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- [00:00]
A
As you all know, the Stacks just celebrated its birthday last month and I cannot thank you all enough for supporting this independent podcast for the last eight years. We truly could not do it without you. My plan is to continue to bring you many more years of great reads, author interviews, behind the scenes looks in the book world and pop culture gossip. But I can only do that with your support. So giving us a listen every week goes a long way. And if you want to go that extra mile, consider. Consider supporting the Stacks on Patreon and Substack. I will say May is also the month that kicks off summer around here. I believe in the longest possible summer. That's Memorial Day to September 22nd for those who are wondering and summer ushers in the era of the summer Reading Guide. My non fiction reading guide is coming in May for all of you who are paid subscribers on Patreon or Substack. So that's just a perk to keep in mind in addition to everything else we've got going on, like book club meetups, our Discord conversation, bonus episodes, my weekly show and tell over on Substack. Making this podcast takes a village, as they say, and you're part of our village when you support through Patreon and Substack so that me and my amazing team can continue doing what we do best, which is bringing this podcast to you every single week. So if you or your friends are looking to meet other book lovers, support an independent podcast. Come hang out with me at patreon.com the stacks on Patreon and subscribe to my newsletter at Tracy thomas.substack.com I would love to have you.
- [01:40]
B
After that separation and then in going through the divorce, I was like fast drafting purely out of spite and like escape and just like not wanting to be defined by the moment or this experience. And so I wanted something. I wanted to hold on to something. I wanted something that felt like it was mine. And so I actually think like, what felt like it would be almost impossible to write and do and do well. It ended up kind of being that wish fulfillment, like what do I wish I could have had? What do I wish I could have? How do I wish I could have been seen and known and loved it like, reminded me of like what I love about love.
- [02:24]
A
Welcome to the Stacks, a podcast about books and the people who read them. I'm your host Tracey Thomas, and today we are joined by Adrian Thurman to discuss her debut novel, don't tell Me How It Ends. This book follows Kaia harper, a floundering 20 something who's sworn off romance until she's asked to be the first client in her sister's matchmaking business. As she suffers through bad dates and failed matches, she finds herself falling in love with the tow truck guy, Ro Jackson. Today, Adrian and I talk about unlikable women characters and their place in the romance genre, how she came to become a romance writer after years of odd jobs moving around the country, and the ways her own divorce empowered her to write this love story. Our book club pick for April is Room Swept Home by Ramika Bingham Risher, and we will discuss the book with Mahogany Brown on Wednesday, April 29. Everything we talk about on each episode of the Stacks is linked in our show notes. And if you like this podcast, if you want more bookish content and community, consider joining the Stacks Pack on Patreon and subscribing to my newsletter unstacked on Substack. Each place offers different perks. You're going to find a ton of community conversation over on the Patreon and you're going to get a lot of my writing and hot takes and literary trends over on the Substack. Plus, and this part's important now. Your support makes it possible for me to make the Stacks every single week. To join, head to patreon.com the stacks for the Stacks Pack and head to Tracy Thomas substack.com for my newsletter. All right, now it's time for my conversation with Adrian Thurman. All right everybody, I am so excited. I am joined today by debut romance novelist Adrian Thurman. Her brand new book is called don't tell Me How It Ends. It has an unlikable woman as the lead. So you know I'm excited about it. It has a very hunky man who I was also very excited about and it has a lot of other stuff going on which I'm excited to talk about. So before we get to all of that, Adrienne, welcome to the Stacks.
- [04:32]
B
Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here.
- [04:34]
A
I'm so excited. We have to tell people. This is the first time ever, I think in the history of the Stacks that we have had now siblings on this very podcast. You are the sister to Nicole Thurman who only people who have listened to the show for a long time when will remember but Nicole was on in 2019 when we did that horrible like mystery horror book for book club. I'm thinking of ending things. So you guys are now officially like in the Stacks on the Book of World Records. Yeah, yeah, it's like the first time we've ever had siblings, so congratulations to you.
- [05:15]
B
Thank you so much. It's funny because I don't know if you remember, but she told me initially not to listen to her episode. And so, like, for the longest time I didn't. And. And then last night I was like, I have to at least know what was it?
- [05:26]
A
Was it bad?
- [05:27]
B
The only thing that I. The only thing that I was thinking about, like, last night when I was listening to whichever one I heard was just how much, like, life has happened since then. Like, it just, like 2019 was so long ago. So just. Yeah. Being like, wow, like, totally different, like, life, stage and job and everything and it's just like crazy how much time passes, how quickly.
- [05:48]
A
Yeah. Yeah. I never go back and listen because I feel like sometimes it would make me feel weird about, like, time passing. I'm like, it's years. Yeah.
- [05:56]
B
Yeah.
- [05:56]
A
It's like, have it documented every week of my life for eight years is, like, a little bit crazy.
- [06:03]
B
Yeah. You know, it's fun for me to go back, but I don't blame you.
- [06:07]
A
Yeah, I don't. People are like, oh, I went back and listen to this episode. I'm like, oh, hope I didn't say anything embarrassing because I know I was saying dumb shit back then for sure. Because who.
- [06:15]
B
Of course. I mean, so was I. Yeah, I just wasn't doing it into a mic.
- [06:18]
A
Yes, I know this is a mistake for, you know. Well, I'll deal with.
- [06:23]
B
No, I love it. Okay, okay, okay.
- [06:25]
A
Let's talk about your book. Let's talk about your book. Don't tell Me How It Ends. Tell people in like 30 seconds or so what this book is about.
- [06:32]
B
Okay, so don't tell Me How It Ends is a contemporary romance. The story is about Kaia Harper, who is a recent college graduate who's back home for the summer. She is decidedly and very vocally romance and love averse and just not into it. But when her sister decides to start her own matchmaking business, Kaya gets roped in as her first matchmaking client. So the summer that she had expected to be sort of like planning out some practical next steps into her adulthood ends up being, like, a few months of bad dates and failed matches and then one chance encounter with a guy who has her questioning everything she thought she knew and believed about love and ultimately herself.
- [07:19]
A
Okay, you are new to writing books. You've got two kids books. You've got this book. Yes. But you had like a whole life.
- [07:28]
B
Yeah.
- [07:29]
A
Before this. What. What was it that you did what. What was your world and how did you decide? I want to write books. I want to write a romance novel.
