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The Stacks
Ep. 409 Girl on Girl by Sophie Gilbert — The Stacks Book Club (Christiana Mbakwe Medina)
01:11:08
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- [00:01]
A
I think sometimes the influence of these movies and these musicians, it's overstated, but I think it's culturally specific. I think there are cultures where media is hugely influential and there are cultures where that are maybe more community oriented, where you learn how to be yourself through other people. Right? You're like, I learned how to be me through the older women I was watching and my peers. But I do think there is a suburban malaise or like a city loneliness where there are people that American Pie was their text. They didn't have necessarily a big brother or older cousins in real life that were looking at. I'm like, I want to be like him.
- [00:50]
B
Welcome to the Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host Tracy Thomas and It is the first book club day of 2026. We are joined again by Christiana and Bakwe Medina, who is an Emmy nominated TV writer, a journalist and now the host of a brand new pop culture podcast called Pop Syllabus. Today, Christiana and I are discussing a girl on girl how Pop Culture Turned a Generation of Women against themselves by Sophie Gilbert. In this book, Sophie Gilbert takes us back into the 1990s and early 2000s and asks us to interrogate the ways women were objectified, hypersexualized and infantilized across the pop culture landscape. Christiana and I talk about all of that, plus we link the era's rampant misogyny to the rise of the incel and so much more. So stay tuned for our conversation and make sure you listen all the way to the end to find out what our February book club pick will be. Everything we talk about on each episode of the Stacks is linked in our show Notes. And if you like this podcast, if you want more bookish content and community, consider joining the Stacks Pack on Patreon and subscribing to my newsletter unstacked on substack. Each place offers their own unique perks. Over on the Patreon, you're going to get a lot of community like our Discord, our virtual book club meetups, our mega reading challenge. And then over on the Sub stack, you can think of that as more of a space for hot takes, literary pop culture news and more of my opinions. In both spaces you will get access to the monthly bonus episodes. Plus you get to know that your support makes it possible for me to make the Stacks every single week and to make it free to all. To join, go to patreon.com the stacks for the stacks Pack and you can check out my newsletter@tracy thomas.substack.com all right, now it is time for my conversation with Christiana Bakwe Medina. All right, everybody. It is the Stacks Book Club day. I am joined again by Christiana Mbakwe Medina. We are discussing. Discussing girl on girl, How Pop Culture Turned a Generation of Women against themselves by Sophie Gilbert. Christiana, welcome back to the Stacks.
- [03:05]
A
Thank you for having me.
- [03:07]
B
I'm so excited. I was really excited to have you on the show, but I didn't know what we should do for book club. And this book popped into my head. I sent you a list, and you picked this one. And I was like, this is the exact correct answer for this, for this coupling, you and I. So I'm really excited. For people who are listening at home, um, there won't be spoilers. So if you haven't read the book, that's totally fine. But we are going to talk about everything. So if you feel like something's a spoiler that's on you, that's not on us. Don't dm. I always start here for book club, just generally, broadly. What did you think of the book?
- [03:39]
A
Oh, I really enjoyed it. I thought she took a really big swing. And I love when people write books and they have ambition. There's a thing with big swings you may miss. Right? I don't think she did. I think she did what she wanted intended to do. I hope she feels that way. It's a great book. It's a great book. And I think it was the cultural history part of it. Like, the pop culture junkie in me. I was like, oh, my God. I remember that. I remember that. Like, I think it's good when a nonfiction book makes you, like, recall things and. Yeah, great. Loved it.
- [04:12]
B
Okay. I think I'm slightly more mixed on this book than you, but I agree with the ambition. I think that this book is. Is really. I'm so glad this book exists.
- [04:23]
A
Yes.
- [04:23]
B
I love when people take pop culture seriously. I think that there is this deeply sexist thing of, like, pop culture is not a serious thing. It doesn't matter. It's just the Kardashians. And I believe that she gave pop culture and women's representation of pop culture a serious treatment, which I absolutely love. I think women. Where I struggled with the book a little bit was that her thesis felt unclear to me. Like, I like each.
- [04:53]
A
Tell me more.
- [04:53]
B
Each chapter I really liked, but overarching. I don't feel like I have a better sense of, like, why she wanted to write this entire book. Like, what Was the point of the book as a whole, as opposed to, like, each essay felt very clear, but I struggled to draw a through line. And that's not to say that I can't be convinced by you or others. No, no, no. I just, like. I just kept being like, okay, so. Because one of the big pieces of the book is like, everything's informed by porn, right?
- [05:23]
A
Oh, yeah, she's very anti porn, which we can get to, but yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [05:27]
B
And that's like a huge. Like, to me, that ended up feeling like the thesis of the book was like, women are. Are only in pop culture based on porn. And I sort of. There's a part, like, much later in the book, want to say it's like on page 180 or something. And she talks about how, like, what happened. What happened to me when I was watching the treatment of pop. So, okay, it's in the Gossip Girl section. The degradation of women and fame. And it's on page 181. And she says, but I'm interested too. And what this moment did to those of us who were simply spectators, curious and even envious of the stars whose degradation was offered up to us as thrilling, perpetual stakes, free entertainment. How did it condition us to see ourselves? And maybe more crucially, what did it condition us to think about other women and what they might be capable of? And to me, I think that is what maybe I thought that this book was going. That was the question this book was going to answer. And I don't think it really got there until that part. But, like, that's the way that the book felt pitched to me, how pop culture turned a generation of women. Like, I thought it was going to be more about what. What all of this did to women as spectators as opposed to, like, what this book, like, what men's desires did I get. Does that make sense?
- [06:48]
A
Yeah, I think maybe because I had a different reading, I felt that the book's core argument was about. And maybe she doesn't say this as explicitly and maybe because she didn't want to. I'm really. I'd love to speak to her about it, actually. But I think it was about the impact that post feminism, this idea of post feminism had on pop culture. Yeah, Post feminism, choice feminism, trickle down feminism, how that, like saying, we don't need that anymore, let women be women. How it informed how we treated women in pop culture, whether it's like a Lindsay Lohan or a Britney Spears or a Pamela Anderson and how women themselves began to behave. I think because she Does. Doesn't seem to have a overly positive view on pornography. And, you know, the thing about pornography everyone feels differently about. I don't like to think about porn too much. I'm like, I don't.
- [07:42]
B
Me neither.
- [07:43]
A
I'm like, let people do what they have fun. Yeah. I think the industry itself is very exploitative. Like, I think the actual, like, mechanisms of the porn industry, I think, need to be deeply interrogated. The work itself, I don't want to sit down and deconstruct porn scenes. Yeah. I want to. Maybe some other people can do that work. And that's very important work. But I think because she has a negative view of porn, but doesn't necessarily speak to women in porn who had then informed pop culture. That's why I think, for you, it didn't land. Because that piece of the interview portion wasn't there in the book. But I don't think it was. I don't think that's what she wanted to set out to do. To also do, like, you know.
- [08:26]
B
Yeah, I think. I think what I struggled with was, like, trying to answer the question for myself of, like, what was she trying to do and did she do it? Because whenever I read something, that's all I always go with, what was the author trying to do? Did they do it? And then did I like it?
- [08:40]
A
Yeah.
- [08:41]
B
Which is, you know, the most subjective piece of it. And I think I kept struggling of, like, wait, what is she trying to do here? Because I didn't always feel like everything felt connected. But again, I thought each chapter was really good. Like, I was interested in the arguments within each chapter. I was interested in the treatment she gave. And then my other, like, very big overarching kind of critique, which she does acknowledge in the introduction, is that this book is just so straight. And I think some of the way I would have loved for her to explore, especially some of the ways that, like, trans women complicate this because of men's obsession with them, especially when it comes to, like, porn and sexualization.
- [09:19]
A
Oh, interesting.
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B
And I know that that's, like, not necessarily what she wanted to do, but I think it does add something about, like, the way we've moved, like, the way that trans women have started to take up this huge piece of pop culture thinking and, like, political thinking. And I would have loved that to show up later.
- [09:39]
A
Yeah. I think she kind of acknowledges, like, I'm a CIS heterosexual white woman, and, you know, that informs my lens and that that kind of informs the scope of this project. I think that those are that's a very important piece of this. I don't know if it belongs in this book, like that examination, that tracing of the influence of trans women on pop culture, on pornography, on beauty standards. I think that's a separate text that deserves, like, you have to just sit in that topic.
