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- [00:00]
A
Hey everybody, it's me, Tracy, and I've got some exciting news for you. This year the stacks is turning 8 years old and we are celebrating with our very first Meetup day on Saturday, April 4. We are inviting you all to meet up in cities across the country and around the world to hang out, play games and build community around our shared love of all things books, reading and of course, snacks. Head to the stacks podcast.com meetup for more information. Over there you're going to find a list of all the cities we have meetups scheduled for. You'll be able RSVP and if you don't see a meetup near you, there's also information on how you can host one again. The website is thestaxpodcast.com meetup and meetup day is April 4th.
- [00:44]
B
The only thing you need to know about naming characters Characters names reflect their parents, not themselves. So the name should contextualize where they come from, not necessarily who they are. Which is why in real life, when you meet someone and they don't match their name, their parents are disappointed. Like their parents wanted a Britney and that's not what they got.
- [01:13]
A
Welcome to the Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host Tracy Thomas and today I am joined by best selling author Tayari Jones to talk about her new book, Kin. This beautiful novel follows Vernice and Annie, two motherless childhood best friends as they grow apart and together over the years. Today Tehari and I talk about the power of female friendship, what it means to be a black woman who returns to the American south, and how writing a simple, beautiful novel can be one of the most challenging things Our book club pick for March is Paradise by Toni Morrison. We will be discussing the book on Wednesday, March 25th with our guest Namwali Serpell. Everything we talk about on each episode of the Stacks is linked in our show Notes if you like this podcast. If you want more bookish content and community, consider joining the Stacks Pack on Patreon and subscribing to my newsletter unstacked over on Substack. Each place offers different unique perks like community conversation and our virtual book club over on the Patreon. And then on the Sub stack you get my writing and my hot takes and a little pop culture nonsense and in both spaces you're going to get a bonus episode every month. So to join go to patreon.com the stacks for the stacks Pack and subscribe to my newsletter at Tracy Thomas substack.com All right now it is time for my conversation with Tayari Jones. All right, everybody. Goodness gracious, we got a good one. Today I am joined by Tiari Jones, your favorite writer's favorite writer. Her new book is called Kin. It came out on February 24th. It's so good. I am beyond thrilled to welcome Tayari Jones to the stacks. Welcome, welcome, welcome.
- [03:01]
B
Thank you. I'm so psyched to be here.
- [03:05]
A
So I was. I just told you I'm going to tell a little intro story, because I started this podcast in 2018, and that's when An American Marriage came out. And I remember when the hubbub around the book was everywhere. Oprah, everyone I knew was talking about, you know, were they Team Roy? Were they Team Solace? Like, it was, like, the whole drama. And I read the book, and I loved it so much, and I thought, gosh, wouldn't it be great if one day I could have Tayari Jones on the podcast? And now, eight years later, the patience paid off. You are here. It is such a dream and such a treat to have you here. So thank you for taking the time to talk to me. It's like a big fan girl moment unlocked.
- [03:51]
B
Well, thank you for that, for that kind story. I really appreciate it. And I can't believe it's been eight years, right. Since An American Marriage, but.
- [04:00]
A
That's right. Didn't it come out in, like, January 2018?
- [04:03]
B
February 8th.
- [04:04]
A
February 8th. Okay, so these books are sort of. They're like. They have the same birthday. It's like people who have all their kids have the same birthday month.
- [04:10]
B
Yes, yes. It's one of those things. Although, you know, this book was originally supposed to come out in June.
- [04:16]
A
Oh, and then March. I feel like my copy says March.
- [04:19]
B
Yeah. Then there was March, and now there's February. But I'm excited, and I'm, you know, the sooner the better. Really.
- [04:25]
A
Yeah. Okay, so let's start for real. Will you just tell people in, like, 30 seconds or so what Kin is about?
- [04:34]
B
Kin is the story of female friendship. Best friends, Bernice and Annie, they have been besties since they were two babies in a cradle. And what they have in common is that neither of them has her mother. Although Annie's mother ran off and left. You know, she's said to be God knows where. And Niecy's mother, you know, has died. Has. Was killed in domestic violence. And so Annie has that hope. As one of the characters says, Annie wakes up every morning with hope that she'll find her mother, and she goes to bed every night Disappointed. So one of the questions is, you know, to what end is hope? Is hope a good thing or not? And their lives go in different directions. Niecy goes to Atlanta to seek an education and a life of respectability at Spelman College. And Annie goes running off to Memphis because she has heard that her mother is there. So even though they have taken very different forks in the road, when it comes to adulthood, it's about all the ways that their bond is maintained, and also the way that real life can really test those bonds and cause them to fray, but also how they can be healed.
- [05:47]
A
Yeah. Let's start with hope, since that's what you sort of launched out into the world. Is hope a good thing?
- [05:57]
B
I'm going to say it depends. You know, Annie hopes she'll find her mother. You know, this story is set in the 50s and 60s, back when you could not cyber stalk anyone, that if you wanted to find someone who was missing, you had to get up, put on some clothes, put on some shoes, and go try to find that person. And this is the thing that animates Annie's life, this hope that one day she'll find Hattie Mae. But, you know, when she's young, it's one thing, but as she gets older, the constant disappointment wears on her, and she realizes. Well, I don't know if she realizes, but I realize that that hope takes up space in her life that could be used for something else, for different kinds of love, different kinds of connection, but she's. It's almost like she's saving a seat beside her at the table for her mother, and no one else can sit there. Yeah.
- [06:47]
A
When you write, how much of what your characters are going through or, like, questioning things like hope or friendship, do you feel like then you turn around and think about in your own life as opposed to the opposite, which is, like, how much of you is in this book? How much do your characters sort of push you to think about these big topics?
- [07:10]
B
Well, I never write about a question to which I already have the answer right, because for me, each novel is a journey. And if I have already know the answer, why am I going to spend five years figuring out how to answer a question I already know the answer to? And I did think a lot about this question of hope and also the question of how. How to maintain relationships, even when you have what other people would call nothing in common. Like, I don't think people would think that Niecy and Annie have anything in common, but they have in common this. And they're not Bonded merely over the hole in their hearts that's in the shape of their mothers. It's kind of like what they have in common is their desire to live their lives in a different way, their desire to make a different life for themselves, and the feeling of being known. I think that when I moved back home to Atlanta, you know, I lived in New York for about 10 years. And one thing that I have that has felt very embracing and enveloping being back here in Atlanta is that I run into people I've known my whole life, right? And they know something about me that the people I've met more recently didn't know, even to how they say my name. People who've known me my whole life call me Tiare. Almost like the letters Tre. Sometimes my friends would write notes to me in class and put tre. And so when I hear someone call me my name and that word way, I know that they know who I am.
