← The Stacks
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- [00:00]
A
Hi everybody, it's Tracy. I want to tell you about something new that I am offering this fall. I will be teaching an online class all about understanding Shakespeare. The course is five weeks long. It will begin on Wednesday, September 17th. It will go for the next five Wednesdays. It is a class geared toward giving you the tools and concepts you need to understand the work of William Shakespeare. I am so excited to teach this class. As you all know, I love Shakespeare's plays and we are going to be using two of my most beloved plays, Twelfth Night and Richard ii, to break down the crucial components of Shakespeare's work. Verse, antithesis and argument. So if this sounds like something you'd be interested in, head to the stacks podcast.com understanding-shakespeare the class is open now for all to enroll. There are limited spots, so grab your spots before it's too late.
- [00:53]
B
You know, it's interesting. Yesterday, it is the beginning of the semester this week and I had my first class meeting yesterday and it was like I could barely get to sleep afterwards. Like after spending two and a half hours with these brilliant, excited emerging writers who are grounded and who want to use their writing to to help people that they're deeply invested in it. And I was just like, oh, I knew I liked teaching, but I think I really underestimated how much it grounds me in reality.
- [01:22]
C
Teaching does that for me too. Or even just spending time with my kids, like, it sounds so trite, but just spending time with young people who are aware of what is going on in the world but don't yet have this sort of like nihilistic viewpoint that it cannot be solved.
- [01:48]
A
Welcome to the Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host, Tracy Thomas, and in today's episode I am joined by Saeed Jones and Maggie Smith. They're here to discuss their new book. It's called the People's Project. Poems, Essays and Art for Looking Forward. This book is a curated collection from Maggie and Saeed that includes the work of 27 writers that creates a community in book format. The book is intended to be a space where we can come together and try to hold on to what is important in these trying times today, Maggie said, and I talk about how they came to make this collection, why they feel it's important, and I make them hand out a few superlatives to the pieces in this collection. The Sax Book Club pick for September is the Lilac People by Milo Todd. We will be discussing the book on Wednesday, September 24th with Den Michelle Norris. Quick reminder, everything we talk about on each episode of the Stacks can be found in the link in the show notes. If you like this podcast and you want more Bookish content and community, consider joining the Stacks Pack on Patreon and subscribing to my newsletter unstacked on Substack. Each of these places offers some amazing perks, like bonus episodes, community conversation, book club meetups, and more if you're interested in supporting the show. If you're interested in getting a lot more Bookish takes, go to tracythomas.substack.com to join the newsletter and patreon.com the stacks to check out the Stacks Pack. Okay, now it's time for my conversation with the wonderful Saeed Jones and Maggie Smith. Okay, everybody, I. I have, like, a grin on my face because I just feel like this is one of the books of the year, emotionally. Like, it is the book that we've all sort of been waiting for. And to get to have both Saeed Jones and Maggie Smith on the podcast to talk about the People's Project feels sort of like a little bit of, like, bragging to me. Like, I'm just like, yeah, babe, I have them. We're gonna talk. So both of you, welcome. Stacks.
- [03:55]
B
Hi.
- [03:56]
C
Oh, my goodness. Thanks for having us.
- [03:58]
A
I'm so excited. I mean, Saeed's been here a few times. Maggie, you're a Stax virgin, but you know you're gonna pop that cherry, girl.
- [04:08]
C
It's a little early in the day. I'm here for it. I'm here for it.
- [04:14]
B
It's fun. It's like, my. My world's colliding. Tracy has become such a great friend over the years via the podcast, and I always see her when I'm in la. And of course, Maggie is like, my dear friend. So this is. It's funny. I was like, one of those, like, okay, we're doing an interview, wake up site. And then I was like, oh, it's Tracy. Okay.
- [04:31]
C
We're hanging with friends. We're hanging with friends.
- [04:34]
A
We're hanging with friends. And I, you know, I've read both of your other works, so it's also kind of fun to get to come to this, like, project together and to. I know you all are friends, but to think of you all now as collaborators is really exciting. And before we even get to that, we will one of you do the honors of sort of 30 seconds or so telling us what the People's Project is.
- [04:57]
C
Maybe it makes sense to start really quickly with just the genesis.
- [05:00]
A
Sure.
- [05:01]
C
Which is the book really came about organically as a series of conversations via phone, text and voice memo that Saeed and I were having, like, leading up to the election last year and in the immediate aftermath of the election and really just trying to sort out, like, okay, so what now? How do we move forward through this time and what do we do? And so actually, our shared editor, Jenny Hsu at Washington Square Press, after seeing some of our conversation unfold on the Internet, said, I think there's a book here. I think this is a bigger conversation than just the conversation between the two of you. Like, why don't we widen this? Am I remembering this correctly, Saeed?
- [05:53]
B
Absolutely. Yeah. I have. You know, I had just moved to Cambridge last September, and so, yeah, in those months, you know, I think part of it was, you know, the rhythm of living in a new place. And so, you know, you're checking in on your friends, you know, you know, in my case, back in Columbus, where.
- [06:10]
C
Maggie still lives, I missed you.
- [06:12]
B
Yeah, we missed each.
- [06:14]
C
You left me in a red stick date.
- [06:16]
B
Yeah, I was like, oh, girl. So, yeah, so, you know, so I was texting and we were just in touch anyway. But, yeah, I. I remember it went from just like, oh, I miss you, and, oh, you know, I wish we were at harvest having pizza and our favorite cocktails. And then I just have these memories of walking back and forth between my apartment and campus and the texts and the voice memos started getting more and more earnest. Like, it just. We really were. It was just like, what's the plan? What are we going to do? I remember, for example, after the election, and everyone goes through this in the United States every election year, Thanksgiving comes barreling at you and, you know, given, you know, you're kind of like, okay, so what do I want to do? Am I going to do this business as usual? Do I even want to see people who voted against my life, against my. My. My children's futures? You know, and so it just. There was so much energy, and I know we all had it. And Jenny Xu is such a joy to work with. How fortunate we are just to have an editor we trust and who, you know, is observant because we kind of had our heads down. And she was like, I think this is. Yeah, this is a project. This is a project. That's where it started.
- [07:28]
A
I'm such a fan of Jenny's. I did not know Jenny by name, but I discovered that. That Jenny is the editor of, like, all my faves. And now I know Jenny by name because that's how it Happens for me with editors once. I sort of am like, oh, I'm noticing a trend and I'm reading the acknowledgments and I track it. And I'm like. Because she does Tiana Clark also. Yeah. Who also did the show this year. I'm like, all the poets who have come on are by way of Jenny. So shout out to Jenny. But. Okay, so let me go back. Now we have the origin. What is this. What is this book that people are. What is this project?