- [10:13]
B
I think it deserves. Yeah, I think it deserves many texts. But I do think, for me, I think there was a place for it. Like, I think when we talk, like.
- [10:20]
A
She talks about in reality tv. Right. That she talks about how the whole gotcha moment of that reality TV show.
- [10:25]
B
Of that show.
- [10:26]
A
Yeah.
- [10:27]
B
Which. But like, for example, in that section, that woman Miriam ended up killing herself.
- [10:33]
A
Yeah.
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B
And that's not mentioned in the book. And I thought, you know, like, they're just. And like, there's a part where she mentions Laverne Cox in Orange is the New Black.
- [10:41]
A
Yeah.
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B
But I just. There is something about the treatment of trans women in popular culture that I felt deserved a little more attention because I do think it's connected to. To some of the other stuff she was doing. And obviously, again, I know that's not her wheelhouse. I know that that's not her thing, but I think what she says in the introduction is, like, this book skews specifically, like, sis and hat and. And all. And all these things, because that's the lens through which pop culture is created. And I think that pop culture is start. Starting to turn its lens to trans people. And I think towards the end of the book, like, we get into the power section. I don't. There's just. It's become such a political conversation about power that I just thought there was like, a little bit of room for that.
- [11:33]
A
I understand what you mean. Yeah.
- [11:34]
B
You know what I'm saying? I don't expect her to do, like, a full queer text. And I think there are people who can and do. Can and will do that. And I will read those books and. But I think she had a little room to kind of be like. And something is happening.
- [11:48]
A
Yeah, I think so. That's like a really interesting perspective and not one that I necessarily thought of because. And I think it then again comes down to, like, the premise of the book.
- [11:59]
B
Right.
- [11:59]
A
I actually think the post feminism argument, part of post feminism and how, like, liberal ideology came. There was a more openness, I think, to the idea of trans women being in CIS women's spaces very briefly. And then, you know, you know, the moment we're in right now, how things have turned so much. And I think there is a portion where that could be Woven in. But maybe I don't even want to speak on her behalf. I think sometimes people feel like I'm not doing this justice and I'm just including trans women as an afterthought. And that's why my argument is like, I think. And it's why I like this book and why I think it needs to be done for the trans experience and the queer experience. A kind of retelling of the 2010s and the aughts and the journey within pop culture and mainstream culture and how that had political ramifications and how that became about, you know, people are defending their humanity and we're reducing it to, like, what's happening in sports. Right?
- [13:03]
B
Yeah.
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A
People like, I just want medical care. I. My daughter doesn't actually want to play netball or football with you. Like, yeah, my daughter just needs help. And so I do think that's a separate project. But again, because it's so ambitious and so rich.
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B
Yeah.
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A
There are going to be those blind spots. And you're reading it and you're like, well, I have a longing for a taste of this, you know, and it's.
- [13:24]
B
Right. That's why I'm sort of like, I think this is just something that I wanted to see. I don't know that that's her fault, but it did. There was like a little hole for me.
- [13:30]
A
Yeah.
- [13:31]
B
One of the places she starts. And I'm curious if you. If you agree, because I sort of love this line where she says in the introduction, analyzing history together is an act of hope.
- [13:42]
A
Yeah. I think that's. That's her personal position. Like. Yeah, I think it. I. The way I analyze history and kind of being an Afro pessimist, I'm like, yeah, it's only gonna get worse, guys. Yeah. All right. I don't know if you want to look backwards. Things were never better. Right, Right. So that's her reading. I think that's very much her lens. But interestingly enough, the book is not a hopeful book.
- [14:09]
B
No, no. I mean, she starts it off by saying, like, things were bad in the 90s, and honestly, they're worse now. Ever heard of Roe v. Wade? Maybe? You know it. It's gone.
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A
Yeah, exactly. So it's like.
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B
It'S not a hopeful book.
- [14:23]
A
It's not a hopeful book, which I enjoy. I think that has been like, you know, this knee jerk response. Response to be like, it's gonna be okay. It's gonna get better. And I think there is actually a valid place to say, hi, guys. They are really bad. And we are kind of reaping the fruit of all of that mess we did in the 90s. Not we, but people did to young girls and women.
- [14:46]
B
I think. I think a lot. You know, this book came out in 2025, and I think a lot about how in that last chapter about power girls on top, she talks about Hillary Clinton, but she also talks about Kamala Harris. And I think about how this book would be different if Kamala Harris had won in 2024.
- [15:04]
A
Yeah.
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B
That there. That, like, there would be probably a push maybe from the publisher or just the general feeling of, like, we did it.
- [15:12]
A
Yeah.
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B
You know, and that in the same ways that we were talking about last time about Trump kind of being this, like, mirror who exposes. Like, he just kind of makes.
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A
Yeah.
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B
He's like one of those lights that.
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A
Shows the blood is a truth serum. Truth serum.
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B
That. That Kamala Harris's loss allows a book like this to actually be more real with itself than. Maybe it would have been interesting had she won.
- [15:37]
A
Perhaps. But I think this book is so informed by Roe v. Wade and the explosion in pornography and the rise in the manosphere that she'd be like, the tenor may have been, okay, it's good that this woman won. But I'm just laying it out. I don't know how much more hopeful it would have been because of, you know, we talk about the fact this is not a hopeful book. So she may have. It may have become like, oh, well, we have this symbolic bright spot of a woman in color, the first black woman president. Right. Which is deeply symbolic. But I don't think it would have changed any of, like, the structural legislative thing. It doesn't change the makeup of the Supreme Court. It doesn't change what's happening in the manosphere. And like, you know, you're a podcast. You know what the industry looks like. You know what the industry looks like.
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B
But you remember, like, when Obama won.
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A
Yeah.
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B
It was like, oh, we're post racial now. And it's like, well, none of that didn't change any of those things. There was like a. Yeah. Like, I think, knowing publishing.
- [16:48]
A
Yeah.
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B
That there probably would have been a push on her to be like, you know, women, like, power. Women in power. We're on top now. Like, sky's the limit, glass ceiling. And I. I don't think that necessarily Sophie Gilbert would believe that to be true because she's clearly smart and analytical. And then, like, she's a real talent. I mean, she's a Pulitzer final. She's so slouched.
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A
Right.
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B
But I think there's, like, this way that people want to be hopeful, and it's easy to be, like, all these things are bad, but now that Kamal is here, like, yeah, women could be perfect.
- [17:25]
A
Yeah, for sure.
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B
Like, men will be gone. So I don't know.
- [17:28]
A
I. That need to. There's neatly in a bow. The neat bow. Yes. Yeah.
- [17:31]
B
She doesn't get to do that. Even if. Even if it. If it is or isn't her impulse. None of us get to read that or have to read that. And I think that the book is better for it, certainly.
- [17:40]
A
Yeah, I agree with you completely. Completely.
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B
Okay. So I think the best way to kind of go through this is to kind of just hit the chapters.
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A
Okay.
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B
I guess. I don't know.
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A
I'm on your show. I love this.
- [17:50]
B
I know this is one of those books where there's. So. I have so many notes.
- [17:54]
A
I want to follow you on it because you have. You didn't like it as much as.
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B
Me, and I didn't like it as much as you, and I think there were some chapters that I loved, and then there were some chapters that I kind of was like, yeah, we know this. Or, like, this doesn't need to be a chapter. You know, I also think part of that is because a lot of the people she cites in this book, I've read their books.
- [18:13]
A
Yeah.
- [18:14]
B
So a lot of it felt like. Like Tressie McMillan Cotton, Imani Perry, Kate Mann. I was like, yeah, no, I know. I was like, hello. Everybody know.
- [18:22]
A
Not everyone has.
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B
I know, but it's hard for me to remember. I know.
- [18:25]
A
Not everyone has. I think about, like, the target audience for this book. I don't want to.
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B
Who do you think it is?
- [18:31]
A
I think for, like, millennial, A bane, perhaps white insert race. Straight woman who may be a mother right now, maybe child free by choice. This is a walk down memory lane in a way that I kind of crave because I'm always in my head about this stuff. You know me, I'm, like, all swirling. And to see someone late. I had moments where I was like, wow. She remembered that. She remembered that. And I've read a review of it, and they were kind of saying that they thought it was more like stenography than anything. But I disagree with that because I think that we are so accustomed to a woman, especially who works in this genre, to have written a book that there's the essay format, and then you have to infuse it with a part of you. You have to bring your trauma into it. What happened to you? Did you get raped? Did your dad touch you? Did you. But you know, all of these things that we expect women to bear their souls in order to think the book is worthy of being read. And she pushed back against it. She doesn't. I mean, she has. There's brief glimmers of her.
