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- [00:00]
A
As you all know, the Stacks just celebrated its birthday last month and I cannot thank you all enough for supporting this independent podcast for the last eight years. We truly could not do it without you. My plan is to continue to bring you many more years of great reads, author interviews, behind the scenes looks in the book world and pop culture gossip. But I can only do that with your support. So giving us a listen every week goes a long way. And if you want to go that extra mile, consider. Consider supporting the Stacks on Patreon and Substack. I will say May is also the month that kicks off summer around here. I believe in the longest possible summer. That's Memorial Day to September 22nd for those who are wondering and summer ushers in the era of the summer Reading Guide. My non fiction reading guide is coming in May for all of you who are paid subscribers on Patreon or Substack. So that's just a perk to keep in mind in addition to everything else we've got going on like book club meetups, our Discord conversation, bonus episodes, my weekly show and tell over on Substack. Making this podcast takes a village, as they say. And you're part of our village when you support through Patreon and Substack so that me and my amazing team can continue doing what we do best, which is bringing this podcast to you every single week. So if you or your friends are looking to meet other book lovers, support an independent podcast, come hang out with me@patreon.com the stacks on Patreon and subscribe to my newsletter at Tracy Thomas substack. Com. I would love to have you.
- [01:40]
B
I think about how easy it is to be overwhelmed by what's happening in the world right now. And it's so much easier for me to think, okay, you know, what I want to do is just sort of turn on the scroll feature in my brain. I then have to remember not only do I have all these feelings, but so does everyone. I think we have this impression that nobody else cares or sees what we see, but that's actually completely not the case. When you talk one on one to people, you realize, oh, everybody feels this way or everybody is going through a loss or a grief or a great joy, you know.
- [02:29]
A
Welcome to the Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host, Tracy Thomas and today I am joined by award winning poet Ada Limone. Ada served as the 24th Poet Laureate of the United States. She was recognized as a 2024 Time magazine woman of the Year and was a finalist for the National Book Award. We're here today to talk about her brand new book, Against Breaking on the Power of Poetry, which is a speech ada delivered in April 2025 that explores the profound ability of poetry to heal, inspire, connect, and remind us of our shared humanity. Today, Ada and I talk about what surprised her during her tenure as the Poet Laureate. The ways that poems can connect us to our own feelings and the feelings of others. And why it's important that we engage with poetry even if we think we don't get it. Our book club pick for April is Room Swept Home by Remica Bingham Risher. We will be discussing that book on Wednesday, April 29 with Mahogany L. Brown. Everything we talk about on each episode of the Stacks is linked in our show notes. And if you like this podcast, if you want more bookish content and community, consider joining the Stacks Pack on Patreon and subscribing to my newsletter Unstacked on Substack. These are both places where you can get awesome bonus content like Episodes and access to our discord. And honestly, it's not that complicated. You know what Patreon and Substack are about? They are about supporting the creators that you love, making it possible for us to do this work every single week. So if you like the show, head to patreon.com the stacks to join the stacks pack and or head to my newsletter on Substack at Tracy Thomas Substack. All right, now it is time for my conversation with Ada Limon. Okay, everybody, it is April. It is poetry month. And did you think we were going to do a poetry month where we didn't get to talk to everyone's favorite poet? Ada Limone, you'd be crazy if you thought that. I am so honored to have her here with us today to talk about her brand new book called Against Breaking on the Power of Poetry. Ada, welcome to the Stacks.
- [04:38]
B
Hey, it's great to be here and it's really nice to see you again.
- [04:41]
A
I know. I'm so happy we got the pleasure of meeting in Texas at the Texas Book Festival where you were being honored. And instantly I was like, oh, I get. I get the Ada Limon hype because all of my favorite poets talk about you when they come on this podcast. And then the moment I met you, I was like, sure, this makes a lot of sense to me. So I'm so glad to have you. Why don't you tell the people what this book is?
- [05:10]
B
Yes. Against Breaking on the Power of Poetry is a book that is essentially the expanded version of the final talk that I gave during my final event at the Library of Congress. And I was serving as the Poet Laureate for three years. And really you only have two obligations. And one of the first obligations is to do a public reading, which I had done in September of 2022. And the last obligation is to do a closing lecture. And so this book is the expanded version of, of the closing lecture that I gave in April of 2025 as my closing lecture as the 24th Poet Laureate of the United States.
- [06:00]
A
Okay, before we get to what's in the book, you, you briefly, in the introduction talk about this moment of getting this phone call and your friend's like, oh, you're going to get this, like, video call. You know, maybe do your hair or whatever, which I love as a person who never does anything for video anymore. Is being the Poet Laureate something that you had wanted? Is that something that's even like on someone's bucket list? Or is this just a thing that kind of like happens to you?
- [06:29]
B
I mean, I think as poets there is this idea that if you are very lucky and you have a long, storied, brilliant career, you may be asked at some point in your 70s or 80s. I was not, it was not something that I was hoping for, not something that I was. That was on my radar. If I thought about the Poet Laureate, I usually thought of more of our elder generational poets that I admire and love and who have been mentors. So I think that was part of the shock, was that it wasn't something I was expecting to do ever. And then, you know, if, if I was asked, I had. It certainly didn't expect to be, to be asked in my 40s.
- [07:21]
A
Okay, so then I guess that begs the follow up question. Where does one go as a, as a youthful poet laureate? Like, what is, what does that mean for you? Because if it's something that people do in their 70s and 80s, it sort of sounds like it's like a swan song. It's like, I'm the Poet Laureate and then I kind of just tuck away from. But you've. I feel like, I hope I'm not speaking for you. I feel like you've got a lot of life to live and you probably have a lot of things you want to do. So what do you, what, what does that mean for you now?
- [07:49]
B
Well, the great thing about it is there have been people that have been mentors to me that have served as younger poets laureate, and including people like Tracy K. Smith and Natasha Trethewey. So I think about that a great deal, what they have gone on to do and the work that they have created. So for me, one of the gifts about serving is that you give yourself wholeheartedly into the project of service, to start thinking about what it is to give a bit of yourself to others, to the wider effort of literacy, the wider effort of poetry, to think larger and beyond yourself and your own artistic makings. And now, as I am still somewhat untangling from that incredible but very, very public position, I'm returning to myself as an artist. And I think that's been really beautiful. I'm still doing a lot of speaking and of course, releasing books. But the best thing for me right now is to really take a moment of reflection and to remember what it is to make poems and to remember what it is to be a real, living, feeling, thinking person moving through this world without necessarily the expectations that come with a larger public position.