- [08:03]
B
Well, we call it a community and book form. It is an anthology featuring 27 writers, poets. We have some graphic artists as well. We sent them some prompts when we realized we wanted to do this book. And generally it was in a moment like this and really the era. Because we started thinking, this isn't just about the election. This isn't just about Project 2025. Let's think, like the next 50 years. And so we asked writers, you know, what is some wisdom that you're drawing from? It can come from your ancestors. It can come from your own experiences. It can come from maybe an exchange, like Maggie and I'm having. I'm thinking of like, Eula Biss is like. She's like, everyone should have a friend that studies fascism. You know, like, what are you drawing from to move forward. And that was it. And then we just started reaching out, and people just said, yes, I can do it or no. Fortunately, almost everyone we asked said yes. And they had six weeks and they didn't tell us what they were going to write. So we kind of. I mean, it really was like. And Maggie and I talked about this so much. It was like, we just reached out to writers and artists that we would reach out to anyway, you know, that we would say, can we go to dinner, girl? We gotta. We gotta figure this out. You know, and that. That's how the book came together.
- [09:32]
A
Are the people who are in the. In here, are they collectively your friends or are they. Some of them are like Saeed's people, and some of them are Maggie's people. And some are both.
- [09:42]
C
Yeah, there's a Venn diagram. Like, I think some. Some of them you were like, I want to reach out to these people. And some of them I knew and could have reached out to. And some of them I didn't know, but I'm a fan of as a reader. And I was like, yeah, if you can talk to that person, that would be great. Great. Because I would be cold emailing that person. And you can text them.
- [09:59]
A
Right?
- [09:59]
C
And. And probably vice versa. And then Jenny had a few contacts that she was like, I'd love to include this voice. And. And I was like, I don't know her, so if you could make that ask, that would be amazing. And so between the three of us and a Google Doc, we just kind of thought, like, who. Whose voices do we need to hear from right now? Like, who else? Who else would I love to have on a group chat just like, to tell me something that's going to make today or this week or this month or like, the next 30 minutes slightly more bearable? Because at the time when we were pulling this together, I mean, I realized, too, we were asking people to move incredibly quickly and to be really nimble with their thinking and feeling on paper at a time when a lot of us couldn't get out of bed without a lot of effort.
- [10:56]
B
Yeah. In fact, I just remembered that, you know, I'm. And I call it, like, lovingly bullying people. Like, from my time as a culture editor, I'm just like, marlon, you're gonna do this. Right? You know? Right. But at the time, I was in Bennington, Vermont, when we were first reaching out to, you know, to possible contributors, and it was when you and I had our conversation about Toni Morrison.
- [11:25]
A
Oh, yes.
- [11:25]
B
And. And her thoughts on the philosophy of goodness, which we did because we wanted it to come out the day of the inauguration. Right. Like, so. So, again, I mean, there's. There's real synergy here. I mean, it's really. This book was really birthed out of just how we were living. That sense of. I know that if I just stand here and take it on my own, I'm not going to last for very long, you know, And. And, you know, the three of us, we are smart people. Smart, deeply empathetic, deeply read people. But I think it's fair to say in the last few years, it's become very common to feel like I don't know enough. All the. All the wisdom that I have that I have been using to get me to this point in my life? I got to call in some new reserves, you know, and so I think that's just a pretty shared feeling right now.
- [12:14]
C
Oh, 100%. Like, where are the. Where are the resources that I just do not have? And I know they're out there, and they might be just two steps away or two people away from me.
- [12:25]
A
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I want to say a few things. One is thank you for including me as a smart person. The two of you. Like, truly an honor. I mean, I'll Take it. But, like, also, if anyone's listening and is like, maybe I wouldn't include her there. You're also right for people who are at home who have not read the book yet, I'm just going to do a quick, quick perusal of some of the people who appear as contributors who are also friends of this podcast. Because it. I mean, when I saw the list, I was like, oh, I know them.
- [12:57]
C
So.
- [12:58]
A
So Alexander Chi, we did his book for book club. Obviously, we talked about Tiana Clark, Kia Layman, Ashley C. Ford. I'm just quickly looking through. But so, so many. I mean, Hala Saeed, Mira Jacob, Imani Perry. I mean, it's just. It's a who's who of the stacks community. But also it now has become a list of who do I need to have on the podcast.
- [13:23]
B
Yes.
- [13:24]
A
After reading the book, I'm like, okay, let me just move this to the post.
- [13:28]
C
It.
- [13:28]
A
That's like, potential guests for the next year. So thank you for that. And I think, Saeed, to your point that you were making about, like, kind of feeling like, I can't do this alone or that I have. I only have so much that I have, and I need more. The way that your introduction is no way forward, but through, together, as it should be. And I just feel like if that's not sort of the heart and soul of this. Of this piece, I don't know what is. And it immediately goes into an essay from Alexander Chee. That is so good. It's so good.
- [14:06]
B
We literally talk about it every day.
- [14:08]
C
Every day. I'm just like, how do I. I can't get through the last two paragraphs of that essay ever without just openly weeping. It doesn't matter what I'm doing.
- [14:18]
A
I just didn't know that you could do that. Like, I just didn't know that was possible.
- [14:24]
B
And it's like two pages.
- [14:26]
A
It's nothing. It's like five words.
- [14:27]
B
And you're like, wait, it's barely two pages.
- [14:29]
A
It's barely two pages. And I. I mean, I will be really frank with the audience because I think that my listeners know me. And I went into this book being like, I'm gonna read this because Saeed's my friend, and, like, it's really short. And I'm gonna check. And I like, Jenny, I'm gonna just ch. Maggie, I had read your memoir, I think last year or two years ago. Two years ago. And I was like, yeah, I was like, I like the memoir. Like, I'm gonna check it out. But this is gonna kind of be, like, cutesy and corny, and I'm kind of just gonna be like, oh, okay, like, we need to work together. And, like, times are tough or whatever. Like, whatever those things are that feel rushed and, like, speaking to a moment. And I read that first essay, I immediately, I think, text you Saeed, and was like, what the fuck was that? And then I got, like. I got a little deeper in. I got to another essay, and I was like, oh, say this one's, like, really phenomenal. And then I got to the end of the book, and I think I sent you a note and was like, unfortunately, it's quite good. Like, I kind of went in thinking you were shook. I was. Because I just know how a lot of these things happen and a lot. And like, it's no shade to those books that are, like, super timely because we do need things in the moment that speak to the moment that maybe don't have legs in a month or maybe don't feel, like, complete or they just feel a little bit rushed or they feel like they're just scraping the surface. And we do need those things. And I read them, you know, like, I will read. I will read. Kamala Harris says 107 days. Even though I don't think it's going to be.
- [15:59]
B
Yeah, it's like the. It's like the topical book or the topical.
- [16:03]
C
Yeah, sure.
