Ep. 418 I Write and Speak Unlawfully with Mahogany L. Browne

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Stacks, Ep. 418 – "I Write and Speak Unlawfully" with Mahogany L. Browne

Date: April 1, 2026
Host: Traci Thomas
Guest: Mahogany L. Browne (poet, author, educator, organizer)
Episode Theme:
A free-flowing, insightful conversation tracing Mahogany L. Browne’s journey from childhood in Oakland to her status as a celebrated poet and YA author, including her influences, attitudes toward criticism and perfectionism, the path to writing for young people, and a deep dive into her reading life and philosophy around literature.

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Main Themes and Purpose

• Exploring Mahogany’s journey from her early days in Oakland to becoming a critically acclaimed writer in New York.
• Discussing the evolution of her writing, especially the shift from poetry and journalism to Young Adult (YA) fiction and the unique challenges and motivations in writing for teens.
• Reflecting on representation in literature, the importance of bringing marginalized narratives to the page, and how reading transformative books shaped her as a writer.
• Digging into criticism, perfectionism, and the role of community in the creative journey.
• Sharing book recommendations, reading habits, and the ethic of ‘notice and wonder’ as an approach to reading and writing.

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Episode Breakdown

1. Mahogany’s Origin Story and Early Love of Books

[07:28 – 10:12]

• Mahogany credits a fourth-grade project for her passion for storytelling (“I made this book by hand... and I just love the practice. I loved the end result.” – 07:52, Mahogany).
• Early writing imitated Sweet Valley High and Judy Blume, but finding Toni Morrison’s "The Bluest Eye" in seventh grade was transformative:

  “It wasn’t until The Bluest Eye where I saw myself. And that was scary and amazing. And I was crying in the stacks, literally on the floor...” ([09:27] Mahogany)

• Reading Morrison made her realize she could write about her own lived experiences, including police brutality and systemic injustice:

  “I can talk about all these things that are absolutely racialized and a part of my identity... and that be worthy of a story, be worthy of the page.” ([10:20] Mahogany)

2. From Oakland to New York: Writing, Community, and Becoming a Professional Author

[15:34 – 22:45]

• Journalism as an entry point: Mahogany’s early 20s involved hip-hop journalism, but she pivoted after harmful experiences as a Black woman in those spaces.
• Found community and affirmation in the world of poetry and teaching, which evolved into writing for young people.
• Mentorship and “baby lies”: Encouragement from Jason Reynolds propelled her to write for youth:

  “Jason Reynolds... would be like, when you gonna write that book? To which I responded, I write and speak unlawfully. They don’t want this... And he said, the kids talk like that too, Mo. They need your voice.” ([20:25] Mahogany)

• Key moment: reading the poem "Blurred Vision" at Girls Right Now led two editors to ask if she had a YA novel in progress. She said, “Yes”—though she didn’t—but this sparked her actual work on YA fiction.
• Major support from Jacqueline Woodson (agent connection) and Nic Stone (editor connection) helped launch her publishing career.

3. Critical Success and Navigating Recognition vs. Perfectionism

[25:08 – 29:20]

• Despite being “Mahogany L. Browne” to the world, she’s often too busy working to internalize accolades:

  “I do see opportunities, I do see my position in the world. Right. Like, I’m known in several worlds... That feels good... Because I come from a space where it’s natural to be just a hater.” ([26:06] Mahogany)

• Traci and Mahogany discuss how criticism always lands harder than praise—a mindset tied to their athletic backgrounds and relentless drive.

  “The wins are never as good as the defeats are bad.” ([27:46] Traci quoting a family friend) “I'm wondering if it’s not just that, but also... maybe because our specific world only recognizes or highlights... the list and the winners and the accreditation and the prizes.” ([28:25] Mahogany)

• The two agree that cultural pressure around accolades vs. process can complicate authentic pride in success.

4. Attitude Toward Critique and Creative Resilience

[31:21 – 32:38]

• Mahogany shares advice from her brother:

  “What you eat don’t make me shit. That’s it. ... What they’re saying doesn’t have to impact me.” ([31:33] Mahogany)

• Emphasizes resilience in the face of criticism and feeding off constructive feedback:

  “While you’re sharing all your opinions, just remember you are the one in the audience clapping for me.” ([32:03] Mahogany)

5. Book Recommendations and Reading Habits

[36:26 – 52:01]

• Ask The Stacks segment: Mahogany and Traci recommend memoirs and essay collections for listeners who love nonfiction:
  • Mahogany: Taste of Power by Elaine Brown (“the only woman to ever run the Black Panther party”), Inciting Joy by Ross Gay, and Light of the World by Elizabeth Alexander (“so beautiful... The language is just succinct, precise, sharp” – 40:05 Mahogany).
  • Traci: London Falling by Patrick Radden Keefe, Strangers by Bell Burden, Light of the World (again).
• Mahogany’s “two books I love, one I hate” ([41:53]):
  • Love: Salvage the Bones by Jesmyn Ward, Black Girl in Paris by Shay Youngblood
  • Hate: Soft Core (“Don't recommend. If you have Luster by Raven Leilani, you don't need it.”)
• Mahogany’s reading method, informed by ADHD:

  “I just read three to four books at a time. When I’m bored, put it down. Pick up the other. I have a poetry book, short story collection, a fiction book, and then an anthology of some sort.” ([43:10] Mahogany)

• Current reads include Room Swept Home by Ramika Bingham Risher, Hala Alyan’s memoir, and If I Ruled the World by Amy Louise.

6. The Philosophy of “Notice & Wonder” in Reading and Art

[48:27 – 50:30]

• Discussion of using the kindergarten practice of “notice and wonder” as a liberating way to engage with poetry and books.

  “All analysis is not this is correct or this is wrong... we absolutely have the words to speak about our humanity.” ([48:13] Mahogany) “Notice and wonder—that’s the crux of poetry building.” ([49:13] Mahogany)

• Both believe this lens applies beyond poetry—to all art and even to podcasting and interviews.

7. Lighthearted Rapid Fire – Reading Setups, Favorite Snacks, and More

[56:16 – 57:22]

• Ideal reading setup: “Beach cabana. The ocean, I can smell it. The heat of the sun, I can feel it... My cup is never empty—pina coladas... Snacks: jalapeno kettle chips, chicken tender, lightly breaded, lemon pepper, a proper fry, and a ranch ketchup, Caesar salad.” ([56:25] Mahogany)

8. Quick Takes: Books and Authors

[58:23 – 62:26]

• Last book that made her laugh: Little Rot
• Last book that made her cry: Salvage the Bones
• Book that made her angry: Push by Sapphire
• Book she feels embarrassed for not having read: “I haven’t read any Joan Didion.” ([59:10] Mahogany)
• Problematic faves: “Iceberg Slim... Urban lit. Love it. Lived it.”
• High school assignment: “Maya Angelou’s I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings... It also centers the child in these like, really painful situations. But to know that she survived it and became so much, I think that is extremely helpful for young people who are constantly surviving.” ([60:27] Mahogany)
• Who should write the book of her life: “Imani Perry. Or Kimon Felix.” ([61:27] Mahogany)
• Book for the President: “Probably a banned book. Roots by Alex Haley.” ([62:04] Mahogany)

9. Closing Community and Oakland Love

[63:13 – End]

• Mahogany credits Traci as “one of the best things that Oakland, California has produced." ([63:19] Mahogany)
• The episode closes with mutual admiration and jokes about Oakland and Puerto Rico being overproducers of greatness.

