Ep. 377 The Art Thief by Michael Finkel — The Stacks Book Club (Ceara O’Sullivan)

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Stacks – Ep. 377 “The Art Thief” by Michael Finkel

Host and Guest:

• Traci Thomas – Host of The Stacks
• Kira O’Sullivan – Comedian, TV writer, and host of the Petty Crimes Podcast

Episode Overview: In Episode 377 of The Stacks, Traci Thomas and returning guest Kira O’Sullivan delve into Michael Finkel's non-fiction work, The Art Thief: A True Story of Love, Crime, and a Dangerous Obsession. The episode explores the intricate tale of Stefan Brightweezer, a prolific art thief whose obsession leads him to steal art worth up to $2 billion over seven years across Europe.

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Introduction to "The Art Thief" ([02:08] – [07:57])

Traci introduces the book, outlining Stefan Brightweezer's background:

• Stefan Brightweezer: A former museum security guard turned art thief.
• Anne Katrine Klein Clouse: Stefan’s girlfriend and accomplice in his heists.
• Modus Operandi: Stefan meticulously plans his thefts, leveraging his insider knowledge from his time as a security guard.

Notable Quote:

"There are a whole bunch of spoilers in today's episode, but this non-fiction, so you can listen at your own risk."
— Traci Thomas [02:08]

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Initial Impressions and Story Dynamics ([10:25] – [22:17])

Kira O’Sullivan shares her perspectives on the narrative structure and character development:

• Tension in Non-Fiction: Unlike fiction, non-fiction presents challenges in maintaining suspense when the outcome is known from the outset.
• Character Arcs: Critique of Michael Finkel’s portrayal of Stefan, suggesting Stefan lacks a meaningful transformation, undermining the storytelling.

Key Discussion Points:

• Addiction to Stealing: Kira posits that Stefan's actions resemble an addiction, driven by the thrill rather than a noble cause.
• Author’s Credibility: Traci reveals Michael Finkel's controversial past, including his dismissal from The New York Times for fabricating a story, prompting reflections on the trustworthiness of his narration.

Notable Quotes:

"I have to say, I didn't feel like the storytelling was, like, particularly deft in this little abortion to domestic assault section."
— Kira O’Sullivan [30:31]

"I think Finkel sort of has his own, like, kink going on with this story that clouds what information."
— Traci Thomas [15:00]

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Ethical Considerations and Moral Implications ([50:18] – [69:37])

The conversation shifts to the moral dimensions of Stefan’s crimes:

• Ownership of Art: Stefan argues that art museums perpetuate colonial plundering of artifacts, suggesting his thefts are a form of restitution.
• Criminality vs. Obsession: Traci and Kira debate whether Stefan's actions are driven by a legitimate political stance or mere obsession with the thrill of stealing.

Key Points:

• Destruction of Art: Kira condemns Stefan’s mother for burning stolen artworks, viewing it as an extreme and petty punishment.
• Legal Outcomes: Discussion on the disparity in sentencing between Switzerland and the United States, highlighting societal obsession with incarceration over rehabilitation.

Notable Quotes:

"If you want to steal the art, you can steal it back. Do your thing. But I don't buy the argument from him."
— Traci Thomas [24:30]

"All of this art has been discovered in this canal in France. [...] all of the paintings have not been recovered."
— Traci Thomas [56:04]

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Character Analysis and Personal Reflections ([50:18] – [69:37])

Traci and Kira delve deeper into the psychological profiles of Stefan and Anne Katrine:

• Stefan Brightweezer’s Decline: From a meticulous planner to someone whose actions become increasingly reckless, indicating a loss of control over his compulsions.
• Anne Katrine's Role: Initially Stefan’s accomplice, she eventually distances herself, portraying a victim of Stefan’s abusive tendencies and possible Stockholm syndrome.

Personal Insights:

• Traci’s Struggle with Sympathy: While Traci grapples with empathizing with Anne Katrine, Kira offers a more compassionate view, seeing her as a wounded individual rather than a villain.

Notable Quotes:

"I could not buy that Stefan is stealing because he loves art so much. There's no way you're doing it just for art without deriving any pleasure from this process."
— Traci Thomas [15:00]

"Mom destroyed the paintings to punish him. That could be seen as her trying to protect him, but it's a drastic and irrational action."
— Traci Thomas [56:04]

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Conclusion and Final Thoughts ([69:37] – [77:19])

As the discussion wraps up, Traci and Kira contemplate the feasibility of adapting Stefan’s story into a visual medium:

• Casting Choices: They brainstorm potential actors to portray Stefan and Anne Katrine, considering the need for a character who embodies both charm and menace.

Final Reflections:

• Moral Complexity: The episode emphasizes the complexity of Stefan's character and the ethical dilemmas posed by his actions.
• Author’s Intent: While acknowledging Finkel’s flawed past, they differentiate between the author’s credibility and the inherent truths within the narrative.

Notable Quotes:

"I think it's probably. I don't think there's anything in this book that is untrue or, like, was a lie. I do think the way that we frame these kinds of men is part of this story."
— Traci Thomas [22:17]

"Have to imagine because, you know, from his point of view, we've learned about the abortion, and it was already sad..."
— Kira O’Sullivan [67:58]

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Key Takeaways:

• Complexity of True Crime Narratives: The episode highlights the challenges in portraying real-life criminals, especially when the author himself has a dubious background.
• Ethical Debate: Stefan Brightweezer’s justification of his thefts sparks a broader conversation on art ownership and the moral boundaries of restitution.
• Character Dynamics: The interplay between Stefan, Anne Katrine, and Stefan’s mother adds depth to the narrative, showcasing themes of obsession, abuse, and collateral damage.

Final Quote:

"I don't buy that that's why you're doing it. My guy, like, I know it's not."
— Traci Thomas [24:30]

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Upcoming Episode Announcement: Traci concludes by announcing the July Book Club pick, God Help the Child by Toni Morrison, set for discussion on July 30, emphasizing its exploration of how childhood suffering shapes adulthood.

Final Note: Listeners are encouraged to join The Stacks community on Patreon and subscribe to the newsletter for exclusive content and updates.

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This summary encapsulates the in-depth discussion between Traci Thomas and Kira O’Sullivan on The Art Thief, providing a comprehensive overview for those who haven't tuned into the episode.

Transcript

[Tracy Thomas]

Hi everybody, it's me, Tracy, here to tell you about a book that I think you're gonna love. It is called the Great Man. It's a novel by Keira Davis Lurie. It is a diverse retelling of the Great Gatsby, set among the black elite of post war Los Angeles, and is inspired by real life historic events. Pause for a moment. Does that not sound like me? Real life historic events, a retelling of a classic and set in Los Angeles. It follows Charlie Tramell, a young veteran, who is lured by his cousin Marguerite to the esteemed West Adams Heights, aka LA's newly rechristened Sugar Hill. There is black opulence, there is success, there is old money intertwined with white privilege. And Charlie finds himself drawn into this tantalizing world of possibilities where he meets James Reaper Mann. As Charlie navigates a landscape rife with ambition, betrayal and societal turmoil, he soon finds himself beside Reaper, facing a piv little decision that could end in tragedy. Hello. This is giving amazing. Coinciding with the 100th anniversary of the Great Gatsby, Davis Lurie's book masterfully reimagines the opulence and social dynamics of F. Scott Fitzgerald's classic novel within the real world backdrop of LA's Sugar Hill, offering a compelling exploration of wealth and class. The Great Man, a novel by Kira Davis Lurie, is available now wherever books are sold.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

I believe that art should return to its nation of origin. Of course I believe that and like all about retribution on all types of fronts, but that's not exactly what he's doing. He's taking art just to. To go to him. I. I think the message is not wrong, but I don't think that he believes that. Yes, I agree, as evidenced by the fact that at one point he was trying to minimize the effects of his crimes and saying, I think they were only worth 30 million. And then once he got to prison, he was like, yeah, some of that stuff I stole was worth 2 billion. I was like, no, you. You've undercut yourself, sir.

