tracy Thomas]

Well, that makes total sense. I feel like that's very relatable because, yes, sometimes now when I'm reading certain books, I will. I started to get annoyed with the editor. I'm like, who's your editor? You know, because I've read too many books. I know too much about what's possible, what choices can be made. And so oftentimes, I start to get really cranky about, or I get cranky about what the marketing copy says on the book versus what's inside the book. Like, stupid things that, you know, a regular person who's not reading as much as me isn't really paying attention to or thinking about. So it makes total sense that in the world of tv, you would be critical of things that a layperson would never notice.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Do you. Are you now familiar with the work of certain editors? And, you know, like, this is an amazing editor. Look at them go.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, I started Tracking editor. I have this intense reading spreadsheet and I, I track every book that I read. Like, you know, how many pages when it came out, all that. But I also started tracking editors recently. Yeah, there's now I have favorite editors for sure. Where I'm like, oh, this person edited it. I'll read it.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Wow, that makes so much sense to me because in television writing, we have a thing that we say which is that like, you know, a story is told in the edit and it's, you know, and at snl we really tell many stories. You learn so much about storytelling, but it's in such a truncated format. And when we, when I write a pre tape which is like, that's one of the, you know, that's like a lonely island or, you know, a Please don't destroy video or it's a digital short. Like, it's the ones that don't happen live on, you know, in the studio on Saturday and we film them on Friday. And then the editors edit all night long. And then you come in on Saturday morning to watch a first cut. And the first cut is always garbage. And you have to know how to take the. And they've done amazing work. It's actually insane that they managed to pull that off yada, yada, yada. But we all agree it's not, it's not making laugh out loud. It's not ready. And you make so many changes just in the edit to tell the story. And it has nothing to do with what was on the page and what was captured on camera. And, and so that I've never, I haven't given a lot of thought to editors of books. And now I'm going to, Yeah, I.

[Tracy Thomas]

I, I had not either. And then I kept, certain names kept popping up when I would read the acknowledgments of the books. Yeah. And that's when I was like, oh, and I think we did a book club book that had the same editor of a book that I sort of liked. But I felt like it fell apart at the end. And that's the same way that I felt about the book club book that we did. And then someone was like, oh, you know, those two books have the same editor. And that's when I was decided, I'm going to start tracking editors because I, it's crazy that like the same problems could pop up or the same successes could pop up.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

And I'm convinced that publishing should be marketing their editors in the same way that a Reese Witherspoon's book club because If I know that I like five books you've edited, when I find out what's coming next, I'm going to bump it up on my list because I know that I like the work that you do in the same way that you trust a Reese or an Oprah, and you know what those books are going to be. But editors are weird, and they don't want to be in front of the camera, and they don't want to be the star. And it's a different personality type. But I'm over here screaming at every publishing person I meet, telling them, please make your editors a star.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Well, I think you are really onto something, because the more people you can introduce to the audience in connection with the story, the better.

[Tracy Thomas]

Like, I agree.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

You know, like, when a TV series comes out and you know who the director is and you know who the star is, like, all those people are what make you excited. So, like, if you can find another person other than the author.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. Especially I think that would really help debut authors, too, because I don't know you. I don't know what to expect from you. I can read the marketing copy, but I might not be able to trust it. Right. Or it might not be telling me what I want to know. But if I know that Kira o' Sullivan was the editor, I'll like, oh, great. I know what to expect. I'm gonna check it out. I. I think you're right. The more people you can introduce, like, connected to the project, the better.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Yeah. In the same way that, like, you know, publishers have great reputations.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, that's.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Those are. Ultimately. Those are people connected to a project in the same way that, like, I know. I like a 24 and the people at a 24, and they have good taste.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, totally. I mean, I think that's why when you know who the showrunner is on a TV show, like, if someone says Shonda, like, okay, well, try it. She's got a good track record with me. It works for me. Or.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

And they didn't used to think people cared about showrunners, and now they've realized showrunners are stars.

[Tracy Thomas]

Now I feel.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Yes.

[Tracy Thomas]

I. Yeah, I remember growing up as a kid, I never. I didn't even know what a showrunner was, and now I feel like showrunner is such a phrase we taught Mike White, you know?

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Yeah, exactly.

[Tracy Thomas]

That's. Yes. Editors should be treated like showrunners. Some of them might have to stay behind the scenes. They're new. They don't know what they're doing. But your big Names, your stars, your in house, people who have been there for decades. Put them on some things let me know. This was edited by Kathy Belden, because then I'm in.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

They deserve credit to do. They're doing.

[Tracy Thomas]

They started. Some books have started putting, like, cast lists. Not cast lists, but the credits at the end with who worked on it. And I love those. I'm obsessed with those. I wish every publisher did it because I also think, you know this from writing in a TV space, that you don't do anything alone. And when it says written by this person, it sort of, you know, erases all the other people who worked on an episode, even if, you know, one person took the lead on it. And I just think it adds so much to know who had their hand in what.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Yes, 100%. Like in television writing, the person who created it, the. The like first listed author, they're the person who wrote it first, but then everybody else, like, oftentimes the best ideas came about because they ricocheted off of other ideas.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Like there was a bad idea on the page and someone pointed out, like, this is really bumpy. And then they had the idea for the better idea. So, like, it's. It's so. It's so collaborative. It's actually crazy.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. Okay, I want to shift a little bit to talk about petty crimes, because. Hello?

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay. I'm obsessed with a podcast. Can you just tell people what it is? Means you'll do a better job than me.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

So petty crimes, it's. It's a true crime comedy podcast where we only investigate basically, interpersonal drama.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

The show is episodic, so each week we have a new petty crime that's been submitted by a listener and. And we investigate and deliberate and decide who is guilty and, you know, to what sentencing, what sentencing they're owed. And I started the podcast because I, like I said, love reality television. And I was listening to some kind of, like, reality TV companion podcasts. Like, you know, those types of podcasts that are hosted by, like, a reality star.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

And I just found that all the stuff they were talking about, all the exciting drama was happening on the TV screen and there was nothing left to discuss in the podcast.