- [07:39]
B
So I think it's funny, I, like, been thinking back a lot as I've been, like, dealing with, like, the, like, like, lead up to. To the publication of this novel. And it's funny because, like, when I look back and I think, like, the obvious question for a lot of writers is like, did you always want to be a writer? Did you always know you wanted to write? And I always really enjoyed writing, but when I look back, I never remember feeling like a very creative person. And I don't. I was always like. Like, my oldest sister was the actress, and then my middle sister was the artist. And I was like, the one who was just, like, good at school. And so I was really focused there. And I, like, graduated high school early and I, like, did a postbac for pre med, you know, and I was like, gonna be a doctor. I was sure of it. And then kind of like, as I went through life, things just kind of kept unfolding and kept kind of moving me in different directions. So there were, like, a lot of false starts just in terms of, like, what do I want to do? What do I want to be? And then through that, I ended up meeting a guy as you do, and getting married, and his career had us, like, bouncing from city to city. So for a. For a lot of years, I was just sort of like, along for the ride, which, like, is a terrible thing to think about now in hindsight, but I at the time, it felt like, you know, we were in it together. So. So, yeah, so it wasn't until I had my daughter where I was kind of at that point, just like, working, like, job to job and city to city as we moved around. And then when I had my daughter, I think was the first time that I actually, like, paused long enough to think, like, okay, well, what do I really want to do? Like, long term? What's important to me? What haven't I accessed or, like, seen through? And, you know, if I'm like, sitting here thinking about what's possible for her, it just kind of got me thinking about what might be possible for me. So it was really just like, total happenstance and just like kind of like how life moves you in ways you never saw coming. How.
- [09:38]
A
But how was the thing that you came to writing?
- [09:41]
B
I mean, I always really loved words and writing, but I only ever really did it in school. And so I think that I've always just, like, seen it as like, a very, like, academic thing that was very separate from anything that I would pursue professionally. And so as, like, with my daughter, we were just reading a ton. I was reading picture books to her, you know, all day, all night. And I think it just like, got my head really, like, working. And I was like, I think I could do this because I've always loved, like, you know, like, little snippets of, like, narratives and like, little, like, poems and stuff. And so many of those books are really great, and then some are, like, less great. And so I feel like it was like, a little less daunting to think about tackling that. It just felt like I was like, I could do this. We're always making up songs and we're always, you know, I was kind of doing it anyway, and. And so I just tried. I mean, it was truly as simple as that. There was no real, like, long term plan or real, like, you know, foresight other than just to be like, let me see if I could do it. And so I started writing picture book drafts just like, when she would be napping and stuff. And then I just was like, let me see if I could publish it or place this anywhere. So it was just like, one thing led to the next. But it was never really, like. I never really stopped to think, is it feasible? Is it too daunting? Is it too big? It was just like, one thing led to the next, led to the next. And I just. After I had kind of found a little bit of, like, my groove with picture books, I was like, I wonder if I could write a novel. And that was kind of the beginning of the end.
- [11:18]
A
I love this. I love that you were like, yeah, see, like, let me just try my hand at this.
- [11:22]
B
Yeah.
- [11:22]
A
Why romance?
- [11:24]
B
I have always loved romance. I think, like, so I was the, like, the story, the black girl and the white, you know, Kansas neighborhood high schools, whatever. So I was like, never. I never was invited to a dance. I never had a boyfriend. I never had, like, any of that, like, romance in my own life or like, that, like, main character experience. And so I think that I really just, like, sought it out and, like, loved it in books and movies and shows. And it was just like the, like, ultimate wish fulfillment even. Just like, as a viewer or a reader. And so I just, like, loved it. I mean, I loved it in, like, the messiest ways that you aren't supposed to learn to love love, like 90210, you know, toxic love. And. But I just, like, couldn't get enough. And so as I, like, started to get back into reading because there was a period where I was kind of like. Like, less into reading, but it was just, like, such a perfect gateway back into books that I had kind of, like, fallen off with. And so, yeah, so I just. I mean, I love it. I feel like every story is better with, like, just, like, a little dash of will there, won't they? And so it just felt like a really kind of like, natural progression for me. And they will, by the way. Will they?
- [12:40]
A
Or will they do.
- [12:41]
B
They will.
- [12:42]
A
They always do. It's like they all. It always works out, so.
- [12:45]
B
I know. Good for them.
- [12:46]
A
Yeah. One of the things I really like about the book is Kya is not your typical romance protagonist.
- [12:54]
B
Yeah.
- [12:55]
A
I use the phrase unlikable as complimentary because that's the kind of fiction that I like. I know that, you know, in romance communities, there's lots of debate around a likable, like, unlikable main character. And that's different than, I think, than in other genres. I mean, I think across genres, people do struggle with unlikable women, but I think in romance, it's, like, really. Can be really a thing, especially by black writers, especially when it's a black woman. So I'm curious what it was for you that you wanted to explore with Kya, why you wanted to sort of enter the fray with this sort of, like. I mean, she's not that unlikable. She's just 24 and doesn't.
- [13:45]
B
People don't like her, sure.
- [13:47]
A
But I, like, she's not unlike, like, this. This isn't a spoiler, but she's not unlikable. Like, she's, like, setting cats on fire.
- [13:53]
B
You know, that's what I'm.
- [13:54]
A
She's not even unlikable in the sense that she's, like, cheating or doing. You know, she's not abusive. She just is, like. And, like, yeah, kind of 24 and, like, over it and has a little bit of, like, a shield up around her. She's a little prickly.
- [14:10]
B
Absolutely. And I think that for me, like, I love an unlikable character, too. And I think in romance, especially, where so often we get, like, a different archetype, I was just really excited to, like, have her come in imperfect or flawed or whatever and stay that way and, like, be loved through it without having to have this, like, big, like, I see the light. I am changed. You know, I am better for it. I feel like I just wanted her to feel very real because that's kind of what I always seek out in Any story, romance included. And so, I mean, there's. There's plenty of options to draw from for that, but, like, for me, it felt very natural to. To have a character be just who she was. And I agree she's not unlikable in, like, a problematic way where you're like, she needs to be, like, canceled and cut off and, like, someone take the mic from her.
- [15:00]
A
She's not an asshole.