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Notable Quotes by Timestamp

• On representation in books:

  “It wasn’t until The Bluest Eye where I saw myself. And that was scary and amazing. And I was crying in the stacks, literally on the floor…”
  – Mahogany, [09:27]

• On being pushed into YA by Jason Reynolds:

  “I write and speak unlawfully. They don’t want this. They’re not gonna teach this in schools.”
  – Mahogany, [20:27]
  “The kids talk like that too, Mo. They need your voice.”
  – Jason Reynolds (via Mahogany), [20:30]

• On the tension between praise and criticism:

  “The wins are never as good as the defeats are bad.”
  – Traci, [27:46]

• On reading philosophy:

  “Notice and wonder—that’s the crux of poetry building.”
  – Mahogany, [49:13]

• On the joy of snacks and reading:

  “Beach cabana. The ocean, I can smell it. The heat of the sun... Pina coladas... jalapeno kettle chips, chicken tender, lightly breaded, lemon pepper, a proper fry, and a ranch ketchup.”
  – Mahogany, [56:25]

• On Oakland:

  "You're one of the best things that Oakland, California has produced."
  – Mahogany, [63:19]

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Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• [07:28] – Mahogany’s early relationship to reading and writing
• [09:27] – The impact of finding "The Bluest Eye"
• [15:34] – Transition to writing professionally and journalism days
• [20:25] – Jason Reynolds’ influence (“write and speak unlawfully”)
• [25:08] – Critical acclaim, recognition, and perfectionist mindset
• [31:33] – Resilience in the face of criticism
• [36:26] – Book recommendations and Ask the Stacks
• [43:10] – Mahogany’s multi-book reading habit & ADHD experience
• [48:13] – The “notice and wonder” approach
• [56:16] – Ideal reading setup and snacks
• [58:23] – Last book that made her laugh, cry, angry, etc.
• [60:27] – Book she’d assign if teaching HS – I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings
• [62:04] – Book she’d assign to the President – Roots by Alex Haley
• [63:19] – Oakland pride and closing camaraderie

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Tone and Takeaways

The tone throughout is warm, candid, celebratory, and community-oriented, balancing serious inquiry (race, reading, creative work) with humor, personal anecdotes, and genuine admiration between host and guest. Mahogany is introspective, gracious, and unapologetically honest about the complexities of striving for excellence and truth in creative and educational spaces.

Essential Takeaways:

• Mahogany L. Browne’s story is one of community, perseverance, and the urgent need for authentic stories reflecting Black life in all its complexity.
• Representation—being both seen and heard—is an engine for young readers and writers alike.
• A career can thrive through creative pivots and community mentorship.
• “Notice and wonder” is a powerful (and liberating) practice for all forms of reading and creativity.

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Next Book Club Pick:
Room Swept Home by Ramika Bingham Risher (to be discussed with Mahogany L. Browne, April 29)

For more:
Subscribe to The Stacks, join the Patreon, and check out www.thestackspodcast.com.

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Transcript

[Tracy Thomas]

Hey everybody, it's me, Tracy, and I've got some exciting news for you. This year, the stacks is turning 8 years old and we are celebrating with our very first Meetup day on Saturday, April 4. We are inviting you all to meet up in cities across the country and around the world to hang out, play games and build community around our shared love of all things books, reading, and, of course, snacks. Head to the stacks podcast.com meetup for more information. Over there, you're going to find a list of all the cities we have meetups scheduled for. You'll be able RSVP and if you don't see a meetup near you, there's also information on how you can host one again. The website is thestaxpodcast.com Meetup and meetup day is April 4th.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

This young man, you may know him, named Jason Reynolds, I could always find him at Peach's Bar. And I would come in and he'd be like, when you gonna write that book? To which I responded, I write unlawfully. They don't want this. They're not gonna teach this in schools. And he said, the kids talk like that too, Mo. They need your voice. I decided, all right, I'll give it a shot. And it was a poem that I read called Blurred Vision. And I read that poem at Girls Right Now. Two editors came up to me and asked, are you working on a young adult novel? I wasn't, but I said, mm, actually, this is it. I'm almost finished. And now that was the beginning.

[Tracy Thomas]

Welcome to the Stacks of podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host, Tracy Thomas, and today I am joined by poet, writer, organizer and educator, Mahogany L. Brown. Mahogany is the author of several novels and poetry collections, including the National Book Award long listed interconnected short story collection A Bird in the Air Means We Can Still Breathe and Woke A Young Poet's Call to Justice. Today we discuss her journey from Oakland, California to critically acclaimed poet. We talk about criticism, perfectionism and the books that have shaped her. Our book club pick this month is Room Swept Home by Ramika Bingham Risher. We will be discussing that book on Wednesday, April 29, with Mahogany L. Brown returning as our guest. Everything we talk about on each episode of the Stacks is linked in our show notes. And if you like this podcast and you want more bookish content, more bookish community, consider joining the Stacks Pack on Patreon and subscribing to my newsletter unstacked on substack. In each of those places, I offer you different perks like, over on Patreon, we have our virtual book club meetups, we have our discord. And then on my sub stack, you're going to be getting my writing and Hot takes, my ranking of the books I read each month. And either place you support, you get to know that you're making it possible for me to make the podcast. So head to patreon.com the stacks to join the stacks pack and subscribe to my newsletter at Tracy thomas.substack.com All right, now it is time for my conversation with Mahogany L. Brown.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Foreign

[Tracy Thomas]

everybody.

[Sahara Clement]

I'm so excited. I feel like this episode has been

[Tracy Thomas]

a year in the making because I met today's wonderful guest a year ago at awp and I said, we're gonna make this happen because I'm obsessed with you. I don't know when, but we're gonna make it happen. And so I am thrilled today to be joined by poetry, author, organizer, activist,

[Sahara Clement]

artist, amazing human being, Mahogany L. Brown. Welcome.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, and also Oakland girl.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Yes.

[Sahara Clement]

Well, Oakland woman, but it's an Oakland.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

I like Oakland girl. As you know, they raised me. They made me.

[Sahara Clement]

That's right.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

I didn't get to New York until, what, 26 years ago.

[Sahara Clement]

That's a long time ago, though.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Yeah, it is.

[Tracy Thomas]

Have you been in New York now longer than you were in Oakland?

[Mahogany L. Brown]

I turned 50 in April.

[Sahara Clement]

You turned 50 in April?

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Yes.

[Sahara Clement]

Mo.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

So I have one year over. Yeah.

[Sahara Clement]

You look 27.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Come on, somebody.

[Sahara Clement]

I mean, 50.

[Tracy Thomas]

How exciting. What are you going to do for your birthday?

[Sahara Clement]

Anything.

[Tracy Thomas]

Ooh.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

I've decided this is my year long celebration.

[Sahara Clement]

Okay.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

So I have a 50 birthday bucket list.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay. Can you share some of the things that are on it?

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Oh, absolutely. I've done stuff already. I started.

[Sahara Clement]

Okay.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

You know. Okay, well, obviously I did like a Top Chef competition.

[Tracy Thomas]

Were you cooked?

[Mahogany L. Brown]

I judged.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay, but do you cook?

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Not on purpose.

[Sahara Clement]

Okay, but who are the top chefs?

[Mahogany L. Brown]

You know, the problem is this is what my partner says. You're good at so many things that when you are not good at something, you, like, get turned off very easily. And I could say that about cooking. It is not a promised success. Just because I spent two and a half hours on this roux.

[Sahara Clement]

Right.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Don't mean that gumbo gonna be banging. But my gumbo is banging.

[Sahara Clement]

Okay. Okay.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

I got like seven, eight staples that I can make.

[Sahara Clement]

And that's one of them.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

That's one of them.

[Sahara Clement]

And who were the chefs that you judged?

[Mahogany L. Brown]

One was Chef Brian and Chef.

[Sahara Clement]

But these are like real chefs. It wasn't like, you got your friends together and you were like, we're gonna do a Top Chef competition. Like, really judged.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

One competition space, like a cooking classes. And this is one of their. Their options.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, my God.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

So I was like, I want to go watch people sweat in real time over how my steak needs to be prepared.

[Sahara Clement]

Oh, my gosh.

[Tracy Thomas]

Wait.

[Sahara Clement]

This is so juicy. I turned 40 this year.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Yes.

[Tracy Thomas]

And so.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

And looking 22.

[Tracy Thomas]

Trying.

[Sahara Clement]

Trying so hard.

[Tracy Thomas]

I am gonna.

[Sahara Clement]

I think I'm gonna do a party,

[Tracy Thomas]

but now I feel like for 50.

[Sahara Clement]

I like this year long celebration idea.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Just do it. I have a New Orleans French Quarter thing scheduled.

[Sahara Clement]

Okay.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Another trip to Morocco. This black woman wellness space in Sedona.

[Sahara Clement]

Ooh, I want to come to that part.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Done.

[Sahara Clement]

Let me. Let me know when that is on the West Coast.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

I told you, I'm doing it everywhere.

[Sahara Clement]

Okay. I love this. Okay. This is amazing. So we know a few things about you. We know that you're celebrating your birthday.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Yes.

[Sahara Clement]

We know that you're 49, almost 50.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Yes.

[Tracy Thomas]

What's the actual birthday?

[Mahogany L. Brown]

420.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay, wait, I love this.