- [16:04]
A
And this is not that. I mean, it is, but I feel like there is a depth to this book and a depth to the work that when I went back and reread the introduction, I was like, sure, in 50 years, we're probably going to have a president that. That that introduction speaks to, because you don't actually name him. You say, like, this president, this moment. But, like, the. The texts, the writing, I mean, Mira Jacobs, hers is just so. I mean.
- [16:30]
C
Oh, goosebumps, right?
- [16:31]
A
And like. Like, there's just so many phenomenal pieces in here that are of this moment, but not for only this moment. So I guess the question, as a long lead up, is how did you either prompt or protect the work against feeling too urgent or too of 2024, 2025, did. As editors, did you have to do anything to make sure that it wasn't cutesy trite?
- [17:07]
B
I know what you mean. Well, you know, part of it is I've been. I worked as an executive culture editor for BuzzFeed for some time, you know, in one of my previous lives. And so I learned both, you know, how to assign something that needed to hit that moment. Can you get it to me this evening. You know, I Remember election night 2016. Isaac Fitzgerald, my friend, was the books editor, I was the culture editor. And by 9pm we were just sitting there in the newsroom while it was still going on with our laptops. And I remember texting, actually, or emailing Mira Jacob to be like, could you write about what it is to be a mother in this moment? So I know. I think part of it is over the years and Mirror actually is a great example. I think it's like I've built this Rolodex in my head of people that I just know I can trust, both because I've read their work, but also I've broken bread with them, like I said in the introduction. And I think, you know, so I think our, like, really the, the main editorial curation was who we reached out to, to be part.
- [18:15]
C
I was going to say the same thing.
- [18:17]
B
Yeah.
- [18:17]
C
We trusted the contributors.
- [18:19]
B
Yeah.
- [18:19]
C
I mean, there's no way that any of those people would have given us something that we couldn't use.
- [18:25]
A
Yeah.
- [18:25]
C
And almost as is, because that's the, the level that they're writing and thinking at. So I think even just coming up on that Google Doc with the list of people we wanted to hear from, I mean, it's. Maybe it's sort of naive, but it. I kind of felt like, well, this, it can't be bad because no one is like, these are amazing writers. Like, I want to read this book. Forget if my name was on the COVID I would want to read this book always.
- [18:54]
B
And I guess, yeah. The other thing I'd say is I remember, like, with the prompts, we were, you know, in terms of the letter, we were very intentional. And that's why it was pivotal that we shifted our thinking of this is not going to be a risk. Like, you know, Maggie 9's texts were often very much about Project 2025 specifically. Right. Because it's just such a. And now we see that we were right. It's just such a. So clear a roadmap of where they were taking us. Even though all these people were gaslighting us, acting like it wasn't. Wasn't like a factor. It drives me crazy. By the time we wrote to the contributors, we kind of took, like you said, like, we don't. We didn't mention Trump, we didn't mention Project 2025. We mentioned specifically, like this moment, but 50 years ahead. So I think that that did help. But I will admit, I will admit I was like, this is going to be good. Because we've reached out to talented artists, and these people do not. You know, Imani Perry has never half asked.
- [19:52]
A
Right. She's never written a bad, like a writing problem. I'm sure the postage she put in her kids lunch were like the greatest mom notes in the history of Hostess.
- [20:03]
B
You know what I mean? Like, hear Salem and, you know, never half steps. But for me, and I know you, for you, it was reading Alexander Chee's essay. But for me, it was actually when we got the table of contents, that was the first thing we got before we even got to see the work. That was the first time I cried. And I just. Because you can see the range of. You're like, whoa, they're hitting it. And they were prescient. I mean, you know, Kathy Lehman wrote that piece about children's programming that was written in January. It was well before they were talking about PBS and all of that. That actually was not a part of the conversation, you know, so and so that was when I realized I was like, this is going to be nice and this will be good. I don't do anything. You know, like I said, we don't have step. But I will say that when we got to read the material, I was staggered. It like transitioned into something else. Yeah.
- [21:00]
A
I feel like you posted the. I know exactly where I was when you posted the table of contents. I was in Lake Tahoe at Reno. I was going into a Wendy's with friend of the podcast, Sarah Hildreth, because we had just done like a retreat in Tahoe. We were getting ready to get on the airplane and you posted it, and I was like, holy shit. I was there. It's. It's gonna be better than I thought. Okay. I sort of, you know, whatever, but whoa. But then, like, I think Kiss. I just called you kiss Honored. I mean, two of my faves, I think, you know, for me, as I was reading this, the Alexander Chi one, as I said, was amazing. But I think what really, like, impacted me was there were. There were writers who I'd never heard of or didn't know at all who had pieces that I was just like, yes, please. I think, I hope I'm saying this right. Karitha Mitchell.
- [21:55]
B
Yes.
- [21:55]
C
Oh, yes. Yeah.
- [21:57]
A
The. Know your place aggression.
- [22:00]
B
That is so useful. And, you know, I text you after that one. Yeah, you read that particularly as a black woman, and you're like, oh, I've been waiting for this language. And again, Karitha, we met because she was a neighbor of ours in Columbus.
- [22:13]
C
That's right.
- [22:13]
B
And someone Put us a mutual friend, put us in touch. And I'm so, you know, I. And I remember we met the first time I met her for pizza. That's how I met this person. And now she actually lives here in Boston. She teaches at Boston University. So, I mean, quite literally, these are just people I would have gone to, Karitha, and, you know, like, you see the New York Times headline about more than 300,000 black women, you know, losing their jobs, and it's like, know your place aggression. It's right there.
- [22:36]
A
Okay, can I ask you this question then here? So in the same way that Project 2025 was sort of this roadmap for what they're doing, and they, you know, the gaslighting, all that, but obviously it's what they're doing. We knew they were going to do this. They told us they were going to do it. You know, when people show you who they are, believe them, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But what I find interesting about this book, knowing the timeline, knowing that it started as seeds in 2024, up and around the election, and it is in my hands, finished copy in September 2025, and then reading it and being like, oh. Because when I did, when I was reading this, I do think, like, the PBS stuff was actively happening when I was reading, you know, my. My little galley or whatever. And like, there is some sort of prescience in what is in this book, Right? Like, I read their know your place aggression art piece before the piece in the New York Times came out about the 300, 000 black women. So I guess, like, the question is, how did you know what needed? Like, I know you knew who you wanted, but did you feel like in curating that list, there were things that needed to be talked about because you felt like you could see it coming. Is that how you kind of picked who you needed? Like, okay, we need Karitha, because she's probably going to talk about being a black woman. And, like, that's important to this. Or was it, like, as much of a surprise to you as the. As the pieces came in and you were reading them and then the news was breaking after knowing what was in here.