[Tracy Thomas]

You undercut yourself. Welcome to the Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host, Tracy Thomas, and it is the last Wednesday of the month, which means it is the Stack Book Club day. Today we are discussing the Art Thief, A True Story of Love, Crime and a Dangerous Obsession by Michael Finkel. We have brought back comedian, TV writer and host of the Petty Crimes Podcast, Kira o' Sullivan. In our chat today, we talk about the insane story of Stefan Bright Weezer and his Girlfriend Anne, Katrine Klein Clouse, and the up to $2 billion worth of art they stole in a seven year period across Europe. There are a whole bunch of spoilers in today's episode, but this non fiction, so you can listen at your own risk. A quick reminder, everything we talk about on each episode of the Stacks can be found in the link in the show notes. And if you like what you hear today, you should consider joining the Stacks pack, which is our online community on [e-mail] the stacks and checking out my newsletter unstacked@tracy thomas.substack.com both of these spaces give you perks, exclusive content, bonus episodes, plus you get to know that you are making this show possible every single week. All right, now it is time for my conversation with Kira o' Sullivan about the Art Thief by Michael Finkel. All right, everybody, it is book club day and we are discussing the Art Thief A True Story of Love, Crime and Dangerous Obsession by Michael Finkel. And we have brought back the wonderful podcaster, comedian, writer Kira o' Sullivan. Welcome back, Kira.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Hey, thanks for having me.

[Tracy Thomas]

I'm so excited you're here. I'm so excited to talk about this book. I have a lot of thoughts and opinions. Before we dive in, I just want to let people know we will be spoiling the book. So it's non fiction. You can probably Google a lot of this. But if you don't want to know what happens with Stefan Bright Viser or whatever, pause, read the book and come back. Let me give people a quick rundown. Basically, this book is the story of Stefan Bright Weiser. Bright Weezer. I'm gonna say Bright Weezer. I'm gonna go with Bright Weezer. That feels right. Who was a very prolific art thief in the 1990s and early 2000s. He stole potentially up to $2 billion worth of art.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Unbelievable.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, just was just. And it was, you know, it was just a casual, you know, silicone slice here, drop it into the pants there. And he just was racking it up. And then he eventually gets caught, as I'm sure you would imagine. If there's a book about him and then we get a little trial. Oh, and he does all of this with his girlfriend and Katrine Clink and Klaus Lincoln. Klaus. I don't know. These names are. It's a struggle. They're from Alsace, which is French and German. So that's why you're getting Anne Katrine Klinken. Klaus.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Yes.

[Tracy Thomas]

I'm already so chaotic for this one. Oh, it's not clinking Klaus. It's Klein Klaus and Katrine. Klein Klaus. Anyways, Kira, we always sort of start like this for book club generally. Just generally. What did you make of the book?

[Kira O'Sullivan]

I enjoyed. You know, I'm not somebody who reads a ton of non fiction. Okay. And I, I liked this story. I thought it was interesting. Like, you know, it's one of the things that like interests me with like the difference between like with a non fiction book is like, I kind of know exactly how this story is going to end from the beginning. Right. Like, you know, the fact that, as you've already said, the fact that it is a book and it is called the Art Thief. I already know that this person has been caught. Even if it's like posthumous. This person has been caught.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

It's an interesting task for the author to manage to like build tension and maintain intrigue. And you know, at a certain point I was like, I think I understand why this book is 220 pages long. Because that's all you get. Yeah, yeah. Even though like there were, you know, and there were really interesting twists and turns along the way to his personal story, like I really found in the last 50 pages a lot of things really interest me. Like after he goes to jail, when Anne Katerine is in the trial and she announces that she's pregnant with a 19 month old baby and he does the math and realizes that she got impregnated 10 months after he was first put in jail, I was like, okay, that's a good twist.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. Surprise.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

This is worth a book. And then the new girlfriend and like her different reaction as opposed also some last little tiny thought in my general thoughts category. Sorry, my vibe is chaotic too. I did think it was interesting what Finkel tried to, you know, he tried to like, because every character needs an arc, right? Like I write for television, I write for movies. Every character needs an arc. Even if it's like a tiny character in a movie. And their arc is that at first they don't drink milkshakes with a straw. And at the end they're like, you know what? Straws aren't so bad. Like it's an arc can be anything. And I feel like he tried to give this main character the tiniest arc when at the very, very end he is looking at a piece of art and then he just picks up a brochure. But I was like, I was like, I don't buy it. Everything you've told us about this man is that he has not changed one single bit. And this anecdote is flimsy. And no, he has not changed, so you might as well have excluded it.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay, so we're going to talk about Michael Finkel because I found out some interesting information about the author which we will get to. But I was pretty into this book. This book, to me feels like non fiction for people who don't love non fiction.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Okay.

[Tracy Thomas]

You are a novel person. This book has all the things that a fiction person would like. It's got wild characters, it's got twists and turns, it's got, you know, a little bit of history, a little bit of context, but mostly it's just sort of a plot driven little story. It's. We go here, we do that. And so I liked all of that.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Some good, like, world building in the first few characters.

[Tracy Thomas]

Totally.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

You know, you really ease your way in.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, yeah. And there's a lot of parts throughout the book where you're just like, excuse me, what? Which I think is always great if you're not, like, if you're not reading nonfiction to learn something, you really do need to have characters behaving in a way that is, if not badly, at least like, engaging.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Oh, yes.

[Tracy Thomas]

I felt overall this book was a. Was a pretty decent. Yes. For me. Like, I enjoyed it. I had a lovely time. It is a perfect summer read. Quick, fast. I do have some questions about the writing itself. I have some questions about what Michael Finkel chose to tell us and when he employed this thing that some writers do where he talks about something that's happened, like, we already know. And then he's like, oh, by the way, they were a dog. And you're like, oh, well, okay, that now makes sense. And so I feel like because. And that's partially because we only really get Stefan's perspective, which we can get to. But yeah, but I do really, really.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Short on Anne Katrin's perspective.

[Tracy Thomas]

And the mother.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

And the mother.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. And that, I think is a challenge for any author. But I also think that is some. I think that's doing some other work for. For Stefan. The other thing I would say about this book, my other big, like, top level takeaway, is that this book is really a reminder, ladies and gentlemen, that we all have our skills and talents and that once you find your skill and talent, you should really hold on to that. Like, some of us might be really good podcasters, some of us might be great drawers, and some of us might be world class art thieves by accident. So.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

And this book, I would. That reminded me of myself because isn't it a truth that, like, we all love to do things we're good at and we don't like to do things that we're bad at. And this man is like, I love stealing and I hate listening to my girlfriend. And that is what I'm going to do. And I'm like, I respect.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, it's like, we find your niche, you know, like, if he was an influencer, they would be like, find your niche.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

He post about that.

[Tracy Thomas]

You know, post a reel about it. Post a story, a carousel, a YouTube video. Just find your. He's like Renaissance art theft. Trinkets. Yes. Paintings, sure, why not?

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Fleming tapestry. Yeah. It actually that. Okay, not to veer off, but that was a part that really interested me about him is when he seemed to slightly lose his taste.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay, we're gonna get to that because that. I think that is a crucial piece of this story for me. There were a lot of little things in this book that I was like, Michael Finkel, you need to write an entire book about this. One moment. Okay, so just quickly to do a little bit of recapping. Basically, we meet Stefan. He is the child in a loving family. His parents are wealthy. Then they get a divorce. The dad takes all the money, leaves the mother destitute. It's Stefan and his mother. The dad is off with a whole new family. This is the villain origin story. We get Stefan meets he. He's content with his life of just looking at art and being alone. Until he meets Anne Katrine and they fall in love. And then they steal a piece of art together. And it's hot. They're into it. And Stefan tells us through Michael Finkel, because Michael Finkel is the only American journalist he's ever sat down with that he loved. He loves art so much, he doesn't get any joy from stealing. He is just overcome by the aesthetics of it all. Stendhal syndrome, we later find out, is what it's called when you're overcome physically, emotionally by seeing beautiful art. Very rare. But of course, Stefan has it and he just. He has to steal. Do we buy this at all? Do we buy that Stefan is stealing because he loves art so much?

[Kira O'Sullivan]

I certainly believe that he loves art a lot because he knows a ton about art, you know, and even in, like, the author's notes at the end, we learn that when he's in Finkel's hotel room, he identifies like, you know, a 20th century artist who typically works in Kinect sculptures and happen to just draw this one pic. Like, he really knows his stuff.

[Tracy Thomas]

And, you know. Yeah. In his trial, he like tells the art historian. He's like, well, actually, it wasn't. It's not. It's not. Some of. It's not real. And she's like, how did you know that? And he's like, well, you know, I did a little research. And she's like, you know, I always had my suspicions. Thanks so much.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

I do believe that he really, really loves art. But can I say I was thinking about him, because I'm like, okay, but, you know, a lot of people love art and the. Here's what they typically do. I think there wasn't enough time spent on. I think what he had is closer to being a hoarder. This is okay because he's truly like, he's hermit crabbing, you know, the way he is, like, building this treasure trove, I think it has a more to do with the attic and the filling of the attic with precious items and.

