Ep. 395 DIY Fame with Jade Chang

Summary

The Stacks – Ep. 395: DIY Fame with Jade Chang

Host: Traci Thomas
Guest: Jade Chang (author of What a Time to Be Alive)
Date: October 22, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into Jade Chang’s new novel, What a Time to Be Alive, which follows Lola Treasure Gold, a thirty-one-year-old woman thrust into accidental internet fame after her impassioned speech at a friend’s funeral goes viral. Traci Thomas and Jade examine the intersections between influencer culture, grief, personal reinvention, and the commodification of self. They also touch on writing craft, audience, and the realities behind both literary and influencer economies. Through vulnerable and lively discussion, they expose the double-edged nature of online visibility and unpack the emotional currents underpinning virality, grief, and guidance.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Novel’s Premise and Genesis

• Plot Summary:

  • Lola Treasure Gold, at a low point in her life (age 31; best friend dies), gives a speech at a funeral, which goes viral after being edited and reposted online.
  • The video’s popularity thrusts Lola into the position of a potential self-help influencer—and she must navigate what it means to guide others, all while still deeply steeped in her own grief.

    “She essentially holds forth on what she thinks would be an ideal cult to start...it goes viral. And then all of a sudden, Lola finds that she has all these people kind of following her.” – Jade, [04:03]

• Inspiration and Writing Journey:

  • Jade attempted this novel over 20 years ago just after college—originally set before widespread social media; an early draft, hand-written in a notebook, was lost.
  • The rise of social media and its democratizing of fame provided renewed relevance and motivation to revisit and rewrite the story.

    “Back in the past, people were occasionally suddenly thrust into fame...but every person did not go through life kind of thinking that it could happen to them.” – Jade, [10:13]

2. Influencer Culture & DIY Fame

• The Ubiquity of Influencer Aspirations:

  • Chang and Thomas agree everyone is, in some form, engaged in DIY fame.

    “DIY fame, baby. It’s true.” – Traci, [10:50]

  • Discussion on how the lines between living and ‘posting’ have blurred; virality feels accessible to all.

• Originality vs. Imitation in Influencing:

  • The distinction between authentic influencers with a true point of view, and those simply regurgitating trends.

    “There’s no point of view...what is important for people who are successful as influencers is that they have a point of view about the thing in which they’re influencing.” – Traci, [14:03]

• Satire vs. Earnestness:

  • The novel resists pure satire, opting for a more emotionally grounded exploration:

    “There’s a version of this book that is like satire. And then there’s the version you wrote ... it’s definitely like a heart book.” – Traci, [30:07]

  • Some elements, like depictions of the influencer economy and certain parodies, carry satirical undertones, but grief remains central.

3. Grief as Core Motif

• Centrality of Loss:

  • Chang insists that Lola’s journey into internet fame is inseparable from her grief; every story turn is meant to be “emotionally earned.”

    “You feel like you’re interacting with the world in a different way ... you’re also...you do have this sense that life is short, you don’t know what’s going to happen. Let me try.” – Jade, [17:30]

  • The co-existence of pain and strange delight in grief is explored, capturing the unexpected “pleasure” in shared mourning:

    “We never talk about how there’s a corner of grief that feels like pleasure...To experience something so overwhelming that there’s no room in your body for a single other thing...It’s a kind of love.” – Traci quoting Jade’s novel, [18:10]

• Literary Approach:

  • The aim was to interrogate grief from all possible angles, challenge “taboo” feelings, and seek honesty in emotional depiction.

4. The Writer’s Craft: Voice, Audience, & Process

• Authentic Voice:

  • Written entirely in first person (a first for Chang); she explored different registers to find one that balanced cleverness and sincerity.

    “I went through a few different ... trying to get at that thing that felt real...when she was writing a post...a more self-conscious turn of phrase...she would...want people to know she’s smart, you know?” – Jade, [24:59]

• Relationship with Online Writing:

  • Chang is less judgmental of “online writing” than Thomas (who admits she hates and does it anyway). She prizes the immediacy and authenticity that online writing can enable.

• Reflection on Audience:

  • Chang’s experiences with her earlier novel (The Wangs vs. The World) taught her she can’t predict her readers.

    “You do not know who your audience is...the range of people...it was thrilling, actually.” – Jade, [27:13]

  • She now aims to respect the reader’s time, focusing on emotionally earning their engagement rather than targeting a niche.

• Writing Structure and Process:

  • The novel is structured over a single calendar year, each month as a chapter—providing a sense of pace, seasonality, and emotional arc.

    “I need a superstructure...with a year...I had a structure I could then slot in the emotional ups and downs and the plot arcs within.” – Jade, [37:05]

  • Jade writes in communal settings; “Pomodoro Posse” is her writing group with other LA-based authors (Angela Flournoy, Asia Gable, etc.), embracing a collaborative, structured ‘work-burst’ approach.

    “I am not a great worker. I have a really hard time working at home...give me noise and somebody else’s desk...So I asked several friends...” – Jade, [42:04]

5. Naming, Details, and Character Construction

• On “Lola Treasure Gold”:

  • The main character’s name originated from a blend of cultural influences and maximalist sensibilities. Treasure is a common endearment in Chinese families; the last name Gold, a translation/adaptation of a Chinese surname, is part of the character’s backstory.

    “I like a name that packs a punch...her mom is ready to just give her a Chinese name...but there is another influential caretaker...Treasure is a very common nickname in Chinese...her actual Chinese last name...she changes it to the English.” – Jade, [35:22]

• Astrological Details:

  • Lola’s birthday is in December (Sagittarius).

    “I 100% thought about it in the sense that...I didn’t want to make her a Gemini and have people read so much into that Gemini designation...” – Jade, [41:22]

6. Book Recommendations and Literary Kin

• Unexpected Book Influences:

  • Jade: Tao Te Ching (Dao De Jing) inspired some of her thinking; she also recommends works by Ken Liu, Ursula Le Guin (on Taoism), and Margo’s Got Money Troubles by Rufi Thorpe.