[Sahara Clement]

Does this make you an Aries or a Taurus?

[Tracy Thomas]

I love an April woman Taurus.

[Sahara Clement]

I have, like four friends who fall

[Tracy Thomas]

in that very slim.

[Sahara Clement]

There's like a week.

[Tracy Thomas]

And I love you guys. I love it. I love it. I don't have any feelings about May women Tauruses, but April women Tauruses. There is something about you guys that I just love it.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

We're just so devout. Our love is devout. Our fight is devout. And our demand for luxury and good foods is devout.

[Sahara Clement]

Yes. Okay. I love this. Okay, here's what I want to know about you. And maybe people listening are curious about this part. Since this is a book podcast. What is your story with books?

[Tracy Thomas]

Tell us a little bit about yourself, where you.

[Sahara Clement]

We know you come from Oakland.

[Tracy Thomas]

When did you get into books? When did you decide I'm gonna write? When I Did you decide I'm gonna write books?

[Sahara Clement]

Tell us a little bit.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

It was fourth grade where I knew I wanted to be an author. It was a project in class. Shout out to Ms. Meeks. We'll never forget her. I knew then, oh, this is so cool. I made this book by hand. You know, the wrapping paper and the cardboard and you. Oh, yeah, do the glue sticks and you sew and then you put the story inside. And I just love the practice. I loved the end result. That's when I fell in love. For real? For real. I then went to the library.

[Tracy Thomas]

But what about the Writing part.

[Sahara Clement]

Did you like the writing part or did you like the book making?

[Mahogany L. Brown]

I had terrible handwriting.

[Sahara Clement]

Okay. Okay.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

But I loved making a story.

[Sahara Clement]

Okay.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

And I loved how people listened when I was reading because as a young person, you're constantly aware of when someone is listening to you and when they're not. Right. So that was the one thing that I felt. It felt true. I'm writing this thing, and they're listening to me intentionally. So I knew then. And after three stories, everybody was having the same kind of hair color. Red.

[Sahara Clement]

Okay.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

They were like, you know, Irish princesses.

[Tracy Thomas]

Sure.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

I then was like, I need to go to the library. I need new stories.

[Sahara Clement]

Yeah.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Fell in love with all things Sweet Valley High, Christopher Pike, Judy Blume, Beverly, clearly. But I found Toni Morrison's Bluest Eye. And I had.

[Tracy Thomas]

When you were in fourth grade, around

[Mahogany L. Brown]

seventh grade at that point. So three years in, me constantly writing, mimicking Sweet Valley High. And it wasn't until Bluest Eye where I saw myself. And that was scary and amazing. And I was crying in the stacks, like, literally on the floor, like, I couldn't believe all this had happened to this baby. And she was just like me. And that's when I think I became a different kind of reader and absolutely an invigorated and revolutionized writer.

[Tracy Thomas]

When you say a different kind of reader, what kind of reader were you

[Sahara Clement]

before, and what kind of reader did

[Tracy Thomas]

that make you become?

[Mahogany L. Brown]

The kind of reader I was before was someone who was just excited to share, to read anything. I didn't care if it was bad. I didn't care if there was no representation of the people that lived in my community or went to my school or went to my church. I didn't. I just wanted a story. And in turn, I didn't. After, you know, reading Blue aside, I then realized how much I have the articulation now. I didn't have it then, but I just felt ousted. Right? Marginalized, even as a reader. So it was then with Elder Morrison's work where I was like, oh, no. I can talk about being called the N word while walking to school and the father being like, good job, son. I can talk about, like. I can talk about all these things that are absolutely racialized and a part of my identity and everydayness in this specific country and that be worthy of a story, be worthy of the page. I don't have to talk about, like, I did have boy crushes. But were they more important than the police brutality that I witnessed in my community? No. Right. My. All the men in my Family have been impacted by the massive gray search system, all of them. And I didn't have anywhere to write that down because we were. We were told to be shamed. We were taught to be shamed, even if they weren't doing anything. One of my uncles got pulled over because he was driving, and he did a California role is what the cops said. Oh, yeah, right. So that's what I mean. I was revolutionized and radicalized because I then realized how many of our stories were not in those pages, and I wanted to be the one to bring them there. At least one of. I did find Iceberg Slim. And, you know, the. The. The truths. They've been there too. But it just felt so inherently different to what I was experiencing, and I wanted to add that to the quilt.

[Tracy Thomas]

I think what's so interesting about Toni Morrison, and this is fresh in my mind because as we're recording this, it's the end of March, which this month on the podcast, we read Paradise. And one of the things I think a lot about with her work is, like, it's really difficult, like, challenging writing. Right. Like, she is challenging her reader with her skill and her craft. You know, she's not making it easy for you, but it's so good that it really puts every other book in

[Sahara Clement]

sharp contrast, you know? Like, I think as adults, we can all agree that Sweet Valley High and the Bluest Eye are not the same quality, right? Sure.

[Tracy Thomas]

But as a child, you're reading these books and you're like, I love these characters. I love these stories. I'm having so much fun because I also love Sweet Valley High.

[Sahara Clement]

So I'm just thinking about, like, the ways that going between those two things was probably so crazy. Like, you could.

[Tracy Thomas]

Like that you couldn't even. You probably didn't even know that someone could write like that. Like, that that was even a way that a story could be told. Because at a young age, you're so used to reading books, even though we didn't. I mean, we had ya a little bit. Not, like, how it is now, but, like, you're used to reading books that are age appropriate, quote, unquote. And so I've just.

[Sahara Clement]

I'm fascinated by this idea of, like, you're sitting there being like, these twins are so great. Like, we love Bobby.

[Tracy Thomas]

Whatever.

[Sahara Clement]

And then it's like Pecola. Like, it's, like, quiet as it's kept. You're like, wait, what the. That's not even been a sentence ever in the history of anything you've ever read until that moment.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

But how amazing it was is that it was my grandmother's language. Her language, Right.

[Tracy Thomas]

Like you recognized it.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Oh, my God. It was like my grandma was talking to me. And so, yeah, my grandmother also introduced me to Harlequin Romance. Let me say that.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay. Okay.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

That was some of my first, earliest on my own readings. Like, I think I was eighth, ninth grade.

[Sahara Clement]

Okay.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

I wasn't allowed to go where my other cousins could go, so she had the stack, and that's what I was reading. But Bluest Eye reminded me of her. Like, how she spoke, the sweetness, the tell it like it is.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Can't get nothing like that.

[Tracy Thomas]

Do you remember? Have you. You've reread it since.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

I haven't reread Blue as Eye since, like, maybe two years.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay, but you've reread it since seventh grade?

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Oh, absolutely.

[Tracy Thomas]

Many times, yes. Do you. Was there ever a time where you

[Sahara Clement]

reread it and you were like, wait, I read this in seventh grade?

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

I said nobody was supervising me.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Sahara Clement]

Because that's what my thought was, was like, seventh grade feels. How did you get any of it?

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Well, they wouldn't let me check it out.

[Sahara Clement]

Oh, that's why you were in the stacks. Yeah. Sneaky, sneaky. Okay, so here's my question for you.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

You.

[Tracy Thomas]

When do you actually start taking steps

[Sahara Clement]

towards becoming a professional writer?

[Tracy Thomas]

Like, when did you actually, like, you

[Sahara Clement]

knew you wanted to, but what. At what point did you go there?

[Mahogany L. Brown]

After high school, I was writing articles as a freelance journalist, and then I became, like, an editor at this independent hip hop journalism magazine in Oakland. Actually in Berkeley. I was 22, so. 22. I was like, I'm writing for real? For real. And I also worked at the Children's Hospital, Oakland.

[Sahara Clement]

Shout out.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Yep. Walked down the street to get my cake from. It's all good. Every single day.

[Tracy Thomas]

They closed. Do you know that they just closed this year?

[Sahara Clement]

Like, a few months.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Devastation.

[Sahara Clement]

Yeah. That sweet potato cake.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Oh, but also the fact that they had this cake spot in the. The. The belly of the Black Panther office.

[Sahara Clement]

Yeah.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

It was so magical. Dang. I'm so sorry to hear that.

[Sahara Clement]

Me, too.

[Tracy Thomas]

Sorry, sorry, sorry.

