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- [00:01]
Clavis Natera
I'm always interested in thinking about how people become complicit in the systems that dehumanize them just as quickly as the people that are in power now, in power of the government have said diversity bad. And you see how quickly every single university, every single major corporation bent the knee. It took very little. With this book I certainly wanted to expand, expose that, and in some ways, and not like a judgy way because I think that makes for boring fiction. So I'm more interested in being like what is more fascinating than the person who actually becomes complicit.
- [00:46]
Tracy Thomas
Welcome to the Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host Tracy Thomas and today I am joined by Clavis Natera. She is an essayist, critic and novelist who you might know from her debut novel, Neruda on the park, and today she is here to discuss her newest book, the Grand Paloma Resort. This literary suspense novel is set in the Dominican Republic and revolves around two sisters who work at a high end luxury resort called the Grand Paloma. The book follows them as disaster strikes and they try to figure out what they're going to do. I absolutely love this book and was thrilled to talk to Clavis today about how she thought about writing in the literary suspense genre, why it was important for her to include the history of the Dominican Republic and Haiti, and what's so interesting to her about a workplace novel. The Stacks Book Club pick for September is the Lilac People by Milo Todd. We will be discussing the book on Wednesday, September 24th with Den Michelle Norris. Reminder Everything we talk about on each episode of the Stacks can be found in the link in the show Notes if you're listening to this podcast, if you like this podcast, if you want more bookish content and community, consider joining the Stacks Pack on patreon@patreon.com the stacks and getting many more of my hot takes on books, pop culture, snacks, everything by heading to my newsletter called Unstacked, which you can find at Tracy Thomas substack.com In both of those places, you'll also get monthly bonus episodes. Plus, your support makes it possible for me to make this podcast every single week free to all. So if you love the show, if you want to support the work that I do alongside my amazing team, head to patreon.com the stacks and check out my newsletter at Tracy thomas.substack.com All right, now it's time for my conversation with the absolutely wonderful Clavis Matera. All right everybody, I I Feel like this has been years in the making, and I'm so excited to welcome to the show an author that I absolutely adore, both on the page and off. Her name is Clavis Natera. Her new book is called the Grand Paloma Resort. Clavis, welcome to the stacks.
- [03:07]
Clavis Natera
First of all, Tracy, you think this is years in the making? This is years in the making for me. I've been listening to your podcast forever. I am such a. Stan, I love you so much. I love you for having me.
- [03:19]
Tracy Thomas
I love you. So I had to tell people originally, I wasn't sure if I was going to have Clavis on because I just did an event with her in L. A. And we had so much fun at the event, but the problem was we didn't answer, like, half the questions I wrote. And so I said, why don't you come on the podcast so we can do the rest of my plan? So here she is. The reason I was, I was like, oh, we're not going to have. We're going to have the same conversation for the podcast, but guess what? We're not going to have the same conversations. We've got podcast plenty to cover today. Yes.
- [03:48]
Clavis Natera
And I have to say that it was a strategic move on my part, but it was not like, we were just such a great time at Reparations Club in L. A that I feel like we could just talk for hours and hours and hours.
- [03:59]
Tracy Thomas
So I agree. We're going to try to keep this to one hour. We'll see how we do. Okay, let's just start where we always start, which is like, in 30 seconds or so. Can you just tell folks what the Grand Paloma Resort is about? Yes.
- [04:12]
Clavis Natera
So the Grand Paloma Resort is a novel that takes place over the course of one week. It is centrally concerned with two sisters, Laura and Elena, who are employees at this luxury resort in the Dominican Republic. Over the course of one week, we're exposed to kind of the underbelly of tourism and what it means to actually be a worker in one of these very high end luxury spaces in the Caribbean.
- [04:37]
Tracy Thomas
Okay, I want to just start here. Which is. What was it about luxury resort that you wanted to write about? Like, what were you seeing in that space in your mind that was ripe for a novel?
- [04:53]
Clavis Natera
Yes. I mean, I think there's just so much there. I was born in the Dominican Republic, and even though I lived there until I was 10 years old and traveled there, you know, as I was growing up, which has never had a lot of money, so, you know, the fact of the matter is that as I was growing up, I never had access to what I would consider to be the most beautiful resources of my own country. And so, you know, I graduated from college, I went to graduate school, I was working a full time corporate job for many years. And that actually enabled me to travel back to my country as a tourist. And so one of the most intriguing parts of those trips for me was that, you know, very often, and this happens everywhere I go, whether it's the Caribbean or Latin America or Europe or Asia, whenever I travel. And right now I'm a substantially different class than I was as I was growing up in Dr. And whenever I travel and I'm in these luxury spaces, it very often happens that people who are in my class don't see me. They either confuse me for service or a worker, or they just literally I become invisible. And so over the years, I just feel like I've had access to being on the inside and the outside of the luxury experience. And so I just think that for me, like a resort is the microcosm of society. When I think about the way that class shows up, the way that race shows up, the way that gender plays into kind of the hierarchies that exist, it's just like too delicious of like a space as a setting for a novel. And I thought it would make for a great place to put these kind of messy characters.
- [06:34]
Tracy Thomas
It definitely made for a good place for these messy characters, which we're gonna get to. But I wanna ask you, and we talked about this a little bit at the event, but I want to ask you more on a personal level, what is it like for you, a person who is from the Dominican Republic, as you said, grew up, you know, did not have a lot. Finally, as you become an adult, you sort of shift through class, you, you come up to a place where you're able to go back to the Dominican Republic as a tourist, sort of like as an outsider in some ways, but you're still an insider because it is still, you know, where you're from. Where, what's that like, like visiting a place that you know in such a different way?
- [07:12]
Clavis Natera
Well, I mean, I think what it has been like for me, it's been like really clarifying and illuminating. I mean, I think that there are just certain things that often, I think as humans, we are trapped in like the reality of our own lived experience. And for me, what has happened as I've traveled back to the Dominican Republic is that I've become really conscious of like how Life is different depending on your station in life. And I know that most of us think, like, of course, when you are wealthy or you have more money, life is easier. But it isn't just about, like, having access to nicer things. It's also like, on a scale of humanity, like, where do people consider you? Like, how are you treated? How are you perceived? And I think for me, as a Dominican person, and I'll say this, which further complicates it, like, I'm Afro Dominican. And so when I show up to these spaces, I very often am confronting a lot of the same racism and prejudices that black people in the diaspora confront all over the place. And so I also think that's really interesting that when I go to those spaces, it isn't just like all the other tourists that might not perceive me as being someone in their class, but it's also like my own people who might just have too much familiarity or might treat me like crap just because they feel either entitled to it or they're just prejudices they might not be conscious of.
- [08:35]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. And that there's like a complicated. Like, the complicating factor of being Afro Dominican is that when you're in the Dominican Republic, you're seen one way and when you're in the States, you know, you're seen another way. Is that sort of part of it, too?
- [08:48]
Clavis Natera
Well, I mean, in the Dominican Republic, race really is so different. I mean, I know, like, you know, we've been dragged through the mud and with this survey, you know, people who are Dominican who don't consider themselves to be black and who are, you know, obviously noticeably black.
