B (4:32)

Thank you for having me.

A (4:33)

I'm so excited you're here. Last time you came we talked about the disordered cosmos. This time you're back not only to talk about your new book the Edge of Space Time, but you're coming back for a two parter. So we're book clubbing and we're talking about the books you love. So this is going to be like a little more, you know, intimate look at at Chanda. So let's start where I kind of always like to start with these episodes. Will you tell us a little bit like your background, where you come from and then how you got to books, what your, what your relationship to books is.

B (5:05)

So I'm originally from Los Angeles, I'm from East LA and my mom was a reading teacher. She was actually also a professor in the Seek program at Queens College. So she taught with Audre Lorde and Adrienne Rich. And so I come from a reading focused family. My mom's parents were both teachers. So on some level, as a professor, I'm like a third generation teacher. So I can't remember a time when books weren't part of my life, when I didn't have my head stuck in a book. I think my favorite book story from my childhood is I got in trouble for pulling out Roots in a meeting my mom had with Hillary Clinton at the White House. I was bored and I was reading Roots and my mom was like, she's going to think I was sending her a message. And I was like, it's an issue that you didn't realize. Like, that was what I was reading right now. So. But I was like that I was reading roots at like 11:12. Yeah.

A (6:04)

So funny. This is the second you, you won't know this now, but people listening will know that we talked about Roots last month with Mahogany Brown. So it's like.

B (6:13)

That's right.

A (6:14)

I've. I've still never read. I've still never read Roots. I. I've seen the movie many times, but I've. Or the series, but I've never read the book.

B (6:24)

You know, I'm not sure I've actually seen the entire series, now that I think about it. I. Interesting. I saw the follow on one that aired when we were kids about one of his ancestors. There's one called Queen, or Queen, I can't remember. Yeah, with Halle Berry. Right. I think Halle Berry was in it. So I remember vaguely familiar. We watched that when it aired because obviously it was like a big black media moment. So, like all the black households were just watching it. We didn't know if it was. Was going to be good, but we were going to watch it.

A (6:53)

Right. Okay, okay, okay. Back to you. Back to you. So you grow up in this teachery, bookish world and family. You are a bookish child. When did science become something? Like, when did you get into science? And then when did you think science is something you could do professionally, I

B (7:16)

guess, to bring it back to books and reading? One thing that was big in my family with my father, My father had grown up mostly in the Commonwealth in Trinidad and then in England. And his stepfather was a very bookish, classic British literature person. So reading out loud was a big thing in my household. And reading, we read poetry out loud. We read Alice in Wonderland out loud. And my dad, I knew him as a union man. He was a gas man. And he was President of his union local when I was born. So I just knew him as a political organizer. But there is a version of his life where for four years he went to university and did a degree in maths and philosophy. And so I did have kind of a consciousness that someone in my family had done something like this. And so when I started first grade and discovered there was a girl in my class who was a year younger than me and already knew something called times tables, and I didn't know what they were, I immediately went home and demanded that he teach me times tables because nobody in the class was going to know something that I didn't know. There wasn't even that, like, I needed other people to not know things. I just needed to know what everybody else knew. Which maybe explains some of the text messages people get from me where I'm like, what's going on? I need to know what's going on. I can't have anybody. And so, like, in connection to that, I showed an early interest. Once I learned the times tables, I just loved them. But for me, it was, like, very connected to. I had the experience of learning that within a family where it was books and math. So there was never any of this feeling of, these are two separate worlds and they shall never meet or anything like that. And then I kept showing interest in this. I got really excited about physical science and a little elective my school was offering when I was 10. And my teacher was like, told my mom, who is the main custodial parent, you have to give her more enrichment. Take her, like, figure it out. And so my mom saw that there was an Errol Morris documentary called A Brief History of Time about Stephen Hawking that was showing at the Lemoli Theater on the west side in LA and could only afford to take me to an early showing, and so dragged me on a Saturday morning when I was 10 years old when I wanted to be watching my X Men cartoons to see A Brief history of time. And that was the moment where I was like, wait a minute, you can get paid to do math all day? That was just like. There was a moment he was talking about black holes and solving problems Einstein hadn't figured out. And I was like, sold. Working class kid will need a job growing up. And I want this one.

A (10:10)

It's just listening to you talk is so fascinating to me because every time you start one of these stories, I'm just like, oh. And then. And then you did times tables. Like, yikes. They're just like, what? Like, I know that people like you exist. Like I know you exist. I talk to you frequently and then when I'm hearing you say it out loud, I'm just like, not a Stephen Hawking documentary. Like, well, you know, the funny thing

B (10:34)

is, is that I was really angry about going to that documentary because like, obviously as a 10 year old my understanding was this is adult. Like, who cares?

A (10:42)

Yeah.

B (10:43)

And like, by the way, I was allowed to cuss. So it's entirely possible that I in fact said this is adult shit to my mother.

A (10:51)

And so crazy.

B (10:53)

I mean the times tables, I think for me they're like a comfort thing.

A (10:57)

I used to, I actually do like the times table. I like times tables. Just one through 10 though. Like, I don't, I'm not going to past that. Like, I'm not going maybe up to twelves, maybe twelves max.

B (11:08)

I love the consistency, which is like you just add two more and then you go and another two, and another two and another two. I actually have to memorize it.

A (11:19)

I can memorize it. So it's in my brain.

B (11:21)

Yeah, yeah.

A (11:22)

But like I can't do that math. I just know that math. Do you know what I mean? Like, I can't do it.

B (11:27)

I mean, I think for most of us at some point these become units that we memorize and we're kind of not super conscious of that. And then how easy the recall is for you often just has to do with how frequently you use them. And that's actually, even as a professional physicist. I'm going to be teaching quantum field theory to our graduate students next year. Quantum field theory is one of those topics where I basically read a quantum field theory textbook every year because I need to keep it fresh in my head. And I realized like the average person doesn't read quantum field theory on a regular basis.

A (12:02)

I'm going to go ahead and say the average person doesn't know what quantum field theory is. I mean, I don't, I don't know if I'm average, but I certainly have never even heard those words put together. I know what a field is. I know what a theory is. Yeah, yeah.