[Tracy Thomas]

Right.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

And I was thinking, like, I wish there was a podcast that had all of the drama, but in. In my ears.

[Tracy Thomas]

Right, right, right.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

And it's new and it's not, like, reductive. And so that was the impetus for the show. And Griff and I have been friends for over 10 years, and we love hosting it. Together. And you should check it out if you want to.

[Tracy Thomas]

It's so great. And you guys have such a great bond and relationship, and you're so funny. And I love that you two know each other so well, because things will come up and, you know, one of you will roll your eyes and another one will be like, I know you're rolling your eyes about this. It's like, almost like you guys are siblings, I feel.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Yes.

[Tracy Thomas]

Like, you definitely have big, like, sibling or high school friend, like, really throwback friend vibes.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

I'm curious if you, in doing the podcast, have discovered anything broadly about pettiness that surprised you or people's relationship to pettiness.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

I have, actually. So we've hosted the show for. It's been, I think, close to 150 episodes.

[Tracy Thomas]

So that's almost three years.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Yeah. Yeah. And maybe. And I guess more if you were to count the Patreon. And something I've noticed about all of our. About many of our submissions, like, a theme across them is that oftentimes people write about a situation, and there's one obvious point where someone could have said something and they chose not to.

[Tracy Thomas]

That was our entire episode.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Yes, it was.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Yeah. The episode that you have to check out that Tracy is on, I think we're gonna call it Champagne for My Real Friends. And it's all about these French girlies and not saying what needs to be said. Like.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

And so I guess I expect, like, what I like about the show is that it's like, it's all little things. It's nothing like, over the real crimes. Yeah, it's not real crimes.

[Tracy Thomas]

Like, one of the episodes you did with Be With Brandon Goodman I loved was about a vibrator and whether a couple was getting a divorce and whether the wife or the husband should have the vibrator. And then something happened with the Charger. And, I mean, it's not a crime. No, but it is. It is criminal.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Yeah. And, like, oftentimes, I think, like, okay, the amount of calories that you've burned just writing the submission and sending it in, you could have bought a new vibrator and this all would have been over with. But it's like, things hold value because of how much they matter to us.

[Tracy Thomas]

Right.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

And that's what it's all about. Like, and so that I. That's been, like, a takeaway. I don't know. Just when it comes to pettiness, but also when it comes to storytelling. Like, anything can have a tremendous amount of weight if you want to Give it a tremendous amount of weight. Like, I had this, this song that I wrote at snl that was a pre tape with Walton Goggins that I wrote for Jane Wickline, his new cast member, who I love. And it's just about a woman finding a single baby shoe on the ground and basically deciding that she needs to find the baby that owns this shoe and she will be its mother. And if the baby has a mom, then now it has two moms, and that's gonna be what it is. And like, it's just about like this observation being blown out of the water. And then. And then it turns out Walton Goggins is like a fully grown ass man with baby feet on the end of his legs. But like, I don't know, just the idea that, like, you can take really small things and give them great importance.

[Tracy Thomas]

I mean, I think that's what, that's what I love about pettiness. Personally, as an extremely petty person, I love a detail. I'm very detail oriented. And so I feel for me, pettiness is a place that I can really shine because I remember every tiny little thing. And I will make it the. The most high stakes thing. Huh? I love to. About something. I. My brother, My brother is not a dweller on things at all. But my best friend and my mom, they both will. Will do that with me. And like a year ago, I was having babysitter drama and my mom and my best friend were out of the country. So I call my brother and I'm like, brady, I have a story for you. And I go on for like 10 minutes and I'm like. And then I saw her in the blueberry aisle, and then, you know, the blueberries felt like, I'm giving him detail, like. And then she rolled her eyes at me. The right going on. I get to the end of my story, and I'm like, can you believe it? And he's like, no, I can't believe it. And I'm like. And then. And I go back to the beginning to do a second round through, because I'm one of those people.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Of course, of course.

[Tracy Thomas]

And he was like, you already told me this. Can I go? And I said, no, you cannot go. I said, are you hearing what I'm telling you? I'm doing round two now. But I like, to me that's the joy of pettiness is, yeah, you can spin something that is so small to be so big. And I think, you know, the real reason I do it, and probably a lot of people do it. Is because there's so much bad in the world and it's too much energy to dwell on real horrible things.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Yes.

[Tracy Thomas]

It's much more fun to dwell on the babies that are knocking over the blueberries at the grocery store.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Of course. And there's also all these studies now that will tell you, like, the importance of gossip. And, you know, I'm so vindicated. You know, like, the banal, interpersonal things that just, like, don't matter and why. And why it matters to connect about them. And also the fact that it's a little bit of, like, a female quality to, you know, to dwell.

[Tracy Thomas]

To dwell. Well, I think that's. I think, you know, the gossip part of it is funny because we're. I mean, we're around the same age, and when we were younger and all the celebrities and all the gossip magazines and. And that was like, the biggest media, but in real life, everyone would tell you, don't gossip. Don't gossip. Gossiping is rude, blah, blah, blah. Meanwhile, our biggest celebrity industry was all around gossip. And I think. I think about that so much. It's like I was trained to be a gossip because I was reading People magazine and watching, you know, TRL and doing all of this stuff that was just, like, commercial gossip. So, yeah, tell me I can't talk bad about someone behind their back in real life because this is what I've been primed to. To do.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Exactly, Exactly.

[Tracy Thomas]

Do you feel like there's a difference between being petty and being an actual, like, bad person, or are we all on the same spectrum and sometimes we just spiral out too far?

[Kira O' Sullivan]

I do think there's a difference between being petty and being an actual bad person. To me, pettiness at its core is the want to be. Right.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay. Yes.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

So I connect pettiness more with somebody who is a perfectionist or competitive, which.