- [24:09]
C
I mean, I think it was a mix.
- [24:10]
A
Okay.
- [24:11]
C
You know, like, I remember wanting to reach out to Abby Maxwell specifically because I had read her memoir about raising a trans child. And I was like, we need to hear from Abby Maxwell. Like, we need to hear from a. From a parent of a trans child. Going into this situation, I remember, like, talking about approaching Chase Strangio and thinking, like, Is there any way that he would write something for this? I mean, there were definitely people we thought, like, I know this person could see, speak to this, but we're not actually going to give them direction.
- [24:46]
A
Sure.
- [24:46]
C
Like, we just solicited them and said, write what you want.
- [24:49]
A
Such good teachers. That's such a teacher move. I'm not going to tell you what to write.
- [24:53]
C
I'm not going to tell you what. There's no homework, but whatever.
- [24:55]
A
But, like, just, you know, whatever you're feeling. Like these are just open prompts.
- [24:59]
C
Yeah, I mean, it was an open prompt. But isn't it also true, like, I think some of the prescience comes that, like, we know in our bodies, like, what is coming sometimes before it happens.
- [25:11]
A
Right.
- [25:11]
C
You know, like, you can sort of like, get the temperature read on where a thing is going and what might be coming next. And especially if. If you're going to be one of those people who's particularly affected by that shift. And I feel like we were all kind of, in different ways getting those kind of, like, temperature reads.
- [25:29]
A
Right.
- [25:30]
C
And it's been really interesting to see the material that came in because we did not direct the content at all. And people really chose things that were, like, the hottest, I think, to them.
- [25:44]
A
Yeah. I mean, I think also, like, part of it is. I mean, Saeed, I know you and I are both this. I don't know this about you or not, Maggie, but, like, a lot of this is also just the history. Like, the writing's on the wall if you know anything about American history or like, the history of human beings. So I think some of it is, like, everything old is new again and.
- [26:04]
C
Like, here we go.
- [26:05]
A
It's gonna come back around.
- [26:07]
C
Yeah. Worst Groundhog Day ever.
- [26:10]
B
Yeah, that's a good point. I mean, when I think about. I mean, it's such a diverse range of writers and interests and experiences, but every single one of these writers is deeply grounded in history. Right. Joy Harjo. You know what I mean? Like, every single person. You know, I mean, again, to think of, like, someone like Kiese, you know, the history of the state of Mississippi is just such a huge part of his personal canon. So in a way, it was just kind of like inviting people to a dinner party and, you know, they're going to vibe. But the other thing I would say is this isn't day one for us with Trump. And so. And to your earlier point about, like, the trite book, and this actually did come up, I will say the. I think the sales team at one point was like, can we put resistance on the COVID And I was like, in a car? And I was like, absolutely not.
- [27:00]
C
I think we may have backhandled about it immediately.
- [27:03]
B
Immediately. No, no, because. Yeah. And this happens in different, you know, for different reasons, different eras. But I know, like, what we were talking about, that kind of topical art, and this was true for books for God. The staged readings I went to in 2017, where you were just like, oh, my God, remember there was like, a production of Julius Caesar where they, like, made Caesar look like Trump, you know, like. So that kind of hashtag, welcome to the resistance. You know, a lot of that. That type of topical art was because in 2017, we were stunned. You know, the. The average person was just fully, you know, blasted out of, you know, expectations. But now it was, this is different. This was like, what? What is? I interviewed Imani about black. The Black and Blues. Her. Her beautiful new book, a finalist for the Kirkus Prize, rightfully so. And I just remember I was asking her about this era and she said, I'm not surprised, but I'm horrified.
- [28:03]
C
Yeah.
- [28:04]
B
And I think that was it. It was like people who were like, well, we, you know, like, if you understand this country's indigenous history, if you are like, Jill, you know, if you have an experience being undocumented, if you have a trans kid, you know, if you're disabled, you know where this goes. And so I think that also informed this sense of like. Like 2016 era. Everyone was just shocked and trying to describe what we were seeing in real time. Now, I is the artists and the writer's expectation that we're helping people look forward.
- [28:36]
A
Okay, we have to take a quick break, but I want to talk about surprise a little bit when we come back. How is it September already? I literally have no clue. Hello, it is I, Tracy Thomas, host of the Stacks. You know, we're talking about books all the time over here, and if we're not talking about books, books enough for you. Allow me to introduce you to the Stacks Pack on Patreon and my newsletter, unstacked on Substack. These are places where you can get inside access to the show. Not to mention my non fiction reading guide, which came out at the start of the summer, is only available until September 22nd. And you have to join one of these communities to get it. I'm just throwing that out there, but you might want to know, what is the Stacks Pack? Well, the Stacks Pack is a community for book lovers. We do book club meetups. We have a private discord. We do our mega reading Challenge all year year long. It's a place to help you push your reading goals, help you find new recommendations. Plus you get an exclusive bonus episode every month over on Unstacked. That's my newsletter, so that's me writing to you about celebrity gossip, hot takes, book recommendations. I even do a monthly nonfiction column and you also get that bonus episode. But even if you don't have a few dollars to spare, over on Unstack, there's a free option just for you. Listen, making this podcast is a huge team effort. And by supporting the Patreon in the substack, you allow me to support myself and my amazing team, my assistant, my editor. All of us are able to make a living because of the incredible support we get from you all. So if you're Interested, head to patreon.com the stacks to join the stacks pack and go to tracythomas.substack.com to subscribe to the newsletter. And listen, if you don't want to write that down, there's links for both of those in the episode descriptions because that is how we do it around here. So if you're looking to meet other book lovers, if you want to support this independent podcast, if you want to come hang out with me in the discord, go to patreon.com the stacks to join the stacks pack and go to tracythomas.substack.com to subscribe to the newsletter. And you know, see in the stacks babes. Okay, listen, I have a secret to confess. I do in fact love online shopping. Okay, maybe that wasn't a secret. You might know that, but nowadays it is so easy. With that little purple Shopify button at the end of checkout. Just a single click and all your payment and shipping information are ready to go. And that right there, that ease is why so many businesses use it to make running your business as easy as the checkout process. Shopify powers 10% of all E commerce in the US so it's safe to say they know a little something something about business. Maybe you're not the most tech savvy. Well, Shopify's got you with hundreds of ready to go templates to match your brand's style. You can tackle all of those important tasks in one place, from inventory to payments to analytics and a lot more. And when it comes to getting the word out, Shopify has built in marketing and email tools to make it easy to find and keep your new customers. And did I mention that iconic purple shop pay button already? You know the One that's used by millions of businesses around the world. It's why Shopify has the best conversion checkout on the planet. Your customers already love it. If you want to see less carts being abandoned, it's time for you to head over to Shopify. Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com thestacks go to shopify.com thestacks shopify.com thestacks.