[Sahara Clement]

Everyone's mood down. Yeah. For those of you who've never had the pleasure of having. It's all good bakeries. Sweet potato cake. Let me just tell you, you have never lived, ever, Ever.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

I would come to town, get two peach cobblers, freeze them, and then bring them back to Brooklyn.

[Sahara Clement]

Oh, my God. So good.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Highly worth it.

[Tracy Thomas]

RIP. Okay, here's my question for you. Because you write These beautiful YA books. Your book from last year, A Bird

[Sahara Clement]

in the Air Means We Can Still Breathe, is like.

[Tracy Thomas]

Are these interconnected short stories set during COVID in New York City? In Brooklyn and this and throughout the city, Inverse. And also in prose about these kids and the community and I guess, I don't know, I. I loved this book. I thought it was so sweet and so good and there's like charact I still think about and it's like such a. What do you even call it? It's like a slice of life book where it's like you're getting all these different people who are connected, but maybe they don't know each other or they kind of know each other and it's like, oh, you know, the guy who sold us or whatever, and then you get his perspective or what? I just loved it. And I guess I want to know, like, when did you decide you wanted to write for young people?

[Mahogany L. Brown]

That's hard. That didn't come naturally, actually, for me. So doing the journalism bit, that was a three year stint. It moved me to New York. It allowed me to get this internship at XXL and see Kierna Mayo and Jocelyn create Honey in Real Time, interview little Kim and X and Kelis. And like, that was my intro into New York City writing. And within two years, the misogyny took me out, like not being able to walk into spaces because my body was in harm's way just because I'm a woman. Right, right. That kept happening. So the final straw where during an interview, I was threatened with being pistol whipped because he didn't like my question while we were driving scary down the FDR 65 easily. And I'm like, do I jump? Do I what? Yeah, what do I do? I'm just asking a question about mentorship. That was it. That was it for me. So I fully pivoted, focused on poetry, began touring, and in my touring I started teaching. Some of these poems were not working with young people, right? So I started writing with a little more def ness D E, F T ness and mindfulness for my new audience. And after 13 years, this young man, you may know him, named Jason Reynolds, was like the lorist of Brooklyn. And I could always find him at Peaches Bar Bar, the bar top for brunch. And I would come in and he'd be like, when you gonna write that book? We gonna write that book for kids. Mo, you're doing good with poems. You're killing it. But what about the kids? To which I responded, I write and speak unlawfully they don't want this. They're not gonna teach this in schools.

[Sahara Clement]

I curse too much.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

It's not gonna work. Eddie said, the kids talk like that too, Mo. They need your voice. You are telling their stories already. Just put it in this form. And so after a year of that, I decided, all right, I'll give it a shot. And it was a poem that I read called Blurred Vision. You can still see it online. I'm reading a poem about this young girl who sees the bullying happening to her through an interaction with her best friend. And so she's, like, witnessing the bullying happen outside of their friendship, and then that friend becoming a part of the bullying group. And I read that poem at what is it girls right now. And they had mentors with traditional editors and the big fivers and all that. And me reading that poem in that space, two editors came up to me and asked, are you working on a young adult novel? And I said, yeah, I wasn't. But actually, this is it. I'm almost finished. And that was the beginning, that first little baby lie, which was in my head. I was writing it. I hadn't written it down, but I was in my head thinking, Jason said, I should do this. I probably should do this. Oh, they like this poem. I could turn this poem into a story.

[Tracy Thomas]

And at this point, was Jason already writing?

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Absolutely.

[Sahara Clement]

Okay, okay, okay.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

He was already. I think Ghost was already out by then.

[Sahara Clement]

Okay.

[Tracy Thomas]

I did not know. I did not know that Jason was part of your origin story.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Yeah, I just talked about this online. Jason prompted me to do the ya. I had a children's book. So when that editor said, we want to do a book with you, I said, well, that one's not done yet, but I have this other thing I'm working on. And I showed them Black Girl Magic, the illustrated book that Jess X. Chin drew beautifully for. And they were like, oh, we would like that. And whatever else you're doing, we just want to work with you. So that was the beginning. J.

[Sahara Clement]

How affirming. We just want to work with you.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

We just want to work with you. And so Jason brought that in. And then Jacqueline Woodson and Jason were talking at Harlem Fett to me about options, and Jackie saw the little PDF pages, and she said, this is brilliant. You have an agent? And I said, no, you want one? And I said, yeah. So Jason got me to write ya. Jackie Woodson got me. My agent walked me right in, and Nic Stone got my first YA novel, picked up by my now editor and her editor, Phoebe.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, how do the kids respond to you. Do they love you? Do they eat you up?

[Mahogany L. Brown]

You know, I want to say, yes, they love me, but I think I'm funnier to me than I am to them. I be throwing game and I'm cracking up and they just look at me like, you know, so I just lean in. I lean in.

[Sahara Clement]

You know, like, you've been with Jason when he's been out in the world and the kids just like, love, adore him. Oh, my. I think I'm in love with him. The way the kids. I'm like, okay, you can have him. Fine, I'll get out the way. I'm not even that into him. I swear.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

I'll move. I'll move. What do you think? No, I'm not. I don't have it like Jason.

[Sahara Clement]

No.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay.

[Sahara Clement]

Okay.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Absolutely not.

[Sahara Clement]

I just. I'm so. I'm so removed from it that I'm like, I'm. I'm excited because my kids are 6,

[Tracy Thomas]

but I know my kids get a

[Sahara Clement]

little older and they start to have, like, school visits from authors. I'm about to be the coolest mom ever. When I'm bringing you and Nick and Jace, I'm gonna be like, oh, oh, mommy's friends. Oh, you want mommy's friend to come to a reading at school?

[Tracy Thomas]

School.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Okay, no problem. Let me text Uncle Jay real quick.

[Sahara Clement]

Yes, yes, yes. I was like, oh, Uncle Jason.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, yeah, sure.

[Sahara Clement]

I'm sure he'll swing by, you know. Oh, Auntie Mo.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, we could get her.

[Sahara Clement]

I mean, if you guys want her. I mean, she's only like, only been like a National Book Award long list author, like just like a 500 times. So like, maybe.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. I mean, okay, so what is that,

[Sahara Clement]

what is it like for you to

[Tracy Thomas]

be, you know, coming. Coming up from, like, you come from journalism, you're a poet. You kind of get like talked into

[Sahara Clement]

doing all this, and then all of

[Tracy Thomas]

a sudden your work is recognized critically. You're. You're on these lists. You are Mahogany L. Brown. Like, you are a known person. People cite you as an influence, as. As an advocate, as an inspiration. Like, before we ever met, your name had come up so many times. And. And Disha Philia is the one who introduced us, but she was. We were at lunch and she was like, mo's gonna come too. And I was like, oh, my God,

[Sahara Clement]

I'm so excited to meet her.

[Tracy Thomas]

Like, you have become such a force. So what's that been like for you to not only be beloved by your peers, but also to be critically acclaimed.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

I'm so thankful because I don't know if I see, see it the same. I'm.

[Tracy Thomas]

How do you see it?

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Too busy working.

[Sahara Clement]

I see.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Yeah, I don't see it the same. I do see opportunities. I do see my position in the world. Right. Like, I'm known in several worlds. Not just poetry, not just ya, not just theater, not just hip hop journalism. Like, I've kind of made, I tried to make the rounds of all humanities through poetry. And that feels good to know that people remember me fondly and they hold my name up. Because I come from a space where it's natural to be just a hater. It's natural to want to say, ugh, it's not that good, or I don't like her because she did. That's the space. I come from the performance poetry world. It can be community, but it can also be, you could be like that little, that little baby in the whale. You just can't never get out.

[Sahara Clement]

Oh, baby in the well. I thought you said baby in the whale. I was like, Moby Dick.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

No, the well.

[Sahara Clement]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, baby.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Jessica.

[Sahara Clement]

Yes. Oh, yes.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Oh, my gosh, I'm thankful. So when you say it, I'm like, really? That's so dope. Because I only hear, you know, the naysayers.

[Sahara Clement]

That's.

[Tracy Thomas]

But that's your personality.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

I think so.

[Tracy Thomas]

I have this too.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

I deal well with adversity.

[Tracy Thomas]

Me too. I, I, one of my family friends

[Sahara Clement]

is like, is a baseball manager and

[Tracy Thomas]

we were out to dinner and he was saying, the wins are never as

[Sahara Clement]

good as the defeats are bad.