    “If this book came out of any book, it is that...” – Jade, [53:09]

• Comparable Themes:

  • What a Time to Be Alive is in dialogue with books that approach internet fame, the economics of influence, and self-undermining self-help culture.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I really, really wanted every story turn to feel so emotionally earned.” – Jade, [00:00]

• “Did you feel attacked or did you feel seen?” – Jade, playfully teasing Traci about recognizing herself in influencer culture, [05:56]

• “You can just, like, put yourself out there. DIY fame, baby. It’s true.” – Traci, [10:49]

• “I think we really seek emotion. You know, I think we...want to be filled with emotion. And that is especially in those moments where you have a shared grief.” – Jade, [19:00]

• “You do not know who your audience is. Like, the range of people. It was thrilling, actually.” – Jade, [27:13]

• “There’s a version of this book that is like satire. And then there’s the version that you wrote that is like, very—it’s like big hearted.” – Traci, [30:07]

• “I like a name that packs a punch...Lola Treasure Gold.” – Jade, [35:22]

• “We would gather...during the Pomodoro times, which are 45 minutes apiece, where we’re working. If we have any funny comments or little bits of gossip or questions, Emma makes us write it down on the agenda...” – Jade, on her writing group, [44:43]

• “My favorite is...a slow beer I love to have. Truly a beer that takes an hour and a half to two hours to drink.” – Jade, on writing snacks, [48:18]

• “Embarrass is so hard. I can’t spell embarrassed.” – Traci, [49:18]

• “If you could have one person dead or alive read this book, who would you want it to be?”
  “...I guess my answer would be Maxine Hong Kingston, who was the first Asian American author that I read when I was younger, who wrote a book that I felt, like, blown away by...” – Jade, [55:41]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Book Summary and Premise: [03:09]
• Influencer Culture and Personal Reflections: [05:21–15:22]
• On Grief as Motivation and Motif: [16:04–20:19]
• Craft, Voice, and Audience: [21:44–30:07]
• Satire, Heart, and Book’s Tone: [30:07–32:05]
• Naming Characters & Personal Process: [35:01–38:35]
• Writing Group & Pomodoro Process: [41:44–46:01]
• Writing Snacks & Fun Questions: [47:40–49:40]
• Book Recommendations & Literary Kinship: [52:43–54:44]
• Who Should Read the Book: [55:41]

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Tone & Takeaways

Jade Chang and Traci Thomas foster an atmosphere of conviviality, candor, and intellect, with much laughter and mutual respect (as well as a healthy dose of self-deprecation). Listeners leave with a richer understanding of how internet fame and grief can intersect, how novels navigate between satire and ‘heart,’ and how the work of writing is both solitary and deeply communal.

For readers and writers interested in the emotional realities of online culture, the role of grief in personal transformation, and the hidden architecture of novels, this episode is essential listening.

Transcript

[A]

I really, really wanted every story turn to feel so emotionally earned. You know, grief, as much as it flattens you, it can also just tear you open. And I think when that happens, one you do, you feel like you're interacting with the world in a different way, right? And then I think you are also, you do have this sense that like life is short, you don't know what's going to happen. Let me try. Like I guess I will do this. And of course it doesn't affect everyone in the same way, but I think that kind of effect is familiar to all of us, you know.

[B]

Welcome to the Stats, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host, Tracy Thomas, and today I am joined by author and journalist Daniel Jade Chang. She's here to discuss her new book, what a Time to Be Alive. In this novel, Chang's down on her luck. Protagonist Lola Treasure Gold gains accidental Internet fame when a video of her speaking at her late best friend's wake goes viral, launching her into a career as a self help guru. Today, Jade and I talk about the industry of influencing. We talk about audience and how Jade's perspective has changed over her years as an author. And we talk about people as punctuation marks. As a reminder, our book club pick for October is Frankenstein by Mary Shelley, which we will Discuss on Wednesday, October 29th with Angela Flournoy. Everything we talk about on each episode of the Stacks is linked in the show Notes. If you like this podcast and want more bookish content and community, consider joining the Stacks pack on Patreon and subscribing to my newsletter unstacked on Substack. Each place offers different perks like community conversations and virtual book clubs over on Patreon and my writing and hot takes on the latest literary and pop culture trends over on Substack. Plus your support makes it possible for me to make the Stacks every single week. To join, head to patreon.com/the stacks and or Tracy thomas.substack.com Now it's time for my conversation with Jade Chang. All right everybody, I'm so excited. Today I am joined by friend of the pod who has never actually been on the pod but I think we're friends. The author of the brand new book what a Time to Be Alive, Jade Chang. Jade, welcome to the Saks.

[A]

Hi Tracy, it is a real pleasure to be here. Thank you for having me.

[B]

I'm so excited to have you. I guess how when was the first time we met? Because you're an LA author and I Know that you did the fire event. Yes. And I remember talking to you there. But did we. We've met before.

[A]

We've met at, like a reading or something like that before. Yeah. And I feel like we have.

[B]

I just think of you as a friend.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You have good energy. So I'm always like, oh, Jade, she's the. And not to do too much lovey dovey at the top, but tell folks. Yeah, you gotta earn it. I'm a serious journalist. Can you tell folks in like 30 seconds or so what the book is about?

[A]

Ooh. Okay. The book is about a year in the life of Lola Treasure Gold. And when we meet her, she is at a real low point in her life. You know, she's 31. Things have not been coming together for her. Been trying a lot of things. Worse than all of that. One of her best friends, and really the kind of friend who you think, like, oh, maybe they won't just be a friend forever. Maybe we have some kind of future together. One of her best friends has just died and we actually open on his funeral, but because through a kind of a series of events. I know, I know you're a very. No spoilers podcast, so I won't detail it.

[B]

We're low spoilers. We're low spoilers.

[A]

Okay, okay. Well, through a series of events.

[B]

But this is. This is important plot. Like, this is important. This is in the copy. So I don't think this is a spoiler.

[A]

Okay. She essentially holds forth on what she thinks would be an ideal cult to start, and then someone kind of chops up that video, puts it online in a very appealing package, it goes viral. And then all of a sudden, Lola finds that she has all these people kind of following her and wanting to know what she has to say about the world. And she kind of thinks, all right, let me try, let me try to be here. I am in this position of being perhaps a self help guru, not quite a cult leader. And we kind of follow along through this, through this time as she figures out what she wants in life, if she can do this, what it is to tell people what to believe, what she believes, what it means to commodify belief, all of that.

[B]

I love it. I think it's such a, like, genius idea for a book. Thank you. Especially in this moment of, like, online influencing. And obviously, you know, I have to tread sort of lightly here because I felt slightly seen and attacked by Lola.

[A]

Oh, tell me more.

[B]

Sort of. I do think that I'm sort of like an online influencery person. Who tells people what to think about things? Not about, like, religion or whatever. Like, I'm not, like, a mindfulness expert, but I definitely feel like, you know, there's parts of this book that I was.

[A]

That.

[B]

That spoke to some of the things that I think about a lot. Not necessarily that I am quite on the level of Lola, but I definitely was, like, right. When you talk about things online and offer opinions to the world, you kind of can't control what happen happened from there.