[Tracy Thomas]

This being the only space he has anymore, right?

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Yes.

[Tracy Thomas]

He loses his home. Then his mom finally gets them this house. He gets his space.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Yes.

[Tracy Thomas]

And the first or one of the first things he steals is this gun that his dad had. This thing that he wanted because his dad had it. I agree. He likes art. Sure. Stefan loves art. The idea that he was not getting joy out of the stealing or that he didn't derive any pleasure from this process is such a fucking lie. Because throughout the book we hear about him. You know, he starts. Starts to like, call the police on himself. Yes. After he's left a location or he leaves these frames around, he's like, you know, it's sort of my calling card.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

If you're not getting off on this, you're not doing that. You're not. If. If the whole thing is just. I want these pieces so badly. I love them so badly. There's no way you're fucking around like that, dicking around, marking the back of the paintings with your. Your name and your girlfriend's name. You're not doing it. But I even go further because the whole thing is, we're supposed to believe is that he just like, doesn't prepare and he doesn't plan and he just walks in and he steals whatever speaks to him. I don't even buy that. No. He worked as a museum security guard, you guys. What are you telling me? You're telling me those two things are just totally unrelated? He was a case in the joints. He's. He's taking the brochures, he's studying the museums. He's not Just looking at the art. He's looking at what the art is encased in. He is planning these heists. And I think that Michael Finkel sort of has his own, like, kink going on with this story that. That clouds what information. Like, he does not do a rigorous journalist job. I don't think. Like, I think he wanted to tell this story. Do you know what I mean?

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Well, do you think, like, when a journalist builds a rapport with somebody slowly over time and they've earned their trust, do you think he feels, like, indebted to. To him in some way or he feels obligated to portray him in a pot? You know what I mean? Like, it must be hard to, like, spend so much time with somebody and then turn around, back around and be like, and here's the truth, honey. Like, I don't know.

[Tracy Thomas]

So, yes, I think that this can happen. However, let me. Okay, let me. Let me reveal my information I have about Michael Finkel because I think this is. I think this is important. In 2002, Michael Finkel was a reporter at the New York Times. He was fired from the New York Times because a story he wrote about African children being sold into slavery was found to be fabricated. He wrote a story about one kid, but it was actually allegedly a composite character. So he had taken other people, and there actually had not been enough research to prove that there were children being sold into slavery in this way. So he gets fired from the New York Times. He basically is, you know, a. Just becomes a disgraced journalist. He then finds out, I think in 2005 or soon thereafter, I think he writes the book in 2005, that a man who was suspected of killing his wife and children, I think his name is Christian Longo, when he was on the run in Mexico City, was using the name Michael Finkel as his alias. So Michael Finkel goes to this man in prison, he starts a rapport with him, and ends up writing this memoir to. That rebounds him into being no longer a disgraced journalist. Wow. And the book gets turned into a movie with Jonah Hill and not Adam Driver, but the other one that looks like that. Who am I thinking of? It's called True Story. Oh, James Franco, I think.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Oh, okay.

[Tracy Thomas]

I think they're sort of a similar look. Yes.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

This movie sounds like a bit of a B side, but apparently it's. They made a movie.

[Tracy Thomas]

Apparently it's not good. Yes, it's James Franco and Jonah Hill. So this book, now the Art Thief, comes on the heels of these two things. One is a redemption arc for a criminal. And two, is a disgraced person getting a second chance. So this makes me have thoughts and feelings about the agenda of Michael Finkel, because can we trust him? I don't know. Maybe. You know, I don't believe once a liar, always a liar. But also, we're all liars, Right? Like, if you're a journalist, you want to tell the best possible story you can. I think also he is attracted to people who have been discarded by culture. Right. Like, of course he is. And I think, my guess, he doesn't talk about how he does it, but my guess is that the way that he gets Stefan to talk to him is to be like, I know what it's like. Like, I've been there. And he endears himself to him in some way, which is a book that I would also love to read. Like, how do you go into this being like, yes, I was once. If you Google me. Because if you Google Michael Finkel, it's like, career. In 2002, this thing happened and then everything unfolds. So all of that being said, I come back to your question of, do you think a journalist sometimes goes into these situations and doesn't want to, like, shit on someone that they spend all this time with? I think, yes, that happened. But I generally think that journalists who write these kinds of books go in and tell their subject. You don't have any control over this. I'm going to write what I want to write. I'm going to find what I want to find and I don't know, and.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Tell me what I need to know. Tell me your story.

[Tracy Thomas]

Tell me your story, and I'm going to do my due diligence and I'm going to write the story I want to write. And I don't. And I'm sure that's what Finkel said. But I also think that Finkel wants to tell a good story, but it.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Also makes sense now that he's like, this is now a little bit his ethos as a writer is he's like, I tell a redemptive story about somebody you might consider to be an irredeemable person. And I find what is sympathetic about this person, that that makes sense to me.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. And so. And I. So I googled him, like, when we picked the book, just to be like, let me just make sure this guy is a monster. Sure. And I was like, I think this is an. Okay. I don't know. I think being a journalist who lies is pretty despicable. I think it's less. I think it Happens more often than we think. I think journalists fabricate these things a lot. So to me, it didn't feel like an offense that I. That is not worth discussing. But I do think it's a really interesting part of this. Like, I couldn't then read the book without sort of having this in my mind. So for those of you who read it and didn't know this information going in, I'm, you know, I'm sure it probably changes a little bit. But for those of you who read this book, knowing this, I'm sure it also tainted how you read it. If you're anything like me.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Although, also, like, I think you're right. Like, you know, corner cutting happens in every industry. Journalists are not immune to that. Particularly, like now, you would get caught and, you know, you'd get caught. But like, journalists, like, in the, you know, in the 90s and earlier, it's happening all the time. Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

Someone won a Pulitzer Prize.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Oh, yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

And then they had to revoke it because nobody did the due diligence to find out if it was all a lie.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

No worries.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

But maybe also, I mean, he was. Seems like he was really, like, lambasted. It might have been something that he learned from. So maybe you can really trust this story. I don't know. Two ways to look.

[Tracy Thomas]

I agree. I think I. I think that's right. I think it's probably. I. I don't think there's anything in this book that is untrue or, like, was a lie. I do think the way that we frame these kinds of men is part of this story. It's part of Michael Finkel's story and. And part of Stefan Bright visor story as well. Okay, so. So now we all have the same information. That's the only, like, really shocking thing that I found out in my research.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Exciting.

[Tracy Thomas]

I felt like a real journalist. My God. And all of that you can find on Wikipedia. Ladies and gentlemen, could you believe I also. I also listened to some things on npr. I did. I did a little bit of research. I didn't go full. I didn't go full Michael Finkel here. I just did a little Halfies. Okay. So where were we? Oh, we were talking about, do we believe that this guy is, you know, this.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Yeah. Like, what's going on here?

[Tracy Thomas]

Casual. Just thief. I just. I cannot. I cannot. I cannot buy it. But one of the arguments that Stefan makes that I would like to talk to you about is that this is conversation of who owns art. The story of art is stealing is something that Stefan Says he talks about how, you know, the colonizers they plunder. We know this to be true. We know that museums are filled with art and. And artifacts from all over the world that do not belong to the nations and people that they belong to. So what is your feeling about the actual criminality of Stefan's crimes?

[Kira O'Sullivan]

So my feeling is. And something like, I think that, like, I hold dear in my own life is. Is based on this children's book that was read to me when I was a kid called what if Everybody Did? And, you know, it just kind of lets, you know, like, hey, the reason we don't throw trash out the backseat window when we're in a car is because what if everybody did? Like, here's what the world would look like. And, you know, there's sort of like this t. Classic code of ethics, and there's, you know, laws that stop us all from doing the things that. Like, wouldn't it be nice to go to a museum and take something and then put it on your wall at home? Sure, it would be awesome. And we could all do it, and then there would be no museums at all.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. So I. Intellectually, I. I think I fall more on the side of Stefan here. Like, to me, I'm like, okay, like, if you want to steal the art, you can steal it back. Do your thing. But I don't buy the argument from him.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

I don't think that's why.