[Tracy Thomas]

And I was like, I think this is a personality type. I don't know, maybe everybody feels that way, but I feel like it's like a kind of like relentless, hard working, sort of perfectionist kind of person where it's like, I, you could say ten

[Sahara Clement]

nice things to me and one mean

[Tracy Thomas]

thing, and I will take that mean thing and I will keep it in a little locket and I will remember it and then I will do, I will fix it. And then I will come back to you and be like you.

[Sahara Clement]

Yeah, but the ten nice things, completely forgotten. Like, oh, they said something nice about me. Totally forgot.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Right. Because it also doesn't feel authentic. I'm wondering if it's not just that, but also maybe because our specific world only recognizes or highlights or celebrates or amplifies the list and the winners and the accreditation and the prizes. We never say, yo, you created a form. It's amazing. Yo, you invested 25 hours into making sure young people have a writing mentor. Thank you. We only see, oh, you won the slam. You won the prize. You're in this fellowship now. I can respect you. And I think because of that, I'm never just happy with the win.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. Yeah. Were you an athlete?

[Mahogany L. Brown]

I was.

[Tracy Thomas]

I think this is also part of it.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

I have a whole theory. I have a whole theory about authors who play sports.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

What sport did you play?

[Tracy Thomas]

Well, I was a dancer, but I grew up watching sports. Like, deep. Like, I'm an aggressive sports fan.

[Sahara Clement]

I did volleyball and basketball middle school,

[Tracy Thomas]

but I was a dancer. But I have a theory about people

[Sahara Clement]

who are in fields where you get

[Tracy Thomas]

a lot of real time feedback and, and, and where you take a lot of Ls, right?

[Sahara Clement]

Like as a dancer, you'll be on stage and your director will be like, you look fat and you're like, okay, got to finish this. Eight counts of eight. Like, you'll be in the middle of a thing and they'll be like, suck in. And you're just like, okay, like, thank

[Tracy Thomas]

you for the reminder. Or like, when you're an athlete, it's like you lose sometimes, your team loses sometimes, you lose sometimes, like, and that, that's just how it is. And, and I, I am fascinated by people in, like, one of the things

[Sahara Clement]

that has been the most, like, jarring

[Tracy Thomas]

for me as a person who talks to writers is that a lot of writers who did not have a sports or like that kind of background, like a real time feedback background, really struggle with the criticism. Like, it's like debilitating for them. Whereas, like, for me, and I think what I'm hearing from you is for you, it's like something not only that it like fuels you, but also that it's something that you are just like anticipating. You just know it's going to be there and it's like, it's not going to debilitate you because it's part of the whole thing. And, and so I, I do feel

[Sahara Clement]

like it's like if you were an athlete or whatever you can handle.

[Tracy Thomas]

You're, you're just like more primed to handle these things than people who were like, I always wanted to be a writer.

[Sahara Clement]

And I was like, from a young age, I just was like, writing and I'm like, right, I did an mfa and you know,

[Tracy Thomas]

but I don't know if it's real. That's just my theory.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

That's a good theory. I'm actually leaning into it because I'm like, oh, that's something. I'm not disabled, but my feelings are hurt. Right. I'm also working because I know that. Can I curse?

[Tracy Thomas]

Of course. I just sworn, like 50 times because

[Mahogany L. Brown]

I just thought of something my brother said. He's the one that taught me soft to play. To play softball. He said, what you eat don't make me shit. That's it. So the fact that someone is, you know, chopping their gums doesn't mean I have to follow them. And what they're saying doesn't have to impact me. I don't have to digest it. I can let it be what it is and keep it moving.

[Sahara Clement]

Yeah.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Another friend. What position? While you're sharing all your opinions, just remember you are the one in the audience clapping for me. And I love that those two help me.

[Tracy Thomas]

The one that my friend says to me, whenever people, like, criticize an episode of the show or, like, I didn't agree with what you said or whatever,

[Sahara Clement]

they always say, well, I can't wait

[Tracy Thomas]

to hear your podcast episode on that. I'm still looking forward to your episode.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

I like that book. I love when they're like, you need to write about this. Maybe you should write that book.

[Sahara Clement]

Maybe you should write that book.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Yeah, do that.

[Sahara Clement]

Thank you for giving me more work. Yeah, that's exactly right.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

A lot of effort into this podcast. Okay, I got five emails with distinctively different directions. Baby girl is primed. She got us primed. How dare you. You know, hold them opinions.

[Sahara Clement]

I do send a lot of emails. Because you'd be shocked how many people. We perfected this email because over the last eight years, we've had some issues.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

I'm not mad at it. I felt held.

[Sahara Clement]

Okay, good. I'm so glad. Okay, we're gonna take a quick break, and then we're gonna come back and talk more about books.

[Tracy Thomas]

Guess what April is. It's the Stacks anniversary month. That's right. We are officially 8 years old this month, which. What? How can that even be possible? That I have been talking into this very microphone for eight years straight with all of you. I love it. It is one of the great joys of my life, and I could not do it without the support of people. Listening to this independent podcast every week goes such a long way. And if you want to go the extra mile, consider supporting us on Patreon and Substack as well in both of these spaces. If you join on a paid tier, you make it possible for me to make this podcast every single week, and you earn perks for yourself over on Patreon you can come to our book club meetups, which are a hoot. You can join in our very active private Discord Channel. You can be part of our annual Mega Reading Challenge, which helps you diversify and broaden your reading life. Plus you get an exclusive bonus episode every month. Over on Substack, you get that same bonus episode. Plus you get all of my hot takes when you read my newsletter unstacked. Making this podcast takes an entire village. I do mean that as an independent creator, I could not make this show without the support of my Patreon and my Substack subscribers. You all allow me and my team to do the work that we love. Thank you, thank you, thank you. If you or your friends are looking to meet other book lovers and support an independent podcast, come hang out with me on [e-mail] the stacks and subscribe to my newsletter at Tracy Thomas substack.com When I started the Stacks, I quickly learned there was a lot more to having my own business than talking to authors and reading a lot of books. There were scripts to be written, episodes to be scheduled, logos to create social media to manage.

[Sahara Clement]

And you know what?

[Tracy Thomas]

That's just the tip of the iceberg. This list was endless. It felt like I was spending more time sorting through logistics than reading books. When you're starting your own business, it helps to have a tool that can simplify everything so you can focus on what matters most. That's why I want to introduce you all to Shopify. Shopify makes starting your own business feel seamless, with hundreds of ready to use templates to build your brand identity, AI tools to help you write, copy and enhance images, and built in marketing tools to create bespoke email and social campaigns and reach even more people. The best part is you can manage all your tasks in one place, making your life easier and your business operations way more efficient. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world, from household names to startups. Want to add your name to the list? Start your business today with the industry's best business partner, Shopify, and start hearing. Sign up for your $1 per month monthly trial today at shopify.com thestacks go to shopify.com thestacks that's shopify.com thestacks foreign. We are back. I did not prepare you for this next question. Okay, this is called Ask the Stacks and someone has written into Ask the Stacks at the stacks podcast.com also people,

[Sahara Clement]

please send us some of these. I'm really, I'm at the. I'm at the very end. Okay. Email.

[Tracy Thomas]

Ask the Stacks atthestacks podcast.com. this is from Nichelle and she says, much like yourself, I enjoy non fiction. Give me a memoir or true crime and I'm in. However, I have read so many of your Tracy's book recommendations in these genres that I feel like there's nothing great left. And then she listed a few of her favorites. And so here are the favorites. Heavy by ksa, Layman Hunger by Roxane Gay, Eloquent Rage by Britney Cooper, Born a Crime by Trevor Noah, how the Word is Passed by Clint Smith and Breathe by Imani Perry. Anything similar to these titles would be great. Yes, it's a great list. It's a bunch of my favorites. So I'm gonna give her three recommendations.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Okay.

[Tracy Thomas]

I'm gonna invite you to give her one to three, depending on whatever you come up with. Since I sprung this on you, I can go first or you can go first.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Okay, you go first while I look.

[Sahara Clement]

Okay. And it's non fiction, non fiction, memoir or true crime.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay. So here's what I decided, Nishelle, because you've read all of my favorites already, I'm gonna give you two brand new books. One that's not even out as you're

[Sahara Clement]

listening to this so that I know you haven't read it yet. Which is London Falling by my other boyfriend, not Jason.

[Tracy Thomas]

Patrick Ratting Keefe. I like to have at least two boyfriends going.