[A]

Did you feel attacked or did you feel seen?

[B]

Well, I think both. I think Lola and I are the same age.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[B]

Yeah, I did. I think I did the math because my sense. She was born in 1986, right?

[A]

She is born in 1986. Yes. Sometimes I forget the details of the things that I wrote.

[B]

Yeah, well, I'm sure you made that detail a long time ago. Anyways, so I did feel seen. I did feel not attacked, but I'm definitely. I think that I am probably more critical of influencer culture than most people because I think about it a lot. Like, I'm thinking about, like, what am I doing? What does this mean? And, like, the capitalism of it all and the commodification of it all, and, like, what is the responsibility? So, like, I think it just made me think about all of these things more.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which I appreciate it. Yeah. And also sometimes felt like Jade is. Hates me.

[A]

No.

[B]

No, I didn't really feel that. But where did you get the idea for this? Where did you come up with this book?

[A]

So I have been trying to write this book for so long, Tracy. I. I actually started writing it over 20 years ago. Right when I graduated from college. I. You know, I graduated from college, I knew I needed to get a real job and pay off student loans, et cetera, et ce. But I did take a job teaching English in Japan for a year, and I was like, all right, in that year, I'm gonna write a novel. Which was very naive, especially now that I know what a slow, slow writer I am. But I wanted. So during that year, I tried to write this book, and even then, I knew I wanted to write about someone who was accidentally thrust into fame and who had to decide, you know, how she wanted to use that fame in that version of the book. It was more culty.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah. But then. So I wrote that because you didn't have social media. You didn't have social media. Everything happened on TV. Isn't that crazy?

[B]

Yeah. 20 years ago, like, MySpace maybe was.

[A]

Like, no, it wasn't the only thing I Don't think my space.

[B]

Not even, like, in 2005. No, it did, it did, it did.

[A]

So this was a little earlier than that, but yeah.

[B]

Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So everything happened on tv. Okay, I see. And then. And then you just couldn't quite get this out of your.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, you just felt compelled to come back to it.

[A]

Yeah, I wrote it by hand in a notebook, and I lost it, and it was devastating. And I was like, I'm never going to write again. The world is over. I. Who knows what I'll do now, you know?

[B]

And.

[A]

Yeah, so I kind of couldn't go back to this story for a little while, but after I finished the Wangs, and, you know, I was thinking about what to write. There was kind of no question. I knew I wanted to do this.

[B]

And then. Did you have to shift? I mean, how much were you, I guess, when you then decided to write it in this totally different world where social media exists and, like, there's a job or, like, a kind of person that exists that is a prototype of sorts for Lola? How, like, did you research? What did you do? How did you actually come to this story again, fresh? Because it doesn't feel dated. Like, it doesn't feel like this is a story about people on tv, that you just were like, oh, TV is now Instagram.

[A]

No, I mean, luckily, I have a terrible memory, so I didn't really remember, like, anything that I wrote back then. And, you know, honestly, if social media had not kind of taken root and unfolded the way that it did, I don't know that I would have gone back to the story. I think part of what really interested me about it was how. Because I think in the original conception, sure. I mean, in the past, people were occasionally suddenly thrust into fame. Right. But every person did not go through life kind of thinking that it could happen to them, you know?

[B]

Right. Yeah, right, right, right, right.

[A]

Like, I think the widespreadness, the accessibility, like, all of that has changed. And I think that the other big difference is that social media means that if you find yourself in that situation, you have the tool to kind of put yourself in front of people over and over again. Right. You have the tool to kind of make that choice for yourself rather than try to appeal to other people to, like, put you on TV again or something. Exactly.

[B]

Like a manager or you don't need to get called by Oprah or whatever. You can just, like, put yourself out there.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

DIY fame, baby. It's true.

[A]

I mean, we're all doing some version of it. Yeah, we are.

[B]

I know. It's horrible. I hate it so much.

[A]

It's horrible.

[B]

As a person who I really hate.

[A]

Here we are.

[B]

Yeah, I know. What's that about? Why does everybody hate it and still, like, use it and love it and. And, like. Like, I. Like, there's a woman that I know sort of loosely. I won't say how or any more details because I don't want someone to know who I'm talking about, who is just, like, a regular person. She's just like, a regular woman that I know. And she is always posting, like, influencer content, but she is not an influencer. So it'll be like, oh, this shirt. Okay. Like, going to the market, got my nails done. And it's this weird thing where I'm like, are you trying to be an influencer, or are we so fucked up in the head that people can't tell the difference between living their life and posting about it versus, like, turning their life into content? And I'm obsessed with her because I don't understand.

[A]

I want to know who she is.

[B]

Well, I'll send you.

[A]

Okay, good.

[B]

Later. But I don't understand. Like, I don't know. And I guess it's what you're talking about that's like, everybody sort of feels like, hey, it could happen for me, like, I could become the person who blows up and becomes, like, a style icon. I don't know. I think about this all the time. I think.

[A]

Think about it this way. Okay, One. First of all, she's only not an influencer because she doesn't have a ton of followers, right? Like, Correct. If she did, then essentially she would have an. She would be an influencer. Brands would probably be interested. She would be getting invited to things, et cetera. Right? But also, I think we have always kind of. And obviously, this is not every single human. Right. But some portion of the population has always kind of wanted to mimic, like, what we see a celebrity doing. Or, for example, think about, like, the glamour shots in the mall, right? Like, from probably.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

No, they were around, like, in the 90s. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[A]

I mean, that is mimicking, like, a celebrity photo shoot, really. Like, the reason people are getting them is because they want to look like. Like glamorous. You know, it's really this. It's not that different.

[B]

It's not that different. I think the thing that's different to me, in my mind, and I'll just keep using this woman that nobody knows who I'm talking about. And a lot of people who are not yet influencers, but like, maybe are trying to be them. Like maybe they want a side hustle is that it's all the same content, it's all the same jeans, it's all the same shoes. It's all. And there's no point of view. And I feel like what is important, important for, for people who are successful as influencers is that they have a point of view about the thing in which they're influencing. And I feel like in your book, Lola does have a point of view about.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And like people hear that and they're like, oh, this is different. And I feel like in the sort of wannabe influencer lane that a lot of people find themselves is that they're just going on Amazon and they're buying the same jellies as everyone else and being like, look at my market shoes. And I'm like, but I already saw that Y on an influencer who has a lot more followers.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know what? Like, so it's, it's like a weird other thing. Like, it's like you're not actually influencing anybody. You're just wearing the same thing as everyone else and talking about it. Like you came up with it, but you didn't come up with it because I already saw, you know, bags and shoes, you know, at Hot Bags and Shoes, talking about them.