- [15:01]
B
She's not an asshole. I think what she is is she's just, like, not, like, easy or. Or concerned with, like, you know, her reception. And I feel like there's a lot in romance, specifically. There's so much conversation. You know, it's. It's very often by women, for women. And so I think that there's a lot of conversation about, like, the terms that we're using, the responses that we're having to characters. And I think that there's, like, often a lot of, like, internalized misogyny that we're, like, having to kind of, like, peel back and say, like, okay, well, she rubbed you the wrong way. Why do you think that is? Like, why do you think you had such a strong reaction to her just being at this life stage and being confused and being kind of a mess? And so I think for me, I like any book or story or character that kind of breeds conversation and, like, a reaction, whatever the reaction is. And I think that. I think that it was just really important to see and to write someone who was, like, just loved through the process as she was and wherever she was heading.
- [16:12]
A
Yeah. I think the way that we sort of deal with unlikable characters or whatever is really interesting to me because I. Especially in romance, because I am a person who likes mess, you know?
- [16:27]
B
Me too.
- [16:27]
A
Not in my personal life, but as far as entertainment goes, like, I'm like, oh, the messier the thing, the more likely I am to watch or read or sit with it. And I think part of my problem with romance, and this is such a generalization, is that sometimes in an effort to sort of placate certain audiences, the characters are too clean for me. And I'm like, yes, but dating is messy. Like, yeah. And I find that with a character that is slightly unlikable, like, I'm thinking of a book. I'm thinking of, you made a fool of death with your beauty. Oh, yeah, Pete, we did that for a book club here. And people really struggle with that book. And lots of people told me it wasn't a romance because, yeah, there's different. There's different love interests like, and the main one doesn't. Like, it's like, whatever. I don't want to spoil, but, like, the timeline makes it not a romance. And I was like, I don't buy that. I think it has a lot more to do with people not liking the main or not agreeing, like, not agreeing with her choices. And I don't read books like that. I'm like, I'm not here, like. Like, reality tv. I'm not here to make friends.
- [17:38]
B
I'm not hanging out with Kaya.
- [17:40]
A
I'm not going to Kaya for advice. I would like to watch a person who is not perfect enter the world and do things imperfectly. And I understand that I am not, again, the typical romance reader. But I have found that when I like romance books the most, it's because the female main character is sort of messy or unrefined or chaotic or whatever that is. I'm just like, there are people who want something and go after that, regardless of the people around them. And I'm sort of like, that is entertainment to me. Like, that the best. The things that I love most are, especially stories that center women, are the ones where that's who the main character is. And so I think that has been a thing that's hard for me in romance, because I do think you're right. There's like, this weird misogyny going on of, like, she's got to be perfect to be worthy of love. And again, this is such a generalization. This is an all romance book. Books.
- [18:49]
B
No, it's. I don't even think I'm speaking so much to the books themselves, but, like, the reception of the books and, like, the audience, I think that people have, like, an expectation of a certain arc. I think that a lot of romance readers, and, like, I love them, the romance community is, like, unmatched. It's. I mean, they're so rampant and enthusiastic and, like, really invested. And so a lot of this just comes from that. But I do think that there's, like, an expectation. Expectation that, like, she can be messy, but only this messy and only for this long. And then I need her to kind of, like, get it together, figure it out, go to therapy, do the things that you would actually tell, like, a person in, like, the real world to do. But it. I think, like, that's a fine expectation and it works for some stories. I just wish that there was, like, a little bit more grace for stories that don't necessarily follow that same trajectory. And characters, characters who take a little longer to get there and I think that it's a combination of like the like self inserting that makes people feel like a weird mirror to the character. And they're like, well, I wouldn't do that. That's not me. But it's like, again, that's not how I read. But I understand that there's some of that. But I think that also there's, you know, a lot of times, like when we're crafting these characters, we're pulling from people we know or experience we've seen play out. And it might be like a bunch of mess from a bunch of different people, but it still feels very familiar and maybe a little bit too close sometimes. And then when we're writing a love interest, often we're thinking about who can meet and match and challenge that character. What do they need to have to like, stand up and like deserve the airtime, the screen time. But I think sometimes it ends up like the love interest can be a little bit more of like the fictionalized character who can meet a more familiar, maybe more flawed and more familiar and like real ways character where they're at. And I think that sometimes it's like the familiarity breeds contempt a little bit. You know, it's like, I know her, but I don't like her because. And it's like, I think you should be able to know her, not like her and read the story anyway.
- [20:59]
A
Yeah, I also, I'm just. As I'm listening to you talk, I'm thinking about like. I mean, it feels like something that's like systemic that we don't believe, like women deserve love unless they have lived up to some certain like, checklist. But I'm also thinking so often, and maybe this is just because I'm a black woman. So the majority of romance that I read are written about and are center black women. But I feel like I hear a lot about unlikable main characters when it comes to black romance novels. And I can't speak to white romance novels because I don't read them really. And so I don't really know. But I just, I do think that there's something really racialized and I think that's in. I just think it's, you know, it's curious.
- [21:46]
B
It's curious. I. So Nikki Payne, who's a black romance author, she blurbed this book and so I. She wrote an email after she read it and she was like. We were talking about just like the ways it's like, you know, like a very black experience even in all the ways she was like running into herself and like pushing against herself and like refusing to ask for help. I think that there's a certain like lived experience that can be a little uncomfortable to look at and isn't always like pretty and clean, but is in my opinion, really real, like for better or worse. And I do think that there is, you know, there's, there are so many like huge white romance authors that when you're, when you are doing that side to side comparison, very often you do see like a stark difference in the character archetypes. So it's, it's tough. I feel like I'm always going to want to write a character that feels like layered and real and messy because like, for me, that's why I'm there.
- [22:44]
A
Yeah.
- [22:45]
B
But I, I, you know, it's like everything else, it's just so subjective and it's like different strokes. So I, I'm totally okay to like get the. I couldn't stand her. She was, you know, that's fine. But I do find it very curious. Yeah.
- [23:00]
A
Yeah. And I also feel like for me, not liking the character is like, I'm like, if you can write someone that I actually dislike. Props to you. I, I don't think Kaya is that bad. Like, I think kaya's just like 24.
- [23:14]
B
Yeah.