- [09:03]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [09:04]
Clavis Natera
But there is something really interesting in the Dominican Republic, and I think people who have traveled there see it. Is that the gradation of race, you know, it's just really wide and we have so many words for the. For the person who is darker skinned. And the truth of the matter is that in the Dominican Republic, the underclass really are Haitian people. And so when you go to the Dominican Republic and you're around folks who are presenting as black, I am never surprised when people don't, you know, align themselves with a black diaspora. Because in the Dominican Republic, you can have people who are like, as dark as Dominican black gets and then as light as white, presenting who. Who are married and they never would consider themselves to be, like, in an interracial marriage. You know, that's not right. People even think of it.
- [09:52]
Tracy Thomas
Right. I mean, I'm asking these questions not just because I'm curious, but also this is all in the book, which I think is really cool, because this is, you know, like a literary suspense novel or a thriller. You know, genre is a funny thing, but you've packed a lot of, like, real shit into this book, including a ton of history of the Dominican Republican and Haiti for people who don't know they share an island. So that's why the two. You know, the two. The Haitians and the Dominican. What? Dominicans. I said the Dominican Republicans. Like, that's not right. The Haitians and the Dominicans have so much, you know, beef with one another. And there's so much, like, interpersonal stuff because they share this, like, space. But I want to know why. Why you wanted to incorporate that history into this, like, speech read in some ways.
- [10:46]
Clavis Natera
Yeah. I mean, I. First of all, nerd alert. For anybody who, like, loves books, who hopefully. Is everybody listening to.
- [10:51]
Tracy Thomas
If you're listening, I hope you at least love at least the Grand Paloma Resort. But maybe you like other books.
- [10:57]
Clavis Natera
Stick around other books. But, you know, it's so interesting because I feel like the starting point and the real inspiration for this book came from Edwige Dantica's the Farming of Bones.
- [11:08]
Tracy Thomas
Which is mentioned in the book.
- [11:09]
Clavis Natera
Yes. I mean, that is one of the epigraphs that I used to open the book. And so I was in my 20s when I first read the Farming of Bones by Edwige Danticat. And this was Edwidge Danticat's second book that she published. And the book is centrally concerned with Amabel, who is a domestic worker in a home for rich Dominicans in the Dominican Republic. And during the book, the Parsley Massacre takes place, which is a genocidal event that happened in the Dominican Republic in 1937 in and tens of thousands of Haitians were murdered at the mandate of the Dominican government. And so I'm in my 20s. I read this book, and it just kind of blew me away. Because, first of all, I'm Dominican, and I had never heard about the Parsley Massacre, even though I have. My grandparents had lived through that. My father was significantly older than my mom, and he had lived through it. I had aunts and I had great uncles and people in my family who certainly had lived through it. And I had never heard of it, but I also went to school through halfway through the fifth grade, and I had never learned about this massacre. And so learning about such an important part of my own history through a novel, to me, first of all, it just really lit me up because at that point I had Been taking creative writing classes in undergrad. And I knew that eventually I wanted to be a writer. And. And I was like, oh, my God, this is the power of literature that, like, the things that have been erased, whether purposefully, intentionally or not, like fiction has this power to like, give it life and like, archive it forever. So I was like, thank you, Adrish Dantica, who I love, you know. And then on the other hand, I was also thinking a lot about, like, every time I would travel back to the Dominican Republic, you know, and I would go to the hotels and like, you cannot go to Punta Cana. There's like different parts now that are being developed throughout the island. And I mean, the people who are raising these incredible structures are Haitians, and they are the people that are being deported. They are the people that are being treated like shit in my country. And so for me, it was really important to think about that book as kind of like the first step in a conversation that I felt like I started to have about the history of my country and feeling like, well, what do I have to say to add to this conversation? Like, if my book is, you know, in a line of books that people read about Dominican and Haitian relationships, what is it that I have to contribute that is like, modern and that also feels timely and true to what the real situation is there today?
- [13:54]
Tracy Thomas
Yes, I love that. Okay, so this is sort of in the same world, which is like, this is a book a lot about power. We're at this resort. There's a lot of different people who are coming together. Like this microcosm that you talked about. We've got obviously the tourists, we've got the workers who are sort of like low level, everyday workers. We've got the mid management. We also have like the upper management that we kind of get to hear from. And then there's of course, like the company itself, which we don't like. We have representatives that we hear from, from the company, but like, there's also this huge money making operation that's probably like somewhere in Houston or something, who knows? And. And then we have the locals, we have the people who are not actually part of the Paloma, you know, industrial complex, but who are impacted by it. And throughout the book, these different levels, there's a bunch of sex work that's happening. Different kinds of sex work happens. And obviously people. I am not going to spoil this book, so I have to be a little cagey with you about the details. You kind of have to just follow my train of thought. I'm. I'm not gonna ruin the book for you, I promise, but just stick with me here. There's a lot of different sort of ways that sex work shows up in the book, and some of it is the ways in which I think many people might think about tourism and sex work, which is a guy goes off the resort looking for sex. Like, there's a whole industry like that, but there's also these less explicit sex interactions that happen. And I'm curious, like, what was that that you wanted to get into? Why include that in the book? What is interesting about presenting us with sex work in these ways for you?
- [15:41]
Clavis Natera
Yeah, I mean, so first of all, thank you for. For touching it, because I've been having a lot of conversations with a lot of people during my book tour and in these podcasts, and I have to tell you, Tracy, a lot of people don't want to touch it. And I think part of it is because people don't want to. Sometimes I think it's hard to, like, know how to talk about something that's so delicate. But I also think that there's, like, this hesitancy still that lives within, like, proper or. I don't know. I don't even know what to call it. I feel like sometimes it just seems, like, very difficult for people to think about, like, these kind of uglier parts of it. But it felt to me like very important to touch it. I mean, it was the same way that I felt about not thinking or talking about the Haitian Dominican dynamic. To me, it seemed just. It would be like the biggest missed opportunity, and then it would make the story almost untrue, you know, to not touch it. So the first thing that I was thinking about was, you know, I interviewed a lot of people that worked in hotels and resorts over the course of the last few years, and one of the things that became really clear to me when I talk to men was that men are kind of expected to please the tourists, and it's not a financial transaction. And so it made me think a lot about labor. Because the work is a workbook. Yes.
- [17:06]
Tracy Thomas
It's a job.