[Sahara Clement]

You guys know that about me. London Falling is by Patrick Radden Keefe.

[Tracy Thomas]

He is.

[Sahara Clement]

This book is about.

[Tracy Thomas]

It comes out April 7th. It is about a 19 year old boy named Zach Brettler in England who is found in the river. The. The. The Thames. Is that how you say it? The Thames. His parents are trying to figure out what happened to him. He has been involved with some sort of seedy dudes from London. And it is deep investigative journalism. You guys know I love Patrick from say Nothing and also Empire of Pain and this is a much smaller story. I think some people are going to be confused why Patrick's writing such a small story since his last two books are about really big things. But I love it. If you love his kind of writing, I think he's really firing on all cylinders. So that's one. The other one is a memoir. I read this last year, but it came out in January. I did not think I was going

[Sahara Clement]

to like this book, but I read it and I sneaky loved it. It is extreme white mess.

[Tracy Thomas]

It's called Strangers by Bell Burden.

[Sahara Clement]

She is like a grandchild of New York City elite socialites.

[Tracy Thomas]

Her husband decides during the first week

[Sahara Clement]

of COVID you know what?

[Tracy Thomas]

I don't actually want to be married to you anymore.

[Sahara Clement]

Abandons the family.

[Tracy Thomas]

And this is her memoir. And what I like about the book is it does touch on some real stuff about women and marriage and finances,

[Sahara Clement]

but also because they're so rich.

[Tracy Thomas]

It does.

[Sahara Clement]

There's a distance to it that makes it sort of enjoyable.

[Tracy Thomas]

And then the last one is by poet and memoirist. It is Light of the World by Elizabeth Alexander. This book is not brand new, but it is so beautiful. We did it for book club here, I want to say, in 2019. And I still think about this book all the time. It is about her. Her husband dies suddenly. She's got these two young kids, and it's her memoir. And it is. If you. If you've read, you know, Magical Thinking by Joan Didion, to me, it's better. I think this is a better grief memoir. I love this book so much. So those are my three recommendations.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

I would recommend Elizabeth as well. One of my favorite. And she's a poet, so the language is just succinct, precise, sharp.

[Tracy Thomas]

So sharp.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Ugh. It's so good. And you weep a lot. Yeah, I think. Memoir. Taste of Power by Elaine Brown. She was the only woman to ever run the Black Panther party in Oakland, but also she writes about SA cases that occur to her while she is the leader and how she had to negotiate that space while also trying to liberate black people. I think I also really, really cannot get over the essay collection by Ross Gay. Inciting Joy. Also nonfiction. Dealing with grief after the loss of his father and after losing my grandmother, my sister, and my cousin all in a span of eight months. That was something that I kept turning to his words because there's so much gratitude for the departure. Like, even though it's happening, even though you feel like you can't pick yourself up, this is what it means to be alive. And such a good. Such a good book to use as a touchstone.

[Tracy Thomas]

I love it. Those are so good. Nichelle. If you read any of our recommendations, let us know how we did. And everyone else, email, ask thestaxthestackspodcast.com I'm begging you. Okay. Two books you love, one book you

[Mahogany L. Brown]

hate, Two books I love. Salvage the Bones by Jasmine Ward. Black Girl in Paris. Shea Youngblood.

[Tracy Thomas]

I don't know that. I've never even heard of that.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

I'm gonna find you a copy. We just lost Sister Youngblood a couple of years ago, and she was. She had the tenacity of, like, June Jordan with the romance of Beverly Jenkins. That's a good merger. Those are my two loves. What did I hate?

[Sahara Clement]

Do it. I saw the face. Do it.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Soft core.

[Sahara Clement]

Oh, with the one with, like, the glove on it.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Yeah.

[Sahara Clement]

Okay.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Do not recommend.

[Sahara Clement]

Okay.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Because if you have Luster by Raven Leilani, you don't need it.

[Tracy Thomas]

And we do have Luster.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

And we do have Luster.

[Tracy Thomas]

I love Luster. We did that for a book club here.

[Sahara Clement]

A joy. I love that book. I love a messy black woman, young girl.

[Tracy Thomas]

I'm just like, yes.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Black girl in Paris. Is that. You're gonna love it. I'm telling you.

[Sahara Clement]

I can't wait. Who needs Emily in Paris, right? No one.

[Tracy Thomas]

What kind of reader are you?

[Mahogany L. Brown]

So I have adhd, okay? And funny enough, I grew up with it. I knew I had it. My brother has it, my mom has it. Like it's there. So the way I dealt with it is I just read three to four books at a time.

[Tracy Thomas]

Got it.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

When I'm bored. Put it down. Pick up the other. I have a poetry book, short story collection, a fiction book, and then an anthology of some sort.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay. What are you reading right now?

[Mahogany L. Brown]

I just finished rereading Room Swept Home,

[Tracy Thomas]

and that's our book club pick for the month.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Yes. I had to reread it. That girl, she go. And I'm also reading Hala Alyan, I'll Tell you when I'm Home, the new memoir.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay, that's. That's the memoir.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Yes.

[Sahara Clement]

So Hala also was on this show

[Tracy Thomas]

two years ago for Poetry Month.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Yes.

[Sahara Clement]

Which was a joy.

[Tracy Thomas]

I. I gotta say, I don't read

[Sahara Clement]

a lot of ya and I don't read a lot of poetry, but when I do, I. I do feel like I get the best people.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

I'm just saying, you choose the right ones. So. Which I.

[Sahara Clement]

Why, like, a whole committee who helped change your mind?

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Like a couple of them.

[Tracy Thomas]

Who changed my mind. Well, okay. I mean, obviously Jason Reynolds.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

I think Fred Joseph is great.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

I. I mean, I'm going to be really honest. Suzanne Collins.

[Sahara Clement]

Those Hunger Games books are we talk about.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

You're the only one I can text about it.

[Sahara Clement]

I love those books so much. So. So definitely her. I, Jose Olivares, is a poet who really helped me figure out that I liked poetry. Also Nate Marshall.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Yep.

[Tracy Thomas]

Also Ellen Bass. I've never had her on, but she

[Sahara Clement]

speaks to something in me for real.

[Tracy Thomas]

Last year we did Lucille Clifton with Tiana Clark. Yes.

[Sahara Clement]

And that combination, Tiana and Lucille and I.

[Tracy Thomas]

That was pretty wonderful.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Yeah. That's a nice matriarch right there.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

You have all the people I love.

[Sahara Clement]

I mean, so the way that I. The way that I pick people for Poetry Month and for the most part,

[Tracy Thomas]

is that I have a group chat

[Sahara Clement]

with Nate Marshall and Jose Olivares. They're like, real best friends. And I've just inserted myself in their relationship barely. And the poetry group I title, or the group chat, I titled the Three Poets, because obviously I'm the third poet. And every year I reach out to them. Anytime I read any poem that I think is good, and I tell them I read something that I liked. And in March or in.

[Tracy Thomas]

In February, I usually reach out to them and I say, okay, like, what

[Sahara Clement]

are some collections that you think I would like? Who are some poets this year?

[Tracy Thomas]

I didn't do that because I knew that I was going to ask you

[Sahara Clement]

because we had met. But last year they were like, you'll really like Tiana. Like, they.

[Tracy Thomas]

And, like, sometimes poets will send over,

[Sahara Clement]

like, these are the collection. Like, a list of collections that maybe we should do on the show. And then I send that list to them and I say, okay, you guys, me send. Tell me.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Right. Which is real.

[Tracy Thomas]

Well, also, like, they know my taste, but I don't really know my taste. I have a hard time articulating exactly what it is I like in poetry.

[Sahara Clement]

And so I'm like, would I like this collection? Would I like. So they really are my, like, poetry guides.

[Tracy Thomas]

So far, I'm getting better. I'm getting better.

[Sahara Clement]

But they have really helped me, so I owe them a great debt of gratitude. And then a few years ago, we did something called poetry therapy, which we made up, which is for a bonus episode.

[Tracy Thomas]

I had five different poets come on. They each picked an accessible poem that they love. They sent it to me. I read it once before the episode. I read it once on air. And then we discussed it and we talked about, like, why do you like it? What stands out?