B (12:15)

I mean, I'm sure. And I, I actually think like too, in, in my book that's just coming out the Edge of Space Time, this was one of these topics that I actually really wanted to tell people about. So this will probably, this is probably your first entree with the topic. Partly. I was at this workshop last year with a group of theoretical physicists and I was telling them some of the things that I was going to put into the book.

A (12:34)

And.

B (12:35)

And they were like, all looking at me like, are you broken? What's wrong with you? Like, why would you try and explain that to people? And I was like, no, no, I love this stuff, and I don't think we should avoid talking about it or trying to talk to people about it. I. So I kind of normalize bringing up quantum field theory, and it can sound like a flex, but really, I'm just trying to say this is a thing that I have to practice with. Right? This is a tool of my trade that I have to practice with. And we can get into. I mean, just for the people who are like, all right, you've said it several times. What is it? This is where we merge quantum mechanics and special relativity together. And it requires, like, a complete reframing of how we do calculations and how we envision what particles are even made of or how particles are created. And so for me, it's a really fun topic because it also kind of pushes the boundaries of our conceptions of, like, what makes up reality. So why wouldn't we try and tell people about that? It's weird. We like weird shit.

A (13:33)

Yeah. I mean, okay, so this brings me. This brings us to the book. And like I said, whenever I talk to you, I'm always, like, so surprised. And I feel like I have such a sense of wonder about your brain because in my mind, it functions so differently. Like, the. The connections you're drawing and the ideas you're coming with. I am constantly like, wow. Chanda's like, whoa. Like, she. She knows what she's talking about. And one of the things that I really like about the book is that you, in this book, especially more so than your previous book, the Disordered Cosmos, you're giving us real world analogies. Kind of like, explain it like, I'm five. You're really doing that in this book. Like, there's a. There's a part where we're talking about, like, time and gravity and, like, I have a very cursory grasp of gravity, but you have your, like, Cosmos Girl or what. What's. What's her name? Gravity Girl.

B (14:31)

Gravity Girl.

A (14:32)

Yeah, Gravity Girl. And she's going in the elevator. And you explain to us that if she lets go of a ball and how when she's moving and, like, I'm like, right. I can picture these elements. And I feel like, what is special about that for me and maybe for other readers is that so often when someone says something like theoretical physics or whatever, just my whole brain just goes white Like, I'm just like, I don't know what that is. Like, I never took physics. I have no idea. So in this book, when you're breaking it down, like, there's. There's images and there's things where you're explaining, like, okay, look, you're in a car. If I'm holding a bat in a car, it looks like the bat and the car moving at the same time for the people who are, like, in the car or not in the car, but for the, you know, like. But for the people in the car, it feels like the bat's not moving at all, but it is moving. And, like, you explain it in ways where I'm like, yes, I know what a car is. I know what a bat is. I know what moving is. So my question is, how hard is it for you to take these big things that you have dedicated your life to and simplify them to the point that people who really have a very cursory knowledge, or in my case, pretty much no knowledge, can understand and can grasp onto? And then the other part of that is, like, is it fun for you to do that, or are you sort of, like, annoyed that you have to go solo to get us on board with what you do?

B (15:59)

So, first of all, I just need to say to the listeners that this is like winning an award from Tracy. I feel like I have just won, like, the Tracy Thomas, like, Stack Science Writing Award.

A (16:11)

I said, you're our resident science expert. The one and only.

B (16:15)

But I just, like, I feel like I should be wearing a tiara right now and just, like, saying my thank yous to everyone who brought me to this point. Partly because you're exactly the reader that I had in mind when I was. When I was working on that section and, you know, with the Disordered Cosmos. One of the ways in which the book was successful was that people who don't usually read science writing, like you, I would say, right, yes. Came to the book. And they came to the book partly because of the story that I was telling with the book and because of my political orientation, my interest in black studies and feminist studies. And while I was writing it, I didn't have so much appreciation for how that meant there were going to be people coming to the book who were anxious as science readers and maybe were having genuine traumas triggered because, like, so many people have had, like, asshole physics teachers, like, in high school, that kind of thing. Right. And I was thinking about that a lot more in writing the. This book that the Edge of Space Time is really Meant to say to people, this is a perspective that you should feel you have some entitlement to and that I have some responsibility to try and share this way of looking at the world with you. Partly because once you look at the world in these terms, you don't see the world the same way. And it creates pathways in your brain. And you shouldn't have to go off and get a PhD to get a taste of that. You're not going to have the same experience exactly that I have. But I can give you a sense of what it means to kind of walk and look at the world. Like, I have this section in a later chapter where I'm talking about light as particles. And I'm like, now whenever I turn a light on, I'm like, there are all these particles flying out of the light. And it's just like photons. They're just photons everywhere. And, you know, coming back to the section about gravity and relativity that you were just talking about with, I actually have a hard time with mechanics. I did not enjoy that stuff as a college student. And so actually, one of the challenges for me was making it interesting for me as I was writing it. Because I knew if I was bored, the reader was going to be bored. And so I am. And the other thing is that there are lots of other books that cover some of that same stuff. And so I was trying to figure out what is my unique contribution to this, because, like, why should you read my book other than someone else's? And I think part of it was doing things like putting in a baseball bat. Because I love baseball. A lot of my readers love baseball. You know, I talk openly about having dental disabilities and just being like, yeah, sometimes I bust a move down the freeway to get from campus down to Boston to go to the dentist office. And also my dentist, who is an incredible person, made sure that I was able to focus on getting the book done because I had so much stuff going on. So I also wanted him to have the experience of reading that section.

A (19:19)

Right.

B (19:19)

So that was part of it.

A (19:20)

One of the things that you're drawing connections to in this book is poetry. I mean, it's in the subtitle. The subtitle of the book is Particles, Poetry and the Cosmic Dream Book Boogie. And I don't know if I'm alone in this. I struggle. I have publicly struggled with poetry. I certainly struggle with science stuff. And I had never considered that these two things were similar. Not just they were similar and that my issues with them were similar in the ways that they had been taught to me as a kid, right. That there was, like, a correct answer and that I wasn't getting it with poetry and that there was an it to get, and that that with the science side of it, like, I just wasn't smart enough to get it or I didn't understand it enough to get it. And what your book opens up and also you sort of like, as a human, as an avatar for the work that you do is like, maybe, like, you could get it if you thought about it differently and recognize that these things are actually much closer together than perhaps, like, what we've been taught. And so I'm wondering, when was there a moment for you when you realized that the physics and the science of it and the poetry of it were actually much closer together than the rest of us had been led to believe?