[Tracy Thomas]

I just don't think that he has the radical politics to be a person who is doing this for a political sort of. You know, he's not. He's not doing this because he really wants to stick it to the art world and say, you all stole this from Egypt, so I'm stealing it back. He's also not stealing artifacts that are from other places. He's. It's not only things that are, like, Flemish. Yeah. It's like the Flemish things he wants. And so while his argument to me is like a sound argument. Right. Like, I agree, maybe we shouldn't be stealing other people's artifacts, locking them in a building, and then charging people to come see these things. Right? Like, I understand that maybe art should be accessible to people, especially art you stole. That being said, I don't think Stefan is necessarily the messenger on this one. I don't think you're stealing it as a Robin Hood situation because not only are you then locking it up in your house, you're locking it up and you're not even letting your mom see it. Only you and Anne Katrine can see it. Like, that's not, that's not bringing art back to the people.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Well also like, I believe that art should return to its nation of origin. Of course I believe that and like all about retribution on all types of fronts. But that's, that's not exactly what he's doing. He's taking art just to, to go to him.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes, that's what I'm saying. I agree with it philosophically. Like, I'm like, I'm not gonna lose sleep over someone stealing art from a museum because like the poor art and like what will we do? Like, I don't really care.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

But I also find to him to be a particularly interesting messenger because I don't buy that that's why you're doing it. My guy, like, I know it's not.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Yeah. I also think like, given his tastes, all of that art moved to the museum by relatively ethical means.

[Tracy Thomas]

Like, it sounds like people just bought it. I mean he does have an art. He does have this argument around like the exorbitant costs of art. And I think like, okay, but also artists deserve to be paid as much as the market will bear. I mean if you want to take on capitalism, like, let's do it, babe. But that's like I don't feel like that's what he's doing either. So to me, like, I think his arguments are sound like I don't have a problem with it. I just don't believe that that is his motive. And for him to sort of pretend like it is, it's just like, Stevon, you're just young, you're just a young white guy who can get away with it and you're fudgeing, soaking it up and you're, you know, it's like the people who go out to the protests who are like, yeah, I just, I, I fudgeing believe in this. And I'm like, what, what do you. Yeah, what is this? Define this. So I mean, but you know the museum system we could update maybe. Yeah, we can work on it. We can work on it. Okay. So he and Anne Katrine, they steal a bunch of stuff. They set up like, you know, some ground rules. If she says no, the thing is off. They just steal the things that really speak to them. They go home, they lay in their attic and they look at the art and they find, just feel good about it. They make videos gloating about how great all of these things are. Then we fast forward a little bit and Katrine and Stefan take his mother to out of town. They go out of town, quick trip. It's a birthday trip, I believe. But not to be confused, it is also a thievery trip.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Yes.

[Tracy Thomas]

The mom conveniently goes outside because an important piece of this story to Stefan and now to us is that the mother knew nothing.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Yes.

[Tracy Thomas]

Somehow, though, every indication we get is that the mother actually knew things, including the video evidence that is given to us by Michael Finkel. The mother conveniently goes outside to walk her dogs because dogs are not allowed in art museums, which I feel like this makes sense for me. They steal a piece. Also on this trip, we find out that Ann Katrina's pregnant and needs to have an abortion because she's like, I love you, Stefan, but also no babe. And the mom is one of those.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Moments that you talked about where the. Or the order that he tells us the thing is interesting.

[Tracy Thomas]

This is. Yes, this is one of those moments. A lot of the moments like this happen around Anne, Katrine and the mother, because I think that's the only way to. He can thread the needle and telling the story without just giving up all the information. Because he doesn't. Because we don't. We don't get the thing where it's like, there's two sides to the story. So we hear stuff on side and then we hear. And Katrine. It's like, nope. We just get. So. So she's pregnant. She decides, I got to go to the doctor. I don't feel good. And the mom's like, okay, I'll go with you. And Stefan's like, okay, have fun, girls. I'll drop you off and I'll go steal some things. Come back.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Great.

[Tracy Thomas]

Rest of the trip. Everybody goes home. Stefan later finds the receipt or gets. Gets a receipt for the. Comes in the mail. He's like, pregnancy termination. Weird. Wait, I remember this day. This is the day I stole the great Bulger. The greatest painting on copper that. So she comes home, he hits her.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Oh, he goes to her place of work and he hits her.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. Oh, he goes to a place of work. I thought she came home and he hit her. Maybe, maybe, maybe it doesn't matter where there's a hit. He screams at her, she flees. There's a breakup.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Yeah. I have to say, I didn't feel like the storytelling was, like, particularly deft in this little abortion to domestic assault section. I was like, ah. And I appreciate that. Maybe he was missing. You know, he. He only had threads to go off of. But I was like, oh, yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

Well, this is the part of the story we're not Having anyone else.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Yeah, To.

[Tracy Thomas]

To cooperate here. Like, we already have a problem of storytelling, which is that Stefan has exactly one friend who's not his mom and his girlfriend at this time. And it is the art framer guy who just, like, teaches him how to frame art. And then he goes to him and says, 16 by 12, 2 inches deep. And then he goes home and builds the frame himself. Like I'm supposed to believe this guy also didn't know what was going on. Yeah, I just. The idea that nobody in his life had any clue, even though they had all the clues in front of them, like, mom, your whole house, they're bringing home all these pieces of art. And they're like, yeah, we got it at a flea market market. And she's like, love this for you, babe. You're such a collector.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

He's stealing five times a month, and it's like, I have no idea what's in the attic.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. And also just like, honey, I love you so much. I bet the attic's crowded. Do you want to put any of those pieces downstairs in the living room or in the dining room where we have dinner every night? Because we're also told that they have dinner every night, so. Hey, how was your day today? Great. Just went to the flea market. Where are you getting all this money for the flea market? Don't know. It's really cheap. Don't have a job. And Katrine buy, like, there's just. I can't believe that the mom doesn't know.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

Anyway, so I think part of the reason that this part of the storytelling gets so slim is because we only have to go off Stefan, and we know that he's lying about a lot of this stuff because he lies about it later in the story on record. So they break up. And to me, this is the part where we go from. This is. This is the moment that we get the beginning of. Of the taste changing.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

I absolutely agree.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes. Because Ann. Katrine does come back to him, and she's like, there's new rules. Oh, wait. No, no, no. I'm sorry. She does come back to him. Then they go to Switzerland and get caught. Or did I transpose those? Do they get caught in Switzerland first? I it up. I know what happens. There's the pregnancy. Then they go to Switzerland and get caught. Then the receipt comes in. Yes, because she is stressed out about being with him after they get caught in Switzerland, but she, like, doesn't know what to do. Then they get caught, then he beats her up, and then they break up. When they come back together, I'll go back to them getting caught switchling, because that's not nothing. When they come back together, she puts down ground rules. She says, you gotta wear gloves.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

I know.

[Tracy Thomas]

No going to Switzerland, no stealing in Switzerland. And I think those are basically the rules. Right? Am I forgetting one?

[Kira O'Sullivan]

That's it.

[Tracy Thomas]

I think that's it. Those are the important ones.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

It to me, like this is when I, because I was really, the whole book, I was so I was thinking, what's going on with him? What is it? And I really think it was an addiction to stealing. And this is the most. I felt like, okay, this is an addict and this is an addict's partner where like the stealing is the problem. It is so obvious it is the problem. She is not addicted to stealing, but her partner is. So she is engaging in the practice of heavy stealing. So like her lifestyle has been affected. She is starting with these ground rules that are somewhere along the lines of like, can you just not drink in the mornings? Can you just not. Can we just not steal in places that there are security cameras and it's crowded? And then as it's intensifying, the ground rules are getting worse. But at no point is she doing what actually needs to be done, which is no more stealing at all. It's just that, like she's making more rules and she's making it more difficult. And I also. And another reason I felt like it was showing itself as an addiction is because what ended up the straw that broke the camel's back wasn't actually a stealing moment. It was like this domestic assault incident which like that is what's going on in the addict's brain. Everything's so addled, the priorities. Da da da da, da da da. And it ended up resulting in this, you know, symptom of the addiction.

[Tracy Thomas]

Right. Because their relationship is not just a relationship about two people. The stealing is like this other part of their relationship. Because when they're broken up, he steals nothing.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Yes.

[Tracy Thomas]

Later on he does steal things by himself. And earlier on there's a few times where he steals things by himself. Like when she's getting an abortion. But while they're broken up, he steals nothing. And then when they get back together, he starts sealing ugly stupid shit.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Yes.