[A]

I think that. And you know, it's interesting. I think in this book I really don't get into that lane of influence.

[B]

Very much like follower who regurgitate, who.

[A]

Just regurgitates, like tenfold trends, like kind of a thing. Yes, yes, yes. And I do, I really feel like that is just like the Internet manifestation of like popular kid culture. You know what I mean? Like in a high school being like, oh, I'm going to. Okay, everyone has Uggs. I'm going to get them too. You know, it is, it's a version of.

[B]

But it's like in high school, you just wear it and you shut up and everybody knows that you're just like trying to be cool.

[A]

Right.

[B]

This is like, Let me tell you about it because it's like, it's like a stand in for your actual life. Right. It's like making these kind of lists or whatever. It's a stand in from actually just living your life and wearing your Uggs.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And just like taking a picture of yourself out in your Uggs. And I don't know, I, I think about it a lot. As you can tell. There's a whole other part of this book, though, and you Know, I sort of want to talk to your marketing team because this book is so marketed heavily about the influencing part, but I also found this to be equally, if not more so, a book about grief.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What do you think? How do you sort of think of the book in your mind? Do you think of those two pieces as equal? Did you feel like you were writing a book about grief? About a book about influenc influencer culture? But I don't know. I'm just curious because I feel like it was really pitched as, like, influencer book. And then I was like, oh, sad girl whose friend died.

[A]

Yeah, Yeah. I. You know, I think those two pieces are so intertwined, you know, I feel like she could not have started to do what she does if not for the grief, you know? And I think that. I think with this book, I really, really wanted every kind of story turn to feel so emotionally earned, you know? And I feel like part of what makes it believable to me as the author and I hope to readers that this girl would be like, all right, guys, listen to me. Like, here I am going through it when she hadn't really had those aspirations previously is because I think, you know, we've all experienced this. Right. Like, grief, as much as it flattens you, it can also just tear you open.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think when that happens, one, you feel like you're interacting with the world in a different way. Right. And then I think you are also. You do have this sense that, like, life is short. You don't know what's gonna happen. Let me try. Like, I guess I will do this. And of course, it doesn't affect everyone in the same way, but I think that kind of effect is familiar to all of us, you know?

[B]

Right. And I think, like, also what I. What I think that you do that's really interesting and different and pleasurable to read, is that you talk about grief. Like, the pleasure and grief. There's a line where it says, we never talk about how there's a corner of grief that feels like pleasure. To feel so much emotion, to know it's shared with other people. You're bound to. To experience something so overwhelming that there's no room in your body for a single other thing to exist wholly in an unfamiliar state. It's a kind of love. And I love that because I do feel like what you're saying, like, grief opens you up and sort of maybe, like, gives you, like, a bravado or an urgency, but also that, like, feeling grief or like, in the. Especially in the early stages of that. That's on page 18. So I think we're still in January because the book is broken down by months, like the early stages of grief, when you sort of are, like, feeling filled up by all of it. I just, like, people don't talk about that, so I'm curious, like, what where that came from for you?

[A]

I think I really tried to take this thing and look at it from every possible angle, you know, and just in terms of, like, my own experiences and then friends who I have been through things with, you know, and really, I think, kind of trying to think about, like, how does that time set itself apart from other times in our lives? And. Yeah, and that was one of the things, is that I think that we really seek emotion. You know, I think we. I mean, that's why we like, like these big tearjerker movies and these giant epics and these. These kind of, you know, thrilling books. Right. We want to be filled with emotion. And that is especially in those moments where you have a shared grief. It's. Look, pleasure is an inadequate word for it. Right. And it almost feels a little bit like a rude word for it, but I just couldn't think of another word. And it still felt the most perfect to me. And the little shock of it kind of worked for me.

[B]

Yeah, Yeah. I think that. I mean, it. It resonated with me. So I think it is the right word. Or maybe like satisfaction. I don't know. That's not quite right, though. I think pleasure. Pleasure feels right to me. But. Yes.

[A]

Well, because pleasure is sensual, you know, And I think there is something about that. Like, it is such a full body experience. It is such a thing that, like, takes over your.

[B]

Yeah. And it's not analytical. Like, satisfaction is like, more cerebral or something. No, I. I'm with you. Okay, this is what I want to know about. So I know that you. I know we can talk about this when we get to how you wrote the book, but I know that you were part of a writing group in LA with a superstar array of people publishing books this year. Asia Gable, Angela Flournoy, you and I know that you guys, like, you know, whatever, wrote together, and we'll talk about that later. But when I talked to Angela, I did Angela's live event in la, and she. We talked a lot about writing. Oh, you were there? Of course. She talked about writing in one of her character's voices, who is also sort of an online influencery person. And she was talking about sort of balancing her own intellect and maybe disdain for Online writing.

[A]

I remember that. Yes.

[B]

Yes. With her sort of desire to make this character's writing feel authentic to her readers. And so I want to ask you about that because this book is all Lola's voice and Angela's book. She's got multiple perspectives, so she kind of gets to go in and out of this. The character's Monique. But for you, you chose to lock in on this person who throughout the book, we read her writing, we get to hear what she says. Like there's videos that you sort of, you know, tell us what said in the video. So how were you as a writer tapping into that voice? Did you like it? Did you hate it? I'm just curious because I do think those kinds of writing are different and there's judgment that comes with the online writing.

[A]

I don't feel that judgmental of online writing. Really.

[B]

I do and I do it. I hate my writing. I hate that style of writing. Oh, my God, Yes. I hate it.

[A]

I don't know. I think there is good and bad just as there is in look. I don't think that all literary writing is fantastic, obviously.

[B]

I think a lot of it's really bad. Yeah.

[A]

I think there's a huge range. And I think that the great part about what we're calling online writing is the immediacy. Right? The. I'm thinking about this right now. This is also happening in the world. So you're probably thinking about it too. This is how I'm processing my feelings, I think. I like that. You know, there's something about that that I respond to with this. It's interesting. There's kind of like two layers to this. Right. Because it's. It was so it's written in first person, which I have never done before.

[B]

Like, okay, I did you, like.

[A]

Was hard. I thought it was so hard.

[B]

Do you like to read first person books?