B (20:51)

I will say, for this particular book, for the Edge of Spacetime, I think my entry point was Big Crit's Catalactica album, which I think is maybe his most unsung album. But it is also, you know, just pull up the artwork for Catalactica. The artwork for that is a cosmic themed. He's basically trying to tell this story where he's situating himself and the history of Southern hip hop in a cosmic narrative. And it's literally Catalactica, like a galaxy. Like, that's. That's the. The image that's being invoked there. And he has a song on the album called My Subpart 3 that opens with the line Big Bang Ho. Importantly, there's a lead up into it at the end of the track before called Life that starts to explain to the listener about the planet Catalactica. So there's a whole cosmology that he's creating.

A (21:51)

Yeah.

B (21:52)

And then the song My Subpart three, which has this refrain, Big Bangho. He starts by telling the story of this dude who is just trying to trick out his car with an amazing sound system.

A (22:04)

And that's when we first started fire. Cause the speakers went grounded and he fried all the wives. But he thought about the thump from the jump. From the jump. Took it out the bat cave and he threw it in the trunk. And that's evolution for you, peace for you, PE. Like, this is how I'm supposed to

B (22:20)

get freaks808 and I remember the first time listening to that and being like, oh, this is a black scientist story. Because this is an engineer who is trying to wire some things and screws up the wiring. And so I think there's an element of this, that, like, my habit as a black scientist, and this is like my very black scientist scientist habit, is that I read everything for science, and I read black stuff in particular for science where people might not understand it in those terms. And so I actually remember I text to Kiese Lehman and I was like, what if I had a chapter in my book called Big Bang Ho? And he was like, I dare you. And then I. I don't quite do that. I do. I do something. I do something else. But that song does form kind of a conceptual core for how I started to think about how can I tell these stories for people. There's poetry and there's music where these stories are all already there. And I just need to help people hear those elements of those songs.

A (23:30)

Yeah, well, you. I feel like I should have asked you this earlier. If I was better at my job, maybe I would have. Can you tell people in your own words, what is space time and what does it mean to be at the edge of it?

B (23:43)

So I think the fun thing about this book is that basically I say, no, I can't really tell you about space time, but we're going to spend three chapters on it. And what I mean by that, I mean the short version of what is space time? I borrow from the philosopher W.V. quine, who essentially said that you can think of yourself as like, being physically in three spatial dimensions, right? So you have a height, you have a width, you have a depth. And then in my case, my depth in the time dimension is 43 and a half years. So put those together and I have four dimensions, and that fourth dimension is my age. So that's one way to get, like, a really quick, intuitive sense of when we think about space and time together. That doesn't give you a sense of, like, why we should think about them together. And that's one of the reasons we spend so much time with the bat and the car is to get some intuition for how. Because the speed of light never changes is.

A (24:42)

Which is cool.

B (24:43)

Which is cool in a vacuum. It never changes. It's constant. When I wanted people to have an intuition for why that's cool, because I can say that to you and you can be like, okay, whatever, but hopefully you spend some time with that and you start to see, okay, the way that I measure the length of the bat is going to depend on how fast the car is going and where I am relative to that car. Am I in the car or am I outside of the car, watching by the side of the road? And that means That I cannot think of space and time as separate, even if in my everyday life they sort of seem that way. They're not. Is that telling you what space time is, though? Or am I just telling you how it works? And this is one of the things that I kind of range through in the book is you're sitting in space right now. I'm sitting in space right now. I can't see space. You can't sit. Well, I don't know. I shouldn't speak for you.

A (25:35)

Maybe you can.

B (25:37)

But one of the fun things about writing the Edge of Space Time was giving people a sense of. There are still these big questions that we are allowed to ask, and that asking them can help prepare our minds to deal with people who are trying to sell us something, whether that's the President of the United States trying to sell a war that he just started and is now blaming somebody else for or whatever. That it's not just about physics. It's about preparing our minds to be out in the world.

A (26:10)

Well, okay, so this is my. This is my actual bigger question for you, Chanda, which is like, why should we care about the speed of light? Like, what. What does it mean to us materially? Because I do know about you that in addition to knowing all of this stuff, you are a person. I think this is a fair assessment who cares deeply about the world and what is happening in it and how we treat each other and how we show up and how we're classified and how we're qualified and quantified. Like, I know that you care about the material lives of people and things. And to me, so much of this feels so far removed from my everyday life. Like, it feels so far removed from, like, gas prices or. Or genocide or transgender athletes. But you sort of are making an argument in your work that these things are much closer. So can you help people understand that? Because I think that's, like, so integral to who you are as a scientist. Like, that is why you are the resident scientist of this podcast. It's not because you're good at quantum. Whatever. I don't care. It's because you can bridge that with all of this. So I want you to sort of explain to us how you see those things.

B (27:31)

And for me, one of the refrains in the book is the concept of Sankofa, which is that we should go back and get what we have forgotten. And this is an Akan concept. And it's also the title of a film that I saw right around the time I saw the Errol Morris documentary. I saw Haile Gorima's film Sankofa, which is about a black American model who goes and does a photo shoot at the Door of no Return in Ghana and basically ends up time traveling back into enslavement and has this entire journey. And this happens after a griot is basically shouting at her, like, you have to remember there's some version of remember who you are, which I think now sounds very familiar to us because we hear some version of that in Black Panther as well. And so in my own work, because I also do black feminist science studies work in thinking about the work of Jamaican and American philosopher Sylvia Wynter, who talks about how humans construct ourselves through storytelling and asking myself, what does that have to do with my science? Because I'm always reading for science. One of the most important stories we tell ourselves is about our origin story, the origins of our cosmos. And so the story that I want to tell people in this book in the Edge of Space Time, is that if we're serious about going back and getting black history, that going back and getting black history means also going back and getting the story of the Big Bang. It is the story of space time. It is the story of this cosmos that our ancestors witnessed for generations under a dark night sky. We're really among the first generations that have not grown up with dark night skies and all of our environments. And so part of it is actually saying to people, I actually want you to have this experience of something that's totally disconnected from your material concerns, because your brain needs that. Your spirit needs that, your spirit. This is one of the reasons people go to church, is your spirit needs to feel connected to something bigger than what's broken about the world. As my mom says, people need to know the universe is bigger than the bad things that are happening to us.

