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- [00:00]
Tracy Thomas
Hi, everybody, it's me, Tracy, here to tell you about a book that I think you're gonna love. It is called the Great Man. It's a novel by Keira Davis Lurie. It is a diverse retelling of the Great Gatsby, set among the black elite of post war Los Angeles, and is inspired by real life historic events. Pause for a moment. Does that not sound like me? Real life historic events, a retelling of a classic and set in Los Angeles. It follows Charlie Tramell, a young veteran, who is lured by his cousin Marguerite to the esteemed West Adams Heights, aka LA's newly rechristened Sugar Hill. There is black opulence, there is success, there is old money intertwined with white privilege. And Charlie finds himself drawn into this tantalizing world of possibilities where he meets James Reaper Mann. As Charlie navigates a landscape rife with ambition, betrayal and societal turmoil, he soon finds himself beside Reaper, facing a piv little decision that could end in tragedy. Hello. This is giving amazing coinciding with the 100th anniversary of the Great Gatsby, Davis Lurie's book masterfully reimagines the opulence and social dynamics of F. Scott Fitzgerald's classic novel within the real world backdrop of LA's Sugar Hill, offering a compelling exploration of wealth and class. The Great Man, a novel by Kira Davis Lurie, is available now wherever books are are sold.
- [01:26]
Dana A. Williams
I had interacted with Ms. Morrison, both formally and informally at this point for, you know, more than 10 years. And it gets to the point where we've talked so much about this book. And she's very close friends with the person who's my mentor, Eleanor Traylor. And so I go to Dr. T's for this new Year's open house that she usually has like from 10 in the morning until like 10 the next morning. And she says, you know, she sends me upstairs for something that she knows that Morrison's up there, so she's also like, going to surprise me. And I go, aw, gee whiz. So now I'm at the position in the position where I'm actually trying to dodge Toni Morrison, like, and that's, that's the beauty of my life at this point, that I am trying to avoid a writer that I'm working on because I've not made as much progress as I wanted to make.
- [02:22]
Tracy Thomas
Welcome to the Stacks, a podcast about books and the pieces people who read them. I'm your host, Tracy Thomas, and today I am joined by Dana A. Williams. Dana is a professor of African American Literature at Howard and the author of the brand new book Tony at Random, the Iconic Writer's Legendary Editorship, which chronicles Toni Morrison's time as an editor at Random House and her long lasting impact on publishing. Today, Dana and I discuss Toni Morrison as a writer and an editor. We also talk about why Dana chose God Help the Child as our July book club pick. And we get into some of the black classics that are a little bit less well known that Dana thinks you and I should read. Quick reminder, everything we talk about on each episode of the Stacks can be found in the link in the show notes. And if you love this podcast and you want inside access to it, you can head to patreon.com the stacks and join the Stacks Pack. And you can check out my newsletter at Tracy Thomas substack.com by joining either of those places, you're going to get yourself some exclusive content, like bonus episodes, our mega reading challenge. And you get to know that you're making it possible for me to make the Stacks podcast every single, single week. Okay, now it is time for my conversation with Dana A. Williams. All right, folks, you know I have been very excited about this book all year. I know you are very excited about this book. It is finally here. And today on the stacks, I get to talk to the author, Dana A. Williams of the brand new book Tony at Random, the iconic writer's legendary editorship. D. Dana, welcome to the Stacks.
- [03:58]
Dana A. Williams
Thank you so much. I really appreciate the invite. I'm looking forward to our conversation.
- [04:03]
Tracy Thomas
I'm so excited. So you're here this week. We're going to talk about your book. We're going to talk about your taste in reading. At the end of the month, you will be back. We are going to discuss God Help the Child for our annual Toni Morrison Read Book Club. But we will get to that later. For now, I want to start where we always start, which is can you tell me a little bit about yourself and your reading life? Where did you grow up? What brought you into books? What's your relationship to reading? Just a little bit of that, Sure.
- [04:30]
Dana A. Williams
I grew up in North Louisiana in a small town called Tallulah. And one of the things I remember most fondly about that time is just the space to be able to read at will. I joke often. My father built houses for a living among a number of other things, because in that small town, you know, everybody had to do a little bit of everything. But he renovated our house that we grew up in. And I begged and begged and begged for a window seat and I knew he could make me a window seat. We couldn't figure out exactly how this would work, because even as a kid, I was pretty tall. So in the window space just wasn't big enough for me to stretch out completely. But I was convinced I could sit on a cushion with my knees up. And somehow he conveniently forgot every year to build me a window seat.
- [05:24]
Tracy Thomas
Dad.
- [05:25]
Dana A. Williams
I know, right? No, I know now that he and my mother were convinced that I would never leave the house if I had a window seat. Now, it did have a window, so I would have been able to look out to the playground where people were across the field, which is really close to where I went to elementary school. But I think it was intentional. In retrospect, I think they decided, this kid will never leave the house if we build her a window seat, because I was indeed that person who read all the time as much as I possibly could, had really great librarians. That's why libraries are just so important in public schools, because I got all of my first books from my school library and then from the parish, the local library. So I've been a reader for as long as I can remember. I don't ever remember there not being an experience without books, which may be why I have far too many books in my house right now.
- [06:20]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. Do you have a window seat now? When you became an adult, did you get a window seat?
- [06:25]
Dana A. Williams
I have. What is the functional equivalent of a window seat? But I did not. And I just actually, interestingly enough, moved. And there were a couple of things that I thought, like, as long as there's great open space for windows. So now instead of a window seat, I have a whole window room. I mean, I have a whole reading room instead of just a seat. There's a room full of my books and full of great light, so there's a sunroom. So that's why I say it's the equivalent of a window seat. It's even better.
- [06:51]
Tracy Thomas
It's better. It's an upgrade.
- [06:52]
Dana A. Williams
Yeah.
- [06:53]
Tracy Thomas
Take that. I love this. You are a professor.
- [06:57]
Dana A. Williams
Yes.
- [06:58]
Tracy Thomas
And, I mean, you get to talk about books all the time now. How did that change your relationship to being a reader? Like, becoming what I like to call a professional reader, among other things.