[Tracy Thomas]

You'Re saying to me.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Yeah, like, you know what I mean? And detail oriented. And so I think somebody can be petty good or petty bad.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay, okay.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

But I do think if you are a good person, you know when to let things know.

[Tracy Thomas]

I think that's pretty bad.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

But that's like, one of the. The themes that we talk about on the podcast is every so often, you know, somebody will get. They'll get some great revenge and it'll be really poetic and appropriate for the wrong that was done to them. And we'll say, you know what? You win today. You are not guilty of a petty crime, even though what they have done is. Guilt is petty. Right, Got it. But other times, Somebody will exact some sort of petty revenge that does not fit what has been done to them.

[Tracy Thomas]

Right. Like they'll murder someone instead.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

All the. Every other episode.

[Tracy Thomas]

No.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Like, you know, one time. So there was an episode where somebody. Their neighbors, their upstairs neighbors in Brooklyn were always throwing parties. And then on the 4th of July, they went into the basement, they used the landlord's key, and they shut the person's person's power off.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay. Too far.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

And their AC couldn't work. And all the food in their fridge went bad. And the woman came down and said, like, can you help me? And they said, like, no, sorry, I can't. And we were like, you too far over. You overshot.

[Tracy Thomas]

You overshot. You could have like, yeah, maybe just cut the lights for a little bit or help or.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

But to be petty is like. I feel like it. You know, to me, the perfect petty person. They know what is an appropriate serving.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes. They have the correct dosage.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Yes.

[Tracy Thomas]

For the crime.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

I love this. Okay, we're gonna come off pettiness for now, but at the end of the month, you and I are doing the Art Thief by Michael Finkel for book club. And I, We. I let. So this is the first time I've ever let my Patreon audience vote for the book club pick. And I wasn't sure what they would pick. I picked for, you know, you had suggested Ali Wong. Like, I picked a mix of the things that we had gone back and forth about. And I was so excited they picked this book because I've heard that it's amazing, but also it has this true crime element, but it's not violent crime. We're talking about art. So I'm very excited for us to get to talk about that. That episode will drop on June 25th. So people listening. You have until then to listen or to read the book to listen. But I'm hoping we get some petty. I feel like an art thief's gotta have.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Definitely.

[Tracy Thomas]

I feel like that's the kind of person it sounds like could be petty.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

I'm so excited, too. I've heard such good things about this book.

[Tracy Thomas]

Me, too. Me too. And it's so short. It's teeny, tiny, perfect. Which at this day and age is really hard for me to do long books. So I'm very excited about it. We're going to take a quick break and then we'll be right back. Hello. Hello, party people. It is I, Tracy Thomas, your host, and I'm here to tell you about a really fun thing that I did. It's called the Nonfiction Reading guide. It's the second annual one. It is 30 books long. It is all unputdownable nonfiction that I love and it is yours. If you join the Stacks pack on Patreon and Slash or subscribe to my newsletter Tracy thomas.substack.com the guide is amazing, and when you subscribe to either or both of those places, you get access to it. But you also get access to bonus episodes. Now, if you want to have a little bit more of a bookish community, the Patreon is going to be the place for you. That's where we're doing our virtual book club meetups. That's where we're talking on the Discord. That's where we're talking about the Mega challenge. Go to patreon.com the stacks. Join us there if you're thinking, you know what? I really just want to read Tracy's thoughts. I want to know what's going on in the stacks, the book she's reading, the pop culture hot takes. You're going to be better served by going to Tracy thomas.substack.com and subscribing to the newsletter. And for those of you who are like, I can't do it right now, you could join the newsletter for free, but you won't get all of the perks. I'm just throwing that out there. Either way, by supporting the show, you're supporting me, a black woman run in? No, just whatever. Either way, I appreciate you and your support. Check out Patreon Check out Substack. Happy listening. Have you ever noticed that Purple Shop pay button and how easy it makes buying something online? Bet you didn't know that this purple button is the telltale sign that a store is powered by Shopify. Well, Shopify doesn't just make it easy to buy, it makes it incredibly easy to start a business. No matter your experience. There's a reason that Purple Shop pay button is so loved. Shopify powers 10% of all E commerce in the US whether you're a big brand or just getting started, they make it feel approachable from day one. You can pick a template that fits your vibe, skip the coding, and have your store up fast. Everything runs from one place. Inventory, payments, analytics, and even email marketing. And that Purple Shop pay button you've probably used as a customer. It's not just easy, it's the highest converting checkout on the Internet. Your customers already trust it. If you want to see less carts being abandoned, it's time for you to head over to Shopify Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.com the stack all lowercase go to shopify.com thestacks shopify.com thestacks find yourself looking for a new job or change in career? Monster.com is here to help. We are not only here to bring you job postings, but also AI interview prep and salary tools, expert career advice and top notch resume services. We've got everything you need to land your perfect job fit. Discover the magic of finding the ideal job with monster.com your future starts now. Visit monster.com today. Your next job opportunity is just a click away. Okay, we're back. I did not prep you for this. So this is, this is your big test. People write in and they ask for a book recommendation and this one is sort of hard. Sorry, but I think it's a good one. So here it goes. It's okay. It's from Gina and Gina says this year I unintentionally read a few non fiction books all set during the U.S. civil rights movement of the 1950s and 60s. I read the Autobiography of Malcolm X, Malcolm X by Manning Maribel March, the Graphic Memoir series, and Until I'm Free by Keisha Blaine about Fannie Lou Hamer. While I loved each of those titles on their own, I really loved seeing how they were all in conversation with one another and how together they gave me a richer overall picture of the civil rights movement and than if I had just read one title. So I'm writing to see if you have recommendations for another historical event, movement or period that I could read about through multiple perspectives and books. My mind automatically went to World War II Vietnam, but curious. If you have any other ideas, you don't have to offer me a full reading list. One or two titles to kick me off would be great. So first and foremost I'm going to start here. I'm going to give you time to think. If you need it. I'm going to vamp for a second. First and foremost. Gina, I just released my nonfiction reading guide in May and I did a whole section on World War II. It's five books all about World War II that you can deep dive on. So if you want that, if folks want to see that, you can get that by joining the Patreon patreon.com thestacks or subscribing to the substack Tracy Thomas Substack. So yes, that's my plug for the nonfiction reading guide. It's 30 nonfiction books and five of them are about World War II now, that being said, I came up with a topic that I thought would be fun to read into, and that is the war on terror. I feel like it's historical enough. There have been a lot of really good books that have come out about it. A few of the titles that I'm thinking of are the Looming Tower by Lawrence Wright. Which one? The Pulitzer friend of the pod, Garrett M. Graph's oral history of 911 called the only Plane in the Sky. There's a book called Reign of Terror by Spencer Ackerman. John Krakauer, my fave, his book Where Men Win Glory about Pat Tillman. So these are all sort of books related to 911 and it's fallout. So that's something that popped into my head. But Kira, do you have any topic moment period that you could recommend a book or two for?