- [17:06]
Clavis Natera
Yeah. It's a labor novel. And I was thinking a lot about exploitation, of course, because the book is about power, and the other side of power is exploitation. And I was thinking about, oh, my goodness, like, the fact that I'm talking to some of these men, and they just see it as a matter of course, like, nobody's going to talk about it, but it's important for them to keep these tourists, and especially these very wealthy women happy. And I just thought that it was kind of a trip to think about sex work from the perspective of a man. And it's so interesting, Tracy, because the other thing I didn't want to do was to have a male perspective, because I'm very committed to writing about women and from the perspective of women. And it seemed to me like, if I'm going to talk about. About power, like, what better way to talk about power in. In really crazy power dynamics than to talk about sex and to talk about sex perspective of men. And I also feel like we've just. All of us have become kind of numb to the fact that women suffer and that the sex trade disproportionately affects women and children. Right. Like, I just think that people don't want to even see it as a crime very often when. When those kinds of stories are shown in fiction. And so I thought that there would be a freshness to the take Pablo, who is the character that we're talking about here? You'll learn very. That's not a spoiler, because you learn in the first five pages that he's, you know, doing really improper and inappropriate behavior with these tourists. And I thought it was just really interesting to think about a young man who has really, you know, drank the Kool Aid. Like, he believes in the structure. He believes in. In this job. He believes that his path to freedom and his path to a better life will absolutely be through this work. And, you know, the company has created a really intricate way for people to, like, have access to upward mobility. And although other people find it very suspicious and don't believe, Pablo believes in it. And he feels like this is his shortcut. His shortcut is, you know, having sex. And I think it's really important to understand that he's not being paid for it. That's, like, a very important.
- [19:15]
Tracy Thomas
I feel like, also what's, like, interesting about Pablo and, like, you know, he has a whole other job at the resort. He's not just like, the resort's not just like, we have a boy for you all to have sex with? Like, no, he's like the bartender, and he, like, does the fish, and he, like, he's on the boat and he's doing all these other things. And then there's also this sort of, like, unstated expectation that he does this. But you said he's doing these really inappropriate things with guests. And I guess my question is, is it inappropriate to, like. I understand it's against the rules of the resort technically. Like, they're saying, like, we don't want you have, like, consorting with the, with the guests, but if it's consenting adults and is he consenting? I guess that's the question. It's like, there's this question of. Because I think it is sort of icky, but on the other side, I'm like, well, he's a grown man. He doesn't have to, but he feels like maybe he should. So I don't know. I'm just curious about that piece of it.
- [20:15]
Clavis Natera
Yeah, I think that's a really interesting take. I have to be honest with you, because part of what I wanted to explore with Pablo is the fact that somebody and you get a sense very early on that Pablo's quite good at the sex. This is someone who knows how to put it down, and the women are there for it. Right. And so there's a part of me that was thinking a lot about how, like, sex is just sexy. Right? Like, and I wanted the book to have this kind of sense of sensuality to it, a seductiveness that comes, and not just from the actual sexual acts, but also, like, the seduction of, like, corporate America. Like, you know, because we understand very early on that Paloma Enterprises, which is the mother company, is an American company. So, you know, this, this book is very centrally concerned with this idea that, like, the reason why we're all working like a bunch of maniacs is because there's something that very satisfying about being successful, and there's something that is very seductive about seeking to continue to be more and more successful. And to me, that whole, like, kind of path and like, that journey for Pablo had to be very seductive because that's what he's after. He's ambitious, and this is the way that he's going to get at it. So I didn't bring, like, a judgment or a morality to it, because I actually do think that people, if you got it flaunted, if you got it, you said, you know, and for him, it has been working. Except, you know, that over the course of this one week, we do get to witness that line. And when the line is crossed, I want people to really think about that. Like, at what point is consent impossible based on the power dynamics of the people involved.
- [21:58]
Tracy Thomas
Right. I mean, so you said this is a book, a labor book, and it certainly is. I also think it's like, like very clearly a power book. I guess power and labor go hand in hand. But you have this moment, which I, I, I flagged it the moment I read it. I keep thinking about it. I've been thinking about it a lot, actually, in relationship to Taylor Swift and her engagement and all of the stuff that's come out about, like, Travis Kelsey and his politics and the whole thing. But there's a moment where Laura, who's like our main. One of our. I guess our. I would say she's the main, main sister. She's. She's middle management. She's. We're with her the majority of the book. But there's something that happens and some of the guests get to sort of like, do the right thing. And she says the moral high ground, like, they are able to exhibit, like, the moral high ground that wealth affords. And I just, I think that is such an interesting and important point. And I just want to hear you talk about it a little bit because I've been thinking about Taylor Swift, but also with like, brands in general, the way that brands are able to, or not able to, like, show up in moments. I think about it, obviously, like, with Ms. Rachel and, and Palestine and the genocide that's going on, like, so I'm just curious what you. What you think about it just, like, as a topic.
- [23:17]
Clavis Natera
Yes. I mean, I, I think about this all the time. And I feel like one of the biggest moral. I mean, I think that what has been exposed to us since the genocide in Palestine started is. And I think of it as like, going hand in hand for us with like, Black Lives Matter, because what we have seen since 2020, and that's when I started writing this book. I have this really strong sense of an obligation to acknowledge that I don't know that I would have gotten as much money or even a book deal as quickly as I got it had it not been for George Floyd being murdered like this. The United States was going through a reckoning. And it happened to be that my book was talking about gentrification. That's Neruda on the park, like, talking about gentrification, talking about, you know, and I'm always interested in thinking about how people become complicit in the systems that dehumanize them. Like, that's what my first book was about. That's what my second book is about. And so I think what has been exposed to us after looking at the tens of thousands of people that have been murdered at the hands of Israel, is that, oh, my God, the brands are spineless. Right. Just as quickly as the people that are in power now, in power of the government have said diversity bad. And you see how quickly every single university, every single major corporation bent the knee. It Took very little. And I love that Roxane Gay talks about in her newsletter. I think it's really interesting that she very constantly is calling people to task because they are conceding and becoming complicit, like, without even there being an obligation, without anyone even asking you. It's like they are going ahead and agreeing to do these things, like, ahead of time. And so with this book, like, I certainly wanted to, like, expose that and in some ways, and not, like, a judgy way, because I think that makes for boring fiction. Like, I don't think social justice books are very interesting most of the time. No. So I'm more interested in being like, what is more fascinating than the person who actually becomes complicit. Like, to me, I think that's fascinating. You said it. Because I was just, you know, I laugh all the time every time you show a picture of that woman with.
- [25:38]
Tracy Thomas
Her, like, flat boots, flat boots.
- [25:41]
Clavis Natera
Just like, tracy, I'm here for it. But I also feel like there's something to me about just, like, the timing. There's like, of course we know that, you know, dude has, like, some kind of endorsement that has just been announced, and it's like. And we know that because we've seen it happen. We've seen it happen across the board with celebrities who, like, are so afraid to even say, what's happening in Palestine is an atrocity. Every single one of us should be ashamed of ourselves that this is happening on our watch, right? And at the same time, you see people who just are not touching it, are not talking about it, and the reason they're not talking about it is for financial gain, right? And so, like, to me, that part of it is never gonna get boring to me to think about and talk about how we. Like, this is what capitalism has done to all of us, right? Like, it has enamored us. It has seduced us to a point where we're willing to, like, forget our own humanity in order to get the paycheck, in order to, like, continue to enjoy the privileges that come with an easier life.