A (29:48)

Right?

B (29:48)

And so that's. That's part of it. The other piece of it, as is, as you read in the book, you don't get GPS without general relativity. And there is. So there is that material element of it. The technology that you and I are using to record this podcast relies on quantum mechanics. And so there is a material element to it. But I also want to invite people to say to themselves, our joy matters, even if the authoritarians don't think it does. And in fact, that is exactly why we should allow ourselves to be curious and weird and go off in strange directions. And, you know, specifically with respect to trans issues. I think for me, quantum mechanics became a richer kind of text of knowledge when I started hearing about how trans people were interpreting quantum mechanics on their own terms and non binary people. And that's why there is a non binary. There's an invisible envy in the book. Wearing a very dapper. I love that figure. Sharifah did such an amazing job with it. Sharifa Zainab Williams did a lot of the illustrations. She nailed that one.

A (30:54)

Yeah.

B (30:54)

Just got to say it.

A (30:55)

I'm so glad that you came into my life because I feel like I still, you know, I still don't feel like a science person, but I am more science curious and more science awareness than perhaps I would have been without the work that you do and that you've done. And I think it's a really cool thing to have a person because, like, I'm not gonna pretend there are definitely parts of this book that I literally said out loud to myself, what the fuck is Chanda talking about? I literally was like, I have no fucking clue what this is. Like, there will be sexes where I was just like, I don't. I. I'm gone. I'm lost. And still, though, I didn't stop. Do you know what I mean? And, like, a previous version of me would have been like, I. I cannot do this. Like, this is not a possibility for me. And I feel like having read your work previously and knowing that, like, it's gonna come together and, like, I'm gonna figure it out or I'm not, and maybe, like, I won't understand it for years, but, like, that it is possible for us to be curious about these things that I've sort of felt like we weren't invited to. And I. And I don't mean that only as, like, a woman or a black woman. I mean that as, like, a person who is not in academia or a person who has not dedicated my life to science. So I do feel like a lot of the work that you're doing is just, like, saying to people, like, it's okay. You can, like, learn about this even if you don't get it. Like, you could kind of try. You could try to learn about it. Like, that's fine. You're allowed. And that's cool.

B (32:31)

I think part of it, right, is that I want you to go on the journey. And I actually want to invite people into getting comfortable with confusion. Because actually, in pop culture, there's such a narrative that science is about definitively knowing things. And actually, the practice of actually being a scientist is spending your time at the edge of confusion, because your job is to push the boundary of what's known. And that means you have to be in the place where you don't know things. And so if you're feeling confused, you're having a scientist experience that's actually, you're not failing at science, you're actually being a scientist. I think that that's part of the journey I want people to have. And the other thing is there's no test at the end. This is really important. It's not like your high school class. There's no test at the end. And mostly I just want people to have the journey of having like read through and heard about non trinary neutrinos. You don't have to remember what nine non trinary neutrinos are. But you know that if at some point that's something that comes to mind, you know where to look it up. And that's actually also. I have a whole bookshelf behind me of books that when I forget something, I go consult it. I was talking earlier about reading Quantum field theory every year. So this is about the journey of going into the things and the way that it rewires your brain a little bit. That's really what I want. I'm just trying to, you know, proselytize to everyone and transform everyone's brains.

A (33:59)

That's all normal shit, just like minor stuff. One of the things you say in the, in the Sankofa chapter, the sort of introductory chapter in the book is physics is exciting and it is also challenging. Math isn't the main challenge either. That part anyone can learn. Yes, you given the right resources and time. What makes physics hard is that you must be willing to change your worldview when the experiments and even sometimes theories demand it. And I feel like you could substitute a whole lot of words for physics in there, right? Like to be a person in the world, to be a compassionate person in the world, to be a curious person in the world. You sometimes have to change your worldview when the experiments and the theories and the evidence present themselves to you. And I thought that was just so profound. And that like also in a lot of ways felt like an invitation to me for this book because, you know, I went in a little Dukes up, as I do when I know I'm going to be challenged and feel like an idiot. And I was like, okay, we could just like, I'm just going to open it up though. I do, I really do think it would be close to impossible for someone to teach me the math of physics at this big age.

B (35:12)

I mean, you know, my belief is that that's a matter of time. And interest. Right. Not everyone has the interest.

A (35:18)

Right, certainly.

B (35:19)

But I think everybody's brain is capable of the logic. And that's all that's actually necessary intellectually. The rest is personality choice. Like, do I care? And I think it's okay for people to be like, you know what? I'm happy that Chanda does calculus. And I don't need to be doing calculus. Right. Part of my job is to come back to you and say, well, I can still explain some of the ideas to you without the calculus. And like, would. Would you like to know a few things? Like, would you like to know that actually particles emerge somehow out of nothing? And this is like a weird philosophical conundrum which is like, how do you have everything emerge out of nothing? This is like. And you know, just sit with that. You don't need any math to kind of sit with. Well, that feels weird. And yes, the other thing is, you were saying earlier of like, you know, what did she just say? Sometimes I'm sitting there and I'm like, well, you know, this is what we think right now, but it's odd. It is like, so part of it is a practice of being like, that's weird. The universe is weird. I want you to have that experience of it being weird and to think of spending some time with physics and out in the cosmos as a sandbox for practicing that skill that you were just saying. We could fill in a different word for physics, but physics can be your sandbox.