[Tracy Thomas]

And I feel like. So my, my psychoanalysis as a professionally licensed Lee trained therapist, we call it, we say licenselly trained. That's sort of like the lingo is that the fear of losing the ability to, to steal slash be with the girlfriend turns it into the hoarding before there was discernment, before, when they were in it together, there was always like, we're in this together. We can take what we want. Like, this is like this sexy thing. And then when she goes away and this whole thing disappears, when he's able to do it again, that's when it becomes like full fledged addiction. That's when it becomes full fledged hoarding. Because he can't. He. He couldn't do it and he realized how much he had to do it. He, like, wasn't living his life without doing it. And so then he's like, it. This could go away at any moment. I'm gonna just steal. And this is when he starts to get reckless. This is when he starts to steal the ugliest shit to the point that, like, later on in the book when. When there's like this tapestry he steals and then it's thrown on the side of the road by the mother. And then we find out that the fudgeing police find it and they're like, this is from a flea market. This is trash. Like, everybody who finds his art later on is like, this is literal trash. I'm going to put it on my chicken coop. Like, he's just. And like an Katrine's, like, we already have one of these. This is the third best one of these. Like, it's just like he's out of control. And I think this, like, shift, this breakup, not the arrest, but the, like, breakup is the thing. So that's my theory about this whole thing. You know what we should do? We should take a quick break and then we'll be right back. Hello. Hello, party people. It is I, Tracy Thomas, your host, and I'm here to tell you about a really fun thing that I did. It's called the Nonfiction Reading Guide. It's the second annual one. It is 30 books long. It is all unputdownable nonfiction that I love, and it is yours. If you join the stacks, pack on Patreon and Slash, or subscribe to my newsletter, TracyThomas substack.com the guide is amazing. And when you subscribe to either or both of those places, you get access to it, but you also get access to bonus episodes. Now, if you want to have a little bit more of a bookish community, the Patreon is going to be the place for you. That's where we're doing our virtual book club meetups. That's where we're talking on the discord. That's where we're talking about the mega challenge. Go to patreon.com the stacks. Join us there if you're thinking, you know what? I really just want to read Tracy's thoughts. I want to know what's going on in the stacks. The book she's reading, the pop culture hot takes. You're going to be better served by going to Tracy thomas.substack.com and subscribing to the newsletter. And for those of you who are like, I can't do it right now, you could join the newsletter for free, but you won't get all of the perks. I'm just throwing that out there. Either way, by supporting the show, you're supporting me, a black woman run in? No, just whatever. Either way, I appreciate you and your support. Check out Patreon Check out Substack. Happy listening. Hey everybody, I'm back to tell you about Lumi Gummies. Imagine if edibles just made you feel good instead of too high. Consistent, mellow and super delicious, Lumi Gummies are specifically designed to make you feel good, not stoned. Whether you're looking for an end of day de stressor, a midday mood boost or help getting the best sleep ever, Lume Gummies has a strain that is right for you. As you all know, I am a reader. Reading is my job. I also really like to sleep and both of those things seem to be getting harder and harder as I deal with gestures wildly. The rest of the world Microdosing Gummies can be a real game changer. 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Discover what lies beyond the edge of your Seat. Start your free 30 day trial at audible.com wondery us that's audible.com wondery us. Okay, we are back. Let's continue on with sort of the narrative, the story. And then, and then there's some things I'm talking about. So we've done the hoarding, we've done the abortion. He. He gets a job in Switzerland three years after this arrest. And I guess we should do what happens in Switzerland. In Switzerland, they go to this like art gallery and they're the only people there. And she's like, don't do it. And he's like, okay, I won't. But then he steals like some painting and they get out and they're walking on the street and someone taps them on the shoulder and it is the art gallery person and the police and they're like, what the. They get arrested, they get thrown in jail, they're separated immediately. They both say nothing. They both are like, we've never done this before. No big deal. They get off with a. I'm so sorry. I just love the piece so much. I wanted to steal it. We've never done this before. This was just such, such bad behavior. So sorry. Switzerland is like, okay, a little fine. They spent like two nights in jail or something. Go home, you can't come back for three years. Three years later, Stefan is like, God, I'm dying to be employed after not having been employed this entire time. I want to be a waiter in Switzerland.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

I would just love a 90 minute commute to my waiting, waiting tables job.

[Tracy Thomas]

And I live in a country called France where we are not known for food or restaurants. So yeah, he, he drives very far to go to Switzerland. And remember now, the rules post abortion fight are no stealing in Switzerland. Which of course, as you know, Stefan loves a rule. So he immediately starts stealing Switzerland again.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

He also takes her on a vacation to the Dominican Republic, which was just casually thrown in because he's making the most money he's ever made in his life. Which makes sense because he's basically had two jobs that we know of. One was being a security guard at an art museum. And two is being a very high paid waiter at a Swiss restaurant.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Moments like the, you know, the two week sojourn to the doctor reminded me that this story is taking place in the late 90s and early 2000s. Like sometimes. Wouldn't you sometimes forget and be like, I think it's 1910. And. And then you'd remember like, oh, this is like fully modern times.

[Tracy Thomas]

Well, I kept being like this man is 50 years old. I forgot he was like 25. I think the time period was like fine because like they established that early. But even though they told us at the end of the first chapter, like, and he's only 25, I know I was like, only a 50 year old man would behave in this way. I just, I mean, I don't know any 25 year old art snobs. I know they exist. I just don't know those people. So to me, this just feels like an old person thing. Not that 50 is old. I don't mean that I'm getting there.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

You just mean that 50 year olds love art.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, I'm just like 50 year olds love art. But yes, these, these moments of like this romantic getaway. I'm like, oh, right, you're 27.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Like you're 27 and like the year 2001, like what is happening?

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes, it's like pre 9 11. You guys are just bought your tickets that day, just walked up, got on the plane. Okay. So then they come back, they start stealing again together pretty much right away. But. But then he starts stealing on his own in Switzerland. He starts stealing again. Crap. He goes back, he starts going back to places a lot. He goes to a place he's been to before to steal a 100 foot tapestry. He brings a duffel bag. I just like this whole thing, this is like we fully jumped the shark. Of all the things that Stefan has told us about what he's doing and why, right? Like it used to be like, only things you can put in your pocket. My guy, you brought a full duffel bag that he threw out the window. It's around this part in the book that we also find out that like, I'm taking it because the art needs to be loved and cared for. Where we find out that he's super gluing the art, that he's right. Like throwing it out of windows, he's stuffing it under his bed. He. They're dropping things, they're breaking like, yeah, the fantasy that Michael Finkel sells us. And I do, I do want to give him some credit because I think that he intentionally sells us this fantasy and respects his reader enough to. For us to be like, this is not what we were told.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Right.

[Tracy Thomas]

Like he doesn't think that we're like that we're believing this anymore. Or like he set it up so that we also can be like, oh my God, everything's falling apart.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Of course. Like, he tells us about the basket in the bathroom full of bronze sculptures.

[Tracy Thomas]

Like Right. Like, he. He. He wants us to go on this. This journey with everybody.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

And it's a change in the character, too.

[Tracy Thomas]

Like, this is part of the ark. This is part of the ark. I mean, I do think that Stefan Brightweiser has a great character arc. I think it's a full heel turn, though, and not a redemptive arc.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Yes, right. Exactly.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. We go from, like, plausible, you know, Robin Hood situation into full bad guy.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

Eventually, we're in Switzerland again. We're back in Lucerne, the same city that he has been apprehended for. He goes to a museum by himself, gets on a chair, climbs up to the ceiling, and cuts down a bugle. A Wagner bugle. That is bugle I. I believe. And Katrine, this is the thing where she's like, we have, like, three of these. This is the worst one.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

And he goes back and he recounts the story to her, and she says, but did you wear gloves? And he's like, oh, my God. Oops, I'm so sorry. I'll go back. And she goes, no, I'll go back.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

I know.

[Tracy Thomas]

Would you go back, Kira?

[Kira O'Sullivan]

No.

[Tracy Thomas]

They have never gone back before.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

No, I do. No, I would not have gone back. I also, like, around this time, I really started to question, sort of from the point of him getting the restaurant job in Switzerland. I was like, do you want to be caught?

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. This is what I'm saying. He's into the kink of the stealing.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Yes.