[Kira O' Sullivan]

I do. I. I think there's like, there's a really. I. I mean, my last name's o' Sullivan, so who would I be if I didn't talk about, you know, Irish immigration with the United States? And I was an Irish studies minor in college and I, I have like a great love for Irish authors. And I'm thinking of Brooklyn by Colton Tobin, and I'm thinking of Angela's ashes by Frank McCourt. And I feel like there are just so many great autobiographical, semi autobiographical and fiction books about Irish immigrants establishing themselves in New York City, like 1920 to 1950. And just like the best books. Also randomly, I feel like fever 1773. But no, I think that's like a little young though for Kit. That's probably for. It's probably not for adults anyway, so that's what I'm thinking of.

[Tracy Thomas]

That's very good. I'm very impressed by you, Gina. Let us know if you read any of our picks. And for people who want to have a book recommendation, read on air, email. Ask the Stacks atthestacks podcast.com. okay, Kira, you're on the hot seat now. This is the Stacks questionnaire. Two books you love, one book you hate.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Ooh, okay, let's see. Dress your family in corduroy and denim. David Sedaris.

[Tracy Thomas]

That's a love.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

That's a love. Gosh, I know everybody's read it, but Devil in the White City, that's a love.

[Tracy Thomas]

I've never read it.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Have you not?

[Tracy Thomas]

I've read. Okay, that's the deal. I read his other stuff. I like him. I just, I met him. I fangirled over him. That's just one of the ones I never got to Come on. I think because my best girlfriend, who I like to gossip with, who was out of the country with my mom, not together, she read it when we were maybe in high school or in college, and it took her a really long time to get through it, and she was like, I mean, this book is supposed to be really good, but it's kind of boring. And I think that just stuck with me, even though we were like 16. But you know how someone says something like that and then you're just. You never forget it. And so I just never did it. But I know that I need to.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

You have to. You have to. You have to.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Yeah. No, I loved. I mean, I guess I probably haven't read in 10 years, but I just like when I'm. That's a book I recommend to people when they say they haven't read in a while. I recommend it to guys a lot.

[Tracy Thomas]

It's definitely a guy book. He's like a guy's author, for sure.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Yeah, he is. He's like Dan Brown adjacent, too.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, he's like nonfiction guy.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Yeah, yeah, totally. Okay. A book I hate. Let me think, let me think. You know what? I was all set on the Canterbury Tales.

[Tracy Thomas]

Whoa, you read that in school?

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Yes. And I was like, oh, my God, it's like reading the Bible. Like, it's in Middle English. I was like, this is so. It's. It's not even reading. It's. It's more like archaeology.

[Tracy Thomas]

I've. I don't think anyone's ever said the Canterbury Tales. I don't know that anybody who's ever been on this podcast has even read it, to be honest with you.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Well. Well, don't. Let me just. And if you see a copy, burn it. No, no.

[Tracy Thomas]

We're advocating for burning books around here now. That is. That's our new thing. Yeah, we are really into it. We hate books here. What kind of reader are you? Do you read a lot? Will you sit down and read, like, one book and then not read again for months? Are you a vacation only reader? Like, what's your reading sort of life look like?

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Once I start a book, I finish it pretty quickly.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

And I am a summer heavy reader.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay. Okay.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

So we are entering this season of the book.

[Tracy Thomas]

Got it. Okay.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

But of course, I'm your classic girl who's like, I love to read. And then if you really press me, have I read more than one book in the last month? I haven't.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay. Okay. That's regular. I think that's normal.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Do you know that it's regular.

[Tracy Thomas]

I'm regular, like, 46 of people I don't know. I saw this somewhere, so who knows what the actual true number is? Did not read a single book in 2023.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Jesus.

[Tracy Thomas]

Crazy, right? I don't know if it's people. It might be Americans. Let me not lump in other people from other places, because I bet they're reading. We're not reading, but not good for.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Your brains, y' all.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, it's. We need. We need to be reading. Can you read multiple books at once?

[Kira O' Sullivan]

No.

[Tracy Thomas]

No. Even if you're doing one, do you ever do, like, one audio one with your eyes, or will you do only one period?

[Kira O' Sullivan]

I actually. I'm a big New York public library gal.

[Tracy Thomas]

Got it.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Like, utilize your libraries.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

And I, when possible, will get the physical copy and the audio copy, and I will switch back and forth and I will listen on. I'm on the go, and I'll read when I'm home.

[Tracy Thomas]

I love. That's my. That's my preferred way of reading, is doing one book. What's your audiobook speed? Are you one? Do you go faster?

[Kira O' Sullivan]

I do go one. Do you go faster?