- [26:47]
Tracy Thomas
And I think, like, I think the part that I think about a lot is, like, there's an expectation that people who have less are, like, good, right? Like, that they're, like, morally pure and they're gonna do the right thing, right? Like, it's like. It's like, oh, the noble, you know, homeless person or whatever. Like, these ideas that, like, if you're rich, you're. You're bad. But I think that what's interesting about what you what you say in the book, the moral high ground that wealth affords is that the opposite is actually true. You are so much safer to say something that is, like, morally right when you have money and you have the platform and you have the ability, and yet the expectation is that, like, of course Taylor Swift's not going to say anything. And it's like, wait a second, She's. She's a billionaire. Like, she's got more money than she would be able to spend. I don't know. Someone does the math. And it's like, if you spend $100,000 a second, you still would, you know, live another 50 years. You wouldn't spend all your money, whatever. But it's just like, the idea. The expectation that, like, people of lower class are supposed to be pure and good and hardworking and all of these things, however they're the first ones to be expended in these moments is. Is really like. I don't know. That's the part that I just think about all the time. It's like, it would be nothing for someone like Taylor Swift to say anything, right? Like, it would be nothing to her even if she lost half of her fan base. She already is a billionaire. What does she need the money for? What, like, the hoarding of the wealth and, like, the. The inability. And this isn't just her. This is so many people. But it's like, you don't want to say anything because you're worried you're going to lose opportunities. But what do you need the money for now? Like, at what point is the. Is it enough and we're in the system where, like, it's never enough? If I had $1 billion, do you know how fast this podcast would be shut down? It would be instant. You'd never hear my voice again, ever. I promise. Unless I knew you in real life. Unless you had my phone number, I'd be off social media. I'd be off email. I would, like, find me on my island, babe. Like, I don't have cell service. You have to fly to my island if you want to talk to me. And instead, we get people who are just, like, constantly doubling down on horrible things so that they can make more money. Well, what do you need it for?
- [29:14]
Clavis Natera
Yes, I mean, I feel like, again, it's just all of us are part of the same system. I don't think that just because rich people are rich and we're, you know. And I think it's also important to, like, mention that, like, the Grand Paloma Resort really caters to like the uber rich. So this isn't like your Punta Cana resort that, like, you and I are going to. Okay.
- [29:33]
Tracy Thomas
It's not the club Met I went to as a child.
- [29:35]
Clavis Natera
It's not my love. It is not.
- [29:38]
Tracy Thomas
Well, I was imagining the hot pink buildings. Okay, so allow me.
- [29:42]
Clavis Natera
I think that's okay. I think it works because all of us have been in this dynamic where hopefully, I'm hoping that people who, like, travel back to the Dominican Republic or other places are looking around now through new eyes after reading this book. But I feel like all of us are part of the same. Like, you know what, what capitalism makes us do is that it makes us, like, it's impossible to become satisfied. It's like, you know, you can be richer and have more money because there's Elon, right? And there's, like, now there's, like, Trump, right? And his family that are, like, becoming billionaires at, like, why? Because they exploited, right, Racism, classism, and all these things. And so it's like the idea that people are going to be greedy is the point. I mean, that's the whole point. The point is that the more you have, the more you should have. And I mean, the last thing I'll say to this, because I think this question that you're posing is just fascinating for me, and I love thinking about it, is that, you know, there was a point when I was working my corporate job and I was part of the, you know, I was in upper management in an insurance company. And one of the things that I learned through my own experience is that at a certain point, you really do disengage with, like, your moral fiber, like, whatever moral compass we have. I think it's very easy through work to disengage because somebody is paying you and it is your job. So there's. There was certain points where I felt like, and what I had to do for the majority of the 20 years I worked in insurance, which is do my job. There was nothing at any point where I felt like, oh, there's a line and I'm crossing it. And then at a certain point, I took a job where we were outsourcing a lot of tasks and we were laying off, like, hundreds of people that had worked loyal to this company for decades, and we were shutting down their office. And what I thought was really interesting is that this process of outsourcing tasks to India was actually costing millions of dollars, and so we wouldn't realize a savings for, like, five years. But it was understood that, like, when you started saving the Money, it would be worth it. Like laying off all these people. And I mean, I felt wrecked because I know that from my own upbringing and my own mom's experience. Experience that like some people, like, there's no net, no one is there at you when you lose your job. Like, the result of losing your job is catastrophic for certain people. But I did my job, you know, and I was excellent at it, you know, And I got like a great bonus that year because I was so focused. And so there was something to me at a certain point, right? And I remember, like, during the worst of this, my son Julian was going through a failed bone marrow transplant the second time we had to do it. I was laying people off constantly. And I just remember that there was this moment that I felt like it was so heartless. And it was like my boss at the time had asked me to give her a proposal because I was really good at Org redesign and I had a knack for efficiencies and I had been licensed with project management degrees and different things. And so she had asked me to present to her, and this is so cold blooded. She asked me to present to her a version of the organization that eliminated my job. And at the time, like, I honestly was sitting there, my kid was in the hospital recovering from like a second bone marrow transplant. He had almost died because he had a burst appendix during this. And the only person that knew was that boss, because, you know, I didn't want to tell people my business. I'm pretty superstitious. So I also was like, the first one failed. I don't want anyone to know about the second one. And oh my goodness, that woman asked me to put together this, this proposal that would eliminate my job. And I honestly sat there and did it. And I gave her like two really good options. And then I said to her, like, you're putting your own job at risk. Because I was the second senior person to her. And I was like, if you take my level out, there's no reason for you to be a vice president. Like, you would be flat and like, you're. This is not gonna go the way you think. And I just remember her looking at me thinking I was being self interested. But I feel like something broken me through that interaction because it was like she knew I was the one with the insurance in my. In my family because my husband was, you know, working a different kind of job. And so anyway, so like, there was something to me in that moment where I was like, oh, like, this is how it works. Like, my heartlessness Right. Like I had developed a heartlessness when it's right. And then when she said to me, like, lay yourself off pretty much. And I did it and, you know, it didn't come to be like, I was able to get transferred to another job, but I just remember, like going through that experience and thinking a lot about power dynamics and thinking a lot about, like, who gets to take a high moral ground. Because even as I was thinking about how cold blooded it was that this woman did this to me, she was the breadwinner, her husband wasn't working, she had three young children. So, you know, like, there was a part of me too that like, oh. Like it makes no sense to me that she's planning to do this, but there's like a reason why she thought I would be like, disposable at that moment. And so, you know, for me, like those years that I spent in corporate America and the kinds of things that I did for the sake of the company and for the sake of my own higher bonus really informed the way that I came at this book. And especially when I was thinking about that scene with Laura, because Laura has been traumatized in her own life and there's a part of her that also wants to inflict humiliation on people that she feels has wronged her, have wronged her. And I think that there's something satisfying about her two Flexing power against people. And so that whole thing that you said about, you know, I read so much Caribbean literature and it makes me crazy that like the poor people are always the people who are like, morally superior, because that hasn't been my experience. I don't think anybody's morally superior when it comes to, to these kind of power structures.