- [08:42]
A
Yes. This idea of being. I mean, there's this. There's this. There's a great quote in my book. It's on page 95 that I. That I feel like, to me, is sort of the essence of the book. And Annie says, what you have the same isn't what binds you. Hearts grow strings because of what you know, that's the same. What happened to you, that's the same. And when what you want is the same, and I feel like that's sort of what you're getting at is it's like these two girls to women, maybe on paper, don't seem like they have anything, but they have this shared knowledge, this shared desire. And I think that's like, sort of what makes the book so great. And as I've been reading the book, you know, I've been screaming about on the Internet, I've been, you know, calling all my friends, being like, do you have a copy yet? Because we're recording this before the book's out. Like, you've gotta. You've gotta pre order it. It's so good. And people are like, well, what makes it so good? And the thing that I keep, I mean this as, like, truly the highest form of praise. Because I don't know if this is, like, praise to an author, but I mean it in the nicest way, which is, like, I don't think that you have done anything to, like, reinvent the novel or, like, do anything to, like, change the form or to push, like, that boundary. But what I think you have done here is write an incredibly beautiful piece of writing that tells a story. About two people that I just love, want to be with. Like, you have created these women, you've created this story and you've just done such a beautiful job. And it's such a reminder that, like, to me sometimes the simple best is so much better than the sort of like, how can I put my stamp on it? And I don't, I don't know if you think in that way when you write, but I found this book to be so refreshing because I was like, this is just a book. Like, this is like what a book should be. I don't know. I don't even know how to like articulate it better than that.
- [10:38]
B
I do. I know exactly what you mean. It's a very old fashioned story, right? Yeah. It's two people who've, you know, started in the same place as children, their lives diverge. Someone told me that pastry chefs. And I don't even know if this is true because I don't know any pastry chefs.
- [10:53]
A
Me neither.
- [10:54]
B
That, you know the yellow cake with the chocolate icing?
- [10:57]
A
Yes.
- [10:58]
B
That is just a basic cake, but that you can judge a pastry chef by how well they can make that basic cake. Is that yellow cake moist? Is that chocolate icing rich and delicious? It's very simple, but it's where you can really show how well you can bake. And I feel like telling an old fashioned story without a lot of bells and whistles and gimmicks and outrageous twist of plot. You just have to get in there and just tell that story in a solid old fashioned way and let the characters, let the personalities of the characters do the work, their relationships do the lifting. And I wanted, that is something that was important to me as I wrote it to just kind of do the. It's like the basic. It's like the little black dress of books.
- [11:46]
A
Yes, yes. It's like you got to find the one that is like perfect for you. This is exactly, this is exactly what I was getting at is like this is a book, this is a novel. This is like when you think of a novel that's kin, there's no, you know, deuce end. No like talking goats. It's just these two women, they love each other. They got paths, you know, diverging in the forest. One goes this way, one goes the other way. And you just keep us there in this sort of like luxurious way. Like I just felt so excited to go back to them. I wanted to be with the book. And I am not really a novel person in general. I prefer non fiction. So for me to Be sort of having these, like, feelings. Like, I just. I think it's really special. I think this book is, like, really, really special. And I'm already thinking, like, every book club, Like, I'm going to tell my mom's book club. Like, I just feel like this is a book that people, especially women, will read and feel themselves in some way. There's something for everyone here without feeling like this is a book for everyone, which I also sort of hate. So I don't know, but I guess the is, how do you know that you've sort of cut to the bone of the thing? Like, how do you sort of either rein yourself in or hype yourself up to get at the, like, perfectly moist yellow cake?
- [13:11]
B
Well, this book is. Was. The process was so different than anything else, anything else I've ever done in that this is not the book I set out to write.
- [13:20]
A
Oh, my gosh, talk about it.
- [13:21]
B
It is not the book I was contracted to write. I had signed a contract to write a contemporary novel set here in Atlanta about gentrification because I live in a fascinating neighborhood. And I said, this neighborhood is dying to be in a book. But it felt, when I started trying to write it, it didn't have the magical thing, like, it felt almost like, you know, like an arranged marriage in a way, in that it made perfect sense that I would write this gentrification novel. I live here. I'm from here. I've come back home. Everything kind of lined up except the feeling. And so I just took out a clean piece of paper and took a pencil. Not even a pen, A pencil that I sharpened with this pencil sharpener.
- [14:06]
A
It's an old school pencil sharpener.
- [14:08]
B
Yes, that you crank like this. Not even the electric pencil sharpener. And I just started writing whatever came to mind. And that's when I met these two characters. And I thought, well, certainly, certainly these are not my characters because I am not an historical novelist. I am a dedicated contemporary novelist. So this must be backstory. And I said, well, I don't want to interrupt the flow. I'm just going to follow these characters till they lead me to my real story. And then when I got about 150 pages in, I said, oh, my goodness, this is not backstory. This is the story. And then once I was in this strange land of the 1950s and 60s, where I had not intended to travel. I mean, I felt like I had fallen, you know, through a portal in my closet, in the wardrobe or something. I had to really rely on my storytelling instinct more than the part of me that has control and direction.
- [15:11]
A
Do you feel like that is because you were in a different time, or do you feel like there's something else about this novel that made you depart from your normal practice?
- [15:23]
B
Well, I think the different time for sure, because I was very adamant about why I do not write historical.
- [15:29]
A
Why do you not write historical until now?
- [15:32]
B
Because I think that black writers and probably other writers of color, and you're made to believe that your project is filling in the blanks, that you are writing the story your mother couldn't tell, you're writing the story your grandmother couldn't tell. So I always felt that my gift to future generations is that I was going to tell my story. So that that is one less thing that that other person has to do that she can. That the people of the future can write from their day forward, that they do not have to fill in the blanks for me. I got this. Don't worry about it.
- [16:06]
A
Love that.