[A]

Not always. I like it when I love the voice. And then sometimes I'm like, well, I hate to. I can't, you know, I can't continue. But yeah, so I found that really hard. But I also, with every new project, I need, like different levels of challenge. Right. So I need like that kind of craft challenge also to just to keep me engaged. And. Yeah. So I had to find that voice, which I think I went through a few different kind of like, oh, this is like trying to be too clever or this feels too cute, or like there's too many words, like, you know, different versions of things. Kind of trying to get at that thing that felt real. And then. Yeah, then When I started writing, like, some of her posts, I was like, all right, how am I going to handle this? And I did try to channel. I think I let a little bit of that, like, cleverness come in. More to the parts where Lola was writing, right. Like when she was writing a post. Just like a more self conscious turn of phrase, like that kind of a thing. Because I think that she would in those moments be like, being her full self, but also like wanting people to know she's smart, you know?

[B]

Right, right, right. Like the performance of it.

[A]

Mm.

[B]

Yeah. Because I feel like it's so, you know, again, I'm always put. I'm always putting all of this through my own lens, right? Like, that's what we do.

[A]

How could you not?

[B]

Right? When I read any book, I'm always like, right. Sifting it through my own lens. But this book, I feel like, has the added layer of like, this is sort of about what I do in some ways. Do you know what I mean? Like, not exactly, but like, I'm like, I'm like.

[A]

But it's there for sure.

[B]

Yes. And I'm so obsessed with audience. I think about audience all the time. Like when I'm reading something, when I'm writing something, when I'm thinking about the podcast, I'm always thinking about, like, who's the audience? What are we trying to do to them, whatever. And so as I was reading your book, I'm thinking about like, you, Jade, and then I'm thinking about Lola, and then I'm thinking about Lola's performance to her audience. Right. And like that you, Jade, have an audience that's probably very different than Lola's audience at first, like on some places, but there's also like this overlap. So are you thinking about audience? I mean, maybe not as much as I am because all I do is sing about audience, but in some ways, are you thinking about that? Like, does this work for who I, Jade, I'm writing for and does this work for who Lola is writing for, even if we're thinking about different people?

[A]

That is a really interesting question. I love it. I kind of a weird answer, which is that, so when the Wents versus the World came out, I went on tour for that book for a long time. Like, truly almost a year, which sounds nuts, like, thinking back on it. But yeah, I just did event after event for so long. And what that really taught me is you do not know who your audience is. Like, the range of people. It was thrilling, actually. Like, there was such a surprise. Surprising. You know, I think that you, you write a book that is about an Asian family and a road trip and it's a. It's sold as literary fiction. And you expect like, you know, some pretty clear demographics for that.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But in fact, no, I mean, of course, yes, there is just like a book lover demographic. Right. And they were there and that I was very grateful. But there was also, I always remember this, which is very strange.

[B]

I.

[A]

Got just, you know, through my website, people would sometimes write and be like, hey, I read your book. I really liked it. Three separate emails from white men who worked at logging companies, one of whom owned a logging company. I didn't even know there were that many logging companies, by the way.

[B]

I couldn't name the logging company.

[A]

Yeah, logging, slash lumber companies. I. Sorry. I guess this is revealing myself as someone who will sometimes Google who you are if you message me and anyone.

[B]

Who'S not admitting to that. You're nuts. You're not. I'm Googling everything. Yeah.

[A]

But I think one or two of those people did have their, you know, the company in their signature and then I just looked up what the company was. But yeah, I wouldn't have expected. None of us expected that.

[B]

You know, you're big with the logging community.

[A]

Who knew? But I do think that I just really realize, like, you don't know who your audience is. And also that is so freeing and exciting. And of course there will always be, you know, the core of book lovers that I'm so thrilled to be in conversation with. And also Asian American readers that I am so thrilled to be in conversation with. But then also, we are all just humans among humans. And I do think that my understanding of that has changed so much as I've gotten older, you know, and I think that. Yeah. And I think if I had written this book, you know, 20 plus years ago when I was first trying to write it. Yeah. I would have written it to an extremely specific audience like me, basically, you know.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

You would have been in that audience, you know, it would have been like us. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Just you and me. Audience of two.

[A]

Exactly. But now I just feel like when you're writing a book, you're asking someone for so much time and attention and care that I want to give that back to the reader. And so when I am thinking about my audience, I'm not thinking about kind of like, are you going to understand this? How are you going to react to this? I am thinking about, am I earning your emotional reactions and like how kind of, I guess both like seriously and Generously. Can I take something?

[B]

Yeah, yeah. There's a version of this book that is like satire. And then there's the version that you wrote that is like, very. It's like big hearted. It's definitely like a heart. A heart book. And I think. I think that's interesting to think about, like, that you could take this story. I mean, there's also probably, like a horror version of this, right?

[A]

Like, there's some appealing. Right. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

I mean, yes, yes. There's like, you know, different ways that these. This kind of story could go, but I think certainly the way that, like, what. What I read is, like, feels very, like. I don't know, it's not earnest per se, but it is like, hearty. Heart. Ish, if you will.

[A]

Yeah, no, I think that's true. And I appreciate the fact that you read it that way because I do think that I've definitely gotten a couple of responses where they're like, this is straight satire. I'm like, I think you're missing a little bit. Yeah, I didn't.

[B]

I'm always looking for satire. I love satire. But I didn't get that from this book. I actually think I went in thinking it would be, I think, like, given the marketing copy and like, sort of like the colors on the COVID like, I sort of thought it was gonna be a, like, more punchy book. You know, like, to me it's packaged that way and I think it's slightly more like. Like I said, it's more about grief than I thought. It's more about sort of like this turmoil that she has than it is about, like, influencing. I mean, obviously that's a part of it, but it's not about that. And I think, like, the satire version of this book would be like, about, like. You have a section on page 110 in my copy that's like, about the economics of influencing. And I think in like, the satire version of this book, that would have been 15 pages throughout. You know what I mean? Like, it's just like. It would be more about the industry in my mind.

[A]

Yeah. You know, I think it's really interesting. I think that is kind of. Really, kind of depends on what the reader brings to it. Because I think, you know so much about the behind the scenes of it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That it would have required, like, several more steps for you to be like, oh, and this and this and this. Right. Whereas I think for someone who is coming at it, I mean, speaking of audience. Right. For someone who's coming at it, like, not having kind of dabbled. Yeah. I feel like Lola kind of going through those steps of like figuring out the taxonomy of Internet influencers. And I loved it. Thank you. And trying to understand it. You know, I think that probably looms as like a larger piece for someone who comes from the outside. And I think definitely the parts that are about. That are about Ted, that are like a thinly veiled version of Oprah, Supersoul Sunday Esalen, like those parts. Definitely. I let the satire side of it, like open up a little more. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

It's definitely like commentary for sure. Okay, let's take a quick break and we'll be right back. Hey friends, it's Tracy. So how have you been enjoying the podcast? Hopefully you're loving it. And if you are, you might want a little bit more of the Stacks. And I've got two places that you should check out to keep these bookish good vibes going. The Stacks Pack, which is my Patreon community and you can find [e-mail] thestacks and my newsletter, which I call Unstacked, is over on substack@tracy thomas.substack.com Let me break it down for you. The Stacks Pack is where community lives. We're talking book club meetups, a private discord to chat books all day long. Our year long mega reading challenge to push your reading goals to the next level. Plus members get a bonus episode every month.