- [09:20]
A
What does that look like for you, like, on more like a day to day level? Are there routines or rituals that you've like tapped back into? Are there things, things that you're doing to help you get back to yourself as an artist?
- [09:34]
B
Yeah, I think that's a great question. In fact, I just came back from traveling yesterday and one of the big things for me is to get back to nature. As you know, I'm a huge nature lover. In fact, I will be completely indulgent and tell you that I woke up early and I actually went bird watching for a good two hours before we even met together on this podcast. So I. I think that's a big part of it is letting myself observe and look and get a little lost and just not always be making something or not always be putting something out, but also resting, receiving, refueling. And that's an equal. That's very important to me, I should say, as an artist, is to make sure that I have moments of real receiving that I'm taking in the world, as opposed to always in being interested in the transformation or the output, if you will.
- [10:41]
A
Yeah, yeah, okay. I think that's actually a perfect way to get into the book, the speech, because one of the things that I found really interesting is throughout the speech, you reference different poets, things that you think about. You know, you have a section early on where you talk about when I'm thinking about starting something, I think about this poem. And when I'm thinking about finishing something, I'm thinking about this poem. And you know, in this moment I think about this poet. And one of the things you Say, is that you're in. The reader and the writer of poetry are then sort of linked in these ways, right. That you're connected through. Through the reading of someone else's poem. So I would love for you to talk a little bit more about that, because that's sort of what it sounds like. The receiving that you're talking about is like receiving the work of others, receiving the offerings of others. And so I'd just love for you to say more.
- [11:33]
B
Well, I love that you brought that up, because I feel like it's very attuned to what you do in your work, which is that moment of recognizing what's important. Right. That. That when we read something, it goes into our bloodstream, it goes into our life, and if it really matters to us, it stays there. It changes us. Our chemistry is different afterwards. Our minds are different afterwards. And one of the things I love about your work is that you are constantly talking about what an impact a book can have on you. And I think that this. This book that I've made is really about celebrating that, but doing it as individual poems. I think oftentimes we think about the literary investment being the novel or the book or the nonfiction or, you know, something that's quite large. But for poets, you know, they travel. Our poems travel one poem at a time. And so you can read one poem and be quite moved by it, and that goes into your whole body and changes you. And so when I'm in my receiving place and I'm reading, I'm deeply moved by certain lines, and if I'm really lucky, my brain retains them and holds onto them, and they become part of me for the rest of my life. I take them wherever I go. And that's something that I feel really lucky to have in my life. And I know that some people think about that when they think of prayers or they think about that when they think about lyrics to songs or music. And poetry is like that for me, that I'm able to keep it in me and allow myself to be changed by it.
- [13:23]
A
I love that you're saying this, because I do feel like poets are really good at remembering poems. Like when Tiana Clark came on the show last year, the whole episode is just her saying, like, oh, and then when Jericho Brown said this, and then reciting, like, eight lines of a poem, I'm like, how does she remember all of this? But I guess it must be something that's like, in the heart of a poet. Poet, you are like. Like in the same way that the musician will be like, oh, that was in the key of F. And I'm just like, how do you know that?
- [13:53]
B
That's exactly right. And how a musician might remember all of the lyrics to a song that's not theirs, Right. But that music influenced them or those lyrics influenced them. And so that's very much how we are, is that they stick with us because we embody them. And then they become part of not only our life, but also our work and the work that we make.
- [14:20]
A
And in this sort of it becoming part of you and becoming part of the work that you make, there's sort of this invitation then to the reader which is like. Because I think so, I guess. Let me backtrack. In the book, in the beginning, you sort of talk about how as you're the poet laureate, you're going around the country, you're meeting people and people are saying things to you. Some people are like, oh, I love poetry. I read poems all the time. Some people are like, oh, I secretly write poems. Some people, there's a story about someone's grandfather who had all these poems and he like left the poems for each of the children when he died. Like that. There are all these different ways that people are relating to poetry. And so I guess my first question there is like, did that surprise you?
- [15:03]
B
You know, it did surprise me, and it was such a gift because I think that I had the mistaken idea that I was supposed to go into the world and tell people about poetry, you know, in this public position. And then everyone just came up to me and said, let me tell you about my poems, or let me tell you about my poetry group or the reading group or the women's group that meets every Tuesday and we share a poem or. And you know, I found it so thrilling because, I mean, let me tell you, I just recently went on a bird watching trip with the beautiful writer Amy Tan. And there was a group of us that went to go see the sandhill crane migration in Kearney, Nebraska. And the sandhill Crane migration is 500,000 birds that are migrating. And it's one of the largest avian migrations in, I think, in the world that you can witness. And it's really moving. And here I was on the final day of being able to see the sandhill cranes before we left, and one of our guides came up and said, I heard you were a poet. I just said, oh yeah, I'm a poet. And she said, I'm a poet too. And the first poem I ever got published was about watching the sandhill cranes and. And Here she was, this nature guide who comes down from Alaska to volunteer so that she's able to not only witness again this migration, but help people witness it themselves. And then here she was in this bird blind as the sun comes up. And what were we talking about? We were talking about poems. And so I feel like many people think, oh, it's an art form that no one does anymore. But I feel as if wherever I go, someone's coming up to me and sharing their stories about poems that they read, poems that they love, or poems that they're making.
- [17:04]
A
Yeah. Why do you think that we think that nobody's doing poems? Like, what's the disconnect if everyone's doing poems? Why is the line that, like, nobody's doing poems?