[Sahara Clement]

And that was really fun because I think so many of us struggle with

[Tracy Thomas]

reading poetry and, like, getting in our heads and thinking there's supposed to be a right answer. And I certainly do. And I feel like talking to poets about poems opens up something.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

That maybe you wouldn't get just talking to a person who doesn't write and think about poems in the same way. So I think we might run back Poetry Month again for a bonus episode this month.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

That sounds super fun. It's exhaust. It's. It's also, excuse me. It's also what they do in poetry workshops. You bring a poem in and you analyze and all analysis is not. This is correct or this is wrong.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

A lot of it is, what were you taught? How were you taught to read? And some of us may not have the articulation that is normal to the tradition of poetry, but we absolutely have the words to speak about our humanity.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes. Something that they do in my kids class or in kindergarten is they will show like a picture and then they call it notice and wonder. And they're supposed to notice things and then wonder about things. And I've been thinking a lot about that since I learned about that they were doing this when I read poems, like, it's like, there's not a right answer. It's just like, what do you notice in this poem? What do you wonder about this poem? And I'm like, this is so such a more helpful framework for like seeing the world. I mean, it's a great framework for kids to start, you know, their education career. But also I was just thinking like, yes, there isn't necessarily right answer. Just like, this is what I'm getting

[Sahara Clement]

out of this poem.

[Tracy Thomas]

This is what I'm noticing. This is what I'm wondering. This is about you, though. I don't know why I'm talking so much.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

This is good. I love notice and wonder. I love noticing wonder. That's the crux of poetry building.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah. I mean, it's a crux of art.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

You have to notice.

[Tracy Thomas]

Don't you think it's a crux of all art making?

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Oh, I would love to believe so. I don't, I don't know good art making because I think that there's a different kind of muscle used with that alchemy. But I think you're right on the basis the foundation of being an art curator and creator means you have to notice the world around you, notice what's missing, notice what's there, notice who's remembered, notice who's erased and then wonder the exact opposite.

[Sahara Clement]

Yeah.

[Tracy Thomas]

I mean, I don't necessarily think that this podcast is art per se, but I do feel like notice and wonder

[Sahara Clement]

is basically the central tenets of how I read every book.

[Tracy Thomas]

Right.

[Sahara Clement]

Like, that's how I come up with the questions. I notice what has been mentioned in the book and I wonder, why did you do that? Or I wonder why didn't you do this? Or I wonder how did you name that person? Like, so I do, I feel like notice and wonder is like a really good way to be in the world.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

I think I love.

[Sahara Clement]

There's a lot of people who could

[Tracy Thomas]

notice and wonder a little more. Certainly wonder or read.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Just read. Or try and not read the books written by AI not read the materials where they created quotes from their imagination. Stats from their imagination. How you writing a non fiction book with fake facts?

[Tracy Thomas]

That's nuts.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Can't even build. I can't even build a boat with this. We don't sink.

[Sahara Clement]

Okay. What are some books you're looking forward

[Mahogany L. Brown]

to reading that are not yet out?

[Tracy Thomas]

No, it could just be books you've

[Sahara Clement]

been meaning to get to. It could be anything.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Oh.

[Sahara Clement]

Basically.

[Tracy Thomas]

What's on your current tbr?

[Mahogany L. Brown]

I actually returned to like the older books, but I did finally crack open if I. If I Ruled the World by Amy Louise.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. She's like the music writer, right? And she wrote the novel.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

She's from the journalism world.

[Sahara Clement]

Yeah.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

I'm reading her. I'm reading Be Easy by Adrienne Matika. His new book is coming out. And I'm reading Mom Unfiltering by Leah Kim. I don't know that that's a new nonfiction genre. Make sure to send you. She does a great podcast called Cha with her and an astrologist named Laura.

[Sahara Clement]

Okay.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

And they are liberatory practicing artists. Very dope.

[Sahara Clement]

I love it.

[Tracy Thomas]

Are there things you wish were different about your reading life?

[Mahogany L. Brown]

I wish I was paid to read.

[Tracy Thomas]

It's a lot of.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

If I was just paid to read, I wouldn't be rushing around.

[Sahara Clement]

That's what you think as a person who's paid to read. I am always rushing around. I never. It's not.

[Tracy Thomas]

I. I barely get to read.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

How is this possible?

[Tracy Thomas]

So much of my life is everything

[Sahara Clement]

else that I have to do.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

I mean, you are raising two humans. That's a lot of work.

[Tracy Thomas]

They get in the way.

[Sahara Clement]

A lot of my reading, asking questions, talking about food, talking to me. I'm like, don't you see I'm trying to read? No, they're talking to me about Pokemon. I'm like, shut up. I hate Pokemon.

[Tracy Thomas]

Sorry.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Yeah. I wish I had more time. I wish there was just like a dedicated time to read for the world. Yeah, that'd be nice.

[Sahara Clement]

Yeah, that would be really nice.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

I tried to work in an art practice time.

[Sahara Clement]

Oh.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Which I'm holding on for dear life that one day a week.

[Tracy Thomas]

What kind of art?

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Writing.

[Sahara Clement]

Writing.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

I'm not really good with my hands.

[Tracy Thomas]

Me neither.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

I can't do collaging. And when people do that, I'm amazed. My vision board looks crazy.

[Tracy Thomas]

You, vision board? I do not. Vision board.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Yeah. I do one at the top of the year just to remind myself what I'm focused on.

[Tracy Thomas]

That's so good. I write a list, a goals list.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

That's nice.

[Tracy Thomas]

I don't have the visual arts.

[Sahara Clement]

Not.

[Tracy Thomas]

That's not something that I have. And similar to you, if I'm not

[Sahara Clement]

good at something, I'm quick to be

[Tracy Thomas]

like, okay, gotta go.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Not for me.

[Tracy Thomas]

Not gonna do it.

[Sahara Clement]

Not gonna spend time on that.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

No, that could be the athlete in us.

[Tracy Thomas]

It's true.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Cuz there's some natural instincts.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes. Like people always say, like, oh, are you gonna write a book? And I'm like, no, I hate writing and I'm not good at it. And I spend all day reading other people who are good, great at it. Why would I throw my hat into the ring knowing I'm not even gonna touch the hem? You know, Like, I'm just, like, I'm not even close. I would never put myself out there

[Sahara Clement]

in that way knowing that I suck at this thing compared to everyone else. Like, I just as much as you

[Mahogany L. Brown]

read, I doubt you suck. Let's start there.

[Sahara Clement]

Well, I have two high standards.

[Tracy Thomas]

I'm too much of a perfectionist. I'd never finish anything if I tried to write something, which I don't want to do because I actually despise writing. I. It would, I would. No. Okay.

[Sahara Clement]

Do you want to hear a funny story? I'll tell you. This is about me again, but I'll tell you a funny story.

[Tracy Thomas]

So had my kids parent teacher conference and the teacher was like, you know, they're smart, whatever. He's smart, he's doing great. But you know, I've noticed this funny thing, like we do this thing where we like tell a story, but to come up with a story, but to tell a story. We tell it to like our group. And then, you know, the kid will tell it to me, the teacher, and then they're supposed to sit down and write the story and your kid will tell the story, and then he'll tell the same exact story to me. So I know he's really thought out the story, but then when it comes to write it down, he just writes sharks the end.

[Sahara Clement]

And I was like, oh, so what

[Tracy Thomas]

you're telling me is that that's my kid because that's me. I could talk for 50 minutes.

[Sahara Clement]

And then when you're like, okay, write it down, I'm like, we talked about dogs. Thank You. I'm like this. Maybe this is like hereditary that, like, we are a. We are a people of the talking. We are not a people of the writing in the talk.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

We are a grio people.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes. Yes, we are.

[Sahara Clement]

It is giving oral historians.

[Tracy Thomas]

Listen to me.

[Sahara Clement]

I just started laughing at her. I was like, I'm so sorry. But like this, I was like, this is literally my job and I hate writing.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Right. He said he got it. Honest.

[Sahara Clement]

Yeah, well, we're gonna have to work. We'll work on it. But just know this just might be there, might be shorter, might be a lot of haikus. That's what I used to do. We had to write poems in school. I would only write a haikus.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Yo. You was slick with it. Good to know.

[Sahara Clement]

Nice little sneak. Okay, wait. We are running out of time. But I gotta give you the last few.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Okay? Okay.

[Tracy Thomas]

Ideal reading setup. Location, snacks and beverages, time of day, accoutrement.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

All of that I love. My ideal reading setting is beach cabana.

[Sahara Clement]

Okay.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

The ocean. I can smell it. The heat of the sun. I can feel it. I only have on a bathing suit, but I have enough shade where I can read.