- [07:10]
Dana A. Williams
That's interesting that you should ask that question, because I actually started my undergraduate career as a computer science major, which, again, my parents are delightful people. They just let me go along with this as if I was going to actually be a computer science major. And once I changed to English, liberal arts, I said, where did you all let me do this. You have to come to these things, this kind of awareness by yourself. So no one was surprised that I really should have always been an English major. But I was just determined that I was not going to do what I did really well. I wanted, interestingly enough, an undergraduate school. I wanted to be able to work at the time I was at Grambling on something that I wanted to see some level of improvement. I almost thought, like, kind of casually. I do that all the time. I can do that rather effortlessly. And then I shifted a little bit from just thinking about reading as a profession to thinking about writing as a profession. And as you know, the world would have it. There was not a rhetoric and composition program that really focused on the way that we think about African American literature. Vernacular English programs are just much more robust and extensive and culturally sensitive now. But at the time, they weren't. So I did English, started out really thinking about theater. I was convinced that I was going to either, like, be a dramaturg or a theater critic. So I worked on black women playwrights. And then I shifted to fiction, which was my first love to begin with. And it's really tough for me not to read with a pencil, like, behind my ear, because I am thinking about, like, notes. I'm making notes in the margins and having these conversations all the time. I'm a lot better about it now because sometimes I'll read on my iPad instead of the hard copy. But overwhelmingly, I still see myself both casually and professionally, as a professional reader. So I am so glad that you have given me that nomenclature.
- [09:13]
Tracy Thomas
Yes. Well, you are definitely one. I love that you.
- [09:16]
Dana A. Williams
Do you.
- [09:16]
Tracy Thomas
Do you ever, like, delineate in your mind between reading for work and reading for pleasure, or are you always sort of doing both?
- [09:25]
Dana A. Williams
I do delineate for reading for pleasure, and sometimes it gets me in trouble because, like, my relief for myself during that sweet spot of the semester. Classes have ended, but exams haven't begun or I haven't gotten final papers. That's when I'm like, okay, I'm going to read the books that I want to read. I have fallen in love with Stacy Abrams and all of the books that are a part of her series, especially the ones the Avery Keane. I have been a long John Grisham reader. I read all of the Alex Cross by James Patterson. So there are books I love Sunny Hoston. There are books that I see as these are for pleasure. I'm going to read them rather quickly. And I don't imagine that I'll teach them at some point. But then there are those that are a little bit more slippery. I just love Tayari Jones. I love Beach Danticat. And I'm reading those because I really want to read them. But eventually they make their way to my syllabus. Same thing. Jericho Brown comes out with a new collection of poetry, and I'm going for it immediately. And then I think, where can I construct a class to teach this book? It's so critical. Yeah.
- [10:30]
Tracy Thomas
You mentioned theater and, you know, I read your book and I had always had this sneaking suspicion about Toni Morrison that she loved Shakespeare. I just. She writes in her fiction some of the best scenes. And there's a few scenes in my reading that I was like, gosh, this reminds me of Macbeth. Or like, gosh, this reminds. And in your book, I found out that she was maybe going to be an actress and that she played Queen Elizabeth and Richard iii, one of my all time favorite roles. And I just. I wanted to say thank you to you because you gave me. I. I feel like I figured something out, I think. I'm sure if I had researched, I could have found out that that is a fact about her. But I was so excited reading her book. I was taking notes on that. I was like, what Shakespeare parts was she.
- [11:19]
Dana A. Williams
But it's kind of buried, you're right. So I appreciate your lifting it up. She says often in interviews or she would say that the time that she remembered most fondly as Howard at Howard was her time in the theater. And that really just led me to try to figure out what was so enjoyable about it, or who were the people that she worked with or what were some of the plays. So I went down my own rabbit hole and it ends up in the book for, like, you know, nerds like me and you, in the sense that it's not completely relevant to her being an editor, except it kind of is, because I think it informs her artistic journey overall and very clearly. Learning how to write a scene, how to write a scene for it to be viewed. And that active engagement, the participant in her reading, I think, are functions of her time and then what she does with voice. So one of the little holes I went down made it clear that everyone who worked in theater at the time that she was with the Howard Players also took courses in elocution. So voice was so important. Sound was absolutely important. I think those are some transferable creative exercises that we do see both in her writing and in her ability to hear that for other people and their writing. When she was an editor, I Love.
- [12:41]
Tracy Thomas
That you said the elocution. Because I've also long thought that obviously Toni Morrison has one of the great minds, but one of the things that I think has allowed her to feel and be so relevant is the video clips where we get to hear her voice and the way she manipulates her voice when she's making a point and the way that she leans into the long vowel sounds and the like, aggressive staccato of her consonants. It's just. It's not an accident. You are not born. There are many, many smart, amazing writers who cannot and do not do that. And I've always thought that that was a part of why she still is so meaningful to us now. And we still see her video clips all the time. Because not only is she saying brilliant things, but she's saying them in brilliant ways.
- [13:33]
Dana A. Williams
Yes. Her sound. And also, like how to use her body as a performer.
- [13:38]
Tracy Thomas
Yes, yes.
- [13:39]
Dana A. Williams
Really does speak to. And I would agree with you completely, beautiful mind there. But there are so many people who have similarly beautiful minds who cannot perform that brilliance and that genius in the same way that she's able to. And she worked with the best of the best.
- [13:54]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [13:55]
Dana A. Williams
I mean, Ann Cook, James Butcher, Owen Dotson and Dotson, of course, we know from Broadway, but in HBCU circles, especially like Ann Cook and James Butcher and John Lavelle were these really incredible creatives who were old school actors. Like, it just reminds me of the way that people who were trained for the stage think about the difference between something on stage and something in the movie. Like, just saw Othello this past weekend and just thinking about how Denzel Washington said, you know, I really prefer the stage. That's home for me. Like, I prefer that over these movies. And you walk away from his performance thinking he had to do eight of these a week. And it requires the stamina, but it requires a kind of believability and an ability to do things with your voice and with your body to be more convincing. I agree with you completely. One of the reasons we are just so smitten by when we see her performances on video.
- [14:52]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [14:53]
Dana A. Williams
I mean, she's just camera friendly, but also because she knows what to do with her voice. She knows how to create a scene, she knows how to tell a story. She knows when to get the, like, kind of audience participant, whether it's the reader or a live performance, like, how to bring them in, like, how to go up with volume. All of those things, I think, are functions of. Of her time on the stage.
- [15:13]
Tracy Thomas
And it's Clear to me that she has an extreme interest in audience. I mean, that comes out in your book too. When she's talking to her authors and we get to hear from her and the notes back and forth and, you know, when she's talking about titles, it's so clear that audience is something that is at the front of her of, of her work as an editor. And I, I think from reading her novels and her nonfiction as, as well, and watching those videos, like, she, she always knows where that camera is. She always knows who she's talking to, what she's doing to. To the people that she's trying to impact. And I think, you know, it's genius level.
- [15:51]
Dana A. Williams
Yep. And for those writers that she was able to select, those are the, the very qualities that she was looking for. Like, who's talking to the audience and what are they saying? Yeah, who's leaving some space for the reader and like, who's too tight and how can I loosen it up? You know, there were some writers that she absolutely recruited, but then there were, of course, those books that were either assigned to her or that she accepted that didn't meet what we might call like a Morrison aesthetic. But you can definitely see those that she went after were those that did really understand audience and how to bring the audience into the space.