- [19:37]
B
There's moments where she's like, I remember this. Or when I was this age, this happened.
- [19:41]
A
Yeah.
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B
Like, but it's. You don't know her any better.
- [19:44]
A
No. And I. I think it. We needed that. We needed kind of like, I'm not the queen. I don't believe in like this idea of like, journalistic objectivity, but we needed somebody that like steps out of themselves and says, here, guys, this is. This is everything.
- [20:01]
B
I think for me, the way that I think about that and I think I just said this at the beginning is like, it's the taking serious of the text and like, not making it personal, but giving it like a serious academic or like intellectual treatment.
- [20:15]
A
Yeah.
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B
That is what I appreciate most about this book is like, yes, she pops in. I remember JLo wore this dress.
- [20:22]
A
Yeah.
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B
It's a big deal. I remember watching the show and it was insane that this happened, but it's not. I remember this show when I was in high school and my high school boyfriend kissed me for the first time. It's like, no, babe, I don't. I don't want you doing that with this because I want people to see these stories and this, this, you know, text as the pop cultural text.
- [20:41]
A
Yeah.
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B
As worthy of a Pulitzer Prize finalist writing about.
- [20:47]
A
Yeah.
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B
And so I really think she. I think she understood that because she talks about in the book. When she took the book out on submission, people were like, can you put more of yourself in it? And she was like, no.
- [20:58]
A
I love a boundaries queen. I love about me too.
- [21:03]
B
Okay, so the first chapter is girl power, boy rage. And it's the. What I'm calling the music chapter. And basically, you know the premise, this chapter sort of sets up how we're going to get the rest of the book, which is this is what happened in the 90s and sort of, this is how we're moving through this.
- [21:22]
A
Yeah.
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B
It's also again, maybe one of the thesis of the book, which is that women are doing things and men are freaking out, cannot handle it. It's. Is that always how it goes? Just women are great and doing cool shit and men are like, nope, can't have it.
- [21:41]
A
You mean in the book or like in the world?
- [21:43]
B
In the world in the book. Like, it just feels like the book could be one sentence, which is women are awesome. Men are freaking out by Sophie Gilbert.
- [21:54]
A
Yes. But what I will say is that she highlights. And this is. I feel like now I'm, like, defending this book, but, like, you don't have to.
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B
I liked the book a lot.
- [22:03]
A
No, no, I think it's the cruelty because it's so normalized at the time. Right?
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B
Yes.
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A
You're not like, wait, they were taking upskirt pictures. Like, the line about Emma Watson, and I'm jumping it. But she says it's like they photographers used to take pictures. They would be on their backs underneath women's skirt, and they would, like, judge whether she was wearing underwear or not. But why are you under there taking a picture of that? Yeah, there's a picture of Emma Watson on, like, her 18th birthday that the day before would have been illegal. Right. And so it's like, I think what she does is, like, get. Women are doing stuff and men are freaking out. But it was just like. But the systems were so horrible to these women. Yes. And I forgot that part because you're just believed.
- [22:49]
B
I mean, I can't speak for you, but, like, culturally, we women in general, I'm. I'm a millennial. So this was. This is all my shit. Yeah, we believed it.
- [22:58]
A
Yeah.
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B
Like, we believe that Emma Watson was, like, a slutty girl. Yeah.
- [23:02]
A
You know, Misha Bartley, Lindsay Lohan, all these. They were like, they're so slutty. Bad girls. And the thing that I was taken by was, like, how much money was made off these women?
- [23:12]
B
How much. Like, there's a part where she talks about the three websites that were founded off Paris Hilton alone. Tmz, fleshbot, and Perez Hilton all were founded on being obsessed with harassing, being cruel to Paris Hilton.
- [23:30]
A
Yeah.
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B
Like, talk about knowing your power.
- [23:32]
A
Yeah. Yeah. And so that's what I think, you know, was interesting. But, yeah, the music chapter sets up the music portion of all of this.
- [23:42]
B
Yeah, it sets up the music portion and to me was like, not my favorite chapter. I think she gets into a lot more. But that's also where she sets up the porn thing. Yeah, really. And then she takes it to the next chapter, which is the fashion chapter. Showgirl Overexposure in the New Millennium. And I thought this chapter was pretty. Pretty fantastic. I'm not a fashion person, so why.
- [24:02]
A
Did you think it was fantastic?
- [24:03]
B
I thought she did a good job of explaining how the aesthetics of porn were showing up in fashion and how the ex. And how fashion is visually so important to how the culture looks like. I thought she drew a really clear line for me between porn being what was exciting to fashion people and fashion people being what was exciting to the rest of pop culture. So, like, the ways that those work together, I thought that was really interesting. And then I also thought, like, just talking about. She talks about how sex was culture, and there's all these Tom Ford documentaries, and they're all coming together and, like, that this is how raunch culture sort of started. It started in the fashion industry. And so I thought that that was, like, really clear in my mind of, like, oh, I. I was too young in the early 90s when all this was happening to. To see and understand. I just remember being like, oh, like, you know, Demi Moore's pregnant and topless. Like, whoa, crazy. But I didn't understand. I didn't know, like, about Terry World.
- [25:08]
A
I didn't know Terry. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the fashion. I knew a lot of that stuff. Like, you know, if you follow me, you know how much I love fashion and fashion history. But I don't think people often make that connection of, like, fashion and porn. I hadn't myself, you know, because I do think there is an element of fashion that is very desexualized. Like, they don't want women who have voluntuous, sensual. They don't like flesh. You know what I mean? And like.
- [25:39]
B
And even, like, hair sometimes. It's like the hair so slick back.
- [25:42]
A
So, like, if they get human hanger walking down the runways, that's what they would do. Which to me is the opposite of sexy. Like, when I think of, like, a sexy woman or the act of sex, you think flesh, sweat, you know, curve, boobs, whatever it is. And fashion is, like, the opposite of that. But then it is this very, like, curated, sanitized version of sex and pornography, which, you know, fit with the esthetic at the time. So it did kind of rupture some of my preexisting points of view.
- [26:14]
B
Yeah, I think that's what I liked about this chapter is, like, it. It sort of like, shook up my thinking a little more. I think the music chapter felt a little more obvious to me of, like. Yeah, for sure.
- [26:24]
A
Yeah.
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B
Like, I mean, I. I was kind of like, oh, yeah, where did all those angry women go?
- [26:29]
A
Right? Like, they're all Alanis Morissette. And do you know what? They were so cool. I.
- [26:35]
B
That was my first cd. Yes. And also Chuck Berry.
- [26:38]
A
And they were so, like. They were, like, so stylized. Like, they were embodied. I think, you Know, they were really embodied women. And she does a good job of showing us. It's like, then we just got like the cookie cutter pop star. I started thinking of, like, the Sabrina Carpenter album cover, you know, when she's like on her knees and like, you know, her response to it is like, it's not that deep. And then I'm like, oh, the girls don't know the history.
- [27:05]
B
Right?
- [27:06]
A
Like, they don't. That's why I think the book is actually important. Like, if you go back and you're like, well, we came for an era where women were free to do this. They were angry, they didn't have to be sexual. And then we end up where we are now. And I like how she spoke about pink stupid girls, which is actually very mean to women. Right? Yeah, yeah. You know, the woman becomes a problem rather than the system. The system. But yeah, it was good to the memory lane of it all, which maybe some people at home may not enjoy, because I think sometimes maybe what you were longing for is it to be more contemporary. Like, whether it's like the trans. The trans element or like, exploring where we are now in relationship. Yeah.
- [27:51]
B
I think sometimes I wanted more connection to the current. So I liked revisiting the past, obviously. Like, I was like. Like the Janet Jackson stuff. I was like, oh, my God. Yes. Yes, Janet. Okay, then we go to chapter three, another chapter that I love. This is the movie chapter Girls on.
- [28:08]
A
Film, which I didn't love because I don't like.
- [28:11]
B
Is about. I don't love films, but I'm obsessed with incels. And this is our deeply incel chapter. This is about what the is wrong with boys and men. And you know what? I thought she laid this out so well. She starts with the movie American Pie.