- [32:23]
D
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- [33:44]
A
Okay, we're back. I have this is. I'm just asking you two because you're both smart, wonderful people and I have you here and you have to answer my questions for the next 30 minutes. But one of the things I think said maybe we talked about this when we did the goodness conversation. I can't remember, but I have talked about this before. There is this performance, I think, of people who feel like saying that you are surprised about something is somehow maybe embarrassing or that like you are therefore not paying attention or naive or something like that. And I feel like it really started popping off as like this thing that people would be like, well, I'm not surprised, right?
- [34:32]
B
Or I don't know why you're surprised.
- [34:34]
A
I don't know why you're and I feel like, like in like 2020 with all the Black Lives Matter stuff. It sort of became this refrain, like, well, I'm not surprised by this, but, like, as if, like, I know everything, and I'm just wondering what you all make of that. And to me, maybe I am naive. I'm always surprised. I'm always surprised that knowing what we know and knowing how history works, that we still are repeating things, that we still are doing things. And I don't think feel shame about being surprised. And maybe part of it is what Imani said is, like, maybe I'm conflating surprise and horror or surprise and terror or just this idea of surprise as, like, this is happening and it's taking me off guard as opposed to not seeing it. But I feel like I can be both surprised and also have seen it coming. And so I'm wondering sort of what how you guys think about the surprise of some of the horror and terror of our lives in the world.
- [35:33]
C
I mean, doesn't horrified necessarily assume. Surprise, shock, like a jump, you know, like a jump scare.
- [35:44]
A
Right.
- [35:44]
C
Is not a jump scare without the jump. And I don't think you can have. You cannot be horrified by something if you saw it coming. You just can't. You can be disappointed, right? You can be let down, disgusted, frustrated, angry. You can feel a lot of negative things. But I feel like, horrified in itself includes the feeling of like, are you kidding me? We should have known better. Like, didn't we learn our lesson about this? How are we back in this, like, loop again? I mean, I'm not ashamed of being horrified, I guess, like, once I. Once I. I don't want to numb out to the point where everything just feels like, yeah, here we go again. Because then. Then what?
- [36:30]
B
Yeah, I mean, one, I think, you know, of the three of us, I think I'm the most chronically online. I'll admit it. It's, you know, oh, I don't know, something I grew up. You know, it's. It's narrow. But, yeah, it's. I'm. I'm living there. And, you know, the reason I say that is I find that. That. I don't know why you're surprised response. You know, you share. You share a news story or you find this, you know, 300,000 black women. Well, of course, to me, that is a specifically Internet posture because it's. It's people who aren't in dialogue. They're not in conversation. They're. They're performing. They're trying to out, you know, profound you. And so it's not really a conversation. You would never, you Know, like, if again, I think, could you imagine, you know, when Maggie, you know, is like after the election and thinking about what this means, for example, reproductive justice. If I've been like, well, I don't know why you're surprised. You're like, oh my God, you know, totally. You would never say that. So that's one thing. And then the other thing is I, I mean, I am horrified. I am surprised because, like, yeah, it's. I don't. It would be scary to get to the point where I don't. Like, I was thinking, I'm reading Nimwali's forthcoming book about Toni Morrison, and she points out that in Morrison's philosophy, in the novels, it's disinterested. Like, the disinterested is when people get like, Charlie is disinterested and that's when he rapes his daughter. Sula's disinterested. And that's where she watched her mother burn alive and doesn't even attempt to help. Like, for, for Morrison, that is like the true evil. And so. Yeah. And then the other thing is, I think I used to think the word disappointed was like, I don't know, like a limp, weak feeling. But I think when, when you're describing those moments of like, you see, like that. I mean, I. I haven't stopped thinking about since that New York Times story. 300,000. It was 319,000 black women have lost their jobs in a five month period. And during the same period, 365,000 white men gained jobs. Right. It's just, it's a. It's a staggering statistic when you think about those two and what it all means and why. And so for me, it's. It's profound disappointment.
- [38:40]
A
Yeah.
- [38:40]
B
You know, because we know the history, we understand, you know, the systemic inequities. We understand black women are the last to get in, the first to get shoved out. But there's just something about, you know, you, Alligator, Alcatraz.
- [38:52]
A
Yeah.
- [38:52]
B
You know, it's just. You see that and it's just like a profound. I mean, it makes me think because they're talking about Morrison, you know, at the end of Sula, where she's just circles and circles of sorrow. That's what I think people are expressing. It's not naivete, it's just like there's always another basement in hell. I didn't think we were gonna get here.
- [39:10]
A
Right, right. I think, like, I mean, I have the surprise that I know better and still I'm surprised about what's happening, what's happening in Gaza. To me, that's the one where I'm just like, I am horrified and I am genuinely surprised. Like, when I see these news stories about these journalists and like Israel says it was a Hamas camera, I'm genuinely like, how could you say something like, like, how are we letting this be said? But I think to your point about disappointment, and I do think we talked about this. Saeed, is that part of like the election conversation? And again, this might be a chronically online thing, but I think it's also a response to 2016 is that people are preemptively disappointed or preemptively deciding this is not possible and there's no hope because they don't want to be disappointed later. And I'm like, no, babe, you got to lean into the hope. Because if you're right, if you're right and this all blows up in everyone's faces, you might as well have believed in something for 30 minutes before you're depressed. Like, what do you get out of being right about something terrible? I. That's the one for me where I'm just like, I can't live like that. Like, I am going to believe that Kamala Harris was going to be president until somebody calls it. Like, if there is a path forward, I'm always going to believe in the path forward and then we'll reroute. But I find the, like, the performance of being defeated so upsetting. So upsetting. And I feel like in the book that isn't there. Which I appreciate.
- [40:46]
C
No, I don't think there's any. Like, I would, I would call that like self protective.
- [40:52]
A
It's like self fulfilling or cynicism or.
- [40:55]
C
Nihilism or pessimism or just. It's that self protective impulse. It's like, you can't surprise me. You can't catch me off guard. I know what's up. I like and also, like, I'm weirdly immune to all of this. I can't be hurt by it because I'm not making myself. Like, hope is vulnerable, Right. Like once you get your. Don't get your hopes up, right? Because what's the, what happens when you get your hopes up? Then you just get completely obliterated if you're disappointed. And so this idea that you just live with a very low baseline expectation for human behavior so that you're not disappointed is no way to live. I agree with you.
- [41:38]
A
Is there like a practice that either of you do to not fall into those traps? Not that giggle.
- [41:50]
C
Look at this flat. Look, I'M just like, for the first.
- [41:53]
A
Time, all three of us are silent.
- [41:55]
C
I'm like a practice against cynicism.