- [16:07]
B
And so then when I turn up and I'm writing people in the 50s and they're wearing these girdles and such, I was like, what is happening? But I do think that part of the project of this book is that I'm writing the stories like my mother never told me. My mother is not a teller of stories.
- [16:26]
A
So where did you get it?
- [16:28]
B
You know, I almost think that perhaps I did get it because I was not reared around storytellers. My mother is an economist. My father is a political scientist. These people read books that have graphs in them. They don't read for pleasure.
- [16:41]
A
Do they read your books now?
- [16:43]
B
They read my books, and I guess it's for pleasure, but I think it's just because they love you. They love me? Yes. And it's what one does when you love your children, you read their books. But I don't. I almost think I was able to develop as a writer because I never saw it as a way to get approval from my parents.
- [17:00]
A
Mm.
- [17:01]
B
That it was something that was mine and mine alone, because nobody was into this but me. And I was into it enough for everyone.
- [17:08]
A
And do you remember the first time you realized, like, this could be something
- [17:16]
B
that you did for my life?
- [17:19]
A
Yes. Or even, like, that it could be something that I talk to a lot of people and they talk like, I love to write, but it didn't really occur to me that that meant anything bigger than just, like, something I like to do.
- [17:32]
B
Yes. Because when I was growing up in the, you know, 70s and 80s, if you were a girl and you like to read and you like to write. People didn't think it meant you were an intellectual. They thought it meant you were a nice girl. Yeah. Because, you know, I love this. I've said this 800 times. It's going to be 801. To the best of my knowledge, no one has ever gotten pregnant in the library. And that sounds like a challenge, but that. I know I said that once, and this woman raised her hand. She was, like, actually in the central branch. So, I mean, I'm sure. But generally, yeah, that was the. And that was really the bar for girls. You may remember. I think it was Chris Rock who said that as a parent, your one job is to keep your daughter off the pole.
- [18:15]
A
Yes.
- [18:15]
B
And. And I think that means that. That means if your child is sexually appropriate. Yeah. There's nothing else to think about.
- [18:22]
A
Yeah.
- [18:22]
B
And when I was a teenager, I went to. I went to college early. I was 16 years old, and I enrolled in Spelman College here in Atlanta, Historically Black College for Women. And it was there that I met a writer. And she was my teacher. And she said to me, what are you thinking about these days? And I got ready to tell her. I feel emotional whenever I tell this story. I got ready to tell her, and she says, no, don't tell me. Write it down. And with that, she became my first audience. And I started to think of my writing as something that was meaningful to someone besides myself.
- [19:02]
A
I love that so much. One of the things that I love talking to writers about, especially writers of fiction who I think are talented like you, is audience. And you said, you know, this teacher of yours was your first audience. How do you think about audience now? How much are they on your mind as you're writing? When do they come into the process for you? And do you have an intended audience that you're writing toward?
- [19:30]
B
Well, my teacher, her name is Pearl Clegg. And I always keep her in mind. I feel like she's my moral north star when it comes to writing, because she would always say to me, your only job is to tell the people the truth. So I always keep that in mind. But when I think about audience, I also imagine there's an A, like an A side, and a B side like a record. And the A side. I imagine that the book is being read by people who have experienced what I am writing. I want the book to pass muster with them. And the B side are people who don't know about this world that I am writing that will probably, you know, gain some insight from the book. But you can never confuse The A side and the B side. For example, in An American Marriage, I wanted people who had experience having a loved one incarcerated to see their experience in this work. But I wanted them to walk. I did not want. I never want someone who was experiencing the hardships about which I'm writing to walk away feeling worse about their situation.
- [20:38]
A
Right.
- [20:39]
B
And I feel that when you concentrate too much on the B side, the people who don't know about this world, there's a temptation to make it worse so that these. So these new people will see that this is a serious matter. And if you give the. If you give the people too much hope at the end, you may worry that the people who don't know will think this problem isn't a problem.
- [20:58]
A
Right.
- [20:58]
B
And I have to remember that the people on the A side. If I cannot imagine a hopeful ending, then how can I expect someone to live a hopeful ending? It is easier to imagine it. So, like in An American Marriage, I had to figure out a way out for these characters that they could. I could feel like they were starting on the next chapter of their lives. I didn't solve all their problems, but I had to give them away. A way forward. And even with Ken, I had to give. You know, I had to give Niecy a way forward. Despite everything that happened, she had to have a possibility. There had to be some light for her.
- [21:41]
A
Yeah. If you. How do you. How do you make sure that you are sort of taking care of the A side when it's something that you're creating? Maybe it's something you've never experienced. How do you know that you got the balance right? How do you check yourself?
- [21:59]
B
You do the best you can. I mean, you may. You may not do it right, but you do the best you can. I do have readers, like, for Ken. I had some older Spelman alumni who were, like, in their 70s and 80s read the book so they could. To see how things were back then. And that was helpful because there were little details I didn't get right. Like, I didn't realize the curfew was 6:00'. Clock. Oh, my goodness.
- [22:24]
A
So early.
- [22:26]
B
That's so early. That's after dinner, before dinner, you know, little things like that. But then there were other times when I just had to, you know, wade in the water and hope that, you know, like the. Like the old song says, you know, God will trouble the water. Because, you know, when I'm writing this plot about these two young women in love, you know, in the late 1950s, as Spelman, I didn't have anyone to tell me what was going on behind those closed doors
- [22:53]
A
when you got the idea for this book? As you're writing with your pencil, your sharp pencil, sharpened pencil, at what point do you realize, like, this is a book about friendship? Like, at what point does it become clear to you what the thing you've been doing maybe is?
- [23:15]
B
I knew it fairly early because in all the early parts, well, the way I wrote the book I had originally written. 120 pages, all Niecy. 120 pages, all Annie. And then I did some ill advised stuff there at the end. I won't even. I had the ending all wrong, but I knew that it was about their friendship. As a matter of fact, I was saying, oh, this book is like Beaches, meet Sula.
- [23:42]
A
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
- [23:44]
B
But I do think that that female friendship novel, it is like the, you know, the chocolate cake of novels. Like, it's a kind of a classic kind of setup. But I think I knew it when I finished my 120 pages of all Niecy that it was about her friendship with Annie.