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, yeah, babe. I go way faster. Whoa. 1.5 is my bare minimum. That's where I start. Unless someone has an accent. If the audiobook reader has a British or Irish accent or something, then I have to slow it down because my brain can't do that fast. But otherwise I go up, usually 1.5. Somewhere between 1.5 and 1.8.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

You know, maybe I should bump it up, because sometimes I am a tiny bit under stimulated. And also, when I'm reviewing my own podcast, I review it on at least 1.5.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh. So I never do podcasts fast. I never don't even do my own podcast fast.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

I should review it a lot quicker.

[Tracy Thomas]

I should be doing my own podcast faster because. And then you're done. I know.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

It's time. Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

It's not even like I'm, like, trying to get the information. Wow, this is incredible. It never had occurred to me to do my own podcast, review you faster. But podcasts, I think people speak the regular speed audiobooks, they slow way down.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Oh, my God.

[Tracy Thomas]

To make sure you understand the story, you know? So for me, I'm like, I got it. We gotta go. We gotta go.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

What an astute observation. I'm going to write an SNL sketch about the way audiobook readers read.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, please do. There's a woman who. I actually love her when she's sped up, but when she's slow, she's too slow. But she did station 11. Her name is Kirsten Potter, I think, and she's fantastic. Like, I think she's a great audiobook narrator, but at one girl, we gotta. Kirsten, we gotta do it. We gotta do it. But she's. She's great. Please do an SNL sketch about this so that I can then tell everyone I know that I invented an SNL sketch. Because I will. It'll be everywhere. I'll be like, ask Kira. Kira knows. I. I know.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

They'll be able to point to this episode. Like, that's when Tracy made that observation.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, my God. It's going to be in my link to Bio. It's everywhere. What are you reading right now?

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Oh, right this second, I'm about to start the Art Thief.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

And. Okay, let me look and see what I have queued up.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. What do you have?

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Okay, so Griff, who I host Petty Crimes with, has been all about these sexy fairies.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh. Oh. He crowned me about this when I did the show.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Yeah. And I was like. I was thinking to myself, like, okay, wait, I loved Harry Potter. I loved Lord of the Rings. Am I totally missing out on something I'm absolutely gonna love? And I just told you, I get through books quickly. I'm on chapter 11, and I am. I don't know if I'm gonna finish it.

[Tracy Thomas]

I feel like fairies fucking is a little bit different than, like, Katniss Everdeen. Do you know what I mean?

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

I just reread the first three books in the Hunger Game series. Even better than I remember. Wow. They're incredible. I gotta read books four and five. I've never read either. I've never read. Four and five just came out, but I'm so excited about it. I went back. I. I'm now Suzanne Collins biggest fan.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Love those books. I should do the same thing. I forgot that five just came out. That's so crazy.

[Tracy Thomas]

Five came out and it got like, a rave in the New York Times. They're saying it's, like, their list of best books so far this year. It's on there. Which I'm shocked about. Not because I don't think it's good, but because the New York Times usually doesn't take, like, YA genre fiction super seriously. Okay. How do you decide what to read next if Griff doesn't tell you to read Fairy Smut?

[Kira O' Sullivan]

I am big on personal recommendations, so.

[Tracy Thomas]

And we're your trusted sources.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

My dad is a really big reader, but he's He's a better reader than I am, so sometimes he'll recommend something to me and I'll find it to be a little dry. Like he really recommended Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell. Did you ever read that?

[Tracy Thomas]

No.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

And I, I was like, this is a little dry. My sister, I will say I think she's, she's reliable and my aunt Jean is really reliable.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay. And they're. And what are they recommending to you? What are the last great books either of them recommended to you?

[Kira O' Sullivan]

My sister recommended Maid.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

And I loved it. Wait, I. I sometimes do this wrong because there's one that's made and there's one that's the maid, and I've read them both.

[Tracy Thomas]

But Made is the non fiction and the maid is the fiction.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Yes, I want to be recommending the maid.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

I just, I loved it. It was a little different. Like if you're looking for something like that kind of like, I don't know, to kind of break up what you're listening to, I think the maid is a good one. The protagonist is autistic and she basically, she's a maid at a hotel and she becomes wrapped up in this event and she's not able to pick up on social cues or advocate for herself in the way that she needs to. And so there's this really great, you know, dramatic irony and it's, that's, I would say like the big, the big device at play there. But the point of view is really interesting and. Yeah, I liked that.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. What about Aunt Jean?

[Kira O' Sullivan]

She has a book club that is thriving in Columbus, Ohio. And so she's reading. She's shout out to Aunt Jean in her book club. She's reading whatever the gals are reading. Sometimes they're reading a classic, sometimes they're reading something that's not that good. It kind of depends. I would say her personal taste is like, I think she read, you know, where the Crawdads Sing and loved it.

[Tracy Thomas]

But what's something she recommended to you that you loved? Can you think of any?

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Not a book.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

But the biggest recommendation my Aunt Jean ever made to me that was so impactful was it's book adjacent.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Is the six part BBC Pride and Prejudice. Oh, have you seen that?

[Tracy Thomas]

No. You know, I'm not a Pride and Prejudice girl.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Oh.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, it's not for me. I read it. I just do.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Do you like Jane Austen?

[Tracy Thomas]

No. No, I don't. I really love nonfiction, so nonfiction is really my bread and butter. And when I have to go back and do the classics. That. That is not for me. However, she wrote Emma. Right?

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Huh.

[Tracy Thomas]

And I think I want to try Emma. Emma sounds like it is the one that I am most likely to like because I really like a villain character or like, I like an unlikable woman. Those are my favorite kinds of novels. And I think Pride and Prejudice was just a little too.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

Earnest for me. I needed one of the sisters to be behind the back or something, you know, Like, I needed a little more drama.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Yeah. Have you read Lolita?

[Tracy Thomas]

We did that for book club this year.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Oh, okay. What did you think?