- [23:14]
A
Like, I kept being like, yeah, no, that tracks.
- [23:16]
B
Like, yeah, it's a summer. It's like a few months. Like, what do you want her to be? Completely changed and healed and, and flawless. But I do think it's. Yeah, I think that there's, there's like an expectation that it's like for the first half of the book, she can be difficult and then we need her
- [23:31]
A
and then she has to like, be better. I think what, speaking of like her being 24, one of the things I was thinking about as I was reading this book is like, at 24, you know, it might be happily for now, you know, guys, like, she just might meet other people. Like, let's be real. Some people get married at 22 and some people get married at 42 and it those years or never or whatever. But it's like the idea that I just, I was thinking a lot about like, what happens to Kaya if this book starts when she's 29. You know, like, what does that look like? And I'm wondering if you thought at all about when and where to place her. How like, if that's even an exercise you think about as a romance writer or if you felt very strongly like I want her to be like, pretty young. Yeah.
- [24:22]
B
I think for me, I like, I think if you look at the, the three women in this book, like there's Kaya and then her older sister and their mother. And I feel like that to me is where I was kind of looking at the whole like arc of a woman's life. And. And it was sort of this idea for me that coming of age never really ends.
- [24:43]
A
Yeah.
- [24:44]
B
And so for her to be as young as she was, I felt like it was. I was able to like reflect on that time, but in a way where I had enough distance from it to like, for me to have grace for Kaya where maybe she can't for herself.
- [25:00]
A
Yeah.
- [25:00]
B
It's funny because there's a lot of reactions to like whether or not you include an epilogue and like what happens next and that, you know, you want to see their happily ever after. But I'm really also of the mind that a happy for now is really sometimes what fits the character and the story and the life stage. And so it's like very much like intentional that she would be young. And also it like leaves space to keep going forward. But also I just feel like it's like an important life stage because I think maybe one of the first times where you're realizing like, okay, I'm not gonna have it figured out in the timeline that I set for myself when I was eight, you know.
- [25:34]
A
Yeah.
- [25:35]
B
And I feel like that's just like a very confrontive period in life. So I thought, I think it was just like right for like conversation, as was true for the other characters as well. Hopefully.
- [25:45]
A
Yeah. Let's take a quick break and then we'll be back here on the stacks. I have talked to countless debut authors who spent years dreaming of the day they'd finally see their books out in the world. All that was left was finding a publisher to bring their stories to life. If you're finding yourself in the same boat, I'd like to introduce you to Ingram Spark. IngramSpark is an award winning publishing platform that provides everything you need to successfully self publish your book. It costs nothing to sign up and upload your book. And with free publishing tools and resources, you can focus on what you do best. Writing your story. While IngramSpark makes it possible to share with the world, when you self publish with IngramSpark, you are automatically plugged into one of the publishing industries largest global book distribution networks, giving you access to over 45,000 retailers, including independent bookstores and libraries, ready to bring your story to life. Get 15% off your first order of 15 or more books using code stacks15 this offer expires at the end of the year, so get started today. Spring is officially here. Mother's Day is on the horizon and I am treating myself this season by ramping up my coziness whether I'm at home or on the go. Lately, Cozy Earth has been my go to for making this happen, always reminding me that I deserve a little softness and a little comfort wherever my chaotic life takes me. From my morning cup of tea and school drop offs to afternoon errands pickups with the minis, you will find me rocking my brand new Cozy Earth jogger set. It's soft enough to lounge in in the house and it's structured and elevated just enough that I don't feel like a total schlub walking around Los Angeles while I'm wearing it. I get to be comfy and cute. It's lightweight, it's breathable, it's high quality, and it definitely is getting softer with every wash. I go ahead, try it for yourself. Cozy earthbox everything with 100 night trial because they're confident you're going to love it and if you don't, you can return it. Simple. Plus, your purchase is backed with a 10 year warranty that protects against damage for an entire decade. 10 years. That's the kind of commitment that tells you everything you need to know about the quality. Head to cozy earth.com and use my code the stacks for an exclusive 20% off your purchase. And if you see a post purchase survey, please be sure to mention you heard about Cozy Earth right here on the Stacks. True Comfort lives here. Starting your own business can be a little intimidating. Trust me, when I first started this podcast, I had to figure it all out on my own. From designing brand assets to scheduling episodes to managing social media. It was way more overwhelming than I originally had expected. That's why it helps to have a tool that can simplify all the tasks you do so you can focus on, you know, the fun stuff. For millions of businesses around the world, that tool is Shopify. Shopify makes starting your own business effortless, offering hundreds of ready to use templates to build your brand identity. AI tools help you to write, copy and enhance images. Built in marketing tools to create bespoke email and social media campaigns, and so much more. The best part is you can manage all your tasks in one place, making your life easier and your business operations way smoother. No need for multiple websites and platforms. Shopify does it all. Start your business today with the industry's best business partner, Shopify and start hearing. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com the stacks. Go to shopify.com the stacks. That's shopify.com the stacks. All right, we're back. I want to ask you a little bit about your life only because you've written about it publicly. I normally wouldn't do that, but I do think it's interesting. You went through a divorce sort of while you were working on this book, and you wrote about it on Substack maybe a few years ago, and it was, like, about writing romance through heartbreak. And so I'm really just curious about that because it does seem like, you know, you're writing these scenes, and it would be like, and then Kya takes a knife out and stabs him in his dick. You know, like, it's just like, some days you're just like, we had mediation today. And then she went to his house and bashed the windows in his car. Because that ain't so. I'm curious about, like, did you start this book before the divorce? Were you writing this during it? How did it change if this was going on during all of that? Were there moments where you were like, maybe this is literary fiction. Maybe this is not a romance. Like, maybe it will fall apart and she'll burn the house down and end up in prison. Who knows? So I'm just sort of curious about all of that.