A (36:40)

Yeah. Yeah. Okay, we're gonna take a break and then we're gonna come back and talk about the books of your life. Spring is officially here. Mother's Day is on the horizon, and I am treating myself this season by ramping up my coziness whether I'm at home or on the go. Lately, Cozy Earth has been my go to for making this happen. Always reminding me that I deserve a little softness and a little comfort. Wherever my chaotic life take me. From my morning cup of tea and school drop offs to afternoon errands, pickups with the minis, you will find me rocking my brand new Cozy Earth jogger set. It's soft enough to lounge in in the house, and it's structured and elevated just enough that I don't feel like a total schlub walking around Los Angeles while I'm wearing it. I get to be comfy and cute. It's lightweight, it's breathable, it's high quality, and it definitely is getting softer with every wash. Go ahead, try it for yourself. Cozy earthbox, everything with 100 night trial because they're confident you're going to love it and if you don't, you can return it. Simple. Plus your purchase is backed with a 10 year warranty that protects against damage for an entire decade. 10 years. That's the kind of commitment that tells you everything you need to know about the quality. Head to cozy earth.com and use my code the stacks for an exclusive 20% off your purchase. And if you see a post purchase survey, please be sure to mention you heard about Cozy Earth right here on the Stacks. True comfort lives here. Starting your own business can be a little intimidating. Trust me, when I first started this podcast, I had to figure it all out on my own. From designing brand assets to scheduling episodes to managing social media, it was way more overwhelming than I originally had expected. That's why it helps to have a tool that can simplify all the tasks you do so you can focus on, you know, the fun stuff for millions of businesses around the world. That tool is Shopify. Shopify makes starting your own business effortless, offering hundreds of ready to use templates to build your brand identity. AI tools help you to write, copy and enhance images, built in marketing tools to create bespoke email and social media campaigns, and so much more. The best part is you can manage all your tasks in one place, making your life easier and your business operations way smoother. No need for multiple websites and platforms. Shopify does it all. Start your business today with the industry's best business partner, Shopify, and start hearing. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com the stacks go to shopify.com the stacks that's shopify.com the stacks here on the Stacks I have talked to countless debut authors who spent years dreaming of the day they'd finally see their books out in the world. All that was left was finding a publisher to bring their stories to life. If you're finding yourself in the same boat, I'd like to introduce you to IngramSpark. IngramSpark is an award winning publishing platform that provides everything you need to successfully self publish your book. It costs nothing to sign up and upload your book and with free publishing tools and resources, you can focus on what you do best. Writing your story while IngramSpark makes it possible to share with the world, when you self publish with IngramSpark, you are automatically plugged into one of the publishing industry's largest global book distribution networks, giving you access to over 45,000 retailers, including independent bookstores and libraries, ready to bring your story to life. Get 15% off your first order of 15 or more books using code STACKS15. This offer expires at the end of the year, so get started today. All right, we're back. Before we do the books of your life, we're gonna do the Ask the Stack segment, which I have not prepared you for. So you'll have to listen and think. Good luck. Um, someone wrote in Holly, is this like Final Jeopardy? Like, sort of? No, Holly wrote wrote in asking for a book recommendation, she emailed Ask the Stacks at the stacks podcast.com People at home. You should definitely do that because I am running low on these. Okay, here's what Holly said. One of my reading goals this year has been to read more books about disability. At the end of last year, I realized that this was not only a big gap in my reading, but in general able. But in general, ableism can be unconsciously pervasive in my life and my work environment. So far, I have read a number of books centering disability that I have enjoyed and learned from. However, I've noticed that quite a lot of books that center on disability are written by able bodied authors. And I would be curious to hear from you two about why that is. Plus any general thoughts about ableism in the publishing industry. And of course, I would love recommendations for books by disabled authors. Both fiction and nonfiction are great. And then she shared a few books that she's already read by disabled authors that she's enjoyed. The country of the Blind by Andrew Leland, A Little Less Broken by Marion Shambari, Disability Visibility edited by Alice Wong, Hunchback by Sao Ichikawa, what Doesn't Kill youl by Tessa Miller, and Death of the Author by Nnedi Okafor. So I'm gonna turn to you and ask if you have any recommendations. I can also start if you would like, if you.

B (42:07)

No, I have. I know which one I definitely wanna tell everyone to read.

A (42:10)

Okay, go ahead.

B (42:11)

Which is, I really think everyone should read the memoir Dyscalculia by Kimon Felix. Yes, you probably would have guessed that would be one of my suggestions. I really think it's so powerful. It's black, it's Jewish, it's queer, it's of New York and the Bronx in a certain time period. So I think it also speaks to people who are often not imagined as part of the disability conversation.

A (42:45)

Yeah, because we were talking about poetry. I was thinking of the book Deaf Republic by Ilya Kaminsky. It's a poetry collection. They're sort of like interconnected poems. It's not Like a full epic poem. But it's like a story of a town of deaf people. And it's really good. It's almost like a play. I just remember reading it and being like, yeah, sure, deaf people and disabled people can write like weird. That's not on the nose in the same, you know, like, it's like so often I feel like so much of the disability writing that is pushed is like so prescriptive and this is like so creatively like interesting and different and I just really liked it. The other book that I love that I've been screaming about for so long is Against Techno Ableism by Ashley Shue. I love this book because first and foremost, Ashley Shoes Voice is just so like, like, it's just like, she's great. It's so clear, you could tell it's big fuck you energy. You guys know I love a chesty writer. She's giving chesty. And it's about thinking about ableism, which to your point, to your question, Holly, I think is really interesting. She talks a lot about why it is that so much of disability writing and disability culture is funneled through able bodied people. And it's just like, it's so good. The voice is so strong. So I love that book. Do you want to do one more Chanda?

B (44:14)

Yeah. And let me just add about Ashley because I have a story about Ashley. I was once on a panel with her at the Library of Congress where she talked about pooping in space. And it was like a life changing experience for me actually, which I actually think I cite her comments about that in the Edge of Space Time towards the end of the. The Edge of Space Time because she was pointing out that people with colostomy bags don't have to worry about diapers in the same way that astronauts often have to worry about diapers. And that was such a great example of how our ableism isn't allowing us to imagine the different configurations that astronauts can come in in a way that's actually useful.

A (44:56)

Right.

B (44:57)

The other book that comes to mind for me is True Biz by Sara Novich.

A (45:02)

Oh yeah, we did that for book club.

B (45:04)

Oh yeah. What?

A (45:05)

She's got a memoir?

B (45:07)

She does have a memoir coming out. I want to say it's in May.

A (45:10)

Yeah, it's called Mother Tongue.

B (45:13)

Mother Tongue, like just incredible. I loved the way that she included ASL signs drawn in the text. I felt like for me it was a really helpful introduction to deaf culture that I had like never really been through before. And she's just a magnificent storyteller. I actually read the entire book in one sitting. I was on a very long flight and I just sat on the plane and read. I didn't sleep when I was supposed to because it was so good.