[Tracy Thomas]

Well, I mean, it's pretty unsettling, that's for sure. And it's definitely unlikable. Narrator. I really appreciated it. It's ick. It's icky. Like, it's an uncomfortable read. But I liked it. I thought it was a little slow. Nabokov's love of language was a. A little much for me personally. As I mentioned, I like to go a little faster with my reading, and that was definitely a slowdown one. I thought it was a great book club pick, though.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Yeah. I. Do you, like, are you an imaginative person? Do you feel like, are you more of, like a concrete person?

[Tracy Thomas]

Ooh, I think in some ways I think I would say I'm more of a concrete person, though. I am creative. I'm generative. So, like, I come up with a lot of ideas, but I'm not imaginative per se. But I'm not totally rigid. I, I'm. I have an artist's background, right. Like, I used to dance and I used to act, and so I'm. I, I can imagine, but I am pretty concrete.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

I, I am, on the other hand, like, very imaginative. And so I will. I don't mind a book that forces me to, like, extend my disbelief really, really far and has something like. Like a play that I really love is the Santaland Diaries.

[Tracy Thomas]

I don't know.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

It's. And it's. It's a great read too, especially, like, around the holidays. And it's. It's a one man show about somebody who is an elf at Gimbels.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

And there are so many times in the play, whether you're reading it or watching it, where you have to extend your disbelief as the audience. And I've heard people say, like, this part to me made no sense when he inhabited this other character. And I was like, I have no problem with it.

[Tracy Thomas]

I, I can, I can suspend my disbelief if you can justify it, but if I feel like you've made a mistake, that to Me is like, I. I've said this for. But there was a book I read, and the. It was fiction, and I was with it, and then the author was like. And then on 9 and then on Monday, September 11, and I was like, no, it was actually a Tuesday. You know, like, so, like, that kind of thing, like a mistake. Mistake will make me hate your book forever. But I can go with you. Like, if the rules of the world are that we're inhabiting other people's bodies, like, let's inhabit. I'm. I can do it.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Cool.

[Tracy Thomas]

So I'm sort of in between, I think.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Oh, I thought of another book I hate.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, yeah? Which one? The Uglies. I don't know that. What is it? Why do you hate it?

[Kira O' Sullivan]

It's. I think they, like, just made it into a TV show. I didn't watch it either. I don't know. It was just one of those dumb books that everyone was reading in middle school, and it was about like, you're ugly, then one day you get to become pretty. And I was like, shut up.

[Tracy Thomas]

That's the worst. That sounds. That sounds bad. Okay. You said you're a library girly. Do you also frequent any independent bookstores? Do you have any favorite bookstores?

[Kira O' Sullivan]

I definitely do. I live on the Upper west side. Not. Not afraid for you to know my neighborhood. It's a pretty big neighborhood. And I love the Strand.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, yeah.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Which is right around the corner from me. There's also this really great used bookshop near me. I forgot what it's called, but. And. But I. I love, like. I love walk. I love. This is actually really a really bad habit, but I love, like, going to different branches of NYPL that are not near me. And, like, I like picking up a book from one place and returning it somewhere else and picking up a book over there, and I just. It's such a luxury. We're so lucky.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. I. I'm in la and we have a very large and thriving library. And so sometimes I'll take my kids to a different library near a park. We're going to try so that we can get, like, different books from a different. I love it. I love it. I love. What's the last book that made you laugh?

[Kira O' Sullivan]

The last book I read that made me really laugh and really cry was Molly Shannon's memoir.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay. She had a very rough childhood. I had no idea till that book came out. I didn't read the book. My husband listened to an interview and got the highlights.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

I mean, sincerely, like, it's called Hello, Molly. And she really. I mean, she had a traumatizing upbringing. Like, was in a car accident that killed most of her immediate family. And she is unbelievably resilient. I've now had, like, the pleasure of meeting and working with her multiple times, and she could not be, like, a brighter light. It also was. I. You probably have had this experience because you host a literary podcast. I had not. Until very recently, I hadn't had the experience of reading an autobiography. Autobiography. And then meeting the person in real life and. And being like, this is interesting.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, no, for sure. I feel like that a lot. One of the things that I try to do when I'm interviewing an author is to make sure that I read the book before I ever meet or speak to them. Because sometimes meeting a person can really color what I think about the work.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Both good and bad.

[Tracy Thomas]

And I pride myself on having, like, giving my honest opinion about things. But I am Leo, and I like attention. So if someone is nice to me, I'm going to be like, their book is amazing. So I really try not to meet people till after I've read the book.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

It's hard not to. We all want to be liked.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. So people. But I feel like people know this about me now, and so they've started, like, being extra nice to me. Don't stop. I'm not going to read your book now. But it is interesting. I do remember the first few times I spoke to someone, because it's also like, I know too much about you.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Yeah, of course.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes. It's like, I know too much about you. And I. I have also had some friends write memoirs, and that's been really interesting because there'll be things in the book that I didn't know about their life, just, like, maybe from their childhood or, like, personal stories. You know, you have friends, and there's certain things that just never come up, or their thoughts and feelings about an event or something that I remember happening, but I didn't know that that's how they felt about it. You know, just that that is really interesting.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

My mom had a very similar experience with that where a close friend who's a very big author wrote a memoir, and my mom feel. Just had a much different memory of some of the things that happened, and she. She's really struggled with it.

[Tracy Thomas]

That's interesting.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Yeah. I don't know. And it's. It's hard to say, but it. But I think it makes you realize in any memoir you're reading, like, it's. It's that person's version.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. I think people sometimes get confused about the difference between, like, a memoir and an autobiography or a memoir and nonfiction, and memoir really lives in between those things. It is not fact checked. There is no objective in a memoir. It is based on memories. It is based on your own creative interpretation of events. And I think sometimes people get mad when not. Not people who know the person, but just in general. People like, oh, I don't believe that. It's like, well, that's not really. I'm telling you my version of events in the way that I want to tell you my version of events. And that is just the bargain you make when you read a memoir, which I think.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

I'm so glad you said that. I feel like I've been mentally conflating autobiography and memoir.