- [24:02]
A
Yeah. I think the female friendship novel especially feels like yellow cake for black women. Like, I feel like black women writers take such care to sort of tell these stories of friendship in a way that I think maybe other writers don't value it. Like, I like, I think of Sula as sort of being this canonical text among black women. Even though perhaps in some ways, like the industry or the critics, like Will say Beloved or Song of Solomon. And obviously those books are amazing. Toni Morrison is great. But I do think there's something about Sula about, like, the friendship novel between black women that is sacred to us. Did you feel any of that?
- [24:48]
B
Well, and the cautionary tale that is Sula.
- [24:50]
A
Yeah. Oh, yeah.
- [24:51]
B
Because, you know, at the end of Sula, she says, all this time, I thought I was missing Jude. I know she chose her husband over her friend, even though her friend tried her now.
- [25:00]
A
Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's not like the nudity on all fours was necessarily the best friendship. I don't know. I can't imagine me and Annie behaving in that way. But who knows? Maybe there's an alternate universe for them.
- [25:15]
B
Luckily, they have very different tastes. But I think, though, that Sula really challenged us to say, how much do you value your friend? How much? How much? What is the limit? What is the limit? And I think Morrison says, if there's a limit, you're doing it wrong.
- [25:33]
A
Yeah. How about motherhood? I read this very much as A book about motherhood, even though the mothers are not there per se. There are mother figures, but the actual, you know, mothers, like you said at the beginning, they are not really in the book. Was that something that you were interested in exploring, like the ways that we mother or what motherhood could look like or. What was interesting about that piece for you?
- [25:58]
B
What was interesting to me about the motherhood pieces, they're both reared by women who did not intend to rear them. And it made me think about all these women who have very imperfectly reared children that they did not want to rear in the first place and what that means, because when people cannot control their. We often think about reproductive justice, you know, contraception, abortion, all of these things as only affecting the person that would be carrying a child or not. But think about this. In the 40s and 50s and 60s, babies were like falling out of the sky almost, and someone had to take them in. So it would not be uncommon for a relative to more or less leave a baby on your doorstep.
- [26:48]
A
Right.
- [26:48]
B
And so there were all these women who were kind of forced into motherhood and it had nothing to do with their own personal choices. And that was interesting to me about this kind of. I don't want to say like half assed mothering, but it kind of was right. But it also was a great gift for someone who didn't intend to raise a child to raise it at all.
- [27:11]
A
Yeah, a really interesting. Because Niecy and Annie spend so much time thinking about their mothers to have a book filled with all of these maternal figures in their lives who do not have children. Mostly, I believe, by choice, it doesn't really come up. They just don't have kids, which I also sort of love. It's like I don't need 200 pages on why you do or don't have kids. But I, I do think that that's a really interesting way to think about parenting and sort of what we owe each other and our responsibilities to care for one another despite, you know, capital C circumstances.
- [27:53]
B
Well, and the mother in law, Mrs. McHenry, she is mothering the hell out of that boy.
- [27:58]
A
She's mothering everybody who will get close to her. She's like, oh, do you need, do you need a bra? I got one.
- [28:05]
B
Yeah. Like she, she's there like she wants a daughter.
- [28:07]
A
Yes.
- [28:08]
B
She has three sons. She wants a daughter.
- [28:10]
A
She wants a daughter.
- [28:11]
B
And she went and found one. All these, all these people, they just decide what kind of who they want in their life and they just go make it happen.
- [28:19]
A
They Do. It's kind of great and also kind of scary.
- [28:24]
B
Yes. And then, like, this idea people have of everyone, like, you know, Annie is so romantic about the idea of a mother. And because all these people in this book may not have children, but everyone in the book almost has a mother.
- [28:40]
A
That's right.
- [28:40]
B
And so, Annie, they have all these fantasies of mothers, and everyone says you only feel that way because you don't have a mother. Trust me, if you had a mother, you would be a little more circumspect.
- [28:51]
A
That's so true. Okay, we're gonna take a quick break and we'll be right back. Consistent, mellow, and super delicious, Lumi Gummies are specifically designed to make you feel good, not stoned. Whether you're looking for an end of the day de stressor, a midday mood boost, or help getting the best sleep ever, Lumi Gummies has a strain that's right for you. Lumi Gummies are great. They are a game changer when you're winding down after a long day if you want to melt into your bed and dive into a good book. But it starts to feel a little bit impossible because there is so much going on in your brain in the world. Lumi Gummies can help bring your stress level down and allow you to relax, to enjoy your reading time and a good night's sleep. You just pop in your little 5 milligram gummy, get all cozy, get out the book, allow the relaxation to wash over you, and about an hour later, it's lights out. Like I said, you're gonna get some amazing sleep, people. Lumi Gummies are available nationwide. Go to lumigummies.com that's L U M I gummies.com and use the code the stacks for 30 off your order. Again, that's lumigummies.com code the stacks. Lumigummies.com code the stacks. In this season of my life, I am only concerned about achieving peak comfort. And I have now found a brand that know can help me accomplish this. The brand is Cozy Earth. Cozy Earth elevates the everyday with high quality, intentionally crafted pajamas, blankets, bedding. They take comfort to the next level. If you have listened to this podcast, if you follow me on social media, you know that I am obsessed with my bamboo pajama set. And today I'm here to tell you about another item I have gotten from Cozy Earth that is ridiculously exceptional. I feel sort of embarrassed telling you this, but, like, their socks are amazing. Okay? They are soft. They are cushiony, but not too thick. They are breathable but also supportive in all the places that you need. Plus, you can also try Cozy Earth's products risk free. The brand offers 100 night sleep trial that gives you up to 100 nights to try their bedding before you decide if you're going to keep or return or exchange. And because comfort is meant to endure, they offer a 10 year warranty that protects your purchase against damage for an entire decade. We call that zero risk and all the reward. If you're ready to try out Cozy Earth, use my code the stacks for up to 20% off. And if you get a post purchase survey, be sure to mention you heard about Cozy Earth right here. Experience the craft behind the comfort and make every day feel intentional. Starting a business can be absolutely terrifying. You sit down with an idea, you take a leap of faith on something you're not even sure will work out. Trust me when I say that when I launched this podcast, I was immediately faced with a ton of what ifs. First and foremost, what if no one listens? Second, what if nobody wants to be a guest? Then what if we fail? Well, as you can see, I was able to push past those fears and create the very podcast that you're listening to right this second. But that wasn't without a ton of hard work. And there's no better partner to help you along the way than Shopify. There's a reason why Shopify is the e commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world. It makes starting your own business feel way less terrifying. With hundreds of ready to use templates to build your brand identity, AI tools to help you write, copy and enhance images, and built in marketing tools to create bespoke email and social media campaigns and reach even more customers. Plus, you can manage all your tasks in one place, accelerating your efficiency, making your life easier and helping your business operations run more smoothly. It is time to turn those what ifs into with Shopify today. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com/the stacks. Go to shopify.com/the stacks. That's shopify.com/the stacks. Okay, we are back. I want to talk about balance. Balance, balance, balance. I think this book is really well balanced. There is tender, there is funny, there is sort of longing or aching. There is sex. We love sex. There's some surprises. How do you strike the balance? I mean I think I've read Leaving Atlanta, I've read An American Marriage and now I've read this and I do think you are one of our great balanced writers Like, I always feel like the seasoning is just right. I never read your books and think, oh, she went too long on this or too far, or it was just stuck here. It always feels so evenly balanced how
- [34:01]
B
I think life is kind of balanced. I feel like if you try to write a story that mimics the way that life is, like, if a story doesn't have anything funny in it, you haven't told the truth.