- [28:30]
A
Oh, my God. Yeah.
- [28:31]
B
Which.
- [28:31]
A
Well, you always hate it.
- [28:34]
B
Hated, hated. I think it's stupid. I don't like that kind of shit. I don't. I don't like the bromance movie. I was a true rom com girly. Still am.
- [28:45]
A
That's as problematic, the rom com. Sure.
- [28:48]
B
I just don't like boys. I don't like dirty boy humor. Like, I don't agree.
- [28:53]
A
Yeah, I'm. I'm with you. I'm with you. I'm with you.
- [28:55]
B
Yeah. So for me, my problematic thing of, you know, I just. I'd rather have it be, like, romance romantic versus, like, guys trying to fudge.
- [29:04]
A
Yeah.
- [29:04]
B
Yeah. But I. I guess, like, she's asking this or she's telling us that, like, these millennial boys are learning about how to be adult men through these movies. And I. Not to sound naive, I really had never considered that people were learning how to interact with each other from watching movies, which. Saying it out loud sounds so.
- [29:27]
A
No, I don't think you're wrong, because I actually. I don't. And this is where I actually differ from a lot of people who write about pop culture as a living. I think sometimes the influence of these movies and these musicians, it's overstated, but I think it's culturally specific. I think there are cultures where media is hugely influential and there are cultures where that are maybe more community oriented, where you learn how to be yourself through other people. Right. Like, you're like, I learned how to be me through the older women I was watching and my peers. But I do think there is a suburban malaise or, like, a city loneliness where there are people that they are learning. American Pie was their text. They didn't have necessarily a big brother or older cousins in real life. They were looking at. I'm like, I wouldn't like him.
- [30:25]
B
And, like, men aren't talking to each other.
- [30:28]
A
Yeah.
- [30:29]
B
In American culture.
- [30:30]
A
No, they're not in this way at all. They're not like.
- [30:34]
B
And I think maybe in America, women are still more talking to each other. Like, I used to go get my nails done with my mom and her friend.
- [30:43]
A
Yeah.
- [30:43]
B
And like that there was some intergenerational interactions that were happening more so. Yeah. In the 90s. And also that girls know how girls are taught how to build relationships with one another. So you have a sleepover with girlfriends and you're talking about things.
- [31:00]
A
Yeah, this happened.
- [31:01]
B
I was embarrassed.
- [31:02]
A
This happened.
- [31:03]
B
I had butterflies. Whatever. And boys are going to a sleepover and they're playing video games, and they're talking about the video game, and they're not taught how to interact with each other.
- [31:12]
A
Other.
- [31:12]
B
And a great book that I read last year, though, there's. I have issues with it, but overall, I thought it was really fantastic.
- [31:18]
A
Is.
- [31:18]
B
I hate the title, but it's called Boy mom. And it was all about sort of.
- [31:23]
A
The title is just.
- [31:24]
B
The title is so ick. I almost didn't read it. I heard the woman do an interview, and it was so good that I was like, okay, the title is My Death. Okay. I hate the title, but she talks a lot about, like, kids books and how for little girls, they have books that are pink and purple. And it's like. It's like Tracy's birthday party. And it's all about how Christiana has two birthday parties to go to and she doesn't know. She doesn't want Tracy to be sad, but she doesn't want her friend Megan to be sad. And how do you balance expectations and being a good friend? And that book is hot pink and purple. And that book signals to boys. This is a book for girls. So even if your parent is like, hey 8 year old, you should read this book.
- [32:05]
A
Yeah.
- [32:05]
B
An 8 year old boy is going to say, no, that's a girl's book. But what's inside the book is how to be a friend.
- [32:11]
A
Yeah.
- [32:11]
B
And the boys books are blue and green. And it's like Johnny goes into do adventures by himself and conquers this and does this and so that she's talking a lot about how like boys don't even have access to some of the same information that girls have because it's packaged in a way that is like a turnoff for boys. Or like she talks about the movie Barbie. She took her sons to see Barbie and, and they were like, I don't like. There's no man in this movie who's even redeeming. There's not even a. I mean but Bobby's a movie.
- [32:40]
A
Why would Bobby's a movie for girls though?
- [32:42]
B
I'm guessing. But I think the point is like they're. I think her point is more that like not only do boys not know how to do this stuff, they're not taught how to do it by the men in their lives, but they can't even go find a movie that's not like boys doing bad. Yeah. I mean I think when you think about like the movie, like the Hangover, that's a friend movie but really it's about. It's a hero's journey. We got to go find our friend. They're not sitting around talking about how much they miss him and they love him and like what it means to be without a friend or like babysitter's club. There's no boy babysitter who's like friends with girls.
- [33:15]
A
Like you know, I don't know, maybe I'm buying a lot of books for my son. The books I read to my son are the books I read to my daughter. So I.
- [33:22]
B
Yes, but that's when you're still in control. I think when your kid turns 8 and you're not like I'm.
- [33:28]
A
I mean. No, my son is very self directed. So he's into the things he's into.
- [33:34]
B
Yes.
- [33:35]
A
Is he skewing a certain way? But he'll watch Paw Patrol, but he'll watch Gabby's Dollhouse. But Gabby's Dollhouse is interesting because, like, as much as she's got a girl audience, a lot of boys do also want to watch the movie, because I think these are the cats or whatever it is. I don't know. I mean, I'll have to read the book. I do understand what she's saying, but.
- [33:57]
B
And I'm also not doing a great job. No, I think she does a better job than me.
- [34:00]
A
I think more so that women are socialized into doing certain types of kin work that bonds you to other women, whereas boys don't have to do that. Like the boy. Never.
- [34:11]
B
But they're also not even. I think her point is, like, that they're not even shown that that's what girls are doing.
- [34:16]
A
That's your. That's not.
- [34:18]
B
I don't.
- [34:19]
A
I don't. You. You raise what you raise. I think there's this. Now there's this culture where people are like, oh, my son's an incel. Because he read all this, and I'm like, raise your kids. I don't know.
- [34:31]
B
I really want you to read the book.
- [34:32]
A
No, no. I'm just like, it's how you. Like, it's how you socialize them and how you raise them. Like, there are cultures where the boys actually cook, right? There's parts of Caribbean culture where, like, it's the. You go to the house and it's. The man is the one that can throw down because. Yeah, to cook. And as a result, like, men. And a lot I've seen Caribbean families with the men do the cooking. Right? And so that's because of how you're raised and how you're socialized. And it means that the man is going to be next to the jerk draw. I'm all like, even in American culture, men barbecue at the grill. Yeah, they're at the grill. So it's just like, how you're socializing what you're taught. The consumption argument. I don't buy it. And maybe that's why the boy mum thing gives me the ick, because I notice the moms want the boys to be that way. They're like, he's so. He's a boy. He's so rough and tumble. And I'm like, is it the material or what? The stories you are telling him, you know, like, are you allowing him to be more cerebral? Are you allowing him to do activities that are like, my son fences, but I want my daughter to fence, too. My son swim. My daughter will swim, too. Like, like, they're not even Doing sports that are. The sports are divided by gender, but, like, girls and boys can also do those sports. My son does piano. My daughter's doing piano, too. So I don't know. Even when you're. When they're making their own choices, how have you set them up to make choices? But I don't want to. I don't want to be rough on her book because it's not.
- [35:53]
B
I'm curious to hear what you think of the book, because also, I think one of the things she talks about is, like, boys and girls are the same in a lot of ways until, like, seven or eight.
- [36:04]
A
Yeah, I know that.
- [36:04]
B
Like, that is when I've read.
- [36:06]
A
I've read the thing about boyhood. Like, girl. Boys are actually more affectionate, I think, up until age 9 or something like that. Yes. And then they change. So I do.
- [36:15]
B
And that is. And I agree that it is socializing.
- [36:17]
A
Yeah.
- [36:17]
B
And I agree that it is. Like, I don't. I think that, you know, you, You. We as a society, we raise the kids that we raise. Also, like you're saying. I do think there's something about what options there are.
- [36:28]
A
Yeah, you're right.
- [36:29]
B
For boys. And I think that's really. Her point is, like, that the options for. For boys. Air quotes, I guess, are the stories they're being told are, like, about individual boys going to do things. It's not about how boys navigate, like, having a fight or like that.