- [30:31]
B
All. Yes, for all the things. But I think that. So I started writing the book before I had any indication that my marriage was on the rocks or ending. So there was, like, the before times. It was a completely different book, completely different story. I mean, I rewrote it from, like, studs. So after that separation and then in going through the divorce, it was. I was, like, fast drafting purely out of spite and, like, escape and just, like. Like not wanting to be defined by the moment or this experience or, like, I had invested a lot of myself in my marriage and in sort of, like, that identity. So I think that when one thing be, like, gets completely uprooted, you know, you want to be tethered somewhere into something. And so, like, obviously, like, my identity as a mother was really important to me, but it didn't feel like it was, like, you know, completely my own. It's really all kind of give. And so I wanted something. I wanted to hold on to something. I wanted something that felt like it was mine. And so as I started to work on it, I really felt like a. A race against the clock just to see how much I could get done before I fell apart, if that was what was, you know, on the horizon. But then also, I think in writing it and in writing it this way, I could kind of, like, hide in different characters that were having, like, totally different life experiences and then always have the romance to come back to. That was almost like a little bit of a life raft for me to, like, kind of force me fully out of myself and into the character in that moment. And so I actually think, like, what felt like it would be almost impossible to write and do and do. Well, it ended up, again, like, kind of being that wish fulfillment. Like, what do I wish I could have had? What do I wish I could have? How do I wish I could have been seen and known and loved? And how do I wish I could have been messy and flawed and still safe? You know? And so I think that being able to create that for. For the character when I didn't have it for myself, it really felt, like, empowering. But it also really felt like what romance, the genre is kind of good for, which is, like, a safe place to hide. Like, it really is, like, the comfort and the safe landing of a happily ever after. And so it really felt like it was, like, something that turned out not to feel like it was just this, like, spiteful project, but it really was like, it, like, made me. It, like, reminded me of, like, what I love about love, separate from my own story and where it was at in that moment.
- [33:19]
A
Yeah. I mean, you're a better person than me. Because if I were you, in my acknowledgments, there would be a line like. And Bill. Choke. You know? Thank you so much. Hope you choke.
- [33:31]
B
I know, Mom.
- [33:32]
A
Love you. Like, I.
- [33:33]
B
And then you think there was a body. I was really.
- [33:35]
A
I was like, there's gonna be. There's gonna. We need at least one.
- [33:39]
B
But I just didn't want him bound to the work in any way.
- [33:42]
A
Sure.
- [33:43]
B
Like, I would have wanted something or,
- [33:44]
A
like, something that was just like. For those of you who tried to ruin me, oh, my God, look at me now. Here's my book. I'm just waiting to write a book just so that I can write acknowledgments to my enemies, you know, like, that. I don't want to write a book. It'll be two pages, but the acknowledgments will be, like, 75 pages, and it'll be like, anyhow, to my enemies, alphabetically. A, Eric. Yeah. B, Bill. Like, just going.
- [34:10]
B
I know. And honestly, like, is always tempting, and there is still time, because that like the embers of that hatred will just continue to fester.
- [34:20]
A
Yeah.
- [34:21]
B
And.
- [34:21]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [34:21]
B
So, yeah, I mean, you never know what's happening in the future.
- [34:23]
A
But like, for this you have another book though, right? There's an excerpt.
- [34:27]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [34:28]
A
What are the details on that?
- [34:29]
B
Forward with. Well, for like to not spoil the first one, we go forward, it's like a separate standalone spin off with the older sister a few years ahead to just kind of like where. Where they're all at and what's going on for her.
- [34:46]
A
Oh, great, great, great. Yeah. Well, speaking of the sister and yeah, everybody, how do you name your characters?
- [34:54]
B
It depends. Like, so for Kaya, I pulled that from like old baby considerations that I had like enlists for myself to use.
- [35:02]
A
Okay.
- [35:03]
B
Before I had my daughter. And then the Pharaoh, which I'm always like, I wonder if anyone will ever ask about this because it's so funny to me. I had. So I named him in like the first iteration of the book that I started when I was still married and thought that was, you know, going to be the thing. And so I just used the name of a friend that I just always loved his name. I thought it was like, very cool and could be like, like, it's one of those names that like, who you are defines the name rather than like the name defining you. So I just thought it was like kind of cool that he could be all of these different things. Like, the character could just be like very layered and interesting in that way. But what's funny about that name is that then after my husband and I separated, I went out and I hadn't seen this friend in like years and years. And then I saw him and I was like, oh, hey, you know, bro, I like named this character blah, blah. And he was like, yeah, I've actually always wanted to like, talk and like get to know you. And I've always had. So it was like very hilarious because I named the love interest after him with like, no, with like nothing there. It was kind of hilarious. But so, yeah, so it's just like they're pulling from different places of life and then like, if someone's like an older character, I'll pull from like something that feels like more classic or like more timely, depending on how short for anything. Not. I mean, no, no. I'm sure for some people it is. But yeah, I wasn't sure.
- [36:29]
A
I sort of like in my mind as I was reading it, I was like, oh, Rose, short for something, but she's just not telling us. And I sort of Liked that because I was like, that's sort of fun. Like, you know, some people just go by a nickname, and, like, nobody ever says their name, but, like, it is there. And I feel like usually in a book, someone would be like, ro, but my real name's Ro.
- [36:47]
B
Like, mom or something. Yeah.
- [36:49]
A
Like Roman or, you know, whatever. And I was like, oh, I sor. Of love that, like, this could just be a nickname, and there's, like, a whole name, and we just don't even know.
- [36:58]
B
Well, any takeaway a reader comes up with and loves, I'm like, oh, sure. I'm totally taking that from here on out. Like, yeah, I just.
- [37:06]
A
I. I hate when authors, like, tell me everything. Like, when they, like. And she did this because I'm like, I can figure it out. So it sort of felt like a fun little, like, oh, I wonder what his name is.
- [37:16]
B
You're like, I'm like, I'm in the family. Like. Like, we're familiar. It's so hard, though. It's such a hard balance. Like, the telling everything and not tell enough. It's like, ooh, it's hard to know.
- [37:26]
A
How do you know? How do you decide?
- [37:29]
B
Well, I am also someone who doesn't like to, like, have it all handed to me, and I like to be like, you know, if you can't connect these two dots, maybe those dots aren't for you and just keep, you know, go on to the next ones. Yeah.
- [37:39]
A
Yeah.