[A]

Month.

[B]

It's a great way to support my work and to connect with an awesome crew of readers. Over on Unstacked. I'm keeping the conversation going twice a week with posts that cover everything from my mini reviews and book rankings to pop culture hot takes and rants, plus whatever's on my tbr. There's also a free option over there so you can stay connected with me. So head to patreon.com the stacks and Tracy thomas.substack.com to connect and meet with other book lovers and support this black woman run independent podcast. I can't wait to talk books with you. We're back from our break. Our fake. Our fake break. It's always just so annoying to do it in person. But I have to say it so that the ads can play because I.

[A]

Understand you gotta have the economics of influencing. Exactly.

[B]

Okay, I have to know. How did you name your characters? Lola Treasure Gold is such an insanely good name.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

I feel like I went to your event in LA before the book came out and oh yeah, I think all you said was like, this is a Book about Lola. And I was like, sign me up. I have no clue what this book is about. You're one sentence in, but I'm locked in. So where did you come up with her name and every. Actually, everyone's names are pretty fantastic.

[A]

Thank you. I. I think I am just at heart, a real maximalist. And I like a name that packs a punch, you know?

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And with Lola, I mean, this is kind of revealed in a scene of the book. But her mom is, like, ready to. I wanted a name that would be like a fight between two cultures a little bit, you know, and her mom is ready to just give her a Chinese name that's, like, transliterated essentially into English. But there is another influential caretaker in her life who. Who convinces her mom to name her Lola. And then is like, Americans have middle names. And her mom was like, that's dumb. All right. Well, I guess. And treasure is a very common nickname in Chinese. Ball or babe. It's like honey, essentially in. In English. Yeah, yeah. So that's where the treasure comes from. And then the gold is her actual Chinese last name. And then for various reasons that become clear in the book, she changes it to the English. So, yeah, it seemed like a nice, like, bam. Bam. Bam.

[B]

Yeah, it's a. It's a really good name.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

In the structure, like you said before, it takes place over one year, and we get, like, each chapter is a month. So January, February, March. You all understand what I'm saying? How did you come to that? Why did you want to keep it to a year? Was it always that way, or did that find you later?

[A]

It was not always that way. I think I needed two things to really start writing this book. It was figuring out Lila's voice and then figuring out this structure. And I think what I have kind of discovered about myself is that I need a superstructure. Right? So the Wangs was a road trip. So I knew they were going to go to various cities. I knew what cities seemed fun to go to. You know, I knew where I wanted them to end up. So then I had kind of a structure that I could then slot in the, like, emotional ups and downs and the plot arcs within and kind of the same thing with a year. Right. I knew. I mean, dumb things like, oh, they can go to a Halloween party. You know, there are things like that, but then also just we react emotionally to, like, different parts of the year. And it also gave me a real sense of, like, okay, we are measuring, like, when you go through something really big, like having someone so Close to you die a lot of times, that messes up your sense of time, you know? And I wanted to think about that and kind of how, you know, depending on how far out she was from that moment, how she was responding to things. Yeah. So coming up with that year structure really, I'd say, was instrumental in getting me to write this book.

[B]

I love it. I love when a book has a clear, like. Especially time structure. Like when it takes place in a day or a week or a weekend or a year. I just let. Just like that with you there. It really is. Yeah, it really is.

[A]

We like a clock. Yeah, I do.

[B]

I love it, like, when a book is, like, over many undetermined days or years, I'm just like, where am I? What's going on?

[A]

How long is it gonna take to get there?

[B]

I even prefer it when a book jumps around in time, where it's like, 2018, 2003. Like that. I also prefer to just general time pass that makes. I just like to have something to anchor my.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

I'm also, like, a rule follower, so I feel like.

[A]

Like, are you really live by your calendar?

[B]

Oh, yeah. I love a calendar. I also remember days. Like, I can tell you whoever's birthday it is. Like, if you tell me your birthday once, I'll remember it for most people. Like, I just. I think in time. Are you like that at all? Are you a person? No. So this is really just like, a writing thing for you?

[A]

No, I am a time person, but I wouldn't say I'm a calendar person. Like, I think I find our varying experiences of time really fascinating.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And I find the way that, like, time passes fast and slow so interesting, you know? But I hate to be bound to. Yeah. All right.

[B]

What's your. What's your astrological sign?

[A]

I'm a Scorpio.

[B]

Okay. I was curious. Lola is a Capricorn or Sagittarius. Her birthday's in December, so it was unclear to me. It just happens in December. But I wasn't sure if she's a Sagittarius. Okay. She's early December.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Or I guess most of December is.

[A]

Most of December is Sagittarius. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

My kids are Capricorns, and my dad was a Capricorn. Both December. So I think it's Capricorn as a December thing, even though it's really, I guess, mostly January. Okay. Okay. I just was. I was curious. I love when I. It's like, such, like, a nerdy book thing, but I just love when we Find out a character's sign. Like, when a birthday is specific. I think it's fun. It's like. Like, Like, I think. I think Juliet in Romeo and Juliet is like. She's like a Leo, I think. Or maybe she's a Cancer, But I'm always. I. I don't know. I. I just like it. I just like to know.

[A]

Well, I have to admit something very narcissistic, but Scorpio, like, which is. I only know about my own zodiac sign.

[B]

I'm a Leo. I pretty much only know about my own sign as well. But I always like it when a birthday comes up because I feel like. Because I know some people think about it. Some, like, some authors will be like, I wanted them to be a Leo.

[A]

I 100% thought about it in the sense that, like, I knew that other people would notice it, and I didn't want her to have. I didn't want to make her a Gemini and have people read so much into that Gemini designation, for example.

[B]

I see. I want to make sure we have time to get to your process, because I have heard about it, but I assume a lot of people have not heard about your writers group. So I would love for you to talk about the Pomodoro Posse.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, my God. You remember the term, too. I mean, I guess it's not a. Not an uncommon term.

[B]

I remember Pomodoro. I think. I think I sort of embellished it with posse. I don't think calling.