- [17:15]
B
I think that it's really difficult to measure. I think when we talk about reading and the reading studies that have come out, which are pretty brutal, which shows that Americans are not reading, and yet I just think that we read one poem at a time. Sometimes we read them on the subway, sometimes we read them on Instagram, sometimes we read them on social media platforms and blog posts, and they're not. You can't measure them. And so I think that that's part of that misnomer. I also think that there is. There's a lot of people that write poems that are secret poets, and they don't want to tell people about it, and it's what they do to heal. You know, I think that sometimes there are people that feel very seriously connected to poetry and in a very authentic academic way, maybe hold up the expert craft element of making a poem, which is beautiful and useful. But I think that we can't lose sight of the fact that a poem that is just to heal your heart or to get you through the day, even if it's writing in your journal or putting it in your, you know, in the drawer in your desk, never to be seen again. That's still a useful thing, but it's still something that can help you. I mean, don't you think we need all the tools we can possibly have right now to get through this chaos of this moment?
- [18:57]
A
Yes. I want to get to these tools because you talk about it in the book. But before we do, I'm going to just share with you. I think maybe we talked about this in person, but I'm going to share with you my relationship to poetry because it has been years in the making. So when I first started the show, I did not read poems very much at all. You know, I was a theater Major. So we had to do a poem for voice and speech class. And everyone got assigned all these, like, very fancy poems. And I was assigned the Owl and the Pussycat. So I was a little bit offended that my teacher gave me this, like, silly poem. It was great, and I did a great job. I got an A in that case class. But I've always sort of been a little like, whatever about poetry. And in 2020, I believe I posted my, like, best books of the year, and there were no poetry collections in my 10 best. And Reginald Dwayne Betts sent me a message and was like, you should read poems. And I was like, I'm going to be honest with you. I don't know how to do that. I don't know poems. I don't understand poems. And to get on a microphone publicly and sound like an idiot is not necessarily something that I want to. To do. Like, I. I have done it. I do it a lot, but it's like, not intentional. And he was like, I will come on the show and we will do a poetry collection. And I said, you know what? That sounds great. So that was in 2021, and we did Jericho Brown's the Tradition. And I didn't understand not a single poem, but we did it. And Reginald was great. And I said, you know what? Every year we're going to do poetry in April for Poetry Month. Like, that's when people are thinking about poetry. And I made friendships with some great poets. And every person told me, if you just like one or two poems in a collection, that collection is a success. And that was very hard for me to understand. And in almost every episode, maybe until last year, I would preface it with, like, I don't know anything about poems. I don't understand poetry, whatever. But as I started to read more poetry, as I started to think, think about poems more, I'm realizing that a lot of this was poetry was ruined for me before I even got a chance to really read it in school. Like, I was. I. I think it was Nate Marshall who was like, tracy, you know, poems are not math equations. And I was like, no, I didn't know that. Actually. I thought there was an answer. I thought there was something that I was supposed to get out of a poem and if I didn't get. Get it, that I had failed as a reader. And so I think one of the things that I now my relationship to poetry is I am a person who has like seven or eight poems on my phone just saved that I love that I go and read like I read Ellen Bass's the Thing Is at least once a week, I love about poem. I love it so much. I love it so much. And then I finally read her collection Mules of Love. Is that what it's called? Mm. It's incredible. I love every poem. I love that collection. But it started with me reading the Thing is at least 20 times on my phone over the course of like half of a year before I actually got the collection and read it and loved it. And so all of this is to say that I feel like it's true that it's hard to measure how people are reading poems, but I also think fundamentally people who do not feel the call to read poems, who feel like the pressure to read poems, we've been done a disservice previously in our relationship to poetry like that. We have, we have been told or felt like we've been told that there's a right way to poem and it's not true.
- [22:33]
B
It's not true. It's not true. And as much as I love collections of poetry, I love individual books. I always tell people, if you are new to poetry, poetry in general, you should probably start with anthologies so that you can skip around and read a poem that you like. And if you. Or read a poem you don't like and skip it, you know, I always say that if you're driving in your car and you are listening to the radio and you don't like a song, you turn the channel. It doesn't mean that you don't like music.
- [23:08]
A
Right, right.
- [23:09]
B
Like you are going to dislike some poetry like that is that is the other part I think that people are concerned about is that they think I didn't like that one poem by Robert Frost. So I don't like poetry. We assume one thing is the whole thing. And poetry is as different as songs are individual songs. And so you might love one poem by one artist and then you might not like the other poem by the same artist. Right. So I think it's. That's important. Yeah, Go ahead, please.
- [23:42]
A
My follow up question is then for me, when I don't like a poem, I assume that I didn't get it. Whereas when I don't like a book or I don't like music, I feel like I have the vocabulary to say why I didn't like this book because I felt like the character development was not there, it was really flat. Or I didn't like this song because her voice sounded bad, like she didn't have the range, whatever it is. But with Poems. If it's like, this is Robert Frost, I'm like, oh, well, it's Robert Frost. It must be me. So how do people develop the skill to feel confident enough to not like something and know that, like, it's just a taste thing and not to feel like they're a failure?
- [24:27]
B
Well, sometimes it is just a taste thing, and sometimes that's okay. And there are some times also there where you may not get it. I mean, I think that for years I was really put off by John Ashbery. I thought that was a poet that I would not. I had no interest in reading. It seemed unnecessary, come unnecessarily complex. It felt like it was purposely obfuscating the point. And then as I aged and developed as a human being and as a poet, I really took my time and read his work, and then I fell in love with it. So I think there are poems that you may not like at certain moments in your life, and they might not mean something for you at that time. There are also poems that we're speeding through because we may think, you know what? I want to read a poem. And then we're going to read it really fast and we're okay. It didn't do anything for me. But then you might be sitting somewhere and someone goes, oh, you don't like that poem? And you go, oh, you know, it never did anything to me. And then they go, let me read it to you. And then you go, oh. And then they read it to you and you go, oh. And then you go home and you read it aloud and you go, oh. Because that's the other thing. Poetry is really meant to be out loud. And so you absorb it with the music. And sometimes. And I once heard Arthur Z. Our current poet laureate, talk about this, which was that he was writing these beautiful lyric poems, and he was reading them at the Dodge Poetry Festival. And he said, if you don't know what's happening and you're looking for a story to hold onto, and you're looking for something to grasp, he's like, I just want you to think of this as music. I want you to listen to it and let your mind wander and let the images wash over you and. And the music of the poems wash over you. But don't keep trying to grasp onto something as if you are reading it like a paragraph or hearing it like a paragraph. So a lot of times it's just releasing and you're starting to listen to the ideas of your own self, your own body, and how it responds to the Poem. So I think that a lot of times, if we dislike a poem, it might be at that moment in time, it's not the poem we're supposed to read. It might be that it is too difficult for us and that it needs to be read aloud and then read aloud again and then read aloud again. And by the fourth reading, you think, how did I ever live without this poem? You know, so it's. I think it's. You know, I just. I want to grant every new reader of poetry to just love one poem for a little while. And then you might look up that poet and go, who do they like? And then you think, oh, okay, maybe I'll read that other poem. And then you think, oh, maybe not this one. And then you'll find one and go, oh, yeah, this is a good one. You know, And I think that. I think that it can be difficult when we feel as if we are. We have to like every poem that was ever written by anyone in order to call ourselves poetry fans. You can like one poem and be a fan of poetry, Right?