[Sahara Clement]

Yes.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Antan.

[Sahara Clement]

Okay.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

I love the sun.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oh, I hate this.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

The accoutrement. Oh. Pina coladas.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

My. My cup is never empty.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Snacks and snacks. Jalapeno kettle chips.

[Sahara Clement]

Okay.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

A nice little chicken tender.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Lightly breaded. Lemon pepper. Yum, yum. Of course, a proper fry.

[Sahara Clement]

Yes.

[Tracy Thomas]

And a ranch ketchup. Okay.

[Sahara Clement]

Caesar salad and french fries.

[Tracy Thomas]

My favorite, ranch. Thank you.

[Sahara Clement]

A blessing.

[Tracy Thomas]

For sure. For sure. For sure.

[Sahara Clement]

I love this. We could definitely hang out.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

We're gonna be fed. And red.

[Sahara Clement]

And red.

[Tracy Thomas]

Though.

[Sahara Clement]

I will be fully in the cabana with a long sleeve shirt on. I do not like to be in the sun. No.

[Tracy Thomas]

What?

[Sahara Clement]

I do not like the way my skin feels after being in the sun. It's like that tight, kind of like.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Yes.

[Tracy Thomas]

I hate that.

[Sahara Clement]

So much so I.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Even with sunscreen.

[Tracy Thomas]

I wear sunscreen all the time. Constantly. 50 SPS. 50 every day?

[Sahara Clement]

Yes.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

I mean, you are in California. You should.

[Tracy Thomas]

I, I. I do. I am tear.

[Sahara Clement]

I do not do any skin routine except for sunscreen. Every day. That's it.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Got it. Well, that's why you look 22.

[Sahara Clement]

Well, so everything else is a lie. I don't. I've never done anything else.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay. What's the last book that made you laugh?

[Mahogany L. Brown]

The last book that made me laugh. Little Rot.

[Tracy Thomas]

I love that book. Last book that made you cry.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

I haven't cried since Salvage the bones.

[Sahara Clement]

Okay.

[Tracy Thomas]

Last book that made you angry.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Well, that made me angry because I didn't like it. If I'm thinking of, like, the emotions that were invoked were on purpose. The most visceral memory I have is Push by Sapphire. That made me. That pissed me off. I threw them across the room.

[Tracy Thomas]

Is there any book that you feel embarrassed for never having read?

[Mahogany L. Brown]

I haven't read any Joan Didion.

[Sahara Clement]

Okay.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Isn't there, like, a. Yes. Book she has?

[Sahara Clement]

She.

[Tracy Thomas]

Hers is the Year of Magical Thinking.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Year of Magical Thinking.

[Tracy Thomas]

And it's incredible.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Talk about it all the time.

[Tracy Thomas]

It's really good, actually. You should read it. You're kind of in your grief season a little bit right now.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

I'm gonna order it.

[Sahara Clement]

I. I did love that book.

[Tracy Thomas]

I read it years ago. I like Joan Didion, but I don't. I. I don't go hard for her.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

I read her essays and articles, but I've never read a book by her.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah, I. I mean, the Year of Magical Thinking is. It is pretty good. Is there a book. Do you have a problematic favorite book?

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Iceberg Slim.

[Sahara Clement]

Okay.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

That was a good book.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

He was a visceral writer.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Be more careful. Urban lit. Love it.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yeah.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Lived it. So to read it was like, yeah, yeah, we were there. Do I return to them now? No, because it's kind of like returning to, like, season three of a. Perry Episodic.

[Sahara Clement]

Right, right, right.

[Tracy Thomas]

If you were a high school teacher, what is one book you would assign to your students?

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Maya Angelou's I Know why the Caged Bird Sings.

[Tracy Thomas]

I've never read that.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

It's a good one, especially good for young people because it's real life stuff happening in the book.

[Sahara Clement]

Yeah.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

But it also centers the child in these, like, really painful situations. Yeah, but to know that she survived it and became so much. I think that is extremely helpful for young people who are constantly surviving and they don't have real life numbers for who gets out, who makes it.

[Tracy Thomas]

Right, right, right. I haven't asked this question in such a long time. I used to ask it every week at the beginning of the show, but for some reason, you're making me really want to ask this one. Which is, who would you want to write the book of your life? And you can't say yourself. It's not a memoir.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Yeah. Imani Perry.

[Sahara Clement]

Can't go wrong. Oh.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Or Kimon Felix.

[Tracy Thomas]

Those are two totally different books.

[Sahara Clement]

And I can see. I can see, like, the different. The different most.

[Tracy Thomas]

I love it. Oh. I love.

[Sahara Clement]

Again, two past guests of the Show. I can't wait to read both the Imani Perry and Kimon Felix Mahogany Brown story.

[Tracy Thomas]

Okay, last one. If you could require the current president of the United States to read one book, what would it be?

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Probably a banned book.

[Sahara Clement]

Yeah.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Roots by Alex Haley.

[Tracy Thomas]

I've still never read Roots, though I

[Sahara Clement]

have seen the movie. No 700 times. I need to read it.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

You must.

[Sahara Clement]

I have a copy here.

[Tracy Thomas]

I have my parents copy.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Oh, you got the OG copy?

[Sahara Clement]

Oh, gee.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

I got my grandmother's copy.

[Sahara Clement]

Yeah, my. My dad made us watch that so many times.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

That's why you didn't read it?

[Sahara Clement]

I just never thought I had to read it. I'm like, I could do the whole movie. I could do from the first moment, I could recite the whole thing.

[Tracy Thomas]

We gotta go.

[Sahara Clement]

But everybody, Mahogany L. Brown will be back on Wednesday, April 29th, for our book club discussion of Room Swept Home

[Tracy Thomas]

by Ramika Bingham Risher. The book. You get. Get your copy now.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Hurry up.

[Sahara Clement]

You can get it.

[Tracy Thomas]

Read with us. We're gonna do poems. I know you're scared.

[Sahara Clement]

Don't be scared. Don't be scared.

[Tracy Thomas]

We've got the great Mahogany L. Brown to help us.

[Sahara Clement]

So I mean, if you are scared, it's fine.

[Tracy Thomas]

I'm also scared, but it's fine. It's fine.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Don't worry about notice and wonder together.

[Tracy Thomas]

Notice and wonder together. Thank you so much for being here. I adore you.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Thank you. Tracy, I just gotta say, you're one of the best things that Oakland, California has produced.

[Sahara Clement]

Oh, my God, don't say that. We come from a place that has produced Ryan Coogler, the Black Panthers.

[Tracy Thomas]

Oakland has produced. I think Oakland is over producing greatness in the water. Right?

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Oakland is.

[Tracy Thomas]

We are. There are two places in the world

[Sahara Clement]

that are over producing greatness to me at this moment. One is Oakland and the other is the country of Puerto Rico. Ooh, Puerto Rico is overproducing for their size. They are it. There are so many great Puerto Ricans. Same with Oaklanders, yo.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

Despite our conditions.

[Tracy Thomas]

Yes.

[Sahara Clement]

Because of.

[Tracy Thomas]

It's such a great place to be from.

[Sahara Clement]

I obsessed with you. Thank you. So you're actually the second Oakland guest this year for book club. Because Jasmine Guillory, also a great Oaklander.

[Mahogany L. Brown]

So I'm in the club, yo.

[Sahara Clement]

Hell yeah. Hell yeah. We. Oh, we gotta, you know, we stick together.

[Tracy Thomas]

All right, everybody, we will see you in the stacks. Thank you all for listening. And thank you again to Mahogany L. Brown for joining the show. And a special thank you to Tisha Philiat. For making this episode possible. Our book club pick for April is Room Swept Home by Ramika Bingham Risher, and we'll be discussing the book with Mahogany on Wednesday, April 29. If you love the Stacks and you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com thestacks to join the Stacks Pack and check out my newsletter@tracy thomas.substack.com make sure you're subscribed to the Stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts, and if you're listening through Apple Podcasts or Spotify, please leave us a rating and and a review. For more from the Stacks, follow us on social media, Hestax Pod, on Instagram, Threads and YouTube, and check out our [e-mail] this episode of the Stacks was edited by Christian Duenas with production assistance from Sahara Clement. Additional support was provided by Sheree Marquez, and our theme music is from Tagirijis. The Stax is created and produced by me, Tracy Thomas.