- [37:40]
B
So it's. It's funny because, like, a lot of it is conversation with your editors and to see if there's, like, kind of a common thread, like, something that's not clicking for multiple people or through multiple passes. And then maybe you're like, okay, like, I'll give. Give a little more here. And then maybe they'll bring up something here that you could consider, but then you just be like, no, I think it's fine. So it's just, like, the editorial conversation, and I feel like it's, for me, like, you know, speaking to how I also write picture books, I am, like, very economical with my words. Like, I like to get in there and just like. So. So, yeah, so I. For story. And then also just for, like, the sound on the page, the way something, like, will hit my ear. I just am, like, very conservative with my words. So do you read your books out loud, stylistically? Oh, yes. Every. Every word. Like, through every draft and dialogue. I don't know how anybody writes it any other way.
- [38:35]
A
Interesting.
- [38:35]
B
Yeah.
- [38:35]
A
Wait, tell us about the picture books, because one came out earlier this year.
- [38:40]
B
Yeah.
- [38:40]
A
One comes out later this year.
- [38:42]
B
Yes. No way. Wash Day is the first picture book, and it is about a little girl trying to escape her, like, weekly wash day routine, which is absolutely My Daughter Forevermore. And that one came out in January. And then the second one that's coming out in August of this year is called the Brunch Shift. And so that is about a little girl who goes to work with her mom at a diner to work the brunch Shift. And, like, throughout the day, they steal, like, little moments of time and just go on these like, quick little, like, imaginative adventures, just the two of them, like, stealing little, like, pockets of. Of fun in just, like, a busy work day. So that one comes out August and then there's another next year, though. I don't. I don't know if we have a release date for that.
- [39:29]
A
Okay, well, yeah, we'll stay.
- [39:31]
B
You know, books, it's like, I'm always. You never know.
- [39:33]
A
Yeah, no, you never know. What about the COVID and the title for this book?
- [39:38]
B
So the titles I struggle with, like, I know some people, it's like, they're like, I had the title before I even wrote a word. That is not me. So I sent over. I'm terrible. Like, I sent over so many just horrible ideas to my agent. And. And then throughout the process with my editors also, I think, like, through, like, very close to the end, we were still like, considering whether or not to change the name.
- [40:00]
A
But what was the name you were thinking?
- [40:03]
B
I feel like the, like, first one, like, years ago was like, not what I signed up for or something like that. I don't know. It was like. I mean, not good stuff stuff. And I think my. My agent came up with this name with this title. And so. Yeah, so that one was her. And then the COVID So the. The COVID was such a process. It was like I am someone who, like, for me, like, I struggle a little bit with, like, traditional romance and rom com covers. I like a bit more of, like, a grittier, like, artistic vibe. Like, I always say I want, like, horror on the outside and romance in the middle.
- [40:46]
A
What's a cover that does that? I'm just curious what you're thinking.
- [40:48]
B
No, I don't know. That's what I'm saying. Okay.
- [40:50]
A
I wasn't sure if you were like, I like these covers.
- [40:53]
B
Yeah, I mean, like, I. When I was sending in Inspo, I sent. I like, I know people have, like, very strong reactions to photographic covers. Weirdly, people don't care for them. I love them. And so that was, like, where I went first. Natasha Cunningham is who did Kennedy Ryan's covers.
- [41:12]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [41:13]
B
And so there's like a. It's like a little bit of, like, mixed media where it's like the photograph and then like, a little bit of. And I love that. I like that too. All of my ideas were promptly nixed.
- [41:24]
A
They were like, you're a debut author, so good luck. Yeah.
- [41:27]
B
They were like, well, what about this? But no, I mean, the artist that they ended up using was someone who does a lot of, like, really cool work. And getting the characters right was, like, kind of a challenge. It was like a ton of back and forth, but. And the pose, it's also hard. I'm like, I'm someone who doesn't even really want characters on the COVID at all.
- [41:49]
A
Yeah.
- [41:50]
B
And so finding, like, the balance of, like, okay, well, Adrian, they're gonna be there, but, like, let's do it in a way that feels like a little bit. It just like, different or like, you know, not as. I don't know, just like. I mean, they're cartoons, but it's like, I just didn't want it to feel too bubble gummy, you know, too. Too happy.
- [42:10]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [42:11]
B
And so. Yeah. So I think just trying to keep it, like, a little less literal. Like, I didn't want them, like, in a scene in that. In that way, like cartoon characters in a scene. So just trying to find something that, like, feels a little bit more like me and a little bit more like the story, but then also works. Works for, like, sales and marketing and all that. So it's like, a lot of. A lot of opinions being thrown around.
- [42:32]
A
I. I mean, I just. I'm fascinated with the romance genre because I also feel like the covers are so specific in the same way that, like, the rules of romance are so specific and what's accepted. And I become really interested in the evolution, like, away from, I guess what they called the clinch cover and like, the photo covers to this new, like, cartoon universe on your cover. I appreciate that they're kissing, so you're like, oh, this is a romance. Sometimes it's like.
- [43:02]
B
And that was like, like, far apart
- [43:05]
A
on the COVID And I'm just like, is this like. Like, this could be about anything or sometimes it's just like a woman in a cartoon.
- [43:14]
B
But I think. I think I always skew a little bit towards, like, women's fiction. So I'm like, always, like, a little bit, like, on the line. But I like that.
- [43:23]
A
I just don't feel like it's clear. It's romance to me. Do you know what I mean?
- [43:27]
B
That's why they do the other thing. Yeah. They want it to be like you're walking up by a table and you just know, like that, like, immediate sort of like, you know.
- [43:35]
A
Yeah.
- [43:35]
B
And also, I feel like it's so different now because they're not even always thinking about walking by the table or walking by the shelf. They're thinking, like, social. Rolling through thumbnail.
- [43:45]
A
Yeah.
- [43:45]
B
Yeah. And so it's like, really, it has to cue it immediately. So it's like, yeah, those trends, like, they work for a reason. And I think that because people put out romance books relatively quickly, like once a year or so, I feel like you can really, like, respond to those trends more quickly than like, another, like a literary, you know, fiction novel would, because it's like a longer process. So you can't really. It's not. It's like, less like, trend forward.
- [44:10]
A
Yeah. But I do think even in the last few years, literary fiction, other types of genre fiction have gotten even more entrenched in the aesthetic of the thing for this reason. It's like someone's scrolling. You want to make sure that you recognize that this book signifies the things that mean thriller or signifies the things that mean literary.
- [44:31]
B
I mean, every element of it is just like, how quickly can you catch and keep someone's attention? Which is.