- [34:10]
A
Sure, sure.
- [34:11]
B
And if a story isn't sad in some way, you haven't told the truth. So I just keep in mind what Pearl told me. You tell the people the truth.
- [34:19]
A
Yeah.
- [34:19]
B
And I try to just stay with that. I think this book, though, is kind of funny.
- [34:22]
A
This book is funny.
- [34:24]
B
It's kind of funny, right? I feel that, you know, when I read reviews and stuff, no one ever says this book is funny. And I think I thought it was funny in places.
- [34:34]
A
There's some really funny scenes. I mean, Lulibel, iconic character. I love her. I mean, she is. In the movie of Kin, she is best supporting actress. Right. Like, she's the role you want if you're the actor. That's the. Lula Bell is the part. Yeah. Everyone wants to be the lead, but I'm telling you, Lula Bell, that's the one. But I do. I do think she's so funny, and I think. I think Annie's really funny.
- [34:59]
B
I think Annie's funny. I think her man Bobo is funny with his vocabulary.
- [35:03]
A
Bobo's funny. There's a lot of humor in this book.
- [35:06]
B
Baby Doll is funny.
- [35:07]
A
Baby Doll is funny. I do feel like Annie's side of the story is. Definitely has more humor for me. Annie's world feels, I think, on purpose, more colorful, more vivacious. The characters are just. I feel like on Niecy's side, she's trying so hard to be this prim, proper thing in this world or the world is trying to make her that maybe. And so I think that we don't get as much.
- [35:30]
B
Oh, but she's got Ms. Ola May and Ms. Jemison. It's balanced.
- [35:34]
A
It's balanced. This is what I'm saying. You're right.
- [35:37]
B
I do feel in some ways, this is my most Southern novel because all the characters are real. They're the kind of people that you would say, ooh, he's a character.
- [35:46]
A
That's right. That's right. Oh, I have to know. How do you name your characters? I mean, we do have a Shadrach, and I was wondering if that was a nod to Sula.
- [35:54]
B
Of course. Always. I feel like all my books, I make a wink at Morrison in some way. Even the two girls where one's mother is dead and the other one dances too much and stays out all night. That's like the Morrison story. But this is how I name the characters. Here's the important thing, the only thing you need to know about naming characters. Characters names reflect their parents, not themselves. So the name should contextualize where they come from, not necessarily who they are. Which is why in real life, when you meet someone and they don't match their name, their parents are disappointed. Like, their parents wanted a Britney, and that's not what they got.
- [36:35]
A
Oh, my God, that's so good.
- [36:39]
B
So I think about that. I think about that tension. Although Vernice with a voice, her name used to be Bernice with a B. But there were too many people in the book whose names start with B. It was getting confusing, so I had to change it. So I had to switch that. But she was still Nisi, which shows the time. She was raised in Southern. So that's what I did for all of them. I tried to think, like, what? Like, Annie is named Annie because her grandmother's too many children. She just gave her a name. She's like, this is the name du jour, and kept it moving. And Franklin, that's his mother's maiden name.
- [37:16]
A
That's so good. I've known Bobo.
- [37:19]
B
And with Bobo, that's his nickname, of course. And she says, your name isn't. Your real name isn't Bobo. He says, what, you think my mother is a vulgarian? No, my name is Carver, after the scientist.
- [37:31]
A
That's right. I love Bobo.
- [37:34]
B
I love Bobo, too.
- [37:37]
A
What about the COVID and the title? How much do you. How much, say, do you get in the COVID now that you are Tayari Jones? The.
- [37:45]
B
You know, I want to. I tell people all the time, everyone gets say in the COVID Everyone. There's. You don't have to be somebody to have say in the COVID They want you to like the COVID They want you to like your book. We went through six covers, and I kind of was having a meltdown. Is meltdown is too strong. It wasn't a crash out, but it was definitely emotion. I normally give them a lot of wiggle room on the COVID because I feel they know something about covers that I don't. I have seen a lot of writers. Well, not a lot, but a number of writers ruin their book by insisting on the COVID they wanted. But you don't know anything about marketing. You don't Know that cover. But the covers I got, I was like, this isn't the right cover. I don't like it. And as a matter of fact, I had to go to New York because I needed them to see that I'm not an unreasonable person. I'm a nice person. I just couldn't live with those covers. Yeah, I could. I could not. I could not, I could not. And I've never gone to the mat over the COVID before, but they just didn't. The covers they had didn't speak to me. And I was in New York in my hotel room, getting ready to see them the next day, practicing seeming sane. And they. I got a text with this covered. I was like, look at her. She's so pretty. And I was so happy. And so when I got to see them, I told them I love it. They were happy that I was happy. And that's what I think. People forget about your publisher. They want you to be happy because you're going to be representing this book. They want you to be happy.
- [39:15]
A
I love this cover. I love the Black Kin. I just. It's like the juxtaposition of the two things. It's so.
- [39:24]
B
The flowers and the honeysuckle and the. And the letters are so big down there. I love it. I love this cover. I mean, I. I'm sure that somewhere in this world there is a dress that mimics that pattern, and I want to wear it.
