Podcast Summary: The Stacks, Ep. 389 - "The Resort Is a Microcosm of Society" with Cleyvis Natera
Host: Traci Thomas | Guest: Cleyvis Natera | Airdate: September 17, 2025
Episode Overview
In this rich conversation, novelist and essayist Cleyvis Natera joins host Traci Thomas to discuss her latest book, The Grand Paloma Resort. The episode dives into how luxury resorts reflect broader societal dynamics, delving into themes of class, race, labor, power, and complicity. Natera also discusses the nuances of writing within (and against) genre, the incorporation of history into fiction, and the practicalities of her creative process.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Why Set a Novel in a Luxury Resort?
- Resorts as Microcosms of Society
Natera, born in the Dominican Republic, reflects on her shifting position—from local to tourist—and the dynamics this shift revealed.- "A resort is the microcosm of society. When I think about the way that class shows up, the way that race shows up, the way that gender plays into kind of the hierarchies that exist, it's just like too delicious of like a space as a setting for a novel."
(05:58 | Cleyvis Natera)
- "A resort is the microcosm of society. When I think about the way that class shows up, the way that race shows up, the way that gender plays into kind of the hierarchies that exist, it's just like too delicious of like a space as a setting for a novel."
- Personal Experience of Outsider/Insider
As an Afro-Dominican woman, Natera talks about her unique, sometimes invisible position in these spaces and confronting racism both abroad and at home.- "When I show up to these spaces, I very often am confronting a lot of the same racism and prejudices that black people in the diaspora confront all over the place."
(07:50 | Cleyvis Natera)
- "When I show up to these spaces, I very often am confronting a lot of the same racism and prejudices that black people in the diaspora confront all over the place."
2. Race, Class, and the History of the Dominican Republic & Haiti
- Complex Racial Dynamics
Natera discusses the fluidity and complexity of race in the Dominican Republic, particularly in relation to Haitians, and how historical events (e.g., the Parsley Massacre) still reverberate.- "Learning about such an important part of my own history through a novel, to me... it just really lit me up because... the things that have been erased... fiction has this power to like, give it life and, like, archive it forever."
(11:38 | Cleyvis Natera)
- "Learning about such an important part of my own history through a novel, to me... it just really lit me up because... the things that have been erased... fiction has this power to like, give it life and, like, archive it forever."
- Importance of Incorporating History into Fiction
- Book inspiration: The Farming of Bones by Edwidge Danticat.
"That is one of the epigraphs that I used to open the book."
(11:07 | Clavis Natera)
- Book inspiration: The Farming of Bones by Edwidge Danticat.
3. Sex Work, Power, and Labor
- Sex Work Dynamics
Natera unflinchingly addresses the taboo, complexity, and blurred boundaries of sex work within resort labor, especially the covert forms of exploitation and expectation that transcend financial transactions.- "Men are kind of expected to please the tourists, and it's not a financial transaction. And so it made me think a lot about labor. Because the work is a workbook... and the other side of power is exploitation."
(16:08 | Cleyvis Natera) - The depiction is intentionally ambiguous and nonjudgmental, exploring consent within skewed power dynamics.
- "At what point is consent impossible based on the power dynamics of the people involved."
(21:52 | Cleyvis Natera)
- "Men are kind of expected to please the tourists, and it's not a financial transaction. And so it made me think a lot about labor. Because the work is a workbook... and the other side of power is exploitation."
4. Power Structures, Complicity, and Morality
- Wealth, Morality, and the Illusion of the 'Moral High Ground'
The hosts probe the expectation that wealth brings the freedom to act morally, yet often enables—and obscures—complicity.- "The reason why we're all working like a bunch of maniacs is because there's something that is very seductive about seeking to continue to be more and more successful."
(20:42 | Cleyvis Natera) - "All of us are part of the same system... this is what capitalism has done to all of us, right? Like, it has enamored us. It has seduced us to a point where we're willing to, like, forget our own humanity in order to get the paycheck."
(25:06 | Cleyvis Natera)
- "The reason why we're all working like a bunch of maniacs is because there's something that is very seductive about seeking to continue to be more and more successful."
- Firsthand Experiences in Corporate America
Natera recounts her own complicity in layoffs and corporate restructuring, grappling with the emotional toll and the normalization of detachment for survival.- "At a certain point, you really do disengage with, like, your moral fiber... I did my job, you know, and I was excellent at it, you know."
(34:21 | Cleyvis Natera)
- "At a certain point, you really do disengage with, like, your moral fiber... I did my job, you know, and I was excellent at it, you know."