- [27:49]
A
Right. Okay. I want to ask you one more thing about reading poems out loud. I like to get a lot of poets on the record with this one.
- [27:57]
B
Yeah.
- [27:59]
A
What is your relationship to the end of the line and to the punctuation? And how do you navigate that when you're reading a poem out loud?
- [28:07]
B
Yeah. I used to not read the line breaks when I was first starting out as a poet in graduate school. I thought the point was to read, to pay more attention to the punctuation and to the period. And then I was taught really brilliantly by many different mentors, including Colleen McElroy and Mark Doughty and Marie Howe. And there was a moment when I realized that the unit of poetry is really first the sound and then the word and then the clause and then the line, then the sentence. And so I notice the line break and I try not to pause in a really strong way. But there's a slight moment where anything could happen, and I hold that. I hold that in me. So it's like, oh, I don't know where it's going.
- [29:12]
A
Yes.
- [29:12]
B
Thank you. And this is the surprise of the line break.
- [29:15]
A
I knew I liked you because you agree with me. I studied Shakespeare, and I love Shakespeare. The line is so important in Shakespeare. More important than the punctuation, oftentimes, or at least equally important. And so when I started reading poetry on this show, and I was always, like, trying to acknowledge the line ending because it's like, otherwise, why is it. It There, Right. Why would you end? Especially if you're not working within, like, a very intense structure. Right. Like, it makes sense if you're doing iamic pentameter, that you might have to kind of make it fit. But if you're just writing a poem, it's like, well, why would there be a line ending if it didn't mean something? And so many poets, even when they read their own poems, they ignore the line ending. And I'm so fascinated by this. And when I started asking poets about this, some of them were like, yeah, no, I don't. I don't. And I. Doesn't make sense in my brain. I'm like, if it's a line ending, I'm gonna do something. And I tell people all the time, it doesn't mean you stop sometimes. It just means you just. Like, you just. Yeah, like you said, notice it.
- [30:16]
B
We know it's there. Yeah, it's there.
- [30:19]
A
You can't make it not there. So you have to at least reckon with it when you're reading it out loud.
- [30:25]
B
And the way I write my poems, I'm very interested in line breaks. They do mean something to me. There is a slight acknowledgement because that's the tension. You know, poetry really exists in the tension between the line break and the sentence. And I also was raised on Shakespeare. I was also a theater major. You know, this. And so Shakespeare was really the first poet I got to know. Yeah. And so those. That's exactly the same way. And if you think about iambic pentameter is that's speech. So it's meant to read like speech. And so when you are then making a smaller, shorter line, that's a more, you know, internal line. And that allows for more space, more breath, more pauses. And it tends to be a little more meditative and quiet. And then when you have a longer line than Shakespeare and you go, you know, further, then it's more public, it's more chatty, it moves much faster. And so the length of the line is actually supposed to give us the speed of how we're reading it. And so iambic pentameter is supposed to mimic speech, which is how Shakespeare wrote almost everything, Right?
- [31:46]
A
Exactly. And I feel like just when I'm reading poems, like, you know, sometimes you'll have a poem and it'll be shaped interesting on the page like a pyramid or, you know, you know, someone will do something. The words will be spread out all across. And I'm always reading those, trying to figure out, you know, maybe there's not A right answer. But I'm trying to make meaning of that choice. Especially if I'm reading someone's collection and there's 50 poems and there's only one poem that's in the shape of a pyramid. I'm thinking like this. The pyramid's gotta mean something.
- [32:16]
B
It does.
- [32:17]
A
And I think, like, for me, that's always really fun as I'm reading poetry, because even if I don't like the poem or even if I'm not really even paying attention to the poem, I'm paying attention to it in different ways. And I think that's really exciting. And so I do get frustrated when a poet's like, oh, I don't think about that. I'm like, what do you mean? I've been spending 45 minutes on this pyramid poem.
- [32:38]
B
I totally agree. And I think there are times where poets will say, you know, oh, that's not how I'm working. Or that's not how what my intention was, which is totally fair. Right. We should listen to the artists and listen to what they have to offer. And for reading and spending time with their work, our efforts in that endeavor should also be taken into consideration. And one of the things I find fascinating is that critics of poetry, and I mean criticism in the best way, the scholars of poetry, we're thinking about the tradition of poetry and where all poetry comes from, and that it's in conversation with all other poets. And so a poet might say, oh, that's not how line breaks work for me. But that is how line breaks work.
- [33:35]
A
Correct.
- [33:36]
B
So they may not see that.
- [33:38]
A
Right, right.
- [33:39]
B
Even when they're making it, they may not see that it's similar to if you say a musician that says, oh, I was never thinking about Joanie Mitchell when I wrote this, you know, really highly lyrical song with a lot of musical notes in one bar, et cetera, et cetera. But we may know that is the influence.
- [34:04]
A
Yes, yes.
- [34:05]
B
Of music on this artist. So I think that's how. That's how I would think of it. Yeah.