- [36:47]
A
She.
- [36:47]
B
She tells a story how one of her kids was, like, got in trouble, and the teacher said, well, what would you say to your best friend if he was being this hard on himself? And he said, well, that's not my business. I. I wouldn't tell him what to do. Whereas a girl would be like, you know, girls are taught to care about other people. And like, I mean. Yeah, I mean, he's like, mind my business.
- [37:07]
A
Mind your business. I think girls, we should be. That's my other hot take, is that sometimes I think girls should be raised to be more than, like, boys.
- [37:14]
B
I agree. You know what?
- [37:15]
A
Mind your business.
- [37:16]
B
Like, I agree. Okay, wait, back to the book. We're actually talking. I know girl on girl, but I do. I. I was thinking a lot about boy, mom, as I was reading, especially this chapter.
- [37:26]
A
Okay. The incel.
- [37:27]
B
So, yeah, about. Back to the incels. I do think she talks about Sophie Gilbert talks about the. The boy, the man who did the shooting in Isla Vista, and how in his manifesto, it's filled with film pop culture references. And I said, oh, my God.
- [37:52]
A
So I like, I Used to work. The reason I know some of this stuff, I used to work with somebody who I won't name who's. Who reads a lot of shooter manifestos. And they're very tragic, but there's also, like, a comedic loneliness and pathetic nature to it. Yeah, I did know that they are filled with, like, these references to, like, pop culture and, like, the world outside. And. And I wonder how, like, is that true for boys in general?
- [38:24]
B
I.
- [38:24]
A
You know. Right.
- [38:26]
B
Like, are the movies their friends? I guess that's kind of the question. Like, are these things where they're able to, like, feel.
- [38:35]
A
We can't use, like, an incel. Who shoots up to school manifesto to figure out what's going on in, like, boys and men's mind? Even though I don't think boys and men are having good thoughts in general.
- [38:44]
B
I don't think so.
- [38:45]
A
I'm just like, I am. Because, you know, there is that. She mentions Andrew Tate. Right. And the Andrew Tate of it all. And we know these men have big audiences of young, very, I don't know, young boys susceptible to not the most positive messaging. But. And maybe it's my. My timeline. The people I follow. You'd be surprised how many women are in those likes.
- [39:10]
B
I know.
- [39:11]
A
That's all I will say.
- [39:14]
B
No, you're gonna have to say more.
- [39:15]
A
No, I'm just.
- [39:16]
B
Why do you think that is?
- [39:17]
A
No, I think that we have. We have made the dialogue around the manosphere as if only men are consuming their content and only men resonate with their message. But you will. If you speak to women in the world and in the wild, and if you look at the likes, you would be surprised how many women agree. How many women are in the comments when it comes out that a rape accuser was lying, saying, we need to create. Create prison sentences for women who lie about being raped, when the data shows overwhelmingly that it's incredibly rare. And the most likely thing that's going to happen is that a man is going to get away with rape. Then a woman is going to lie about rape. Right, Right. So I think that these. Whether it's like the men that have these huge followings of incels or like women who do like them, they are so crude and visceral. It makes people feel something and people want to feel something. You know what I mean? And so they are grav. Irritating to that. And what's happened is that the. The left or more progressive men and women have kind of like, seeded that ground because they're just like, oh, the Internet, it's So everyone's so messy. Messy and nasty. So you've just seeded that ground and that's, that's what's taking up the space.
- [40:33]
B
Yeah. Okay, I want to stay on this topic, so let's take a quick break and then we'll be right back. New year, new books, same me. I am so excited to bring you guys a whole new batch of great reads, exclusive author interviews and behind the scenes book gossip. But I'm only able to do all of that with your support. Over on Patreon and Substack on Patreon, you can join the Stacks community, the Stacks Pack, where we've got monthly book club meetups, a private discord, a year long mega reading challenge which will help you to achieve your reading goals and branch out in your reading life. Plus you get those bonus episodes and right now you get access to the Stacks Reading Tracker, which is only available for the Stacks Pack through the end of January. And voting for the Stackies is happening this month too, over on Substack. You can subscribe to my newsletter Unstacked, where I keep the bookish conversations going. You're gonna get a healthy dose of pop culture over there. At least one hot take, maybe 5,000, I don't know, depends on the week. Plus you get that monthly bonus episode. And listen, if you don't have a few extra dollars to spare right now, I get it. There are free options for both the Patreon and the Substack. But what I want to say is that making this podcast is a huge team effort and by supporting my Patreon and my substack, you allow me to to support the team that makes this show. Without you, there is no podcast. So listen, if you or your friends are looking to meet other book lovers, get back into reading or just support more independent media like this podcast, come hang out with me at patreon.com the stacks to join the stacks pack and Tracy thomas.substack.com to subscribe to my newsletter or both. I would love to have you. Okay, we're back. I think one of the things about like the Incel and the Andrew Tate and that like really far extreme is that it lets a lot of people much closer to the middle who are saying crazy into a microphone. My current example, are you up on the like Olivia newsy stuff?
- [42:32]
A
Oh yeah, of course, the drama.
- [42:35]
B
So we're recording this in the beginning of December, so a lot of this has probably changed as people are listening to this at the end of January. That being said, I was, I did not know that Olivia Newsy had a relationship with Keith Olbermann.
- [42:47]
A
Oh, you didn't?
- [42:48]
B
I didn't know. I did not know. But guess what? I know now. I know all about it.
- [42:52]
A
Yeah.
- [42:53]
B
Because Keith Olbermann, a sort of center, left center political figure, political commentator, sports guy, went on his podcast for an hour and talked about every little thing in their relationship. And I said to myself, this is one of the most disgusting things I've ever heard. I cannot stop listening. And also, this belongs. Yeah, over there with the deep manosphere stuff, but it's all the same.
- [43:27]
A
Oh, interesting.
- [43:28]
B
Repackaged by Keith Olbermann.
- [43:30]
A
Well, I like the tweet where he was. Because for the people at home that don't know, Olivia is a young journalist who found herself in a scandal because she was dating a significantly older man. And I think they were living together, they were going to write book together. They're both journalists. And it comes out Ryan Lizza. Ryan Lizza. And it comes out that she's having an affair with RFK Jr that was never physical. Then she goes off in her shame. RFK Jr stays being the Maha man and in his happy marriage. And then Olivia gets a book deal and she also gets. And she releases the book and she also gets a job at Vanity Fair as their west coast editor. So it seems that she's having this redemption arc and then her ex is on substack right now, like scorching the earth, revealing various affairs she's had with significantly older men. All that to say, though Ryan speaks about how much money Keith spent on her rent and her college and her buying her jewelry. I was like, well, he seems like a good boyfriend and I appreciate the fact that he tweeted, like you say, I spent this month on jewelry. But over the course of a relationship that's only like $2,000 per gift. And I was like, oh, you're quite generous. So that was like my reading on it. I was like, she's just running game. She's running game on these old men. And old men like to give a young, pretty girl some money and she's getting what she can can out of this situation. She may have a bit of a fetish, but, like, less for her to deal with.
- [44:57]
B
Well, I, I don't care what she does. I care about Keith Olbermann, a 66 year old man going on his podcast and saying, her parents were on my side in the breakup, which is in which she was 18 when they dated.
- [45:09]
A
Which makes my guy feel deeply for her. That makes me actually feel so much compassion. Because that tells me so much.
- [45:17]
B
So, so much. I mean, but the thing is, like, it's not even what. I mean, it's not even about her. This whole thing about him feeling okay to go to a microphone and speak about his ex, who was 18 years old. She was like, 21 when they broke up. He was 52.
- [45:36]
A
Crazy.
- [45:37]
B
You are a grown man now. You're pushing 70. And like, that men are taught that, like, this is the way.
- [45:46]
A
Yeah.
- [45:47]
B
And it's also, like, it also made me kind of feel bad for him because I was like, oh, you're so still broken up that she dumped you. Like, you're still her power.
- [45:55]
A
Olivia. Yeah.
- [45:57]
B
But I think all of these things are connected to the manosphere in a way that we only pigeonhole, like, some of the most dark, violent. And we don't. We don't acknowledge Keithman talking about Olivia Nuz's eyebrows as anything. And I'm like, that's.
- [46:14]
A
I'm with you. I think the center and the left and also has an issue of rampant and dangerous misogyny. But, like, it's men.