[Tracy Thomas]

It's not the fucking art. Okay.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

No. And maybe it was, but it's not anymore.

[Tracy Thomas]

But it's the stealing. It's the vibe. It's the thrill. I mean, we get that the first deal, how he talks about, like, he's so nervous. He's so nervous. And eventually the relief comes. And that, like, every time, the relief comes faster and faster. So, like, to your addiction point, it's sounding like, you know, a hit of something.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

But yes, I. The behavior. But she. If. If this is. If he's typically believed, she is the one who's like, we're gonna go back. I'm gonna go back in and wipe your fingerprints off 24 hours later.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

I know. I. I think she doesn't trust him, but I don't quite. I. What. What's your take on that move?

[Tracy Thomas]

To me, that's fucking crazy. There's only two real explanations for me here. That Anne Katrine is dumb as rocks or that that this is not actually what happened, that Stefan is lying to Finkel to make the story make sense or like, to make it feel less bad.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Right.

[Tracy Thomas]

To go back when the only time I think previous that they've ever, like, gone back is there was an encounter earlier where they, like, had to, like, go in and fix something, but they, like, they left something or it was like something very minor and they hadn't really left the scene of the crime. They'd like, forgotten something and ran back in or. And then. And then they go have lunch at the museum cafe or something like that and they realize something. Yeah, yeah. And they've realize that, like, if you play it cool and you eat at the cafe and you say bye to everyone, that nobody suspects you. But this 24 hours later going back thing and him saying that it's her idea, to me, it's. It's fishy. I don't. Yeah, it just doesn't. It doesn't make sense.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

I would say a closer version of reality could be he went to the museum, he didn't have gloves. The. The bugle overtook him, he had to steal it. He brings it home and he's like, I didn't have gloves on. We have to go back. You need to go in the museum and you need to wipe off my fingerprints.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay, this, this, this works for me. My only pushback on this is I don't think he's been stealing with gloves this whole time. Anytime he's stealing alone, he's not putting the gloves on.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Interesting.

[Tracy Thomas]

The gloves are her thing. He's. He thinks he's above gloves.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Right, right, right, right.

[Tracy Thomas]

Like, he. What does he need gloves for? Like, he's not getting caught.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

It's also interesting because, like, the, like, what a nice, like, tension building device is. Like, the fact that fingerprinting technology is improving as time goes on.

[Tracy Thomas]

Sure.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

By the end, I'm like, oh, my God, buddy. Like, we are fully in the age of, like, we all have desktop computers. Like, put on some damn gloves.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes, yes. A thousand percent. So however. However this is to be believed, they go back. He does not go inside. She goes inside. Then she comes walking out and she's like, making faces at him across this park. Like, get out of here. You know, cut it out. He's like, what the is going on with her face? He's apprehended. The police pull up. He's apprehended. We don't. This is again, another point in the story where we don't know what's happened. Michael Finle knows what's happened, but we do not. All we know is that he is being locked up. We come to Find out that. That he has been spotted because there was a call out about the bugle on the local news. Some guy who walks this park all the time recognized the jacket that he heard about in the news story. And that's how they find him. That's how they catch him, because he goes back to the scene of the crime like a idiot. I'm going to skip a lot because we are running out of time, and I want to make sure we get to this fucking trial good. Basically, the guy who. The, like, the police officers who are doing all this art stuff, they're in all these different countries, they're not talking to each other. But the guy in Switzerland who gets Brightweiser is like, something's up. This guy played it really cool with me. I don't know. Then we find out again, this is something we find out later in the storytelling, that all of this art has been discovered in this canal in France. The detective is like, I'm just going to try it. He floats the picture out. He's like, we know it's you. We know this is your art. Did you steal this? And he's like, if you say that you stole it, you could be free. And he's like, okay, I stole it. And then he's like, what about this? And he's like, yeah, I stole this, too. And then he, like, does it again. And then Bright Weezer's like, oh. And he's like, how about all of these? And pulls out 135 pictures from his Polaroid bag. The We. Then we find out that the mother, allegedly working by her own lonesome, empties the attic. She takes all of these tchotchkes. Excuse me, Flemish artists, but that's what they are, all these tchotchkes. She dumps them in this canal. She. Then we find out that all of the paintings have not been recovered. This part of the book was stunning. I know. And then we get this scene in the book again. Another moment where Finkel holds out on us. We get this part of the moment in the book, which I want to talk about, where Bright Weezer is like, we don't know what's happened with the paintings. We just know what's happened with art. And Bright Wheezer is like, my mom did this to protect me. Just like, if you find out the police are coming and you've got drugs.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Yep.

[Tracy Thomas]

You flush them down the toilet.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Exactly. Or you do them all really quick.

[Tracy Thomas]

You do. Yeah. Or you put them in your vagina. And then we find out. Then the mom Says, I did it to punish him. I hate his art. And we're like, did what? What did you do, mom? The mom burned the paintings.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Burned them.

[Tracy Thomas]

Hundreds of thousands of dollars of paintings. So, Kira, here is my question to you.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

Criminal or minimal? Burning these fucking paintings? Paintings.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Criminal.

[Tracy Thomas]

Extremely criminal.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

I am an art lover. No ounce of this punishment befits his crime. In what world?

[Tracy Thomas]

It.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Like, It's. It's horrible. It's.

[Tracy Thomas]

This is. This is petty crime. Like Pantheon. Yes, it is, because she does this to be a fudgeing asshole.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Oh, she does it to be petty.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes, petty, because there's a version of this where she says, oh, my God, I found all this art in my son's attic. I had no idea. Here. Or there's a version where she just drops it in a field and waits for someone to find it. It is the dousing it in gasoline, perhaps, but maybe not, because fire is flammable and just poof. God. And also, she won't tell anyone what she's done.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

The only thing I will say is that it is possible that the mother was doing, you know, what you do when the cops are coming for the drugs and flushing them all away. And she does. She tells us, like, retroactively that she has done it to punish her son. But that could be an excuse to.

[Tracy Thomas]

Help her get off so that she.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Is not implicated because. Because what she is doing is destroying evidence.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes. Yes. I mean, she. There is a world. Yes, correct. There is a world that she is protecting her son. This is the best idea she comes up with.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

I do think you would have been better off just throwing it all in the canal than fudgeing. Burning the wooden art. That is crazy to me, because, I mean, look, I. You know what? She might not be. I don't know. I can't diagnose her. All I know is that this moment in the book, I was like, are you. Are you kidding?

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Oh, gagged. Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

Because. Because the whole time, I just assumed the art eventually got back. Right? Like, that's where Binkle is leading us to.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Yes.

[Tracy Thomas]

And then we find it in the canal. Great. The art's going back. This is a. This is a victimless crime. But it is not a victimless crime. These beautiful paintings were burned at the.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Billion dollars worth of paintings. Were burned.

[Tracy Thomas]

Were burned. Just burned. And. And this. This, to me, is the part of the book that I found fascinating.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

Stefan is put in jail for his crimes. The mom is, like, given a fine. Mm. I don't know. I don't. I I'm not a prison person. No, but if you're gonna say one person goes to jail and one person pays a fine, I'm locking up mother dearest. Wow. I am. I am. She. She did the irreparable harm. Like, she can't be taken back. Obviously, Stefan got the ball rolling. If not for Stefan, the mom doesn't have access to the art. So I'm just saying if one person, if. If it's Mary, kill, but it's really just kill. Right. Like, if it's jail or fine.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

In. To me, the mom has done the thing that owes a debt to society. She has destroyed the culture. He just owes me money.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

I wonder if it's a matter of, like, the counts against it, because it's been seven years of like five times a month.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Three times. With the girlfriend. Two times. And the mom. More just like one time was like, oops.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. I mean. Correct. And I think it's interesting because they say in the book, in Switzerland, the laws are as such that it's not the crime, it's how you commit it. So if you steal a candy bar with a gun, you're gonna get more jail time than if you just. Than if you steal a very expensive diamond. Because the. The harm to humans, the potential harm to people is the thing that they're after. So his crimes only could have maximum gotten him five years in Switzerland. In America, he's still in jail and will be in jail for the rest of his life. Because America is obsessed with prisons. And also the mom is in jail. And also Anne, Katrina's in jail. And also the framer guy is in jail. In this country, they're all buried under the jail. Yeah. But in Switzerland, he can get max five. I think he gets three. But then gets off because he did good behavior. The mom gets basically nothing. And Katrine is in jail for one day. I. I actually, one of the things I ended up loving about this book is I was like, this is a great abolitionist text. Like, I was just like, I know people who read this book are so mad that he did not spend 75 years in jail. As I was reading this, I was literally like, people are going to freak about this.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Oh, for sure. Because he's not in jail. And then he keeps stealing more and he goes back for two days and then he steals again. And it's. And I'm sure somebody reading it is thinking, like, if he were only in jail, he wouldn't still be stealing.