- [41:58]
B
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, I guess the one. I'm gonna answer your question, but the one other thing I would say is I also think for not all, but some people, I do think it's a trauma response that I do try at times to, to empathize. I mean, so. But we haven't even talked about the pandemic. So many things have happened, you know, and, and let's just say the last five years that I see sometimes people. I'm like, you're not even talking to me right now. This is a, you know, and I mean, you're in a, In a world.
- [42:26]
C
You know, there's a screen.
- [42:28]
B
There's a screen. And I, and I. And I'm like, like, I hope you get out of it, because you. It's like, like y' all both said, I can't. I can't live that way for long. You can feel that way. I get it. We have our moments. You can feel that way, absolutely. But you can't live that way for long. I believe that. You know, it's interesting. Yesterday, it is the beginning of the semester this week here at Harvard, and I had my first class meeting yesterday. And, wow, it was like, I could barely get to sleep afterwards, like, like last night. And I was, I was texting my friend Isaac. I was like, I forgot the flow of energy. Like, not just, like, in class, but afterwards, after spending two and a half hours with these brilliant, brilliant, excited, emerging writers who are grounded and who want to use their writing to, to help people that they're deeply invested in it. And I just, Yeah, I, I feel differently than I felt yesterday. And so I was, I was, I was, Yeah, I left. And I was immediately sending, kind of like, like with Maggie, I was sending my friend Isaac a voice memo. And I was just like, you know, I, I, I think. And this is my second year teaching this class, so it's giving me an opportunity to have more perspective on it. And I was just like, oh, I knew I liked teaching, but I think I really underestimated how much it grounds me in reality. It is. It is. So, I mean, it's the same reason Mackie and I are writers, you know? And I was reading an interview this morning with Arun Radi Roy, and she was like, I have to do. I have to do this, right? I spent. Because she'. The only way I've survived is by thinking and thinking and thinking about all of these issues, and I have to get it out there. And so I think whether you are, you know, I think writing can do it for you, and I think teaching, I think helping people, it gets you out of your head. You know, when. When I have felt the closest to that really scary kind of bereft nest or. Or that kind of pessimism or nihilism, I can almost guarantee it is a day that I haven't left my apartment.
- [44:27]
C
Yep.
- [44:27]
B
I've been on my phone, I've been on the computer. I've been reading and listening to the news all day long without doing something for someone else. Those are the days that. That's when I'm. I'm the person with the. The screen in front of, you know, myself.
- [44:40]
A
Yeah. Right.
- [44:41]
C
Which is why, like, a book that we are thinking about as sort of a way to have a little community in your pocket because it's so small, you can just put it in your. You can just put it in your coat pocket.
- [44:52]
B
It feels like contraband.
- [44:53]
A
It does.
- [44:54]
C
Like, and then you can sort of carry around this, like, little Greek chorus of, like, badass voices telling you things you need to hear, and you could just open it to anywhere and flip and read two pages in the middle of the day and hopefully have, like, maybe a little wind in your sails. I mean, for me, it's like, teaching does that for me, too. Or even just spending time with my kids. Like, it sounds so trite, but just spending time with young people who are aware of what is going on in the world but don't yet have this sort of, like, nihilistic viewpoint that it cannot be solved.
- [45:33]
B
Yeah. It's like, I mean, you know, we're in a group text with our editor, Jenny Hsu, for the book, and Maggie's son Rhett kicked the first goal of his soccer game yesterday, and she said he immediately ran off the field to come give her a hug.
- [45:48]
A
Aw.
- [45:48]
B
And she's, like, sending us pictures. And I just, you know, I'm not a parent, so.
- [45:52]
C
You said, my nephew.
- [45:53]
B
My nephew. I'm like, that is my nephew, baby. And I think, yeah, it's. I get emotional because, you know. You know, like I said, the three of us, like, we are in many ways well equipped for this life, you know, And I think a lot about, you know, how else do I say? Because I know what I was sent here to do, you know, and I'm doing it, and I'm as horrified and disappointed. I am equipped, and I have legions of sisters and fam that I can reach out to. In those moments. But I just. I think about kids and. And I. And. And kids are smart and they are observant, and if you don't think they aren't aware of what's going on around here, you know, don't underestimate how. How perceptive they are. But they don't. They don't have the tools yet. They don't have the experiences and the wisdom. And so I just. Yeah, I just. It really gets to me, and it just reminds me why it's so important that we do books like this and continue to do this work as much for ourselves as for the least of us. You know, the elderly, the disabled, the undocumented, the children who are just so much more vulnerable right now. We. We have to. I want to keep living, but most importantly, when I'm not here, I want people to continue to live. And I think children remind us of that.
- [47:23]
A
You know, I mean, I feel like I have a lot of teachers who listen and librarians, and I do feel like this is something that should be in schools. Maybe not taught in schools, but, like, you know, they give you books at the beginning of the school year. It's like, just take this and, like, play with this all year. Because I do think so many young people are lucky to have families that care about and foster their abilities to critically think and to feel protected in the world, but also, so many children do not. And I think in the ways that you've given me community with this book, I think that that is available to anyone who, you know, opens the pages and. And reads from it. This is sort of a hard shift, and this is maybe sort of illegal to do, but I love to be.
- [48:09]
C
Free into whatever it is.
- [48:11]
A
Well, I'm gonna make you guys name some names. We're doing some superlatives for this one.
- [48:16]
B
Okay.
- [48:17]
A
So you're gonna have to answer some.
- [48:19]
B
And I pull up the table.
- [48:21]
A
You know, I know we're not playing favorites, but we are.
- [48:23]
C
Oh, not superlatives. You know what I got my senior year of high school?
- [48:27]
A
What'd you get?
- [48:28]
C
Dreamiest eyes.
- [48:29]
A
Okay. But you do have.
- [48:30]
B
And I do have dreamy eyes.
- [48:32]
A
So annoyed.
- [48:32]
C
I was like. But there was, like, a most unique and, like, a funny one. Like, humor. Humorous.
- [48:37]
B
And I was like, the most dramatic male.
- [48:38]
A
I got drama queen. But can I tell you why I was mad? Because I didn't get most talented, which.
- [48:45]
B
I wanted most fashionable.
- [48:46]
A
That's also was in the running for best physique, and I didn't get that. Oh. And I would have liked that because at one point, I could have been. Like, I was hot.
- [48:54]
C
Honestly, though, sorry. Runner up. Best physique is still pretty good.
- [48:59]
A
That's pretty good. But it's not in the air.
- [49:01]
C
I was not in the running for that. Like, it was not going to happen for me.
- [49:06]
A
But, like, I don't care about high school at all. Like, not a big deal now.
- [49:09]
B
Yeah, we're totally over it. Totally over it.
- [49:11]
C
We're over it.
- [49:12]
A
Yeah. That's why we're doing superlatives, because who cares about high school?