- [46:21]
B
It's the men.
- [46:22]
A
The men. Like, I think that because the right are so naked with it and because I think it's very easy to point the finger at the right, we can be like, the manosphere is a right wing problem. But when you start to pick apart even more apparently progressive and centrists, the men in these podcasts, or what they're saying, or just creating media.
- [46:46]
B
Right.
- [46:46]
A
You're like, ew. You know, So I agree with you. Right.
- [46:51]
B
And I do think, like, broadly, that's this book, Right. She's talking about all the ways. I mean, the next chapter is about reality tv. It's all created by men, which I didn't agree.
- [47:00]
A
I don't like her reality TV take.
- [47:02]
B
Okay. Oh, talk about it. Talk about it. Yeah.
- [47:04]
A
You know, as a big. What I do, I think she does a great job of I want to give her her things is she has all of this data and research. She cites all the best people talking about just like the imagery, the stereotypical imagery in reality TV and the kind of 1D 2D imagery of women it creates in a way that she finds negative. But maybe it's because I come from a different television tradition. I think the thing about reality TV that cannot be understated is that the fact it's one of the few places where you can see older women on television. And I just say women over 40. It's one of the few places and they are the central. They are the protagonists. They are the subjects. They are not objects. Right. It's one of the few places out of, like, outside of a prestige drama that maybe Nicole Kidman or Reese Witherspoon is in.
- [48:00]
B
Yeah.
- [48:01]
A
It's own, like an older women are central. Older women are driving their own stories. And older women are showing you what it's like to age in public, to be discarded by the man, to be forgotten by your kids, to be dealing with alcoholism or an eating disorder or whatever it is. And scripting has decided it's not going to do that. Music has decided it's not going to do that. Right.
- [48:23]
B
Yeah.
- [48:23]
A
Reality TV is the only place where older women exist. Now, do we like the content? I think that's a normative way of looking at television that I think the viewer is there to decide. Because I don't want to watch a show about very pristine older women who never get plastic surgery and have perfect politics. I like mess.
- [48:42]
B
No, thanks.
- [48:43]
A
I want to see the mess. Throw the drinks. I want the Nini leakes memes. That's why I come back to this thing. Because it's real. Right? It's real. And as much as some of it is manufactured and all that stuff, Karen Huger going to prison because of a fourth DUI tells me something about black women and alcoholism. A conversation that we're not having in our community, but it's being thrust in our face now. Like, we have to talk about it. And so I think she comes too hard on reality TV in a way that I didn't. I just didn't agree. But some other women may read it and be like, you're completely right. Like, Flavor of Love. Love and hip Hop. The Bachelor, the Swan, Extreme Makeover. These were all, for the most part, harmful and should not have existed in our culture.
- [49:29]
B
And also both things can be true. Yeah, like. Like something like Real Housewives can be harmful and also be one of the few places we're having conversations about colorism. You know, like, it can be both things. I do. I do agree with you. I don't think she gives reality TV enough credit in a lot of ways. Even a show like the Bachelor that is like, deeply as, like, an idea crazy. I. I think that the Bachelor has really. Has had really interesting things to say about the changes in our country. Yeah. A friend of this show, Chelsea DeVontes, who hosts glamorous Trash, she believes that. How goes the Bachelor? So goes the nation.
- [50:07]
A
Oh, I love.
- [50:08]
B
Like, as the Bachelor was getting more progressive, so was the country. And then There was, like, the shift in the politics. And that was actually a question I had for Sophie Gilbert, which was like, I'd be really curious to. To have her plot out some of these cultural changes with the changing presidential administrations.
- [50:28]
A
Like, at what, like, mapping them onto each other?
- [50:30]
B
Yes. Like, when exactly in Bush's time did we make this shift? And, like, what was the shift from when Obama was president to when Trump. Like, yeah. How did these things change? Because I think right now a lot of people are noticing, maybe anecdotally, that, like, institutions seem to be kind of, like, more conservative. The New York Times just released their 10 best books of the year. There's not a black book on it.
- [50:53]
A
Oh, interesting. Or not.
- [50:55]
B
A book authored by a black author, like, feels weird.
- [50:59]
A
So it's.
- [50:59]
B
Everyone.
- [51:00]
A
Is everyone unless white? Or, like, what's the.
- [51:02]
B
There's other people of color.
- [51:04]
A
Okay.
- [51:05]
B
But there's a book about Mother Emanuel Church, but it's written by a white historian. And so I think there's this sort of thing of, like, who's telling the stories. Whereas in 20. Whereas, like, two or three years ago, they would have three of the 10.
- [51:17]
A
And they would never have put that. There wouldn't have been that blind spot or there would have been the. Care to be, like, we should have a black author on here.
- [51:25]
B
Correct. And so I think, like, I would just love to see, like, the graph where she plots all these moments in time against the presidential administrations. Because I was trying to, like, you know, obviously there's the part where she talks about 9, 11 and what that does. And I thought that chapter was really interesting, though challenging to read because it's pretty graphic. But, like, that, like, the ways that the politics of the moment were informing the pop culture, I was really interested in that. And I think that that goes hand in hand with reality tv.
- [51:57]
A
I. And I think she. It's just a flourish, but she mentions that, like, oh, the. The judge of the Apprentice ends up being the president. But I think there is. I think if she sat in the reality TV of it all, more she maybe think, okay, so why people think it's so ludicrous that people voted for Trump even though he was the host of the Apprentice. But I'm like, you guys do not understand the power of reality tv.
- [52:22]
B
That's how a figure and how much.
- [52:24]
A
People just love the villain in the reality TV shows. Like, you, like, you love that person and his brand became you're fired. And he's kind of known for the guy in the White House who fires people all the Time, like, you know what I mean? And so, like, I think if you have a lot of judgments about reality TV as a vehicle and the reality TV viewer, then you kind of. I think some of the stuff is that's attributed to pornography that you could. Was maybe misattributed. And I think that reality TV is actually more of a cultural engine that's shaping women and shaping outcomes and shaping pop culture far more than perhaps pornography. But maybe that's because I haven't sat with pornography enough to like, really see the connections. But I wasn't necessarily compelled by the pornography argument. Neither do I think that the judgment has its place in this particular book. Even though I think there are plenty of judgments that are fair to be had. A pornography.
- [53:24]
B
Yeah, I agree with that. The next chapter is the beauty standards chapter, which I was mixed on. I just didn't. That one felt kind of like obvious to me. Like, it was like skinny lip filler. These people spent a lot of money. Like, biggest loser was bad. Like, you know, we, we called all these. You know, the fact that Nicole Richie is being called voluptuous is crazy to me.
- [53:49]
A
Yeah.
- [53:49]
B
I have met Nicole Richie in real life. A very slight woman, but she wasn't there. But also in height. Oh, she's petite, but she's just a little person.
- [53:59]
A
But I think that. And I've said, I said this, I've said this to other people. What we miss when we're analyzing Nicole Richie, that she's a woman of color. Right. And they. I think people forget that. That, yes, they're receiving her as one, but they're forgetting she's one. And she was juxtaposition with Paris Hilton, like super tall and super lily white. But yeah, like, it's. Yeah. Everyone was skinny and lip filler and hair extensions. I think that unfortunately, because Beauty Standards is written about so much. Mm. People are growing bored of it. And so. And you have to be. I struggle with it too. Like, how can I say. Something not novel, but something piercing and clear and legible. And it's now, I think it feels like ground. That's 12. I was going to write a book once. Like, you know when that book proposal. That really never was, but it was about like our beauty standards. And unfortunately it's because it's been written about so much that. Yeah. That people have that response that you do. Like, want, want.
- [54:57]
B
Like, it just feels like low hanging fruit. I just feel like it's been. It's been written about. It's. We now know that we were being mean to Jessica Simpson, she was really a size 2. It was horrible. Every. Like, I think the more interesting thing is what you've written about now, which is like the rise of Sculpt.
- [55:12]
A
Yeah.
- [55:13]
B
Which I'm just like, this is. And obviously that's not in the scope of this book.
- [55:17]
A
Yeah.
- [55:17]
B
But to me, the interesting thing is not retreading how.