[Tracy Thomas]

They're. They're so similar. Autobiography. I mean, so here's like, the technical difference, if you care. Memoir is based in memory. It's usually supposed to be about one event or topic. It's not the whole life. Autobiography is usually the whole life. It's supposed to be based in fact, though, again, that can be subjective, but it also usually has a political or philosophical or some sort of message it's trying to get across to you, some sort of philosophy of the author. And I don't know if I said this, but it's supposed to span the whole life. I think with celebrity memoirs now, they sort of are autobiographical in the sense that they span a longer period of time.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Because people want to know.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, because people want to know your whole life story and you're a celebrity. But. But it used to be that, like, memoir, you know, a memoir should be like, that time I was a writer at snl, not Kira o' Sullivan's life story that culminates with her writing at snl. Not. I mean, hopefully that's not totally.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Totally.

[Tracy Thomas]

But, you know, so. So those things kind of conflate. But, yes, memoir is. Is a little more creative writing and is based in memory and feeling. And so that's why in a memoir, you'll get someone being like. And then when I was 2, I said to my mom, I'm like, bitch, you didn't say shit when you were two to your mom and you don't remember it, so. How dare you.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

You know, I should actually tell this. I'm gonna FaceTime my mom after we are done talking, and I'm gonna tell her, this is about memoir, and I hope that maybe it will free her. Yeah, I hope it will.

[Tracy Thomas]

Wait, I have to ask you this because you said that you love Irish literature.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

Have you read say Nothing about Northern Ireland?

[Kira O' Sullivan]

No, I haven't.

[Tracy Thomas]

You gotta read it.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Need to. Okay, okay, okay.

[Tracy Thomas]

He's not Irish from Ireland. Patrick Radden Keefe. I think he's, like, loosely Irish. I think he mentions at the end of the book, he's like, I'm kind of Irish, Patrick. You know, go with it. But it's about the troubles in Northern Ireland, and it is so good. And then they just made the TV show about it. That is also incredible. I know that's not exactly Ireland. Obviously, there's some tension there. I read the book, heard about it, but it's so good. And Patrick Raden Keefe is my boyfriend. I've let him know that many times, but he's. He's sort of Eric Larceny, but.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Oh, okay.

[Tracy Thomas]

But more John Krocauer.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Oh, great.

[Tracy Thomas]

I would say he's more in the. I feel like Eric Larson is a little drier. Patrick is kind of give. He's. There's stuff to sink your teeth into.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Oh, cool. Well, I already like Eric Larson, so.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay. And if you do the audiobook, it's. It's narrated by someone with an Irish accent, which I did have to slow down. I think I was about 1.2 for that one. But the Irish accent is very, very good. Patrick Raden keep also wrote the story of the Sackler family, and Empire of Pain was what it was called. And he's really just good at that. Like, investigative journalism, like, fucked up shit guy kind of guy.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

That's.

[Tracy Thomas]

That's your jam. Yeah. I forgot to ask you this. When I asked you about reading in general. What is your ideal reading setup, location, time of day, snack, or beverage?

[Kira O' Sullivan]

I love to read any time of day, but I would say, like, I want to be on my couch in the afternoon with a cup of tea and a blanket on me and a pile of cats.

[Tracy Thomas]

That was a surprise. What kind of tea are you drinking and how do you take it?

[Kira O' Sullivan]

I take an Earl Gray with milk and honey.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay. I love this.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

My. My tea is for pleasure, not for service.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

And.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, my God, I'm stealing that. I am a. I'm a milk and sugar tea drink. And sometimes people be like, that tea is very light. I'm like, yeah, because I like. I actually put half and half in my tea.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Oh, that's such. That's so good.

[Tracy Thomas]

It's really delicious.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

Are there any books that you would say have influenced your professional career?

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Definitely. I read Amy Poehler and Tina Fey's memoirs and love them both. And I'd be lying if I said they weren't. They didn't impact me and make me think that I could be a television writer and be a woman in comedy and write for Saturday Night Live, particularly Amy Poehler's. And I've met and worked closely with both of them now. Like, I worked with them on the SNL 50th in February and had the most amazing experience and learned so much from them. And Amy Poehler went to my college, and we were in the same improv group. And I don't. I'm not a Nepo baby. I'm the farthest thing from it. Like, my dad worked in trucking, and my mom was an aquatic director at a ymca. So, like, there were no ties to the industry, not even remotely. And Amy having gone to my college, because Amy went to my college, it made me think, like, oh, I am connected. There is this thread here.

[Tracy Thomas]

And what college?

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Boston College.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Yeah. And that was, like, enough for me, like, for a pretty long time. For a pretty embarrassingly long time, I was hanging my hat on the fact that Amy Poehler and I had gone to the same college and we were in the same improv group. That was like my. Somehow that was my claim to fame.

[Tracy Thomas]

I'm obsessed with that. I love that. I love that. Did you tell her that when you met her?

[Kira O' Sullivan]

I did. I told. I. I told her at. At an after party sometime. I was like, hi. And she goes, kira, I love your tiktoks. You are so. And she was like, you're doing so good at snl. You were so. She was such. So sweet to me. And I was like, we were in fleabag. We were both in my mother's fleabag. And she was like, no way. Your fleabag. And that's. It was. I basically, like, floated out of the after party. It was honestly one of the best moments of my life.

[Tracy Thomas]

I'm obsessed. Okay. Because you're a TV and film person, I would like to know if you have a favorite book to screen adaptation and do you have any adaptations you can think of that were better than the book?

[Kira O' Sullivan]

This is going to be controversial.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, my God, I can't wait. We love Controversy.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

I read Little Fires Everywhere, and then I watched Little Fibers Everywhere. I did enjoy it more on tv.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay. I didn't read it or see it, so I have no horse in this race.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Yeah, that's. That's gonna be. That's one. I don't. And, you know, sometimes it's it's all when something hits you, you know. Yeah, no, like, and I also love Kerry Washington. So it's like, you know, I love the actor. So that's one. Let's see. I know Legally Blonde is a book that I haven't read. And then it's a movie that I love.