- [39:38]
A
Oh, we gotta find that for you.
- [39:40]
B
It must exist.
- [39:41]
A
It must exist.
- [39:42]
B
And I'm thrilled. Like, we've done all these adorable things. Like, we have friendship bracelets to go with the books. Is there France? Oh, my God, is that not cute? I feel like my publisher has really gone all out and so supporting me. And it's been a great experience. I love the trinkets. And they also. I sent out postcards. I'm big about the mail, but I send postcards because when I was a debut writer, postcards were the only thing I had to promote my book. And I even paid to have the postcards made. And I would be going to coffee shops, handing them out. And then I went to the Bread Loaf Writers Conference, where all the, you know, cool, hot debuts, where I was the kid there off the waiting list, and all the other kids were talking about what they had worn to their luncheon to meet the media. I was like, what? Other people are having luncheons to meet the media? I felt so cheated, and I felt embarrassed. Like, here I am with my little postcards. And I called Pearl on the payphone And I said, they've been having luncheons to meet the media. I feel like I'm so behind. I'll never catch up. And Pearl said, who are you behind? What are you catching? You didn't write that book for a luncheon. You wrote that book so that people would remember the Atlanta child murders. So you did what you're supposed to do, so you're not behind anything. And that was such an important moment for me to remember my purpose. And I wanted to mail postcards for this book, even though I'm at a much different place in my life and career. But I wanted to mail out my postcards just as a nod to that person I was when I wrote my first book and how I remembered. The point was so that the people would remember.
- [41:33]
A
I mean, this is a question that I ask people who have had, you know, I would say tremendous, but I guess it's all relative success in their career as a writer. What is it like for you to kind of come back on the scene with a new book after sort of the success of An American Marriage? Is that something that, like, messes with you? Is that something that you are able to, like, use? I'm always, you know, I've had people who've won Pulitzer Prizes and they have a new book out, and I'm like, what's it like stepping back into the arena after having this sort of amazing success?
- [42:12]
B
You know, I had to really. I think that may have been part of why I couldn't write the book that I had been contracted to write. I think. I think I had something of a writer's block, and part of it was. Well, there was. It was a multifaceted writer's block. One. It was 2020.
- [42:29]
A
Yeah.
- [42:30]
B
And I was really asking myself, to what purpose writing? Like, you know, there's a pandemic. A million people have died. The young people are in the street with the George Floyd protests, and I'm in my office doing what, Right? And so I think I also had that feeling of, like, how is this contributing? And that was one thing that was holding me back. But also having had a successful book, then you're going to write another book, and you. You're trying for another successful book. But I felt that I know so many writers who are so talented, and they've never had one successful book. And then I thought, well, then who am I to ask for another successful book? It seemed like kind of when I was a kid, what my mama would call grabby, to say, I'm going to try and I felt like I've had so much more than my share. Who am I to keep to want more of this kind of space? But then I realized, too, that when I was saying I've had more than my share, then was I suggesting that I didn't deserve what I had if it's more than my share? And I realized I was also having a kind of a. Kind of a crisis of what I ended up calling worthiness. So for the word, for every year in the new year, I make a word of the year, okay? And so when I had this revelation, I made my word of the year worthy. And I had a necklace. Apparently, a lot of people deal with this because there are T shirts out there that say worthy necklaces that say worthy keychains, cups, everything, merch. But here's what's interesting. In the year that I was working on feelings of worthiness, girl, I didn't write a thing. Because when I was feeling worthy, I was just laying on my couch feeling the love. That's right. I was feeling the self love. I felt like, who needs a book? I'm worthy. I don't need another success. I didn't need the first success. I'm worthy. Just as I was, you know, so beautifully made. So that was the. The lazy year of worthiness. I just, you know, I ate Cracker Jack on the couch. I watched Netflix. I was just chilling worthily. But then I started to write. You know, when I started to do the scribbling, I made my word of the year discipline. I just. I did that. And the writing did come back. But also I had to accept that the writing. When I wrote An American Marriage, I was really trying to change, to add to the conversation about wrongful imprisonment and the way that mass incarceration affects people's lives, real people, their lives, their relationships. But I had to accept that writing is a kind of a modest contribution to what's going on in the world and do it anyway and do it just as passionately, even understanding that even with the new humility, I had to write as though I thought a book could change the world. But I had to also do it with the humility, knowing that it won't. And I had to get that balance. And that was more important to me than saying, can I have another successful book? I am stunned. I was worried. Think about it. I'm writing a book that isn't the book that people ask for. I didn't even tell them. I just turned it in. Like, here it is.
- [45:38]
A
What did they say?
- [45:41]
B
I waited. They Said the editor said she told her assistant, could you pull that contract? Because I don't think this is what we bought. But they liked it, and we're all good. We're all good. We're all together. Because I think I wrote it with complete sincerity, and I wrote it not thinking about the contract because basically the book is a violation of the contract. I think the contract also was trapping me in the space of commerce. And then when I wrote something that wasn't contracted, it got back to the place of art. Yeah.
- [46:12]
A
Okay, quick, quick. And then I want to go back to that last point. What is your word of the year this year?
- [46:19]
B
Oh, it's really good. So last year was onward.
- [46:21]
A
Okay.
- [46:22]
B
And this year is. Well, it's a little bit of a cheat because it's a homin. It's a homogram. Homograph. So it's present. Present and present. So present in that I want to really enjoy this feeling and moment that I'm in, you know, of having a new book out and having a big launch party at a big theater in my hometown. I want to feel that I want to be present. I don't want to be worried about the future or comparing it to the past. I need present because I'm going to be on a lot of stages. And although, you know, as a writer, my platform isn't as big as, say, someone who's an actress. I'm still going to be speaking to people, and my voice. I'm going to lend my voice to the conversations of what's happening in the world. So I need to present. But also I want to work on my gratitude. You know, my gratitude practice. So I have to realize that it's also a present. So that's my word.
- [47:17]
A
That's so good. I also do the word of the year thing.
- [47:20]
B
Oh, my word.
- [47:21]
A
My word this year is restoration. I had a pretty rough 2025, and in 2023, I made my word abundance, but I was not specific enough. And I got a lot of really hard stuff. I got good stuff in 2023, but it was all. It was like, too much. And so I tried to get more and more specific with my word. So this year's restoration, I need a.