- [55:20]
A
Yeah, it's the next front. Yeah, it's the next front. And that is, I think maybe the limitations of the book is the thing you're yearning for about what happened in the past. How is it informing now? You wanted it. You wanted it to keep jumping forward. But the books are retrospective, Right. So that, like, the conceit of the book is like, hey, we're going to sit in the past and understand the past and what it meant. Whereas I think that for somebody like yourself, especially in your people listening at home who probably read a ton, they're like, yeah, I know that. But I think a lot of people don't know that.
- [55:53]
B
I think that's right. You know, And I think that's why the chapters I liked the most were the ones that I was like, oh, I'm learning, like, the next chapter, Final Girl Violence and extreme sex post 9 11. Sign me up.
- [56:03]
A
That when you learn about what they're doing in Iraq and Afghanistan and like, Abu Ghraib stuff. Yeah, yeah. Not too many spoilers, but she does show how, like, the military industrial complex maps onto porn and sex and as a result, pop culture. Like, how they're speaking to each other in ways that I did not know about because it's so graphic and I.
- [56:27]
B
Hadn'T even considered, considered, like. I know. I think this is again, what I wanted, like, from, like, how did the presidential administration line up? I think I would have loved more chapters like this one that talk about how the political moment, the energy, like, because she talks about how post 911 it was either celebrity Phil, celebrity fluff, or, like, revenge.
- [56:51]
A
Yeah.
- [56:52]
B
Those were the two aesthetics, like, the two things that people were interested in. It was either, I don't give a fog, like, no Surreal life or Hostile.
- [57:01]
A
We're going to kill you.
- [57:02]
B
Yes, we're going to. We're going to end. We're going to make it hurt.
- [57:04]
A
Yeah.
- [57:05]
B
And how Abu Ghraib, like, how those images were sort of this real life movie. Right. Like, this real life scary thing. And I just. I mean, it made me text a friend, a serious writer, and be like, what's the definitive Abu Ghraib to know?
- [57:26]
A
So I'm going to get you a Guest that you have to have on. He's a dear friend of mine. His name is Seth Harp. He's a contributing editor to the Rolling Stone, and he's written some of the definitive journalism on, like, the military and terrorism and.
- [57:40]
B
Can't wait.
- [57:41]
A
You. You need to speak to Seth, because Seth writes a lot about Fort Bragg and he knows a lot of stuff. His book is great, but, like, talking to some. I think the reason I think she couldn't do that is because that's a job of, like, a Seth Hart, who, in my mind, he's so well read, so brilliant. But I think the military beat, military and politics and, like, not even conspiracy, but the thing. Things that exist at the subterranean level in the US military industrial complex, that's the job of somebody who's that. That's their beat. They're really well sourced. He's a vet himself who just understands the culture intimately, but then can be like, zoom out. Historically, I. She just wouldn't be in her bag. Right.
- [58:23]
B
But when she does it in this book, you're like, whoa, yes, yes, yes, yes.
- [58:27]
A
But maybe she didn't. Then. That's the work of. She should have just gone deeper into that.
- [58:31]
B
Yes, I think that I just. Yes, I think. I think, like, the way that she maps everything onto porn, I wish she had mapped a little bit more things back onto politics or, like, what else was going on at the time. Like, you're in L. A, I'm in L. A, and I. My guest. I have a spoiler. I have a guest next week who wrote a book about the LA fires. One of the things I know, but. But one of the things he talks about that I always forget is that when the fires were happening, so was the funeral for Jimmy Carter. And I feel like one of the things I love is when books take things that were happening at the same time to be like, oh, as this. As, like, the war in Iraq was going on, this is what was on reality tv. Or like, these were the movies coming out. And so I love when that happens in this book.
- [59:16]
A
Yeah. And that's why I think it should. That's why I make the argument that it's at its most powerful as a retrospective. Like, I didn't think pulling us into the present isn't the job that she should do because she just uncovers all of these things that I didn't know happened. Yes. And I think that they were things that were acting on us that we weren't aware of that were really important. But. Yeah. And it's very vivid as well. Probably trigger warning. Right. I don't know if you put those out there. But, like, it's. It's. No, but it's, like, graphic. It gets.
- [59:46]
B
That chapter is very.
- [59:47]
A
It gets graphic, like, in a way that I was like, oh, I also listened to the audiobook, so some of it, I was, like, driving my kids to school, so I'd be like, okay. You know, basically.
- [59:57]
B
Yeah, no, I think you're right. I think that those moments are when the book is sort of at its best and, like, when the retrospective is most powerful. And I think maybe that is why I felt like it didn't always hit for me is that some chapters she does this really well, and some chapters she doesn't, which maybe made me yearn for her bringing us more to the moment, like, making it make sense. But, like, in this chapter, the final girl chapter, I didn't feel like she needed to bring it to the present because I felt like she was really rooted in the time and what it meant. Yeah.
- [60:28]
A
I think it's just. I. I think it's because you read so much and know so much and maybe.
- [60:33]
B
No, but then I agree.
- [60:34]
A
No, and I think maybe your audience will feel like the stacks listener may be the same, you know, but yeah, for, like, just your regular, like, some of my friends who are, like, super intelligent, great careers, but they're like, girl, I ain't reading all those books. So, like, totally. I think for the, like, maybe your typical, like, casual reader who likes pop culture. This. They were like, all of it, maybe. Because some of it is. We have to realize that some of these ideas are new ideas to some people. Like, not everyone is, like, reading from the moment they wake up or even analyzing pop culture or the news in that way. So maybe I think some of it may be specific to, like, really voracious readers and be like, yeah, but I remember that I think about that because I'm reading cultural criticism in the Atlantic or the New Yorker. So this is well, trodden ground for me.
- [61:21]
B
And also people who like and think about pop culture in general.
- [61:26]
A
Yeah.
- [61:27]
B
Like, there's a lot of people who think pop culture is frivolous.
- [61:30]
A
And most people.
- [61:31]
B
Most people. And so this will feel like new in a lot of ways for those people because they'll be like, oh, yeah. Okay. The next chapter, my least favorite chapter in the whole book, Girl on Girls Confessional Auteur. This is the Lena Dunham Issa Rae chapter. It was a snooze for me. I. The only thing I took away from this chapter Was, am I a bad person if I don't like Lena Dunham and Taylor Swift gift? Because I don't like that you don't.
- [61:56]
A
I. I don't think I love Lena as a spectacle. I think she's so. She's the funniest. She makes. No one makes me laugh more than Lena Dunham. Like, just the stuff that happens to her. The stuff with the dog. Like, she gave the dog back. And then the people.
- [62:09]
B
The.
- [62:09]
A
The people that gave her. She's the dog. Were like, you're a bad person. I'm like, wait, why are white people fighting over dogs? She doesn't want the dog anymore. Like, I just find. I find her really funny and I like her work.
- [62:19]
B
But, yeah, I just. It's not for me. She's not for me. And so this chapter, I was just like, okay, I guess she's revolutionary. I don't care.
- [62:27]
A
I personally, because, you know, I feel like Girls is kind of like the kind of annoying stepchild of Sex and the City. Like, if Carrie Bradshaw and Big had met in another timeline. No, Big already came in with a kid. It would have been Hannah. He'd be like, you weirdo. Why you go to St. Anne's?
- [62:46]
B
Why don't you like me?
- [62:47]
A
Why don't you like Fendi Bags? Was like, you're a bad stepmom. That's what girls like in conversation to each other. So I would have. I actually think the tracing would have been more interesting being Sex and the City and Girls and talking about the ways those two shows are so different, showing a different type of New York. Also the issues with diversity. Like, and I think they're both really important show. I don't. I don't actually think Girls should be more diverse because those girls don't hang around with black girls.
- [63:12]
B
Duh.
- [63:13]
A
So, like, I. Neither should Sex and the Same City. So I think that would have been a better retrospective in Tracing. I don't enjoy the Insecure to Girls comp, because I think insecure. Insecure LA is a character and insecure in the way that New York is a character in Sex and the City. But the girls and girls, they could have been in Portland. They could. They could have been in a lot of places anywhere. They could have. You know what I mean? They should have been in Portland. But, yeah, I just, I. That I felt the same way. But I do think. And this is where I'm going to defend Sophie Gilbert, I do think the comp is important because I don't know if history will remember Insecure in The way it should be remembered.
- [63:54]
B
I agree. I think Insecure deserves its own.
