The Stacks Podcast: Ep. 419 “I Don’t Want You to Know Where I’m Going”

Guest: Patrick Radden Keefe
Host: Traci Thomas
Date: April 8, 2026

Episode Overview

This episode of The Stacks features an in-depth conversation between host Traci Thomas and acclaimed journalist/author Patrick Radden Keefe about his new nonfiction book, London Falling: A Mysterious Death in a Gilded City and a Family Search for Truth. The discussion explores the book’s origins, narrative structure, investigative process, questions of ethics, and themes of grief, reinvention, and contemporary London. Keefe also reflects on his craft, the relationship with his subjects, and how he approached this more intimate story after previous sweeping works like Say Nothing and Empire of Pain.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

Introducing “London Falling”

• Book Summary (02:54):
  • True story centered on Zach Brettler, a 19-year-old Londoner who died under mysterious circumstances in 2019 after falling from a luxury apartment.
  • After his death, his parents Matthew and Rochelle discover Zach had a secret double life, including posing as the son of a Russian oligarch under the name “Zach Ismailov.”
  • The book follows his parents’ quest to uncover both the truth about his death and “who he really was in life.”
  • Themes: loss, mystery, family, and an exploration of modern London.

How Stories Find Keefe

• How True Stories Are Pitched to Him (05:27):
  • “I don’t know that I’ve ever gotten a cold email from a stranger with a story that I ended up doing... The ones that often take hold are situations like what it was with this book where I was out in the world and just started a conversation with a stranger.”
  • The story of London Falling came from an unexpected encounter on the set of the Say Nothing TV adaptation, emphasizing serendipity over formal pitches.

Deciding Magazine Story vs. Book (08:03)

• Not every magazine feature has book potential; only four times in his 20-year New Yorker career has he expanded a piece into a book.
  • The turning point with London Falling was the depth and complexity of the people involved—their layered backstories were too rich for a single article.
  • Example: Zach’s family history (both grandfathers were Holocaust survivors) didn’t make it into the article but is deeply explored in the book.

Structuring Narrative Complexity (11:28)

• Keefe describes his process for assembling “disparate threads” and maintaining narrative surprise.
  • He avoids predictable braided narratives, instead structuring meticulously to keep readers guessing.
  • Big structural decisions are mapped and re-mapped before writing.
  • “The last thing I want is for you to see where I’m going... I love the experience of feeling like the writer has all the cards and they’re dealing them out to me in exactly the right order.” (12:51)

Scale Shift: From Opioid Crisis & The Troubles to a Family Mystery (16:25)

• Keefe discusses his conscious pivot to a more intimate, even “smaller” story after Say Nothing and Empire of Pain:
  • “The best thing I can do is follow my own attention span and my own passions... if something feels like a kind of compulsion because I’m so passionate about it… I feel like I’m usually able to transmit that sense of excitement to readers.”
  • He values writing about people, not just “big” issues; families (like the Sacklers, or the Brettlers), and found the invitation from the Brettler family uniquely galvanizing.

Investigating Recent vs. Historical Events (19:54)

• Writing about a very recent tragedy (2019) was new.
• “There are moments in this story... part of this, partially, this is story about Russian oligarchs in London. And at a certain point, Russia invades Ukraine… Not long after Zach’s death, Covid hits. And so you have this kind of strange feeling of isolation for the parents...”
• The recency brought immediacy, but also allowed for interviewing subjects who were just “a phone call away.” (21:49)

Navigating Ethics and Intimacy with Subjects

• Author-Subject Relationship & “Family Secrets” (23:45):
  • “There are family secrets... those were things that I think initially they really didn’t want in the book.”
  • Keefe is clear with subjects: “When you see this story... it’s not gonna be like looking at a photo, it’s gonna be like looking at a painting.” (00:38, reiterated at 24:40)
  • He balanced compassion with journalistic duty, aiming for honesty and transparency; some information was off the record unless permission was obtained.

Safety, Underworld Interviews, and Reporting Risks (32:37)

• Keefe describes meeting with former and current criminals, including an encounter where a gangster demonstrates knowledge of Keefe’s family, as a subtle assertion of power.
• “I try to be very, very careful. I do have a wife who I talk with all the time about these types of questions, you know, these questions of risk management... I don’t do, like, war reporting. There are certain things that I won’t do.” (35:49)
• Living in New York (rather than London) offers some protective distance.