- [16:29]
Tracy Thomas
One of the things that is very clear in your book is how Toni Morrison impacted the authors that she worked with. Did you get a good sense of how those authors impacted her or her own work as, as a writer herself? Was that. Was that ever made clear to you?
- [16:44]
Dana A. Williams
Yeah, I think so, in ways that I was able to speculate about. And then one of our early conversations, we talked about it a little in part because when she talked about Leon Forrest, for instance, as one of the fiction writers and the first male fiction writer that she edited, she talked about how he taught her to write the sermon. So I can't think of Baby Suggs and the Clearing and Beloved now without thinking about how much she admired Forrest as a writer who wrote sermons in what he referred to as his Bloodworth trilogy. There's a tree more ancient than Eden, the Bloodworth Orphans, and two wings to veil my face. And there's a character, Sweetie, who essentially sermonizes and reminds me a little bit of a baby sex like character. She talks about this often in interviews, how Naming Sweet Home in Beloved was an homage of sorts to Henry Dumas, whom she had edited but never met because he was actually already deceased as an ancestor. When she begins to edit his fiction to bring it back out into print again. There are these really cool moments where you see her dropping these recipes into books, and that's the kind of back and forth, give and take in the sense that she had edited this cookbook called Creole Feast, where the chefs basically did what all chefs do when they don't really want you to get the recipe perfectly right. They just tell you all of the ingredients, but they don't tell you, like, if you don't put this butter in at room temperature, you're in trouble, trouble.
- [18:24]
Tracy Thomas
Right, right.
- [18:24]
Dana A. Williams
And as a cook, she was able to take those recipes, which these really incredible chefs in New Orleans had used all of their lives. And of course, they weren't working from a recipe. So then they're also experimenting, trying to figure out is this, like, what's the pinch?
- [18:39]
Tracy Thomas
Right.
- [18:39]
Dana A. Williams
What's a little bit. What's. Until this color? So she has to actually put narrative around these scraps of paper and recipes that she gets, like, you know, if I put this in this book this way, I'm in trouble. But learning how to talk about recipes also, I think, shows up in some of her work as well. And there, the most obvious example, of course, is the work that she does on the black book as an editor, then gives her the inspiration for the Margaret Garner story in Beloved. So there is some give and take. And talking about Gail Jones as a writer. I think Gail Jones's boldness and her unwillingness to kind of neatly close things I think gives Morrison another kind of level of confidence to be able to do it. Not that she couldn't do it absent Jones, but to create this kind of expectation in fiction that reveals life as something that doesn't just get closed up neatly with a bow.
- [19:39]
Tracy Thomas
Right.
- [19:40]
Dana A. Williams
And I'm going to tell you in the beginning what happened, and then I'm going to spend the whole novel, like, walking you through how details are. Yes.
- [19:48]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, totally. Okay. So you. Part of your process in making this book, you've been working on this book actively, or at least you started the interviews 20 years ago?
- [19:59]
Dana A. Williams
Almost.
- [20:00]
Tracy Thomas
Almost.
- [20:00]
Dana A. Williams
First interview, I think, was I. Now I can't remember if it was 20, 2005 or 2008. I'll.
- [20:07]
Tracy Thomas
I think you said 2008 in the acknowledgments.
- [20:09]
Dana A. Williams
I thought. I thought 2008, but then when you said 20, I thought, like, was it 2005?
- [20:14]
Tracy Thomas
But I'm sorry, I just sort of, like, said 20. It's not accurate.
- [20:17]
Dana A. Williams
It's close.
- [20:18]
Tracy Thomas
17 close. It definitely felt like it to be. You had the idea for this book yes, even before that. So this book has been percolating in your mind for 30 almost years?
- [20:28]
Dana A. Williams
Easily. Easily.
- [20:30]
Tracy Thomas
And you started. You interviewed Toni Morrison in 2008, the first time. You talked to her a few other times throughout the book or throughout your process? My question is, was it difficult or how important was it for you to get a full picture of her? Which sometimes means including some unflattering pieces of her process? I would say there are scenes in the book where I was like, ooh, Tony seems, like, not so nice.
- [21:00]
Dana A. Williams
Like.
- [21:01]
Tracy Thomas
Like, that's not how I would like to be spoken to. And so I'm wondering, like, you're working on this thing. She's clearly a figure that is important to the work that you do as a professor of African American literature. Like, she is a figure. She is a figurehead. But also, you're writing about her as a human. So how are you balancing sort of like, I've met this woman, I've spoken to this woman, but also, I've got to get it all. I can't hold back on this.
- [21:26]
Dana A. Williams
Yeah, that was tough. I admit that I worried a little bit about it. Not because I thought that she would try to influence the book, but there were some things where there was no explanation. And I would ask her for the explanation, and sometimes I got it and sometimes I didn't. So I would find, for instance, in the archives, titles of books that she clearly had worked on. And it started out as an interestingly collaborative kind of process, right? Where I said, like, hey, here's the whole list. And we're initially talking, and she's like, I don't know that I have a whole list of every book that I edited, but I'm going to work on getting one. And then I send her titles, and then we kind of work on the list collaboratively. And sometimes she'd laugh and say, oh, my goodness, I forgot about that one. And there would be other times where she would say, no, that's not my book. And I'm like, yeah, that's your book. Like, I have, like, 18 folders of correspondence that suggests that this is your book. And she's like, nope, not my book. And I'm like, why are you saying this isn't your book? Like, you have to tell me something. Is it that you inherited from someone else? Because she was also very clear. Like, I didn't like every book. So let's be clear. Sometimes I. This was a job. This wasn't just, I get to pick and do whatever I wanted to do. So I was Concerned at different points about what that process would look like, like, how I would tell that story. And what I decided ultimately is to let the archive tell the story, to say, listen, there's correspondence that suggests that she worked on this, but she suggested otherwise. And then I think I relied so much on the goodwill that we had established as I was working through the process, that it overshadowed, like, concerns I had about what levels of influence she might try to have. I was clear, and I think she was clear that the book would be what it was and that I would tell the full, robust picture. She never intimated at all that she would want me to do anything except for that. But for sure, we talked about telling both sides of the story. So more often than not, I would see a copy of what she had sent to someone and then I would see the copy that the person had sent in response. In those instances where all of those things weren't in the archives at Columbia, I tried to make the trip to wherever that person's archives were. So for the June Jordan correspondence, I made sure that I saw June Jordan's work at Harvard and Morrison's work. So I could tell that story in two ways, because that was one of those kind of contentious. Yeah, back and forth for Toni Cade Bambara, which was a beautiful relationship. I also went to Spelman to see if I missed anything from the archives that were Random Houses archives at Columbia. But then there were also those moments where I had to rely completely on Morrison because there was no correspondence. Because in the end, when they were nearing completion, where there would be like small little details that are back and forth, Bambara would stay there, or Bambara lived in Manhattan and would just come to the office. So all of those things were a part of the process for like, trying to make this book in a way with a level of integrity and transparency. And I try to be very transparent, which is like, why that kind of non traditional acknowledgments that was trying to be a chapter, but didn't really want to be a chapter either. So it was like either going to be a postlude. And there's this beautiful thing that Toni K. Bambara does, I think for maybe Gorilla My Love, she calls it a sorta preface, like S O R T A. And that's why I was like, this is a sort of acknowledgments.