- [34:12]
A
Right. Okay, let's take a quick break and then I want to talk about the tools that we teased earlier here on the stacks. I have talked to countless debut authors who spent years dreaming of the day they'd finally see their books out in the world. All that was left was finding a publisher to bring their stories to life. If you're finding yourself in the same boat, I'd like to introduce you to Ingram Spark. IngramSpark is an award winning publishing platform that provides everything you need to successfully self publish your book. It costs nothing to sign up and upload your book, and with free publishing tools and resources, you can focus on what you do best. Writing your story while IngramSpark makes it possible to share with the world. When you self publish with IngramSpark, you are automatically plugged into one of the publishing industry's largest global book distribution networks, giving you access to over 45,000 retailers, including independent bookstores and libraries ready to bring your story to life? Get 15% off your first order of 15 or more books using code STACKS15. This offer expires at the end of the year, so get started today. All right y', all, Spring is here and as you know, this year I've sort of made being comfy and cozy my mission. And Cozy Earth has just upped my game because they have reminded me that I can actually bring the cozy comfort of my home out into the world. I just got a pair of their Cozy Earth clogs and they have become my all day hangout. Kick it shoes. I just slip them on in the morning. I'm set for everything I have to do, whether it's morning drop offs with the minis walking back and forth between the garage where my office is and the house doing some quick errands. It's just like a basic every day I need to throw on a pair of shoes. These clogs are it. Also, try them out. If you don't like them, that's fine because Cozy Earth backs everything with 100 night trial because they're confident that you'll love them. And I just told you you're going to love them so you know you're going to love them. Plus, your purchase is backed by a 10 year warranty that protects against damage for an entire decade. That's called commitment to quality. I love them. This spring, give yourself the kind of comfort that lives with you all day, not just the moment you get home. Head to cozy earth.com and use my code the stacks for an exclusive 20% off your purchase. And if you see a post purchase survey, be sure to mention that you heard about Cozy Earth right here on the stacks. True comfort lives here. Starting your own business can be a little intimidating. Trust me, when I first started this podcast, I had to figure it all out on my own. From designing brand assets to scheduling episodes to managing social media, it was way more overwhelming than I originally had expected. That's why it helps to have a tool that can simplify all the tasks you do so you can focus on, you know, the fun stuff for Millions of businesses around the world. That tool is Shopify. Shopify makes starting your own business effortless, offering hundreds of ready to use templates to build your brand identity. AI tools help you to write, copy and enhance images. Built in marketing tools to create bespoke email and social media campaigns, and so much more. The best part is you can manage all your tasks in one place, making your life easier and your business operations way smoother. No need for multiple websites and platforms. Shopify does it all. Start your business today with the industry's best business partner, Shopify and start hearing. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com the stacks go to shopify.com the stacks that's shopify.com the stacks. Okay, we are back. I want to talk about the tools because as you go into your speech, you sort of start at this place of, you know, poems are everywhere. And then there's this moment where you sort of are like, you know, I gotta be honest, sometimes I don't want to read poems and I don't want to write poems because I don't want to feel. And that's sort of the first moment where you really bring this idea of feeling as sort of what poems for you are about. I feel or like what the center of the poem is doing, whether you like it or not, that poems are about feeling something from another person, that the poet has offered this to you and as the reader, you in turn are. Are to feel something. And as we continue in the collection, you sort of talk about how poetry, that this ability to feel is important right now, that it is useful right now. Will you talk about that?
- [39:02]
B
Yeah. Well, first of all, thank you for bringing that up. I think about it a lot because I know myself. Turns out it's the only real person I know is just myself. But I think a great deal about how easy it is to be overwhelmed by what's happening in the world right now. You know, careening from one crisis to another, feeling this sense of chaos, feeling the sense of an untetheredness to the world. And it's so much easier for me to think, okay, you know, what I want to do is just sort of turn on the scroll feature in my brain and just go and scroll things through things. Look at, you know, social media and just sort of numb out, not feel anything, don't even stop on anything, right? Just go, okay, next, next, next, next, next, next, next. And I understand that, you know, that's not that dissimilar to wanting to drink, you know, a Bottle of wine or, you know, wanting to. Wanting to. To feed oneself into oblivion. All those things. I have all those feelings sometimes, which is, how do I stop myself from. From feeling. And yet, and yet, in order to gather courage, in order to be brave and go into the world and to face this moment, which I believe we are all in some ways meant to be here at this moment, I then have to remember that not only am I a feeling person, not only do I have all these feelings, but so does everyone. And I think sometimes when we are numbing out, we have this impression that nobody else cares or sees what we see or is going through what we're going through. But that's actually completely not the case. When you talk one on one to people, when you read, you realize, oh, everybody feels this way, or everybody is going through a loss or a grief or a great joy, you know, And I think that that's very easily forgotten these days because we numb out to protect ourselves, which is completely. It's not unusual. It's how we in some ways stay safe. And you know, poetry is not always the safe place. Poetry is often meant to. To ignite us and turn us on to the world and wake us up and just remember that we are living beings and at some point, all of us, no matter who we are, will eventually die and we will lose everything we love. And that loss that is inevitable is a huge part of. Of appreciating this world.
- [42:11]
A
In, in the book, you talk about this poem about, like, praising. It's called Try to Praise the Mutilated World. And, and it was. You were reading it after September 11th on the subway in the New Yorker. And you say, you just imagine that everybody else was reading it too, which I love. But what you say about the poem, I'm just going to read this a little bit. It says it wasn't just the poem itself or the instructions and it insisted upon, but the way it reminded me that language had power and it could have power for good. We need a secular, sacred language, something that is galvanizing without certainty, that gathers us without gathering under one ruler, but under the connection that we all have to the human spirit, to each other, to the earth. I love this.
- [43:01]
B
Thank you.
- [43:02]
A
This, this little bit to me felt like, aha, the thesis of the thing. Like this really felt like the heart of the speech, that we need this language, that we need poetry because it is doing something, it is offering something that maybe, perhaps prose cannot. And you get at this. At the end of the speech, you say, like, I'm Writing in prose, but I need to be writing in poetry. Like, you're like. It's like that. I was thinking of it as far as, like the theater, like a play versus a musical. They say, like when things get really heightened in a musical, that's when the singing starts. Right. And I was thinking about that as like, poetry is the, like, jacked up on feeling, steroid version of prose. Like, prose intense. But I want to. I guess what I want to know is, like, what is it about poetry that you feel like, can galvanize us? What is it about this use of the language versus prose? Because I think so many people would say they're more comfortable with prose. So why do you think poetry can unlock this for us?