[A]

We don't call ourselves a posse, but I guess, yes, really. I would say this group grew out of my own desperation to get anything done. I am not a great worker. Like, I have a really hard time working at home. I. You know, some people need, like, quiet and a desk of their own. No, give me noise in somebody else's desk. Like, that is my preference. So I asked, you know, several friends who all kind of happened to be. I knew that they were all working on books. And it was also this. We started it during the pandemic. So there was one. There were two places on Hillhurst Avenue in Los Angeles that had outdoor patios where, you know, even in kind of the darkest days of the pandemic, you could sit outside and work. And so it was me, Asia Gable, as you mentioned, who has the novel Lightbreakers coming out in November very soon.

[B]

And she did the pod both or you. Asia and Angela now have all done the podcast. So I have three of, like, what an honor. I think, yeah, I gotta collect all of the Pomodoro Posse.

[A]

You know, because then it's gonna be Jean Chen Ho, who wrote Fiona and Jane and Xu and Juliana Wang, who wrote Home Remedies, both beautiful short story collections, and both of them are working on their first novels, which hopefully will be out in a year or two.

[B]

And.

[A]

Yeah, and I think kind of like the loneliness of the Pandemic got them all to say yes to me. So we would gather, and then, of course, Angela Flournoy. But Angela actually moved to LA during the pandemic, so we had already kind of started, and then she joined in, which was great. And then we had other friends who come in and out as well. For example, our friend Emma joins occasionally, and she was the one who instituted an agenda where during the Pomodoro times, which are 45 minutes apiece, where we're working, if we have anything pressing to say, if we think of any funny comments or little bits of gossip or questions, Emma makes us write it down on the agenda, and then we're allowed to reference it during our talking breaks.

[B]

And the talking breaks are five minutes.

[A]

Yeah, but they're longer.

[B]

I do pomodoro for myself when I'm really having a hard time working, but I do 25 and 5. I do traditional pomodoro. Yeah, but that's hard. It's sometimes too short.

[A]

It's too short. And then I think also when it's so many people, I mean, it's not always all of us every time, but when it's multiple people. You have five minute break, you want to have, like, a little bit of a conversation. Yeah. Then if Your break is 10 minutes, your work time has to. To be longer, you know?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

45, 10 is a really good rhythm.

[B]

Maybe I'll try that. I'm open to changing my. I mean, like I said, I love the clock, but I feel like if I just change it, I change it.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

So you all would work. But what I love, what I've heard both you and Angela say is that you guys, none of you really talked about your work, so you would go and work on your books, but, like, none of you really knew what you were writing about until.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, we knew the book.

[B]

Started to come out. Like broad strokes.

[A]

Yes. Like the basics. And we would occasionally talk to each other about not like, oh, this character is doing this. What do I do? But more like, wait a minute, like, if a guy's coming up to you in a club, like, what. What did he say? You know, like, things like that. Yeah, I love it.

[B]

So then when you get to read each other's books. Are you like, oh, that's from. We talked about this.

[A]

Yeah, that scene is actually from. It's a club scene in the wilderness. I remember talking to Angela a lot about clubs in general, but not really knowing what was happening in that scene. And then.

[B]

And it's such a good scene.

[A]

Such a good scene. So fun to read it and be like, oh, I. That's right. Okay. I'm glad you put that in.

[B]

I picked that song.

[A]

Yeah, it was really fun.

[B]

So I love this because I, you know, I always ask people how they write, and most of the time it's, like, in my office in a coffee shop, but it's never like, in a group or in community with other people who write. Now, are you still doing the Pomodoro group?

[A]

Not recently, because I've been on book tour.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

But, like.

[B]

Like, once you finish this book.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Do you go back to start other things?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because again, you could ever write again without it. Like, can you write without the group now?

[A]

No, I wrote the. I wrote the Wangs with a friend, also my friend Margaret Wappler, who wrote Neon Green. She and I wrote so much of those books together, and then she moved too far away. So rude, you know? Very rude. Wasn't thinking about my career at all when she made that decision.

[B]

Yeah. Like, so selfish. Like, get a life that was around me. Duh.

[A]

Come on. But, yeah, I. No, I can't. I need, like, the, you know, the camaraderie, the distraction. Yeah. I need all of that in order to write.

[B]

And, you know, you're not gonna get away without answering this. Do you have reading or writing snacks and beverages?

[A]

Oh, I mean, everything when I. When I'm in real, like, I have to finish this book mode, my deal with myself is always I can eat and drink whatever I want.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Like, price, no object. Calories, no object. Just. It's fine.

[B]

So what's your go to? Like, like, what is, like, if. Price, object calories no object. What do you want? What. What are the kinds of things you're eating and drinking?

[A]

My favorite is. Sorry to endorse substances on this program, but my favorite is a slow beer I love to have. Truly a beer that takes an hour and a half to two hours to drink. Because I just feel like it just gives you that little kind of click of remove where obviously this beer has not affected me, actually, in any way, you know, but just, like, the feeling of having it.

[B]

A sense memory of the beer.

[A]

Yeah. All of it is just a really nice way to, like, click me into, you know.

[B]

Yeah. What about a word you can never spell correctly on the first try?

[A]

Oh, God. You know what it is? It's almost too on the nose. Embarrassed influencer.

[B]

No, embarrass is so hard. I can't feel embarrassed.

[A]

Like, how many Rs? How many Ss?

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

I should just, like, have a mnemonic for it or something. I can spell mnemonic, but I can't spell that. I can't. I can't spell. Yeah, I can't. I'm panicking right now because I feel like you're gonna ask me to spell it, and I.

[B]

No, no, no, no, no, no. I'm a terrible speller, so I don't ever spell. Spell shame. Like, I just want people on the record that they can't spell things, because I think most people who come on the show are, like, very impressive humans. And I just want to remind everyone that nobody can spell except for, like, a few people who are like, actually, I was the spelling bee champion. And then usually I try to cut the interview short. I'm like, okay, well, that's all my questions. Sorry, you're a genius. Whatever. In your book.

[A]

Book.

[B]

So there's a question that I ask people only when I do live events, that I stole from an audience member at a live event. And it is, if you were a punctuation mark, what punctuation mark would you be? But in the book that comes up, and I was like, okay, so now I need to know what punctuation mark you would be. Oh, or you are.

[A]

What punctuation mark would I be? It just changes so much all the time. I do kind of think of myself as ellipses.

[B]

Okay. Every writer says these. These elongating, punctuating ellipses. Semicolon, comma, squeeze it in.

[A]

Also, I love to use ellipses. I always have to, like, cut them out because I use way too many of them.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, my most overused punctuation mark is obviously an exclamation point. You know, that's me.