- [25:10]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, that's because the transparency, they are sort of acknowledgments. I noticed, because I love to read the acknowledgments. And I was like, first of all these acknowledgments are long. And that's always. I always flag that when it's not someone's first book. Because usually if it's your first book, you write really long acknowledgments. But the more books you write, it's sort of like. Like, okay, thanks to the archive, thanks to librarians, thanks to my partner and my family. Love you. By editor. Gotta go. And yours. I was like, this is like 10 pages. Something's happening here. So, people, when you read the book, don't skip the ac.
- [25:42]
Dana A. Williams
Don't skip the acknowledgments.
- [25:43]
Tracy Thomas
It's important information in there. Okay, how about this question about Toni Morrison? Did you get a sense of how she was different or. Or the same as other editors of the time? Because so many of the things that come up in the book, like, you know, helping with the title or talking about what kind of press the person should do for their book, all of that, to me, feels very much like what editors do today and now. And that's the world that I'm familiar with. But in the 70s and 80s, was some of this stuff different? Was she trailblazing or was she just doing the job of an editor? And that's just the job of an editor?
- [26:24]
Dana A. Williams
I think a little bit of both. So there were not as many editors who had to work in multiple spaces as Morrison, in part because there weren't that many black editors. So the work that she had to do to make sure that she kept a firm footing in the black world. So she would know which black magazines, which black theater. Oh, not theater. Book review critics she needed to engage. Which black academics she needed to engage. Because she was also clear that book adoptions made, like, a very big difference. And because she didn't have a list as a new editor, she had to rely on friends to say, who's got some really great manuscripts out here? And so those HBCU circles were so critical. So most white editors didn't have that as a thing that they also had to do. But then there was also the matter of interpretation where she wanted to make sure that what she was trying to convey in a book showed up in the COVID design. So, you know, there are these periods when she jokes about, you know, the design team, like, wanting her to go away because they're the book designers. Like, right, I'm designing this book. This is my job. I understand it. And what you would typically see would be almost like an editorial fact sheet where you say, this is what the book is about. This is what you want to try to convey. And she was that type of person who was really like, you gotta read the whole book, or let me tell you what this book needs to do. And then also, you need to make sure that this book doesn't look like another book that I had. Because she was aware of the fact that, you know, black writers were going to be either pitted against each other or lumped together. And she wanted to ensure, especially for those black books, books by black writers, that she had that separation so everyone could get the kind of attention that they needed to get. But the thing that I think distinguished her the most was the fact that Random House still ran their acquisitions by committee. So almost everywhere else, you had to convince people to let you acquire a book. Whereas at Random House. And I said by committee before, I should have said not by committee.
- [28:35]
Tracy Thomas
Right.
- [28:35]
Dana A. Williams
If an editor likes the book, the editor could say, here's what I think this book can do. Here is the idea for it. Here I have a table of contents and a couple of sample chapters. Here's the market. And she had the kind of freedom to be able to do that. And then she also had the benefit of being a high profile writer. By the time Song of Solomon is released. She has a reputation as a writer that is really doing a lot of work for Big Random, even as she's publishing at Little Random.
- [29:08]
Tracy Thomas
So for people who don't know, Big Random is Random House the publishing house, and Little Random is Random House the imprint.
- [29:15]
Dana A. Williams
That's right. So she's at Knopf.
- [29:17]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, she's. She's publishing as a writer at knomf, which is Big Random under the Big Random umbrella. But she's editing at Little Random.
- [29:26]
Dana A. Williams
And how unique was that for her to have an editor on one floor and then she is actually editing on another floor floor.
- [29:33]
Tracy Thomas
That's so crazy.
- [29:34]
Dana A. Williams
So there were some things that she was able to do that made her a unique editor. And then otherwise, when it just came to the kind of questions that you ask as an editor to make sure that things are as solid as possible were, I think, fairly typical of this was editing in the 60s and 70s.
- [29:52]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. So Toni Morrison came up with the title for this book.
- [29:56]
Dana A. Williams
Yes.
- [29:57]
Tracy Thomas
Can you tell us that story? It's in the acknowledgments. But. But I loved it. So will you tell us?
- [30:02]
Dana A. Williams
I will. I'm happy to. I had interacted with Ms. Orson both formally and informally at this point for, you know, more than 10 years. And that's the story of the book. And in the sense that when I started it, I thought, I'm not quite ready to do this full time because I am doing some other things. And I had become chair of English at the same time. And, you know, I was involved with the College Language Association. So I'm, you know, naively thinking I can do everything. I'm under 40, 45. I'm Superwoman. Like, rude awakening, right? So it gets to the point where we've talked so much about this book, and she's very close friends with the person who's my mentor, Eleanor Traylor. And so I don't think it's an exaggeration that I was probably with them four or five times a year.
- [30:53]
Tracy Thomas
Okay.
- [30:54]
Dana A. Williams
And because I was so close to Eleanor and they were such good friends, typically they were thick as thieves, so they were, like, always together. So it gave me this kind of informal opportunity where if she said something about the book to me, then certainly I'm going to talk to her about it. Or if I could tell that she was in a particularly good mood and I had some questions that I wanted to ask, I would. So she knows what's happening with a book. I go to Dr. T's for this new Year's open house that she usually has, like, from 10 in the morning until, like, 10 the next morning. And she says, you know, she sends me upstairs for something that she knows that Morrison's up there, so she's also, like, going to surprise me. And I go, oh, gee whiz. So now I'm at the position, the position where I'm actually trying to dodge Toni Morrison, like. And that's. That's. That's the beauty of my life at this point, that I am trying to avoid a writer that I'm working on because I've not made as much progress as I want it to make, which is why I told the story before about, like, all of these other things are happening in my life. And she said, so how are things going? Like, you know, we make small talk. We do the Happy New Year. Like, how's this? And then she brings up the subject, like, so how. How are things going with the book? And I'm embarrassed because it's not done. And 10 years have passed almost. And I say, oh, I've come up with a title because we had talked about titles before and how hard titles are and how she had gotten into arguments with, you know, with writers about titles and titles. You know, that's what gets the person to pick up the book. They look at the COVID and then they See the title? So I'm like, I got the title. The house that Tony built at random. And she goes, smart, but too long. Yeah. So now I'm crestfallen because I got, like, my one victory is that you have this title. Yeah, My one victory is Now I don't have a title, apparently. And then she just sits quietly for probably three or four seconds, and she says, tony at random. And I go, tony at random. And she says, tony at random. And we kind of look up in the air, and we look around Tony at random. And we're testing it out to see whether or not it has this kind of rhythm. And we both realized that it was a Tony at random. And then I go, wait a minute. I can't call you Tony. Because I said, I can't call you. You know. You know, I'm bumbling, you know, like, Ms. Morrison, like, I can't do it. I was like. I said, so you're telling me I can call you Tony? And she says, chloe doesn't have the kind of ring or something like that. Like, it. Well, no one would know if you said Chloe.