- [63:57]
A
It deserves all of its things and to not even elevate it, to put it where it should be, which is next to girls in the, you know, the television canon and these two like, you know, like kind of semi autobiographical pieces of work. Yeah. I don't like especially where the country is where this anti D backlashes the way they're trying to erase the past.
- [64:18]
B
Yeah.
- [64:19]
A
I'm worried that people won't realize how like 10 years from now is it on a streamer. Like where. Where does it live? You know, in the way television is. You know, like things are going to be erased from history, guys.
- [64:31]
B
Right, Right.
- [64:32]
A
We don't have DVDs, we don't have like these physical items. These things just exist on the cloud. So there's a version where they scrub black art from the 2010s and the 2000s. They just get rid of it. And I'm worried that's going to happen. So I think from the archivist in me is really glad she did that. That it's in text that hey, this thing existed. It was really important and we can't forget.
- [64:55]
B
Yeah, I agree with you that. With that. I just thought the chapter was a little bit.
- [64:58]
A
Yeah, I agree.
- [64:59]
B
Yeah. The next chapter is girl boss female ambition. And this is the chapter that's all about the sort of scammy girl boss era.
- [65:09]
A
Cheryl Sandberg, the away luggage girls. Like. Yeah, the wing. All of it.
- [65:15]
B
Yes.
- [65:15]
A
It felt very American specific. Yeah.
- [65:18]
B
I mean, talking about your. The gumption.
- [65:21]
A
No, but it was. Yeah, the gumption. It was just all these kind of. The girl boss thing because, you know, pop culture. Sure. She does focus on America. But you know, the Spice Girls are very British and. Right.
- [65:33]
B
And then like the Jennifer girl was British.
- [65:36]
A
Yeah. And I mean she's British herself. Right?
- [65:38]
B
She's British.
- [65:38]
A
Yeah. And so the girl boss thing is like that's a very American. Even the lexicon. The whole thing is very American. And it was a part of the book that I was like, this is fine. But I think it belongs to. It belongs in a book about like venture capital and.
- [65:55]
B
Yes.
- [65:55]
A
And tech and company. Glossier. All of it. It's just like it belongs in the book about like entrepreneurs and how. And some of those entrepreneurs permeated pop culture. But like your regular person did not know what the wing was like. So that's a very like coastal elite thing, you know. Yeah. Maybe the regular person knew what the away back is yours because they started seeing them at Airports. But the. You can't put the girl boss in the same category as like the Spice Girl.
- [66:22]
B
Yes. It's not ubiquitous.
- [66:23]
A
It's not ubiquitous in the same. Yeah, it's. And I think this book was about these girls.
- [66:28]
B
Yes.
- [66:28]
A
That were ubiquitous. Like Lindsay Lohan. Everyone knows whether it's your mom who shopped, your dad who goes to Costco. And everyone knew about Lindsay Lohan. Right. Did everyone know about the wing? I don't know. Did everyone know about Glossier? I don't know. You know what I mean? And then now when you're reading it, when you think about the Kylie Jenner's, the Hailey Bieber. I was just gonna say, you know, Hailey Bieber just selling Road. Like we have a new iteration that's a way more. The influencer, you know, Like.
- [66:52]
B
Yes, it feels, I think there was a way to do that chapter that was more in line with sort of like social media. Girl Boss and like that rise that fits the book better.
- [67:03]
A
We're in Ballerina Farm, Nora Smithland just. It didn't have the same punch. Now when I think the girl boss never really died. A lot of people never don't like the, the word, the, the term. And we're seeing a reinvention and a reimagination in it with like a lot of these trad. Wife adjacent influences who are building empires, you know. So yeah, that, that was a bit, it fell a bit flat.
- [67:30]
B
Okay, we've come to our last chapter. Oh my God, we did it on Top Power.
- [67:35]
A
See, I didn't like the pun of maybe this is the church girl in me. Like the sex position. I already know the titles of sex. I'm like like already the titles like a sex Position which, like a porn genre which I think will put some people off. I'm going to be honest. Like some people don't, you know, being. Yeah, I'm thinking about my girls on the tube or on the subway and it says like girl on girl. Like some people are a bit more shy of those things. Right? Yeah, the Girl on Top. I, I didn't like the pun, but maybe that's my own stuff.
- [68:06]
B
The one thing I thought was super interesting about this chapter was how it opens. She's citing Alice Evans who studies gender divergence. And it's about like why some cultures are more favorable to women than others. And, and what Alice says is one of the single biggest drivers of gender equality is romantic love. If in societies where love is actively disdained in favor of consolidating male networks and power in which marriage is often valuable bargaining chips. Women tend to have much lower status. That, that was pretty interesting. And, and Sophie then takes that into the swing away from rom coms towards the bromance and like, the ways that art in culture is currently embodying that, like, move away from. And I, and I thought that was really interesting. This chapter actually goes on to talk about Hillary Clinton and Sarah Palin.
- [68:55]
A
It's very ambitious. It's very, it's a.
- [68:57]
B
But this is a hard chapter.
- [68:59]
A
Yeah, I, you know, and I feel, you know, when you mentioned earlier about the publishers, some of it felt like that maybe the manuscript got the note of like, can you do this? You know, I, Yeah, yeah, I agree.
- [69:12]
B
I agree. I think I, and I also think, like, those last three chapters of the book feel the most like, oh, I need to add these on in a way that the other stuff felt like, urgent to the topic.
- [69:22]
A
Yeah, yeah. I, I, I just couldn't get over the top chapter title.
- [69:28]
B
You were like, I'm not reading this out of protest.
- [69:29]
A
No, it was just more like it didn't, the pun wasn't deserved because it didn't have the mirror effect of like, if you're going to do the Girl on Top. Girl on Top. Like, talk more about the, this is where the porn, like, the porn relating to the political. Let's make it happen.
- [69:47]
B
Let's go there.
- [69:47]
A
Yeah, Hit it. Like, hit your mark. Because you're reading it as a book about porn, whereas I'm reading it a book about post feminism and its impact on pop culture. But if you're going to have this, like, this is your final chapter. You're going to have this very ballsy title pun unintended. You really need, you really need to, like, you know, it needs to be really tight and it didn't do that for me. But what I do think it does a good job is emphasizing the sadness, maybe and like, the hopelessness of it all, about the fact that, like, girls are actually not on top of, you know. Yeah.
- [70:19]
B
Yeah. Okay. We've come to the end of our rainbow.
- [70:23]
A
We did it.
- [70:23]
B
This has been amazing.
- [70:25]
A
Thank you so much. This is one of my fun interviews I've done. This is great.
- [70:29]
B
I love it. Everybody at home if you haven't yet. We think by now Christiana's brand new podcast, Pop syllabus is out in the world. Go listen.
- [70:39]
A
Yeah.
- [70:39]
B
And also, what's the training?
- [70:41]
A
It should be on the Spotify.
- [70:43]
B
Well, this episode comes out January 28th.
- [70:45]
A
Oh, yeah, yeah, it should be out. It'll be out in the wild.
- [70:47]
B
It should be out this episode. It should be out. Before we weren't sure, but now it should be out no matter what. Go find it. Go follow her. Subscribe to the Sub Stack it is so good. Christiana. Thank you for not only coming on the show, but for exceeding my expectations. You were even more brilliant than I thought you would be.
- [71:04]
A
Flatter me. Flatter me. I had such a fun time. And thank you for not laughing at me too much because I all my notes.
- [71:12]
B
I love them and everyone else. Stay tuned to the rest of this episode to find out what our February book club pick will be and then we'll see you in the Stacks. All right y', all, that does it for us today. Thank you so much for listening and thank you again to Christiana and Bakwe Medina for joining the show. Our book club pick for February is Indigo by Beverly Jenkins. This 1996 romance novel is a classic from a legend, so you need to tune in next week to find out who our guest will be for this conversation. If you love the Stacks and want inside Access, head to patreon.com/the stacks to join the stacks pack and you can check out my newsletter@tracy thomas.substack.com make sure you're subscribed to the Stacks wherever you listen to your podcast, and if you're listening through Apple Podcasts or Spotify, please leave us a rating and a review. For more from the Snacks, follow us on social media at the Stacks Pod, on Instagram threads and TikTok, and you can check out our website atthestacks podcast.com this episode of the Stacks was edited by Christian Duenas with production assistance from Sahara Clement. Additional support was provided by Cherie Marquez, and our theme music is from Tagirages. The Stacks is created and produced by me, Tracy Thomas.