- [36:08]
Tracy Thomas
Right? Certainly no like blanketed class. Like there are good people and there are bad people all over the place. We're going to take a quick and then we'll be back. How is it September already? I literally have no clue. Hello, it is I, Tracy Thomas, host of the Stacks. You know, we're talking about books all the time over here. And if we're not talking about books enough for you, allow me to introduce you to the Stacks Pack on Patreon and my newsletter unstacked on Substack. These are places where you can get. Get inside access to the show. Not to mention my non fiction reading guide, which came out at the start of the summer, is only available until September 22nd. And you have to join one of these communities to get it. I'm just throwing that out there, but you might want to Know what is the Stacks Pack? Well, the Stacks Pack is a community for book lovers. We do book club meetups, we have a private discord. We do our mega reading challenge all year long. It's a place to help you push your reading goals, help you find new recommendations, plus plus you get an exclusive bonus episode every month over on Unstacked. That's my newsletter. So that's me writing to you about celebrity gossip, hot takes, book recommendations, I even do a monthly non fiction column and you also get that bonus episode. But even if you don't have a few dollars to spare, over on Unstack, there's a free option just for you. Listen, making this podcast is a huge team effort. And by supporting the Patreon and the Substack, you allow me to support myself and my Amazon amazing team, my assistant, my editor. All of us are able to make a living because of the incredible support we get from you all. So if you're Interested, head to patreon.com the stacks to join the stacks pack and go to Tracy thomas.substack.com to subscribe to the newsletter. And listen, if you don't want to write that down, there's links for both of those in the episode descriptions because that is how we do it around here. So if you're looking to meet other book lovers, if you want to support this independent podcast, if you want to come hang out with me in the discord, go to patreon.com/the stacks to join the stacks pack and go to tracy thomas.substack.com to subscribe to the newsletter. And you know, see in the stacks, babes. Okay, listen, I have a secret to confess. I do in fact love online shopping. Okay, maybe that wasn't a secret. You might know that, but nowadays it is so easy. With that little purple Shopify button at the end of checkout. Just a single click and all your payment and shipping information are ready to go. And that right there, that ease is why so many businesses use it to make running your business as easy as the checkout process. Shopify powers 10% of all E commerce in the US so it's safe to say they know a little something something about business. Maybe you're not the most tech savvy. Well, Shopify's got you with hundreds of ready to go templates to match your brand's style. You can tackle all of those important tasks tasks in one place, from inventory to payments to analytics, and a lot more. And when it comes to getting the word out, Shopify has built in marketing and email tools to make it easy to find and keep your new customers. And did I mention that iconic purple shop pay button already? You know, the one that's used by millions of businesses around the world. It's why Shopify has the best conversion checkout on the planet. Your customers already love it. If you want to see less carts being abandoned, it's time for you to head over to Shopify. Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com thestacks go to shopify.com the stacks shopify.com thestacks okay, we're back. I want to talk about actually, like, writing this book. I'm going to cue you up for something that you talked about at the event because it was like my favorite thing you ever said. I mean, maybe not ever, but I loved it. And I want my listeners to hear it, too. We were talking about sort of how you wrote this book, and I'm going to forget, but you talked about melding content and context. Yes, content and context. And I want you to take. I want you to go to the place that you're gonna go. I just want. I'm just queuing you up. So tell the people about that and what you did with this book.
- [40:36]
Clavis Natera
Yes, thank you. I mean, it's also one of my favorite things I ever said. I came up with it and I was like, that's a good one. So, you know, one of the things that I have been trying to teach my students, especially my graduate students that are working on whole books, is that as literary writers, our job first and foremost is that whatever the content of the book is, so that means, like, what the story is about to meet the context of the book, which is the structure of the book. And so, you know, one of the things that Tracy and I were talking about was really like, this idea that the book is being called a thriller or like, suspense. And I certainly felt like it was very, very important for this book to be so suspenseful. But the reason that the book is suspenseful wasn't because I was necessarily trying to change genre. I don't actually know a lot of the conventions of thrillers or suspense books. Part of the reason why I became very invested in this book being what it is is because I was thinking about the book being a labor book. And for me, it was so important to think about, well, if the workers are working the whole time and. And this is a book, what is the job of the reader in the book? And for me became really important and you were the A student. So the job of the reader is what to read. Thank you very much. I can't tell you how many times I've asked this question at events and everybody looks at me blank eyed. But it's like your job as a reader is to read. And so one of the things that I was thinking about was, you know, I want, you know, the context of this book to be such that there is no way that a reader can put this book down and that for the duration of this narrative, you know, I'm hooking you and hooking you and hooking you so that you read one more page, you know, and I gave a lot of thought to that and I gave a lot of like, work. And especially when it came like you and I were talking about the history and I thought a lot about, well, how do I make the history which is really fraught in the Dominican Republic between Haiti and the Dominican Republic. How can I make that a part of the story in a way that doesn't feel slow? Because I don't want it to be a historical fiction book. That would slow down the entire prospect of the content of the book meeting its context. And so I'm very, very excited that you could see what I was talking about because there's a part of me that feels like whenever we're trying to be ambitious and, and full stunts, there's like just. And I am so happy that I'm older in my life that like, I feel like anytime that I see people flattening my efforts and my talents, it doesn't face me the way I think it would have faced me before. Because it's not to say that there's anything wrong with genre fiction. Like, I read romances, I've read, you know, all kinds of books that would fall into genre. But to me it's also like especially dangerous when I think, you know, literary writers, especially women of color, are attempting to do something that takes quite a bit of skill. And then all of a sudden people can like kind of swipe it away by, by giving it a label. And then also like not calling the fact that there's like masterful things that are at work in the way that we're exercising, like our talent and our stories.
- [43:57]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. I mean, I think like one of the things I wish more authors understood about readers because I think, think while many authors are readers, when they're writing, they are extremely disconnected from their reader self and from their reader audience.
- [44:14]
Clavis Natera
Yeah.
- [44:14]
Tracy Thomas
Is that we want to read something that we want to read. Like we Want you to give us something that we want to keep reading. Do you know, like, and I think especially this book. Like, I was so desperate to know what was going to happen to the characters. I mean, I text you during the book and was like, I know you're not gonna do this. Like, I. I mean, I literally was sitting there being like, is Clavis the kind of person that would do this? Yes or no? Like, thinking about who I was judging you as a human, basically, as I was reading the book, but because I was just desperate to get to the end of it. And I think, like, to do that well is so extremely difficult. And it's actually the reason that I. Even though I don't talk about it a lot, I almost always like, Like a thriller or a suspense because I really like plot. The problem is a lot of them are extremely poorly written. Like, the writing is just so bad, I cannot handle it. But when like a book like Gone Girl sign me up, I'm. I'm there all day. And like, same with your book. The comp that I told you when we were together that I. I think I've mentioned to some people in the stacks pack is like, I think this book reminds me a lot that in. In pacing and in sort of like depth and history and like the social commentary is God of the woods by Liz Moore, which is this fantastic literary suspense mystery. I don't know. I'm so. I don't know the difference between those things, but. But it's like when a writer is able to build the suspense and also tell the story beautifully. I'm like, I don't think. I don't think you can beat that. I think, think. I think we talked about this too. Danzy Senna, I think she's writing some of the best thrillers out, but nobody calls them thrillers because her stakes are not like death. Her stakes are like getting a boyfriend or like getting a job writing a book. But to turn something like that into suspense, I just, I'm like, I. I love that. I love that. And I don't. I think you're right. We're not giving people enough credit for. For writing those kinds of books.