- [47:44]
B
That's a good word.
- [47:45]
A
Yeah, it's a good word. So. So far, so good. But I do want to go back to this. This balance between commerce and art, because I do think. I guess at the heart of that question about success is the question of commerce. Right. Like, to be. To be, you know, not proud of your work. I Don't know that that's the word, but to feel content with what you've created in the face of knowing that there is an audience and that audience comes with money, and that that money is how you live your life. And all of that, that balance of, like, how do I make a thing that I love and I'm proud of and fulfills me as a writer? And also knowing that eventually I do have to pass it off to someone to tell me if I broke the contract, or like to tell me that it is going to get friendship bracelets or whatever. Like, is that part hard for you at all? Or are you able to be like, I did my thing. This is what I made, and the art is the art, and you guys can fight about the rest.
- [48:46]
B
Well, one thing, I have a day job. I teach at Emory University. I recommend everybody have a day job. Because if you have a day job, even if you break the contract and they want their advance back, you still have a job, you will still eat. And that's important to me to know that I will still eat. So I can make my decisions somewhat, at least to some level, removed from the idea of the money. Because also, I mean, you're a writer. Like, one thing I did that helped me understand how little writers make money. I was in this organization here in Atlanta that's all. Like, the business leaders and people in corporate America, they make. They. Those people, they make money.
- [49:30]
A
Yeah.
- [49:31]
B
Like, doing well for a writer is nothing compared to doing well for a banker.
- [49:36]
A
Yeah.
- [49:36]
B
So that was also very helpful. So you don't get. It was humbling in a good way. But, like, I would go to their houses and their homes have, like, circular driveways. You know, their house is so big, and they. If they have more than eight people over, they have to have a vet, have a valet, of course, to take the cars, you have to take people over. Like, y' all can park behind the house and go around the corner.
- [49:57]
A
There's street parking, is what we say here in Los Angeles.
- [50:00]
B
Exactly. So that's. So I'm gonna say that is one. That is one thing, is that I really got humbled by other people's money. So you cannot be motivated by money that you realize in the same scheme of things, it's not money. But also, because I was writing a book. That wasn't the contract. I wrote a book. I wrote this book the way I wrote my first book, which was like, I have this idea. I hope they like it. Like, I, I. It wasn't. It wasn't determined that it would be accepted.
- [50:29]
A
Yeah.
- [50:30]
B
And so it took me back to that. That little place of a hopeful writer, I think. You know, I always say I want to get back to when I wrote my first book. I didn't even know what an agent did.
- [50:39]
A
Yeah.
- [50:40]
B
I had never heard of an agent. And so I sometimes say I want to be that person. But every time I've said that every book I've written, something catastrophic has happened that made it seem like this book may not come out. And I had to start over. Someone said to me, what makes you successful as a writer is how well you're able to rebuild after catastrophe. Every book, every time. I've had so many writerly catastrophes where I had to start over.
- [51:09]
A
What is a writerly catastrophe?
- [51:11]
B
Okay. One, When I was working on my third book, Silver Sparrow, my publishing company got sold. They took me out of print and they refused to sign me for another contract. They said they didn't want to throw good money after bad. And then this is when the app bookscan was just invented. And so everyone, you know, whenever there's new technology, people over rely on the tech. Yeah. So they put your name in, see your numbers, and they will return the book unread. And it was suggested that I get a pseudonym or pretend to be a debut. And so I had to finish the book because I teach and I tell my students, you write the story, your heart calls you to write. So I could not let some app make me stop writing, but I wrote the book completely sure it would never be published. I was out of print. I went to a book event and they were like, your. Your books are out of print. And I was like, I felt so bad, I was so sad. And I. And I wrote from that place of being, like, I have been guaranteed that this will never be published, but I'm writing it anyway. That was a writerly catastrophe.
- [52:15]
A
That is a catastrophe. So something I talk to everyone about here. One is, what's a word you could never spell correctly on the first try?
- [52:23]
B
Neighbor.
- [52:24]
A
Oh, good one. Good.
- [52:26]
B
Yeah. Well, now that I'm thinking about it, I know it's ei, but I sit there, I look at it like that looks funky. It's a weird looking word.
- [52:34]
A
Yeah. And then the other thing I always like to ask about is you. You mentioned the pencil for this book, but what else? What. What set the scene? When you sit down to write, where are you? Are there snacks and beverages? Do you listen to music? Do you have a ritual of lighting a candle or going into a special saying a prayer I don't know.
- [52:52]
B
I'm gonna warn people against these rituals, okay? That's how you get writer's block. You end up like Dumbo. You think it's the feather. It's not the feather. You gotta be like, I like a feather. I'm Dumbo, and I prefer to fly with the feather. If you have a feather, by all means, I will fly with it. But I don't require a feather. Because whenever you make up all these things, you make yourself superstitious. And what happens when one of your lucky socks gets locked? Gets lost in the dryer?
- [53:16]
A
So.
- [53:17]
B
So I have things I prefer. I do drink coffee. I drink coffee. So isn't this pretty? So pretty.
- [53:22]
A
Ooh, that is pretty.
- [53:23]
B
So pretty. I drink coffee. I do do espresso in this cup. So, like, triple espresso is what I do. And I. I sit in my little writing room, which I, you know, I tidy the area of the desk I'm going to write on. I feel like if you get the tidiness started before you go to bed, when you wake up, it's already in motion and increases the chances, you know? I choose one of the typewriters. There's one, like, right there. There's one over there. And that's what I do. I do. I listen to music. It has to be instrumental. If I listen to music with lyrics, I start thinking about the lyrics.
- [53:56]
A
Any snacks?
- [53:58]
B
I'm like, what is a bad mama jama? No. No snacks. No snacks. Just coffee. No snacks. Okay. Because how can you eat the snacks and write?
- [54:06]
A
Listen, I. You are probably my. I don't know. This is episode 400 and something. A lot of people have snacks. Let me tell you.
- [54:16]
B
What kind of snacks are they eating?
- [54:19]
A
Nuts, Little candies, Gummy bears. Some people don't have snacks.
- [54:23]
B
Gummy bears are like gummy bears. Like gummy bears or gummy bears.
- [54:26]
A
Not. Not gummy bears that are legal in California and illegal in other places.
- [54:30]
B
Okay.