- [44:37]
A
But what's crazy is, like, it's like everyone's like, don't judge a book by a cover. I'm like, no, you're literally supposed to. The COVID is designed for you to judge it and decide if you want to spend, at a glance, $30 on the book in that moment. Now, that doesn't mean that what's in the book will be as good as if it's a beautiful cover or as bad if it's a cover. But the COVID is there for you to judge a decision. It's designed so hyper. Specifically for that exact reason.
- [45:07]
B
Yeah. I mean, for everything. Like, for food or like a cake. Like, why is a cake pretty? So you want to taste it. Like, it's really. It just is like, like, that is like, if you're shopping and you're just. I mean, you're not going to pick up every book and read the flap copy for every novel, you really are going to just have to be cute. I have the book here, which is why I keep, like, looking off.
- [45:27]
A
I have my two over there. That's why.
- [45:30]
B
But yeah. Yeah, it really is just like, how quickly can we cue you into what you're getting.
- [45:34]
A
Is there anything that's not in the book that you wish was?
- [45:38]
B
I think initially I spent a little bit more time with Kaya before she went home. I always. It's always interesting because, like, especially for romance, you, like, kind of have to, like, hit the ground running and, you know, we want to meet the love interest, we want to, you know, get to that inciting incident. And so I feel like that beginning is always a balance of, like, how much to give and how quick to move. So there were some, like, some moments with her at home that I. Or before she came home that I thought were fun and helped kind of like set an established character. I. Yeah, I feel like if I could maybe add something now, it would be like potentially an epilogue because I feel like people are just like, hungry for it. But for my own, for my. For my own self and like, my own needs, like what I wanted the story to be. I feel like we really got what I wanted in there. So. Yeah.
- [46:36]
A
How do you write? How many hours a day? How often? Music or. No, in the home, out of the home. Snacks, beverage, rituals.
- [46:43]
B
Yeah, I started writing when my daughter was tiny. And so I feel like between writing with a baby and like, those like, nap hours and like before she woke up and after bedtime and then going through, like, writing through a separation, writing through a divorce, like, I've been writing under duress ever as long as I've been writing. And so. So I don't like. I aspire to have, like, a system, you know. Okay, I write at my dining table and I write like, if I. If it's a school day, I'll write like from drop off to pick up. And you know, if it's. If she's with her dad, then I'll just write like, straight through 13 hours a day. So I'm still kind of in that stage where she's like, young enough to. Where it's like really just like. You write where you like how. For as long as you can, when you can, where you can. But that said, I really can't have like, any distractions. And so it has to be like, focused writing time. It can't be like. Like some people will write like, when they're like, on the bleachers at like a, you know, practice or something. I can't do that. I have to, like, go sit in my car and just like, type away like a little creep.
- [47:48]
A
What about snacks and beverages?
- [47:51]
B
Snacks depend on the writing stage. So, like, if I am really in the thick of it, it has to be, like, something I can pop into my mouth with, like, and then be back. My hands can be free again. And then, like, whenever I'm feeling, like, really good, like, it's like basically we're at like a read through stage. Then I can, like, grab like a popsicle or something. And I feel like that's just like me saying, like, I don't even need my hands. But yeah, for the most part, I keep my snacks away from me because I get up and down so many times as I write, and I feel like I, like, need those steps to, like, marinate or play a little bit. And so I like, the. The trips over to the cabinet are like, you know, brainstorming sessions.
- [48:32]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. What's a word you could never spell correctly on the first try?
- [48:38]
B
Well, I spell it correctly because I always say B, E, A beautiful. Every single time I write. Beautiful. Okay. Be a beautiful. I think I, like, learned it that way. And that always sticks. I mean, gosh, honestly, there's so many. Especially, like, as you get deeper into, like, revisions and drafting, your brain just turns to absolute mush. I'm like, how do you spell berry? So, yeah, I would say beautiful. I always have to cheat with my little. With my little sounds, but at a certain point when my brain is just hollow and wrung out, then all of the words.
- [49:07]
A
Yeah. For people who love this book, what else would you recommend to them that's. That's in conversation with what you've done?
- [49:16]
B
I love Bolu Babalola. Do you know her? She's like a British Nigeria honey.
- [49:23]
A
Honey.
- [49:24]
B
Yeah, she's honey and spice and then sweet heat. So. Yes, yes.
- [49:29]
A
Okay. I got. I got something in there.
- [49:31]
B
Yeah. No, it was, like, just perfect, but she is, like, Nigerian and British, and so it's very, like, dialogue heavy and just really smart and quick and witty. I love her. I think her characters are also really real and flawed and messy and super fun. Talia Hibbert I love as well. I think she writes again. I think it's just that, like, sort of like dry humor and wit that I really am kind of, like, always drawn toward.
- [50:01]
A
Yeah.
- [50:02]
B
So I love her as well. Nikki Payne, who I mentioned earlier, she's so smart and, like, her books are always really accessible. Like, you don't feel like you're learning as you're reading. But she has, like, just such great commentary on the world at large and, like, womanhood and blackness and race, and it's like, just. She has a lot to say that's, like, really important. But it's like always wrapped up in these just like, really fun, sexy romances. I'm trying to think there's like always like the big hitters, like, you know, Kennedy and Tia and. And Jasmine. But I feel like a lot of. There's like just. There's. There's so much good stuff. Like, black romance is really just like we are being absolutely fed.
- [50:47]
A
Yeah. It's definitely a moment we're having a. Yeah. In the best way moment for sure. What about when you're writing romance? Can you read romance?
- [50:57]
B
I can read before I start drafting, and then I usually will switch to something else. And so, like, right now I'm working on revisions for book two. And I'm listening not. I can't like, read like with my eyes, but so I'm reading audiobooks of like, thrillers. So it's like, I just. I like to have like, a different flavor. So it feels like it's like two different sides of my brain. And also it just is like a reminder of like. Because there are. There are such, like, discrete rules for the genre and for like, conventions. So it's nice to like, be reminded that you can like, play a little bit or like, break out in. In ways that other genres do.
- [51:33]
A
Yeah.
- [51:34]
B
So. Yeah. So I don't tend to write. To read in the same genre that I'm writing. I just. I don't want it to ever feel, like, too familiar or too close to something else.