[Tracy Thomas]

Correct. Correct. And I'm just like, let him steal The Abercrombie and Fitch jeans at the airport or whatever the he was up to. Stealing at the airport is the most reckless thing. Like, I don't like the airport after 9. 11. Yeah, I just. Stefan, babe, what are you doing?

[Kira O'Sullivan]

He's going through it.

[Tracy Thomas]

He's going through it. Do we care that he's still stealing?

[Kira O'Sullivan]

What I found myself caring about or being interested in the most at the end of the book was the new girlfriend, Stephanie. Stephanie was my shining star for me. For me. I just loved. I. I loved how like, quickly she popped out of nowhere. A month in, she's like, move in with me, babe. He steals something, he puts it on her wall. His whole relationship with Anne Katrine has taught him that, like, this is gonna be okay. She boots him to the curb, takes an iPhone picture. I guess at this point she maybe took a BlackBerry. She took a BlackBerry? Yeah, exactly. She BBM this to the cops. And she was like, put this man away for a night or two because he stole something and I'm not with him anymore.

[Tracy Thomas]

I was like, I'm not gonna go, girl. Yes. I thought. I loved it. I loved it. Even the dad was like, boo.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

He was like, you've. You have learned nothing.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Yes. What?

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay, if we are in a world such as Switzerland or, you know, a world without prison, is there restitution that we feel like he owes us or society? Is there anything that you would like to see happen to him for his behavior?

[Kira O'Sullivan]

That is such a good question. I mean, in the, in the book, he has this like sort of tete a tete with therapy. Of course I would love him to have some like, inpatient treatment. And. And I kind of think it's about. Leave it there.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

You know, he, he. I'm not a prison person, but I oftentimes feel like crimes committed, they. They like he's miserable in the end.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Like, his life sucks. And I'm like, well, that's enough for me.

[Tracy Thomas]

So this is what I thought of, which actually I thought of because of Stefan, which is that they should force him to actually work as museum security. I thought that was a great idea.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Oh, his like, suggestion at the end of that, like ghost written book.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes. Because it's like catching me if you can, right? It's like you have this. The hackers help you protect, help you learn how to beat hackers. Like, you hire that person to protect these museums because it sounds like there's a lot of very small fixes. Right. Like he wasn't going into the Louvre and stealing he wasn't, like, masterminding. He was just walking in and, like, lifting up a case.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

You know, like, I'm just like, let him pay you back by helping make these places more secure. Let him do his, like, debt to society by taking his skill set and putting it to good use. Because also, I genuinely believe if he felt seen and useful and that people were impressed by him and they stroked his ego just a little bit by being like, how can you help us? I bet he wouldn't steal. I bet he would do obsessed. I bet he would become obsessed with catching people who try to steal on his new system. I think he is into the kink of being the best at it. Of being. Of being the. Like, they can't get me. I'm so smart. So if you just set him up, give him a little video camera, you put him in a little room, and you say, protect this.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

See, only thing is, like, I just don't. I, I, I just don't trust him enough to believe that he wouldn't have that job and still be stealing.

[Tracy Thomas]

I actually, I think he would, but you know what I think he would do? I think he'd have the job and then he'd go to another museum and steal and then be like, you should hire me.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Oh, my God.

[Tracy Thomas]

Because then he would be able to get off on being like, I did steal this thing.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Yeah. I mean, I don't know.

[Tracy Thomas]

I mean, I. He has a skill set. We should be putting it to good use. Like, and, you know, I think you can't really talk about this guy in this book and not talk about the fact that, like, this, like, preppy white boy who's stealing all this billions of dollars of art gets this whole lovely book and, like, gets this whole redemptive arc from Michael Finkel when there are so many people who have been locked up in jail for literally stealing a candy bar.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

Like, it's just. It is. The book is such a, like, fun little romp until you sit down and think about any element of it for too long, and then you're like, what the fuck are we doing here? Yeah.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

And there's all different ways to look at it, too, because it is, on some level, incredible how skilled he is.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

It is unbelievable. I could not go into a museum and steal a single piece of art.

[Tracy Thomas]

I couldn't steal a pin from the gift shop. No. I don't have the balls. Personally. No, I couldn't.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

I would turn myself in.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. I, I just, I. The anxiety of the whole thing would Be too much for me.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

I have such a guilty conscience.

[Tracy Thomas]

I me, I've never stolen anything in my entire life.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Wow.

[Tracy Thomas]

I know. Christian, my editor, someone said something on this podcast once and was like, I stole something. And I was like, I never sold anything. Christian, text me and was like, you've never stolen anything. I was like, I have it. I can't do it. So, I mean, I, I. And then he also, like, steals Michael Finkel's computer.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

Remember at the end, Michael fingers like. I was like, how did you do it? And he. He's like, did you notice that I just stole your computer?

[Kira O'Sullivan]

I know. That's the notes on the reporting section. And I have to say, I thought that move. That was the one time I was like, you're a little sexy.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. I was into it. I was like, take it all.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

It is important. So we've alluded to this a lot, but it's important just to at least say this out loud. And Katrine and the mother refused to speak to anyone about everything. And basically, in the end, both of their defenses are like, he's the worst. And Katrine's like, I barely even dated him. All the whole time I was with him. I was scared of him. I was basically Stockholm syndrome. It was my personal hell. And as evidenced by the moment I got away from him, I was immediately impregnated within less than a year. Do you think that the pregnancy was part of the defense? Like, do you think she went out and got pregnant? Because she was like, this will separate me from him. Wow. Because we're told that she's no longer, like, very quickly after. She's not with the. With the father.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

You know, that wasn't my interpretation. My interpretation is that she really was not healed.

[Tracy Thomas]

Sure.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

And that she was acting very much out of a wound and just. He had left a really big hole in her, and she was like, oh, boy. Let's. Let's put something here.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. Okay.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

And. And so that. That was my take on it.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yours is way better. Yours is much more generous to her. I. I had some criminal or minimal thoughts about her, to be honest. I was really torn on her because I. I get it. I'm gonna take care of myself first. Yeah. I'm gonna take care of myself first. Like, if I can get out of this and sell you down the river, that's what I'm gonna do. But I thought it was a little far when he wrote her the letter and she gave it to the parole officer, snitches that to me. That to me was criminal, not minimal. Like, I was. I. I was literally like, you know what, Aunt Katrine? You could have just shredded it. Like, you didn't have to go and get him in trouble. When he. When she knew that he had now taken on the mantle of lying for her and saying, oh, right, she wasn't there. I don't know her. Can't put it on her. And I just feel like she didn't have to do that. Nobody would have known. She could have dumped it in the toilet, could have been gone.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

You know, we didn't. We don't know that much about her new life and that's kid and this partner. But I was picturing this letter arriving and the boyfriend seeing it over her shoulder and him being like, okay. Like, I kind of don't. I sort of see her as, like, I don't. I don't think she does much without, like, conferring with somebody else. That.

[Tracy Thomas]

That was so much more generous to her than I am. I really wanted her to be a villain, but you're swaying me. I also think, like, if she is to be believed, like, if her story that he was really scary to her. And yes, if all of that is true for her, then I understand it.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

The picture we get of them, though, again, I know, is all through Stefan's vision, except for we do get a little bit that, like, the people around her knew that they were together, but we don't. You know, they don't have friends, they don't have a community. The only person she even has in her life, it sounds like, is his mom. Like, that's who goes with her to get her abortion. Right. Like, really so sad.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

That's really sad.

[Tracy Thomas]

Really sad. So. So maybe because we're only getting stuff on side. He was a bigger menace than we know. And so, you know.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Yeah. Have to imagine because, you know, from his point of view, we've learned about the abortion, and it was already sad. And we've learned about, you know, the domestic incident, and it was already sad. And like, if he told us about one, she would have told us about five. No doubt. Or more so, like, I think you're right. Things were really shitty for her. And I think her turning that letter into the cops was her. Her being like, this pattern is broken.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

I don't. With you. I'm awake now.

[Tracy Thomas]

And I was, okay, fine, minimal.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

I was happy for her in that.