- [46:26]
Clavis Natera
Yes. And I think that the. And it's right. I mean, I don't. I don't blame, like, the literally literary. The literary establishment because, you know, I think so much of what good literature supposed to do is, you know, is supposed to be concerned with, like, highbrow art and the human experience. Experience. And it's supposed to be slow. Right. But I Just feel like we are right now. And I, and I say this to everybody that will listen to me. I teach classes for very little money because I'm very invested in bringing literary writers kind of to the forefront of the idea that like, entertainment is not a four letter word. And I do think that maybe it is because I come from a culture where in my family, if you're wack and you're doing a poor job telling a story, people are going to be like, shut up. And they're going, they're just going to over talk you, they're going to get louder and they're just. You're not going to get to keep talking if you're boring. And so this idea that like, in some ways the books that get rewarded or the books that get thought of as like the highest manifestation of literary artistry are the ones that are dense, unreadable. You know, a lot of the people who I think are at the top of what I would consider to be kind of the hierarchy of writers in the United States are people who, like most people have never heard of most people haven't finished their books. And I just think that's a shame. Like, I'd much rather have readers who want to read the book and who will keep reading it. And I am not sacrificing language. I am not sacrificing complex. I mean, this book, to me, so much of what I wanted to accomplish was character. You know, like, I was like, this is what I want to do. My ambition is to create this thorny, messy, complicated characters to put all of their desires, you know, in like competing against each other. And I want to like, show something that I think hasn't been done when it comes to like this kind of literature and this kind of work. And so the fact that people are like, this is a binge read. I'm like, yes, I did my job, you know, because what I was trained to do was the other kind of book, right, where like the language, the line level, you know, and, and I did. I was a very good student. I learned how to do all those things. So I just want to invite my peers to like really kind of push against this idea that somehow our work becomes cheaper if the reader enjoys it. Like, are you kidding me? Is this really supposed to do?
- [49:06]
Tracy Thomas
I mean, yeah, I mean, I think we see there's like this disconnect between like the critic and the art so often and so many different forms of art. Like, I think about movies, like the movies that are blockbusters versus the movies that win The Oscars. I think that's, like, so obvious. And obviously, you know, I. I love criticism. I love. I love to opinion about a piece of art. Like, you know, don't let me make. Don't let me act like I don't like crit. But I do think there's this disconnect about, like, what is good and what is enjoyable and, like, what do people want versus what do critics want? And, you know, those things can be at odds with one another, and that's totally fine and allowed. But books are in crisis for a lot of reasons. And I think one of them is that writers are sometimes writing to the critic and not writing to themselves. Like, to being true to themselves, but also to their reader. And, like, thinking about, like, what would a reader want? And obviously some readers like, like a very moody literary. Nothing happens. And like, to those people, they are getting what they want. But not everybody can write that book, you know, like a bad one of those. Oh, boy. Yeah, that is brutal.
- [50:16]
Clavis Natera
But I think it comes back to the same thing we're talking about before. And the fact is that, like, the history of the novel, the history of literary. The literary works of art is that it was like wealthy white men writing for each other, right? So when we think about, like, the history of literature and when I think about who has been able to infiltrate, like, you know, you're doing your class on Shakespeare, and you and I both know that, like, Shakespeare became huge because Shakespeare was, like, meant for the stage, meant for entertainment, you know, and so.
- [50:46]
Tracy Thomas
Like, for the people. Regular boroughs.
- [50:49]
Clavis Natera
Regular people. Like, the reason that it's funny, the reason that it's interesting, the reason that it's shocking. Right, Is because it was meant to be interesting, entertaining. And so I feel like it's also kind of like we turn against ourselves. We show ourselves when we say these kinds of works of art, which. The reason that we keep coming back to Shakespeare and we keep producing it and we keep reading it is because it's not only interesting and funny and shocking, but it's also truly reflective of the human condition. It's truly reflective of who we are as human beings. And I think that it's just like we're telling on ourselves and we're like, well, these are the things. But, you know, they were written hundreds of years ago versus. Yeah, like, the things that are now that might be doing the same thing that will get little respect.
- [51:36]
Tracy Thomas
Yes. Okay, I have to ask you my signature questions. So we have to, because we're almost out of time. How do you write how many hours a day, how often? Music, rituals, snacks, beverages, candles, special socks, like give a set the scene. What's the vibe?
- [51:50]
Clavis Natera
Well, I feel like I need to like do a little bit of a throwback to like be more entertaining for you. Because I've been thinking about these questions for a long time and I feel like, you know, when I started writing and I was in my 20s, I had an apartment in Heartland and the way that I used to write was like very ritualized. Like I used to drink wine, I used to have, I love sunflower seeds. And so like that would be my snack of choice.
- [52:16]
Tracy Thomas
Okay.
- [52:16]
Clavis Natera
You know, I would like be very moody and that's like single, no kids. Right. Like living my best life in Harlem these days. I couldn't be a more boring writer. Like I got up at 4:30 in the morning, I drink coffee non stop and I drink it black. I don't put anything in my coffee. I'm kind of like a workhorse when it comes to my writing, I think, you know, especially with transitioning from being a full time employee for a corporation and a mom and a wife and all those things where I had to squeeze it into like before the day started and I would get up at 4:30 or 5 and write, you know, and then do the day. Now these days, because I'm a full time writer, like I get to go away to writing retreats and I get to spend, you know, so like my favorite way to write is to be away from my home because my best writing doesn't come when I'm here. I love to just be at a writing retreat and I can write for three or four hour blocks and I do it three times a day. Like I will write for, you know, eight 12 hour days. And that's part of the reason why when I go away and my husband's always like, you know, because what we end up posting on Instagram from the writing retreats is like the walks on the beach, the walks, wood, the, you know, the wine tastings or whatever it is that you're doing when other people are reading their work or presenting their work. But I am a very rigorous writer and sadly no snacks, just coffee.
- [53:43]
Tracy Thomas
Wow, that's. I hate this. For me, I still love you though. So you're lucky you're one of the few. Most people, I would just end the interview and be like, yeah, I get the book, it's fine, gotta go. But you can stay because at least you used to eat sunflower seeds. How do you sort of like preserve your creativity or Tap into your creativity, especially as, like, a workhorse type person. You sit down. Are there days where you're just like, I don't have it. I'm not doing it eight hours today. Like, and if not, how do you get it when you feel like you don't have it?