- [44:13]
B
Yeah, I mean, I think it's. Honestly, it's in the music. I think that there is a music and a rhythm. And I mean, every poem is different, but poetry can do this, which is tap into that musicality that feels like human breath, that it feels like we have to lean into it to listen to it. Yet it could feel incantatory. It can feel as if suddenly there is not just a sense making, which prose is focused on a sense making. Right. We're supposed to. We're reading for meaning. But there is an emotional impact that there is an unlocking of feeling. And I think that's the key to poetry, is that you are supposed to open up. There's a reason why when you go to poetry readings, people cry. You know, I go to poetry, I cry at poetry readings all the time. And I think that it's sometimes, sometimes not at what was supposed to be a sad poem. Sometimes it's the beautiful poem, the one that just says something so good and you think, yeah, okay. Human kindness. Human kindness, yes. I missed it. I've been missing it. And then you hear it, you hear a poem and you go, yeah. Oh, I needed to be reminded of that. And so it is that idea of not just sense making, but the idea of unlocking our feelings and reminding us that we live in the feelings as well. And I think that there's so many of us that think in order to get out of a moment, whatever it may be, in order to untangle us from the mess we've made as humankind, we have to engage our. Solely our intellect. And the poet's job is to engage the intellect. Yes, but it's also to engage the heart. It's to engage the soul. And in that sense, I find it could be more unifying when everyone's in a room listening To a poem, there's something that shifts, that feels different than prose. And you know, I read often and there are times where I'm talking about the poem or I'm talking, telling a story or something, and then I read the poem. And those two events for me feel entirely different. When I'm reading the audience, there is one that feels like conversation. It's welcoming. We're in a moment and then the poem happens. And the happening of the poem feels as if we've entered a musicality of the heart and that is entirely different than the prose. Run.
- [47:15]
A
That's so interesting. I don't know that I feel that when I listen to a poem, but I also feel like I have so many other things around poetry, like so many insecurities that it like gets in the way of me being open to the feeling. Do you know what I mean?
- [47:32]
B
I do, I do. I had, Let me tell you this story. I had this one when I was serving as poet laureate. I had this one woman said, I'm so sorry I missed your whole poem about the raincoat poem. She said, you know the one that. Where your mom is driving you to an appointment and you know, she's trying to. She said, I just missed the ending because I started thinking about my mom and how my mom used to take me to these lessons to help me with my speech therapy. And she never said anything. And she would just take me to the. And she would sit outside the room to make sure I felt safe and I would do my speech therapy. And you know, this woman's telling me this whole thing. She's like, so I'm so sorry because I didn't get the poem and I missed it. And I kept thinking, no, that's exactly what that poem was supposed to do. You just had such an authentic experience with a poem which is that you got three lines in and your brain and your heart made you time travel. It unearthed a memory like, that's magical. That to me is the best kind of success, is that someone was moved to re. Experience something in their own lives because of three lines that they think they missed, but in reality it entered them back into the world.
- [49:06]
A
Okay, this is making me think of something else. In today's day and age where we have these like, issues with poetry, let's just say some of us, and where the poet is not like the. I feel like in the olden days the poet was like, oh, the well regarded poet. And now I feel like people are like, oh, I. I secretly write poems like it doesn't have the same regard as maybe it once did. I feel like poets, and maybe this is. And professional poets, people who are pub. I should say public poets, people who write poetry and want to talk about it, as opposed to the Secret poet, are so generous with their readers or listeners. You know, like what you're saying, you're telling the story and you're like, no, you got it. Like, that is what the poem is supposed to do. I'm wondering, do you think this is something that is inherent in today's modern day poet or is this something you've had to learn? Like this graciousness with the consumer of the poetry? Because I think of like people who write fiction and someone will be like, oh, I. This is what I got. And they'll be like, no. And it's just like a very like, no, that's not right. You did not get that. Like in a way that can be. Or like sometimes, you know, someone will put a review on Goodreads and then the author will come back and be like, well, that's not what I was doing. Or whatever. And I've never heard a poet say that in the years I've been doing this. Usually a poet's like, I love that you got that. Or that's so interesting. I wasn't thinking of that. But that's such a. Like, so do you think that's just the poet spirit or do you think that's something you all have learned? Because people are just like, you're just like, please think about poems. I don't care what you get out of it. Just like, think about poems.
- [50:45]
B
Yeah. I do think there is part of us that feels like if you've taken a moment to read anything, we're gracious about it and grateful for it. But I don't think that's everyone. I think there's a lot of really wonderful poets that, that are interested in writing for other poets. And I think that's a. Also a beautiful thing. Right? You know, that's like the, the incredibly talented jazz musician who wants to write or wants to make music for the other incredibly talented jazz musicians in the room.
- [51:20]
A
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
- [51:20]
B
And they are talking to each other and it's a gift that we get to witness it. Right?
- [51:26]
A
Yes, yes, yes. Okay, okay.
- [51:27]
B
And they're not going to look at us and be like, oh, let me spoon feed you this. Right? Like this. So I think there are some poets that are like.
- [51:33]
A
Like that.
- [51:33]
B
And I think there was. There's a part of me that feels that way sometimes, which is Just like, you know, if you don't get it, that's fine. You don't, don't read it, you know. But I also feel like very early on, I, I, I wanted to be a poet that wrote for non poets.
- [51:49]
A
Right.
- [51:49]
B
I, I always have been. I, you know, I have a. My life is full of non poets, as most people's lives are. And I would, I think I would feel sad if I only wrote for other poets. And I love other poets. And my favorite thing is to have a cocktail and sit around at a poetry table and just nerd out about line breaks and what we're reading and all of these things, and to talk about the great poets of the past, all those things. But that is not every day for me. Every day for me is spent with people who struggle with poetry. And, you know, I, for me, it's important to, to offer a way in, you know.
- [52:38]
A
Yeah.
- [52:39]
B
Someone once said, you know, I don't like poetry, but I really like your poetry. And I said something like, well, I'll be your gateway drug. You know?
- [52:46]
A
That's so true. I guess that's true. Also, even my question is, like, so biased because all the poetry that I read and all the poems that I've talked about and all the poets that I know are poets who, I think are deeply concerned with poetry for non poets and, like, experiment of like, or not experiment, but this, like, effort to bring us in. Like, I'm thinking of, like, Jose Olivares, like, I think he would say that he is interested in poems for non poets. And I think, you know his work. And so I think maybe that's also why these are the poets that I feel like are so generous with me and with others, because they're like, the fact that you're here is a affirmation of the work that I do.