- [33:31]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [33:31]
Dana A. Williams
And we laugh. And so at that point, I say, okay, Tony at random. So I stuck with it, even as, like, some of my friends who are writers are saying, your editor is not gonna let you keep that. It's an insider's title. And this is the insider's book. Yeah.
- [33:49]
Tracy Thomas
Did your editor push back? No, I was gonna say, I think it's, like, one of the best titles this year. I mean, I think that the package, the title and the COVID Yes, they do. What needs to be done. Like, I don't think there's a question, because also, I don't know that people are picking up this book unless they know who Tony is. You know what I mean? It's not like this is a book that, like, someone random is going to be like, oh, I saw this book and it was called Tony at Random. And I was really curious about, like, it's for people who know who Toni Morrison is. It's for people who love Toni Morrison. And so it's not anyways not to jump.
- [34:26]
Dana A. Williams
Yeah. I thought it was going to be a pushback. And. And I for sure, they said, no, this is an insider's title. And I said, well, we'll do the work with the COVID And then I said, well, I'm open to thinking about other titles, but let me tell you why. And once I told them the story, they were like, oh, this is easy. Yeah, you can't easy.
- [34:46]
Tracy Thomas
You're gonna, you're gonna just disregard Tony Morrison's title?
- [34:51]
Dana A. Williams
Who are you again? About editorship? Yeah. The funny thing about the COVID though too is I felt like some of the writers as I was working with the design team, I thought, like, I am not going to be that person. I am not going to argue. These people know their jobs. They do it really well. And then when I saw the first cover that they sent to me, I said no.
- [35:13]
Tracy Thomas
I tell authors all the time.
- [35:16]
Dana A. Williams
Dead on.
- [35:16]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [35:17]
Dana A. Williams
Like, yeah. And she has to dominate the COVID and we'll figure out how to work the editorial stuff. So thanks to the COVID design team for like the chalk red app and circling the editorship.
- [35:30]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah, I love it. Okay, we're gonna take a quick break and then we'll be right back. Okay. Let me just tell you this from first hand experience. If you're starting a new business, that can be incredibly intimidating. When I first started this podcast, there seemed to be about a hundred million different things that I had to learn and figure out on my own. That's why I know how important it is to find the right business tool to help you get things done. Not only to get things done, but to make it simpler for millions of businesses. That tool is Shopify. Shopify powers 10% of all E commerce in the United States. Shopify has world class expertise in everything from managing inventory to international shipping, to processing returns and more. Whether you're a big brand or starting your first business, they make it feel approachable from day one. With hundreds of ready to use templates, Shopify helps you build a beautiful online store to match your beautiful brand. And they even help you get the word out. Like you have a big fancy marketing team behind you. If you're ready to sell, then you're ready for Shopify. Turn your big business idea into With Shopify on your side, sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com the stacks. Go to shopify.com thestacks shopify.com thestacks hey friends, it is I, your host, Tracy Thomas. If you've been enjoying today's episode of the Stacks, but you're thinking, gosh, one episode a week is just not enough. I've got two places that you should check out to keep these bookish vibes going. The Stacks Pack on Patreon and my newsletter unstacked on Substack. The Sax Pack is where the community lives. We're talking book club meetups, a private discord chat, our year long mega challenge plus members get a bonus episode every month. It is a great way to support me and the crew and for you to connect with other readers. Over on Unstacked, I keep the conversation going twice a week. On Monday you get my grown up show and Tell, which is basically where I tell you about all the things I loved and hated in the last week. And then on Fridays you get something special. Sometimes it's a bonus episode, sometimes it's an installment of my Non Fiction Files. There is both a free and a paid option over on Substack plus right now through September 22nd. If you join in either place, you can get my non fiction reading guide 30 book recommendations of fantastic nonfiction just for you. If you're looking to meet other book lovers. If you want to support this black woman run independent podcast. If you just want more of this of me yelling at you, come hang out with me on patreon@patreon.com the stacks and subscribe to my newsletter at Tracy Thomas substack.com hey everybody, I'm back to tell you about Lumi Gummies. Imagine if edibles just made you feel good instead of too high, consistent, mellow and super delicious, Lumi Gummies are specifically designed to make you feel good, not stone. Whether you're looking for an end of day de stressor, a midday mood boost or help getting the best sleep ever, Lumi Gummies has a strain that is right for you. As you all know, I am a reader. Reading is my job. I also really like to sleep and both of those things seem to be getting harder and harder as I deal with gestures wildly the rest of the world. Microdosing Gummies can be a real game changer. If you want to curl up, if you want to let everything else melt away, if you want to focus in on a good story, these gummies can help. Lumi Gummies are available nationwide. Go to lumigummies.com that's L U M I gummies.com and use the code the stacks for 30 off your order. Again, that's L-U-M-I-Gummies.com code the stacks lumigummies.com code the stacks okay, we are back. I did not prepare you for this, but we do something here called Ask the Stacks where someone writes in and they're looking for a book recommendation. They tell us a little bit about their reading life and then we have to give them one to three recommendations. So I'm going to read this now. All right. It comes from Nishell and they say much like yourself, much like me I enjoy non fiction. Give me a memoir or a true crime and I'm in. However, I have read so many of your book recommendations in these genres that I feel like there's nothing great left. And then she listed a list of like 20 titles. I just picked a few for you. All Heavy by Kia say Lehman, Hunger by Roxane Gay, Eloquent Rage by Brittany Cooper, Born a Crime by Trevor Noah, how the Word is Passed by Clint Smith. And they said anything similar to these titles would be great. So that's sort of not that helpful for you, Dana, because you probably don't know my entire non fiction reading life, but if you can think of any great non fiction, you can have a moment to think. I can. I can give some of mine if that's helpful. If you want a second or if you something popped into your head, you can go first.
- [40:39]
Dana A. Williams
So you probably already have this one on the list, but it's relatively new. I do think Ta Nehisi's the Message is still a great nonfiction read. The new book by Aaliyah Bundles, Joy Goddess about Aliyah Walker gives us a different read of the Harlem Renaissance that we haven't seen, which I think is just a really great addition. And then for those writers out there, I am going to unfairly say the book How We do it, which Jericho Brown edited about craft and how to tell stories. I think those would be my three nonfictions. I don't think you can go wrong with either of those.