A (45:48)

I love that. The other thing I want to just offer to Holly and anyone listening is that, you know, I know that there is definitely conversations around disability versus chronic illness and terminal illness and how these things are similar and different and whatever. And I know that that's like a much bigger conversation, but I do want to offer that there are many chronically ill writers who are writing about all sorts of things outside of that identity. Like someone who comes to mind for, like you, like Imani Perry, for example. There's just so many. So I think also paying attention to the books that you're reading and knowing that just because the topic isn't about that doesn't mean that that is not somehow informing the work that you're reading. And that to me, that, like, you know, we talk about this with like, black authors. It's like black authors don't have to write about specifically a quote unquote, black experience to be writing from a black experience. And I think that's also true for so many disabled, chronically ill, terminally ill, neurodiverse, etc author. So I just wanted to sort of toss that out there into the fray as well.

B (46:59)

Yeah. If I can just add, we were talking about this example of me writing about, like, the car on the freeway going to the dentist. And often for me, and if my dentist is listening, I love you, I think you're great. But also going to that, going to the office is stressful for me. I have these dental disabilities because I was hit by a car when I was 19 and my jaw was broken in multiple, multiple places. I lost pieces of lots of my teeth. I have since lost two of my teeth. And I've had like almost every dental procedure. I had braces twice as an adult. So for me, I carry all of that when I go into the dentist office. And part of what I was doing in that chapter where I'm just telling this story about me speeding is I'm trying to kind of invert that by being like, this is now a fun story in my book. Not because I'm. I'm trying to avoid it, but to. But I get to try and extract something funny from it, which is that I'm going way over the speed limit.

A (47:57)

Right, right, right.

B (47:58)

So I think that's also. That's a way that it shaped my work. Not because the book is about disability or really my experience as a disabled person. But that is how being a disabled person shaped the way that I told the story about a car on the freeway in special relativity.

A (48:16)

Right, Right, exactly that. Thank you, Holly. If you read anything we suggest, let us know. And everyone else, email ask the stacks thestaxpodcast.com for a book recommendation. And now, what we've all been waiting for. Chanda. Two books you love, one book you hate.

B (48:31)

Two books I love Mansfield park by Jane Austen and Long Division by Kiese Lehman. And one book I hate the Corrections by Jonathan Franzen. I really, really want my time back.

A (48:45)

That's how I feel about freedom.

B (48:47)

I didn't feel that strongly about freedom, but, my God, it was just about miserable people being miserable and miserable at each other. And I was like, what was the point? There was no point.

A (48:56)

There was no point to make you miserable.

B (48:59)

I was like. And I was on a road trip and I was like, Wyoming was beautiful, and I was listening to these miserable people. I just wish I had listened to something else.

A (49:08)

Yeah. What's the last really great book you've read?

B (49:12)

You know, I just finished Kin by Tayari Jones. I mean, I think I've read either all of her novels or almost all of them, and she has always been great, but I felt like this was a level up for her.

A (49:28)

I agree.

B (49:29)

And I'll be honest, partly because, like, I didn't see people talking about it on social media. As a queer person, as a queer woman, I was like, wait, this is a book about queer women? I did not know. I didn't Terry think, Like, I just. It was. It was beautiful. It was really beautiful.

A (49:48)

I loved it. I loved it. What are you reading right now?

B (49:51)

I'm reading right now the book club selection for May Lonely Crowds by Stephanie Wambuku. And I also just got the arc for Shannon Sanders new novel, the Great Wherever. Just the opening paragraph. I just, like, I had to be like, you know what? Save some talent for the rest of us. Like, if there's a finite pool, why are you so rude?

A (50:14)

Interesting.

B (50:15)

Don't be a hog.

A (50:16)

I'm so excited. You know, Shannon, famously a member of the Stacks Pack, which is a great joy to me. Shout out to authors who are members of the Saks Pack. It always makes me happy. And I'm so excited because her first book company was a short story collection and it won the LA Times Prize.

B (50:35)

We were there. We were presenters.

A (50:37)

Yeah. Yeah, we were there. So I'm excited to read her her novel. So I'm glad you're loving it so far.

B (50:43)

It is. Especially. I watch a lot of horror films and.

A (50:47)

Oh, is it horror?

B (50:48)

It's a ghost story.

A (50:51)

No, I can't read it. Sorry, Shannon. Love you. Good luck.

B (50:54)

No, it's so. It's funny. It's funny as hell. Like, it's so. It's not like, scary jump, scare, horror. There's. As far as I know so far. Okay, okay, okay. But there's a ghost element to it, and I just like black ghost. I'm into it. I'm into it.

A (51:11)

Okay. I'm so nervous now. Now I'm tense.

B (51:13)

Okay.

A (51:14)

Okay. What are some other books that you're looking forward to reading? It doesn't have to be something coming out this year. It could just be something that you been wanting to get to. Or it could be something coming out.

B (51:23)

I got this arc for Cat Love by Tomas K. Maurin, which, because he's also a Pantheon author, and I was not paid to say this, I will just say I love Moby Dick and the opening rips off of Moby Dick, and I love any writer who also loves Moby Dick and engages smartly with it. So that's one. Yeah.

A (51:48)

Okay. Do you set reading goals for yourself?

B (51:51)

No, I would. I would. The guilt would kill me. The guilt would kill me.

A (51:58)

What's a book that you like to recommend to people?

B (52:02)

I am a Forever Stan of Long Division by Kiese Lehman, partly because people really love his nonfiction. And I understand why people really love his nonfiction because he's a genius. Also a genius Hog Hand Over Cher. And I think Long Division really flies under the radar because people love his nonfiction so much that they don't appreciate how brilliant that book was. And then I guess I will say these are like my. I guess two books I love. I think everybody should read Mansfield park by Jane Austen. It's the one that's about enslavement and race and white feminism. And a lot of people don't appreciate that. And so I just think people should go back and appreciate that.

A (52:45)

I love you. Okay. Are there any genres you don't read?

B (52:49)

You know, the funny thing is, is that I actually don't read a lot of, like, science fiction and fantasy, and people often expect that from me because I'm a scientist. That's not to say I don't read any. Like, I will, for the rest of my life, read anything that Tracy Dionne puts out.

A (53:03)

Sure.