[Tracy Thomas]

Moment, I have to say, okay, okay, I've been swayed. I was wrong. I'm wrong. I can take that. I just Think. You know, I'm always looking for a villain. I love a villain. Oh yeah. I just, I'm always want someone to be the asshole and I feel like I, I would have liked them both to be monsters as opposed to her being a victim. It's more fun to enjoy the book at all.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Yeah, of course, of course.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay. I think, I think that's everything. Would you watch this as a TV show or movie? Yes, I would watch the.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Out of this, definitely.

[Tracy Thomas]

Who do you, who do you cast as Stefan and Anne Katrine?

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Okay. So I looked him up because I was like, let's see. And I do think when he was 26, he was probably a good looking guy.

[Tracy Thomas]

He was. Okay, maybe he was not my type. Well, they kept being like, he's so small and slight. I was like, I'm. I'm tall. So I was sort of like, not for me.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

I know there's like a couple different ways you could do it. Like, it could be like a Kieran Culkin.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

But I think knowing Hollywood, we would probably get like an Ansel Elgort.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, okay. I think it'd be the problem about Kieran Culkin is he's a little too likable, a little too endearing. Like, he's too quirky. You need someone who's like more recluse, you know, someone who's like a little more. Could be handsome but like weird.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Okay.

[Tracy Thomas]

Kind of. Kind of ick. I don't know. Well, you know who it could be who's sort of hot, but I think could maybe do ick if we gave him a chance. Tell me, is Jeremy Allen White, do you think ick?

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Yeah, Jeremy still got hot, but I.

[Tracy Thomas]

Think he could play like, like a real, you know, locked in Cuckoo Bee, you know?

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Also I'm thinking of the actors who were in Challengers with Zendaya last summer and they sort of like spurned that trend of rat boy summer. I think it's Mike Feist and Josh o' Connor. Like either one of them.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes, yes. And then for the gal who knows, she, they, we. I never, I could never find a picture of her.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Just some gorgeous wallflower. Right.

[Tracy Thomas]

You think? Okay, I, I couldn't tell. Yeah, sure. I don't know any young lady actresses. I feel like by name, except for the people who are in euphoria. But like, like in her heyday, maybe like a Brie Larson?

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Yeah, I think so.

[Tracy Thomas]

Maybe. I don't know. And Anya Taylor Joy, she's too like, interesting looking. Like she's too striking. She walks into your museum, you're like, who is that?

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Yeah, but it's Hollywood, so every character.

[Tracy Thomas]

Is going to be hot, but she's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Doe eyed. Yeah. What about. What about that girl that everybody loves who I don't think is very good? Florence Pugh. People love her. Yeah. I don't love her. She's not my fave. But she's very pretty and. But she also could kind of maybe blend in if you made her a brunette.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Yeah. And she can play very demure, and then she can really come up.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, maybe her. I don't know. I'm so bad at this kind of actress. It's like, really? Again, I love a villain story, so I'm looking for the movies where women are allowed to be awful. Anything else that we didn't talk about that you're like, we have to talk about? I feel like we got to everything. I hope.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

There was one section I marked, one little quote that just, like, stood out to me. It's on page 104, where he really talks about Finkel, that is, talks about how art contradicts Charles Darwin's theory of natural selection.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Which states that a species survives on a hostile planet chiefly by eliminating inefficiency and waste. Creating art consumes time, effort, and resources without providing food, clothing, or shelter. Many art theorists now believe that the reason for art's ubiquity is that humanity has overcome natural selection. Our big brains have been released from the vigilance of evading predators and seeking sustenance, permitting our imagination to gamble and explore. It exists because we've won the evolutionary war.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

And I just was like.

[Tracy Thomas]

And isn't there, like, one little part that's like, art? Art means we're free or something like that?

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Yes.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, I. I love that. My thing was, though, I was like, but people, artists. Artists type people, people who are creatives, need to make things to be like. Okay. So I was thinking that it might have actually had an evolutionary, like, purpose in the sense that certain kinds of people could only function if they were able to have, like, an outlet for the rest of their. Their life.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Of course. Of course. I'm a writer and, like, making art saves my life every day. Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

But I'm like, maybe that's. You know, I feel this way about, like, making things, too, but I'm like, maybe that's because I don't have to hunt. Like, I have no concept of, like, if I had to get berries and I had to know what kind of berries, but I definitely I definitely flagged that part too. I was like, this is very interesting.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Yeah, it was just so striking. And also to read something about art in the middle of a book which is in and of itself art. And, you know, it just, I was like, that's just really interesting. And also, like, the intersection of art and commerce is so interesting. And like, the idea of putting value on something that somebody's made and say, and ownership and just all of that. I was like, I was really, I was really excited about those themes.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, I think. And I, I think there's. Yes, there's these two parts of this book. Right. It's like, what does this book bring up for you? And also what is happening in this book.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Exactly.

[Tracy Thomas]

And I, I feel like, you know, we talked about the, like, punishment part of it and also the sort of, like, argument about stealing art because art has already been stolen. And I think, you know, I think part of. Or brightweezer would be like to say that, you know, putting a price on these things is, Is criminal and that. And that he is, like, vindicating that by, by taking it, you know, like, subverting these ideas. And, and again, so I, you know, you can end here, but I'll stand by my point. He is the wrong messenger. But the message is not wrong.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Yeah, I, I think the message is not wrong, but I don't think. Think that he believes that.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes, I agree.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

And I, I. As evidenced by the fact that at one point he was trying to minimize the effects of his crimes and saying, I think they were only worth 30 million. And then once he got to prison, he was like, yeah, some of that stuff I stole was worth 2 billion. I was like, no, you. You've undercut yourself, sir.

[Tracy Thomas]

Undercut yourself. Yes, of course. He's just like a little weasel guy.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Yeah, that's it.

[Tracy Thomas]

That's it. He's just a weasel. He's bright weasel and he never, ever learned his lesson. And with that, ladies and gentlemen, we. You. There you have it. Be sure to listen to the end of today's episode to find out our July book club pick. And Kira, thank you so much for being here. This was so much fun. This was the absolute perfect book for us. I loved it. Thank you.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

Thanks for having me, Tracy. I really enjoyed it. And if you like listening to stories about petty bullshit, you should listen to petty crimes.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes. If you like this at all this, you got to go listen. Even if you didn't like this, you should probably still listen because they do it much better over there. They're very their criminal and minimal section is much better than my chaotic one.

[Kira O'Sullivan]

I think your podcast like your podcast like adds a few brain cells and ours will take a few away way.

[Tracy Thomas]

Listen to me on the podcast where you can have all your brain cells disappear instantly as I as I pretend to be a French champagne lover. I love everyone else. We will see you in the Stacks. All right y' all, that does it for us today. Thank you so much for listening and thank you again to Kira for joining the show. I'd also like to say a huge thank you to Amber Watson, Leslie Guam and Jackson Musker for making today's episode possible. And now it's time for what you've been waiting for, the announcement of our July Book Club pick. It is Toni Morrison Month yet again and we are reading the final novel by Toni Morrison, God Help the Child. The book explores the ways childhood suffering can shape adulthood and we will discuss the book on Wednesday, July 30. So tune in next Wednesday to find out who our guest will be. If you love this show and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com/the stacks and join the Stacks Pack and check out my newsletter@tracy thomas.substack.com make sure you're subscribed to the Stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts and if you're listening through Apple Podcasts or Spotify, please leave us a rating and a review. For more from the Stack Stacks, follow us on social media, Hestax Pod, on instagram threads and TikTok and check out our [e-mail] this episode of the Stacks was edited by Christian Duenas with production assistance from Wikia Frilo. Our graphic designer is Robin McCrite and our theme music is from Tagirigis. The Stax is created and produced by me, Tracy Thomas. Are you feeling stuck in your career or lacking employment at the moment? Experiencing symptoms of job dissatisfaction? You might be suffering from a common condition known as career stagnation, but don't worry, there's a solution. Monster.com Monster.com offers a comprehensive suite of career boosting tools designed just for you. Our free resume review and AI Interview prep tool will help you stand out. Out from the crowd. Need more guidance? Dive into our career advice articles for expert tips and insights. And don't forget to check out our salary tools to ensure you're getting paid what you're worth. Side effects may include a new job, increased confidence and a brighter future. Consult monster.com today and take the first step towards your new career. Ready for your next job opportunity? Visit monster.com now.