- [41:25]
Tracy Thomas
I love that. The second one you mentioned I've never heard of. So I gotta go look that up.
- [41:29]
Dana A. Williams
It comes out the part of the reason it's coming out in a couple of weeks, if not this week. Part of the reason that I know it is because I'm looking at kind of comp titles as and just paying attention to books that are coming out as I'm reading blurbs about anticipation kind of pre release date for my and everything that Aaliyah Bundles has ever done I've loved. So I've had a sneak peek at that. And I think this book, especially about the Harlem Renaissance and telling the story in a way that we haven't seen it before through the eyes of Aaliyah Walker. Love it.
- [42:00]
Tracy Thomas
Okay. So exciting. Okay, here are my picks for you, Nichelle. First and foremost on your long list, you did not include either Patrick Raden, Key Keefe or John Krakauer. I talk about these men all the time. They're two of my faves. So if you have not read them, obviously that. But I feel like Maybe you have and you just didn't include them, or maybe you didn't like them, which is fine. It's your business, not mine. So my three official recommendations. One is a book called the Girl who Smiled Beads by Clementine y Maria. It's. It's her memoir on her childhood being a six year old child who has to flee Rwanda during the genocide in the 1990s. So it's, it is not true crime, but it is memoir and it does have some of those intense elements that, you know, that I love. So that's one. The next one, I would say is this book by Julia Shears that I've talked about a lot. It's called A Thousand Lives. It's about Jonestown, but it's told in a way that really focuses on the people who were victims of Jim Jones and his manipulation and his corruption. Talks a lot about the black families that were involved, which often get erased from that story. And then the third one I have for you is a brand new book. It's called welcome to the Dollhouse by Rich Cohen, and it's about the Jennifer Dulo story. I'd never heard of Jennifer Doulos. Apparently this was huge News. Like in 2019. I don't know where I was. I don't know what I was doing. I missed it. But she was a housewife in Connecticut. She was going through a contentious divorce. She drops her kids off at school, never to be heard from or seen again. The husband is arrested for the crime. He's got a girlfriend, a side piece, whatever, she's arrested too. It's very dramatic. But what I liked about the book is that he kind of goes back into Jennifer Doulos's story. She's from a Jewish family, very wealthy, a socialite, but she was also a playwright, but then kind of turned her back on the artistic side so that she could be a rich person. And it's just, it's really interesting about race and class. And I, I really enjoyed it. So those would be my three recommendations. If you read any of our books, let us know. And other folks, you can email us at Ask the stacks, the stacks podcast.com to get your book recommendations read on the air. Okay, back to you, Dana. We always start here when we get to the Stacks Questions. Two books you love, one book you hate.
- [44:16]
Dana A. Williams
Oh, that's the book I love. Easy. It's the one book that if I could only read one book for the rest of my life, it would be Ernest Gaines Is the Lesson Before Dying. Okay, and quick story about It. I grew up in Louisiana, small town, almost uncritical of the political realities that we have. So when I read this book and I go, you know, we really have to reconsider the death penalty. I literally become like an anti death penalty advocate after reading this book. And then I have this conversation with Ernest Gaines about it over dinner. A friend in Louisiana when I was teaching at LSU knew that I loved Ernest Gaines. And we were having dinner and I told him, like, the work that you do that's anti death penalty. And so he says, I never made a decision about that in that book. Like, you get to take from that book what you want to take from that book. He's. Of course, I am against it, definitely, but the book never insists. And I thought he's absolutely right. And the brilliance and the genius of that book wizard, the way that he captures humanity, is so critical that I read it as often as I can. So the book that I love, Easy.
- [45:28]
Tracy Thomas
Two books you love. You got to get me one more you love.
- [45:30]
Dana A. Williams
All right. Oh, Zora Neale Hurston. Zara's or Watching God, is probably the other one that I could read over and over again. I feel so strongly about what Hurston was able to do in that book that I gotta like. There are so many other books that I would. That would compete with it, especially, like, contemporary books. I love anything by Jesmyn Ward, anything by TRA Jones, but I'll stick with those.
- [45:57]
Tracy Thomas
Okay.
- [45:57]
Dana A. Williams
Almost. Almost Mount Rushmore. Like, you have to be deceased for me to have the conversation.
- [46:01]
Tracy Thomas
Okay. Okay. That's.
- [46:02]
Dana A. Williams
That saves me. And then I love Percival Everett.
- [46:10]
Tracy Thomas
Okay.
- [46:11]
Dana A. Williams
And so James would be pretty close on my list. Erasure would be on my wrist, on my. High on my list. I can't love. I am not Sidney Poitier.
- [46:22]
Tracy Thomas
Oh, okay.
- [46:23]
Dana A. Williams
What about all of the rest of the. I don't know. And that's.
- [46:26]
Tracy Thomas
Are you saying this is your hate? Are you saying can't love is your hate? Are you doing the thing where you can't say that you hate a book because you can say it here.
- [46:33]
Dana A. Williams
It's a safe space. I want to say I can't love it. And I think it's because I also. I will say I did not like, I hated Sidney Poitier's biography.
- [46:44]
Tracy Thomas
Okay.
- [46:45]
Dana A. Williams
I just thought it wasn't good. I was disappointed in every way. Disappointed with the writing, disappointed with the editing, disappointed with the storytelling. I don't know what happened. And I'm wondering whether or not that book as biography disturbed me in such a way that I couldn't get even. I couldn't get even the fiction version of it.
- [47:06]
Tracy Thomas
So interesting.
- [47:07]
Dana A. Williams
I'm gonna go with the Sidney Poitier instead of the Percival Everett.
- [47:10]
Tracy Thomas
Okay. We'll take it personal. You're off the hook. You mentioned that there's some recent authors that you love. What's the last great book that you read?
- [47:19]
Dana A. Williams
James.
- [47:20]
Tracy Thomas
James.
- [47:20]
Dana A. Williams
Smartest book I read in 2024.
- [47:25]
Tracy Thomas
Yes, agreed.
- [47:26]
Dana A. Williams
I can't even. Because it's about Hook Finn, but it's not about Hook Finn. It's absolutely about James. Like, what he does with language and kind of philosophy of language and then storytelling and surprise. Like it's a book that's no longer the book that it's supposed to be about. Easily smartest book I read in 2024.
- [47:45]
Tracy Thomas
What are you reading right now?
- [47:48]
Dana A. Williams
I just finished Sunny Hoston's Summer on Highland Beach.
- [47:52]
Tracy Thomas
Okay.
- [47:53]
Dana A. Williams
You know, because I was on vacation myself. And then I am reading for either work or pleasure or some combination thereof. Ruha Benjamin's Imagination. Because I think imagination is just so important. In the time that we are in, I think the way out of this kind of political fray that we find ourselves in really will be imagining in the same way that somebody thought that this should be a country establishes a nation state, we are going to have to think. Think that this place can be something other than it is. So looking for some inspiration from books that really are about imagination and thinking about an alternate world.