- [49:15]
C
Cause who cares? Okay.
- [49:17]
A
My first superlative is most tear jerking.
- [49:21]
B
Alexander Chee.
- [49:22]
C
Alexander Chee.
- [49:23]
A
Okay.
- [49:25]
B
I want to. I keep meaning to print out the end of that essay, and I literally want to put it above my desk. It's just so moving. Moving. Even the title. Anyway.
- [49:34]
A
Yeah, okay. Most surprising.
- [49:39]
C
You know, Marlin's piece really surprised me. Like, I was like, I didn't know we were going to talk about clothes. Yeah, like, the topic surprised me. Like, I. I mean, I knew whatever he sent was going to be genius and, like, elegant as hell, because he is. But, like, that. That surprised me. And it surprised me what my emotional.
- [50:03]
B
Response to it was.
- [50:03]
C
Response to it was.
- [50:05]
B
Yeah. Yeah. I. So that Marlon's bees did not surprise me.
- [50:09]
C
Because you're not surprised. I don't know why you're surprised.
- [50:14]
B
He's another friend that I'm texting with all day, and I've known for years at this point, and I just got to see him a couple weeks ago. He used to be a creative director. I don't know if you knew that. And he's always talking about the visual. Like, he's. I mean, he's an artist. Like, he's. He's. He's painting and drawing in his apartment. His office is so cool, seeing the, like, sketches and everything. So he's. He's. He's always thinking about the visual. So I didn't know exactly how he was gonna approach it, but I felt that it was gonna be some aspect of the design of this moment. So that didn't surprise me. I think, for me, it's Sam Sachs's poem. It feels like he invented a new form. You know, it feels like the first time I read, like, Jericho Brown's duplex, and I was like, oh, my gosh. And now you see so many people, you know, doing their own duplexes. I want to write my own scores like him. So that was just. I was like. I said, it's like, it was just so fun to invite these People to the party, you know, the dinner party of this book. And I was like, oh, girl, I didn't know you could cook that.
- [51:14]
C
That's incredible.
- [51:15]
B
You know. Thank you. You know, I love that.
- [51:18]
A
What about Most Likely to Return to over and Over?
- [51:23]
B
Oh, that's hard. This is hard.
- [51:28]
C
That is really hard. You know, the one that I found myself rereading, though, is Eula's the Fast One.
- [51:37]
B
Yeah, that was definitely one of the.
- [51:40]
C
Just. Just to like, spend more time inside of it and. And to learn from it, but also to see how it moves. I. That's been one that I've been going back to.
- [51:50]
B
Oh, gosh. Eula would definitely be one of those for me, but I think I'd say Jason Brian Silverstein's. Oh, look ahead, look back about health care. I mean, you know, I teach in the medical school. I'm thinking. And. And again, it kind of. Kind of what you were talking about. Surprise. You know, I'm just. I'm often teaching and working with people who are already working in healthcare or want to. And I'm learning so much, and I'm just constantly shook, you know, about how it all follows through. I remember, like, you know, always it'll be just like. Like, in passing, we were like, walking across the medical school campus, and he pointed to one of the hospital buildings and he said, say there are more. There are like 65 radiologists or something like that who work on that floor of this hospital. And that is more. And I can't remember the exact country. It was a West African country. He was like, that is more. That are in the entire country, you know, and in fact, I think he said there. Oh, it was Sierra Leone. It was like there was one, you know, and I just. And I was like, radiologists like to get X ray, like, you know, like such a. Such a basic and fundamental aspect of healthcare. And I never thought about. Yeah, like, the equity in that way. Health equity is also like, literally what's available to you. Not even. Can you pay for it. Do you have the insurance? Is there someone in your country who can give you X rays right now? Whoa. You know, so, yeah, that. That I keep going back to it because it's. I think it's only going to become more important.
- [53:24]
A
I have two more. This one, I think, is the hardest. Just.
- [53:27]
B
Oh, God.
- [53:28]
A
Just today. Just as of today.
- [53:31]
B
Okay.
- [53:32]
A
Favorite.
- [53:34]
C
Not a chance.
- [53:37]
A
I thought it might be illegal. I thought I'd try. I thought I'd try it.
- [53:41]
B
Oh, God. I think I'll say Chase Jan. Gio's. Essay. Yeah, I. You know, I mean, one. Just because I saw literally last night a headline that the Trump administration is trying. Is talking about trying to make it illegal for trans people to own guns.
- [53:59]
A
Yeah.
- [53:59]
C
Give me a break.
- [54:00]
B
That's what I mean. Like, that sense of. But not white men, like, disappointment, you know, like, you're just like, what?
- [54:08]
A
Like, that's literally surprising to me. Like, that is shocking. That's a shocking.
- [54:12]
B
Depths of the depravity and the hatred. It's just like, I didn't even know y' all had it in you is how I feel. But it's. It's rereading it recently, just really. It's been on my mind a great deal. Brandon, Tina and Matthew Shepard were both killed within a couple of years of each other. And, you know, I remember. You know, I certainly remember Boys Don't Cry, the movie, which I can never watch again. But the way he brings all of that together and the simplicity of a haircut.
- [54:40]
C
Yeah.
- [54:41]
A
Yeah.
- [54:41]
B
It both felt. And this is the thing. It's like, you know, we're reading this book against our bridges of distance. You know, Maggie Smith is a white mother living in the Midwest. I'm a black gay man living on the East Coast. You know, we care about each other, but we're also very different. And Trace is a very different person living a very different lives as a trans man, as a lawyer, I think he's a parent as well. And. But I just. I felt it. I got. I was like, there's so much here that I. I get. And it's. Of course, it's a cliche, but this book, I think, because the soulfulness that each writer brings is the same, you know, so. So even if, you know, you're like, I'm not undocumented. I have no idea what that's like. Or I'm not disabled. I have no. Like, the soul is there, and it feels like it meets you right where you are, you know?
- [55:32]
A
Okay, here's the last one. Maggie, you do have to answer this one. It's not that hard.
- [55:35]
B
Oh, yeah, you punted.
- [55:37]
A
I let her punt. Cause it's her first time here. But, like, if you try it again with me, Maggie.
- [55:43]
C
Dead to me.
- [55:44]
A
You're done. You've been nicely.
- [55:46]
B
One of the reasons I always love and fear listening to Tracy is. And why I love coming on the show. She will talk about books. She does not. Like, she will do, you know, Like, I think so much of the. You know, we're in a desert.
- [56:01]
C
It's an anticipation.
- [56:02]
B
Trophy Show. We're in a desert of, like, real criticism in this country, in this moment right now, you know, everything's just fawning. So I know you go there, but you've been very nice.
- [56:12]
A
Well, I really like the book. If I didn't like it, I'd be talking about it in a different way.