- [53:25]
B
I think that's exactly right. And I think that there are a lot of people and really wonderful poets who that is, that's not their endeavor. And that's a beautiful thing, too. And I think that we need, all of us.
- [53:40]
A
Yes, I agree. I'm now realizing, as you're saying this, of course, I would never read a poem by a poet for other poets because.
- [53:46]
B
And they might not. Come on.
- [53:48]
A
And they don't want me. Yeah, exactly. They don't want me, and I don't want them. Maybe one day I'll get there. We read Toni Morrison every year, and this is now. We just finished our ninth Toni Morrison novel for the show. And now I'm like, oh, even the hard Ones I feel like I'm getting it. But in the beginning I was like, there's no way I can read. Like Beloved. I can barely get through sula. Like I am struggling. And so I do feel like, you know, the more that I read poetry, the more confident I feel and the more likely that I could maybe dip my toe into the poets for poets community. But I feel so much better in the poems for the, for the regular world.
- [54:28]
B
Yeah. And I think that, that there are poets and I hope they always exist. I hope they always exist, you know.
- [54:33]
A
Yes.
- [54:34]
B
That are the, are the welcomers, you know, that stand there and say, come on in, come on. It's not scary. It's not scary.
- [54:41]
A
You know, you guys don't ever leave us.
- [54:43]
B
Yeah. And then, you know, and then there are the poets that are like, no, this is scary and it should be scary. And you know, Toni Morrison's actually a perfect example of that, of the work that when you read it and spend time in it and then do it again, you think, oh, oh, it might have taken the third reading.
- [55:03]
A
Yes.
- [55:03]
B
You know, I remember that experience with her when I first read, when I was first reading her, like in high school. I thought, I'm never gonna, I'm never gonna get this. And, and you know, she's of course is one of my favorite all time writers. Right, right.
- [55:18]
A
That's how I feel too. I was so intimidated. And it is, it has been a similar journey for me as with reading poetry of just like, okay, I didn't get that. Like I'm not gonna spend an hour berating myself because I'm confused about who this person is. I'm just gonna keep going, keep going. When I get to the end, I can reflect and I can always go back and like. And I do feel like that kind of genera, like generosity with oneself itself is a really useful tool to sort of cultivate when reading Toni Morrison or James Baldwin or poetry or even like watching a movie, you know. Like, I think a lot of this stuff and I just, I don't know. For some reason I feel like I'm just so much more kind to myself in all other forms of reading and art consuming than I am with poetry. And then like going to the art museum, I. That's even harder for me than poetry. That's the one where I'm like, I don't get it. I hate it here. Like, I gotta go, I gotta get out of this room.
- [56:10]
B
Yeah. And people, people know themselves. Right. You know, the thing that you kind of feel as if you don't belong there.
- [56:17]
A
Right.
- [56:17]
B
And I think that there's a lot of people who feel that way about the visual arts. You know, sometimes they're like, I like a photograph. I don't like a painting, or, you know, I mean.
- [56:27]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [56:27]
B
That to me is. I find that really interesting. And, yeah, I think we should have those discussions because to me, I'm like, oh, that's interesting. So you don't. What is it about the photograph but not the painting of the. I don't know. That's fascinating. So to me, it's an interesting conversation starter. And I think for some people, they really feel as if they've. Poetry's failed them and. Because they've tried. And I. And I get that. And I get that too. And I think it is. It's okay to not like it. It really is. You know, there are people that don't like music. There are literal people that don't listen to music. You know, so. But I. I, for one, think that the more we expand our minds and have these great conversations and open up to possibilities of poems and the possibilities of different art forms, the better we are as a species. I think it's part of our evolution. And as we focus on the real dangers of artificial intelligence, poetry is so deeply human that. As well as art making is so deeply human that I think, you know, we need to make sure that it. It flourishes and remains and keeps that part of us alive that wants to speak back to the world in a real, authentic way.
- [58:08]
A
And I think. And you talk about this very briefly in the book, and I think you should write a whole book about this, actually is about this, like, confrontation between AI and poetry. And I think it's true for AI and art in general. And I think that in some ways this is like. If we think of it in sort of war language, this battle between the artist and the artificial intelligence is. It's so interesting to think of, like, poets and painters and singers and whatever, as being on the front lines in a certain way. But I do feel like that because, as you say in the book, like, people want to know if I can write a poem. Because writing a poem is so, like, human. So can AI be human? And I just. I thought that was so interesting. Before we get out of here, there's a few questions I have to ask you, which is one, how do you like to write? How many hours a day? How often do you listen to music? Are you in your home? Are you out somewhere else? Are there snacks and beverages? Talk about it?
- [59:12]
B
Well, I love to write at home. And ideally, because I'm a California girl, I like to write outside. For me, I like to have hydration station is what I call it, which is like all the different beverages. Okay, coffee.
- [59:30]
A
What are they?
- [59:31]
B
Black coffee, water. And then kombucha. Usually like a kombucha. And then I like to just have. Sometimes I bring out some books for inspiration, and then I have a journal that I write in every single day. Now, the journal sometimes is. Just. Ends up to be a to do list because it's that kind of day, and I allow that to exist. But it also has my dreams in it. It has the things that I need to do, and then it also has lists of things that I'm interested in. Sometimes it has lists of species of birds I've seen. But so oftentimes, when I do have a moment to sit down and have a concentrated writing time, I turn to the journal and I think, oh, there's all this stuff here that I've been working on. And so it's. Sometimes there's whole lines of poems, sometimes there's whole drafts of poems in there. So I write a lot longhand. And then eventually, as I get my draft together, it goes to the computer for more of an editorial perusal. Yeah, but, yeah, so ideally that's the case. And then, you know, because I'm on the road quite a bit, and I speak at a lot of different universities and. Which is just a joy. And also am lucky enough to have, you know, Against Breaking is actually my. My 11th book in the world. But, you know, I have trained myself to be able to write on planes and in hotel rooms and pretty much anywhere. The big thing for me, I love music. I love it. I love it. I cannot listen to it while writing. I think I'm a mimic and maybe a mimic and a magpie. I look for shiny objects. I constantly. It's all I can hear. And what I am looking for when I'm writing a poem is to somehow unearth my own music, the music that's been moving through me. And I need to hear not only the voice and the voice underneath the voice, but also how it echoes back and that music that it's making. So, no, I can't listen to music that makes sense.