- [48:33]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. Love. What are some books you're looking forward to reading? They don't have to be new books. It could just be things you've been, like, wanting to get to. Or they could be forthcoming titles.
- [48:42]
Dana A. Williams
I am embarrassed to say that I have not finished Honoree's book on love songs. That's what it is.
- [48:51]
Tracy Thomas
Oh, the fiction. The fiction. I have the new one right here. Sorry.
- [48:54]
Dana A. Williams
Yeah. So that's one I'm looking forward to reading. Yep. The. The latest honoree, Jefferson. I'm looking forward to reading, but I also have to make sure that I finish the love songs of W.E.B. du Bois. And I was moving through it fairly quickly. And it was right at the same time also that I was getting pressure from my editor. Like, girl, get these pages. So now I'm looking forward to, like, in this. This the season where I am now doing promos for the book to getting back to it. It's almost a reward that I've held out for myself to finish the love songs of W.E.B. du Bois. I really enjoyed and want to reread Jamila Minnick's Moonrise Over Jessup. This is. It's almost an unfair question because I read for the Stone Book Awards.
- [49:41]
Tracy Thomas
Oh, what's that?
- [49:42]
Dana A. Williams
In the Massachusetts Historical association, their African American museum has a competition where all African American literature and culture books can be submitted for an award. And it's, it's the largest prize. It's $50,000. It's the largest prize for a non fiction book in African American literary and cultural studies. And I have about 25 books that I have to read.
- [50:08]
Tracy Thomas
Got it.
- [50:08]
Dana A. Williams
So I want to talk about them, but I'm not supposed to.
- [50:10]
Tracy Thomas
Okay, I will not push you. What is a book you love to recommend to people?
- [50:17]
Dana A. Williams
Song of Solomon. Toni Morrison's Song of Solomon, I think is beautifully done, a great story. I think in terms of teaching, it's my favorite to teach. I think paradise is her best book.
- [50:33]
Tracy Thomas
Okay, well, let me ask you this, Dana. We do one Toni Morrison book book a year on this podcast since the inception, since 2018. We're doing God Help the Child. It is the eighth book. I believe it'll be our eighth book that we're doing. It's her last book, last novel that she wrote. I gave you an option for God Help the Child, Paradise, Home and Love, because those are the remaining four. And you picked God Help the Child. So tell me why you picked this and not Paradise?
- [51:05]
Dana A. Williams
I picked God Help the Child because I think it's easier to talk about. She said it was the one that was the hardest to write. So I accepted that challenge because she hadn't done a contemporary voice before. I also think it bookends the bluest eye very well. I read it as Beauty becomes what Pecola could have been.
- [51:23]
Tracy Thomas
Okay.
- [51:24]
Dana A. Williams
Under a different set of circumstances. I think paradise is her best work because of its really sophisticated critique of American exceptionalism. So for a broad public audience, I thought God Help the Child is one that's accessible but also has a really rich kind of story. As a scholar, I've written about paradise and Immersi as these kind of anti America exceptionalism books. So I just think they're more accessible.
- [51:55]
Tracy Thomas
Okay. I'm just so fascinated by that because usually people pick like whatever one is their favorite that's. That's left, I guess. I don't know. I hate to say it like that.
- [52:04]
Dana A. Williams
It was. No, no. It was a tough. Courtney and I, Courtney at HarperCollins and I, like, we had long conversation about whether or not I should do paradise or God Help the Child.
- [52:11]
Tracy Thomas
I just assumed you would do paradise because to me that was like, of the four left, that's the one people talk about the most. So when you said God help the child, I was like, okay, I love Dana. I don't know what she's up to over there, but like there's something going on that I'm very excited about about.
- [52:25]
Dana A. Williams
That was it. That was literally like, if she accepted the challenge of writing this contemporary book, then what would be the challenge for me to think about it in a way that hasn't been talked about before.
- [52:36]
Tracy Thomas
Okay, so then let me ask you this now back. You've now told us the one that you think is her best, which is Paradise. You've told us the one that you love to teach the most, which is Song of Solomon. Which one is your personal favorite?
- [52:47]
Dana A. Williams
Beloved. Okay, yeah. Beloved, in part because that's a get to come into herself in such a beautiful way. One of the things that I loved about Morrison that I also think is true of Toni Cade Bambara is a belief in community in such a way that you don't have to kill the men. The men aren't bad. Like, and that's how I grew up and that's how I live my life. I am absolutely pro woman, but I am so pro black people and black institutions that books where we get to be in harmony and not over romanticized. But the fact that Paul D. Helps her to see herself in a way is so important to me because it could have been one of the women. It could have been anybody. But the fact that you have these black men and black women interacting with each other and they're not perfect characters. They make mistakes. They show the three dimensionality of black people. But I love what happened in Beloved. The self awareness and that the self awareness can't come without a partner. Yeah, I just love that in a book.
- [53:55]
Tracy Thomas
Okay, I'm going to ask you a question that's not technically on the questionnaire. It's really more for me personally. But I've got you here and I'm going to do it. So one of my big goals this year in my personal reading life is to read more classics. The term I'm using is sort of loose, but part of the inspiration was actually Toni Morrison's lecture on goodness because she talks about all of these books by like Charles Dickens and things that I just never read. And so I really wanted to focus on going back and reading canonical texts, I guess, if you will. You know, everyone defines their own canon. But it was important to me to not just read black literature. Right. Like I wanted to. I. You Know, I've never read east of Eden, and it felt like that's something probably Toni Morrison has read and has thoughts about. Right. So I want to ask you, as far as being, as black classics go, what is a classic that you think people should read that's maybe slightly under the radar? So not. Their Eyes are Watching God, not Invisible man, not Beloved, but something that you think is amazing that doesn't get the shine that it deserves?
- [54:58]
Dana A. Williams
Leon Forrest. Two Wings to Veil My Face is his most successful book, but it's also just a really beautiful read. It has, like, this kind of gospel music feel to it. It's got a story that you can maintain and sustain. It's got all of Leon Forrest's beautiful language and humor. So There's a Tree More Ancient than Eton is his first novel, which is, like, highly experimental that Ralph Ellison wrote the introduction to. And Ellison didn't blurb anybody. So the fact that Ellison loved this book, you know, was just such a significant boon for Morrison as an editor, but it's not my favorite. Two Wings to Veil My Face is the Leon Forrest novel that I think should move to canon. Divine Days by Forrest is important, but it's 1100 pages, and you're not gonna.
- [55:51]
Tracy Thomas
Can't.
- [55:51]
Dana A. Williams
Yeah, you just. Exactly.
- [55:52]
Tracy Thomas
It's not gonna happen for me.