[Tracy Thomas]

A movie that I love.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

And then it's. And then it's a musical that I love even more.

[Tracy Thomas]

The musical is so good. Wait, I'm so excited that you said that. I saw it like four times on Broadway because it came out when I was in college in New York.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Oh, it's so good. And you can find the MTV Bootleg hosted by Lauren Conrad on YouTube if you want to see it. And it's, it's. The whole thing is there and it's effing amazing. And now the prequel series is coming out on Amazon prime, which is all about Elle woods as a high schooler in 1995. And people are saying it's good.

[Tracy Thomas]

I hope so. Elle woods is one of the great characters. The hill I will die on is that Legally Blonde is what Barbie should have been. Oh, uh huh. Cause Barbie, the actual Barbie, didn't have enough going on. She wasn't likable. She wasn't fighting against anything. I feel like Elle woods is Barbie, just an actual plot and character. And I just.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Yeah, it was interesting the way they went with Barbie. She was so concerned with the fact that she was a Barbie. Yeah, but Barbie is not concerned that Barbie's a Barbie. Barbie is Barbie.

[Tracy Thomas]

Barbie is Barbie. And the whole, I mean, my, my rewrite would have been that when Barbie got to the outside world, she was concerned about all that was wrong in the world. And so then she like. Elle woods, like goes out and tries to fix things and like.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

Tries to like build a house for homeless people or like opens a restaurant for, you know, whatever. But that she.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Right.

[Tracy Thomas]

That we have Barbie, who is a Barbie in the world, dealing with the darkness of the world, but as Barbie. And it works out totally because that's.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Elle woods, you know, that I, I wonder, like I always now when I'm watching movies, I think about the conversations that are being had. You know, what are the studio notes? Like, what are, you know. And I felt like they were worried about it banging up against Elle woods. And I think they were also worried about it banging up against life size.

[Tracy Thomas]

I don't know what life size is.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

It's. It's kind of like Barbie. It's actually just like Barbie, but it stars Tyra Banks.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, yes, yes, yes, of course I do. I do know that movie.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

And she's kind of what you're describing, See, like she comes to life and she wants the world to be perfect and it's not.

[Tracy Thomas]

Well, I just think. I think, you know, to your point, I think they got a little too cute with it. They tried to do something and it's sort of like these archetypes and these kinds of stories exist and they work. If you can bring your own barbiness to it. It's. No one's gonna be like, oh, this is just like Legally Blonde. And also no one's like, I've had too much Legally Blonde. You know, that's true. Like, nobody's. We do a million Marvel movies and they're all the same and nobody cares. But it's like, oh, Barbie can't be too much like Elle Woods, a movie that came out 20 years ago.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

It's true. And. And also, like, I'm putting words nobody else's mouth, but I really. I would bet money that they were worried. I'm so glad that we have the same thoughts about Barbie.

[Tracy Thomas]

I am too, because that was an unpopular opinion I had at the time. And I was really. People were really unhappy with me when I was talking about Barbie. I feel like we've come around.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Yeah, broadly. She is a kicker. She did. Not much going on.

[Tracy Thomas]

She didn't. We both like writing. We know what was happening there. Okay, last, last, last question. I stole this from the New York Times by the book. If you could require the current president of the United States to read one book, what would it be?

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Wow, what a tremendous question.

[Tracy Thomas]

It's from the New York Times. Again, I can't take credit.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

I'm like thinking of that Dale Carnegie book that's like how to win friends and influence people.

[Tracy Thomas]

I feel like if he's read any books, that's the only one I know.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

But I'm trying to think of like the equivalent of that book that just like tells you, like, how to be. I'm trying to cheat. This question is basically what's happening. But let me really give it a. Let me give it a second of thought. Yeah, I don't know, like, like the Kite Runner. Like just something about somebody that has nothing the fuck to do with him. That great is really full of heart.

[Tracy Thomas]

I love it. I love the height. Runner, full of heart. That's a good way to describe it. Okay, I'll take it. That's. You pass the test. You know what?

[Kira O' Sullivan]

It would just be great if you read any single book?

[Tracy Thomas]

Any book?

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

I mean that is the bar on the floor, literally under the floor. Read at least as many books as my five year old children. Yeah, that would be great. Okay, everybody at home. Kira O' Sullivan, today's guest, will be back on Wednesday, June 25th to discuss the Art Thief with us. We will be spoiling the book. It's non fiction, but I feel like there's going to be spoilers about what happens with the art and the theory. So read along, come back and see us then. Kira, this has been a total joy. Thank you so much for being here.

[Kira O' Sullivan]

Thank you, Tracy. Thanks for having me. And I'm really excited to talk about the Art Thief.

[Tracy Thomas]

Me too. Everyone else, we will see you in the stacks. All right, y' all, that does it for us today. Thank you so much for listening and thank you again to Kira for joining the show. I'd also like to say a huge thank you to Amber Watson, Leslie Guam and Jackson Musker for making today's episode possible. Remember, our book club pick this month is the art piece by Michael Finkel, which we will Discuss on Wednesday, June 25th with Kira O' Sullivan. If you love the show and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/the stacks to join the Stacks back and check out my newsletter@tracy thomas.substack.com make sure you're subscribed to the Stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts. And if you're listening through Apple Podcasts or Spotify, please leave us a rating and a review. For more from the Stacks, follow us on social media at the Stacks Pod, on Instagram threads and TikTok, and check out our website@thestacks podcast.com this episode of the Stacks was edited by Christian Duenas with production assistance from Waikia Freelo. Our graphic designer is Robin McCrite and our theme music is from Tagirijis. The Stax is created and produced by me, Tracy Thomas.