- [61:45]
A
In the book you say you've been to almost every state. What states have you still not been to?
- [61:50]
B
North Dakota, South Dakota and Alaska.
- [61:53]
A
That's it. Just three?
- [61:54]
B
Yeah. But I'm planning. I'm hoping to get to Alaska this year. I got this beautiful Invitation from North Dakota. And I really wish I could have gone, but it was right on the heels of something else, and I physically couldn't swing it. But, no, I would love to go to all three of those places at some point and read poems.
- [62:20]
A
Okay, this is the last thing I want to ask you about in the book. Towards the end, you talk about the poem on the Statue of Liberty. You talk about these public poems and how the lines in that poem we all know, or many of us know, or at least some of them. We at least know the. You know, give us our. I mean, I don't know it, but give us our weary. Give us your weary. You know, So I was thinking about that. What are other public poems that we know? Because I was thinking about how public poems and your whole project, the you are here poetry collection, and you went out to these national parks and you put poems in the parks. And I was thinking a lot about how if you are not confronted with a poem in your everyday life, whether that's Instagram or maybe a public poem, you might not. People might not ever think about poems, or they might not ever know how to find a poem because they're not going to buy a collection or they're not going to go to the bookstore or the library. And so I was just thinking, like, what are other poems that we know from just, like, out in the world?
- [63:15]
B
Yeah. I mean, I think that one of the best examples is in New York City and also in different cities is Poetry in Motion, so that you encounter a poem on a subway written, you know, and that it's in the poster and. Or you have on the bus. And I feel like that's actually really always a wonderful moment where you see something and you think, oh, I'm thinking about something else. And then you read it and you realize you've read it before. And then you go, oh, I really, really love this. I think that's an example of the public encounter with poetry, which is what I was hoping to do with the parks program is so that someone could have that kind of parks experience, but then also read a poem and then think about maybe writing their own response to the natural world. I also think of inaugural poets, you know, I think.
- [64:12]
A
Right.
- [64:12]
B
Oh, sure. Amanda Gorman and Richard Blanco and Elizabeth Alexander and all those wonderful poets that did the incredibly, seriously hard work of creating an occasional poem for a presidential inauguration, which I think is just massively difficult. So that's another example.
- [64:34]
A
If I become president, will you write my inaugural poem? Okay.
- [64:38]
B
Here and now? I will say yes.
- [64:40]
A
Okay, well, if I become president and then you don't do it, I'm going to be so mad. I'm going to be here for it. I became president and then Ada said it was. She wouldn't do it anymore.
- [64:49]
B
Let's. We will shake virtually.
- [64:52]
A
Yes. Okay, deal. Okay. Two more questions. One is for people who love against breaking. What are some other books that you might recommend to them that are in conversation with what you've created?
- [65:03]
B
Oh, yes, there's a new book by Tracy K. Smith called Fearless and it's a little more craft heavy about poetry and. But it's beautiful and brilliant and of course, anything by Tracy K. Smith is just marvelous. I would also say the book Matthew Zapruder, why Poetry A Little Longer and one of the things that I think is really beautiful about that as he goes through and dissects other poems, which is really wonderful. And then I would also say the very small and lovely book called Service Barry by Robin Wall Kimmerer which is about creating a gift economy and taking lessons from nature. So I would say those books, just off the top of my head, I love it.
- [65:51]
A
Okay, last one. If you could have one person dead or alive read the book, who would you want it to be?
- [65:56]
B
Oh, wow. You know, this is just going to be a personal one, which is my teacher and really one of my first mentors, Colleen McElroy, who passed away a couple of years ago in Seattle. I would love for her to read it because she knew me as this young 19 year old, 20 year old who barely knew how to write a poem. And she taught me so much about not just making poems, but how to really appreciate poetry and read it in a way that I had never really thought about before. And so she was my teacher as an undergraduate and I think about her often.
- [66:37]
A
I love that. Thank you so much, Ada. Thank you for being here. Thank you for offering this book to us. And I just, I just love you. Thank you. I can't wait to be president. Yay.
- [66:47]
B
I can't wait to read a poem at your inauguration.
- [66:50]
A
I'm gonna become president just for inauguration day and then I'm gonna be like, you know what? I gotta resign. I got the poem, I'm done. It's too much work. I don't want this job.
- [67:00]
B
No, we need you. You have to stay.
- [67:04]
A
Thank you so much. Thank you.
- [67:06]
B
Thank you. Thank you for all the work you do. And it was such a delight to see you again.
- [67:11]
A
You too. And everyone else, we will see you in the stacks. Thank you all so much for listening and thank you again to Ada Limon. I'd also like to say a huge thank you to Ellie Crowley and Von Fielder for helping to make this episode possible. Our book Club pick for April is Room Swept Home by Remica Bingham Risher, which we will be discussing on Wednesday, April 29 with Mahogany L. Brown. If you love the Stacks, if you want inside access to it, head to patreon.com the stacks to join the stacks pack and subscribe to my newsletter at Tracy thomas.substack.com make sure you're subscribed to the Stacks wherever you listen to your podcasts. And if you're listening through Apple Podcasts or Spotify, we you take a moment to leave us a rating and a review. I know it seems like nothing, but it's actually a great way for new listeners to find the show and understand what they're getting with each episode. For more from the Stacks, follow us on social media at the Stacks pod, on Instagram, Threads and YouTube, and you can always check out our website@the stacks podcast.com this episode of the Stacks was edited by Christian Dus with production assistance from Sahara Clement. Additional support was provided by Sheree Marquez and on Theme music is from Tagirigis. The Stacks is created and produced by me, Tracy Thomas. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try it@progressive.com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states. I just got up there and I was just like oh my God, thank you, thank you. And then I heard someone, anyone please help. He's like Superman being able to carry me off the mountain.
- [69:08]
B
The award winning Tell Me what happened podcast from OnStar is back. New Emergencies, New Heroes Find out what
- [69:15]
A
happens in season six of Tell Me
- [69:17]
B
what Happened out now.