B (53:04)

I'm obsessed with the Legendborn series. I also really liked Jordan ifueco's writing. So There, there are exceptions. I was obsessive with Lord of the Rings as a kid, but otherwise that's not really something that I will actively pursue.

A (53:19)

Do you, do you push up against the, like, science in it? Is that part of it? Like, are you like, this isn't. That's not possible, or is it just like you're not in. Just doesn't speak to you?

B (53:29)

I think my bar is like, really, really high. Part of it is I like literary writing. And there's lots of work out there that's literary. Like, I think of Tracy's work as literary. Tracy Dion's work as literary. Long division, in my view, is an SFF novel. And it is also literary. I don't know. I guess people might say it's magical realism, but like, frankly, like, what's kind of, what's the difference on a level. But so when people are writing in a little more of a pulpy way, it's not necessarily going to attract me in the same way. Another person I really like, Charlie, Jane Anders. She's great. I really like her work.

A (54:10)

What's your ideal reading setup, location, time of day, snacks and beverages, temperature, music?

B (54:17)

You know, I don't. I think, like, the main thing is, is that I have to feel like I don't need to keep my phone in view because someone from my research group might need something from me or I'm waiting for someone to reach out to me. So really I just need to be kind of like detached from the Internet.

A (54:38)

Yeah.

B (54:39)

And feel like. And. And not just like be detached from it, but feel like okay about that.

A (54:44)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That makes sense. Do you have a favorite bookstore?

B (54:47)

You're trying to get me in trouble with all of my wonderful partner indie partners. My favorite one that I've never been to is loyalty books in D.C. oh.

A (54:57)

I've only one time, so briefly.

B (55:01)

I have an amazing relationship with Hannah and who's one of the co owners who founded the store. And they were an amazing supporter of my first book. I have my signed pre order campaign with them right now and I have just like never physically been to the store.

A (55:18)

What's the last book that made you laugh?

B (55:20)

I have to say the one that really got me last year was Careless People by Sarah Wynne Williams, the Shark Story. At the beginning,

A (55:31)

that book was sort of like nuts. Like, I don't. I. I feel like using the word memoir for that book feels like very loose. Like it's definitely like memoir, you know, like it's not nonfiction. Maybe it's.

B (55:50)

I just. The Shark Story by itself. I would tell people. And I listened to it as an audiobook. I did buy a physical copy because I was like, this is so important and powerful. Like, I need to have a physical copy of it to reference later. But her narration was just. She is so good. I would listen to her narrate other books. Like, it doesn't even have to be her. She is so good and she has such a powerful voice that actually, when I finally got my physical copy and I was, like, rereading sections of it, I could hear her voice reading to me in my head.

A (56:22)

And she's got that accent, too. I listened to it as well.

B (56:25)

The New Zealand. Yeah, yeah, yeah, she was. But not everybody can narrate, but she can.

A (56:31)

Yeah, she did a good job. Do you. Do you cry when you read? Do you have a last book that made you cry?

B (56:36)

Oh, yeah. I mean, the End of Kin by Tayari. Tayari. You destroyed me, girl. Like the ending. I wept bitterly. I was so angry and.

A (56:47)

Oh, you were angry. Oh, that's my next question. What's the last book that made you angry? Is it Ken or do you have something else?

B (56:53)

Yeah, I mean, I wasn't angry at the writer. I was a angry at the world. I mean, there are some books, like, I remember reading Invisible man by Ralph Ellison my first year of college, and then just, like, being pissed about white supremacy and, like, not being able to have a normal conversation with people without bringing up how pissed I was.

A (57:14)

Interesting.

B (57:14)

And Kin kind of had that. Yeah. I don't want to give it away, but.

A (57:19)

No, no, we will not spoil what's up. The last book where you felt like

B (57:24)

you learned a lot, you know, I love Namwali Serpell's on Morrison, partly because one of the things that she does is even if you're reading Morrison's fiction or maybe you're familiar with the nonfiction, this is a synthesis that allows you to hear the nonfiction in context of the fiction and vice versa. Yeah, it's so good.

A (57:48)

Yeah, that book. So good. So, so, so, so good. And, like, honestly could have been a bad book, like, in lesser hands, really could have sucked, like, pretty bad. And so not only was it a good book, but it was, like, so enjoyable that it was good.

B (58:09)

Right.

A (58:09)

Like, as I was reading it, I was like, someone else really could have botched this in a major way.

B (58:14)

Yeah. I mean, partly one of the hard things with Morrison, Right, Is that she was so careful with her craft that the pressure is on you if you're going to be talking about her you're going to look bad next to her if you are not up to the task. And Sir Powell was up to the task, certainly. And it's beautiful. It's beautiful.

A (58:35)

And it's so great. And also, like, the other thing I appreciate about it is like, there are so many different interpretations that so many different readers have of Toni Morrison that I felt like while she gave us her interpretation, Namwali did, she also left a lot of room for other interpretations that you maybe had yourself as a reader, which I thought was real. Like, it wasn't like, this is the answer. She was kind of like, this is an answer. Let me offer it to you. And I appreciate that. Is there a book that you think people would be surprised to know that you love?

B (59:12)

So I guess earlier I said that I really hated the Corrections by Jonathan Franson.

A (59:17)

Yeah.

B (59:18)

But actually one of my favorite essay collections is how to Be Alone by Jonathan Franson.

A (59:23)

Oh, interesting.

B (59:27)

I think part of it is it came to me at a particular point in my life when I actually needed to be thinking through kind of that thematic question. I was in my early 20s and that's kind of. I was starting. I was in graduate school and going through things and that kind of thing. But yeah, I found it to be productive. And I also think that it was one of my early examples of how to write nonfiction.

A (59:53)

I was gonna say Twilight for you.

B (59:56)

You know, the thing about Twilight is that one, I'm fairly new to it. Like, I saw all of the movies for the first time over Thanksgiving break a few months ago and then got the books afterwards and I've still only read the first book. I haven't actually gotten through the second one. The first book is like horribly written. But I. Maybe people would be surprised to know that I actually really enjoy the movies. If you watch them as camp, they're fucking great.

A (60:25)

Okay. I. I am curious what you're going to say about this one because I have gotten so many book recommendations from you that have been under my radar. So what's a book that you wish more people had read or knew about?