- [54:30]
A
Just regular gummy bears. So some people have talked about substances.
- [54:33]
B
Yeah. I don't mess with substances when I write. I need to be very clear.
- [54:36]
A
Yeah. I think what I've found is interesting is that the people who talk most about, like, drinking a glass of wine or having a drink are usually people who write memoirs, novelists.
- [54:47]
B
Oh. They need to get those inhibitions to
- [54:49]
A
let loose a little bit. It's very.
- [54:51]
B
I have a timer. I have a timer.
- [54:53]
A
Do you do, like, the Pomodoro? Like 25 on or something cute. It's a little bee.
- [54:59]
B
Yes. I use a timer. When I'm having. I find when I'm having a hard time writing, I need a timer. I like the pretty cup. I like the clean desk.
- [55:08]
A
Yeah.
- [55:08]
B
It's like being in love. When you're in love, it doesn't matter where you go. Y' all can go to McDonald's. It doesn't matter. You go to McDonald's, you're like, these are the best fries. Just like you, baby. But when the love isn't going well, you're like, you gotta take me somewhere good. We need a date night, and I need to feel special. Where are my flowers? And that's how it is for the writing. For me, when it's going well, I could write on a napkin in a public place. But when it's not going well, I need to be in my quiet room doing everything I can to kind of bring the muse around. But once the writing is going well, I can print out that draft and take it anywhere.
- [55:42]
A
Yeah. I have to say, there are a few people whose names come up a lot as mentors, inspirations, people that have sort of been kind to writers, and yours is one of those names. I mentioned to a few friends of the show that I was going to be talking to you, and every single one was like, I met Teari when I was in college, and she said this to me. I've known her since that. She's the one we look to. She is. So many people just love you, admire you, and I always think that that is so special. So I wanted to tell you they're talking about you behind your back, but it's really nice.
- [56:28]
B
Oh, I appreciate that. But, you know, so many people were so nice to. To me when I was just a little Smurf, and so I feel like that was what was modeled for me.
- [56:39]
A
Yeah.
- [56:39]
B
And I think we have, like, generations. So, like, I think of Pearl CL as my literary mother. And so these people, then Pearl is their grandmother.
- [56:46]
A
Yeah. H. I love that so much. Okay, two more questions and we're out of here. One is for people who read and love Kin. What are some other books you might recommend to them that are in conversation with what you've got created?
- [56:59]
B
Well, of course, you know, we're going to be SULA all day. All day. But also Best of Friends by Camila Shamsi.
- [57:06]
A
Oh, yes, she did. She came on the podcast for that book. Ah, yeah.
- [57:10]
B
Yes. I just. I. Because I was reading that as I was working on that, so I feel like those two are a couple of, you know, real female friendship books. And. And the Hard work of friendship.
- [57:21]
A
Can I suggest a book to you now that this book is out in the world? It's called these heathens by Mia McKenzie. Have you heard of it?
- [57:29]
B
I love that. I love the title.
- [57:31]
A
Okay, so I'm going to tell. She was on the show last year when the book came out. It's about a teenage girl who gets pregnant in a small town outside of a. Like, in Georgia. And she has a teacher who take. Who she asks to help her, who takes her to Atlanta in the 1960s to get an abortion. And she. The teacher. It's sort of a comedy. It sort of forces Gumpian, the teacher is friends with Coretta Scott King. Circle of friends. They go around. But it is about black women in the same time, in the same place. And I just. As I was reading this, I thought this is sort of the comedy version of a lot of the things that you talk about in Kin. And to me, I think they are like a perfect pairing of two totally different books that are talking about what it means and what it meant to be a black woman carving out their own path in Atlanta in the 1950s and 60s. So I suggest it to you. I suggest it to.
- [58:25]
B
Listen, I'm mad that I didn't already know about it.
- [58:27]
A
It's so. It just came out last year. And it's probably great that you didn't know about it as you were working on this book, because they are definitely in conversation. But about halfway through your book, I was like, I feel like Kin and. And the main character in this book is so cute and so sweet. Like, she's just such a great character. And I feel like it's just. It's a. It's a great book. Okay, last question. If you could have one person dead or alive, read Kin, who would you want it to be?
- [58:54]
B
Oh, that's a really hard question. I mean, of course, for anything. I'm not. I refuse. I'm not going to say Toni Morrison. I'm not, not, not. But you know what? I wish Nikki Giovanni. I wish Nikki was alive. I think Nikki would have liked this one. I would love to show it to her. I feel like I. I was often trying to please her. She could be a tough customer. You know, she didn't love Silver Sparrow
- [59:20]
A
and she let you know.
- [59:21]
B
Yes, but she liked An American Marriage, but I. I would have liked for her to see this one.
- [59:26]
A
I love that so much. All right, ladies and gentlemen, you can get Kin now. Wherever you get your books, it is out in the world. It comes with a huge gold star from me. I think if you like this podcast, if you trust me, I think you're gonna love it. If you don't trust me, your loss. But Teari, thank you so much for being here. Thank you for writing this. Thank you for being a literary star out in the world for so many people to look to.
- [59:56]
B
Well, thank you for all that you do to help writers get the word out there. So there are fewer and fewer places where people can go for book recommendations they can trust and you do more than your share. So on behalf of everybody, I say thank you.
- [60:10]
A
You thank you and everybody else. We will see you in the Stacks. Thank you all so much for listening and thank you again to Teari Jones for joining the show. I'd also like to say a huge thank you to Emily Reardon for making this episode possible. Our book club pick for March is Paradise by Toni Morrison. We will be discussing the book on Wednesday, March 25 with Nwali Serpel. If you love the Stacks, if you want a little more of it, you want some inside access, go ahead to patreon.com the stacks to join the Stacks Pack and check out my newsletter at Tracy Thomas substack.com make sure you're subscribed to the Stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts. And if you're listening through Apple Podcasts or Spotify, please leave us a rating and a review. For more from the Stacks, follow us on social media, Hestacks, Pod, on Instagram, threads and now YouTube and you can check out our website atthestacks podcast.com this episode of the Stacks was edited by Christian Duenas with production assistance from Sahara Clement. Additional support was provided by Sheree Marquez and our theme music is from Tagirajis. The Stacks is created and produced by me, Tracy Thomas.
- [61:25]
B
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- [61:31]
A
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B
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