- [54:19]
Clavis Natera
Yeah, I don't actually believe that, like, your best work comes from inspiration. I think that your best work comes from revision. And I think that your best work comes from, like, getting closer and closer to your characters. I also think that there's something that I have learned, especially with the freedom that comes now from not having to show up, up to a desk job every day, which is that, like, so much of what makes my work better is writing a whole draft and then giving myself time to just, like, percolate on, like, the complexities and, like, find the holes in the story and then coming back and filling them up. So my process is. Honestly, I. First of all, I don't think I can lose it. So I don't believe in writer's block. Like, I just think sometimes the writing is just really shitty, and you have to, like, accept it. There are certain parts of this book, certain scenes where, like, there's a scene that I've been reading, and some people will recognize it. It comes later in the book where Pablo is in a suite with some guests. And one of the things that I wanted to do with that scene was to show how you could just write a scene that just stands for, like, the entire book itself, and how you could write a scene that would be meant to be read out loud to give people a really good time. And so there's a part of me that just. I'm really grateful to the friend of mine who suggested that, because, you know, I remember sitting down and really thinking about, like, what makes me laugh, what's shocking to me. And that scene, I wrote it in one sitting, and I never revived. Like, it came out, like, fully birthed, you know, for what it was meant to be. And there are other parts of this book where, like, I labored over it, and it was, like, over and over. So, yeah, I don't. I'm not one of those people that prescribes to the idea that, you know, like, our talent or our inspiration needs to be cuddled. Like, I think it's just. It's just labor. It is just work. It is just sweat, you know, It's. It's just. You got to sit down, and if it's not great, you make it great. And if it comes out, sometimes it comes out and it's really done. And you also have to have kind of the maturity to, like, know the difference. Like, when something really good, don't touch it. Don't mess it up.
- [56:40]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. I think about art as work a lot, and I. Well, I'm not a writer, so, like, I don't have writer's block or whatever. I do have to write things, and I also don't really believe in it. I do believe that, like, I. I'm like an idea machine. And I do believe that I have terrible ideas sometimes and nobody ever hears them and they never see the light of day, but that, like, the whole practice of having ideas is so that I might get a good one.
- [57:09]
Clavis Natera
Yes.
- [57:09]
Tracy Thomas
Or, like, that I might get something that I could work with. And sometimes, like you said, like, I'll have a perfect idea from the beginning, and then sometimes I will have a really bad idea for a really long time, you know, And I'm just like, I can't get this idea out of my head, but it's not good, and eventually it'll go away. But, like, I think a lot of people have an idea about artists or people who create things that, like, you're like. That you need to labor over everything. And I feel like much more. Some things are good and some things are bad. And, like, it's my job is just to come up with the ideas, or, like, in your case, to write the scene or write the sentence and then to deal with the judgment of the thing later. Like, I don't judge my ideas as they come. I just sort of, like, have a mental thing where I'm like, oh, that's something. And then if I keep thinking about. I'm like, like, oh, that is something I could, you know, but that I don't actually have a sense of good or bad as I'm creating. I have a sense of good or bad as I'm sort of, you know, revising or, like, dealing or, like, trying to flesh it out.
- [58:09]
Clavis Natera
Yes. I love that. And I'll tell you one other thing, which is that part of the reason why I stopped drinking wine as I wrote is because I was convinced everything was genius. I mean, I spent so much time in my 20s, like, with my friends. We'll go to, like, like, a bar. We would go wherever we were going for a writing date, and we would just be, like, drinking bottles of wine. And at a certain point, I was just like, oh, my God, this is the best thing that's ever been written in the whole history of humanity. And the next day, it would be like garbage. Yes. I think there's something too. And I'm grateful for those days, honestly, because I think there's something to me about the idea or the seed or, like, what brought you to that. And, like, sometimes you throw it away. I've thrown hundreds of pages of my work away because I knew that it wasn't serving the narrative. And it might have been good writing, but it wasn't just serving the story.
- [58:59]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah. I also cannot drink when I'm working. Like. Like, when I. Like when I do the tour or whatever. When I do a live show. I don't drink before. I often can't drink after actually, either. Like, I just. My energy doesn't allow for that. I'm too controlling. You know, live is hard. Live. Live is hard. And I don't like to feel loose at all when I'm live. I like to feel really, like.
- [59:25]
Clavis Natera
Gripping. Gripping.
- [59:26]
Tracy Thomas
Yes. I'm like, every moment, holding on for dear life. I gotta be clear.
- [59:30]
Clavis Natera
I don't know.
- [59:31]
Tracy Thomas
People, like, comedians, you know, they get, like, wasted before they go on stage, and I'm like, I don't know. I don't know how anybody. I know people do it, but I don't know how anybody does. Like, I could. I just could never. I mean, that's the other thing that's so fun about process. Like, everyone has their own thing, but for the kind of person that I am, the way that I'm wild, wound. Getting less wound is bad. Bad for my performance. Okay, we're basically out of time, but I need to know the word you can never spell correctly on the first try.
- [60:01]
Clavis Natera
Oh, my goodness. What is the word? You know what? Acknowledge. I can never.
- [60:06]
Tracy Thomas
That's one of mine. Acknowledges impossible acknowledgment. Acknowledgments are my favorite part of the book. They're literally my favorite part of every book. Book. Even if I hate the book, I'm, like, made it to the acknowledgments. Can't spell it.
- [60:19]
Clavis Natera
Can't spell it.
- [60:20]
Tracy Thomas
Can't spell it.
- [60:21]
Clavis Natera
I feel like I just misspelled it today. I was, like, trying to write somebody, and I'm like, why is this possible? I'm such a good speller.
- [60:28]
Tracy Thomas
Do you know what I just realized? Does your book have acknowledgments?
- [60:30]
Clavis Natera
It does.
- [60:31]
Tracy Thomas
I got the. That's the one thing I got with the. With the arc. There's no acknowledgments in it.
- [60:35]
Clavis Natera
Gotta find.
- [60:36]
Tracy Thomas
I gotta find it. I gotta go get it. I'll go get the real one. Okay, we gotta tease this to people. There's another Paloma. It's coming. Can you tell us a little bit about it?
- [60:50]
Clavis Natera
Yes. I am, like I said, fascinated by workplace dynamics. So for the next installment of Paloma, we are going to be sitting inside the mothership. So it is about the Paloma Enterprises, and the hotel where it actually takes place is also in the Caribbean, and they are specializing in medical tourism. So I'm very interested. And please, if you're out there, because I have been asking people to give me everything they think I should know about Curacao. I'm writing also, Tracy, about an island I've never been to.
- [61:31]
Tracy Thomas
Oh, yes.
- [61:32]
Clavis Natera
I was.
- [61:33]
Tracy Thomas
Are you gonna go? I feel like you need to go.
- [61:35]
Clavis Natera
It's research. I told my husband, we're going next month. We're going in October. I was like, listen, I have to go to Curacao, like, six times in the next year. And he was like, okay, this sounds a little overboard.
- [61:43]
Tracy Thomas
Yeah.