Thematic Deep-Dive: Reinvention, Grief, and Family History (38:40)

• The family’s Holocaust legacy influenced both Zach’s capacity for reinvention and his parents’ approach to grief.
• “A city, a big kind of global city like London, is a stage for reinvention. Families and individuals are always kind of reinventing themselves... and in the grandest sense, the book is also about London’s reinvention as a city.” (39:18)
• Personal story: attending what would have been Zach’s 25th birthday, moving from suffering to celebration, and how the family drew on the resilience of prior generations to cope.
• “If I had a loss like this… I could only hope that I would grieve in the way that they’re grieving, where you get out of bed each morning and you’re still able to find joy.” (42:34)

Book Craft: Titles and Writing Process (44:37, 47:27)

• Original title was The Oligarch’s Son; London Falling was chosen (Clash allusion, themes of “fall”).
• Post-Covid, Keefe now works in a dedicated home office, mapping out threads with sticky notes and outlines (“murder wall”).
• Discussion of process and the evolving feeling of publishing after prior successes.

Reception & Audience Expectations (49:06)

• Keefe acknowledges the higher expectations after Say Nothing, but still writes for “literary pleasure”—not just information.
• He pushes back against the “nutritional content” approach to nonfiction, desiring emotional and artistic engagement:
  • “The whole point is it is supposed to be a kind of literary pleasure, right?... Don’t even bother with my stuff if what you’re looking for is the kind of 10 bullet points.” (53:05)
• London Falling is “more like a novel than anything I’ve ever done,” and he’s curious how both established and new readers will respond.

Reflections on True Crime, Grief, and Legacy

• The book starts as true crime, transitions to an exploration of grief and family.
• Both Keefe and Thomas express excitement and uncertainty about how readers will receive such a genre-bending narrative.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Character and Narrative Voice:

  • “[W]hen you see this story about yourself and your life, it’s not going to be like looking at a photo. It’s gonna be like looking at a painting. It’s all filtered through my kind of sensory apparatus, the way I perceive you.” – Patrick Radden Keefe (00:38, 24:40)

• On Narrative Structure:

  • “The last thing I want is for you to see where I’m going... I love the experience of feeling like the writer has all the cards and they’re dealing them out to me in exactly the right order.” – Patrick Radden Keefe (12:51)

• On Shift in Scale:

  • “I just have to wait and find a subject that feels like it’s kind of grabbed me by my lapels.” – Patrick Radden Keefe (17:13)

• On Parental Grief:

  • “If I had a loss like this… I could only hope that I would grieve in the way that they’re grieving, where you get out of bed each morning and you’re still able to find joy.” (42:34)

• On Reporting Risks:

  • “He wasn’t threatening me at all in a kind of overt way. But... his first move was to tell me, I’ve done my homework on you. I know the name of your wife. I know the name of your sons. That’s the way these guys operate...” (34:14)

• On Writing About the Living (and the Dead):

  • “I feel enormous compassion for them. And yet I’m not their lawyer, and I’m not their shrink, and I’m not their rabbi, and I’m not their PR person. My chief duty is to the truth and to my readers.” (24:55)

• On Audience and Literary Value:

  • “If what you want is to suck out all the nutrients and the kind of informational content, just go somewhere else… The whole point is it is supposed to be a kind of literary pleasure, right?” (53:05)

• On Who Should Read the Book:

  • “I think I’d want it to be Zach, the kid at the heart of it … I spent so much time thinking about this kid, and I developed a fondness for him.” (57:44)

Timestamps for Major Segments

• Introduction & Book Overview: 00:00 – 04:27
• How Stories Come to Keefe / Meeting the Brettlers: 05:27 – 07:55
• From Magazine Story to Book: 08:03 – 10:10
• Narrative Structure and Reader Engagement: 11:28 – 15:12
• Scale/Scope of this Book vs. Previous Works: 16:25 – 19:54
• Writing About the Recent Past: 19:54 – 22:57
• Ethics & Intimate Nonfiction: 23:45 – 28:14
• Reporting Dangers and Living at a Distance: 32:37 – 36:47
• On Coincidences and Narrative Framing: 37:04 – 38:40
• Holocaust Legacy & Family Resilience: 38:40 – 44:25
• Title Process & Workspace: 44:37 – 48:05
• Publishing, Reader Expectations, and Literary Value: 49:06 – 56:47
• True Crime, Grief, and Uncertain Reception: 54:28 – 57:35
• Who Should Read the Book?: 57:44 – 58:45

Tone and Language

The conversation is literary, thoughtful, direct, and occasionally wry. Both Traci and Patrick are candid about process, emotional complexity, and uncertainty regarding critical and public reception. Keefe is especially conscious about the lines between empathy and objectivity, and about prioritizing storytelling craft.

Summary Takeaway

This episode of The Stacks is essential listening for anyone interested in true crime, literary nonfiction, writing craft, or the ethics of telling real people’s stories. Patrick Radden Keefe’s London Falling is both a gripping mystery and a meditation on loss, reinvention, and the meaning of truth in storytelling. The episode is as much about how to write about real lives—with honesty and narrative suspense—as it is about the specifics of the Brettler case. As Keefe himself says, he doesn’t want you to know where he’s going—and in both this episode and his new book, that makes for a compelling journey.