- [51:43]
A
Yeah, so many. I've heard that from so many writers of like, when you. They actually are writing, they have hard.
- [51:47]
B
Because it really. It just like, it like gets in your head. So it's like, could be completely unconscious and you're like, wait, that doesn't sound like me. That was Tia or something, you know, so.
- [51:54]
A
Yeah.
- [51:54]
B
Yeah.
- [51:55]
A
I mean, even Jasmine Ward said that she was like, I read romance. She loves Roman. She loves.
- [51:59]
B
Yeah.
- [51:59]
A
And she was like, I'm writing literary fiction. I have to be reading genre fiction.
- [52:05]
B
Yeah, it really is. It's like a palate cleanser in, like, different ways. Like, it's just like the inverse.
- [52:11]
A
Okay, last question. If you could have one person, dead or alive read this book, who would you want it to be?
- [52:19]
B
I think it would be my grandmother. She was a writer and she passed away, like, kind of like right at the start of this process for me. But I don't think I realized until, like, she was very close to the end how formative writing was for her. And I think she similarly, like, to how I was speaking to earlier, kind of wanting something that Was mine. I think she took a lot of pride in it after having, like, given of herself for so many decades of her life. So like one of our last. Our last moments together was me just like reading her her own writing until like 2 or 3 in the morning. And she just wanted to hear it all and she wanted to hear the commentary and the feedback she got and the critiques. And so I think it's just like she really, like, got so, like, took so much of her identity back in her writing. And so I would love to. For her to know that, you know, that we have that in common now, even though she's gone. But so that would be. That would be an easy one for me, an easy pick.
- [53:18]
A
That's so beautiful. I love that that's what she wanted at the end of her life.
- [53:22]
B
Yeah, I know.
- [53:23]
A
Read me.
- [53:23]
B
Not photo albums. Don't. About my family. Just like, I want to. I want to. Like, let's like walk me through the different stages of my life in my own words.
- [53:32]
A
I love that so much. Yeah. All right, everybody, you can get this book. Don't tell me how it ends now. Wherever you get your books. I listen to some of the audiobooks. She does a great job. She's so narrator. Yeah, she's really good. Yeah. So if you're an audiobook person, it was the first time I ever listened to. To a romance on audio.
- [53:54]
B
Oh, yeah, I love romance on audio.
- [53:56]
A
It's like, I usually can't do fiction, period, on audio. It has to be first person voicey.
- [54:07]
B
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Like a podcast. Like you're talking to your friend or something.
- [54:11]
A
It has to be like a memoir, you know, Like, I can't do. I've recently dabbled a teeny tiny bit. But again, it has to be that really strong first person voice. Like, if it's like he said, he said, she said. I'm like, oh, I don't know. I lost it. Who's talking?
- [54:26]
B
I don't even know who he is. I'm getting groceries.
- [54:28]
A
But she did a really good job. There's even a part where like, the character didn't know who was talking at first, but I recognized the voice that she was using for the character. I was like, yeah.
- [54:40]
B
I was like, no, she's really good.
- [54:42]
A
You can't tell, but it's Ro. You can't see him, but it's him.
- [54:45]
B
He's back there. Turn around, girl.
- [54:47]
A
Right there. Yeah.
- [54:48]
B
No, she's great.
- [54:48]
A
I love that.
- [54:49]
B
Well, yeah.
- [54:50]
A
Thank you so much, Adrian. Thank you for coming on the show. And for giving us our official first sister sister combination. Finally. It only took five years, but we finally done it.
- [55:02]
B
And eight years. You knew that was coming. That was like you were just laying the ground. Yeah.
- [55:07]
A
I mean, you hadn't even started writing.
- [55:08]
B
No.
- [55:09]
A
This book.
- [55:10]
B
When I had Nicole on, I hadn't started writing anything at all.
- [55:14]
A
Yeah. And I still taught spin. Life comes at you fast.
- [55:16]
B
Yeah.
- [55:17]
A
Thank you so much everybody. You can get the book wherever you get your books and we will see you in the Stacks. Thank you all so much for listening and thank you again to Adrian Thurman for joining the show. I'd also like to say a huge thank you to Nicole Thurman for making this episode possible. Our book club pick for April is Room Swept Home by Ramik Bingham Risher. We will discuss the book on Wednesday, April 29 with Mahogany Brown. If you love the Stacks and want inside access to it, head to patreon.com the stacks to join the stacks pack and subscribe to my newsletter at Tracy thomas.substack.com Please make sure that wherever you are listening to the Stacks right now, you are subscribed. If you are listening through Apple Podcasts or Spotify, will you leave us a little review that tells folks what they can expect to hear on this podcast and why you love it? For more from the Stacks, follow us on social media at the Stacks Pod, on Instagram threads, and now we're on YouTube and check out our website at the stacks podcast.com this episode of the Stacks was edited by Christian Duenas with production assistance from Sahara Clement. Additional support is provided by Cherie Marquez and our theme music is from Tagirages. The Stax is created and produced by me, Tracy Thomas.
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Get a jump on next summer with vrbo's early booking deals. Don't wait to claim your dream summer spot, whether that includes a good porch swing or a poolside lounger. When you book early, you get the best places at the best prices. But back to poolside loungers with vrbo. You don't have to reserve any loungers. They're all yours. In fact, the whole private home is yours. Book with early booking deals and you can lounge around all all summer long, however you please. Book with vrbo.
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This podcast is sponsored by Talkspace. November is Men's Health Awareness Month, so Talkspace wants guys to know that being prepared for life's biggest challenges and opportunities means prioritizing mental health too. Talkspace can help you go beyond fine tuned workouts, supplements and productivity hacks. Talkspace can help you fine tune your inner life so you can succeed in being the best version of yourself in any situation. And with Talkspace, you can get therapy from anywhere and on your time. You can even text your therapist between sessions. If you're depressed, stressed, struggling with a relationship, or just need a little extra one on one support, Talkspace is here for you. Plus, Talkspace takes most insurance and most insured members have a $0 copay. Men's Health Awareness Month is the perfect time to reach out to TalkSpace. Now get $80 off your first month with promo code SPACE80 when you go to Talkspace.com match with a licensed therapist today at Talkspace.com and save $80 with code SPACE80@Talkspace.com that's Talkspace.com, promo code SPACE80.