5. Literary Form: Fusing Content and Context
- Melding Literary Craft with Suspense
Natera distinguishes her literary ambitions from genre conventions, emphasizing her focus on making the labor and pace of the novel mirror the relentless consumption of the reader.- "Our job first and foremost is that whatever the content of the book is... to meet the context of the book, which is the structure... I want... the context of this book to be such that there is no way that a reader can put this book down."
(40:38 | Cleyvis Natera)
- "Our job first and foremost is that whatever the content of the book is... to meet the context of the book, which is the structure... I want... the context of this book to be such that there is no way that a reader can put this book down."
- Entertainment is Not a Dirty Word
She challenges the literary establishment’s skepticism toward entertainment, arguing that reader engagement is just as high an achievement as 'high art':- "Entertainment is not a four letter word. And I do think that maybe it is because I come from a culture where... if you're wack and you're doing a poor job telling a story, people are going to be like, shut up."
(47:01 | Cleyvis Natera)
- "Entertainment is not a four letter word. And I do think that maybe it is because I come from a culture where... if you're wack and you're doing a poor job telling a story, people are going to be like, shut up."
6. Writing Practice and Process
- Pragmatic, Workmanlike Approach
Transitioning from her ritualized twenties to her current focused methods, Natera now writes early in the morning, powered by coffee, embracing revision and persistence over inspiration.- "I got up at 4:30 in the morning, I drink coffee nonstop... I'm kind of like a workhorse when it comes to my writing."
(52:10 | Cleyvis Natera)
- "I got up at 4:30 in the morning, I drink coffee nonstop... I'm kind of like a workhorse when it comes to my writing."
- On Creativity and Writer’s Block
- "I don't believe in writer's block... sometimes the writing is just really shitty, and you have to, like, accept it."
(54:54 | Cleyvis Natera) - She extols revision and knowing when not to overwork a good scene.
- "I don't believe in writer's block... sometimes the writing is just really shitty, and you have to, like, accept it."
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
-
On Complicity:
"I'm always interested in thinking about how people become complicit in the systems that dehumanize them just as quickly as the people that are in power now, in power of the government have said diversity bad. And you see how quickly every single university, every single major corporation bent the knee. It took very little."
(00:00 | Cleyvis Natera) -
On History in Fiction:
"This is the power of literature that, like, the things that have been erased... fiction has this power to like, give it life and like, archive it forever."
(11:38 | Cleyvis Natera) -
On Labor and Power:
"The book is about power, and the other side of power is exploitation."
(17:07 | Cleyvis Natera) -
On Literary Ambition:
"My ambition is to create this thorny, messy, complicated characters to put all of their desires... in like competing against each other. And I want to like, show something that I think hasn't been done when it comes to like this kind of literature."
(48:16 | Cleyvis Natera) -
On the Role of Entertainment:
"I'd much rather have readers who want to read the book and who will keep reading it... I am not sacrificing language. I am not sacrificing complexity."
(48:55 | Cleyvis Natera)
Timestamps for Key Segments
- Epigraphs and Historical Inspiration: 10:57–13:54
- Sex Work and Power: 15:41–21:57
- Wealth, Morality, and Complicity: 21:57–36:07
- Corporate America and Moral Compromise: 29:33–36:07
- Craft: Content Meets Context/Suspense as Structure: 40:35–43:57
- Process & Discipline in Writing: 51:50–58:59
- Book Recommendations & Literary Influences: 63:12–66:33
- If Toni Morrison read Grand Paloma: 64:59–66:33
Book Recommendations (for Grand Paloma Resort fans)
- The Farming of Bones by Edwidge Danticat
- A Small Place by Jamaica Kincaid
- How Not to Drown in a Glass of Water by Angie Cruz
Closing Notes
- Upcoming Work: Natera is working on another Paloma novel set in Curacao, centered on medical tourism and corporate power.
- If She Could Pick One Reader:
"It would have to be Toni Morrison." (64:59 | Cleyvis Natera) - Word She Can’t Spell:
"Acknowledge." (60:00 | Cleyvis Natera)
Tone & Style:
The conversation is candid, inquisitive, and unafraid to tackle complex, sometimes uncomfortable issues of race, class, sexuality, and the responsibilities of fiction. Both host and guest bring humor and warmth, even when reflecting on serious themes.
This episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in how fiction can illuminate power structures, complicity, and the inner workings of both labor and literary production—all through the captivating lens of a luxury Caribbean resort.