- [55:55]
Dana A. Williams
I wonder whether or not people are reading Percival Everett's Erasure as much.
- [56:01]
Tracy Thomas
We did a book club here two years ago or last year, Like, a while ago, Almost years ago.
- [56:07]
Dana A. Williams
Erasure, to me, is a classic that is under studied. I'm trying to go a little bit earlier.
- [56:13]
Tracy Thomas
Okay.
- [56:15]
Dana A. Williams
I would say for the Harlem Renaissance period, for poetry. I'm trying to diversify my genres here. James Weldon Johnson's got trombone.
- [56:32]
Tracy Thomas
Okay.
- [56:33]
Dana A. Williams
A beautiful reinterpretation of seven biblical stories that he just gives. Like, we all know the creation story, Adam and Eve and the Apple. Like, what James Weldon Johnson does with the creation is just like. It's almost like, you know, there's this line in Paula's Dunbar, like, when Melinda sings that, you know, the. Like, everybody should just stop singing.
- [56:55]
Tracy Thomas
Like. Right. It's good.
- [56:57]
Dana A. Williams
Yeah. Everybody thinks they can do something, like just stop. That's how I feel. Like. Like King James ought to be. Shame.
- [57:03]
Tracy Thomas
Right.
- [57:04]
Dana A. Williams
Because what James Weldon Johnson does with the creation, like, this should be the standard. So definitely James Weldon Johnson. And then I want to cheat a little and just talk more broadly about narratives of enslavement by non Christian writers.
- [57:22]
Tracy Thomas
Okay.
- [57:23]
Dana A. Williams
All we get from the slave narratives or the emancipatory narratives, Frederick Douglass, Harriet Jacobs, like, all important. Like, really important for us to think about for a number of reasons. But there were a number of narratives by Muslim writers where we see their stories differently, told from the kind of standard abolitionist fair. So I would say all of this emancipatory or liberatory narratives about slavery by writers who were Muslim, like IBN said, so that we can begin to imagine what that period was like from a non Christian perspective. It just changes the way that we read. So I want us to really think about that period of enslavement differently once we look at writers who are Muslim writers.
- [58:16]
Tracy Thomas
I love that. I'm so glad I asked. So glad I speared off the script. Yes. Okay, back to the script, though. What's the last book that made you cry?
- [58:25]
Dana A. Williams
Tiara Jones's American Marriage.
- [58:29]
Tracy Thomas
What's the last book that made you angry?
- [58:31]
Dana A. Williams
A very short history of the Israel Palestine conflict.
- [58:35]
Tracy Thomas
Okay, what about. What's a book that you feel proud to have read?
- [58:40]
Dana A. Williams
WB Du Bois's Black Reconstruction.
- [58:43]
Tracy Thomas
Good one. Okay, I'm sure this. I'm sure you're going to tell me that you don't have this, but I'm going to ask anyways. What is a book that you're ashamed or embarrassed that you haven't read?
- [58:56]
Dana A. Williams
Moby Dick. Oh, okay. Okay.
- [58:58]
Tracy Thomas
I love this for you. Me neither.
- [59:00]
Dana A. Williams
Like, I feel like I should have, but I have not.
- [59:03]
Tracy Thomas
Me neither. It's okay, you're safe. That's a book a lot of people say that they hate. That's like the number one most hated book with the two books you love, one book you hate. Question. What is your problematic favorite book?
- [59:16]
Dana A. Williams
I feel like I got a lot of these problematic favorite is To Kill a Mockingbird and A Time to Kill.
- [59:28]
Tracy Thomas
Love the Time to Kill movie. Oh, my gosh, I forgot about that. Is there a book you think people would be surprised to know that you love?
- [59:40]
Dana A. Williams
I think people are surprised about how committed I am to the Alex Cross series.
- [59:48]
Tracy Thomas
Okay. I was surprised when you were listing some of your pleasure reads. I was like, whoa, did not see this coming. So I think you're probably right. Okay, here's my last question for you. If you could require the current President of the United States to read one book, what would it be?
- [60:08]
Dana A. Williams
This is so hard because, like, Willy really read it, but Black Reconstruction. But that's dangerous, right?
- [60:17]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. It might be like a playbook for him, right?
- [60:20]
Dana A. Williams
That's what I'm thinking. But so what would I make him read? It would be Lolita Tadame's Red river because I think he might actually read the fiction. It explains what happens when people who have been oppressed refuse to be oppressed any longer and they rebel. And people it's about government and it's based on the true story of the Colfax massacre in Louisiana. It's an older book, maybe 10, 15 years, but it really is the book about what happens when reconstruction doesn't work. People rebel, there will be violence. I might also get him to read that nonviolent stuff will get you killed because he needs to be clear that there is not a reality where people who are oppressed systemically will continue to take it. So it would be something that's a warning shot.
- [61:23]
Tracy Thomas
I love that we're recording this right now. The the week of the uprisings that are happening in la. I live in la. So that reminder of like we're not gonna take it. Yep, it feels extra on the nose this week. I think it probably will feel on the nose when this episode airs the first week of July, but who knows? Right now it that's really hitting home for me. Dear listeners, you can get Tony at random the Iconic Writers Legendary Editorship by Dana A. Williams wherever you get your books. As you are listening to this, I read from the page. I also listened to the audiobook she does. A fan. It's not Dana, but the I think her name is Deanna. Is that her name? Deanna? She does a fantastic job. I co sign both ways of reading the book. So if you're, if you're not sure the audiobook is a good option. And Dana will be back on July 30th for our discussion of Toni Morrison's God Help the Child. Dana, thank you so much for being here.
- [62:23]
Dana A. Williams
Thank you so much for the opportunity to talk about this and so many other wonderful books. I tell you, you got me thinking. Thanks for those recommendations.
- [62:30]
Tracy Thomas
Yes, thank you and everyone else. We will see you in the stacks. All right, y' all, that does it for us today. Thank you so much for listening and thank you again to Dana Williams for joining the podcast. I'd also like to say a huge thank you to Courtney Nobile for making today's episode possible. Remember, our book club pick for July is God Help the Child by Toni Morrison, which we will Discuss on Wednesday, July 30th with Dana A. Williams. If you love the show and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com the stacks to join the Stacks Pack and check out my newsletter at Tracy Thomas stack.com make sure you're subscribed to the Stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts and if you're listening through Apple Podcasts or Spotify, please leave us a rating and a review. For more from the Stacks, follow us on social media at the Stacks Pod, on Instagram threads and TikTok and check out our website at thestackspodcast.com Today's episode of the Stacks was edited by Christian Dwenyes with production assistance from Wia Frillo. Our graphic designer is Robin mcite and our team B music is from Tagirigis. The Stacks is created and produced by me, Tracy Thomas.
- [63:45]
Dana A. Williams
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