B (60:38)

Turf by Elizabeth Crane. This is a short story collection. It has one of my favorite all time short stories in it, which I think is actually called Star Babies.

A (60:48)

Okay.

B (60:48)

I love her work because she does whimsy like nobody else. Yeah.

A (60:55)

What's a favorite book that was assigned to you in school?

B (60:59)

Moby Dick. I think I might be the only person who actually read it in my honors English class.

A (61:05)

Yes, I believe that it was assigned

B (61:07)

summer reading and I fell in Love with it.

A (61:09)

And summer reading.

B (61:11)

Oh, yes, it was summer reading. I went to. I went. I went to the Los Angeles center for Laces.

A (61:17)

I went to Laces. Everybody knows you went to Laces. Everybody who's not from la. This doesn't mean anything to you, but anybody from, anybody from Laces, they're the unicorns. And anybody who went to Laces, it's like being a vegan or running a marathon. They tell you about it the minute they can. You're like, oh, have you ever heard of education? They're like, yeah, well, I went to Laces. Like, oh, so Chanda went to Laces, famously. And I guess they, they assigned Moby Dick for summer reading, which is disrespectful to children. What about. What, what's the book you would assign if you were a high school teacher?

B (61:55)

So I would assign Heavy by Kiese Lehman to high school students, I think just because of the kinds of things it covers about race, about gender, and also about body acceptance. I also think maybe an under discussed element of Heavy is the gambling addiction part of it. And given the rise of online gambling and phone gambling, I really think everybody needs to read that section to have an appreciation for how gambling affects families and people's lives and your whole world. So I just think those are all themes that would be good for high school students to be thinking about at that, at that stage in their lives.

A (62:33)

Yeah, I love that book. Okay, two more. Who would you want to write the book of your life? And it can't be you, obviously.

B (62:43)

Oh, yeah. Kimon Felix.

A (62:45)

Okay, do you want to know what's fucking crazy? You don't know this, but that's who Mo Brown said too. She said either Imani Perry or Kimon Felix.

B (62:56)

I'm not surprised by that. Mo introduced me in Kimon.

A (63:00)

Got it. Got it. That's not surprised by it because I know you both like her work, but it is crazy. Back to back months. But this is just a reminder. Everybody read some Kimon Felix. Hello. I mean, I guess the smartest people are telling you.

B (63:16)

Exactly. And Mo, you know, I was editor in chief of the offing almost. It's been 10 years now since I started and Mo is executive editor with me there. And she really was kind of one of my first guides in the literary world. So I'm not surprised that I've been influenced by her.

A (63:35)

I love it. I love it. Come on, people are talking, saying nice things about you behind your back. Okay, last one. If you could require the current president of the United States to Read one book, what would it be?

B (63:51)

How to Slowly Kill Yourself and Others in America by Kiese Lehman. I know, I'm like, such a fan girl. I got. I got through all three books, all three books for adults. But I mean, talk about how to slowly kill yourself and others in America.

A (64:07)

Yeah, I feel like Trump could write the sister book. Same title, different content. His. I mean, like literal. How to guide quickly.

B (64:15)

How to quickly. Maybe at this point. Yeah.

A (64:20)

Okay, well, everybody at home, go get your copy of the Edge of Space Time. If you don't have a science brain, don't worry. Be brave. If I can do it, you can do it. Okay. I should. I should have said this earlier. My children, who are six, not only is Chanda the resident science teacher here in on this podcast, but we also send Chanda voice memos saying, Excuse me, Ms. Jhonda, can you explain why the sky, why we could see the moon during the day? Or why are planets round and not, you know, ovals? And you know what? Johnna can do that too. She can teach science to the babies. She. So she can teach science to you. So don't be shy. Check out the book. I think I. I think this one is even more accessible considerably than the Disordered Cosmos, in my opinion.

B (65:11)

Fingers crossed. I hope. I'm. I'm. That was definitely. I spent a lot more time explaining things. There were some things that I realized in hindsight, I just had given up on trying to explain last time that I actually put the work into trying to explain this time. So I hope it worked.

A (65:27)

I think it. I think it does. And Chanda will be back on Wednesday, May 27, for our book club discussion of lonely crowds. So make sure you get your copy so you can read with us and discuss with us. And you know, this book, it's not. It's not a sciency book per se. It's. It's a friendship novel. And I'm really excited to get to read it with you because I'm sure you're gonna find. I'm sure there's gonna be like some sciency scene or something, and we're gonna end up talking about quarks or something. Well, there's also.

B (65:55)

I mean, it's an art world book too, right? And so there's a lot of overlap with academia there. So I kind of of came at it like, maybe there's a dark academia element to this.

A (66:06)

I'm excited. It was on our top 10 books of 2025. MJ put it on the list from the New York Times. So I'm also excited. I always love when we read one of those books the next year. So it's I think it's going to be great. Chanta, thank you so much.

B (66:19)

Thank you for having me and everyone else.

A (66:21)

We will see you in the Stacks. Thank you all so much for listening. And thank you again to Chanda Prescott Weinstein for joining the show. I'd also like to say a huge thank you to Rose Cronin Jackman for helping to make this episode possible. Our book club pick for May is Lonely Crowds by Stephanie Wambugu, and we will be discussing the book on Wednesday, May 27 with Chanda Prescott Weinstein. If you like this podcast, if you want a little more bookish fun in your life, subscribe to the Stack Pack on patreon@patreon.com the stacks and check out my newsletter at Tracy thomas.substack.com make sure you're subscribed to the Stacks wherever you listen to your podcast. And if you're listening through Apple Podcasts or Spotify, take one moment right now, do it now, and leave us a rating and a review. It helps people find the show, it helps people understand what they're getting, and it helps get the word out about this podcast. Please leave us a review. All right, for more from the Stacks, you can follow us on social media at the Stacks Pod, on Instagram threads, and now YouTube. And you can check out our website. It's thestaxpodcast.com this episode of the Stacks was edited by Christian Duenas. We got production assistance from the great Sahara Clement and additional support was provided by Cherie Marquez. And our theme music is from Tagirijis. The Stax is created and produced by me, Tracy Thomas. Foreigners always rise to the occasion for summer vacation planning because early gets you

B (67:54)

closer to the action. So don't be late.

A (67:57)

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