- [61:44]
Clavis Natera
But I was really interested because I visited so many islands, and I was thinking about, like, just the Caribbean as this kind of hub of commerce and financial misdeeds. And I was thinking a lot about how everybody knows, you know, the Cayman Islands. Everybody knows Grand Cayman, but a lot of people don't know about Curacao. And anyway, Curacao has an interesting history with the Dominican Republic, which I think will make for a very juicy experience for my protagonist. So, yeah. So medical tourism, Curacao. If anybody has interesting things, they think I should know. As I'm going into the second book, second Paloma book. I welcome it. I welcome all the tips.
- [62:28]
Tracy Thomas
Wait, where is Enterprises Center? Are they in New York?
- [62:31]
Clavis Natera
Oh, my God. Like, I'm so glad you're asking me this, because I. I did not. I've not thought that through.
- [62:37]
Tracy Thomas
So I think they should be in, like, Houston. I feel like they should be somewhere in Texas or, like. I don't know.
- [62:42]
Clavis Natera
I like that suggestion. I like.
- [62:43]
Tracy Thomas
Or like, maybe like, somewhere random in Florida. Like St. Petersburg, Florida. Like, where the Scientologists are. I don't. Or like Clearwater. I feel like a lot of. Like, I used to work for a company that was based in Clearwater because that's, like. Like, for tax reasons. I don't know. I feel like. Not New York.
- [63:01]
Clavis Natera
Not New York. No, definitely not the Northeast. I definitely think the Paloma Enterprises has to be somewhere. Yeah, I think you're right. It's in the south, for sure.
- [63:13]
Tracy Thomas
I think so. Okay. For people who love the Grand Paloma Resort, what are some other books you might recommend to them that are in conversation.
- [63:20]
Clavis Natera
Oh, my goodness. So, I mean, first of all, I think everybody should read Edwish Danticat's the Farming of Bones. I mean, that is a book that really did so much for my, for my own work. Jamaica Kincaid wrote a nonfiction book that is called A Small Place. And it is, like, very slender. It's kind of like Jamaica Kincaid talking about tourism and colorism and a lot of issues in the Caribbean. And just I find her brain to be just incredible. I mean, I read every single Jamaica Kincaid book in order to write my book, this book, because I just find that she knows how to write complicated women like nobody else. And she has always kind of blurred the lines between genre, between fiction and nonfiction. She's very often talked about the fact that a lot of her protagonists are her. And I just find that fascinating. So Small Plays is a book that I think, I think technically is really just incredible. And then also content wise, I think it's just really interesting, like the way that she thinks and talks about tourism in the Caribbean. Shout out to all my friends who I love. I think Angie Cruz, how not to Drown in a Glass of Water. I think even though it's like a story that takes place in America, I think it has so many emotional truths about what it means to be like, part of, like, a working class and, and just being treated badly, you know, by like, the systems that you're trying to uphold. And I love, I love everything Angie Cruz does. So I love.
- [64:55]
Tracy Thomas
Okay, if you could have one person dead or alive read this book, who would you want it to be?
- [65:00]
Clavis Natera
It would have to be Toni Morrison. Yeah, Yeah. I, I, I mean, I know it's like now it's cliche because so many of us consider, like, Toni Morrison to be seen so formative, but I just think that, like, the first real book that, like, helped me to understand my place in the world was the Bluest Eye. And I feel like the horrors that I was living through as a young child at that time with violence and sexual abuse. I don't know that I would have been so clear eyed both about the fact that, like, the world was so corrosive, but also, like, kind of the power of art and book in, like, helping you through. Like, the book itself, I think is so beautiful because I know a lot of people think of this book as being so tragic and it is, but I think toward the end there's something so beautiful about like, that kind of comfort you get from like, the imagination and Escaping horror through the imagination. That. I mean, I read the book every year, and I just love it. And, you know, I remember toward the end of, you know, Toni Morrison's life, the day that I found out she died, I had been working at my corporate job in New Jersey away from home, and I had to leave. I was like, oh, my God. I felt like my parent had died. And I remember in that moment, Tracy being like. Like, not only has the whole world lost this genius, but also the fact that she wouldn't read any of my book, which is ridiculous. I'm, like, mourning her, but also mourning myself, because she would not get to read my book, but I definitely would, like, bring her back from the dead.
- [66:33]
Tracy Thomas
To read, you know, this. What the Grand Paloma is sort of in conversation with is Tar Baby a little bit. Right?
- [66:40]
Clavis Natera
I like.
- [66:41]
Tracy Thomas
So, I mean, I thought island sort of setting, and then, like, the. The different classes coming together. And it also sort of has those, like, really not suspenseful, but those scenes where you're like, I have to read this. Like, I can't stop. I sort of feel like they're. They're definitely in conversation to me.
- [66:58]
Clavis Natera
Yeah. I mean, I think just every single book that Toni Morrison has written, that she wrote has had such a. An outsized impact on me. And so I was thinking a lot about. There was a version of this book, actually, where Elena talked about Song of Solomon. I was talking a lot about, you know, like, Milkman. And so anyway, there was, like, something else, and then I ended up taking it out because I was like, no, that's not the right book for this to be, you know, to be partnered with. But, yeah, no, she's incredible. I still just, like, reread all her books.
- [67:33]
Tracy Thomas
Who else is incredible? Clavis Natera. Thank you so much for being here, people. You can get the Grand Paloma Resort wherever you get your books. I read it off the page, so I can't speak to the audiobook, but I'm sure it's good. You wouldn't have a bad audiobook, I don't think.
- [67:46]
Clavis Natera
Yeah. Great job.
- [67:47]
Tracy Thomas
Thank you so much for being here.
- [67:49]
Clavis Natera
This was so much fun. Tracy, you are just incredible. Thank you for having me. I'm such a fan of yours.
- [67:55]
Tracy Thomas
I'm a fan of yours and everyone else. We will see you in the stacks.
- [68:01]
Clavis Natera
Foreign.
- [68:06]
Tracy Thomas
Thank you all so much for listening, and thank you again to Clavis Natera for joining the show. I'd also like to say a huge thank you to Amelia Posanza for making this episode possible as a reminder, our September Book Club pick is the Lilac People by Milo Todd, which we will discuss on Wednesday, September 24th with Den Michelle Norris. If you love the show the show if you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com the stacks to join the Stacks Pack and check out my newsletter@tracy thomas.substack.com make sure you're subscribed to the Stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts, and if you're listening through Apple Podcasts or Spotify, please leave us a rating and a review. For more from the Stacks, follow us on social media at the Stacks Pod, on Instagram, Threads and TikTok, and check out our website@thestaxpodcast.com this episode of the Stacks was edited by Chris Christian Duenas with production assistance from Waikia Freelo. Our graphic designer is Robin McCrite and our theme music is from Tagirigis. The Stax is created and produced by me, Tracy Thomas. Wherever you go, whatever they get into, from chill time to everyday adventures, protect your dog from parasites with Credelio Guattro. For full safety information, side effects and warnings, visit credelioquattrolabel.com consult your vet or call 1-888-545-5973. Ask your vet for Cordelio Cuatro and visit quattrodog.com.