[B]

I'm an excellent.

[A]

Throwing them in at all times. Yeah.

[B]

I love an exclamation point, though, sometimes. I guess I'm a question mark. I like to ask questions. I'm very nosy, but I think even my questions often have.

[A]

And I have, like, a kind of feeling. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

It's like yelling questions.

[A]

Whereas I feel like even my exclamation points have a little like. But hold on.

[B]

You know, Wait, there's More. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Exactly, exactly. Actually, what is possible exclamation point. That is probably my most.

[B]

That's you.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

That's you. That's you. I guess I have to ask you this. Who are your favorite influencers?

[A]

Oh, I. I'm so sorry. I know it sounds like I'm trying to get out of something, but I don't have any. Like, you don't have any.

[B]

You don't have any follows where you're just like, this person. I just can't stop watching them. I have some, like, hate influencer follows.

[A]

Yeah, for sure. No, I feel like I just got way too analytical with all of it and, like, examined people too much. I also have a. I think this happens when you've ever worked as a journalist. Especially in back in the day when there wasn't just, like, automatic transcribing where when I'm working on something, I have, like, picture perfect memory for it. And then when I'm done, Pew, it's gone. It is gone from my brain.

[B]

Yeah, Got it, got it. Okay. For people who love what a Time to Be Alive, what are some other books you'd recommend to them that are in conversation with what you've done?

[A]

Oh, I have. The weirdest book is springing to mind.

[B]

Oh, good. Do it, do it.

[A]

It's not like a current book.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So when I was a kid, I found a copy of the Stumble over, saying it in English. In Chinese, it's the Tao Te Jing. It's the Tao Te Ching.

[B]

Oh, yeah. Okay.

[A]

Yeah. So I read it when I was a kid, and I was like, I understand every word of this. I see the world clearly now. All right. Yes. In fact, I could teach this religion. And then a couple years after that, when I was maybe like 15 or 16, I read it again. I was like, what? Like, I don't understand. I feel like if this book came out of any book, it is that. And then I've been reading recently Ken Liu, the science fiction writer. And is he more of a fantasy, you know, sci fi. Fantasy writer?

[B]

Sci fi fantasy is not something that I know anything about.

[A]

He's amazing. He really is. But he and Ursula Le Guin have both written books about the Tao. And then, of course, there is the classic the Tao Poo. But sky, oh, my God. I have been reading their book. I don't know that they're in conversation with my book, but I feel in conversation with them.

[B]

You feel like it's in conversation? It's in conversation. Speaking of that book, actually, I read. I reread a Million Little Pieces this year, and it's a huge part of James Fry's.

[A]

Oh, isn't it?

[B]

Yeah. I didn't remember that, but it comes up in the book all the time. Someone gives it to him. His brother, like, gives him.

[A]

When he gets to the end, so.

[B]

He'S like, yeah, it was a wild reread anyway, the other day. All right. I know it's a lie, but I. It's. It's really. It's grippy, it's grabby. It's. Yeah.

[A]

Anyways, you know, one other book that is. You know the book Margo's got Money Troubles. Oh, yeah, yeah. Which I love. And I'm friends with Rufy and I. They're not similar at all. But I will say that one that I read, Margot and I, the whole time, on a little, like, sticky note, I was. I kept writing down, like, oh, this thing, this thing, this thing. Like, we. We address so many of the same kind of, like, concerns in the world, you know?

[B]

Yes. That's totally in conversation.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And I. I sent it to her.

[B]

Question that way because I don't want people to think, like, oh, the same topics. Like, it's just like, right. A book that's, like, vibing out in the same way way, you know?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It does feel like you gave us both, like, the same deck of cards, and we're like, I'm gonna do that. I'm gonna do that. You know?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I actually love. That's a great comparison. Okay, last one. If you could have one person dead or alive read this book, who would you want it to be?

[A]

You know, it's funny. I've listened to some of your podcasts. I've listened to several people, all seem to want Toni Morrison to read their books.

[B]

It's true. A lot of people want that. If I were a writer, I would be like, the last person I want is Toni Morrison because would judge me and think I suck.

[A]

It's true. I do feel like Toni Morrison is a discerning reader.

[B]

Yeah. Like, she's not going to be like, great job, Tracy. She's going to be like, I don't need some edits.

[A]

Okay. Yes. But although that would be. That would also be an honor. Yeah. But in keeping with that, I guess my answer would be Maxine Honkingston, who was the first Asian American author that I read when I was younger, who wrote a book that I felt, like, blown away by. You know, just so kind of woman warrior.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

It's so good. Oh, it's experimental and kind of overwhelming and exciting and weird and interesting and then also historical. Yeah, it's fantastic.

[B]

Amazing. Well, everybody, you can get your copy of what a Time to Be Alive. Wherever you get your books. It is out in the world. I read the whole thing on the page. I didn't listen to the audiobook at all, so I can't speak to it, but I'm sure it's great because I'm sure it's super voicey and like, I'm sure it would be fun to read out loud. Have you listened to any of it?

[A]

Weirdly, I find it deeply embarrassing to listen to my own audiobook.

[B]

So just a little bit.

[A]

But the narrator is fantastic and I've been hearing very good reviews of it. Yes.

[B]

Okay. I might. I might wait. I might put a hold on in the library just to get or like listen to a little snippet of it.

[A]

Let me know and I'll.

[B]

I will.

[A]

I'll pass along your review as mine.

[B]

Okay. Well, Jade, thank you so much for being here. This was a blast.

[A]

Thank you. It was so fun to talk to you. Thanks, Tracy and everyone else.

[B]

We will see you in the snacks. Thank you all so much for listening and thank you again to Jade for being my guest. I'd also like to say a huge thank you to Sonia. Choose for making this episode possible. Our book club pick for October is Frankenstein by Mary Shelley, which we will be reading on Wednesday, October 29th with Angela Flournoy. If you love the Stacks, if you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com the stacks to join the Stacks Pack and check out my newsletter@tracy thomas.substack.com make sure you're subscribed to the Stacks wherever you listen to your box podcasts. And if you're listening through Apple Podcasts or Spotify, please leave us a rating and a review. For more from the Stacks, you can follow us on social media at the Stacks Pod, on Instagram threads and TikTok, as well as our brand new YouTube channel. And check out our website at the stacks podcast.com Today's episode of the Stacks was edited by Christian Duenas with production assistance from Sahara Clement. Our graphic designer is Robin McRate and our theme music is from Tagirages. The Stacks is created and produced by me, Tracy Thomas.