- [56:16]
B
That's true.
- [56:16]
A
You know, I always say my job is to my listeners, and the most important relationship for me is that my listeners trust me and that they believe me and that they know what I. When I say certain words or when I talk about certain things, they can read between the lines. And so, you know, I really like this book, so it was easy for me. But here's the last one, and I think this one's really easy. If you could have added one person and they would have said yes, or even if you don't know them, who is the one person you would love to have had a piece in here from?
- [56:51]
C
Oh, I know. Who did we ask to do it, but she wasn't allowed.
- [56:57]
B
Oh, yeah. Justice Kentanji Jackson Brown. Oh, she. She sent us her. Or someone in her office sends a very nice rejection because ethically, she couldn't. But we asked her, you know, would you be interested in, like, writing the introduction? That would have been incredible.
- [57:14]
C
That would have been.
- [57:15]
A
I have. Can I tell you who mine is? And I'm sure you probably would have published.
- [57:18]
B
We should have published her rejection note, because even that was like.
- [57:21]
C
It really was like.
- [57:22]
B
I felt like the. I felt like the subtext was we.
- [57:25]
C
Were written between the lines.
- [57:26]
B
Many of these other justices are doing wildly unethical shit, but not me.
- [57:32]
A
She's also like, I just got here, so I need to play. Play along with cute.
- [57:36]
B
Yeah, yeah, mine.
- [57:38]
A
And I'm.
- [57:38]
C
I'm.
- [57:38]
A
My guess is that you probably reached out to this person, but mine, as with everything that happens in the world, I am always wanting to hear from Tressie McMillan Cotton.
- [57:47]
B
Oh, yes, absolutely.
- [57:49]
A
She is always the voice that I am turning to, whether it's. I. Like, I'm waiting for her to write about Kate Middleton's blonde hair. Right? Like, I'm just like, oh, this happened. Like, what is dressing. My first thought when I saw the picture, and it was like, Kate tries out blonde hair. Hair. It's not like, oh, that's clearly a wig, because this woman has cancer. And, like, she probably lost her hair. It's literally. What does Tressi think about this choice?
- [58:12]
C
Like, go to Instagram profile. I did go.
- [58:15]
A
And she was talking about male loneliness stories.
- [58:17]
B
Oh, the Male. Her male loneliness.
- [58:19]
A
Amazing.
- [58:20]
B
It was incredible. She was like, we don't have a male loneliness epidemic. We have a male violence epidemic.
- [58:24]
C
Yes.
- [58:24]
A
And I'm like, I don't need. I know that she has real work to do, but what I need is for her to have only voice memos to send to me at any, every turn.
- [58:35]
C
Like, I know you have a job, but could you also just be my personal person? Can you just teach me? Yeah.
- [58:41]
A
Why is this. What does the data say? Can you sociology professor me for everything?
- [58:49]
C
I guess she should just have cameo. Like, instead of cameo, you know, like, just have basically like unfettered access on demand.
- [58:57]
B
Drop in. Drop in, yeah. Anywhere she goes, I'm willing to go. I guess the only person I had and it was because literally I was reading a New York Times interview with her this morning. I'm looking forward to her new book, Arundhati Roy.
- [59:09]
A
I thought you were gonna say Elizabeth Gilbert.
- [59:13]
B
No, see, that's the book. I was afraid this book was going to be like. That is what I envisioned the trite.
- [59:19]
C
Woo, woo.
- [59:20]
B
I'm scared. I'm not reading the book.
- [59:22]
C
Oh, because you read the excerpt.
- [59:25]
B
Yeah.
- [59:25]
A
I just. I need to know. I feel like I need to have an opinion.
- [59:29]
B
Actually, Maggie, we're gonna text afterwards. We gonna get into this tea afterwards.
- [59:31]
C
I was like, we're. Wait till the mic. The mic's off.
- [59:35]
B
Mine would be at run. How you, Roy? Because, you know, she. I was just reading, like, when she thinks about what's going on in the United States, she's thinking about through the lens that she's like, y' all are just now getting hit with the type of authoritarianism we've been dealing with in India for much longer. And.
- [59:50]
C
And so she babies.
- [59:51]
B
Yeah. So. So again, like, that sense of, like, this isn't day one for me. I think that would have been a really interest. Interesting perspective to bring to the book. Because, yeah, I mean, I mean, America is still. We're a very young country and we're in many ways we are green and. And you know, the thing about American exceptionalism, it functions in so many ways. And so there is, you know, I know we talked about the surprise thing, and it's so interesting that it's become a real point of this conversation. But there is like an American sentiment because we nationally, you know, are so isolationist and don't tend to think of ourselves as globally as we should. And. And so I think a lot of us are kind of looking around like, huh, what? How did this happen? But of course, you know, that's why it's so great to have, you know, Eula talking about the history of fascism in France, for example, and the resistance to it and, yeah. Knowing about what's going on in countries like India. I think, again, it's. It's terrifying to see the similarities. But she's also, in her essays and in her books, giving us a pathway. You know, she's showing us how far we are down this track and hopefully we can get off of it. That's an important perspective. Yeah.
- [61:00]
A
Okay. We are out of time. I didn't get to do snacks and spelling and whatever, but I have to do this last one, which is, if you could have one person dead or alive read this book, who would you want it to be?
- [61:11]
B
Langston Hughes?
- [61:12]
C
My father?
- [61:14]
B
T. Okay.
- [61:16]
A
Okay.
- [61:16]
B
That's a good answer.
- [61:17]
A
That's a really good answer. Everyone's got a good answer. Everyone wins. Okay? Okay. Thank you both so much for being here. Everyone listening. The book is so good. You can get it now wherever you get your books. It is called the People's Project. It is. It's great. Thank you both so much for being here. And we will see you in the stacks. All right, y', all, that does it for us today. Thank you so much for listening, and thank you again to both Saeed Jones and Maggie Smith for joining the show. I'd also like to say a huge thank you to Holly Rice for making this interview possible. Our September book club pick is the Lilac People by Milo Todd, and we will discuss the book on Wednesday, September 24th with Den Michelle Norris. If you love the show, if you want inside access to it, if you want some perks, head over to patreon.com the stacks to join the Stacks Pack and subscribe to my newsletter at Tracy Thomas substack.com make sure you're subscribed to the Stacks wherever you listen to your podcast. And if you're listening through Apple podcasts or Spotify, leave us a rating and a review. For more from the Stacks, follow us on social media at the Stacks Pod, on Instagram threads and TikTok, and you can check out our website@thestaxpodcast.com Today's episode of the Stacks was edited by Christian Duenas with production assistance from Wykea Frielo. Our graphic designer is Robin McRate, and our theme music is from Tagirijis. The Stax is created and produced by me, Tracy Thomas.